September 15, 2025 • 51 mins
Helen Delaney first went viral when police smashed the window of her car. She is a sovereign citizen who has spent years causing danger to Scott Murrin’s family. From putting trackers on his kids and hiring security for his wedding to years in court, Scott joins Gary Jubelin to share the insane lengths Helen - the mother of his children - has gone to alongside other sovereign citizens.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
Welcome back to Part two of them My chat with
Scott Murren. In part one, Scott told us about the
way his life was turned upside down following his separation
from his partner Helen Delaney. Helen, who had been caught
up in the idological beliefs of a sovereign citizen movement
and was co founder of Namdaka Dahlia Australias also known
(01:07):
as NDA, a radical anti government organization that is aligned
with the Sovereign Citizen movement. In Part two, we discuss
Helen's criminal charges and how they affected Scott and his family.
We talk about the fake warrant served on Scott demanding
him to surrender his two sons and also submit himself
for arrest, and how failure to comply would result in
(01:29):
life imprisonment and hard labor. Now, if that sounds like
a jake, it's actually what happened to Scott and what
he went through. Scott tells us what happened when the
matter finally hits the courts, and we also talk in
general about the Sovereign Citizen movement. I think what you'll
hear us talking about you'll find quite concerning. It is
a worry. Scott Murran, Welcome back to part two of Ketchkillers.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I'm still trying to digest what you've been through with
the battles with your ex part. So we were talking
about all the attempts they had to I suppose unnerve
you in a way where there's ava orders out that
Helen stay within a five hundred meter exclusion zone, obvious
(02:16):
breaches of that, different things that have occurred, and then
it got to the point where the police have said, Okay,
enough's enough. You've talked about twenty seven I think you
said they're about incidents of where contact has been made
to the police of concerns for welfare for your kids,
which resulted in police turning up and checking on the welfare.
(02:38):
It's chaotic and this is all you've seen the changes
in Helen when she's been involved in the movement. Movement.
You even had what I would loosely term a warrant
served on you. I had a look at the document
or four pages of the document, and it was described
in an article by the ABC described this the lago
(03:02):
an official looking letter was unfamiliar, but even before opening it,
Scott knew who it came from. Beneath and modo that
read do no harm. The warrant demanded he surrender his
two sons to court sheriffs and submit himself for arrest.
A failure to comply, it read, would result in life
imprisonment with hard labor. The document was sent to Scott
(03:22):
in March by a group calling itself the nam Dhaka
Dali Australias DA, a radical anti government organization that is
aligned with Sovereign Citizen movement, So talk me through this
like this, yeah, and I'm sorry I jump in before
I It had was signed off by a supposed judge
(03:44):
law off. It was a stamp, like an official stamp
on the document. It was set up to look like
an official document. It's not worth the paper it was
written on. But to the uneducated or ill informed, you're thinking,
what's this?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah? Well, you know that kicked me up another gear
because I was like, okay, here there now admitting that
they're going to try and take my children. There was
individual arrest warrants within that naming both my boys, and
it said you know that they can take one or
both of those boys and return them to the custody
(04:18):
of the mother. It was served on me by a
process server, I found out.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Later official process service, an official one.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And then whilst I was doing an arisp video with
police about how I received it and whatever, I was
actually called by the judge of the fake court, the
so called judge, the so called judge, and asked, you know,
do you understand what you have to do? And all
the rest of it. We'd looked up where I was
supposed to deliver the children and it was a rural
(04:49):
property in somewhere near Gimpi. I made inquiries myself into
who owned that property and he had form. So yeah,
number one, there was no chance I was going to
do that. But it then again kicked me up a
gear in saying, you know they're going to work in
(05:09):
company to try and come and get my boys.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, the document, there was a lot of work that's
gone into create a document like that, So that would
cause concern to start with, I would imagine whoever's sitting
there planning this, there was a lot of gobblygook that's
a legal term for it. Was just it was crap.
I was trying to dissect it. And if they're trying
to set it up to look like an official warrant,
that was clearly someone that wasn't o fay with a
(05:34):
proper legal person. But what was concerning is the amount
of effort they've gone to to do that and the
concern what I would imagine the concern were you sort
of what stage were you at in your battles, because
it was a battle that you're going to go to
war this group.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, I had to put it bluntly, I was ready
to go to war.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, So you've taken that to the police, and why
you're there. You get a phone call from the supposed judge.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yep. The police identified themselves, you know, made the person
aware that it was being recorded.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
That's beautiful yep.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And you know I thought old mate would just hang up,
but he didn't, you know, he just said, you know
what you have to do. He kept reiterating that. I
remember one of the officers getting pretty heated in demanding
he say who he is, and I think at the
end I called him a fucking flop. He hung up
the phone.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
That would be concerning in that someone that irrational, the
way that they're carrying on, Like I described as irrational,
someone might describe it in another way. But there's an arrogance,
there's an entitlement, and I find that quite quite creepy.
There people that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And I use another word. I think there's intent. You know,
there's there's an intent there to cause fear, as an
intent there to tell me they're coming to take my children.
And I would say I'm not. You know, I've become
paralegal through this whole thing. That's another hat of ad
to wear that with that intent and putting that sending
that stuff to me is conspiracy to kidnap children.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Minus how do you explain to your kids their mother
was watching them or yeah, you can call it stalking,
whether it's amounts of stalking, but how did you explain
to them that the mother's keeping an eye on them?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's difficult.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I don't imagine.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
My youngest son was under the impression that she'd moved
back into the area, something that I probably didn't mention before.
He always used to say, he stops saying it now,
but he used to say, she'll never give up. You know,
he'd heard things when he was staying in those camps
and things like, you know, we'll go through their doors
(07:50):
and stuff like that. That's stuck in his head. So yeah,
it's difficult to explain to him, you know, I just
I just have to say these things are going on
and hopefully that they'll change in the future for you.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's a hard conversation. Was the younger son that was
also sprouting ideology.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
At school, Yeah, mainly ideologies about scomo h Scott Morrison
and you know, my body, my rules, you know, stay
away from the jab, all that sort of stuff. But
apparently was standing up and sort of announcing it to
his school, Yeah, classroom.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, that's yeah, well that's clearly the impact that hanging
around with that group has had on him to come
out like that. I need to make it very clear
we're not suggesting all sovereign citizens are capable of committing
such horrendous crimes or Helen then the nam Daka Dahlia Australias,
(08:50):
which is the Sovereign Citizen group.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
It was a group that she formed, yes, yeah, that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
She formed for that matter of linked or would carry
out crimes of that nature. But look at the two shoes,
the two shootings in Queensland and Victoria of police carrying
out their duties and people identify or aligned with sovereign citizens,
and it's quite scary, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that people feel like they can take
their ideology to that level, you know, frightening young children,
frightening people that were caring for my young children. You know,
it's another part of it. They're worried about the other
children at that school, which come into play when we
(09:32):
had school excursions.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And I was thinking when you were talking about the
protections that were put in place for your children's friends
and also at school and if I was a parent
of the friends or parents of the other kids at school,
i'd be worried.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, might I actually put in my own disclaimer because
I would expect other parents to do that to me.
But if my son was going to have a sleepover,
which he didn't for a long time, the first thing
I would do, and that's both of my sons, was say,
you know, this is what's going on in our lives,
and I will totally understand if you don't want my
(10:09):
children at your heart.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So you were up front the yeah, because.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I don't want to be dragging other people into my mess.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
You know, I think I think that's fair enough. Did
you have community support why this was going on in
the in the area that you were living, Because that's
the other thing. Your privacy has just been blowing. Why
that opens Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So when we get back to that DV thing, you know,
one of the things I guess as a man, as
you feel vulnerable saying that we're you know, we're being
impacted by domestic violence. So I got to a stage
where I was like, you know, a lot of this
stuff's happening from keyboards. Yes, they were making approaches and
things like that, but I'm going to drag them out
(10:51):
into the public. This is not when we discussed it
as a family. This is not a dirty little secret
that I'm going to keep because that protects them. What
I've learned is, you know that didn't inflicts domestic violence
against you. They want to silence you, they want to
control you. Well, I took that away the moment I
started to discuss it with people. I encourage my children
(11:12):
to discuss it with their friends, with their friends' parents,
and speak openly about what was going on in their lives.
We did this with their school counselors. They both say,
regular school counselors and school principles. You know, I had
multiple meetings and the support I received in return was overwhelming.
(11:34):
Yeah that Yes, it's okay for your children still to
be at the school.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's good. People can understand what you were going through.
So how did the matter actually get to court? When
did it get to court? And I'm talking the criminal
court here.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Not so Helen had eight warrants.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Arrest warrants for each individual breach.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Of the avy, different things.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think initially it was some extra charges
of intimidation. Yes, well yeah, okay, so they had eight warrants.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Out there, so at the time I became a bit
of a pain in the ass. I guess is a
polite way to put it to the cops. I started
to write letters and provide information for my own investigations
into senior police's pigeonholes. I worked out that was part
of the system. I'd hand it over at the police
(12:27):
station and say, this is not a complaint, this is
just some information I wanted to hand on to this person.
But I'd see it and put that person's name on there,
and I'm talking some fairly high ranking police. I went
and spoke to the local members a number of times
and just was like, what actually became a marker for
me was they do this thing called Operation Amarok. So
(12:49):
each time Operation Amarock happened, they'd say, oh, we've got
six hundred of the state's most serious offenders and lock
them up and that sort.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Of thing warrants out for them.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And every time that would happen, I do the little
mailbox drop and say, how come you didn't get helen
to Looney Scott.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I if you've and I know you're listener to the
podcast and people have heard me say I support doing
that type of thing, mate, And you're not being critical
of police, but you're just putting police on notice that
you expect the job to be done and they're there
is to serve the public and you're a member of
the public and this person is causing you a lot
of angst, and so make people accountable. So great strategy.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, so I was pretty diligent in that.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
You can say obsessive diligence probably sounds better.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
But I used the metaphor that I was sprinkling breadcrumbs
across your desk.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I was just diligent. Yeah, sometimes you've got to be.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I had a lot of people gary that were like
moved moved on, or that's what I was told, not
in this division anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That that that's a problem and it's not anyone to blame.
But with police rotating through and someone's for me with
the case that's been dragged on for years, and then
all that knowledge is left and yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So I even got to the point where I walked
in to one of the stations with a coffee. I
sat down on the chair and I said, I'm here
to see the boss. Do you have an appointment? No,
I don't. He's busy, I said, We'll tell him. I
like lots of coffee, So when this one runs out,
I'll get a coffee and I'm going to come back.
And you know, eventually got somebody come and said, mate,
(14:25):
what do you want? Yeah, and I said, the breadcrumbs
have just been sprinkled over your desk at your rank.
So I want her court. I want this stopped. I've
put up with enough makes sense? Yeah, yeah, so that's
what I hadened.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Like you mentioned the figures eight warrants. But if someone's
they've got their warrants and their apprehension warrants, you can
apprehend the person they should be served. You can't just
let them keep building it up. That gives them a
false confidence in it.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And remembering that I probably haven't mentioned this, but every
person in this case that has gone back against talent,
so whether it had been an arresting officer, judge, my lawyers,
everybody has received the sovereign citizen treatment the moment their
names are identified in our case, so bombarded with paperwork, emails,
(15:15):
phone calls. Let's catch Skillstone, it's coming, gar yeah, trust me,
it's coming, all right.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, So you've got to the point where you're pushing
the police. There's a number of warrants for her apprehension,
and then she's being caught that video we showed where
the roadside stopped. That wasn't this time, but that was.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That was the time, that was early in the piece.
That was And then I believe she had the High
Risk Domestic Violence of Vendor team both the Northern and
Southern Region looking for her, and I believe, yeah, they
end up getting out of a roadside traffic stop. Again,
that same gentleman was in the car. And another disclaimer,
those videos are filmed by the person and that's how
(16:01):
they make their way on the internet. Not doing it.
He's made any favors at all, Yeah, publicly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So's it's crazy world, isn't it. It really is the
crazy world. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And I'm told when she was arrested she was and
you know, I heard secondhand, but she had like six
IDs on.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
A court matter. I've went through the transcripts. I had
access to the transcripts. I think about one hundred and
fifty pages of it, and I was getting a headache
reading through it. I just can't imagine what it would
have been like. You've been involved in the court matter
and the scene it go on, and the I'll say,
(16:40):
a logical way that she would respond to some questions
and the pain and the obstructive manner in which she
went through court to give you, to give you an
example when she has been sworn in to give evidence.
So she's asked if us to identify herself, and this
is from the transcripts, and so it's public record. Good.
This is Helen's answer.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So I'm Helen. That's my name my mother and father
gave me. And that's the only name I consent to.
I don't consent to any further additional names on top
of that, because I understand them to be crowned copyright assets. Okay, well,
that was just being sworn in. Can you tell me
your name? That was the answer when the magistrate asked
(17:24):
her if she knows why she's here. This is what
she said. I can't actually say yes to that, your honor, respectfully.
First of all, as this court accepted yesterday the United
Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People, I have
made extensive efforts over five years. I've been self determined
and self governed. Scott and I managed to separate the
(17:46):
familiar properties. I left home of violence, evidence by police reports,
and I'm self determined and self governing. So no, I
do not understand why I'm here today when this document
United Nations Declaration of Rights of Indigenous People says that
I have a right to self determine and self government.
I consider that I'm here because I've been forcibly joined,
(18:08):
forced assimilated into this situation that we're in today. I'm
getting a headache even yeah, yeah, going through it. Alen
was asked by the prosecutor about the AVA before her
that was the subject of and this is what this
is what she responded to that. So this is the
apprehend violence order that was clearly in front of her,
(18:31):
and she was asked a question about it, and this
is her answer. No, I are abut all assumptions, presumptions
and allegations against me, and being subject to these orders
would mean unlawful conversion between Helen and the legal fiction
that is Helen Delaney, which I do not consent to.
And I do not agree to be the trustee. I
do not agree to be the co trustee. I do
(18:53):
not consent to anyone administering on the trust were you
were you in the court at the time when this
was going on.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
So through DV they give it the option to sit
in a separate room, which is what happened for my wife.
I determined I was going to be in that courtroom
and look her in the eye and say what you've
done is not right, and I'm the line. You won't
be getting past this line. So and.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Just in reference to those answers to very simple, straightforward
questions which could have been answered yes or no, or
just provide the name, this is the narrative that she
continued on with yes during during the hearing, right through it,
and she represented herself. Yes, she had a court appointed
questioner to help her facilitate questions.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Even that poor bugger was shaking his head.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
And here we are a court that's set up that
still got to offer her her rights and provide all
the assistance to it that's required. But clearly, I'd say,
and this is not a technical term, she's just taking
the piss out of the court.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yes, it's what they do. They don't recognize the authority
of the court, so they run it the way they
want to run it, and it all it does is
clog the courts which were already clogged. Hence why you know,
four years after this started we get to our final hearing.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So four years from the start start pretty much, that's
how long. It's how long it's.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
That's how long it took to get justice. Well, that
was the hearing, and then of course she appealed. She
dragged the appeal out in terms of not showing up,
wanting to do it via video link on her own terms,
this sort of stuff, and the court sort of tolerate
it to a point. And then she was told she
had to be there to her appeal and because on
(20:42):
the day she didn't turn up and it was dismissed.
But that's what they do. They like to waste the
court's time.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
And been wasting the court's time. It's wasting public funds.
It is just a drain on society.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
And you know, I can't tell you how many visits
to court I've had, but it's in the tens of dozens.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Of appearances or just a mentioned.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Mansion, adjourned, moved forward.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, and you've got the magistrate, you've got the prosecutor who,
in my reading the transcripts, I think they both behave
themselves very well in that they gave it, gave her
enough latitude, but then just called her on it.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, there was stuff, allegations that I was in the
court to intimidate and do stuff like that. Gary. I
wore the same suit that I'm wearing today, my wedding suit.
I'll have one. I sat in the same seat in
line of view of the magistrate, and I didn't say
a word. I sat through the lot of it to
let the magistrate know I'm here to say it's not.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
On fully understand fully understand the need and why you'd
want to want to go in there. The end result
of the court matter is I understand that she was
convicted of breaching the AVO eleven counts.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, so originally charged with sixteen counts, with three counts
of store intimidate and I believe there was four bail,
failed to appear on bail or something like that, and
convicted of twelve of the sixteen and then convicted of
one of the intimidate and the breach of bails.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, Okay. She was in custody at the time the
court matter, so that she's been held in custody after
the arrest. I think sentenced to nine months, was it.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
No, it's a sentence to twelve months and then released
with time already served of four months for four to
five months, I think it was. And then we had
an instant appeal on that, so it wasn't going to
serve any more time, right.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Okay, well look won't we won't delve into the court,
the court side of it anymore. How did it make
you feel when the guilty verdict came down? It was
there any satisfaction or is it just mate go past that?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
What happened was there was only myself and some media
in the court. The emotion of that last four years
and the relief that you know, I was in this
for nothing more than protect my children and get justice
for them for what had happened to them. And I
(23:22):
don't know what got the better of me, but I
stood up when he said dismissed. I stood up and
yelled out justice for my boys. There the last three
words on the transcript, And yeah, I walked out, and
you know, shed a few tears. Was there was definitely
some relief, but like we do, we just sort of
(23:44):
get through that week and see what comes next week.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, you do you feel like it's in the past.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
No, No, I'm never going to stop watching these boys
until they're old enough and they move out of home
or whatever they do. Yeah, I've I've had some police officers,
more than one say to me, was my family, I'd
pick up and move to the other side of w A.
In fact, my response to that is I'm not committing
the offenses and that lets that person win. So I'm
(24:13):
not going anywhere. This is my family home, it's where
my children want to live. They've got their friends. We'll
go about life, but life will always be a little
different for us than the family next door.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Do you want to just tell me that without going
in the details or naming names. But you had to
get plus security, A plus one yeah, plus one security
plus one.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah. We just had a small family wedding and I
was made aware the day before the wedding. Had you
thought about security?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And I was like no, And that was even police
suggest Yeah. So, and look, I think that's a proper
role of police. That put the idea out me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah. And you know, when you think about getting married,
I was thinking, I hope it doesn't rain, you know,
I hope the bride's happy. I hope my best mate
doesn't get drunk and make a goose of himself. Not
do I need security there to prevent somebody ruining the
wedding just never cross my mind. So I had twenty
four hours to organize something, and yeah, I won't go
(25:20):
into too much detail, but.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I would describe it as you've got the friends slash
associate with the suitable skills to be security at the
wedding pretty much.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah. Yeah, and the guests sort of started to notice
that this is where the black humor comes in again,
I guess, but yeah, the guests noticed that, and we're
getting concerned, and I was like, oh, that's plus one.
You know that person that gets invited that's not on
the main role. It is what it is. It's our life,
(25:52):
and we're doing our best to get through it with
a smile on our dial. At the end, you're.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Gonna laugh, yeah, definitely, Otherwise you'd just be or angry
box of tissues. Yeah. Yeah, You've got to have that
middle ground and just see how stupid this whole situation
that's been for you. And certainly is there any restrictions
still in place like av.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
There's an AVO in place until twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Right, So you've got that form of protection. But as
as you've seen or demonstrated that that was only just
a bit of paper, piece of paper if someone's not
going to.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Buy Yeah, And while I've had a lot of community
support and it continues to this day, that was the
realization I come to, you know that the line that
I keep referring to between that the boys and what
could happen is me. So regardless of any outside help
or what the police can I can't offer, or what
(26:48):
the AVO says, I'm that line that says you're not
going past here. And that's just the way it's going
to be.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I'm thinking through because I've sat with people that have
had stalking situations and that we talk about ankle bracelets
on people that can't abide by the court in that
and I still promote it. I push it and push it.
I think it is the way of the future that
if you are stalking me, let's say you've offended enough
(27:17):
to the port where the courts have got to take action,
You've got an ankle bracelet on, and if you come
within five hundred meters of me or a clometer of me,
I get notified that you're in the area. And that
would give me some peace of mind. Yes, it's a
little bit different with your situation because it's not Helen
acting on our own. She's got these other people that
(27:40):
are quite obsessive. And when you see something like what's
happened in Victoria and what happened up in Queensland and
other situations, what goes through your mind.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I don't want to align myself. I don't know those families. Obviously,
my heart goes out to them. They will people just
doing their job. Yeah, you know, nobody deserves to be
have that happen to them at work. Yeah, we do.
I don't live in fear. I live in readiness. That's
something I want to make very clear that I've had
a lot of time to prepare myself mentally for what's
(28:14):
going on. And like I said to you, I'm prepared
to open up the gates the hell and drag them
inside Gary if I have to. That's that's just how
it has to be. So watch this space. I guess
we can't live a normal life, then we'll live life
on our terms as best we can.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
You shouldn't. And look, I'm looking you in the eyes
and I can see you mean what you say one.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I'm not a person that makes threats. You know,
I said to you, my children did not choose for
this to be in their life, for this to happen.
The rabbit hole gets tossed around a lot, but essentially
that's what's happened. Their mother's gone down the rabbit hole,
and she's dragged the whole lot of us down there
with her. And I'll do whatever I can to let
(29:00):
my children have a normal life.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Was there any in all the ongoing disputes, whether it
be in the civil or criminal, was there any suggestion
of mental health issues? Did that ever come in?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I've been asked that multiple times, But like I'm not
a psychologist. My answer to that when people ask me
that is a mental health break or something you know,
I would would think can be temporary to do something
like this. This has been long sustained, planned, you know, actioned.
(29:36):
So yeah, I probably say in my opinion, I can't
speak on behalf of Helen Delaney, but I would say
that she knows exactly what she's doing. What I would
say if she ever listens to this is her children
wanted to stop. They don't want to live their lives
like this. They don't want their mother not to be
in their lives. They just wanted to stop the behavior.
(29:58):
You know, if you want to throw your life away,
you throw it away. But remember that that that there's
children in this and those children having their lives thrown
away by your actions.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
That's an important message. And if there's any thing that
comes out of it, if she is listening, and it
surprised me if she doesn't, if she hears about it,
that that that is a very strong.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Message and it's the truth.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
What what have you learned about the group?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
The ND A lot scary? Ye, I've got a large file.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, is anything the public that you can share?
I don't you know, we're not picking the fight here,
but that I.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Think, no, no, No.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Part of it is that people have got to understand
what these groups are about. We as we talked about
at the start of the podcast, we sort of looked
at these groups of a bit of a bit of humor.
It was a bit funny someone seceding from the Commonwealth
and all that. But it's gone a lot further.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, and and and it continually morphs into something else.
So once they become exposed as what they are, they
change the group, they move, they change the name of
the group. There's a lot of the same players within
that group. They do this thing where they call themselves
(31:20):
like the chap they're looking for at the moment, DESI
Freedom not his surname. You know, they change their names.
They hide behind keyboards. A lot of them they talk
in secret chat rooms. You know, what I would say
to them is you don't know who's within those chat rooms,
who's documenting what you're saying, who's happy to drag you
(31:42):
out in the public and say this is what you're doing.
And I'm referring to Helen Delaney there. I don't want
to pick a fight with the rest of them. I
got enough on me blate, But what I would say
is whatever you want to call yourself or whatever you
want to hide behind, what you're doing is not okay.
And there's members of the community they are prepared to
get into your groups and exposure of who you.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Are again a good message. But I think it's a
reasonable assumption for him to make too that the police
are going to be spending a lot more time looking
at looking at these groups now, not because of what's
we're talking about here, but the things that have played
out in Victoria and Queensland, that there will be some
further attention. A big question that you might have an answer,
(32:28):
but you know, something like what happened in Victoria? Do
you see this as predictable when you're watching the narrative
on the keyboards.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
That's a big call to answer that, you know. I
don't know how to answer that, Garry. To be honest,
what I would say is, there's all sorts of people
within these groups. Yeah, and if you go online now
there's grubs out there celebrating what happened down there in Victoria,
(32:59):
which is just disgraceful. And I think that the possibility
for things further things to happen certainly well on the cards,
you can't rule that out.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I'm not sure if we covered it. But the dressing
up in the sheriff's uniforms or the fake sheriff's uniforms
tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah. So they become aware that they are on a
bit of a recruitment drive, and them darker Nda as
we refer to them, they hide a bus like the
government bus, as you say, they put a large stick
to the other side of that bus, and they were
going through small groups and towns basically putting their message
(33:38):
out there and recruiting members. I think at one stage
we had numbers of around one hundred and fifty. Some
of those people are just vulnerable people that may have
lost their children in custody battles, that may have had
their family home taken off them, may not have agreedble
what happened during COVID, that sort of thing, and they
(33:59):
get caught up in this and it's cult like, you know,
they preach to them. They have formed their own little
Sheriff's thing. I believe it's something that's come from the
States as well. They wear body cameras, they had beige
akubra hats on. I nearly attacked a bloke that knocked
on my front door that I saw approach on the
(34:20):
cameras who was a Jehovah's witness that just happened to
be wearing a BII shirt and a beije akubra. You know,
that's where that's how heightened I am. I think it's
silly them running around in the uniforms. But what I
would say is we need to stop talking about them
being silly. They're a group and they're acting in company
(34:43):
and they're organized and they hold their meetings, and some
of those members do stupid things that they can't take back.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
And you touched on there that attracts vulnerable people, and
that's yeah, that is very much a cult.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Cult sit and there's always a grift. So that grift
these people need to fund their lifestyle of not working
and being productive members of the community. So they're always
looking to sell you an idea or a story. So
you know, don't drive with a driver's license by one
of ours. Yeah, put your fake name on there, but
you've got to buy it off them.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And with the social media and that, you can go
down the rabbit hole too, can't you. And ideologies, and
I think this is a concern that you get into
an algorithm that you're looking on social media your ideology,
how way out it might or might not be. You've
got all these people who are telling you the same thing,
so you can see how people get sucked into it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, and vulnerable people get drawn into a group that's saying, listen,
we can help you get your kids back, we can
help you do this, and they feel a part of something,
you know, and then they're in bolden to do more
than they normally would.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And one invariably one person taking advantage of the vulnerable
people in.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
There and steering and who's always agreement.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
In a direction. Prepping for this podcast just got me
interested in the whole sovereign citizen movement and a little
bit of research there and just a couple of things
that we might open up to discussion. We're not talking
about the NDA now, We're not talking about Helen. This
is just a general discussion about sovereign citizen movement in Australia,
(36:23):
so a summary of it. We've talked enough about it now,
But in Australia is part of a broader global movement
that claims individuals can declare themselves independent from government authority
and law. Proponents of this movement believe that they are
sovereign individuals who are not subject to the laws of
the state, often rejecting legal systems, taxation, and government regulations.
(36:47):
That sort of sums up the narrative. They've sort of
sit separate. We're stepping away.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Something you missed there, Gary is they don't reject the
dole payment.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Well, I will get to that because I've got in
in my notes here of just the hypocrisy of their ideology,
but we'll talk talk about that, but in key beliefs
that's breaken down in the common law. The use of
common law. Common law is something that's happened in the past.
That's what we base our laws on, the common law,
(37:17):
not the statute law that we have here. Self identification
anti government sentiment that seems to be and the research
I looked at by no means an expert, but it
sort of came from the US during covert power and
the push, and I think that people are brought into
it what we went with. All the lockdowns are here
(37:39):
in the country. Say that sort of got a little
bit of momentum.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And there's a rich market if you're looking for supporters.
I was. I can't tell you how many pubs I've
sat in and bashing up the Polly's as part of
the conversation somewhere, so it's not hard to find.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Well, we'll just show that we don't disagree with everything
that the sovereign citizen. But you've got to keep it
in perspective. But those lockdowns were ridiculous when they put
the nine pm curfew on. Where was a medical evidence
or scientific fact that a nine pm curfew is going
to help reduce the spread of COVID.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, try and try starting a new relationship during that
when you live three hours apart.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, I yeah, it's not a hard narrative to buy into,
is it. Like it's easy to.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
And a slippery slope. But you get dragged in and
you start to believe the stuff and before you know it,
your life's going.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You're caught up in it. Court and legal systems challenges.
They rely on the court system to some degree, like
they want all the benefits of the court system when
it suits them, but then they don't want to acknowledge
the court system when it doesn't or our legal system,
which I think is a strange thing. Conspiracy theories. When
(38:53):
you've got people that got an ideology and they're on
the extreme, it's easy to dangle a conspiracy the governm.
It's working against you. This is happening. All police are
this and you can see.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
How Yeah, planning microchips in your brain through Cranbridge juice.
I've read it all.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it might buy in the one
or two people and then you've got oh, well he
agrees with me, Scott's agreeing with what I've said, And
then it escalates from there. So wonder and again this
is not picking a fight with sovereign citizens, but I
just hear hypocrisy of the ideology, so rejection of government
(39:31):
authority versus dependence on services. So you were talking about
the welfare payments that we don't respect the government but
wears our welfare payment.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Even driving on public roads, you know, they're not driving
on them, they're traveling on them either way. You're using
the public road.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
That because I picked up on that not driving, we're traveling.
Because my argument would be, well, you don't agree with
the paying the taxes and all that, you're using the
for abilities, but they're traveling, they're not.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
That's right. That's how they get around that. And the
vehicle is horsepowered, so it goes back to horse drawn vehicle.
It's yeah, I don't know what more can I say.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
It's difficult looking at utilizing public infrastructure. I suppose that
we're talking roads, we're talking public transport, we're talking about
the medical system or the health healthcare system. Legal challenges
versus legal protections, selective acceptance of laws. That seems to
be very much something there. They like when it suits them,
(40:37):
grab hold of.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
It and selective versions of the truth, you know, cherry
pick what they want out of the argument, but don't
don't use facts.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Well, I suppose we could pick apart the ideology in
a lot of ways. But seeing how you've experienced it,
and we're not putting you up as the expert on
sovereign sovereign but in your personal experience, you've had to
have a look at it. Do you think do you
see these type of ideologies and groups rising or do
(41:10):
you think I.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Tell you, yeah, that I'm no expert, but I can
tell you the numbers of rising purely by being in
the groups and monitoring what you know, the stuff that's
related to us. Yeah, I've seen that grow exponentially, and
you know, hopefully the government is watching and taking some
(41:32):
action because they need to put a lid on this
pot before it boils. That's what I say.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Looking back at what you've gone through, do you think
there's any way you could have put a circuit breaker
in this and not letther escalate it to the manner
in which it did.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Now, I think what you had, and I've thought about
that a lot, is two parents, you know, fighting over
the kids, and you add into it the complexities of
what's been involved in our case, and it just there's
no way on back and down. I can assure you,
like I've said many times, and I assume Helen Delaney
(42:15):
will be the same. So it's where does it stop.
I don't know where it stops, but I know I'm
prepared to be in it for the long haul, and
coming on and speaking to you about it is to
let them know that you're not going to silence me,
You're not going to intimidate me. What you're doing is wrong,
and I'm going to stand in front of that. You know.
(42:36):
And I don't say that in relation to the whole
sovereign citizen thing. I say in relation to my children.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Well, I think and I'm looking at Yeah, the way
you've handled it all the way through, it was conciliatory,
like fifty to fifty to start with, It wasn't. She
was all the blame. That type of separation, that was
you went your separate ways, different life goals, and then
it's just gone bad.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
And you know, I'll go as far as to say this, Gary,
somebody said to me that all children deserve a mother. Unfortunately,
not all mothers deserve their children. That's what we're at.
You know. That's that's where this I don't know if
there's much more I can say on it. That's that's
they said that to me, this person, and it's it
(43:19):
rings true for me.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's how do you how do you think your your
children have been impacted by what's gone on?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Hugely, hugely. Part of doing this also, and I've only
spoken to select me, is my children are going to
at the moment, they're looking at this through the lens
of children. Okay, at some stage they're going to be fathers,
they're going to be adults, and when that happens, they'll
(43:48):
look at this very differently. Not having their mother in
their life is not easy. I'll say that. But what
I want out there is, you know, you've seen the
window smash thing. I think they've had twelve million hits. Okay,
there's a lot of other stuff on the Internet that
they've already seen about their mother, and they have kids
(44:08):
talk say stuff to them about it. It is hard.
They've been very lucky. They've got really supportive mates and
the parents and that. But what I will say is
that I want to put a version there so that
they can see there's another side. To this, there's always
two versions in an argument. When their fathers and their
(44:28):
grown adults, which is not that far down the track
for them, they'll be able to look back and see
that their father made the decisions he made based on
what was going on at the time, that they can't
change I can't change what happened in their life, and
that I did everything in my bloody power to protect
them from what was going on in their life.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, I don't think there can be any argument there.
What about you personally?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
The impact I might have aged in dog years you
lost your hair old phlossiphy hair. I think that started
when I was sixteen, Gary. But yeah, it's taken a
huge toll on myself, on Karen and Karen.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
And give reference to Karen. Karen's your wife. She's come
here and in the conversations are very supportive of what
you've gone through. That must have been mate.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
She without Karen or she has been rock solid. She's
had to step into something that most I think partners.
I think even if I was put in the same situation, Gary,
out Jesus, if.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I looked at you on paper, I'd be running the mile. Karen,
what's together there? What did you see any.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I think I think what I would have done was
say I'm ducking down a pub for a beer and
maybe not come. Yeah. So yeah, I'm very extremely lucky
that she's been there through all of this and continues
to this day to do that. She's been that voice
of reason for the boys as well. I don't think
she'll mind me saying that. You know, the boys are
(45:59):
sort of grieving. I use this term. They're grieving the
loss of somebody that hasn't died.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, it's so difficult for the kids. It must be, really.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
And you imagine the responsibility Garrey, that comes with being
a part of you know, taking action, that's that's brought
that about it. It's huge. I don't underestimate that at all.
But I've done what I've done to protect my children.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Well, I suppose that's that's got to be the priority,
hasn't it.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
That's the number one priority above all else my own health,
you know, my finances, everything. The children are the number
one priority. If they had two parents that were doing that,
we wouldn't burn this mess something. You know, somebody said
to me the other day, who's been along this journey
with us? You guys need a holiday. If I ever
(46:48):
won lot, i'd send you guys on a holiday. I said,
that's nice, but it's going to have to burn Australia
because something we didn't mention along the way is that
I had to put a port block in on both
of the boys as there was other people overseas and
there was a concern that that may happen.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Sorry, and that was your concern that they might be
grabbed and then facilitated overseas.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yeah, well she currently held their passports at the time,
so that made that a very real prospect. We had
to cost a fair bit of money and time to
get that put in place. But unfortunately along where that
comes the fact I can't take them out of the
country either, So no VG holiday for us at the moment.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It's recommend Darwin. I always like going to dar.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I don't do heat, Gary, I don't do heat Sen
head off down the Tasmania and Karen will probably too.
I don't do planes, so they'd have to sedate me.
So I don't do holidays. Yeah. Yeah, the boys and
I have gotten into I had a hobby of keeping
Koi fish Japanese fish, right, Yeah, and that's that's been
(48:03):
one of the saviors for the boys. That's a nice
peaceful it's a very peaceful balance. And Yang is the
and Yang Yeah, yeah, believe you do? Is it chign Yeah, yeah, yeah,
you were staring into the pond gives me the same thing.
And we're currently sort of doing our best to go
from what they call pondfish up to showfish. A lot
(48:25):
of time, effort, money goes into it, but it, yeah,
it gives back. That's our relaxation.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
That's I'm glad you're get in some balance because you've
been through a tough time.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah, it's been different.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Well, look, I think and your kids are going to
look at this. You've you've handled it like you would
expect a father to handle handle the situation. I think
that that'll come across as they get older, they get
they're in that awkward age now where they're like strangers.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Anyway, No, I'm very lucky, Gary. I don't know if
this has brought that bond closer, like I'm men the
tummy time. But both of my boys tell me they
love me every day. That my oldest son is not
afraid to say it in front of his like you know,
they're on the phone. They call you. He says, love
your dad. They say that in front of their mates.
(49:17):
They're not afraid to hug me at the school in
front of their mates, and that bond is strong and
I'm very lucky to have that. So with everything that's
going on, they can't take that away from me.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Well, it's great. That sounds like you're teaching good, good
young man.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I hope they will turn out that way.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yeah, well, look, thank you for coming on, coming on,
I catch killers. As I said at the start, you
probably prefer just listening to.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
It, whether they ever dreamed I was going to be
on here.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Here is a guest. But look, a lot of important
messages you put out. You've given me a greater understanding
of a potential era that was dismissed as a joke.
But now we've got to take it more seriously. And
also giving a male perspective of when domestic situations go bad,
because invariably it's we're hearing from the woman's perspective. And
(50:08):
I think it's interesting hearing the man talk about it.
It does take an emotional toll. You're sitting there stoic,
and you got through it, but I can see the pain.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
See it in my eyes, mate, there's Yeah, it does
take a toll, yeah, but it's important that blokes out there,
you know, that are gone through I dare say there's
not many going through my situation. Yeah, but I dare
say there's blokes out there to listen to this that
are going through their own situation. All I would say
(50:41):
is that the one denominated that doesn't change is that
they're your kids. So you might be prevented prevented from
seeing them in the short term. Play the long game.
Those kids will come out of being children and become adults,
and they're going to need a father, you know, So
play the long game and step.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Up with greater dice and we might leave it there.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Thanks mate, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Cheers
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
Welcome back to Part two of them My chat with
Scott Murren. In part one, Scott told us about the
way his life was turned upside down following his separation
from his partner Helen Delaney. Helen, who had been caught
up in the idological beliefs of a sovereign citizen movement
and was co founder of Namdaka Dahlia Australias also known
(01:07):
as NDA, a radical anti government organization that is aligned
with the Sovereign Citizen movement. In Part two, we discuss
Helen's criminal charges and how they affected Scott and his family.
We talk about the fake warrant served on Scott demanding
him to surrender his two sons and also submit himself
for arrest, and how failure to comply would result in
(01:29):
life imprisonment and hard labor. Now, if that sounds like
a jake, it's actually what happened to Scott and what
he went through. Scott tells us what happened when the
matter finally hits the courts, and we also talk in
general about the Sovereign Citizen movement. I think what you'll
hear us talking about you'll find quite concerning. It is
a worry. Scott Murran, Welcome back to part two of Ketchkillers.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I'm still trying to digest what you've been through with
the battles with your ex part. So we were talking
about all the attempts they had to I suppose unnerve
you in a way where there's ava orders out that
Helen stay within a five hundred meter exclusion zone, obvious
(02:16):
breaches of that, different things that have occurred, and then
it got to the point where the police have said, Okay,
enough's enough. You've talked about twenty seven I think you
said they're about incidents of where contact has been made
to the police of concerns for welfare for your kids,
which resulted in police turning up and checking on the welfare.
(02:38):
It's chaotic and this is all you've seen the changes
in Helen when she's been involved in the movement. Movement.
You even had what I would loosely term a warrant
served on you. I had a look at the document
or four pages of the document, and it was described
in an article by the ABC described this the lago
(03:02):
an official looking letter was unfamiliar, but even before opening it,
Scott knew who it came from. Beneath and modo that
read do no harm. The warrant demanded he surrender his
two sons to court sheriffs and submit himself for arrest.
A failure to comply, it read, would result in life
imprisonment with hard labor. The document was sent to Scott
(03:22):
in March by a group calling itself the nam Dhaka
Dali Australias DA, a radical anti government organization that is
aligned with Sovereign Citizen movement, So talk me through this
like this, yeah, and I'm sorry I jump in before
I It had was signed off by a supposed judge
(03:44):
law off. It was a stamp, like an official stamp
on the document. It was set up to look like
an official document. It's not worth the paper it was
written on. But to the uneducated or ill informed, you're thinking,
what's this?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah? Well, you know that kicked me up another gear
because I was like, okay, here there now admitting that
they're going to try and take my children. There was
individual arrest warrants within that naming both my boys, and
it said you know that they can take one or
both of those boys and return them to the custody
(04:18):
of the mother. It was served on me by a
process server, I found out.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Later official process service, an official one.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And then whilst I was doing an arisp video with
police about how I received it and whatever, I was
actually called by the judge of the fake court, the
so called judge, the so called judge, and asked, you know,
do you understand what you have to do? And all
the rest of it. We'd looked up where I was
supposed to deliver the children and it was a rural
(04:49):
property in somewhere near Gimpi. I made inquiries myself into
who owned that property and he had form. So yeah,
number one, there was no chance I was going to
do that. But it then again kicked me up a
gear in saying, you know they're going to work in
(05:09):
company to try and come and get my boys.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, the document, there was a lot of work that's
gone into create a document like that, So that would
cause concern to start with, I would imagine whoever's sitting
there planning this, there was a lot of gobblygook that's
a legal term for it. Was just it was crap.
I was trying to dissect it. And if they're trying
to set it up to look like an official warrant,
that was clearly someone that wasn't o fay with a
(05:34):
proper legal person. But what was concerning is the amount
of effort they've gone to to do that and the
concern what I would imagine the concern were you sort
of what stage were you at in your battles, because
it was a battle that you're going to go to
war this group.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, I had to put it bluntly, I was ready
to go to war.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, So you've taken that to the police, and why
you're there. You get a phone call from the supposed judge.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yep. The police identified themselves, you know, made the person
aware that it was being recorded.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
That's beautiful yep.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And you know I thought old mate would just hang up,
but he didn't, you know, he just said, you know
what you have to do. He kept reiterating that. I
remember one of the officers getting pretty heated in demanding
he say who he is, and I think at the
end I called him a fucking flop. He hung up
the phone.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
That would be concerning in that someone that irrational, the
way that they're carrying on, Like I described as irrational,
someone might describe it in another way. But there's an arrogance,
there's an entitlement, and I find that quite quite creepy.
There people that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And I use another word. I think there's intent. You know,
there's there's an intent there to cause fear, as an
intent there to tell me they're coming to take my children.
And I would say I'm not. You know, I've become
paralegal through this whole thing. That's another hat of ad
to wear that with that intent and putting that sending
that stuff to me is conspiracy to kidnap children.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Minus how do you explain to your kids their mother
was watching them or yeah, you can call it stalking,
whether it's amounts of stalking, but how did you explain
to them that the mother's keeping an eye on them?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's difficult.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I don't imagine.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
My youngest son was under the impression that she'd moved
back into the area, something that I probably didn't mention before.
He always used to say, he stops saying it now,
but he used to say, she'll never give up. You know,
he'd heard things when he was staying in those camps
and things like, you know, we'll go through their doors
(07:50):
and stuff like that. That's stuck in his head. So yeah,
it's difficult to explain to him, you know, I just
I just have to say these things are going on
and hopefully that they'll change in the future for you.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's a hard conversation. Was the younger son that was
also sprouting ideology.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
At school, Yeah, mainly ideologies about scomo h Scott Morrison
and you know, my body, my rules, you know, stay
away from the jab, all that sort of stuff. But
apparently was standing up and sort of announcing it to
his school, Yeah, classroom.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, that's yeah, well that's clearly the impact that hanging
around with that group has had on him to come
out like that. I need to make it very clear
we're not suggesting all sovereign citizens are capable of committing
such horrendous crimes or Helen then the nam Daka Dahlia Australias,
(08:50):
which is the Sovereign Citizen group.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
It was a group that she formed, yes, yeah, that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
She formed for that matter of linked or would carry
out crimes of that nature. But look at the two shoes,
the two shootings in Queensland and Victoria of police carrying
out their duties and people identify or aligned with sovereign citizens,
and it's quite scary, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that people feel like they can take
their ideology to that level, you know, frightening young children,
frightening people that were caring for my young children. You know,
it's another part of it. They're worried about the other
children at that school, which come into play when we
(09:32):
had school excursions.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And I was thinking when you were talking about the
protections that were put in place for your children's friends
and also at school and if I was a parent
of the friends or parents of the other kids at school,
i'd be worried.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, might I actually put in my own disclaimer because
I would expect other parents to do that to me.
But if my son was going to have a sleepover,
which he didn't for a long time, the first thing
I would do, and that's both of my sons, was say,
you know, this is what's going on in our lives,
and I will totally understand if you don't want my
(10:09):
children at your heart.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So you were up front the yeah, because.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I don't want to be dragging other people into my mess.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
You know, I think I think that's fair enough. Did
you have community support why this was going on in
the in the area that you were living, Because that's
the other thing. Your privacy has just been blowing. Why
that opens Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So when we get back to that DV thing, you know,
one of the things I guess as a man, as
you feel vulnerable saying that we're you know, we're being
impacted by domestic violence. So I got to a stage
where I was like, you know, a lot of this
stuff's happening from keyboards. Yes, they were making approaches and
things like that, but I'm going to drag them out
(10:51):
into the public. This is not when we discussed it
as a family. This is not a dirty little secret
that I'm going to keep because that protects them. What
I've learned is, you know that didn't inflicts domestic violence
against you. They want to silence you, they want to
control you. Well, I took that away the moment I
started to discuss it with people. I encourage my children
(11:12):
to discuss it with their friends, with their friends' parents,
and speak openly about what was going on in their lives.
We did this with their school counselors. They both say,
regular school counselors and school principles. You know, I had
multiple meetings and the support I received in return was overwhelming.
(11:34):
Yeah that Yes, it's okay for your children still to
be at the school.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's good. People can understand what you were going through.
So how did the matter actually get to court? When
did it get to court? And I'm talking the criminal
court here.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Not so Helen had eight warrants.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Arrest warrants for each individual breach.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Of the avy, different things.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think initially it was some extra charges
of intimidation. Yes, well yeah, okay, so they had eight warrants.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Out there, so at the time I became a bit
of a pain in the ass. I guess is a
polite way to put it to the cops. I started
to write letters and provide information for my own investigations
into senior police's pigeonholes. I worked out that was part
of the system. I'd hand it over at the police
(12:27):
station and say, this is not a complaint, this is
just some information I wanted to hand on to this person.
But I'd see it and put that person's name on there,
and I'm talking some fairly high ranking police. I went
and spoke to the local members a number of times
and just was like, what actually became a marker for
me was they do this thing called Operation Amarok. So
(12:49):
each time Operation Amarock happened, they'd say, oh, we've got
six hundred of the state's most serious offenders and lock
them up and that sort.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Of thing warrants out for them.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And every time that would happen, I do the little
mailbox drop and say, how come you didn't get helen
to Looney Scott.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I if you've and I know you're listener to the
podcast and people have heard me say I support doing
that type of thing, mate, And you're not being critical
of police, but you're just putting police on notice that
you expect the job to be done and they're there
is to serve the public and you're a member of
the public and this person is causing you a lot
of angst, and so make people accountable. So great strategy.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, so I was pretty diligent in that.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
You can say obsessive diligence probably sounds better.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
But I used the metaphor that I was sprinkling breadcrumbs
across your desk.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I was just diligent. Yeah, sometimes you've got to be.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I had a lot of people gary that were like
moved moved on, or that's what I was told, not
in this division anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That that that's a problem and it's not anyone to blame.
But with police rotating through and someone's for me with
the case that's been dragged on for years, and then
all that knowledge is left and yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So I even got to the point where I walked
in to one of the stations with a coffee. I
sat down on the chair and I said, I'm here
to see the boss. Do you have an appointment? No,
I don't. He's busy, I said, We'll tell him. I
like lots of coffee, So when this one runs out,
I'll get a coffee and I'm going to come back.
And you know, eventually got somebody come and said, mate,
(14:25):
what do you want? Yeah, and I said, the breadcrumbs
have just been sprinkled over your desk at your rank.
So I want her court. I want this stopped. I've
put up with enough makes sense? Yeah, yeah, so that's
what I hadened.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Like you mentioned the figures eight warrants. But if someone's
they've got their warrants and their apprehension warrants, you can
apprehend the person they should be served. You can't just
let them keep building it up. That gives them a
false confidence in it.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And remembering that I probably haven't mentioned this, but every
person in this case that has gone back against talent,
so whether it had been an arresting officer, judge, my lawyers,
everybody has received the sovereign citizen treatment the moment their
names are identified in our case, so bombarded with paperwork, emails,
(15:15):
phone calls. Let's catch Skillstone, it's coming, gar yeah, trust me,
it's coming, all right.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, So you've got to the point where you're pushing
the police. There's a number of warrants for her apprehension,
and then she's being caught that video we showed where
the roadside stopped. That wasn't this time, but that was.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That was the time, that was early in the piece.
That was And then I believe she had the High
Risk Domestic Violence of Vendor team both the Northern and
Southern Region looking for her, and I believe, yeah, they
end up getting out of a roadside traffic stop. Again,
that same gentleman was in the car. And another disclaimer,
those videos are filmed by the person and that's how
(16:01):
they make their way on the internet. Not doing it.
He's made any favors at all, Yeah, publicly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So's it's crazy world, isn't it. It really is the
crazy world. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
And I'm told when she was arrested she was and
you know, I heard secondhand, but she had like six
IDs on.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
A court matter. I've went through the transcripts. I had
access to the transcripts. I think about one hundred and
fifty pages of it, and I was getting a headache
reading through it. I just can't imagine what it would
have been like. You've been involved in the court matter
and the scene it go on, and the I'll say,
(16:40):
a logical way that she would respond to some questions
and the pain and the obstructive manner in which she
went through court to give you, to give you an
example when she has been sworn in to give evidence.
So she's asked if us to identify herself, and this
is from the transcripts, and so it's public record. Good.
This is Helen's answer.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So I'm Helen. That's my name my mother and father
gave me. And that's the only name I consent to.
I don't consent to any further additional names on top
of that, because I understand them to be crowned copyright assets. Okay, well,
that was just being sworn in. Can you tell me
your name? That was the answer when the magistrate asked
(17:24):
her if she knows why she's here. This is what
she said. I can't actually say yes to that, your honor, respectfully.
First of all, as this court accepted yesterday the United
Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People, I have
made extensive efforts over five years. I've been self determined
and self governed. Scott and I managed to separate the
(17:46):
familiar properties. I left home of violence, evidence by police reports,
and I'm self determined and self governing. So no, I
do not understand why I'm here today when this document
United Nations Declaration of Rights of Indigenous People says that
I have a right to self determine and self government.
I consider that I'm here because I've been forcibly joined,
(18:08):
forced assimilated into this situation that we're in today. I'm
getting a headache even yeah, yeah, going through it. Alen
was asked by the prosecutor about the AVA before her
that was the subject of and this is what this
is what she responded to that. So this is the
apprehend violence order that was clearly in front of her,
(18:31):
and she was asked a question about it, and this
is her answer. No, I are abut all assumptions, presumptions
and allegations against me, and being subject to these orders
would mean unlawful conversion between Helen and the legal fiction
that is Helen Delaney, which I do not consent to.
And I do not agree to be the trustee. I
do not agree to be the co trustee. I do
(18:53):
not consent to anyone administering on the trust were you
were you in the court at the time when this
was going on.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
So through DV they give it the option to sit
in a separate room, which is what happened for my wife.
I determined I was going to be in that courtroom
and look her in the eye and say what you've
done is not right, and I'm the line. You won't
be getting past this line. So and.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Just in reference to those answers to very simple, straightforward
questions which could have been answered yes or no, or
just provide the name, this is the narrative that she
continued on with yes during during the hearing, right through it,
and she represented herself. Yes, she had a court appointed
questioner to help her facilitate questions.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Even that poor bugger was shaking his head.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
And here we are a court that's set up that
still got to offer her her rights and provide all
the assistance to it that's required. But clearly, I'd say,
and this is not a technical term, she's just taking
the piss out of the court.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yes, it's what they do. They don't recognize the authority
of the court, so they run it the way they
want to run it, and it all it does is
clog the courts which were already clogged. Hence why you know,
four years after this started we get to our final hearing.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So four years from the start start pretty much, that's
how long. It's how long it's.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
That's how long it took to get justice. Well, that
was the hearing, and then of course she appealed. She
dragged the appeal out in terms of not showing up,
wanting to do it via video link on her own terms,
this sort of stuff, and the court sort of tolerate
it to a point. And then she was told she
had to be there to her appeal and because on
(20:42):
the day she didn't turn up and it was dismissed.
But that's what they do. They like to waste the
court's time.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
And been wasting the court's time. It's wasting public funds.
It is just a drain on society.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
And you know, I can't tell you how many visits
to court I've had, but it's in the tens of dozens.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Of appearances or just a mentioned.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Mansion, adjourned, moved forward.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, and you've got the magistrate, you've got the prosecutor who,
in my reading the transcripts, I think they both behave
themselves very well in that they gave it, gave her
enough latitude, but then just called her on it.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, there was stuff, allegations that I was in the
court to intimidate and do stuff like that. Gary. I
wore the same suit that I'm wearing today, my wedding suit.
I'll have one. I sat in the same seat in
line of view of the magistrate, and I didn't say
a word. I sat through the lot of it to
let the magistrate know I'm here to say it's not.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
On fully understand fully understand the need and why you'd
want to want to go in there. The end result
of the court matter is I understand that she was
convicted of breaching the AVO eleven counts.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, so originally charged with sixteen counts, with three counts
of store intimidate and I believe there was four bail,
failed to appear on bail or something like that, and
convicted of twelve of the sixteen and then convicted of
one of the intimidate and the breach of bails.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, Okay. She was in custody at the time the
court matter, so that she's been held in custody after
the arrest. I think sentenced to nine months, was it.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
No, it's a sentence to twelve months and then released
with time already served of four months for four to
five months, I think it was. And then we had
an instant appeal on that, so it wasn't going to
serve any more time, right.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Okay, well look won't we won't delve into the court,
the court side of it anymore. How did it make
you feel when the guilty verdict came down? It was
there any satisfaction or is it just mate go past that?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
What happened was there was only myself and some media
in the court. The emotion of that last four years
and the relief that you know, I was in this
for nothing more than protect my children and get justice
for them for what had happened to them. And I
(23:22):
don't know what got the better of me, but I
stood up when he said dismissed. I stood up and
yelled out justice for my boys. There the last three
words on the transcript, And yeah, I walked out, and
you know, shed a few tears. Was there was definitely
some relief, but like we do, we just sort of
(23:44):
get through that week and see what comes next week.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, you do you feel like it's in the past.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
No, No, I'm never going to stop watching these boys
until they're old enough and they move out of home
or whatever they do. Yeah, I've I've had some police officers,
more than one say to me, was my family, I'd
pick up and move to the other side of w A.
In fact, my response to that is I'm not committing
the offenses and that lets that person win. So I'm
(24:13):
not going anywhere. This is my family home, it's where
my children want to live. They've got their friends. We'll
go about life, but life will always be a little
different for us than the family next door.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Do you want to just tell me that without going
in the details or naming names. But you had to
get plus security, A plus one yeah, plus one security
plus one.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah. We just had a small family wedding and I
was made aware the day before the wedding. Had you
thought about security?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And I was like no, And that was even police
suggest Yeah. So, and look, I think that's a proper
role of police. That put the idea out me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah. And you know, when you think about getting married,
I was thinking, I hope it doesn't rain, you know,
I hope the bride's happy. I hope my best mate
doesn't get drunk and make a goose of himself. Not
do I need security there to prevent somebody ruining the
wedding just never cross my mind. So I had twenty
four hours to organize something, and yeah, I won't go
(25:20):
into too much detail, but.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I would describe it as you've got the friends slash
associate with the suitable skills to be security at the
wedding pretty much.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah. Yeah, and the guests sort of started to notice
that this is where the black humor comes in again,
I guess, but yeah, the guests noticed that, and we're
getting concerned, and I was like, oh, that's plus one.
You know that person that gets invited that's not on
the main role. It is what it is. It's our life,
(25:52):
and we're doing our best to get through it with
a smile on our dial. At the end, you're.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Gonna laugh, yeah, definitely, Otherwise you'd just be or angry
box of tissues. Yeah. Yeah, You've got to have that
middle ground and just see how stupid this whole situation
that's been for you. And certainly is there any restrictions
still in place like av.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
There's an AVO in place until twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Right, So you've got that form of protection. But as
as you've seen or demonstrated that that was only just
a bit of paper, piece of paper if someone's not
going to.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Buy Yeah, And while I've had a lot of community
support and it continues to this day, that was the
realization I come to, you know that the line that
I keep referring to between that the boys and what
could happen is me. So regardless of any outside help
or what the police can I can't offer, or what
(26:48):
the AVO says, I'm that line that says you're not
going past here. And that's just the way it's going
to be.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I'm thinking through because I've sat with people that have
had stalking situations and that we talk about ankle bracelets
on people that can't abide by the court in that
and I still promote it. I push it and push it.
I think it is the way of the future that
if you are stalking me, let's say you've offended enough
(27:17):
to the port where the courts have got to take action,
You've got an ankle bracelet on, and if you come
within five hundred meters of me or a clometer of me,
I get notified that you're in the area. And that
would give me some peace of mind. Yes, it's a
little bit different with your situation because it's not Helen
acting on our own. She's got these other people that
(27:40):
are quite obsessive. And when you see something like what's
happened in Victoria and what happened up in Queensland and
other situations, what goes through your mind.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I don't want to align myself. I don't know those families. Obviously,
my heart goes out to them. They will people just
doing their job. Yeah, you know, nobody deserves to be
have that happen to them at work. Yeah, we do.
I don't live in fear. I live in readiness. That's
something I want to make very clear that I've had
a lot of time to prepare myself mentally for what's
(28:14):
going on. And like I said to you, I'm prepared
to open up the gates the hell and drag them
inside Gary if I have to. That's that's just how
it has to be. So watch this space. I guess
we can't live a normal life, then we'll live life
on our terms as best we can.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
You shouldn't. And look, I'm looking you in the eyes
and I can see you mean what you say one.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, I'm not a person that makes threats. You know,
I said to you, my children did not choose for
this to be in their life, for this to happen.
The rabbit hole gets tossed around a lot, but essentially
that's what's happened. Their mother's gone down the rabbit hole,
and she's dragged the whole lot of us down there
with her. And I'll do whatever I can to let
(29:00):
my children have a normal life.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Was there any in all the ongoing disputes, whether it
be in the civil or criminal, was there any suggestion
of mental health issues? Did that ever come in?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I've been asked that multiple times, But like I'm not
a psychologist. My answer to that when people ask me
that is a mental health break or something you know,
I would would think can be temporary to do something
like this. This has been long sustained, planned, you know, actioned.
(29:36):
So yeah, I probably say in my opinion, I can't
speak on behalf of Helen Delaney, but I would say
that she knows exactly what she's doing. What I would
say if she ever listens to this is her children
wanted to stop. They don't want to live their lives
like this. They don't want their mother not to be
in their lives. They just wanted to stop the behavior.
(29:58):
You know, if you want to throw your life away,
you throw it away. But remember that that that there's
children in this and those children having their lives thrown
away by your actions.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
That's an important message. And if there's any thing that
comes out of it, if she is listening, and it
surprised me if she doesn't, if she hears about it,
that that that is a very strong.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Message and it's the truth.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
What what have you learned about the group?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
The ND A lot scary? Ye, I've got a large file.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, is anything the public that you can share?
I don't you know, we're not picking the fight here,
but that I.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Think, no, no, No.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Part of it is that people have got to understand
what these groups are about. We as we talked about
at the start of the podcast, we sort of looked
at these groups of a bit of a bit of humor.
It was a bit funny someone seceding from the Commonwealth
and all that. But it's gone a lot further.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, and and and it continually morphs into something else.
So once they become exposed as what they are, they
change the group, they move, they change the name of
the group. There's a lot of the same players within
that group. They do this thing where they call themselves
(31:20):
like the chap they're looking for at the moment, DESI
Freedom not his surname. You know, they change their names.
They hide behind keyboards. A lot of them they talk
in secret chat rooms. You know, what I would say
to them is you don't know who's within those chat rooms,
who's documenting what you're saying, who's happy to drag you
(31:42):
out in the public and say this is what you're doing.
And I'm referring to Helen Delaney there. I don't want
to pick a fight with the rest of them. I
got enough on me blate, But what I would say
is whatever you want to call yourself or whatever you
want to hide behind, what you're doing is not okay.
And there's members of the community they are prepared to
get into your groups and exposure of who you.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Are again a good message. But I think it's a
reasonable assumption for him to make too that the police
are going to be spending a lot more time looking
at looking at these groups now, not because of what's
we're talking about here, but the things that have played
out in Victoria and Queensland, that there will be some
further attention. A big question that you might have an answer,
(32:28):
but you know, something like what happened in Victoria? Do
you see this as predictable when you're watching the narrative
on the keyboards.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
That's a big call to answer that, you know. I
don't know how to answer that, Garry. To be honest,
what I would say is, there's all sorts of people
within these groups. Yeah, and if you go online now
there's grubs out there celebrating what happened down there in Victoria,
(32:59):
which is just disgraceful. And I think that the possibility
for things further things to happen certainly well on the cards,
you can't rule that out.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I'm not sure if we covered it. But the dressing
up in the sheriff's uniforms or the fake sheriff's uniforms
tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah. So they become aware that they are on a
bit of a recruitment drive, and them darker Nda as
we refer to them, they hide a bus like the
government bus, as you say, they put a large stick
to the other side of that bus, and they were
going through small groups and towns basically putting their message
(33:38):
out there and recruiting members. I think at one stage
we had numbers of around one hundred and fifty. Some
of those people are just vulnerable people that may have
lost their children in custody battles, that may have had
their family home taken off them, may not have agreedble
what happened during COVID, that sort of thing, and they
(33:59):
get caught up in this and it's cult like, you know,
they preach to them. They have formed their own little
Sheriff's thing. I believe it's something that's come from the
States as well. They wear body cameras, they had beige
akubra hats on. I nearly attacked a bloke that knocked
on my front door that I saw approach on the
(34:20):
cameras who was a Jehovah's witness that just happened to
be wearing a BII shirt and a beije akubra. You know,
that's where that's how heightened I am. I think it's
silly them running around in the uniforms. But what I
would say is we need to stop talking about them
being silly. They're a group and they're acting in company
(34:43):
and they're organized and they hold their meetings, and some
of those members do stupid things that they can't take back.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
And you touched on there that attracts vulnerable people, and
that's yeah, that is very much a cult.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Cult sit and there's always a grift. So that grift
these people need to fund their lifestyle of not working
and being productive members of the community. So they're always
looking to sell you an idea or a story. So
you know, don't drive with a driver's license by one
of ours. Yeah, put your fake name on there, but
you've got to buy it off them.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
And with the social media and that, you can go
down the rabbit hole too, can't you. And ideologies, and
I think this is a concern that you get into
an algorithm that you're looking on social media your ideology,
how way out it might or might not be. You've
got all these people who are telling you the same thing,
so you can see how people get sucked into it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, and vulnerable people get drawn into a group that's saying, listen,
we can help you get your kids back, we can
help you do this, and they feel a part of something,
you know, and then they're in bolden to do more
than they normally would.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And one invariably one person taking advantage of the vulnerable
people in.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
There and steering and who's always agreement.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
In a direction. Prepping for this podcast just got me
interested in the whole sovereign citizen movement and a little
bit of research there and just a couple of things
that we might open up to discussion. We're not talking
about the NDA now, We're not talking about Helen. This
is just a general discussion about sovereign citizen movement in Australia,
(36:23):
so a summary of it. We've talked enough about it now,
But in Australia is part of a broader global movement
that claims individuals can declare themselves independent from government authority
and law. Proponents of this movement believe that they are
sovereign individuals who are not subject to the laws of
the state, often rejecting legal systems, taxation, and government regulations.
(36:47):
That sort of sums up the narrative. They've sort of
sit separate. We're stepping away.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Something you missed there, Gary is they don't reject the
dole payment.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Well, I will get to that because I've got in
in my notes here of just the hypocrisy of their ideology,
but we'll talk talk about that, but in key beliefs
that's breaken down in the common law. The use of
common law. Common law is something that's happened in the past.
That's what we base our laws on, the common law,
(37:17):
not the statute law that we have here. Self identification
anti government sentiment that seems to be and the research
I looked at by no means an expert, but it
sort of came from the US during covert power and
the push, and I think that people are brought into
it what we went with. All the lockdowns are here
(37:39):
in the country. Say that sort of got a little
bit of momentum.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And there's a rich market if you're looking for supporters.
I was. I can't tell you how many pubs I've
sat in and bashing up the Polly's as part of
the conversation somewhere, so it's not hard to find.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Well, we'll just show that we don't disagree with everything
that the sovereign citizen. But you've got to keep it
in perspective. But those lockdowns were ridiculous when they put
the nine pm curfew on. Where was a medical evidence
or scientific fact that a nine pm curfew is going
to help reduce the spread of COVID.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, try and try starting a new relationship during that
when you live three hours apart.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, I yeah, it's not a hard narrative to buy into,
is it. Like it's easy to.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
And a slippery slope. But you get dragged in and
you start to believe the stuff and before you know it,
your life's going.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You're caught up in it. Court and legal systems challenges.
They rely on the court system to some degree, like
they want all the benefits of the court system when
it suits them, but then they don't want to acknowledge
the court system when it doesn't or our legal system,
which I think is a strange thing. Conspiracy theories. When
(38:53):
you've got people that got an ideology and they're on
the extreme, it's easy to dangle a conspiracy the governm.
It's working against you. This is happening. All police are
this and you can see.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
How Yeah, planning microchips in your brain through Cranbridge juice.
I've read it all.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it might buy in the one
or two people and then you've got oh, well he
agrees with me, Scott's agreeing with what I've said, And
then it escalates from there. So wonder and again this
is not picking a fight with sovereign citizens, but I
just hear hypocrisy of the ideology, so rejection of government
(39:31):
authority versus dependence on services. So you were talking about
the welfare payments that we don't respect the government but
wears our welfare payment.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Even driving on public roads, you know, they're not driving
on them, they're traveling on them either way. You're using
the public road.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
That because I picked up on that not driving, we're traveling.
Because my argument would be, well, you don't agree with
the paying the taxes and all that, you're using the
for abilities, but they're traveling, they're not.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
That's right. That's how they get around that. And the
vehicle is horsepowered, so it goes back to horse drawn vehicle.
It's yeah, I don't know what more can I say.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
It's difficult looking at utilizing public infrastructure. I suppose that
we're talking roads, we're talking public transport, we're talking about
the medical system or the health healthcare system. Legal challenges
versus legal protections, selective acceptance of laws. That seems to
be very much something there. They like when it suits them,
(40:37):
grab hold of.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
It and selective versions of the truth, you know, cherry
pick what they want out of the argument, but don't
don't use facts.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Well, I suppose we could pick apart the ideology in
a lot of ways. But seeing how you've experienced it,
and we're not putting you up as the expert on
sovereign sovereign but in your personal experience, you've had to
have a look at it. Do you think do you
see these type of ideologies and groups rising or do
(41:10):
you think I.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Tell you, yeah, that I'm no expert, but I can
tell you the numbers of rising purely by being in
the groups and monitoring what you know, the stuff that's
related to us. Yeah, I've seen that grow exponentially, and
you know, hopefully the government is watching and taking some
(41:32):
action because they need to put a lid on this
pot before it boils. That's what I say.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Looking back at what you've gone through, do you think
there's any way you could have put a circuit breaker
in this and not letther escalate it to the manner
in which it did.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Now, I think what you had, and I've thought about
that a lot, is two parents, you know, fighting over
the kids, and you add into it the complexities of
what's been involved in our case, and it just there's
no way on back and down. I can assure you,
like I've said many times, and I assume Helen Delaney
(42:15):
will be the same. So it's where does it stop.
I don't know where it stops, but I know I'm
prepared to be in it for the long haul, and
coming on and speaking to you about it is to
let them know that you're not going to silence me,
You're not going to intimidate me. What you're doing is wrong,
and I'm going to stand in front of that. You know.
(42:36):
And I don't say that in relation to the whole
sovereign citizen thing. I say in relation to my children.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Well, I think and I'm looking at Yeah, the way
you've handled it all the way through, it was conciliatory,
like fifty to fifty to start with, It wasn't. She
was all the blame. That type of separation, that was
you went your separate ways, different life goals, and then
it's just gone bad.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
And you know, I'll go as far as to say this, Gary,
somebody said to me that all children deserve a mother. Unfortunately,
not all mothers deserve their children. That's what we're at.
You know. That's that's where this I don't know if
there's much more I can say on it. That's that's
they said that to me, this person, and it's it
(43:19):
rings true for me.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's how do you how do you think your your
children have been impacted by what's gone on?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Hugely, hugely. Part of doing this also, and I've only
spoken to select me, is my children are going to
at the moment, they're looking at this through the lens
of children. Okay, at some stage they're going to be fathers,
they're going to be adults, and when that happens, they'll
(43:48):
look at this very differently. Not having their mother in
their life is not easy. I'll say that. But what
I want out there is, you know, you've seen the
window smash thing. I think they've had twelve million hits. Okay,
there's a lot of other stuff on the Internet that
they've already seen about their mother, and they have kids
(44:08):
talk say stuff to them about it. It is hard.
They've been very lucky. They've got really supportive mates and
the parents and that. But what I will say is
that I want to put a version there so that
they can see there's another side. To this, there's always
two versions in an argument. When their fathers and their
(44:28):
grown adults, which is not that far down the track
for them, they'll be able to look back and see
that their father made the decisions he made based on
what was going on at the time, that they can't
change I can't change what happened in their life, and
that I did everything in my bloody power to protect
them from what was going on in their life.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, I don't think there can be any argument there.
What about you personally?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
The impact I might have aged in dog years you
lost your hair old phlossiphy hair. I think that started
when I was sixteen, Gary. But yeah, it's taken a
huge toll on myself, on Karen and Karen.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
And give reference to Karen. Karen's your wife. She's come
here and in the conversations are very supportive of what
you've gone through. That must have been mate.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
She without Karen or she has been rock solid. She's
had to step into something that most I think partners.
I think even if I was put in the same situation, Gary,
out Jesus, if.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
I looked at you on paper, I'd be running the mile. Karen,
what's together there? What did you see any.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I think I think what I would have done was
say I'm ducking down a pub for a beer and
maybe not come. Yeah. So yeah, I'm very extremely lucky
that she's been there through all of this and continues
to this day to do that. She's been that voice
of reason for the boys as well. I don't think
she'll mind me saying that. You know, the boys are
(45:59):
sort of grieving. I use this term. They're grieving the
loss of somebody that hasn't died.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah, it's so difficult for the kids. It must be, really.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
And you imagine the responsibility Garrey, that comes with being
a part of you know, taking action, that's that's brought
that about it. It's huge. I don't underestimate that at all.
But I've done what I've done to protect my children.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Well, I suppose that's that's got to be the priority,
hasn't it.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
That's the number one priority above all else my own health,
you know, my finances, everything. The children are the number
one priority. If they had two parents that were doing that,
we wouldn't burn this mess something. You know, somebody said
to me the other day, who's been along this journey
with us? You guys need a holiday. If I ever
(46:48):
won lot, i'd send you guys on a holiday. I said,
that's nice, but it's going to have to burn Australia
because something we didn't mention along the way is that
I had to put a port block in on both
of the boys as there was other people overseas and
there was a concern that that may happen.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Sorry, and that was your concern that they might be
grabbed and then facilitated overseas.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yeah, well she currently held their passports at the time,
so that made that a very real prospect. We had
to cost a fair bit of money and time to
get that put in place. But unfortunately along where that
comes the fact I can't take them out of the
country either, So no VG holiday for us at the moment.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It's recommend Darwin. I always like going to dar.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I don't do heat, Gary, I don't do heat Sen
head off down the Tasmania and Karen will probably too.
I don't do planes, so they'd have to sedate me.
So I don't do holidays. Yeah. Yeah, the boys and
I have gotten into I had a hobby of keeping
Koi fish Japanese fish, right, Yeah, and that's that's been
(48:03):
one of the saviors for the boys. That's a nice
peaceful it's a very peaceful balance. And Yang is the
and Yang Yeah, yeah, believe you do? Is it chign Yeah, yeah, yeah,
you were staring into the pond gives me the same thing.
And we're currently sort of doing our best to go
from what they call pondfish up to showfish. A lot
(48:25):
of time, effort, money goes into it, but it, yeah,
it gives back. That's our relaxation.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
That's I'm glad you're get in some balance because you've
been through a tough time.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah, it's been different.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Well, look, I think and your kids are going to
look at this. You've you've handled it like you would
expect a father to handle handle the situation. I think
that that'll come across as they get older, they get
they're in that awkward age now where they're like strangers.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Anyway, No, I'm very lucky, Gary. I don't know if
this has brought that bond closer, like I'm men the
tummy time. But both of my boys tell me they
love me every day. That my oldest son is not
afraid to say it in front of his like you know,
they're on the phone. They call you. He says, love
your dad. They say that in front of their mates.
(49:17):
They're not afraid to hug me at the school in
front of their mates, and that bond is strong and
I'm very lucky to have that. So with everything that's
going on, they can't take that away from me.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Well, it's great. That sounds like you're teaching good, good
young man.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I hope they will turn out that way.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yeah, well, look, thank you for coming on, coming on,
I catch killers. As I said at the start, you
probably prefer just listening to.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
It, whether they ever dreamed I was going to be
on here.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Here is a guest. But look, a lot of important
messages you put out. You've given me a greater understanding
of a potential era that was dismissed as a joke.
But now we've got to take it more seriously. And
also giving a male perspective of when domestic situations go bad,
because invariably it's we're hearing from the woman's perspective. And
(50:08):
I think it's interesting hearing the man talk about it.
It does take an emotional toll. You're sitting there stoic,
and you got through it, but I can see the pain.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
See it in my eyes, mate, there's Yeah, it does
take a toll, yeah, but it's important that blokes out there,
you know, that are gone through I dare say there's
not many going through my situation. Yeah, but I dare
say there's blokes out there to listen to this that
are going through their own situation. All I would say
(50:41):
is that the one denominated that doesn't change is that
they're your kids. So you might be prevented prevented from
seeing them in the short term. Play the long game.
Those kids will come out of being children and become adults,
and they're going to need a father, you know, So
play the long game and step.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Up with greater dice and we might leave it there.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Thanks mate, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Cheers
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