May 3, 2025 • 53 mins
Rachelle Childs was brutally murdered 24 years ago. The young woman was found burning in the bush, partially undressed. Her killer is still on the loose. In a new podcast series called Dear Rachelle, her sister Kristy joins investigative journalist Ashlea Hansen to find answers to this unsolved crime.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
(00:45):
I sat down with investigative journalist Ashley Hanson, and I
also spoke to Christy Charles. Chris is the younger sister
of a murdered twenty three year old Rochelle Charles, whose
partially burned body was discarded in a shallow ditch near
the New South Wales south coast town of Dureau on
the eighth of June two thousand and one. Sadly, Rochelle's
(01:07):
murder remains unsolved. Ashley and Christy have teamed up to
try and find out what happened to Rachelle and bring
the person responsible before the courts. They have meticulously researched
Rochelle's murder and they want justice. Their efforts are documented
in a podcast called Dear Rochelle. I spoke to them
about their podcast and what they are uncovering. I think
(01:30):
you'll find it interesting listening. Chrissy, it's nice to meet you,
but I'm sorry it's in these circumstances.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thanks, it's nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, it's it's never nice going through what you've been
going through. So yeah, my sympathy for you. A long, long,
hard battle. But I'm happy that it's getting some media exposure.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Which certainly is yeah. Yeah, yeah, great.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You could miss it, miss it over the last week
or so, so that's been incredible. Yeah, Ashley, welcome to
our Catch Killers.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And congratulations on the podcast Dear Rachelle. Because I've been
listening to the episodes that are available at the moment
and i can see the work that's gone into it,
and yeah, I've found it very interesting.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Thank you, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, Now, Christy, I want to talk about just the
impact this whole situation that's had on you. Your oldest
sister has been murdered. It's over twenty years ago, and
no one's been called into account for it. Can you
just explain to the listeners, because I think sometimes we
(02:42):
read these stories in the paper, but we don't fully
appreciate the impact that has on the people that are
left behind when someone's murdered.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I was only eighteen, I was very close to nineteen
at a time, so it was It's definitely one of
those things where line drawn in the sand in your life,
where what happened before and what happened after, And yeah,
it was it's all very blurry back then, but I
had to grow up really really quickly. Luckily, me, mum
(03:17):
and dad were so close, and you know, we always
had been that it sort of brought us closer together
in a way. But it's yeah, definitely incredibly traumatic for
all of us. Yeah, and she was just, yeah, so loved,
so all of her. We have a really big family,
(03:37):
plus she had a massive amount of friends. So yeah,
it was very far reaching the impact and it's still
having a massive impact on people Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Speak to people that have lost loved ones and on
anniversaries or reflecting where would that person be now ten
years down the track. And it's a big part of
your life that's missing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, especially around Her birthday is the twenty sixth of May,
and she died on the eighth, seventh, eighth of June,
so there's like a two week period where you can't
even really talk to me. It's yeah, yeah, I just
sort of going to my little shell and I think
mum and dad or dad passed away a few years ago, right,
(04:20):
Mum does the same. But we always on those anniversaries
at eight o'clock, there's a group of us that we
just send each other a photo of a drink, a
burban or whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Sometimes it works.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, just you know, acknowledging that we all miss her,
and yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, it's a tough situation. Actually, you've worked on the
podcast for the past six months or so. Do you
get a sense you're an investigative journalist. Do you get
a sense that when you actually get to know people
and the impact that a murder has on those the
(04:55):
family members and those close to the victim, you're getting
a sense of that with what you've been doing researching
and investigating this matter.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
I think as a reporter for so many years beforehand,
I did have some exposure to families that have gone
through grief and whatnot. But I think to have known
Christy over this twelve month period or even longer than
that now and to just personally know her and to
hear and see the impact as the anniversary comes around,
(05:26):
as the birthday comes around, as we learn new things
and talk to all the people in Christie's life and
Rochelle's life that were so deeply traumatized from what happened,
I think that definitely hits you more as a journalist
and just makes you more committed to getting a positive
result out of this and getting some answers for Christy
(05:48):
and her mum in particular.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It makes sense because there is a disconnect when you
see the headlines in the news and you don't really
see the depth of it. I certainly was exposed to
it as a homicide detective, but I know if you're
working a long time doing investigative journalism with family members
that have lost the loved one, you see the pain.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
You do and you feel that pressure as well, more
so because I'm so motivated and inspired by her and
her mum and their strength, and they're so stoic and
they haven't done this podcast because they want pity or
they want sympathy. They've done it because they just are
so determined to get those answers. And that's what motivates
motivates them, and that motivates me.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, you can. You actually feed off the family's determination.
So like, again, full credit to you, because I know
it's not easy with you, Christy dealing with this and
bringing it all up, but full admiration for you the
fact that you're fighting for justice for your sister.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Thank you. I actually find it quite empowering. I think
doing nothing is harder. Yeah, so this is, you know,
this is good for me. This is I feel like
I'm giving her a voice and I'm actually doing something
rather than waiting for someone else to do something.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
The shame of it is, and I look at this
and not just speaking about Rochelle's case, the shame of
it is that the authority should be doing things. A
family shouldn't have to drive these matters, and sadly I've
seen it too much in my career where the families
are the driving force behind keeping an investigation active and ongoing,
and it really shouldn't be that way. If the system
(07:26):
was worked, something happens and then the courts, the police, everyone,
the media, everyone gets involved to ensure there's justice. But
it's not always the case.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, I would hope that, you know, in the future,
that the media and the police could work together a
lot more closely, because the media is such a powerful tools,
you know, much further reaching than just the police on
their own.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, the beauty of the media and now had the
I was going to say luxury. I'm not sure if
that's the right word, but I've worked in both areas.
But when I was in the police, I understood the
power of the media, and the police can say it
doesn't impact on the attention that the media gets it,
but I can assure you if there's a tension from
(08:17):
the media on a particular case, that case tends to
get resource better. And also it becomes more thorough investigation,
which is sad, but it's just a reality.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Squeaky wheel thing, isn't it. Really Feel sorry for the
victims who don't have family or friends pushing for them.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, and quite often and I've encountered this quite often.
The victims don't feel they got the right to push. Well,
the police are handling this matter. And most people that
come into contact in a situation like you have, you
haven't had a lot of dealings with police, so you expect,
you think the police are You can't challenge what the
police are doing. You just got to wait till and
(09:01):
hope that they're doing the right thing.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, you're right, And I think we were like that
for a really long time. And I think it's other
investigative journalists and other podcasts that sort of paved the way. Yeah,
and you see the impact that they have had. My
good friend Mindy introduced me to this sort of platform. Yeah,
this is incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, well, it's a different It's definitely change the landscape.
And we'll talk more about the podcast and the impact.
But I think before we start, can we just for
our listeners that haven't heard the details, can we just
explain what the circumstances surrounding Rochelle's murder was, Ashley, do
you want to just give us some brief details?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Well, on Thursday, the seventh of June two thousand and one,
Rochelle left work at Camden Holden where she was a
sales woman at this car yacht and they used to
specialize in Holden's and because Rochelle was a whole and
fanatic and it was almost a dream job right for her,
(10:05):
and she loved it, loved a job. And she was
going home back to Bargo, which is about a thirty
minute drive from her work. We believe she made it
home that night and she had plans to meet someone,
but we don't know exactly who she was meeting. And
she was never seen again alive. And nine hours later,
her burning body was found at Jiroa at seven Mile Beach,
(10:28):
which is one hundred kilometers away from her home in Bargo,
so far away from her circle of friends, very very
unusual place for her to go or.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I believe, I don't know that she's ever been down there, yeah,
other than when she was found down there.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Okay, So Christy went into a frantic search looking for
her because they didn't know that Rachelle had already been
killed when they were looking for her, because it was
so far away, I don't think they attached the missing
per and that when Christy went forward to the police
and said Rochelle's missing, and it was so out of
a character for her not to come home and not
(11:09):
to be in contact with her friends and family. So
Christy and all of your friends and family started to rally,
didn't you going looking for her? And then the devastating
news came through on the Sunday that Rachelle had been
found at Hiroa seven mile beach. And that's when a
murder investigation was well and truly underway.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And so when the Rochelle's body was discovered, it was
passed by that saw because she was partially burnt. And
I apologize here, Christy, because I know talking about it
is just yeah, it must invagal.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's fine, We talk about it a lot, so.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Fine, Okay, Well, just so people understand the nature of
this crime, that Rochelle's body was discarded in bush Land
and set alight and someone was driving past in the
early hours of the morning saw the fire and then
I realized it was a human that was on fire.
Was Rochelle's car found that location? Where was Rochelle's car found?
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Rochelle's car was found at the back of the Bargo
Hotel on the Saturday, so it had been there for
a couple of nights, at least two nights they believed.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
The police believed.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
That the car had been spotted there on the Thursday
night and the Friday night, and it was found and
seized by police on the Saturday.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
But I'll let.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Christy tell you that her reaction when the car was found,
because from Christie's perspective, it was like a breakthrough because
they thought, well, maybe the car has been found.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Soon we'll find Rochelle. So I'll let her talk you
through that, but if you want, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I just clarify, when did you realize Rochelle was missing?
When did the concern Friday? Friday?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, so you owner to Rochelle Thursday night, but I
rushed her off the phone because I was on the
other line. Was that old fashioned a lean line to
a friend, And then I forgot to call her back
and she was driving home in time. But yeah, the
next day she was supposed to meet Fiona, her good
friend that she worked with, and she didn't turn up. Sopha.
(13:18):
You went and tried looking for her, went to a
house and she said, something's wrong. I can't find her.
That's what started it. And it was calling police, calling hospitals,
driving around, calling everybody, getting everyone to call everybody. I
hadn't told mom and dad yet they were up at
Port Stephens at the time.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, so explain that. So it's Friday, Friday morning, Where.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Was Friday afternoon?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Friday afternoon? Yeah, and you try the phone, you check
all the places people she knows, and what was going
through your mind at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I thought that she'd crash the car, right because she
liked to drive very fast.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I got the sense it will com okay.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, so that's what I thought it had happened. I
thought she's gone off the road, she's rolled down the embankment.
We've got to finder. She's, you know, could be in
serious trouble. That's what I thought it happened. But when
we found the.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Car and that was so it was the Thursday night
and the car was found on the Saturday. Yeah, and
at this point in time, you hadn't made the connection
to what her the cur that Gira.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
No, I hadn't heard about that. So because we went
and put missing person's posters everywhere, I think the pub
called said that there's a car. I can't remember what happened,
but we went there. The car was locked up. I
don't actually remember this bit, but I was told that
(14:46):
my boyfriend at the time contacted the old owner and
got a spare key. Anyway, we managed to get into
the car, and I jumped in and sat in the
driver's seat and went. She didn't leave this year because
I couldn't. She was a lot shorter than me. Couldn't
touch the pedal. She did used to sit really far
back and drive. You know, you could only see this
much of her head. She'd drive with the toes and yeah,
(15:10):
she was assured you, but I couldn't reach the pedals.
It was pretty much all the way back. And the
clublock was on wrong. She had a really specific way
she put the clublock on. How There's like the that
part that goes around, it's sort of like a U shape,
and then you've got the long handle. She used to
put it on upside down and jam the handle into
(15:30):
the corner of the windscreen, and then she locked the
steering wheel, and the handle was down and the steering
wheel wasn't locked, and it was on facing forwards, and
she always put it on backwards.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Okay, so your assumption, based on that reasonable assumption, is
that she wasn't the person that put the car there.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
One hundred percent. She did not park that car there
because she was She'd had cars stolen a number of times.
She was really paranoid and that car was her pride
and joy, and she would not have left that car
Bargo Park.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay, so you've missing all of Friday, missing Saturday, the
car has been found. You think, okay, we might get
some answers. Now, this might start to.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I think that's when I knew that something right, Yeah,
I know there's something serious.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
And she wasn't the type of person that might have
just disappeared for a couple of days, got caught up
on something so out of the character. When did you
find out that the incident that Gira On Sunday?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Two detectives turned up because I lived with her at Bargo,
but I was at mum and Dad's house that weekend
looking after their house while they are away. Yeah, two
detectives turned up to Bargo, and I thought, oh, maybe
they founder Well they did, but yeah, that's when they
told me.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Can you tell us what that was like? And I've
been at the position of the detective delivering that saw
the news. What was said and how did you react
and how did your family deal with the situation.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Well, I had a really big smile on my face,
like hoping that they were coming to tell me something good.
And it was Detective Ivor Davies who walked up and
put his hand on my shoulder and lent him and said,
your sister's dead. She's been murdered. She was found down
at GIRoA, And it was Yeah, everything else is very blurry,
but his face at that point is so crystal clear
(17:27):
in my mind. And later on I did feel really
sorry for him to be horrible to tell the family
that I don't remember what I did after that. Yeah,
she screamed cry, I don't know. Then Mum and dad
turned up and I went, I can't be here for this,
So I think I went out of the back.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah. I picked that up from the podcast listening to
one of the episodes of the podcast. How it was
just too confronting for you to see that news given
to your parents.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, and we kind of stayed like that too. We
always we just grieve separately because we went at each other,
but we still still talk about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
It's heavy, isn't it. Before we venture into what's been
uncovered and what you're doing with the podcast. I think
it's important that we get a sense of who Rachelle
was as a person. From an investigative point of view.
We call it victimology about finding, and that quite often
helps with solving cases. But I think it's also important
(18:29):
that we remember who she is. And so would you
like to tell us about the sister you knew?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yep, she was really outgoing in a way in some respects.
She was actually quite shy, but yeah, really outgoing, really funny,
really quick witted, really smart, really pretty, got a lot
of attention.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
She had it all going she did.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
She had it all.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
She was spawty. She could drive like you wouldn't believe. Yeah,
she'd like to race cars on and off the track. Yeah,
she was a real backer of the underdog. She had
a really good sense of justice. And yeah, she'd always
stick up for people if she thought that they were
(19:17):
being hard done by, and she was always there for
her friends. She'd call people out on their shit. Yeah,
she was awesome. She was really a good She was
my protected too. I was a little bit more shy
than she was. What was the age difference, four years
she was four years older, all.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Right, So she was your role model? Yep, okay, we
shouldn't laugh. Very very good role model. Yes, And what
was the family dynamics like other brothers and sisters or no?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It was just us two. I'm very much like Dad.
I guess we were both a bit more like Dad
than mum. Mum's beautiful, Mum's very soft, where Rachelle and
I probably had a bit more sittin us.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I guess three gang up on your mom with you
gang up on your mom?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, we were stirs. Dad was really hard working. He's
a business consultant and had a couple of businesses. He
was gone most of the day. Mum would run us
around everywhere to softball, cricket, piano. When Rochelle lost a license, Mum.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Was we wonder why she lost a license?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, she was twenty three and I think she lost
the license two or three times by that stage.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Damn those highway control Yeah. Did she have dreams and aspirations?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, she she did. It wasn't long before she died
that she went. I think she started to see that
maybe being a news car saleswoman probably wasn't something that
she'd do forever. And I was at UNI at the time.
And she said, I think I'd like to go to UNI.
And we were talking to dad about trying to get
(20:58):
him to help us buy a few acres because we
had horses. All right, okay, so you just hit that
up alone. We can move out together and we live together,
but we're only renting.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, that was a good plan.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, and it was great when we lived together. It
was a great fun. And we used to make punch
in the vegetable CRUs but we had no vegetables in
the fridge, but we used to make punch so the
punch would stay cold. It was feel so broke I
thought we could have for It was great fun.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I'm just getting the sense I reckon you guys got
up to a fair bit of mischief, but you don't
have to declare that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well, yeah, innocent mischief.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's some other stories that probably
not fit for the audience at this stage. Actually, you've
got to know the family. You've certainly got to know Chrissy.
What's the sense of Rochelle that you get looking at
from an investigative journalist's point of view and having a
look into this family and getting to understand who Rochelle
was well.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
They still have a great sense of humor.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
And I can tell that Rachelle probably would have had
one too, because Christy's funny and it's funny they still,
I mean. And I was telling her to tell me
about the first press conference she ever did, and she
said that they were trying to find little funny moments
in all of their dark times, and before the first
press conference on Rochelle's murder.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
And said, oh, I should have got that facelift, you know,
I should have got that chin fixed.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
And I just, you know, I just laugh and think,
you know, they're just just warm and friendly people and
not complainers.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
I remember when I asked, Anne, do you ever ask
why I've lost so much? And she says, well, no,
I don't ask why me. I just ask why, And
that was really I think that sums her up.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
And Christy as well. They're not I don't want.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
PD as I said before, They're just people that are
salt of the earth Australians and they want justice and
I just really get a sense of that. And they're
just the Australian spirit, you know, the Australian sense of humor,
find you know, have a wicked sense of humor, but
at the same time always caring about other people. I mean,
(23:11):
Christy's always checking in on me how I'm doing, and
I'm thinking, you are going through and opening these wounds
of the worst time in your life, and she's still
always checking in on me after I speak to someone,
checking in on the person I interviewed, because she knows
that how traumatic it is for them to talk about
the case and to talk about Rachelle. So they're just
(23:34):
very warm and caring and loving people. And I'm sure
that Rachelle would have been that person too.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Cut from the same family. Yeah, yeah, that's really nice.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, it's yeah, I don't know where you find strength,
And I think part of what Ashley said there, and
that just amazes me, the human spirit where you can
hang in there but still find some joy in life
too likely what's happened. And I think that's so many
times I've sat here with people or during my career
(24:06):
as a homicide detective, and they've got to be able
to just find some lighter moments, because otherwise the darkness
just drags you down and down. Okay, let's talk about
the investigation. You're dealing with police, So what was your
first impressions when police became involved in this situation.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
They were so kind to us and they were all
guns blazing, they were up all night, they worked their
asses off and yeah, and they kept us informed the
whole way through. They were actually they became like family
with them all the time. I think they did the
best they could with what they had, and the resources
(24:49):
dried up pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So who were you talking about the local detectives that
were working at the time.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, I have a Davies in Peter Street with the
two that I remember probably the most. And then Mick
ash Would in his team took over. I think a
year later.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Mick Ashwood did a review, So I'm not quite sure
how much he was involved in the leadership of the investigation,
but he certainly came into it about a year later.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, we've had a few different teams on it and
they've all been incredible people.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Well, that's that's good to hear. Mick would have been
unsolved at that time, I think when he did the
review on the PABs. But okay, in dealing with the
police statements, things like the public don't normally understand what happens, Well.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It's you know, six hours in a in a police room,
being asked questions, being recorded, trying to remember everything. Yeah,
and just because you're so out of your mind at
the time, it's really hard to try and remember what happened,
(26:00):
you know. And it's there are a few different statements
that everyone did, a few different statements, but its hours
and hours and hours and hours and hours.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Of And I find with people as close to the
victim as you were with Rachelle, you're always second guessing.
Have I forgotten something? Is it something some detail that
I'm missing or is there something that I saw that
I haven't bought up that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Was that the definitely And the guilt, oh, guilt just
not being there and not calling it back and.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
The moment you mentioned that, yeah, you didn't have to
be Einstein to work out that you'd carry that guilt
with that. But and I see it so many times
people what if what if I did this? What if
I did that? The thing I say that it's you're
not to blame, it's the person done the crime, because
(26:53):
so many times I see so many times people beating
themselves up. Why didn't I pick the person up at
the railway station on why didn't I do this And
it's such a cruel thing, to a cruel thing to carry.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, you carry it though I know.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I'm not a psychologist, so just do my best to
make you feel better. But I do understand. But what
I'm saying is you're not alone. There so many people are.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
And you're right, there's only one person. We think one
person responsible.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, and that's where the attention needs to needs to
be focused on. So is there anything that looking And
I'm not fishing for criticism here, I'm just asking is
there anything from a victim of the family of a
victim of homicide that police could do better, or the
media could do better or anyone? Was there anything that
(27:44):
troubled you?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Losing evidence is probably the main thing that troubles me. Yeah,
because I just don't get how that happened.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
What's what's the circumstances there?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
CCTV that was collected, not watched and lost. Okay, the
is human error.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
There's no excuse for it. It's human error. I think
we've homicide that Yeah, if you make mistakes, people literally
get away with murder and it's something that shouldn't shouldn't occur.
How long was either and his team working on it for.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I don't know, it's very blurry. Yeah, that the first
twelve months is yeah, it's really hard for me to
remember anything.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Was there any breakthrough in that first twelve months where
you thought, okay, this is Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Every week it was like riding a roller coaster. The
persons of interest that we went through. Every time they
focused on someone, it's like, oh, it's them, and that's
it's not and then oh it's them, and they kept
us probably formed is probably too much because we rode
it with them. Yeah, and it was horrific, and it
(29:03):
was just a bunch of high hopes and you get
your hopes up on dead ends.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
It's difficult from a police point of view if you,
like the family, want to stay updated. My mantra and
what I was taught was that, yeah, at some point
in time, I'll sit down and tell you absolutely everything
I know, but I've got to protect the integrity of
the investigation. So if I'm withholding something back, there's a
reason I'm not telling you. But the balance is, yeah,
(29:29):
the families deserve to know. The families should know. So
it's not a black and white there's a gray area
on how much the keep the families informed. Did you
have any thoughts as a sister, was something troubling you
or niggling away at you on what happened to her?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, she was. She was really excited about getting a
warp control for the weekend. She was really really pumped about.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
That and not being the car buff that Rachelle is.
Walking Shaw.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's a v l SS group, ay, of course, top
of the line commodore.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
I have never heard of a walking Shaw before this.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
You said it with geez walking Shaw.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Okay, well it was so Peter Brock used to do
embarrassing bron so he did the v k SS group.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Ay.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
There known as the blue meanies. There's white ones I
think as well. That was the model before something happened
with Peter Brock and Holden and then when they started
making VL commodores, the vl SS group pay top of
the line VL was Tom Walkinshaw. His name was put
to that current instead of a VL Brock. Now it
(30:53):
was a walkie walking Shaw and everyone called them walkie
and they looked now I think you refer to them
as being a plastic pig. I don't think they like
them back then, but they're a classic now.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, okay, yeah, probably worth a lot of money now, Yeah,
and you reckon that Rachelle was the car that I'm
seeing a lot of information call.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
As she said, I looked up for her a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Most of our friends were boys growing up. There was
a lot more boys than there were girls, So there
was cars and motorbikes and yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, so you said she was getting that car for
the weekend alone of the car or.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, so she historically could pretty much take home many
cars she wanted from.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
The lot because she was working in that in the car.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, she brought home a black Senator once and beautiful cars.
So yeah, she was promised a walking Shaw for the
long weekend and yeah, and she was really excited about it.
There was no walking Shaw. So in my opinion, that
(31:57):
is the key to unlock what on earth happened, because
she wasn't a liar and she was really really excited
about getting this car. But there was no evidence of
a walking Shaw coming into the lot.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Okay, And when she was promised the car, that was
just information and she obviously told you or told the
friends that that's what she's going to get around.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Then, yeah, plans what we were going.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
To do cruise the streets. Yeah, music on loud. Okay,
I'm starting to see a picture picture now, GIRoA. I
think we touched on it before. It held held no
significance to her that location.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
No, we've got family at shoal Haven, but we didn't. Yeah,
we didn't go down there.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Okay. Was she seeing anyone at the time or was
she seeing.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, she was seeing a kind of seeing a guy
named Lee.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah, it was that was that serious? No, okay,
it was.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Very new and it was just a big casual think
she hadn't long broken up with Shane. It was her
long term boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Just on that, Lee made a statement to police and
he spoke about Rachelle talking about how excited she was
about getting this walking shaw for the Dune long weekend.
So one of Lee's statements is critical to the case
because she told him on the Wednesday night, which was
(33:26):
the night before she was murdered, that she was supposedly
being loaned this hold and walking shaw. So that's another
independent witness apart from Christy, that says that she'd told
people that she believed that she was getting this walking
shaw for the long weekend. Okay, and Lee was a
person of interest, but he was also cleared really quickly
(33:49):
because his alibi was rock solid and he was with
friends and family that night, so police looked into him
and he was one of many people that were looked
at that were in Rochelle's life was cleared.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Well, a crime of that nature and the sense that
I'm getting, you would be very much looking looking for
people close to Rachelle at the time of a disappearance,
so it doesn't surprise and there would be call in
persons of interest. The barrier can be set very low.
You can be a person of interest if you just
know the person or came in the contact. Her movements
(34:24):
on the Thursday night. Now I picked up on it
at one stage. It was she spoke to a friend
and said that she was considering going to a clubhouse
OMCG clubhouse. What was the backstory of that.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I'm not convinced with that.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I've never heard her talk about going to a Rebels Artie.
I mean, they're known for being you know, people have
a really good time there. But it's not something that
she never went there that I knew of, And I
found I found it interesting that I hadn't heard that
(35:02):
from her because it was like we kept secrets from
another But yeah, there were two of her friends that
said that she was interested in going to the Rebels
clubhouse for a party.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
Yeah, that she'd have invited, that she'd been invited to one.
We don't actually know though, what night that was, whether
that was meant to be the Thursday night, because I
think when people start getting questioned about it and it
was months down the track, they couldn't definitively say which
(35:34):
night it was, or whether she just generally said, yeah,
I've been invited to a party and was planning to
go at some stage or where this Thursday night party
came from.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
But what we know that the Thursday night.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
They did look into it, and apparently there were no
gatherings on at the clubhouse that night.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
What you get with investigations like this too, is you
get a lot of rumors and speculation, and you'll tell someone,
someone will tell someone else, and it lands on the
doorstep of the police and then we track it back.
And I know I said that, but I didn't see it.
I just thought that might have happened. So there would
be a lot of a lot of work that was
(36:16):
required to be done. Do you know why homicide weren't
running the investigation at the start? Was that ever clarified
with you?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
No?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Right, Okay, we're going to break break the investigation down
a little bit more detail because there was an inquest
and we can talk about that. But I just want
to talk about now, just jumping from the investigation a
little bit too. Why the podcast. Well, i'll start with you, Ashley.
(36:46):
What got you interested in this particular case?
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Well, after I left Channel seven and I was a
reporter there for about ten years, and had worked as
a TV reporter for many years before that as well,
and I just wanted to focus on one case because
I was so used to just covering one story and
telling my story for the television news that night, and
(37:10):
I felt so limited, especially when I would do interviews
with victims' families, and I just wanted to do more.
So when I became it happened in my career that
I just had a bit of time on my hands.
I was reassessing what I wanted to do next. Did
I want to be a newsreader or did I want
to get back into doing something else. And I felt
(37:33):
really strongly about doing a podcast. And getting into a
cold case because I've been inspired by Hitley Thomas.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
And his work, and I just thought of this case.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
It was the first cold case that came to mind
and the reason and it became apparent to me why
I remembered it, and it was because I was twenty three.
I think give will take a year. I was definitely
in my early twenties when I first heard about Rochelle's case,
because I've was working at Prime TV down at Woollongong
and I was just writing news updates and I remember
(38:06):
reading about it and having to write a very short
story on it and just thinking and seeing her photo
and I just remembered it because it evoked this shock
in me. And so when I was looking to do
a cold case, that was the first one that came
to mind, and I googled it and sure enough there
was an article with Christy in the article saying that
(38:27):
she was considering doing a podcast. And so I did
a bit more reading, a bit more research about the
case to see, you know, it's more background of the case,
and then I reached out to Christy in December I
think it was, and I just sent her a message
on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Just thought it's worth a chat and.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
See what she's see how she felt about it, and
she ignored me.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Christy, I'll give you a rite to respond to that
a little bit later, Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
She did.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I didn't know me message. It was sitting in the message.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Request, and I had it in my sort of diary
back of my mind to say I need to follow
her up. I actually need to get her phone number.
So that was in the back of my mind. And
then I was following the Lady Vanisher's podcast their Facebook
page and someone from their Facebook page because that's another
(39:22):
wonderful podcast that I follow and someone posted on there,
can you please follow this page? And it was Christie's
Facebook page about campaigning for justice for Rachelle. And I thought, oh,
my gosh, how strange that it was only just weeks
earlier I'd messaged Christie's. So I messaged the Facebook page
(39:42):
directly and I said, I actually sent you a message
just a few weeks ago.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
And she checked.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Her messages and sure enough there was my message in
her spam or wherever she ignores them.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
And we just got talking and yeah, we spoke.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Then she told me that she was also talking to
Headley Thomas and I had two reactions. One was of
relief that this case did warrant a podcast in the
sense that it was there was a lot of material,
and it was one that would you could investigate. There
was no barriers in the sense that someone was before
(40:21):
a court or anything like that. And then the other
reaction was, well, she's never going to pick me over Headley.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, he's a bit hard to match there.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
But I did also think, you know what, if my
interest in this case might prompt Headley to locker in.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Or something like that, I was happy about that.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
But as turned out, Headley was very deep in his
investigation into Brongwyn and I believe that that's why he
couldn't commit to Christie and Rochelle's case. And he's such
an honest man and was genuine about that and got
back to Chris and said, I just can't give it
the time your sister's case deserves. And I think he was.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
He was very well. I said to him, I've been
approached by Ashley Hansen. Yeah, and he said do it.
You're being good hands and he's.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Right, Okay, Well, that's cudos to Headley and the whole
environment with the podcast, and we refer the Teacher's Pet,
because it's one that so many people have listened to
and we understand what happened there. And I've had Hedley
sitting here in the chair you're sitting in and said
to him, from my point of view, and I think
(41:35):
I'm entitled to offer that opinion. I know if he
didn't stir that up, that would that matter wouldn't have
been wouldn't have been solved, And the police might say, oh,
we would have got on to it. But it doesn't
happen that way. It's just the real world. Like put
the focus on that case, and then Lynette Dawson case
finally gets reopen looked at and lo and behold, a
(41:57):
person's in jail for it now, so I can understand
understand seeing and I take it. Chrissy, you saw the
results from what happened with Teacher's Pet, and is that
what was driving you towards steering it towards a podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah. One of my best mates, Mindy Yep, put me
onto and she said, you need to listen to Headley
Thomas and start listening to the Teacher's Pet. And you know,
following Lynn Simms's case the whole way through it was incredible,
the work that he did and the justice that he
got her. Yeah, and I was all in, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah. It's actually you could probably speak to this with
more understanding as a changing landscape in the media, isn't it.
With the type of power that a podcast and the
exposure that the podcast can get.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
Game changing and because of the reach of the podcast,
because there is so much power in how many more
people can listen to a case, and it's such a
personal thing, as you know, people put on their headphone.
People can listen to a podcast while they're commuting to
work or whatnot. And it's just such a great medium
(43:09):
to put out so much information and to tell a
story and get people to start following it. Because a
TV documentary, if you look at that, is so much
more money and time goes into that. And also cameras,
people are so much more willing to just have their
voice recorded. And I've worked in television for so many years,
(43:30):
so I know how hard it is to get people
on camera. So to just get people to sit there
with a microphone in front of them, is they do
just switch off and forget about the fact that they're
being recorded, And is so much more open about their
thoughts and their feelings and the case, and it's not
as intrusive as a TV documentary or a TV story.
(43:52):
So I just think that that part of it makes
it a lot easier to get more people talking and
to put the story together in a way that needs
to be compelling, factual, but also engaging and hopefully to
motivate those people that may have information to come forward.
(44:12):
But of course you need that support. You need people
to fall in love with the victim and the family
as well. That's really important for me. Part of the
storytelling is to make sure that Rachelle is Her voice
is one of the first things you hear in our podcast,
and that was just something that I am really focused on.
(44:33):
That you hear her voice all the time and lots
of stories about her, and so people follow and want
to help Christy.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
And her mum. You want them, That's what I think.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
You need that emotional connection, and you don't get that
if you don't have family and friends talking about them
and yeah, making them so relatable.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
I mean, Michelle is so relatable.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
As I said, I heard about her case when I
was in my early twenties and just hearing about her
love life and what.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
She is to get up to and things like that.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
It is so likable, lovable, but relatable.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah. And I think with the podcast too, they don't
have the restrictions that the more established media have in
that they're not beholding to the police and so quite
often with the police. And it's not all attacking the police,
it's just the way of the world that a media
outlet is going to respond to. If police say no,
(45:26):
I want you to hold back on this because we're
sitting on something, don't release it, they're more inclined to
step back. Whereas a podcast it's a community involvement. It
feels like it's more of the community. It's not just
the established news networks or media outlets, so the police
have less control and that allows for more scrutiny of
(45:46):
the investigation. That's the way I see it as well.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah, And I think that's really important. And I've said
from the beginning, just you know, before I knew her
really well, just to keep bash accountable. It's about her.
It's not a story, Yep, it's not. It's not going
to advance someone's career, it's not going to make a
heap of money. It is about her and Ash completely
understands that.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
And that's that's the beauty of very different tam with
a podcast. So yeah, the impact and what we saw
with Headley, and there's other podcasts that have achieved similar
results by putting the spotlight on it. What made you
get to the point? And I suppose it's obvious when
it hasn't been solved and it's twenty years down the track,
(46:32):
But at what point did you think I've got to
do something? When did you start looking at the forum
of a podcast to keep things ticking over?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Well, that was twenty twenty one, I think so. My
dad passed away in twenty twenty one, had brain cancer
and towards the end he's a very smart, very articulate man,
but also a real Aussie yobo at the same time.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
That makes most interesting combination.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
You always knew who was talking to on the phone
with a business client or whether it was one of
his brothers. You're telling two different people you can switch, yeah,
but yeah, he he had the gift to the gap,
suded Rachelle, and it was really cruel. His brain tumor
took away speech and he couldn't speak I could imagine yeah,
and yeah, when he was dying, I said, I'm going
(47:24):
to get him, and that just because it was always
Dad that led everything and and Mum's quieter yea. So
I kind of felt a sense of responsibility to do
something about it. And I always had like this not
in my gut, that because I just wasn't doing anything,
and I had her car. So I live out on
a property in the New England region and the cars
(47:47):
in the shed, so I walked past it every day.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
With the investigation, At what point did you start to,
like I would imagine initially when the police was speaking
to you saying we're getting a breakthrough or we're following
up this lead, there would have been that feeling of Okay,
this is going to work out. We're going to find
out what's what's happened. At what point did you start
to have concerns that, yeah, and it might be through
(48:14):
no fault of anyone, that you thought, maybe this is
not going to be solved or as simple as I
thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Every second day, Yeah, you kind of ride the waves
it really hopeful, and then you you know, something doesn't
happen or something falls through, and you go we're just
not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
So the years roll on, you've had the Yeah, the
initial you said when Ivor was on it, it was
contact all the time, being kept informed. When did that
sort of sligh down?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I don't really know. I can't really remember. It felt
like years and years and years and years and years,
and then we went to coroner's court and that wrapped
it back up again.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Okay, when how long after the coroner's court? How long
after the urther did you end up in the coroner score?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Two thousand and six to two thousand and eight, so
it was five to seven years after.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
For the audience. A murder investigation invariably will run it
that might there's no limit on the time. It might
run for ten years before we think it's time for
it to go to go to inquest. But generally, when
you've exhausted all lines of inquiry on a homicide investigation
at that point in time, and I'm talking general sense here,
at that point in time, you go to the go
(49:29):
to an inquest, and the role of the coroner is
to find out the time, cause, and manner of manner
of death. Who was running the investigation at the time
it went to the inquest John Bryant, John Bryant, and
where was he basically a local detective or.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
And did you have hopes that the inquest might might
reveal things? What sort of things we you're hoping it
might might come out?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
You would have been We just wanted to see one
person in particular put under a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Right, Okay, we'll get into that in part too. You
provided a brief of evidence. Did you get.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Very much redacted brief evidence?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Right? Okay, we don't have a lot of it. What
did that tea you looking at the brief of evidence
of Corona's brief?
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Well, we've got John Bryant's what do you call it?
Summary summary? Yeah? Okay, yeah, so that that was really
good to read. But we've only got a very small
amount of statements, and they're not the ones that you
you really want to see. They've kept those ones, which
I've been trying really hard to get my hands on.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Now. It's been my research. And I do remember the case.
I remember the case. I was in homicide at the time,
and I also remember the location. There's a young fellow
I used to go down to camp in the bush
down around Giraua and so how I just sort of
sort of a place that it was for me with
and the circumstances of how Rochelle was Rochelle was found,
(51:07):
So I do remember it during that time time in homicide.
But with the with the inquest, it's been described that
there were nine persons of interest at the inquest. Would
that be fair to say? And did you have hopes
that the inquest was going to reveal something?
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Yeah? I hoped that it was going to be referred
to the DPP.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah, And that's if the coroner's holding the inquest and
it gets to a point where the coroner believes that
there's an identifiable person that may be responsible for the
death of the victim, they can refer the.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Matter to them advice the police prosecutor, but they don't
have to actually do anything.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
How How did how did you find the inquest?
Speaker 2 (51:58):
I take it we were there all day every day,
Mum and dad and you know, other people here and there.
But again I found that really empowering. It was like
we're giving her a voice, and we thought we're going
to get somewhere here. So we were quietly confident that
something was going to come of it, and nothing did.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
So yeah, it can be frustrating. Sometimes with an increase,
people think it's going to break it wide open. But
you also have a situation where someone believes something they
might say in the witness box may incriminate them. They've
got the right to silence and they can not answer questions,
which can get frustrating, sometimes incredibly frustrating. Yes, I'm saying
(52:43):
a look on your face, we might take a break.
Now we've got a sense of who Rochelle was, the
impact that has on the family, Why are you doing
the podcast? And when we get back, I want to
talk about some of the things that you've uncovered during
the podcast, because I've got to say, I have a
sense of how much work has to go in to
(53:04):
get all the information that's out there, and there's a
lot of stuff that's come out you've uncovered, and a
lot of stuff that the police have done, and I
think it'll be a worthwhile discussion that we have in
part two when we get back.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Follow to Ail
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
(00:45):
I sat down with investigative journalist Ashley Hanson, and I
also spoke to Christy Charles. Chris is the younger sister
of a murdered twenty three year old Rochelle Charles, whose
partially burned body was discarded in a shallow ditch near
the New South Wales south coast town of Dureau on
the eighth of June two thousand and one. Sadly, Rochelle's
(01:07):
murder remains unsolved. Ashley and Christy have teamed up to
try and find out what happened to Rachelle and bring
the person responsible before the courts. They have meticulously researched
Rochelle's murder and they want justice. Their efforts are documented
in a podcast called Dear Rochelle. I spoke to them
about their podcast and what they are uncovering. I think
(01:30):
you'll find it interesting listening. Chrissy, it's nice to meet you,
but I'm sorry it's in these circumstances.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thanks, it's nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, it's it's never nice going through what you've been
going through. So yeah, my sympathy for you. A long, long,
hard battle. But I'm happy that it's getting some media exposure.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Which certainly is yeah. Yeah, yeah, great.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You could miss it, miss it over the last week
or so, so that's been incredible. Yeah, Ashley, welcome to
our Catch Killers.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
And congratulations on the podcast Dear Rachelle. Because I've been
listening to the episodes that are available at the moment
and i can see the work that's gone into it,
and yeah, I've found it very interesting.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Thank you, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, Now, Christy, I want to talk about just the
impact this whole situation that's had on you. Your oldest
sister has been murdered. It's over twenty years ago, and
no one's been called into account for it. Can you
just explain to the listeners, because I think sometimes we
(02:42):
read these stories in the paper, but we don't fully
appreciate the impact that has on the people that are
left behind when someone's murdered.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I was only eighteen, I was very close to nineteen
at a time, so it was It's definitely one of
those things where line drawn in the sand in your life,
where what happened before and what happened after, And yeah,
it was it's all very blurry back then, but I
had to grow up really really quickly. Luckily, me, mum
(03:17):
and dad were so close, and you know, we always
had been that it sort of brought us closer together
in a way. But it's yeah, definitely incredibly traumatic for
all of us. Yeah, and she was just, yeah, so loved,
so all of her. We have a really big family,
(03:37):
plus she had a massive amount of friends. So yeah,
it was very far reaching the impact and it's still
having a massive impact on people Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Speak to people that have lost loved ones and on
anniversaries or reflecting where would that person be now ten
years down the track. And it's a big part of
your life that's missing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, especially around Her birthday is the twenty sixth of May,
and she died on the eighth, seventh, eighth of June,
so there's like a two week period where you can't
even really talk to me. It's yeah, yeah, I just
sort of going to my little shell and I think
mum and dad or dad passed away a few years ago, right,
(04:20):
Mum does the same. But we always on those anniversaries
at eight o'clock, there's a group of us that we
just send each other a photo of a drink, a
burban or whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Sometimes it works.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, just you know, acknowledging that we all miss her,
and yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, it's a tough situation. Actually, you've worked on the
podcast for the past six months or so. Do you
get a sense you're an investigative journalist. Do you get
a sense that when you actually get to know people
and the impact that a murder has on those the
(04:55):
family members and those close to the victim, you're getting
a sense of that with what you've been doing researching
and investigating this matter.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
I think as a reporter for so many years beforehand,
I did have some exposure to families that have gone
through grief and whatnot. But I think to have known
Christy over this twelve month period or even longer than
that now and to just personally know her and to
hear and see the impact as the anniversary comes around,
(05:26):
as the birthday comes around, as we learn new things
and talk to all the people in Christie's life and
Rochelle's life that were so deeply traumatized from what happened,
I think that definitely hits you more as a journalist
and just makes you more committed to getting a positive
result out of this and getting some answers for Christy
(05:48):
and her mum in particular.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It makes sense because there is a disconnect when you
see the headlines in the news and you don't really
see the depth of it. I certainly was exposed to
it as a homicide detective, but I know if you're
working a long time doing investigative journalism with family members
that have lost the loved one, you see the pain.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
You do and you feel that pressure as well, more
so because I'm so motivated and inspired by her and
her mum and their strength, and they're so stoic and
they haven't done this podcast because they want pity or
they want sympathy. They've done it because they just are
so determined to get those answers. And that's what motivates
motivates them, and that motivates me.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, you can. You actually feed off the family's determination.
So like, again, full credit to you, because I know
it's not easy with you, Christy dealing with this and
bringing it all up, but full admiration for you the
fact that you're fighting for justice for your sister.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Thank you. I actually find it quite empowering. I think
doing nothing is harder. Yeah, so this is, you know,
this is good for me. This is I feel like
I'm giving her a voice and I'm actually doing something
rather than waiting for someone else to do something.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
The shame of it is, and I look at this
and not just speaking about Rochelle's case, the shame of
it is that the authority should be doing things. A
family shouldn't have to drive these matters, and sadly I've
seen it too much in my career where the families
are the driving force behind keeping an investigation active and ongoing,
and it really shouldn't be that way. If the system
(07:26):
was worked, something happens and then the courts, the police, everyone,
the media, everyone gets involved to ensure there's justice. But
it's not always the case.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, I would hope that, you know, in the future,
that the media and the police could work together a
lot more closely, because the media is such a powerful tools,
you know, much further reaching than just the police on
their own.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, the beauty of the media and now had the
I was going to say luxury. I'm not sure if
that's the right word, but I've worked in both areas.
But when I was in the police, I understood the
power of the media, and the police can say it
doesn't impact on the attention that the media gets it,
but I can assure you if there's a tension from
(08:17):
the media on a particular case, that case tends to
get resource better. And also it becomes more thorough investigation,
which is sad, but it's just a reality.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Squeaky wheel thing, isn't it. Really Feel sorry for the
victims who don't have family or friends pushing for them.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, and quite often and I've encountered this quite often.
The victims don't feel they got the right to push. Well,
the police are handling this matter. And most people that
come into contact in a situation like you have, you
haven't had a lot of dealings with police, so you expect,
you think the police are You can't challenge what the
police are doing. You just got to wait till and
(09:01):
hope that they're doing the right thing.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, you're right, And I think we were like that
for a really long time. And I think it's other
investigative journalists and other podcasts that sort of paved the way. Yeah,
and you see the impact that they have had. My
good friend Mindy introduced me to this sort of platform. Yeah,
this is incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, well, it's a different It's definitely change the landscape.
And we'll talk more about the podcast and the impact.
But I think before we start, can we just for
our listeners that haven't heard the details, can we just
explain what the circumstances surrounding Rochelle's murder was, Ashley, do
you want to just give us some brief details?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Well, on Thursday, the seventh of June two thousand and one,
Rochelle left work at Camden Holden where she was a
sales woman at this car yacht and they used to
specialize in Holden's and because Rochelle was a whole and
fanatic and it was almost a dream job right for her,
(10:05):
and she loved it, loved a job. And she was
going home back to Bargo, which is about a thirty
minute drive from her work. We believe she made it
home that night and she had plans to meet someone,
but we don't know exactly who she was meeting. And
she was never seen again alive. And nine hours later,
her burning body was found at Jiroa at seven Mile Beach,
(10:28):
which is one hundred kilometers away from her home in Bargo,
so far away from her circle of friends, very very
unusual place for her to go or.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I believe, I don't know that she's ever been down there, yeah,
other than when she was found down there.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Okay, So Christy went into a frantic search looking for
her because they didn't know that Rachelle had already been
killed when they were looking for her, because it was
so far away, I don't think they attached the missing
per and that when Christy went forward to the police
and said Rochelle's missing, and it was so out of
a character for her not to come home and not
(11:09):
to be in contact with her friends and family. So
Christy and all of your friends and family started to rally,
didn't you going looking for her? And then the devastating
news came through on the Sunday that Rachelle had been
found at Hiroa seven mile beach. And that's when a
murder investigation was well and truly underway.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And so when the Rochelle's body was discovered, it was
passed by that saw because she was partially burnt. And
I apologize here, Christy, because I know talking about it
is just yeah, it must invagal.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's fine, We talk about it a lot, so.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Fine, Okay, Well, just so people understand the nature of
this crime, that Rochelle's body was discarded in bush Land
and set alight and someone was driving past in the
early hours of the morning saw the fire and then
I realized it was a human that was on fire.
Was Rochelle's car found that location? Where was Rochelle's car found?
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Rochelle's car was found at the back of the Bargo
Hotel on the Saturday, so it had been there for
a couple of nights, at least two nights they believed.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
The police believed.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
That the car had been spotted there on the Thursday
night and the Friday night, and it was found and
seized by police on the Saturday.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
But I'll let.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Christy tell you that her reaction when the car was found,
because from Christie's perspective, it was like a breakthrough because
they thought, well, maybe the car has been found.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Soon we'll find Rochelle. So I'll let her talk you
through that, but if you want, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I just clarify, when did you realize Rochelle was missing?
When did the concern Friday? Friday?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, so you owner to Rochelle Thursday night, but I
rushed her off the phone because I was on the
other line. Was that old fashioned a lean line to
a friend, And then I forgot to call her back
and she was driving home in time. But yeah, the
next day she was supposed to meet Fiona, her good
friend that she worked with, and she didn't turn up. Sopha.
(13:18):
You went and tried looking for her, went to a
house and she said, something's wrong. I can't find her.
That's what started it. And it was calling police, calling hospitals,
driving around, calling everybody, getting everyone to call everybody. I
hadn't told mom and dad yet they were up at
Port Stephens at the time.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, so explain that. So it's Friday, Friday morning, Where.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Was Friday afternoon?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Friday afternoon? Yeah, and you try the phone, you check
all the places people she knows, and what was going
through your mind at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I thought that she'd crash the car, right because she
liked to drive very fast.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I got the sense it will com okay.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, so that's what I thought it had happened. I
thought she's gone off the road, she's rolled down the embankment.
We've got to finder. She's, you know, could be in
serious trouble. That's what I thought it happened. But when
we found the.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Car and that was so it was the Thursday night
and the car was found on the Saturday. Yeah, and
at this point in time, you hadn't made the connection
to what her the cur that Gira.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
No, I hadn't heard about that. So because we went
and put missing person's posters everywhere, I think the pub
called said that there's a car. I can't remember what happened,
but we went there. The car was locked up. I
don't actually remember this bit, but I was told that
(14:46):
my boyfriend at the time contacted the old owner and
got a spare key. Anyway, we managed to get into
the car, and I jumped in and sat in the
driver's seat and went. She didn't leave this year because
I couldn't. She was a lot shorter than me. Couldn't
touch the pedal. She did used to sit really far
back and drive. You know, you could only see this
much of her head. She'd drive with the toes and yeah,
(15:10):
she was assured you, but I couldn't reach the pedals.
It was pretty much all the way back. And the
clublock was on wrong. She had a really specific way
she put the clublock on. How There's like the that
part that goes around, it's sort of like a U shape,
and then you've got the long handle. She used to
put it on upside down and jam the handle into
(15:30):
the corner of the windscreen, and then she locked the
steering wheel, and the handle was down and the steering
wheel wasn't locked, and it was on facing forwards, and
she always put it on backwards.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Okay, so your assumption, based on that reasonable assumption, is
that she wasn't the person that put the car there.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
One hundred percent. She did not park that car there
because she was She'd had cars stolen a number of times.
She was really paranoid and that car was her pride
and joy, and she would not have left that car
Bargo Park.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay, so you've missing all of Friday, missing Saturday, the
car has been found. You think, okay, we might get
some answers. Now, this might start to.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I think that's when I knew that something right, Yeah,
I know there's something serious.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
And she wasn't the type of person that might have
just disappeared for a couple of days, got caught up
on something so out of the character. When did you
find out that the incident that Gira On Sunday?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Two detectives turned up because I lived with her at Bargo,
but I was at mum and Dad's house that weekend
looking after their house while they are away. Yeah, two
detectives turned up to Bargo, and I thought, oh, maybe
they founder Well they did, but yeah, that's when they
told me.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Can you tell us what that was like? And I've
been at the position of the detective delivering that saw
the news. What was said and how did you react
and how did your family deal with the situation.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Well, I had a really big smile on my face,
like hoping that they were coming to tell me something good.
And it was Detective Ivor Davies who walked up and
put his hand on my shoulder and lent him and said,
your sister's dead. She's been murdered. She was found down
at GIRoA, And it was Yeah, everything else is very blurry,
but his face at that point is so crystal clear
(17:27):
in my mind. And later on I did feel really
sorry for him to be horrible to tell the family
that I don't remember what I did after that. Yeah,
she screamed cry, I don't know. Then Mum and dad
turned up and I went, I can't be here for this,
So I think I went out of the back.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah. I picked that up from the podcast listening to
one of the episodes of the podcast. How it was
just too confronting for you to see that news given
to your parents.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, and we kind of stayed like that too. We
always we just grieve separately because we went at each other,
but we still still talk about it all the time.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
It's heavy, isn't it. Before we venture into what's been
uncovered and what you're doing with the podcast. I think
it's important that we get a sense of who Rachelle
was as a person. From an investigative point of view.
We call it victimology about finding, and that quite often
helps with solving cases. But I think it's also important
(18:29):
that we remember who she is. And so would you
like to tell us about the sister you knew?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yep, she was really outgoing in a way in some respects.
She was actually quite shy, but yeah, really outgoing, really funny,
really quick witted, really smart, really pretty, got a lot
of attention.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
She had it all going she did.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
She had it all.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
She was spawty. She could drive like you wouldn't believe. Yeah,
she'd like to race cars on and off the track. Yeah,
she was a real backer of the underdog. She had
a really good sense of justice. And yeah, she'd always
stick up for people if she thought that they were
(19:17):
being hard done by, and she was always there for
her friends. She'd call people out on their shit. Yeah,
she was awesome. She was really a good She was
my protected too. I was a little bit more shy
than she was. What was the age difference, four years
she was four years older, all.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Right, So she was your role model? Yep, okay, we
shouldn't laugh. Very very good role model. Yes, And what
was the family dynamics like other brothers and sisters or no?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It was just us two. I'm very much like Dad.
I guess we were both a bit more like Dad
than mum. Mum's beautiful, Mum's very soft, where Rachelle and
I probably had a bit more sittin us.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I guess three gang up on your mom with you
gang up on your mom?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, we were stirs. Dad was really hard working. He's
a business consultant and had a couple of businesses. He
was gone most of the day. Mum would run us
around everywhere to softball, cricket, piano. When Rochelle lost a license, Mum.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Was we wonder why she lost a license?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, she was twenty three and I think she lost
the license two or three times by that stage.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Damn those highway control Yeah. Did she have dreams and aspirations?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, she she did. It wasn't long before she died
that she went. I think she started to see that
maybe being a news car saleswoman probably wasn't something that
she'd do forever. And I was at UNI at the time.
And she said, I think I'd like to go to UNI.
And we were talking to dad about trying to get
(20:58):
him to help us buy a few acres because we
had horses. All right, okay, so you just hit that
up alone. We can move out together and we live together,
but we're only renting.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, that was a good plan.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, and it was great when we lived together. It
was a great fun. And we used to make punch
in the vegetable CRUs but we had no vegetables in
the fridge, but we used to make punch so the
punch would stay cold. It was feel so broke I
thought we could have for It was great fun.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I'm just getting the sense I reckon you guys got
up to a fair bit of mischief, but you don't
have to declare that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well, yeah, innocent mischief.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's some other stories that probably
not fit for the audience at this stage. Actually, you've
got to know the family. You've certainly got to know Chrissy.
What's the sense of Rochelle that you get looking at
from an investigative journalist's point of view and having a
look into this family and getting to understand who Rochelle
was well.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
They still have a great sense of humor.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
And I can tell that Rachelle probably would have had
one too, because Christy's funny and it's funny they still,
I mean. And I was telling her to tell me
about the first press conference she ever did, and she
said that they were trying to find little funny moments
in all of their dark times, and before the first
press conference on Rochelle's murder.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
And said, oh, I should have got that facelift, you know,
I should have got that chin fixed.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
And I just, you know, I just laugh and think,
you know, they're just just warm and friendly people and
not complainers.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
You know.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
I remember when I asked, Anne, do you ever ask
why I've lost so much? And she says, well, no,
I don't ask why me. I just ask why, And
that was really I think that sums her up.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
And Christy as well. They're not I don't want.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
PD as I said before, They're just people that are
salt of the earth Australians and they want justice and
I just really get a sense of that. And they're
just the Australian spirit, you know, the Australian sense of humor,
find you know, have a wicked sense of humor, but
at the same time always caring about other people. I mean,
(23:11):
Christy's always checking in on me how I'm doing, and
I'm thinking, you are going through and opening these wounds
of the worst time in your life, and she's still
always checking in on me after I speak to someone,
checking in on the person I interviewed, because she knows
that how traumatic it is for them to talk about
the case and to talk about Rachelle. So they're just
(23:34):
very warm and caring and loving people. And I'm sure
that Rachelle would have been that person too.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Cut from the same family. Yeah, yeah, that's really nice.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, it's yeah, I don't know where you find strength,
And I think part of what Ashley said there, and
that just amazes me, the human spirit where you can
hang in there but still find some joy in life
too likely what's happened. And I think that's so many
times I've sat here with people or during my career
(24:06):
as a homicide detective, and they've got to be able
to just find some lighter moments, because otherwise the darkness
just drags you down and down. Okay, let's talk about
the investigation. You're dealing with police, So what was your
first impressions when police became involved in this situation.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
They were so kind to us and they were all
guns blazing, they were up all night, they worked their
asses off and yeah, and they kept us informed the
whole way through. They were actually they became like family
with them all the time. I think they did the
best they could with what they had, and the resources
(24:49):
dried up pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So who were you talking about the local detectives that
were working at the time.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, I have a Davies in Peter Street with the
two that I remember probably the most. And then Mick
ash Would in his team took over. I think a
year later.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Mick Ashwood did a review, So I'm not quite sure
how much he was involved in the leadership of the investigation,
but he certainly came into it about a year later.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, we've had a few different teams on it and
they've all been incredible people.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Well, that's that's good to hear. Mick would have been
unsolved at that time, I think when he did the
review on the PABs. But okay, in dealing with the
police statements, things like the public don't normally understand what happens, Well.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It's you know, six hours in a in a police room,
being asked questions, being recorded, trying to remember everything. Yeah,
and just because you're so out of your mind at
the time, it's really hard to try and remember what happened,
(26:00):
you know. And it's there are a few different statements
that everyone did, a few different statements, but its hours
and hours and hours and hours and hours.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Of And I find with people as close to the
victim as you were with Rachelle, you're always second guessing.
Have I forgotten something? Is it something some detail that
I'm missing or is there something that I saw that
I haven't bought up that type of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Was that the definitely And the guilt, oh, guilt just
not being there and not calling it back and.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
The moment you mentioned that, yeah, you didn't have to
be Einstein to work out that you'd carry that guilt
with that. But and I see it so many times
people what if what if I did this? What if
I did that? The thing I say that it's you're
not to blame, it's the person done the crime, because
(26:53):
so many times I see so many times people beating
themselves up. Why didn't I pick the person up at
the railway station on why didn't I do this And
it's such a cruel thing, to a cruel thing to carry.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, you carry it though I know.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I'm not a psychologist, so just do my best to
make you feel better. But I do understand. But what
I'm saying is you're not alone. There so many people are.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
And you're right, there's only one person. We think one
person responsible.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, and that's where the attention needs to needs to
be focused on. So is there anything that looking And
I'm not fishing for criticism here, I'm just asking is
there anything from a victim of the family of a
victim of homicide that police could do better, or the
media could do better or anyone? Was there anything that
(27:44):
troubled you?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Losing evidence is probably the main thing that troubles me. Yeah,
because I just don't get how that happened.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
What's what's the circumstances there?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
CCTV that was collected, not watched and lost. Okay, the
is human error.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
There's no excuse for it. It's human error. I think
we've homicide that Yeah, if you make mistakes, people literally
get away with murder and it's something that shouldn't shouldn't occur.
How long was either and his team working on it for.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I don't know, it's very blurry. Yeah, that the first
twelve months is yeah, it's really hard for me to
remember anything.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Was there any breakthrough in that first twelve months where
you thought, okay, this is Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Every week it was like riding a roller coaster. The
persons of interest that we went through. Every time they
focused on someone, it's like, oh, it's them, and that's
it's not and then oh it's them, and they kept
us probably formed is probably too much because we rode
it with them. Yeah, and it was horrific, and it
(29:03):
was just a bunch of high hopes and you get
your hopes up on dead ends.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
It's difficult from a police point of view if you,
like the family, want to stay updated. My mantra and
what I was taught was that, yeah, at some point
in time, I'll sit down and tell you absolutely everything
I know, but I've got to protect the integrity of
the investigation. So if I'm withholding something back, there's a
reason I'm not telling you. But the balance is, yeah,
(29:29):
the families deserve to know. The families should know. So
it's not a black and white there's a gray area
on how much the keep the families informed. Did you
have any thoughts as a sister, was something troubling you
or niggling away at you on what happened to her?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, she was. She was really excited about getting a
warp control for the weekend. She was really really pumped about.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
That and not being the car buff that Rachelle is.
Walking Shaw.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's a v l SS group, ay, of course, top
of the line commodore.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
I have never heard of a walking Shaw before this.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
You said it with geez walking Shaw.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Okay, well it was so Peter Brock used to do
embarrassing bron so he did the v k SS group.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
Ay.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
There known as the blue meanies. There's white ones I
think as well. That was the model before something happened
with Peter Brock and Holden and then when they started
making VL commodores, the vl SS group pay top of
the line VL was Tom Walkinshaw. His name was put
to that current instead of a VL Brock. Now it
(30:53):
was a walkie walking Shaw and everyone called them walkie
and they looked now I think you refer to them
as being a plastic pig. I don't think they like
them back then, but they're a classic now.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, okay, yeah, probably worth a lot of money now, Yeah,
and you reckon that Rachelle was the car that I'm
seeing a lot of information call.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
As she said, I looked up for her a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Most of our friends were boys growing up. There was
a lot more boys than there were girls, So there
was cars and motorbikes and yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, so you said she was getting that car for
the weekend alone of the car or.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, so she historically could pretty much take home many
cars she wanted from.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
The lot because she was working in that in the car.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, she brought home a black Senator once and beautiful cars.
So yeah, she was promised a walking Shaw for the
long weekend and yeah, and she was really excited about it.
There was no walking Shaw. So in my opinion, that
(31:57):
is the key to unlock what on earth happened, because
she wasn't a liar and she was really really excited
about getting this car. But there was no evidence of
a walking Shaw coming into the lot.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Okay, And when she was promised the car, that was
just information and she obviously told you or told the
friends that that's what she's going to get around.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Then, yeah, plans what we were going.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
To do cruise the streets. Yeah, music on loud. Okay,
I'm starting to see a picture picture now, GIRoA. I
think we touched on it before. It held held no
significance to her that location.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
No, we've got family at shoal Haven, but we didn't. Yeah,
we didn't go down there.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Okay. Was she seeing anyone at the time or was
she seeing.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, she was seeing a kind of seeing a guy
named Lee.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah, it was that was that serious? No, okay,
it was.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Very new and it was just a big casual think
she hadn't long broken up with Shane. It was her
long term boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Right.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Just on that, Lee made a statement to police and
he spoke about Rachelle talking about how excited she was
about getting this walking shaw for the Dune long weekend.
So one of Lee's statements is critical to the case
because she told him on the Wednesday night, which was
(33:26):
the night before she was murdered, that she was supposedly
being loaned this hold and walking shaw. So that's another
independent witness apart from Christy, that says that she'd told
people that she believed that she was getting this walking
shaw for the long weekend. Okay, and Lee was a
person of interest, but he was also cleared really quickly
(33:49):
because his alibi was rock solid and he was with
friends and family that night, so police looked into him
and he was one of many people that were looked
at that were in Rochelle's life was cleared.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Well, a crime of that nature and the sense that
I'm getting, you would be very much looking looking for
people close to Rachelle at the time of a disappearance,
so it doesn't surprise and there would be call in
persons of interest. The barrier can be set very low.
You can be a person of interest if you just
know the person or came in the contact. Her movements
(34:24):
on the Thursday night. Now I picked up on it
at one stage. It was she spoke to a friend
and said that she was considering going to a clubhouse
OMCG clubhouse. What was the backstory of that.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I'm not convinced with that.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I've never heard her talk about going to a Rebels Artie.
I mean, they're known for being you know, people have
a really good time there. But it's not something that
she never went there that I knew of, And I
found I found it interesting that I hadn't heard that
(35:02):
from her because it was like we kept secrets from
another But yeah, there were two of her friends that
said that she was interested in going to the Rebels
clubhouse for a party.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
Yeah, that she'd have invited, that she'd been invited to one.
We don't actually know though, what night that was, whether
that was meant to be the Thursday night, because I
think when people start getting questioned about it and it
was months down the track, they couldn't definitively say which
(35:34):
night it was, or whether she just generally said, yeah,
I've been invited to a party and was planning to
go at some stage or where this Thursday night party
came from.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
But what we know that the Thursday night.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
They did look into it, and apparently there were no
gatherings on at the clubhouse that night.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
What you get with investigations like this too, is you
get a lot of rumors and speculation, and you'll tell someone,
someone will tell someone else, and it lands on the
doorstep of the police and then we track it back.
And I know I said that, but I didn't see it.
I just thought that might have happened. So there would
be a lot of a lot of work that was
(36:16):
required to be done. Do you know why homicide weren't
running the investigation at the start? Was that ever clarified
with you?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
No?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Right, Okay, we're going to break break the investigation down
a little bit more detail because there was an inquest
and we can talk about that. But I just want
to talk about now, just jumping from the investigation a
little bit too. Why the podcast. Well, i'll start with you, Ashley.
(36:46):
What got you interested in this particular case?
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Well, after I left Channel seven and I was a
reporter there for about ten years, and had worked as
a TV reporter for many years before that as well,
and I just wanted to focus on one case because
I was so used to just covering one story and
telling my story for the television news that night, and
(37:10):
I felt so limited, especially when I would do interviews
with victims' families, and I just wanted to do more.
So when I became it happened in my career that
I just had a bit of time on my hands.
I was reassessing what I wanted to do next. Did
I want to be a newsreader or did I want
to get back into doing something else. And I felt
(37:33):
really strongly about doing a podcast. And getting into a
cold case because I've been inspired by Hitley Thomas.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
And his work, and I just thought of this case.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
It was the first cold case that came to mind
and the reason and it became apparent to me why
I remembered it, and it was because I was twenty three.
I think give will take a year. I was definitely
in my early twenties when I first heard about Rochelle's case,
because I've was working at Prime TV down at Woollongong
and I was just writing news updates and I remember
(38:06):
reading about it and having to write a very short
story on it and just thinking and seeing her photo
and I just remembered it because it evoked this shock
in me. And so when I was looking to do
a cold case, that was the first one that came
to mind, and I googled it and sure enough there
was an article with Christy in the article saying that
(38:27):
she was considering doing a podcast. And so I did
a bit more reading, a bit more research about the
case to see, you know, it's more background of the case,
and then I reached out to Christy in December I
think it was, and I just sent her a message
on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Just thought it's worth a chat and.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
See what she's see how she felt about it, and
she ignored me.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Christy, I'll give you a rite to respond to that
a little bit later, Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
She did.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I didn't know me message. It was sitting in the message.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Request, and I had it in my sort of diary
back of my mind to say I need to follow
her up. I actually need to get her phone number.
So that was in the back of my mind. And
then I was following the Lady Vanisher's podcast their Facebook
page and someone from their Facebook page because that's another
(39:22):
wonderful podcast that I follow and someone posted on there,
can you please follow this page? And it was Christie's
Facebook page about campaigning for justice for Rachelle. And I thought, oh,
my gosh, how strange that it was only just weeks
earlier I'd messaged Christie's. So I messaged the Facebook page
(39:42):
directly and I said, I actually sent you a message
just a few weeks ago.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
And she checked.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Her messages and sure enough there was my message in
her spam or wherever she ignores them.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
And we just got talking and yeah, we spoke.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Then she told me that she was also talking to
Headley Thomas and I had two reactions. One was of
relief that this case did warrant a podcast in the
sense that it was there was a lot of material,
and it was one that would you could investigate. There
was no barriers in the sense that someone was before
(40:21):
a court or anything like that. And then the other
reaction was, well, she's never going to pick me over Headley.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, he's a bit hard to match there.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
But I did also think, you know what, if my
interest in this case might prompt Headley to locker in.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Or something like that, I was happy about that.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
But as turned out, Headley was very deep in his
investigation into Brongwyn and I believe that that's why he
couldn't commit to Christie and Rochelle's case. And he's such
an honest man and was genuine about that and got
back to Chris and said, I just can't give it
the time your sister's case deserves. And I think he was.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
He was very well. I said to him, I've been
approached by Ashley Hansen. Yeah, and he said do it.
You're being good hands and he's.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Right, Okay, Well, that's cudos to Headley and the whole
environment with the podcast, and we refer the Teacher's Pet,
because it's one that so many people have listened to
and we understand what happened there. And I've had Hedley
sitting here in the chair you're sitting in and said
to him, from my point of view, and I think
(41:35):
I'm entitled to offer that opinion. I know if he
didn't stir that up, that would that matter wouldn't have
been wouldn't have been solved, And the police might say, oh,
we would have got on to it. But it doesn't
happen that way. It's just the real world. Like put
the focus on that case, and then Lynette Dawson case
finally gets reopen looked at and lo and behold, a
(41:57):
person's in jail for it now, so I can understand
understand seeing and I take it. Chrissy, you saw the
results from what happened with Teacher's Pet, and is that
what was driving you towards steering it towards a podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah. One of my best mates, Mindy Yep, put me
onto and she said, you need to listen to Headley
Thomas and start listening to the Teacher's Pet. And you know,
following Lynn Simms's case the whole way through it was incredible,
the work that he did and the justice that he
got her. Yeah, and I was all in, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah. It's actually you could probably speak to this with
more understanding as a changing landscape in the media, isn't it.
With the type of power that a podcast and the
exposure that the podcast can get.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
Game changing and because of the reach of the podcast,
because there is so much power in how many more
people can listen to a case, and it's such a
personal thing, as you know, people put on their headphone.
People can listen to a podcast while they're commuting to
work or whatnot. And it's just such a great medium
(43:09):
to put out so much information and to tell a
story and get people to start following it. Because a
TV documentary, if you look at that, is so much
more money and time goes into that. And also cameras,
people are so much more willing to just have their
voice recorded. And I've worked in television for so many years,
(43:30):
so I know how hard it is to get people
on camera. So to just get people to sit there
with a microphone in front of them, is they do
just switch off and forget about the fact that they're
being recorded, And is so much more open about their
thoughts and their feelings and the case, and it's not
as intrusive as a TV documentary or a TV story.
(43:52):
So I just think that that part of it makes
it a lot easier to get more people talking and
to put the story together in a way that needs
to be compelling, factual, but also engaging and hopefully to
motivate those people that may have information to come forward.
(44:12):
But of course you need that support. You need people
to fall in love with the victim and the family
as well. That's really important for me. Part of the
storytelling is to make sure that Rachelle is Her voice
is one of the first things you hear in our podcast,
and that was just something that I am really focused on.
(44:33):
That you hear her voice all the time and lots
of stories about her, and so people follow and want
to help Christy.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
And her mum. You want them, That's what I think.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
You need that emotional connection, and you don't get that
if you don't have family and friends talking about them
and yeah, making them so relatable.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
I mean, Michelle is so relatable.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
As I said, I heard about her case when I
was in my early twenties and just hearing about her
love life and what.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
She is to get up to and things like that.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
It is so likable, lovable, but relatable.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah. And I think with the podcast too, they don't
have the restrictions that the more established media have in
that they're not beholding to the police and so quite
often with the police. And it's not all attacking the police,
it's just the way of the world that a media
outlet is going to respond to. If police say no,
(45:26):
I want you to hold back on this because we're
sitting on something, don't release it, they're more inclined to
step back. Whereas a podcast it's a community involvement. It
feels like it's more of the community. It's not just
the established news networks or media outlets, so the police
have less control and that allows for more scrutiny of
(45:46):
the investigation. That's the way I see it as well.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah, And I think that's really important. And I've said
from the beginning, just you know, before I knew her
really well, just to keep bash accountable. It's about her.
It's not a story, Yep, it's not. It's not going
to advance someone's career, it's not going to make a
heap of money. It is about her and Ash completely
understands that.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
And that's that's the beauty of very different tam with
a podcast. So yeah, the impact and what we saw
with Headley, and there's other podcasts that have achieved similar
results by putting the spotlight on it. What made you
get to the point? And I suppose it's obvious when
it hasn't been solved and it's twenty years down the track,
(46:32):
But at what point did you think I've got to
do something? When did you start looking at the forum
of a podcast to keep things ticking over?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Well, that was twenty twenty one, I think so. My
dad passed away in twenty twenty one, had brain cancer
and towards the end he's a very smart, very articulate man,
but also a real Aussie yobo at the same time.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
That makes most interesting combination.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
You always knew who was talking to on the phone
with a business client or whether it was one of
his brothers. You're telling two different people you can switch, yeah,
but yeah, he he had the gift to the gap,
suded Rachelle, and it was really cruel. His brain tumor
took away speech and he couldn't speak I could imagine yeah,
and yeah, when he was dying, I said, I'm going
(47:24):
to get him, and that just because it was always
Dad that led everything and and Mum's quieter yea. So
I kind of felt a sense of responsibility to do
something about it. And I always had like this not
in my gut, that because I just wasn't doing anything,
and I had her car. So I live out on
a property in the New England region and the cars
(47:47):
in the shed, so I walked past it every day.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
With the investigation, At what point did you start to,
like I would imagine initially when the police was speaking
to you saying we're getting a breakthrough or we're following
up this lead, there would have been that feeling of Okay,
this is going to work out. We're going to find
out what's what's happened. At what point did you start
to have concerns that, yeah, and it might be through
(48:14):
no fault of anyone, that you thought, maybe this is
not going to be solved or as simple as I
thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Every second day, Yeah, you kind of ride the waves
it really hopeful, and then you you know, something doesn't
happen or something falls through, and you go we're just
not going to get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
So the years roll on, you've had the Yeah, the
initial you said when Ivor was on it, it was
contact all the time, being kept informed. When did that
sort of sligh down?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I don't really know. I can't really remember. It felt
like years and years and years and years and years,
and then we went to coroner's court and that wrapped
it back up again.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Okay, when how long after the coroner's court? How long
after the urther did you end up in the coroner score?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Two thousand and six to two thousand and eight, so
it was five to seven years after.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
For the audience. A murder investigation invariably will run it
that might there's no limit on the time. It might
run for ten years before we think it's time for
it to go to go to inquest. But generally, when
you've exhausted all lines of inquiry on a homicide investigation
at that point in time, and I'm talking general sense here,
at that point in time, you go to the go
(49:29):
to an inquest, and the role of the coroner is
to find out the time, cause, and manner of manner
of death. Who was running the investigation at the time
it went to the inquest John Bryant, John Bryant, and
where was he basically a local detective or.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I?
Speaker 1 (49:49):
And did you have hopes that the inquest might might
reveal things? What sort of things we you're hoping it
might might come out?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
You would have been We just wanted to see one
person in particular put under a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Right, Okay, we'll get into that in part too. You
provided a brief of evidence. Did you get.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Very much redacted brief evidence?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Right? Okay, we don't have a lot of it. What
did that tea you looking at the brief of evidence
of Corona's brief?
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Well, we've got John Bryant's what do you call it?
Summary summary? Yeah? Okay, yeah, so that that was really
good to read. But we've only got a very small
amount of statements, and they're not the ones that you
you really want to see. They've kept those ones, which
I've been trying really hard to get my hands on.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Now. It's been my research. And I do remember the case.
I remember the case. I was in homicide at the time,
and I also remember the location. There's a young fellow
I used to go down to camp in the bush
down around Giraua and so how I just sort of
sort of a place that it was for me with
and the circumstances of how Rochelle was Rochelle was found,
(51:07):
So I do remember it during that time time in homicide.
But with the with the inquest, it's been described that
there were nine persons of interest at the inquest. Would
that be fair to say? And did you have hopes
that the inquest was going to reveal something?
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Yeah? I hoped that it was going to be referred
to the DPP.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah, And that's if the coroner's holding the inquest and
it gets to a point where the coroner believes that
there's an identifiable person that may be responsible for the
death of the victim, they can refer the.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Matter to them advice the police prosecutor, but they don't
have to actually do anything.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
How How did how did you find the inquest?
Speaker 2 (51:58):
I take it we were there all day every day,
Mum and dad and you know, other people here and there.
But again I found that really empowering. It was like
we're giving her a voice, and we thought we're going
to get somewhere here. So we were quietly confident that
something was going to come of it, and nothing did.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
So yeah, it can be frustrating. Sometimes with an increase,
people think it's going to break it wide open. But
you also have a situation where someone believes something they
might say in the witness box may incriminate them. They've
got the right to silence and they can not answer questions,
which can get frustrating, sometimes incredibly frustrating. Yes, I'm saying
(52:43):
a look on your face, we might take a break.
Now we've got a sense of who Rochelle was, the
impact that has on the family, Why are you doing
the podcast? And when we get back, I want to
talk about some of the things that you've uncovered during
the podcast, because I've got to say, I have a
sense of how much work has to go in to
(53:04):
get all the information that's out there, and there's a
lot of stuff that's come out you've uncovered, and a
lot of stuff that the police have done, and I
think it'll be a worthwhile discussion that we have in
part two when we get back.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
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