September 29, 2025 • 51 mins
Nicole Meyer was abused by paedophile Malka Leifer hundreds of times. The sisters fought internationally to bring Leifer to justice, and what unfolded was years of countless court appearances, dozens of overseas flights, an extradition and a lengthy trial. Leifer faced 70 charges including rape and was jailed for 15 years. Leifer was found guilty of the abuse towards Nicole's sisters, and not guilty towards of the abuse she suffered, leaving Nicole without any justice - but she won't be silenced anymore.
Watch the Stan Original documentary, Surviving Malka Leifer, out October 5.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life, the average person has never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
In part two of my chat with Nicole Meyer, we
spoke about the personal impact on her and the two
sisters because of the actions of the school principle, malcol Lifa,
and how harrowing the seven week trial was on her
and the sisters, how it felt to finally face down
her abuser, and what lessons can be learnt from her
experiences so this type of despicable crime doesn't occur again.
(01:09):
As I said it was a very difficult conversation to have,
but it's one I think is important to talk about.
Nicole Meyer, welcome back to I Catch Kill. It's part two.
Thank you. I'm still just processing all that you told
us in part one and the battles that you had
to go through and your determination to get a person
(01:30):
just to be put before the courts. So we're talking
about market Leifa, the principal at the school that you
were attending as a student, and then your battle. So
I think something like seventy five court appearances to get
the courts in Israel to approve her extradition back to Australia.
I want to take it to that point in time now.
(01:52):
So once you were notified about the extradition, I would
imagine yourself and your sisters and the people around you
supporting You would have thought, yes, this is a step
in the right direction. But again that's just the start
of the efforts to get justice. What happened after you
were informed about the extradition.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Of course, we spoke to prosecutors in Israel and they
did let us know then that Michaelaifel will be extradited.
They can't give us an exact approximation of when and
not only that they legally cannot tell us when she's
on the plane, and we were like, really, we can't
even know when she's in the sky. Like that was
really difficult, So we just kept in touch with them.
(02:32):
It was I don't think anything major happened there made
it been a couple mentions. The main thing that had
to happen from then in Israel was getting the paper
signed for extradition by the Justice minister. It had to
happen now, that in itself is a process. And all
we heard, and I'm going to go to the day
that she arrived, all we heard was that it was
a foot race literally because the skies were closing because
(02:54):
of COVID ah right, and they had to get the
paper signed and get her on that plane out of
Israel to Australia because literally there were no flights coming
to Australia from Israel. Pasted her flight. It was nothing
short of miraculous as she actually got on that plane
and the paper was literally signed, how I can mission it,
and then racing and even the detective that Flewever were
not even there for forty eight hours, they picked her
(03:16):
up and they put her on the plane bought her
to Australia, and I remember the female detective said, you
are arrested on Australian soil. Was like the moment to
say to her, after all these years, you are arrested.
And all I remember of the night that she came
back is because of that leaked photo from some random
person in Israel that went worldwide, we knew that she's
(03:39):
on the plane. And then it was all the detectives,
you know, the experts online trying to find which flight,
and then it was all the news in the airport,
but it was COVID so we couldn't go to the airport,
and the reporters said all their masks on and they
were standing by the window, and we had one very
kind reporter I'm actually meeting later today because she was
a big part of our journey and she held her
phone to the wall of the.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Very crazy.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I was on the live. My sisters were on the
call as well. We're on what's that video? And we
just watched the plane land, the whole thing, talking the
whole time, And that part will be in the documentary.
You'll see parts of that being filmed called Surviving Malkalofa,
because I had the whole filming crew in my house
filming me watching her land. It was a huge It
was the most shocking, surreal moment to feel a physical
(04:23):
sense of her being back on the soil. It's still
something I feel now. Because she felt unreachable, she felt untouchable,
she felt like she was always evading and escaping. It
felt so It was so grounding to finally feel that
she's here. She can't escape anymore. She's here, She's on
Australian soil. It didn't matter that I didn't know which prison.
(04:45):
And then the next morning I heard her voice for
the first time because she was arranged. They go to
court and they get you know, how do you plead
or whatever words the judge says, and that was all
the courts.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, were you in the courts or were the courts closed?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Closed? Everything online?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Okay? Well, first of all, thankfully that you got here
on the plane before our COVID because that I'm sure
you would have hung in there, but that would have
been a much longer story because the borders borders shut down.
Her first appearance at court, she wasn't granded. Bao kept
in custody, Yes, okay. Were you in contact with the
police and the prosecutors about the trial and how long
(05:21):
that might take.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So once she arrived, we probably met with the opp
and the people that were needed with us, and we
had a couple of meetings and we were told there'll
be a committal hearing in twenty twenty one in September,
and that was the first court appearance for us. So
we had to then realize, Wow, this is real, this
is happening there, this is actually happening. I remember them
saying at the time, absolutely no news. There is a
(05:42):
gag out of the secondary lands on this country. You
are the absolutely can't make you cannot say comments, you
cannot give your opinions, you cannot say anything to the news.
And that was it. We went utterly silent. So there
was like one news crew that tried to follow me
and try to get a statement fast the committal and
they didn't bother coming again because they knew we couldn't talk.
We actually couldn't say a word.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Well potentially could the jeopardize absolute suations?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Absolutely, So my sisters and I very quietly it was COVID,
so we to wear masks and we were like, oh,
can we just take it off in the building, not
to you get into the room. It was done remotely,
like not in the court, orne in the opp's office,
and we sat down for a couple of days, each
of us giving our evidence. Only the defense lawyer the
prosecutor barely stood up because it's the committal you're trying
to show, prove that this court can be given.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And for people, I think they'd understand the committal process,
but just showing that there's sufficient evidence for it to get.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
The trial to be committed to trial, yes, And then
that was over, and then we had to wait for judges' decision,
which was pretty it's going to happen, like pretty certain.
But at the same time, I just found some journal
notes just randomly yesterday on the day that we got
the notification that's been committed to trial. And how I
felt then, did.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You found some of your own journals? Tell us what
were you thinking?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It was actually when I read it yesterday or sad
because it was like I had so much hope for
justice and I was so excited for justice. It was
tinged with sadness. But also I could see back in
twenty twenty one, how huge that was that it was
committed to trial, even though we were certain there's always
a little bit of we had so many times it
was almost and never happened that almost could even happen
all the way to the day trial starts. So the
(07:12):
fact that it was committed was incredible. It was committed
for August twenty twenty two, my birthday, actually the day
it was meant to start, strange star birth before it
was pushed off the day before. Why the defense team
and I guess prosecution had so many pre trial discussions
that they still needed to talk about weeks and weeks
(07:33):
they had already done until then wasn't enough and the judge,
I guess, did not have availability to allow for more
pre trial conversations to happen. So trial was pushed off
to February. That was a huge blow. We had all
moved out of home, we were mentally prepared, we had
all been preparing emotionally for trial, and to have a
pushed off at such a late stage was crushing. It
(07:54):
felt like it could not get any worse, And I
know many victim survivors go through this a lot of times.
Trials I postponed orrijourned, and it's just it's something we
can't control. It's the system, it works. We understand that,
but it still is impactful regardless.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think we can't control it, but I think more
effort could be done to keep them on track because
I've seen trials that, yeah, have been put off, and
as you described it from a victim's point of view,
your whole life is focused on this. You've rearranged your
life and then it gets put off on short notice
because defense need more time to prepare their defense, or
(08:28):
even prosecutors need more time things like that. We've really
got to be conscious of the impact that has on people,
like what you're going through. So it's been delayed. It
finally comes up the trial. It talk us through the
emotions and what took place there.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So because we now knew it was actually happening second
time round, my sisters and I again moved out of
home because we need to be fully focused. We cannot
be a parent at the same time as giving evidence
to the extent that we needed to. So we just
moved to a quest near in South Bank so we
can get to the city easy every day. And once
this didn't come full time and we literally just knuckle
(09:08):
down and read our statements and hardly talk to each other.
Family members would come visit us, like just have dinner,
our play game or something to lighten the atmosphere. And
then it was day one and we were video like
journaling the whole time. So we have videos of us
three together that morning of the afternoon of how we
felt post like we just there. And then it was like,
(09:29):
we are going to walk in together. We are proud,
we are going to walk with our backs up, and
this is our moment to finally face the woman who
has invaded our every waking moment for years and over
a decade or two decades, including the abuse. And we're
going to go and seek justice. We're going to do this.
(09:50):
And so we yeah, we all got dressed, we were
all in the room, We all left the quest together.
We walked to court. There was a huge camera crew
outside taking pictures and everything like that. So it felt
very surreal.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Had you become accustomed to that at this stage or
this was at another level again when it got to this, This.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Was a higher level. But we had been so many
years around media and even the ABC documentary that we
did back in twenty seventeen eighteen, that we just knew
how to kind of like zona out, and we also
knew how to boundaries. We also knew how to manage
the media. So yes to one, No, we can do
you after or can we all just have you together
in one room so we can just see we had Yeah,
we'd become accustomed to knowing how to handle that. And
(10:29):
also we couldn't talk as much as we would have
loved to, We couldn't say a word. So we just
walked right into court and went to level one in
counter court.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Making a statement, walking in proud and.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
With our family members all supporting us and coming with
all our siblings came and we went and spoke with
the opp and they said, all right, Nicole, you're up first.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Is that the first time you've seen her since she's
been extra di either back to in person, so.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
This is a funny thing. Yeah, we actually asked her
for a screen. So I felt, and I don't know
if you can understand this, but the respect for the
judge was huge. It was like heavy and deep in
the room. So I felt it would be so disrespectful
if I turned my chair around to look at Marko Laifer,
and I've asked for a screen, so I couldn't do it.
(11:17):
So I felt her and I heard her voice because
she's like, oh, I want to watch Nicole.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I want to see her.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So they had to go set up a whole computer
for her to be able to see me giving evidence
because she couldn't see me physically. And they did that,
and I looked at the defense lawyer, I look at
the prosecutor, I looked at the jury. On day two,
I slightly turned my chair. I was like, I'm not
going through without staring her down. That's not happening. And
she did this very side as she's walk turned around
out of the dock, like we caught eyes for a minute.
(11:43):
Like side, very evil, very intentional, very deep. But then
on the third day I just didn't care anymore and
I just fully turned around and looked at her right
up and down and then turned back again.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Absolutely it was.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It was, and she was leaving to go back to jail,
and I am free, and I can walk out this
courtroom and join my family and my community.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah. I can imagine how that must must feel, how
empowering that must feel.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
It was very necessary for me to look at her
because she loomed and she still does at time so
big in my mind because of the impact of her abuse.
So I have had to see her and realize that
I am here and you are there like there were.
It was very necessary for my own healing and my
own journey. I hadn't seen her in person since the
day she pulled me out of class and said, what's happening,
(12:31):
So that that amount of time working around trying to
bring someone to justice and not actually seeing them, because
she pulled that trick in Israel, there was all the
camera crews. She was meant to come to court that
day because obviously because we were there, she decided she's
not coming in person, and she didn't come in person again. Right, Okay,
So she had been attending in person until then and
doing the whole fiasco of pretending to be unwell, pretending
(12:52):
to fall down, pretending to be sick, and all that
kind of stuff, which she didn't try once in Australia.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, all of the nebulations and little game that she
played or obviously didn't work out, got a back here.
How long we were in the witness box giving.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Evidence three full days and one half day or three days.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Court's intimidating for anyone. I don't care what they say.
If people say they're not nervous before that, they're getting
the witness box as stupid. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's a
natural reaction, very big thing that you're talking about. How
did you find the experience?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
It feels like the whole court process is designed to
make the victim feel like they've done something wrong. And
that's what's sad about it, because we should feel empowered,
we should feel we have a chance to say our
whole truth, not a reducted, very very limited truth, which
is unfortunately what happened, and what happened very deeply to me.
And I walked in and said in the stand. As
(13:47):
I sat in my seat, I was giving a glass
of water, and it was just the feeling in the
room was so intense, so quiet, because when my sister's
like get evidence, it wasn't open court because of the
sensitive but still I counted thirty people in the room,
despite the fact that it was despite that I had
to because that was just my way of gauging everyone.
(14:09):
The jury members looked interested, the judge barely glanced at me,
and unfortunately, I will say this, he did not look
at us the entire trial, even at the plea, even
at the sentencing. I think judges have a right to
be and they need to be unbiased and impartial. But
we're humans and they can, and there have been judges
(14:30):
they can say thank you, Nicole when they step down,
or that was very brave of you, and that doesn't
mean anything. That just means they're chronowledging that you are
a human victim that has gone through horrific abuse and
you've come up to stand up and talk about it
in the most clinical terms, which is really what I
find what the stand did to me and I'm sure
to my sisters into other victims as well. It can
(14:51):
narrow down six and a half years of abuse to
four charges of rape and one of indecent assault, which
is the whole seveny issues around. So it wasn't anything specific,
and it can literally narrow even further to time whether
exactly how far certain acts were and what exactly meant
bringing a medical expert to prove that it was actually
this particular way and not that particular way, and it
(15:15):
really boils it down to such a clinical nature. There's
not enough context given there's not enough understanding of this
type of woman and the control she had and the
impact in every area, and how she was always around
and there none of that was explained in a way
that a jury could understand how this could actually happen.
These rapes don't occur in a vacuum, and unfortunately that's
what it does. And I understand, you've got to prove
(15:36):
beyond reasonable doubts. You have to narrow down and really
ask the hard questions and get right in there. But
I think in doing so, I think the prosecution didn't
give enough context around mulcut Lifer. Yes, around our background, yes,
how she rund the school, but not particularly for my story.
And I also understand my story was extensive. She abused
(15:57):
me hundreds of times. He got boiled down to only
five charges given to me. I didn't really get a chance.
I didn't get a fair chance to yeah, and to
discuss the extent of it for sure, not so I
walked out of three days not feeling that I did
justice for myself. I didn't feel I had a chance
to say my story. And I think that is the
(16:18):
misconception that a lot of victim survivors have when going
to court. They think we're going to get up there
and we're going to just it's going to all pour
out and we can talk. And it's not it's so scripted,
and it's so careful. And you say one word wrong mistrial,
You talk about one incident, you're not supposed to mistrial.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And we were given those wor pressure, isn't it so much?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And and we are my sisters and I are people
that understand the court systems, have been through legal systems
and other different things that were going on in our
lives and in Israel. My sister and I had attended
a court case in America to support a victim there,
so we were well aware of how it worked there.
And it was like we knew we knew questions to ask,
we knew what to say, we knew what to wear,
we knew how to look. We felt confident. We were
waiting for this for so long, we prepared, we were
(16:56):
very switched on. And still still it felt like I
did not really have my chance to say my story.
And the jury don't really know what Marco life had
did to me.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
They just don't.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
They're walking away things. Was that really a rape or
was that not really a rape? Well I'm not sure
because the doctor said this, and the defense lawyer said this,
and Nicole said this, so we'll just give I don't
know they're thinking, but this is all the different things
I've thought since then.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you're not
the first person that's gott in the witness box and
got out and felt that way. It's a shame that
the courts doesn't allow. You know, We've got a system
that set up. You know, people say it's good. I
think it can always be improved, but I do understand
what sometimes I've got to out of the witness box
and not with the pressure that you're under in regards
(17:44):
to being a victim reporting a crime that's occurred to you,
but get out of the witness box and think I
wasn't even allowed to tell if I just know, I've
got all these legal people sitting here, and I'm sitting
there thinking I could answer this if I was just
allowed to talk and explain the situation. So the context
is important. Another issue that you talk there. I think
it is time that we change. And it's not the
(18:04):
criticism of the judge that was sitting on the trial there,
but judges in general, I think we should allow a
little bit of humanity in the court. So I've seen
it time and time again in murder trials at a
high level supreme court where there doesn't seem any humanity
there for the victims. And I understand there needs to
be an independence and you know, it's not about the
(18:27):
emotion of it, it's about the facts. But a little
bit of humanity would go a long way, wouldn't it.
Absolutely Sorry, It's probably difficult too with a jury there
because the judge doesn't want to appear too sympathetic to
the victim because that'll be the judge that will indicate
that the judge believes what the person is saying. Perhaps
(18:47):
that's the reason, but yeah, I think we miss it.
The courts are there to set or to represent and
provide justice for the community. I think we've got to
make some adjustments.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I think judges and general should have very specific trauma
informed training for them specifically, and that is something that
I know a lot of victim survivors feel because judges
can make some really awful comments that can really impact
the victims, particularly in their closings, particularly to even to
a victim when they say something the way that they
(19:19):
phrase certain words, and then it leaves us victims go
through the system thinking like we just had an awful judge.
Now I don't think we had an awful judge. I
think they did an incredible case, very tight, was very
on top of it, so authoritative, And I think that
defense lawyers have a job to do and I respect
that job. Maybe not with sex crimes, but I respect
(19:39):
defense lawyers that they have a job to do. But
they also often don't toe the line the smoking, the laughing,
the comments, the mutterings, the way the condess sending. They
have a job to do, do it, but do it respectfully,
because you're dealing with someone who's traumatized and being abused
and has worked so hard to be on that stand.
So I think there needs to be a whole, a
(20:00):
whole change with the way that the legal system works
in regards to survivors of sexual abuse and of course
family violence and other things. And that has to come
with just some really specific training given to the judges,
defense prosecutions, social workers so that victims feel more supported
through the process. And that is something I feel very
passionately about and I hope that I can join and
I'm looking to always and I am interested in joining
(20:22):
a round table discussions around that legal reform that's needed
to allow victims to feel more supported and have more
rights in the legal system.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think it's a very important to important thing. You
don't want victims traumatized by the court experience or further traumatized.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And many victims say that the core experience is an
additional trauma. It's not just a retraumatization, it's an additional one.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You mentioned defense and said, yeah, they're doing their job.
I agree, but some of them. Yeah, I give them
the lad that you that there is a job, and
a very important job. But I've seen defense that solicitors,
barristers go after victims and I just think it's not balanced.
So they're causing more trauma by the way they approach it.
And you mentioned that it's the subtle things that are
(21:07):
hard to quantify, but the little smirk or the rolling
of the eyes and that type of thing. You're very
much aware of it when you're seeing in the witness box,
and that that type of behavior is betrayed to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
The trial went for seven weeks and then the nine weeks.
I think you said, by the time the jury came
back after you gave evidence for three days, were you
allowed to sit in and watch the rest of the trial.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Legally, I think I could for dusting Ellie, but because
of risk of recross examination or a retrial, they kept
doing until Dusting Ellie finished. No, and after that we
were allowed to listen online. They preferred us not to
be in the court room, right, as, are you going
to stop me? Like I could prefer I know I can,
but of course I respected them and I didn't go
in even though you talk tough, but I'm too respectful. Yeah,
(21:59):
so we just like, yeah, most days we were in
court and everyone listening on our own individual devices. The
defense lawyer jumped up and down about that we have
to be in separate room. So on the first day
we are all in separate room, and then we're like,
stuff it, we're not going to talk. It's not a party.
We're sitting to listen. We're listening in the same room
in our own devices, and that is fine, Okay. So
we did that. The social worker was amazing. She was
with us most days, supporting us. There wasn't one time
(22:21):
that there was a question. Every I thought it was
a verdict. So it was like, oh, mad rush. Everyone
went up to the court room and the prosecution and
the prosecutors like the victims can come in, and the
judges like, I'm not waiting for them. He's like, they're
in the room right next door. So we came in.
It was just a question. But that was good. Really
she got in.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Okay. Now when it got to the jury has come back,
where were you and how were you notified?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
My sisters were in court with eye. It was nine days.
Everyone was on edge.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
So the jury was out for nine days.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Nine days. The prosecution was on edge, the social worker
was on edge, the police was on edge. We were
in court every single day. There was news outside. You
could feel the buzz and there everyone's waiting day after
day after day. First weekend came and we're like, surely,
only it's going to happen on Monday. Now, next weekend came,
We're like, okay, the second Monday, the third Monday, we're like,
it's going to be today. We're all going to dress
(23:07):
and the same things we were on the first day
of trial, because that's momentous for us. It's going to
be today, And it was. We didn't know when at
three forty five my phone was a designated phone call.
The prosecutor called. I said, a verdicts in. I said,
three o'clock. Verdicts in at three forty five, and that's
filmed for the Docky. They allowed just one camera in
to film us then, and it was like we were shaking.
Everyone ran and met in the corridor. The prosecutor, the
(23:28):
social worker, the police detective were all together and we're like,
it's happening. It's happening. I said to Elsa, she's the prosecutor.
I said to her, if I get not guilty and
I pass out, do you want to get an adbultance.
I had this very unsettling intuition from the second I
stepped off giving evidence that I'm going to get not guilty,
and my sisters remember it, and the prosecution remembers it,
(23:49):
and you'll see it on the doco. It's there because
I felt it. I don't know why. Sometimes you just
have a sixth sense about something and I felt it deeply,
and I didn't want to feel it. Yeah, I didn't
want to feel it, but I did. And when we
walked in the courtroom was packed to the rafters. There
was not a single seat available, and it was so quiet,
it was like pin drop silence. And with a room
(24:11):
pack full of people, it was it didn't make sense
that it was so quiet, but that's how tense and
anticipatory it was. And then the knock knock, and the
judge comes in, and then he calls in the jury
and then he says a couple of things and very short,
but then he says and in regards to the verdict,
if anyone is going to lose their composure or make
(24:31):
a distraction, they can leave as well. And that's when
I knew one there's a not guilty in that, because
he's saying that to me or to one of us.
Because and also on top of that, the jury came in.
Not one jury member looked at us, not one. That
is not a good sign sign anyone knows that. And
we kept trying to catch their eye. We were right
(24:52):
there and they were right there. They refused to look
at us. And then the jury foreman got up and
said not guilty. And it was just a shock to
my entire system, like in se so not guilty, not guilty,
not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. And then guilty. And
then the first guilty you can almost hear the whole
cool room breathe because it was like, Okay, she's guilty,
(25:14):
even just one, she's guilty. She's not going to be
going back to Israel today. It was like everyone took
a breath, and then they just read there's a couple
not guilty, sprinkled in with the rest of the chargers,
and then guilty, and then the drudge breads his stuff
and then he says, just charge with the jury, thanks
them for the service, tells them they don't have to
do jury forever many year, more years. And then we
all leave the room and go downstairs. And then there's
(25:34):
like fifteen people stuffed in the left and I'm just
like not sure what I'm feeling. My sisters are broken
harder for me, so they're in tears. I'm not in tears.
I'm in shock. I'm in such shock. We go down
to the room together. We spend a few minutes alone.
Then the whole team comes in. They talk. I don't
think I can remember anything they said. It was flying
above my head. They all left the room. We know
the news is waiting for us downstairs. We prepared for
(25:56):
not guilty, guilty and half and half verdict. So we
had our statements prepared that day. We prepared them knowing
what the different outcomes might be. And my sisters were
just collapsing, and I said to them, guys, we've got
to go. I'm okay, We've got to go, and they couldn't,
and I was the strong one for them. I stood
there and was like, guys, we have to go outside.
(26:16):
We can't keep them waiting. It's already five. We need
to go. I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be okay.
And I just kept saying that. I don't know what strength
I had at that moment to say that and not
to collapse in my grief and just like not want
to face the world, but I just I gave them
strength that I was okay, that we will go outside,
we will face the media, and we will do this.
And eventually, within a few minutes they saw that I
(26:39):
was okay and we walked out.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Amazing how you can react that way. And we'll talk
a little bit about that towards the end. So what
we've got here a situation and people fully understand the
three of you who have been united in this fight
to get justice, and then you've got a jury coming back.
And I know that you've described it other than I
can describe it, But the pin dropped the tension of
(27:02):
a packed court room, everyone's baited breath waiting for it
to come out, and the first lot is not guilty,
not guilty, and then finally get guilty. Your sisters would
have been satisfied the fact that the allegations that they
made have been proven at court, But the fact that
they're so upset, I think is quite endearing to the
(27:25):
fact of what you mean to them, because they couldn't
take comfort from their decisions because of what happened to you. Yeah, okay,
you've prepared, your prepared your media statements. Yes, and that
you've gone out there. How is that fronting the media
after all these years? This is a long, as you said,
over decades from the time the abuse until finally you
(27:45):
get the words.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
It wasn't hard for me because I was still in
that mode of I'm okay. Ellie and Dussy were a
little bit more emotional. They were speaking because you could
see they were feeling it. He answered a couple questions.
Was over pretty fast. They followed us. We kept trying
to walk away. They kept following, We kept trying to
walk away, and then we're just kind of like like
lost chicken. We're like, what do we do now? Where
do we go? I think my sister's husband booked us
a place to stay for the night, and we knew
(28:08):
we were going to be together that night. And then
I think the doccer crew wanted a bit of us,
so we did a bit with them and then kind
of just like flitted away and we went back to
where we were staying, and we had a lot of
news coming from overseas, and we're like, actually, we're just
not talking to anyone tonight. We actually can say that
now we don't have to talk. We can talk to
everyone tomorrow. We're not talking to anyone tonight. Then Ellie said, okay, fine,
just one is really a reporter because they're relentless, and
(28:30):
it was the one that was like just not English
second language. So we ended up just like bursting into
laughter by putting her a mute and then laughing and laughing,
and then trying to give the question back to her
and then going back, sorry I didn't hear it got disconnected,
and then laughing again because the way she asked the questions,
was just beyond when you're that tired and that emotional,
beyond exhausted, where we have the best laughs and sisters
the best And then one sister said that she's not
(28:52):
after doing media the next day, she needs to break.
So Ellie and I did the project and again this
is all me, still running on a journal and still
in shock, still fronting strong and everything and everyone and presenting,
and then the next morning after Sydney for passover, so
I didn't have a chance to process any of it
because it was bang bang, bang bang, as my life
(29:13):
normally is.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yes, you spoke to your family like your husband and
your kids did. How did they receive it? Do we
get their mum and wife back? Now? Is that?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I don't know if my kids felt that way. I
think that I feel like my family because I wasn't
talking about it because I wasn't such shock, kind of
not tiptoeing but kind of not really bringing it up.
And we're heading straight into a Jewish festival, so and
those overseas visitors coming as well as us Sydney, so well,
I was hardly there. I think I was hardly present
most of that festival. I was dealing with the grief
and the shock and the loss and all of that
(29:46):
sadness that was coming up. But it was devastating. It
was absolutely devastating, and it still is to this day.
It hasn't changed because all I wanted was justice and
I didn't get that justice.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Can you take comfort from the fact that your sister's
got justice? And really, if it's you're in this together,
but is it? Can you take any comfort from it?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I can? But what a lot of victim survivors who
don't do their statements in groups or any others I
have got and not guilty will know that a lot
of other steps to justice are denied. So when the
plea hearing happened and my sister's got got up there
to give their victim impact statement, that was the worst
day for me. That was the twenty eighth of June.
And I will never forget that day. In a way,
it's even worse than hearing.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Not guilty, because you couldn't get.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I was completely invalidated. I almost didn't feel like I
should even be in caught, couldn't get up to give
a victim of state, You're.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Not real I'm gone.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
That's it. I'm out of the case completely, the sentencing,
none of the whole sentencing, like not a single charge
for me, and that she was in prison because of
something she did to me. So yes, comfort in the
collective sense, but on a personal level, deeply broken.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I could imagine that then on you quiet moments, just
stepping away on your own thinking about it, that you
said how driven you were for justice, and then just
just not at that point in time.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Recently, I've actually created a hashtag for myself for my TikTok,
and it's my voice is My Justice. And that's literally
been what I've used in the last two weeks because
I've realized I've had to slowly, very slowly understand I'm
not going to get justice. That even if a whole
bunch of new chargers came up, even if it did
get to the opp they wouldn't run a new trial,
and they told me they can't because of the contamination
(31:24):
and the high profile nature. They can't. So even if
they accepted the statement, it doesn't matter. So I'm not
going to get that chance for justice. So my voice
is my justice, and Marco Laifer will not shut me up.
So I was very quiet for a couple of months,
and I think my sisters told me after they were
worried about me, that I would never recover and come
out of it, still continuing life and gym and kids,
but very quiet in any other sense. And then that's it.
(31:47):
I stepped up, stepped out, and I've been advocating, spoken
to the Prime Minister last year, been part of National
Survivor's Day in good Faith foundation with the shild and
Childhood Foundation. Started studying law this year. So I am
just like, I'm not allowing that pain to completely derail
my life. Instead, I've switched it around and I've become
a voice for survivors. I've spoken at many events. I've
(32:08):
advocating and wanting to keep advocating as well as while
I start studying law so that I can get into
the system and help victims from the inside, not just
from the advocacy space. So I really turned around that
pain to do something very very constructive and funnily enough,
TikTok helped me a lot with that. I opened TikTok
and just started talking and people started sharing. Started absolutely
(32:29):
there's a whole incredible community of survivors there. The amount
of particularly older generation, old of me. I just turned forty,
disclosing to me for their first time on TikTok that
they were abused when they were younger is incredible. And
I've created that space that people feel safe to share
knowing that there's someone there that understands them. And I've
met some people in person through TikTok, like Australians. I've
invited some to National Survivors Day as well to give
(32:51):
them the opportunity to be in a room full of
survivors at an event. And I really have used my
voice to get my own justice.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
That's worth while and what they think is amazing, how
people and people that sit in this chair because I
hear a lot of stories of different things. We're a
set back in life, a big set back, a hard thing,
but defines who you are, how you react after that,
and the fact that you're turning the horrible situation that
you've found yourself into something positive and doing so good.
(33:23):
Your voice been your justice elderly and she passed away sadly.
Elaine Walker, Aboriginal elder was seeking justice for the murder
of three children in their community and we couldn't get
it through the courts and constant battles to try and
get justice. They've been fighting for over thirty years to
get justice for the three children that have been murdered.
(33:44):
She would often say to me, justice comes in in
many forms, and sometimes the justice is about telling our story,
telling our people's story. And I always hung on to
that that. I look at it from a policing point
of view. Justice had to be served through the courts,
but you are getting just in another way. You've been
given a platform and you're using it, and you're using
it to make a difference. And the person that committed
(34:08):
these offenses against you is the one that's sitting in
jail now and you're out here helping people. Yes, do
you take solace from that what that's turned your life into.
I do.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
It's hard sometimes I do still struggle with they're not guilty.
It's something that eats away at me. But I'm working
through therapy and through understanding that.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You're inter views in therapy.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
No definitely, no more.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Okay, sorry I shouldn't know. That's totally part of it.
But you've got to laugh.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Something absolutely, She asked me recently, because someone said to
me that because of our story and their family hearing
about Markoleefer. Their family believed them finally after all these years,
because she was abused by female pabitrader when she was younger.
So she said, do you take comfort from that? And
I said, I do. I do, but I still have
to work on my own hitting in the receiving, the
not guilty part of it. But I am working so
(34:57):
hard on that in everything, in every way. It's just
something that will I think for a very very long time.
I think when a perpetrator has had that much control
and impact on my life as a Michael life I
did on mine, it takes that long almost to reverse
all of that and to find myself and to realize
that even if I'm still living in the community and
still in the same area and I passed by the
houses that she abused in or the school, I am
(35:19):
safe now and I am the person that is not
going to allow that to impact me twenty four to seven.
So it's a constant work in progress.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, that's a significant thing that you're looking at yourself
being safe now that you're taking control of the situation
and yeah, this isn't going to happen to me. I'm
stronger than that, and I haven't been broken, So it's
really powerful messaging that you're getting across. Do you feel
supported by the community and your community and family.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Family, Absolutely, yep. Community I think has a lot a
long way to come and supporting survivors, and I think
a lot of communities will probably need to learn the same.
I think they're still stigma associated with survivors of sexual
abuse and the shame. I think that a lot of
people think that they know how to support survivors because
they'll send a nice message, but they don't realize that
they're silent speaks so much more than one message does
(36:08):
that it needs to really particularly in our community. The
religious community needs to be from top down, whereas the
leaders and the rabbi need to say this is how
we're going to support survivors, so that survivors feel safe
to come forward because they know they won't be shamed
or ostracized or they won't be looked at differently. So
I'm hoping that my speaking out being a religious woman
can impact that change. Whether I am merit enough to
(36:30):
see that happening in my lifetime, I don't know, but
I hope that I can create a legacy that people
can say a religious woman spoke out and still was
able to stay connected and still in the community. We
can do the same. We don't have to be so
afraid that other people are going to look down at
us and ostracize us. I will say that I have
felt people distancing from me because of that is something
that I have to live with, because of the choices
(36:50):
that I made to come out and still be in
the community. But I do not regret that. And the
fact is as well, is that I'm bringing up my
children with so much joy and love and no fear
and not the way that I was brought and just
a little funny thing that it might be amusing, it
might not be, but for me it is because it
really portrays to me that I have not traumatized my
children with my journey to justice. My second son, who's
(37:11):
now sixteen and a half, ran a camp in a
school camp like as a youth leader in the winter,
and he joked to me and he got back from
camp that they were going to do in activity searching
for Markolaefer. And he laughed at that, and I laughed
at that, and I said, no, you can't do that.
But that is showing how much I have not traumatized them,
that they can say her name, that they can joke
about an activity with that, that they cannot be afraid
(37:33):
to share that with me, knowing that I will still
laugh at it with their jo me exactly that, And
that proves to me that I have not traumatized my
children with what's happened to me. I've worked so hard
all my life, all those seventy five court hearings, that
my children should not know what's happening. Yes, they've got
a mom that runs for the dinner table to a
phone call or runs out the house to go around
the corner for filming, but they didn't quite know what
(37:54):
COVID hit. They did have to know a little bit more.
But at the same time, I still protected them, and
I still am protect them. So it's really just a
balanced way of letting them know that I'm a survivor,
not about not giving them any details of the abuse.
That this is the woman, the prison, this is the
prison she's in. News comes out about you know about
her here and there. I don't mind to share that
with them a little bit, but that's it. So just
(38:15):
a balanced way so they don't get impacted by my trolley.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, I think, if anything, that you're showing them the
way that you should live life, that you can come
back from things, you can you know, you don't have
to be broken, you can take control. Like I think
it's inspirational. The fact that you've also stayed connected with
your church and your community. That says something too, you like,
I would imagine that. I'm not judging anyone that does that,
(38:40):
but when it's happened in that environment they distance themselves
from the environment. The fact that you can stay in
contact and still work within that environment and operate within
that environment, I think that says a lot too.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yes, it's something that I've worked on for many years.
It's not something that's easy. There are times that I
feel very let down, I think for a good year
and a half two year, and still even now, I
feel quite betrayed and let down by the community as
a whole, not individuals, because the community as a whole
is incredible. I made a bonments for recently and I
received food packages and flowers and notes and messages, and
(39:13):
I was like, Wow, I haven't made a celebration kind
of thing in a couple of years. This is what
community is. It's beautiful, but at the same time that
part of the community is amazing, that part is not.
I wish that they would do the same celebrating or
the same support or the same acknowledgment for a survivor.
And how can I create that change to happen so
(39:34):
it's not so scary for them to do, so I do.
I will talk about it in conversations. I'll say the
premiere is coming up, or I'll say this, I'll say
that because I'm going to put it into their faces.
I'll post it on my WhatsApp status. You might not
like it, and you will for sure not come, but
I want you to know it's happening because we want
to change. We want to impact change. My sisters and
I are doing the documentary to impact change, to have
conversations too. We have the visibility, but we want something
(39:57):
to be happening from this visibility. We don't just want
to share story for entertainment. And that's why we met
with Australian Childs Foundation yesterday to see how we can
align with them and work with them and create impacting change.
And we'll keep doing that post the documentary coming out,
and I hope some of those changes can veer into
my community as well, and I know it does. There
was an author who was found out to be an abuser,
(40:17):
a Jewish author overseas. I called all the three schools
that my kids were in and said, throw the books out.
And they're kids books that kids read. I read them
as a teenager. My kids all read them. They loved
him as an author, and they did. They threw out
all the books and that's exactly and I'm not afraid
to request that of them. So it's changed that needs
(40:38):
to happen, and I'm hoping I can be a part
of that.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
The documentary you mentioned is coming out on stan.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I believe, yes, Surviving Markolefer is a stand original.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Okay, Well, if a story covers off on what you've
talked about here, I think it's something that's definitely worthwhile,
worthwhile watching. After everything that you've been through and your
sisters on this whole journey you've been through, How does
it feel to know that what you've been through is
going to play out on the big screen with this
(41:08):
documentary coming up.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
My sisters and I are quite a little bit nervous
for the documentary. It is very vulnerable, it is raw,
it is inspiring, It is an absolute rollercoaster. It is
ninety five minutes of absolute packed, packed minutes of our journey,
and we filmed for five years. To have that reduced
to ninety five minutes feels unfair, but it has done
(41:33):
so well and we are so hopeful that people see
the story for the whole, the entirety of the story,
not just any agenda. Abuse happens in every community, in
every religion, in every country all over the world, and
we broke the silence, and we hope we can inspire
others to do the same, and we can also impact
change others are aware of what it looks like to
(41:55):
be brought up in an abusive home and then be
abused and then come out the other side post trauma growth.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Well, congratulations to you and your sisters for having the
courage to do that. I know one of the people
behind the project, and I can't wait to wait to
watch it. I think it'll be really powerful. As you described, yes,
I think the fact that you are talking about it too,
and as you're talking, I'm going, yes, that's what we need.
That's why these offenders have been allowed to flourish because
(42:25):
sexual abuse, sexual assaults, it's confronting for people to talk
about when red flags are seen or just says an
icky feel or whatever. Something doesn't feel right, people are
uncomfortable talking about it. I think the fact that you're
coming out and talking about it and putting the light
on it is important and it might prevent further things
like this happening.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I really hope so, and I hope watching the documentary
and seeing what went on in our case can cause
people to think, Wow, that all went on under our
noses and we didn't notice. Let's notice more if there's
a child that's consistently coming to school with a multi
lunchbox or no food, or looking unkempt, something's going on,
whether the mother's just emotionally struggling or not, or if
(43:05):
the behaviors that are starting to look a little bit
suspicious and not appropriate for children. Go don't just blame
the child, look further, find out what's going on in
the family, who's having access to their child, what they're seeing,
and start understanding more that every child is a world
of their own, and if you don't notice, those children
step through the cracks. And it's upon us as adults
(43:26):
to notice the children in our lives.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
You weren't given the opportunity to do a victim impact
statement at the court, and I'm sorry just dropping you
on the spot here. What would you want to say
if she was sitting in the scene in the court
and you could face it down, and what would you
say there?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I'll answer that in a minute. I did do a
victim impact statement on TikTok in seven parts. It is graphic,
it is confronting, it is heart wrenching, but it's my truth.
And I did do it in seven parts, so seven
minutes long. And if I would have had a chance
to say that in good I guarantee that everyone would
have been crying. But what I would say to her
(44:04):
is I would probably list everything she did and without flinching,
because you can't shy away from what you did to me.
Those four rapes and indissent assault is like not even
a drop in the ocean of what you have done
to me, and then explain to her the impact of
all of that. But at the end to day, but
you cannot break me, and you cannot take away my life.
I'm taking it back what you took and I'm going
(44:26):
to show you that what you have done to me
is not going to break me and not going to
impact me the way you think it did or you.
It's so hard because she's never admitted any remorse, any guilt, anything.
The way she's stood in court was so confident, so arrogant.
It was like coming off her in waves. She stared
down the judge, she stared down the jury. She stood
(44:47):
in a way her body language was I've got this.
And even the prison guy said to us she had
her suitcases packed on the day of the verdict, that
she's going to Israel that night. That's how confident she
was and that's the confidence she ran the school. So
for me to be able to say you did and
list literally everything and the impact is just knocking a
little chink in the armor that she has of confidence. No,
you did all of that, and you're in jail because
(45:08):
of that. And my vicdim impact statement is a lot.
It's quite I say it without emotion, obviously, but it's
very it's really heart entering.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Powerful. Yeah, very very strightful in regards to what the
comments that the judge judge made on sensing and of
course he's referring to your two sisters, not yourself. There
is something that I won't bog us down with it,
but there was something that the judge made a comment
that the type of situation that you found yourself in,
(45:39):
so the evidence that you gave helped put into context
what happened to your sisters as well. So the evidence
that you gave something resonated within the jury that Okay,
well this is a pattern that's clearly occurred. So I
think you could probably take some comfort from that that, yeah, well,
everything else you did both sides, going out of the
(45:59):
Israel three or four times and completely pushing and pushing
you made a difference at the trial too, So I
don't think your evidence was ignored. They just who knows
why juries make decisions, but just the judge made these comments.
I wish to make the following brief observations. There's been
a significant delay more than fifteen years between when these
(46:22):
offenses were committed and when the trial was held, as
the victim impact statements were not made until after the
jury convicted Miss Lifer. The victims have been able to
address the ongoing impact of this offending has had on
them during the entire period. For each of them, it
has been profound and life changing. What they have described
comes as no surprise given the nature and seriousness of
(46:44):
the offending. Our criminal courts are regularly informed about the
serious and deliritous impact that sexual offending against young or
vulnerable has. To the extent that the victims feel a
personal sense of guilt or shame for what occurred, they
should not. They were completely innocent victims of the predatory
behavior of miss Lifer and it is she and she
(47:06):
alone who should be found guilty and ashamed for what occurred. So, yeah,
the judge got it. Yeah, it's not about the victims.
It's not about victim shame. It's one person to blame
blame for this whole thing. Two. Unfortunately, there's a lot
of victims. Yeah, that they have been through similar situations
(47:26):
as yourself and survivors, people who are fighting for justice
like you had to fight for justice. What message would
you give to them if they're feeling like they're not
going to get justice, they're hitting the head against a
brick wall basically and just fighting the system. What sort
of advice? What things would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I don't have any regrets doing what I did, even
though I didn't get justice. I believe that every single
time a victim survivor has the opportunity, has the strength
to go to court. They are forcing the abuser to
be held accountable on some level, even if it doesn't
result in it guilty plea. So for anyone that has
a strength and ability to do so, keep going for it.
(48:05):
Our justice system needs us victim survivors to help them
bring the predators and abusers to justice.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
So don't give up good advice. How's your life now?
You've talked about what you're doing. How are you within
yourself after being through because what you've been through is
terribly traumatic for an extended period of time and fighting,
how do you look at life now? That's probably a
better question.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I think it's interesting for me because I think because
of all the time I've been through my life, childhood
and adulthood and Markelaifa, I was in quite a severe
state of association and numbness, and interestingly enough, the verdict
broke that it caused this emotion to come out because
it was that impactful, And since then I would say
that I've had probably a healthier ability to process really
(48:50):
difficult stuff. And funnily enough, post the trial, maybe because
I've had to prove to myself that Michael Life had
did abuse me. Despite the court finding lots, I've remembered
so much more of what she's done. It's becoming clearer
and clearer to me. It means obviously, I'm mentally able
to remember a lot more and able to understand the
impact and the depth of the level of her abuse
(49:10):
and how evil she was, and then work through it
in therapy, so coming out the other side. So I
have hope that one day soon she will not be
the first thing I think of and the last thing
I think of every day, which does still happen just
because of the nature of the space I'm in and
the healing that I'm trying to do, but I do.
There has been maybe two moments in the last year
where I've noted and I've shared publicly that I had
(49:33):
an event or a couple of hours where she wasn't
the first thing that that was in my mind, or
she wasn't existent at all. And that's hope is hope,
and that's what I'm aiming for more and more of.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
She got fifteen years I think in was it fifteen
years since.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Eleven point five and fifteen?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yes? Do you think that was long enough? Now that's
a dumb question. You'd never think it's long enough.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
It's I think, looking at the sentencing table that was
set out for our case, I don't know if they
are set out like that for others. No, I don't
think it was long enough. The amount of charges eighteen charges,
some of them very very serious charges. My issue is
I don't trust for a minute that she will not
leave jail or go back to Israel and abuse again.
(50:16):
And there are many that think.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Like that well, with the past history.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
And her lack of remorse and accountability, and I just
will do everything I can to make sure that wherever
she goes to live, the people there know she's not
a safe person.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I think that's fair enough. If people want to reach
out to you all the type of things that you're doing,
you said you're speaking up. Where where's the best place
to find you?
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Instagram breaking the silence? Now is my name and TikTok
Nicole Meyer so easy? People contact me on their Facebook LinkedIn.
I'm pretty much everywhere Nicole Meyer everywhere else.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, well, look, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat, and
I was worried about you. Happen to take you through
reliving what's occurred. But I've walked away from this inspired.
Like really, I think when bad things happen, how people
react to that. There is a testament to the person
that you are, how hard you fought for justice. I
(51:08):
know how painful that can be, and it breaks many
a person trying to get justice. But you just continued
and hung in there, and you know you didn't get
the verdict that you wanted by the jury, but I
think you've got justice in so many other ways, making
the person responsible for impacting on your life accountable and
(51:29):
so full credit to you. Thank you, it's been a
great chack.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Cheers.
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life, the average person has never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
In part two of my chat with Nicole Meyer, we
spoke about the personal impact on her and the two
sisters because of the actions of the school principle, malcol Lifa,
and how harrowing the seven week trial was on her
and the sisters, how it felt to finally face down
her abuser, and what lessons can be learnt from her
experiences so this type of despicable crime doesn't occur again.
(01:09):
As I said it was a very difficult conversation to have,
but it's one I think is important to talk about.
Nicole Meyer, welcome back to I Catch Kill. It's part two.
Thank you. I'm still just processing all that you told
us in part one and the battles that you had
to go through and your determination to get a person
(01:30):
just to be put before the courts. So we're talking
about market Leifa, the principal at the school that you
were attending as a student, and then your battle. So
I think something like seventy five court appearances to get
the courts in Israel to approve her extradition back to Australia.
I want to take it to that point in time now.
(01:52):
So once you were notified about the extradition, I would
imagine yourself and your sisters and the people around you
supporting You would have thought, yes, this is a step
in the right direction. But again that's just the start
of the efforts to get justice. What happened after you
were informed about the extradition.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Of course, we spoke to prosecutors in Israel and they
did let us know then that Michaelaifel will be extradited.
They can't give us an exact approximation of when and
not only that they legally cannot tell us when she's
on the plane, and we were like, really, we can't
even know when she's in the sky. Like that was
really difficult, So we just kept in touch with them.
(02:32):
It was I don't think anything major happened there made
it been a couple mentions. The main thing that had
to happen from then in Israel was getting the paper
signed for extradition by the Justice minister. It had to
happen now, that in itself is a process. And all
we heard, and I'm going to go to the day
that she arrived, all we heard was that it was
a foot race literally because the skies were closing because
(02:54):
of COVID ah right, and they had to get the
paper signed and get her on that plane out of
Israel to Australia because literally there were no flights coming
to Australia from Israel. Pasted her flight. It was nothing
short of miraculous as she actually got on that plane
and the paper was literally signed, how I can mission it,
and then racing and even the detective that Flewever were
not even there for forty eight hours, they picked her
(03:16):
up and they put her on the plane bought her
to Australia, and I remember the female detective said, you
are arrested on Australian soil. Was like the moment to
say to her, after all these years, you are arrested.
And all I remember of the night that she came
back is because of that leaked photo from some random
person in Israel that went worldwide, we knew that she's
(03:39):
on the plane. And then it was all the detectives,
you know, the experts online trying to find which flight,
and then it was all the news in the airport,
but it was COVID so we couldn't go to the airport,
and the reporters said all their masks on and they
were standing by the window, and we had one very
kind reporter I'm actually meeting later today because she was
a big part of our journey and she held her
phone to the wall of the.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Very crazy.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I was on the live. My sisters were on the
call as well. We're on what's that video? And we
just watched the plane land, the whole thing, talking the
whole time, And that part will be in the documentary.
You'll see parts of that being filmed called Surviving Malkalofa,
because I had the whole filming crew in my house
filming me watching her land. It was a huge It
was the most shocking, surreal moment to feel a physical
(04:23):
sense of her being back on the soil. It's still
something I feel now. Because she felt unreachable, she felt untouchable,
she felt like she was always evading and escaping. It
felt so It was so grounding to finally feel that
she's here. She can't escape anymore. She's here, She's on
Australian soil. It didn't matter that I didn't know which prison.
(04:45):
And then the next morning I heard her voice for
the first time because she was arranged. They go to
court and they get you know, how do you plead
or whatever words the judge says, and that was all
the courts.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, were you in the courts or were the courts closed?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Closed? Everything online?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Okay? Well, first of all, thankfully that you got here
on the plane before our COVID because that I'm sure
you would have hung in there, but that would have
been a much longer story because the borders borders shut down.
Her first appearance at court, she wasn't granded. Bao kept
in custody, Yes, okay. Were you in contact with the
police and the prosecutors about the trial and how long
(05:21):
that might take.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
So once she arrived, we probably met with the opp
and the people that were needed with us, and we
had a couple of meetings and we were told there'll
be a committal hearing in twenty twenty one in September,
and that was the first court appearance for us. So
we had to then realize, Wow, this is real, this
is happening there, this is actually happening. I remember them
saying at the time, absolutely no news. There is a
(05:42):
gag out of the secondary lands on this country. You
are the absolutely can't make you cannot say comments, you
cannot give your opinions, you cannot say anything to the news.
And that was it. We went utterly silent. So there
was like one news crew that tried to follow me
and try to get a statement fast the committal and
they didn't bother coming again because they knew we couldn't talk.
We actually couldn't say a word.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Well potentially could the jeopardize absolute suations?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Absolutely, So my sisters and I very quietly it was COVID,
so we to wear masks and we were like, oh,
can we just take it off in the building, not
to you get into the room. It was done remotely,
like not in the court, orne in the opp's office,
and we sat down for a couple of days, each
of us giving our evidence. Only the defense lawyer the
prosecutor barely stood up because it's the committal you're trying
to show, prove that this court can be given.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And for people, I think they'd understand the committal process,
but just showing that there's sufficient evidence for it to get.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
The trial to be committed to trial, yes, And then
that was over, and then we had to wait for judges' decision,
which was pretty it's going to happen, like pretty certain.
But at the same time, I just found some journal
notes just randomly yesterday on the day that we got
the notification that's been committed to trial. And how I
felt then, did.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You found some of your own journals? Tell us what
were you thinking?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It was actually when I read it yesterday or sad
because it was like I had so much hope for
justice and I was so excited for justice. It was
tinged with sadness. But also I could see back in
twenty twenty one, how huge that was that it was
committed to trial, even though we were certain there's always
a little bit of we had so many times it
was almost and never happened that almost could even happen
all the way to the day trial starts. So the
(07:12):
fact that it was committed was incredible. It was committed
for August twenty twenty two, my birthday, actually the day
it was meant to start, strange star birth before it
was pushed off the day before. Why the defense team
and I guess prosecution had so many pre trial discussions
that they still needed to talk about weeks and weeks
(07:33):
they had already done until then wasn't enough and the judge,
I guess, did not have availability to allow for more
pre trial conversations to happen. So trial was pushed off
to February. That was a huge blow. We had all
moved out of home, we were mentally prepared, we had
all been preparing emotionally for trial, and to have a
pushed off at such a late stage was crushing. It
(07:54):
felt like it could not get any worse, And I
know many victim survivors go through this a lot of times.
Trials I postponed orrijourned, and it's just it's something we
can't control. It's the system, it works. We understand that,
but it still is impactful regardless.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think we can't control it, but I think more
effort could be done to keep them on track because
I've seen trials that, yeah, have been put off, and
as you described it from a victim's point of view,
your whole life is focused on this. You've rearranged your
life and then it gets put off on short notice
because defense need more time to prepare their defense, or
(08:28):
even prosecutors need more time things like that. We've really
got to be conscious of the impact that has on people,
like what you're going through. So it's been delayed. It
finally comes up the trial. It talk us through the
emotions and what took place there.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So because we now knew it was actually happening second
time round, my sisters and I again moved out of
home because we need to be fully focused. We cannot
be a parent at the same time as giving evidence
to the extent that we needed to. So we just
moved to a quest near in South Bank so we
can get to the city easy every day. And once
this didn't come full time and we literally just knuckle
(09:08):
down and read our statements and hardly talk to each other.
Family members would come visit us, like just have dinner,
our play game or something to lighten the atmosphere. And
then it was day one and we were video like
journaling the whole time. So we have videos of us
three together that morning of the afternoon of how we
felt post like we just there. And then it was like,
(09:29):
we are going to walk in together. We are proud,
we are going to walk with our backs up, and
this is our moment to finally face the woman who
has invaded our every waking moment for years and over
a decade or two decades, including the abuse. And we're
going to go and seek justice. We're going to do this.
(09:50):
And so we yeah, we all got dressed, we were
all in the room, We all left the quest together.
We walked to court. There was a huge camera crew
outside taking pictures and everything like that. So it felt
very surreal.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Had you become accustomed to that at this stage or
this was at another level again when it got to this, This.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Was a higher level. But we had been so many
years around media and even the ABC documentary that we
did back in twenty seventeen eighteen, that we just knew
how to kind of like zona out, and we also
knew how to boundaries. We also knew how to manage
the media. So yes to one, No, we can do
you after or can we all just have you together
in one room so we can just see we had Yeah,
we'd become accustomed to knowing how to handle that. And
(10:29):
also we couldn't talk as much as we would have
loved to, We couldn't say a word. So we just
walked right into court and went to level one in
counter court.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Making a statement, walking in proud and.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
With our family members all supporting us and coming with
all our siblings came and we went and spoke with
the opp and they said, all right, Nicole, you're up first.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Is that the first time you've seen her since she's
been extra di either back to in person, so.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
This is a funny thing. Yeah, we actually asked her
for a screen. So I felt, and I don't know
if you can understand this, but the respect for the
judge was huge. It was like heavy and deep in
the room. So I felt it would be so disrespectful
if I turned my chair around to look at Marko Laifer,
and I've asked for a screen, so I couldn't do it.
(11:17):
So I felt her and I heard her voice because
she's like, oh, I want to watch Nicole.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I want to see her.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So they had to go set up a whole computer
for her to be able to see me giving evidence
because she couldn't see me physically. And they did that,
and I looked at the defense lawyer, I look at
the prosecutor, I looked at the jury. On day two,
I slightly turned my chair. I was like, I'm not
going through without staring her down. That's not happening. And
she did this very side as she's walk turned around
out of the dock, like we caught eyes for a minute.
(11:43):
Like side, very evil, very intentional, very deep. But then
on the third day I just didn't care anymore and
I just fully turned around and looked at her right
up and down and then turned back again.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Absolutely it was.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It was, and she was leaving to go back to jail,
and I am free, and I can walk out this
courtroom and join my family and my community.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah. I can imagine how that must must feel, how
empowering that must feel.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
It was very necessary for me to look at her
because she loomed and she still does at time so
big in my mind because of the impact of her abuse.
So I have had to see her and realize that
I am here and you are there like there were.
It was very necessary for my own healing and my
own journey. I hadn't seen her in person since the
day she pulled me out of class and said, what's happening,
(12:31):
So that that amount of time working around trying to
bring someone to justice and not actually seeing them, because
she pulled that trick in Israel, there was all the
camera crews. She was meant to come to court that
day because obviously because we were there, she decided she's
not coming in person, and she didn't come in person again. Right, Okay,
So she had been attending in person until then and
doing the whole fiasco of pretending to be unwell, pretending
(12:52):
to fall down, pretending to be sick, and all that
kind of stuff, which she didn't try once in Australia.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, all of the nebulations and little game that she
played or obviously didn't work out, got a back here.
How long we were in the witness box giving.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Evidence three full days and one half day or three days.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Court's intimidating for anyone. I don't care what they say.
If people say they're not nervous before that, they're getting
the witness box as stupid. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's a
natural reaction, very big thing that you're talking about. How
did you find the experience?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
It feels like the whole court process is designed to
make the victim feel like they've done something wrong. And
that's what's sad about it, because we should feel empowered,
we should feel we have a chance to say our
whole truth, not a reducted, very very limited truth, which
is unfortunately what happened, and what happened very deeply to me.
And I walked in and said in the stand. As
(13:47):
I sat in my seat, I was giving a glass
of water, and it was just the feeling in the
room was so intense, so quiet, because when my sister's
like get evidence, it wasn't open court because of the
sensitive but still I counted thirty people in the room,
despite the fact that it was despite that I had
to because that was just my way of gauging everyone.
(14:09):
The jury members looked interested, the judge barely glanced at me,
and unfortunately, I will say this, he did not look
at us the entire trial, even at the plea, even
at the sentencing. I think judges have a right to
be and they need to be unbiased and impartial. But
we're humans and they can, and there have been judges
(14:30):
they can say thank you, Nicole when they step down,
or that was very brave of you, and that doesn't
mean anything. That just means they're chronowledging that you are
a human victim that has gone through horrific abuse and
you've come up to stand up and talk about it
in the most clinical terms, which is really what I
find what the stand did to me and I'm sure
to my sisters into other victims as well. It can
(14:51):
narrow down six and a half years of abuse to
four charges of rape and one of indecent assault, which
is the whole seveny issues around. So it wasn't anything specific,
and it can literally narrow even further to time whether
exactly how far certain acts were and what exactly meant
bringing a medical expert to prove that it was actually
this particular way and not that particular way, and it
(15:15):
really boils it down to such a clinical nature. There's
not enough context given there's not enough understanding of this
type of woman and the control she had and the
impact in every area, and how she was always around
and there none of that was explained in a way
that a jury could understand how this could actually happen.
These rapes don't occur in a vacuum, and unfortunately that's
what it does. And I understand, you've got to prove
(15:36):
beyond reasonable doubts. You have to narrow down and really
ask the hard questions and get right in there. But
I think in doing so, I think the prosecution didn't
give enough context around mulcut Lifer. Yes, around our background, yes,
how she rund the school, but not particularly for my story.
And I also understand my story was extensive. She abused
(15:57):
me hundreds of times. He got boiled down to only
five charges given to me. I didn't really get a chance.
I didn't get a fair chance to yeah, and to
discuss the extent of it for sure, not so I
walked out of three days not feeling that I did
justice for myself. I didn't feel I had a chance
to say my story. And I think that is the
(16:18):
misconception that a lot of victim survivors have when going
to court. They think we're going to get up there
and we're going to just it's going to all pour
out and we can talk. And it's not it's so scripted,
and it's so careful. And you say one word wrong mistrial,
You talk about one incident, you're not supposed to mistrial.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And we were given those wor pressure, isn't it so much?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And and we are my sisters and I are people
that understand the court systems, have been through legal systems
and other different things that were going on in our
lives and in Israel. My sister and I had attended
a court case in America to support a victim there,
so we were well aware of how it worked there.
And it was like we knew we knew questions to ask,
we knew what to say, we knew what to wear,
we knew how to look. We felt confident. We were
waiting for this for so long, we prepared, we were
(16:56):
very switched on. And still still it felt like I
did not really have my chance to say my story.
And the jury don't really know what Marco life had
did to me.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
They just don't.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
They're walking away things. Was that really a rape or
was that not really a rape? Well I'm not sure
because the doctor said this, and the defense lawyer said this,
and Nicole said this, so we'll just give I don't
know they're thinking, but this is all the different things
I've thought since then.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you're not
the first person that's gott in the witness box and
got out and felt that way. It's a shame that
the courts doesn't allow. You know, We've got a system
that set up. You know, people say it's good. I
think it can always be improved, but I do understand
what sometimes I've got to out of the witness box
and not with the pressure that you're under in regards
(17:44):
to being a victim reporting a crime that's occurred to you,
but get out of the witness box and think I
wasn't even allowed to tell if I just know, I've
got all these legal people sitting here, and I'm sitting
there thinking I could answer this if I was just
allowed to talk and explain the situation. So the context
is important. Another issue that you talk there. I think
it is time that we change. And it's not the
(18:04):
criticism of the judge that was sitting on the trial there,
but judges in general, I think we should allow a
little bit of humanity in the court. So I've seen
it time and time again in murder trials at a
high level supreme court where there doesn't seem any humanity
there for the victims. And I understand there needs to
be an independence and you know, it's not about the
(18:27):
emotion of it, it's about the facts. But a little
bit of humanity would go a long way, wouldn't it.
Absolutely Sorry, It's probably difficult too with a jury there
because the judge doesn't want to appear too sympathetic to
the victim because that'll be the judge that will indicate
that the judge believes what the person is saying. Perhaps
(18:47):
that's the reason, but yeah, I think we miss it.
The courts are there to set or to represent and
provide justice for the community. I think we've got to
make some adjustments.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I think judges and general should have very specific trauma
informed training for them specifically, and that is something that
I know a lot of victim survivors feel because judges
can make some really awful comments that can really impact
the victims, particularly in their closings, particularly to even to
a victim when they say something the way that they
(19:19):
phrase certain words, and then it leaves us victims go
through the system thinking like we just had an awful judge.
Now I don't think we had an awful judge. I
think they did an incredible case, very tight, was very
on top of it, so authoritative, And I think that
defense lawyers have a job to do and I respect
that job. Maybe not with sex crimes, but I respect
(19:39):
defense lawyers that they have a job to do. But
they also often don't toe the line the smoking, the laughing,
the comments, the mutterings, the way the condess sending. They
have a job to do, do it, but do it respectfully,
because you're dealing with someone who's traumatized and being abused
and has worked so hard to be on that stand.
So I think there needs to be a whole, a
(20:00):
whole change with the way that the legal system works
in regards to survivors of sexual abuse and of course
family violence and other things. And that has to come
with just some really specific training given to the judges,
defense prosecutions, social workers so that victims feel more supported
through the process. And that is something I feel very
passionately about and I hope that I can join and
I'm looking to always and I am interested in joining
(20:22):
a round table discussions around that legal reform that's needed
to allow victims to feel more supported and have more
rights in the legal system.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think it's a very important to important thing. You
don't want victims traumatized by the court experience or further traumatized.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And many victims say that the core experience is an
additional trauma. It's not just a retraumatization, it's an additional one.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You mentioned defense and said, yeah, they're doing their job.
I agree, but some of them. Yeah, I give them
the lad that you that there is a job, and
a very important job. But I've seen defense that solicitors,
barristers go after victims and I just think it's not balanced.
So they're causing more trauma by the way they approach it.
And you mentioned that it's the subtle things that are
(21:07):
hard to quantify, but the little smirk or the rolling
of the eyes and that type of thing. You're very
much aware of it when you're seeing in the witness box,
and that that type of behavior is betrayed to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
The trial went for seven weeks and then the nine weeks.
I think you said, by the time the jury came
back after you gave evidence for three days, were you
allowed to sit in and watch the rest of the trial.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Legally, I think I could for dusting Ellie, but because
of risk of recross examination or a retrial, they kept
doing until Dusting Ellie finished. No, and after that we
were allowed to listen online. They preferred us not to
be in the court room, right, as, are you going
to stop me? Like I could prefer I know I can,
but of course I respected them and I didn't go
in even though you talk tough, but I'm too respectful. Yeah,
(21:59):
so we just like, yeah, most days we were in
court and everyone listening on our own individual devices. The
defense lawyer jumped up and down about that we have
to be in separate room. So on the first day
we are all in separate room, and then we're like,
stuff it, we're not going to talk. It's not a party.
We're sitting to listen. We're listening in the same room
in our own devices, and that is fine, Okay. So
we did that. The social worker was amazing. She was
with us most days, supporting us. There wasn't one time
(22:21):
that there was a question. Every I thought it was
a verdict. So it was like, oh, mad rush. Everyone
went up to the court room and the prosecution and
the prosecutors like the victims can come in, and the
judges like, I'm not waiting for them. He's like, they're
in the room right next door. So we came in.
It was just a question. But that was good. Really
she got in.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Okay. Now when it got to the jury has come back,
where were you and how were you notified?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
My sisters were in court with eye. It was nine days.
Everyone was on edge.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
So the jury was out for nine days.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Nine days. The prosecution was on edge, the social worker
was on edge, the police was on edge. We were
in court every single day. There was news outside. You
could feel the buzz and there everyone's waiting day after
day after day. First weekend came and we're like, surely,
only it's going to happen on Monday. Now, next weekend came,
We're like, okay, the second Monday, the third Monday, we're like,
it's going to be today. We're all going to dress
(23:07):
and the same things we were on the first day
of trial, because that's momentous for us. It's going to
be today, And it was. We didn't know when at
three forty five my phone was a designated phone call.
The prosecutor called. I said, a verdicts in. I said,
three o'clock. Verdicts in at three forty five, and that's
filmed for the Docky. They allowed just one camera in
to film us then, and it was like we were shaking.
Everyone ran and met in the corridor. The prosecutor, the
(23:28):
social worker, the police detective were all together and we're like,
it's happening. It's happening. I said to Elsa, she's the prosecutor.
I said to her, if I get not guilty and
I pass out, do you want to get an adbultance.
I had this very unsettling intuition from the second I
stepped off giving evidence that I'm going to get not guilty,
and my sisters remember it, and the prosecution remembers it,
(23:49):
and you'll see it on the doco. It's there because
I felt it. I don't know why. Sometimes you just
have a sixth sense about something and I felt it deeply,
and I didn't want to feel it. Yeah, I didn't
want to feel it, but I did. And when we
walked in the courtroom was packed to the rafters. There
was not a single seat available, and it was so quiet,
it was like pin drop silence. And with a room
(24:11):
pack full of people, it was it didn't make sense
that it was so quiet, but that's how tense and
anticipatory it was. And then the knock knock, and the
judge comes in, and then he calls in the jury
and then he says a couple of things and very short,
but then he says and in regards to the verdict,
if anyone is going to lose their composure or make
(24:31):
a distraction, they can leave as well. And that's when
I knew one there's a not guilty in that, because
he's saying that to me or to one of us.
Because and also on top of that, the jury came in.
Not one jury member looked at us, not one. That
is not a good sign sign anyone knows that. And
we kept trying to catch their eye. We were right
(24:52):
there and they were right there. They refused to look
at us. And then the jury foreman got up and
said not guilty. And it was just a shock to
my entire system, like in se so not guilty, not guilty,
not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. And then guilty. And
then the first guilty you can almost hear the whole
cool room breathe because it was like, Okay, she's guilty,
(25:14):
even just one, she's guilty. She's not going to be
going back to Israel today. It was like everyone took
a breath, and then they just read there's a couple
not guilty, sprinkled in with the rest of the chargers,
and then guilty, and then the drudge breads his stuff
and then he says, just charge with the jury, thanks
them for the service, tells them they don't have to
do jury forever many year, more years. And then we
all leave the room and go downstairs. And then there's
(25:34):
like fifteen people stuffed in the left and I'm just
like not sure what I'm feeling. My sisters are broken
harder for me, so they're in tears. I'm not in tears.
I'm in shock. I'm in such shock. We go down
to the room together. We spend a few minutes alone.
Then the whole team comes in. They talk. I don't
think I can remember anything they said. It was flying
above my head. They all left the room. We know
the news is waiting for us downstairs. We prepared for
(25:56):
not guilty, guilty and half and half verdict. So we
had our statements prepared that day. We prepared them knowing
what the different outcomes might be. And my sisters were
just collapsing, and I said to them, guys, we've got
to go. I'm okay, We've got to go, and they couldn't,
and I was the strong one for them. I stood
there and was like, guys, we have to go outside.
(26:16):
We can't keep them waiting. It's already five. We need
to go. I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be okay.
And I just kept saying that. I don't know what strength
I had at that moment to say that and not
to collapse in my grief and just like not want
to face the world, but I just I gave them
strength that I was okay, that we will go outside,
we will face the media, and we will do this.
And eventually, within a few minutes they saw that I
(26:39):
was okay and we walked out.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Amazing how you can react that way. And we'll talk
a little bit about that towards the end. So what
we've got here a situation and people fully understand the
three of you who have been united in this fight
to get justice, and then you've got a jury coming back.
And I know that you've described it other than I
can describe it, But the pin dropped the tension of
(27:02):
a packed court room, everyone's baited breath waiting for it
to come out, and the first lot is not guilty,
not guilty, and then finally get guilty. Your sisters would
have been satisfied the fact that the allegations that they
made have been proven at court, But the fact that
they're so upset, I think is quite endearing to the
(27:25):
fact of what you mean to them, because they couldn't
take comfort from their decisions because of what happened to you. Yeah, okay,
you've prepared, your prepared your media statements. Yes, and that
you've gone out there. How is that fronting the media
after all these years? This is a long, as you said,
over decades from the time the abuse until finally you
(27:45):
get the words.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
It wasn't hard for me because I was still in
that mode of I'm okay. Ellie and Dussy were a
little bit more emotional. They were speaking because you could
see they were feeling it. He answered a couple questions.
Was over pretty fast. They followed us. We kept trying
to walk away. They kept following, We kept trying to
walk away, and then we're just kind of like like
lost chicken. We're like, what do we do now? Where
do we go? I think my sister's husband booked us
a place to stay for the night, and we knew
(28:08):
we were going to be together that night. And then
I think the doccer crew wanted a bit of us,
so we did a bit with them and then kind
of just like flitted away and we went back to
where we were staying, and we had a lot of
news coming from overseas, and we're like, actually, we're just
not talking to anyone tonight. We actually can say that
now we don't have to talk. We can talk to
everyone tomorrow. We're not talking to anyone tonight. Then Ellie said, okay, fine,
just one is really a reporter because they're relentless, and
(28:30):
it was the one that was like just not English
second language. So we ended up just like bursting into
laughter by putting her a mute and then laughing and laughing,
and then trying to give the question back to her
and then going back, sorry I didn't hear it got disconnected,
and then laughing again because the way she asked the questions,
was just beyond when you're that tired and that emotional,
beyond exhausted, where we have the best laughs and sisters
the best And then one sister said that she's not
(28:52):
after doing media the next day, she needs to break.
So Ellie and I did the project and again this
is all me, still running on a journal and still
in shock, still fronting strong and everything and everyone and presenting,
and then the next morning after Sydney for passover, so
I didn't have a chance to process any of it
because it was bang bang, bang bang, as my life
(29:13):
normally is.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yes, you spoke to your family like your husband and
your kids did. How did they receive it? Do we
get their mum and wife back? Now? Is that?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I don't know if my kids felt that way. I
think that I feel like my family because I wasn't
talking about it because I wasn't such shock, kind of
not tiptoeing but kind of not really bringing it up.
And we're heading straight into a Jewish festival, so and
those overseas visitors coming as well as us Sydney, so well,
I was hardly there. I think I was hardly present
most of that festival. I was dealing with the grief
and the shock and the loss and all of that
(29:46):
sadness that was coming up. But it was devastating. It
was absolutely devastating, and it still is to this day.
It hasn't changed because all I wanted was justice and
I didn't get that justice.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Can you take comfort from the fact that your sister's
got justice? And really, if it's you're in this together,
but is it? Can you take any comfort from it?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I can? But what a lot of victim survivors who
don't do their statements in groups or any others I
have got and not guilty will know that a lot
of other steps to justice are denied. So when the
plea hearing happened and my sister's got got up there
to give their victim impact statement, that was the worst
day for me. That was the twenty eighth of June.
And I will never forget that day. In a way,
it's even worse than hearing.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Not guilty, because you couldn't get.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I was completely invalidated. I almost didn't feel like I
should even be in caught, couldn't get up to give
a victim of state, You're.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Not real I'm gone.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
That's it. I'm out of the case completely, the sentencing,
none of the whole sentencing, like not a single charge
for me, and that she was in prison because of
something she did to me. So yes, comfort in the
collective sense, but on a personal level, deeply broken.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I could imagine that then on you quiet moments, just
stepping away on your own thinking about it, that you
said how driven you were for justice, and then just
just not at that point in time.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Recently, I've actually created a hashtag for myself for my TikTok,
and it's my voice is My Justice. And that's literally
been what I've used in the last two weeks because
I've realized I've had to slowly, very slowly understand I'm
not going to get justice. That even if a whole
bunch of new chargers came up, even if it did
get to the opp they wouldn't run a new trial,
and they told me they can't because of the contamination
(31:24):
and the high profile nature. They can't. So even if
they accepted the statement, it doesn't matter. So I'm not
going to get that chance for justice. So my voice
is my justice, and Marco Laifer will not shut me up.
So I was very quiet for a couple of months,
and I think my sisters told me after they were
worried about me, that I would never recover and come
out of it, still continuing life and gym and kids,
but very quiet in any other sense. And then that's it.
(31:47):
I stepped up, stepped out, and I've been advocating, spoken
to the Prime Minister last year, been part of National
Survivor's Day in good Faith foundation with the shild and
Childhood Foundation. Started studying law this year. So I am
just like, I'm not allowing that pain to completely derail
my life. Instead, I've switched it around and I've become
a voice for survivors. I've spoken at many events. I've
(32:08):
advocating and wanting to keep advocating as well as while
I start studying law so that I can get into
the system and help victims from the inside, not just
from the advocacy space. So I really turned around that
pain to do something very very constructive and funnily enough,
TikTok helped me a lot with that. I opened TikTok
and just started talking and people started sharing. Started absolutely
(32:29):
there's a whole incredible community of survivors there. The amount
of particularly older generation, old of me. I just turned forty,
disclosing to me for their first time on TikTok that
they were abused when they were younger is incredible. And
I've created that space that people feel safe to share
knowing that there's someone there that understands them. And I've
met some people in person through TikTok, like Australians. I've
invited some to National Survivors Day as well to give
(32:51):
them the opportunity to be in a room full of
survivors at an event. And I really have used my
voice to get my own justice.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
That's worth while and what they think is amazing, how
people and people that sit in this chair because I
hear a lot of stories of different things. We're a
set back in life, a big set back, a hard thing,
but defines who you are, how you react after that,
and the fact that you're turning the horrible situation that
you've found yourself into something positive and doing so good.
(33:23):
Your voice been your justice elderly and she passed away sadly.
Elaine Walker, Aboriginal elder was seeking justice for the murder
of three children in their community and we couldn't get
it through the courts and constant battles to try and
get justice. They've been fighting for over thirty years to
get justice for the three children that have been murdered.
(33:44):
She would often say to me, justice comes in in
many forms, and sometimes the justice is about telling our story,
telling our people's story. And I always hung on to
that that. I look at it from a policing point
of view. Justice had to be served through the courts,
but you are getting just in another way. You've been
given a platform and you're using it, and you're using
it to make a difference. And the person that committed
(34:08):
these offenses against you is the one that's sitting in
jail now and you're out here helping people. Yes, do
you take solace from that what that's turned your life into.
I do.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
It's hard sometimes I do still struggle with they're not guilty.
It's something that eats away at me. But I'm working
through therapy and through understanding that.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
You're inter views in therapy.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
No definitely, no more.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Okay, sorry I shouldn't know. That's totally part of it.
But you've got to laugh.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Something absolutely, She asked me recently, because someone said to
me that because of our story and their family hearing
about Markoleefer. Their family believed them finally after all these years,
because she was abused by female pabitrader when she was younger.
So she said, do you take comfort from that? And
I said, I do. I do, but I still have
to work on my own hitting in the receiving, the
not guilty part of it. But I am working so
(34:57):
hard on that in everything, in every way. It's just
something that will I think for a very very long time.
I think when a perpetrator has had that much control
and impact on my life as a Michael life I
did on mine, it takes that long almost to reverse
all of that and to find myself and to realize
that even if I'm still living in the community and
still in the same area and I passed by the
houses that she abused in or the school, I am
(35:19):
safe now and I am the person that is not
going to allow that to impact me twenty four to seven.
So it's a constant work in progress.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, that's a significant thing that you're looking at yourself
being safe now that you're taking control of the situation
and yeah, this isn't going to happen to me. I'm
stronger than that, and I haven't been broken, So it's
really powerful messaging that you're getting across. Do you feel
supported by the community and your community and family.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Family, Absolutely, yep. Community I think has a lot a
long way to come and supporting survivors, and I think
a lot of communities will probably need to learn the same.
I think they're still stigma associated with survivors of sexual
abuse and the shame. I think that a lot of
people think that they know how to support survivors because
they'll send a nice message, but they don't realize that
they're silent speaks so much more than one message does
(36:08):
that it needs to really particularly in our community. The
religious community needs to be from top down, whereas the
leaders and the rabbi need to say this is how
we're going to support survivors, so that survivors feel safe
to come forward because they know they won't be shamed
or ostracized or they won't be looked at differently. So
I'm hoping that my speaking out being a religious woman
can impact that change. Whether I am merit enough to
(36:30):
see that happening in my lifetime, I don't know, but
I hope that I can create a legacy that people
can say a religious woman spoke out and still was
able to stay connected and still in the community. We
can do the same. We don't have to be so
afraid that other people are going to look down at
us and ostracize us. I will say that I have
felt people distancing from me because of that is something
that I have to live with, because of the choices
(36:50):
that I made to come out and still be in
the community. But I do not regret that. And the
fact is as well, is that I'm bringing up my
children with so much joy and love and no fear
and not the way that I was brought and just
a little funny thing that it might be amusing, it
might not be, but for me it is because it
really portrays to me that I have not traumatized my
children with my journey to justice. My second son, who's
(37:11):
now sixteen and a half, ran a camp in a
school camp like as a youth leader in the winter,
and he joked to me and he got back from
camp that they were going to do in activity searching
for Markolaefer. And he laughed at that, and I laughed
at that, and I said, no, you can't do that.
But that is showing how much I have not traumatized them,
that they can say her name, that they can joke
about an activity with that, that they cannot be afraid
(37:33):
to share that with me, knowing that I will still
laugh at it with their jo me exactly that, And
that proves to me that I have not traumatized my
children with what's happened to me. I've worked so hard
all my life, all those seventy five court hearings, that
my children should not know what's happening. Yes, they've got
a mom that runs for the dinner table to a
phone call or runs out the house to go around
the corner for filming, but they didn't quite know what
(37:54):
COVID hit. They did have to know a little bit more.
But at the same time, I still protected them, and
I still am protect them. So it's really just a
balanced way of letting them know that I'm a survivor,
not about not giving them any details of the abuse.
That this is the woman, the prison, this is the
prison she's in. News comes out about you know about
her here and there. I don't mind to share that
with them a little bit, but that's it. So just
(38:15):
a balanced way so they don't get impacted by my trolley.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, I think, if anything, that you're showing them the
way that you should live life, that you can come
back from things, you can you know, you don't have
to be broken, you can take control. Like I think
it's inspirational. The fact that you've also stayed connected with
your church and your community. That says something too, you like,
I would imagine that. I'm not judging anyone that does that,
(38:40):
but when it's happened in that environment they distance themselves
from the environment. The fact that you can stay in
contact and still work within that environment and operate within
that environment, I think that says a lot too.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yes, it's something that I've worked on for many years.
It's not something that's easy. There are times that I
feel very let down, I think for a good year
and a half two year, and still even now, I
feel quite betrayed and let down by the community as
a whole, not individuals, because the community as a whole
is incredible. I made a bonments for recently and I
received food packages and flowers and notes and messages, and
(39:13):
I was like, Wow, I haven't made a celebration kind
of thing in a couple of years. This is what
community is. It's beautiful, but at the same time that
part of the community is amazing, that part is not.
I wish that they would do the same celebrating or
the same support or the same acknowledgment for a survivor.
And how can I create that change to happen so
(39:34):
it's not so scary for them to do, so I do.
I will talk about it in conversations. I'll say the
premiere is coming up, or I'll say this, I'll say
that because I'm going to put it into their faces.
I'll post it on my WhatsApp status. You might not
like it, and you will for sure not come, but
I want you to know it's happening because we want
to change. We want to impact change. My sisters and
I are doing the documentary to impact change, to have
conversations too. We have the visibility, but we want something
(39:57):
to be happening from this visibility. We don't just want
to share story for entertainment. And that's why we met
with Australian Childs Foundation yesterday to see how we can
align with them and work with them and create impacting change.
And we'll keep doing that post the documentary coming out,
and I hope some of those changes can veer into
my community as well, and I know it does. There
was an author who was found out to be an abuser,
(40:17):
a Jewish author overseas. I called all the three schools
that my kids were in and said, throw the books out.
And they're kids books that kids read. I read them
as a teenager. My kids all read them. They loved
him as an author, and they did. They threw out
all the books and that's exactly and I'm not afraid
to request that of them. So it's changed that needs
(40:38):
to happen, and I'm hoping I can be a part
of that.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
The documentary you mentioned is coming out on stan.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I believe, yes, Surviving Markolefer is a stand original.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Okay, Well, if a story covers off on what you've
talked about here, I think it's something that's definitely worthwhile,
worthwhile watching. After everything that you've been through and your
sisters on this whole journey you've been through, How does
it feel to know that what you've been through is
going to play out on the big screen with this
(41:08):
documentary coming up.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
My sisters and I are quite a little bit nervous
for the documentary. It is very vulnerable, it is raw,
it is inspiring, It is an absolute rollercoaster. It is
ninety five minutes of absolute packed, packed minutes of our journey,
and we filmed for five years. To have that reduced
to ninety five minutes feels unfair, but it has done
(41:33):
so well and we are so hopeful that people see
the story for the whole, the entirety of the story,
not just any agenda. Abuse happens in every community, in
every religion, in every country all over the world, and
we broke the silence, and we hope we can inspire
others to do the same, and we can also impact
change others are aware of what it looks like to
(41:55):
be brought up in an abusive home and then be
abused and then come out the other side post trauma growth.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Well, congratulations to you and your sisters for having the
courage to do that. I know one of the people
behind the project, and I can't wait to wait to
watch it. I think it'll be really powerful. As you described, yes,
I think the fact that you are talking about it too,
and as you're talking, I'm going, yes, that's what we need.
That's why these offenders have been allowed to flourish because
(42:25):
sexual abuse, sexual assaults, it's confronting for people to talk
about when red flags are seen or just says an
icky feel or whatever. Something doesn't feel right, people are
uncomfortable talking about it. I think the fact that you're
coming out and talking about it and putting the light
on it is important and it might prevent further things
like this happening.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I really hope so, and I hope watching the documentary
and seeing what went on in our case can cause
people to think, Wow, that all went on under our
noses and we didn't notice. Let's notice more if there's
a child that's consistently coming to school with a multi
lunchbox or no food, or looking unkempt, something's going on,
whether the mother's just emotionally struggling or not, or if
(43:05):
the behaviors that are starting to look a little bit
suspicious and not appropriate for children. Go don't just blame
the child, look further, find out what's going on in
the family, who's having access to their child, what they're seeing,
and start understanding more that every child is a world
of their own, and if you don't notice, those children
step through the cracks. And it's upon us as adults
(43:26):
to notice the children in our lives.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
You weren't given the opportunity to do a victim impact
statement at the court, and I'm sorry just dropping you
on the spot here. What would you want to say
if she was sitting in the scene in the court
and you could face it down, and what would you
say there?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I'll answer that in a minute. I did do a
victim impact statement on TikTok in seven parts. It is graphic,
it is confronting, it is heart wrenching, but it's my truth.
And I did do it in seven parts, so seven
minutes long. And if I would have had a chance
to say that in good I guarantee that everyone would
have been crying. But what I would say to her
(44:04):
is I would probably list everything she did and without flinching,
because you can't shy away from what you did to me.
Those four rapes and indissent assault is like not even
a drop in the ocean of what you have done
to me, and then explain to her the impact of
all of that. But at the end to day, but
you cannot break me, and you cannot take away my life.
I'm taking it back what you took and I'm going
(44:26):
to show you that what you have done to me
is not going to break me and not going to
impact me the way you think it did or you.
It's so hard because she's never admitted any remorse, any guilt, anything.
The way she's stood in court was so confident, so arrogant.
It was like coming off her in waves. She stared
down the judge, she stared down the jury. She stood
(44:47):
in a way her body language was I've got this.
And even the prison guy said to us she had
her suitcases packed on the day of the verdict, that
she's going to Israel that night. That's how confident she
was and that's the confidence she ran the school. So
for me to be able to say you did and
list literally everything and the impact is just knocking a
little chink in the armor that she has of confidence. No,
you did all of that, and you're in jail because
(45:08):
of that. And my vicdim impact statement is a lot.
It's quite I say it without emotion, obviously, but it's
very it's really heart entering.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Powerful. Yeah, very very strightful in regards to what the
comments that the judge judge made on sensing and of
course he's referring to your two sisters, not yourself. There
is something that I won't bog us down with it,
but there was something that the judge made a comment
that the type of situation that you found yourself in,
(45:39):
so the evidence that you gave helped put into context
what happened to your sisters as well. So the evidence
that you gave something resonated within the jury that Okay,
well this is a pattern that's clearly occurred. So I
think you could probably take some comfort from that that, yeah, well,
everything else you did both sides, going out of the
(45:59):
Israel three or four times and completely pushing and pushing
you made a difference at the trial too, So I
don't think your evidence was ignored. They just who knows
why juries make decisions, but just the judge made these comments.
I wish to make the following brief observations. There's been
a significant delay more than fifteen years between when these
(46:22):
offenses were committed and when the trial was held, as
the victim impact statements were not made until after the
jury convicted Miss Lifer. The victims have been able to
address the ongoing impact of this offending has had on
them during the entire period. For each of them, it
has been profound and life changing. What they have described
comes as no surprise given the nature and seriousness of
(46:44):
the offending. Our criminal courts are regularly informed about the
serious and deliritous impact that sexual offending against young or
vulnerable has. To the extent that the victims feel a
personal sense of guilt or shame for what occurred, they
should not. They were completely innocent victims of the predatory
behavior of miss Lifer and it is she and she
(47:06):
alone who should be found guilty and ashamed for what occurred. So, yeah,
the judge got it. Yeah, it's not about the victims.
It's not about victim shame. It's one person to blame
blame for this whole thing. Two. Unfortunately, there's a lot
of victims. Yeah, that they have been through similar situations
(47:26):
as yourself and survivors, people who are fighting for justice
like you had to fight for justice. What message would
you give to them if they're feeling like they're not
going to get justice, they're hitting the head against a
brick wall basically and just fighting the system. What sort
of advice? What things would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I don't have any regrets doing what I did, even
though I didn't get justice. I believe that every single
time a victim survivor has the opportunity, has the strength
to go to court. They are forcing the abuser to
be held accountable on some level, even if it doesn't
result in it guilty plea. So for anyone that has
a strength and ability to do so, keep going for it.
(48:05):
Our justice system needs us victim survivors to help them
bring the predators and abusers to justice.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
So don't give up good advice. How's your life now?
You've talked about what you're doing. How are you within
yourself after being through because what you've been through is
terribly traumatic for an extended period of time and fighting,
how do you look at life now? That's probably a
better question.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I think it's interesting for me because I think because
of all the time I've been through my life, childhood
and adulthood and Markelaifa, I was in quite a severe
state of association and numbness, and interestingly enough, the verdict
broke that it caused this emotion to come out because
it was that impactful, And since then I would say
that I've had probably a healthier ability to process really
(48:50):
difficult stuff. And funnily enough, post the trial, maybe because
I've had to prove to myself that Michael Life had
did abuse me. Despite the court finding lots, I've remembered
so much more of what she's done. It's becoming clearer
and clearer to me. It means obviously, I'm mentally able
to remember a lot more and able to understand the
impact and the depth of the level of her abuse
(49:10):
and how evil she was, and then work through it
in therapy, so coming out the other side. So I
have hope that one day soon she will not be
the first thing I think of and the last thing
I think of every day, which does still happen just
because of the nature of the space I'm in and
the healing that I'm trying to do, but I do.
There has been maybe two moments in the last year
where I've noted and I've shared publicly that I had
(49:33):
an event or a couple of hours where she wasn't
the first thing that that was in my mind, or
she wasn't existent at all. And that's hope is hope,
and that's what I'm aiming for more and more of.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
She got fifteen years I think in was it fifteen
years since.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Eleven point five and fifteen?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yes? Do you think that was long enough? Now that's
a dumb question. You'd never think it's long enough.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
It's I think, looking at the sentencing table that was
set out for our case, I don't know if they
are set out like that for others. No, I don't
think it was long enough. The amount of charges eighteen charges,
some of them very very serious charges. My issue is
I don't trust for a minute that she will not
leave jail or go back to Israel and abuse again.
(50:16):
And there are many that think.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Like that well, with the past history.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
And her lack of remorse and accountability, and I just
will do everything I can to make sure that wherever
she goes to live, the people there know she's not
a safe person.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I think that's fair enough. If people want to reach
out to you all the type of things that you're doing,
you said you're speaking up. Where where's the best place
to find you?
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Instagram breaking the silence? Now is my name and TikTok
Nicole Meyer so easy? People contact me on their Facebook LinkedIn.
I'm pretty much everywhere Nicole Meyer everywhere else.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, well, look, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat, and
I was worried about you. Happen to take you through
reliving what's occurred. But I've walked away from this inspired.
Like really, I think when bad things happen, how people
react to that. There is a testament to the person
that you are, how hard you fought for justice. I
(51:08):
know how painful that can be, and it breaks many
a person trying to get justice. But you just continued
and hung in there, and you know you didn't get
the verdict that you wanted by the jury, but I
think you've got justice in so many other ways, making
the person responsible for impacting on your life accountable and
(51:29):
so full credit to you. Thank you, it's been a
great chack.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Cheers.
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