Predators lurking in plain sight: Kristi McVee Pt.2

Former detective Kristi McVee has interviewed hundreds of young kids who’ve been assaulted by child sex offenders. From love bombing and online dangers to the sextortion gangs online, Kristi wants to empower children and end the insidious cycle of abuse.

 

Listen to Kristi on The CAPE Podcast here.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.

(00:45):
Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Christy McVie.
Christy is a retired Western Australian police detective who is
an author and an expert in child sexual abuse. In
part one, we spoke about educating parents and adults responsible
for looking after children that look out for sexual predadice,
and also how to educate children even from an early age.

(01:05):
And I learned something there Chrissy about that it can
start when they're two years old, and just the language
that you use. When we move on to now that
we're in that part two, what are the type of
behaviors we're going to look out for for these people
that pray on children.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, so a lot of the time, like we mentioned,
they'll be seeking out vulnerable children, but vulnerable parents equals
vulnerable children. So it can be that they're grooming a
parent or an adult to trust them. And so you know,
they gaslight or more so love bond people. So they're
really really friendly, Like they'll be full of compliments and stuff,

(01:47):
and they do that to the children as well, but
they might do that to the parents, and they'll become
friends with the parents and they'll create this relationship or
this friendship with the parent. And then as time goes on,
if it happens, if it happens slowly, and sometimes it
can happen really fast, if the person's really trusting, then
they will, you know, find ways to be alone with
the child. So, hey, let me take Johnny to go fishing.

(02:10):
Like you know, you've got a busy week, you're tired,
Like you know, hey, I'm going camping this weekend. You
want me to take the kids with me and stuff
like that, and then and these this could be completely innocent,
but these are the ways that they get children alone.
So they're going to aim to get the child alone
in a way that they can groom the child or
to progress the abuse. And so, you know, some of

(02:34):
the behaviors I saw or heard was the adult would
stay up really late every night whilst everyone's asleep, and
then they were creeping into the child's room. They were
behind locked doors with children. So you know, I always
had a rule that there was no lock doors, no
closed doors in my house. And you know, they're behind
a door with a child, and you know, I've heard

(02:55):
victim survivors tell me that, you know, every time they
were abused, it was when mum was outside washing, like
hanging out the washing, and they would lock the door
and they'd be stuck or there was the perception that
they couldn't get out, the child couldn't get out. And
one of the other things that I wanted to mention about,
you know, every time I arrested a child sex offender,

(03:16):
they had massive pornography collections and I often get asked
the question, you know, what kind of porn do they watch? Well,
most people most I say, start off with normal everyday pornography,
but there is actually a sliding scale of how they
get down to child sexual abuse material and stuff. And
so start off with normal porn, then it gets more

(03:37):
violent or more sadistic. Then it goes into best reality
and then child exploitation material. But all of these predators
and pedophiles that I saw over the years, they all
had massive porn collections or some form of porn addiction,
and it just goes into that world and best Realities
comes before child abuse material. And the other thing about

(03:59):
the porn is that study I was telling you about
from the Institute of Criminology is that the people that
identified as abusing children and attracted to children had were
paying for porn, and they actually identified that they paid
for porn and they watched more violent beast reality porn
and child sexual abuse material. So that's a big indicator

(04:20):
as well.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, and I see what you're saying as an indicator,
because we probably all know people that they're into their
porn or whatever. But that's yeah, that's an indicator that maybe.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Along with other things, but it would be something if
I was in a partnership or if I was with
someone that had a you know, was staying up late
watching lots of porn, you know, and.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Some of these you wouldn't be in a relationship.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Some people are, yeah, and you know, some of the
indicators that I hear from you know, victims parents or
like the non offending parent who you know was like, well,
we had a normal sex life and everything seemed fine,
but then they were abusing one of the children. So
you know, it's these are some of the things that
you see. And then if they're not in a relationship,

(05:08):
you know, they're that person that spends all their time
with children. And I heard an FBI profilest basically say,
if someone wants to spend more time with your children
than you do, that's a red flag because children can
be annoying.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
That's a good simple way of looking at it. But
I think a common sense approach you certainly it's a
red flag that you want to look at. What about
the manipulation the offenders do on your children, because that's
something you could be looking about for as well. How
do they manipulate the children.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Quite often they're playing their manipulation game in twofold, so
they're manipulating you. But they're manipulating the child. So with you,
they might be. And I'm thinking about a specific case
right now where the offender was grooming the child to abuse.
So was love bombing them, was you know, complementing them,
giving them gifts, taking them out on special treats, you know,

(05:59):
or constant constantly grooming that child. But with the adult,
they were basically creating this disconnect or this yeah, this
disconnect between the parent and the child. So in order
to get access to this child, look, let me take
this child under my wing. And you know, their behaviors
are out of control, and you know, like I can see,

(06:20):
you know, so they're like gas lighting the parent into
believing that this person's this savior for this child and
is going to help fix this child's behavior and stuff.
Never mind that the child's behavior is changing because they're
being abused. You know. One of the things that I
truly believe is behavior is another form of language. And
when children show change behavior or show behaviors that aren't

(06:40):
ideal or are concerning, then we need to ask what
is happening?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Okay, little things like that, And it's a complex way
that they approach. It isn't like distancing the child from
the side of people, and I can just imagine using
the scenario of a single mother with children and oh,
your child, they just need the male role model. Let
me take them away for the weekend. And yeah, making

(07:06):
that offer to parents when the manipulation when they're exhausted.
Kids are hard. We all know that, like raising kids
are hard. You need a break, you've had a hell
of a week. Let me let me look after the
kids to either or I can babysit. But okay, they're
things again, it doesn't say conclusively that they're they're sex offenders,

(07:26):
but they're things to look out for. And we want
to be more aware, don't we. We don't want to
go through with blinkers on them. Think the world's a
lovely place and no bad happens.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, well that's not that's not the way it is.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, you come out with your statistics, statistics and that's yeah, well, okay, adolescents, Yes,
that's the brave new world that Yeah, it's a strange
world for all of us when we go through those
adolescent years. But what are the risk factors when we're
talking about sexual predators or where adolescents can come unstuck

(07:58):
even with any nude selfies those type of things. What
do we got to look out and how can we
help adolescent children?

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, well, I guess the first thing that I want
to say is that when your child goes through adolescents,
they have like a basically they become aliens, don't they.
I remember when my child hit around eleven, and I thought,
what the hell is going on with my child? Where's
my loving beautiful kid.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
They disappear for about seven or eight years.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
She's come back around already, but they do like they
have like a brain transplant overnight, and so that can
really take us out of like all of a sudden,
the child that tells you everything's no longer telling you anything,
and you don't actually can't get along with them anymore.
I mean, my daughter just so happened. It was right

(08:46):
around the time she had this brain transplant, right around
the time that I was going through PTSD, you know,
leaving the police, and she stood me up in the
hallway one time, like she was so angry because you know,
she's got all of these homes. She stood me up
in the hallway we laugh about it now, and she
was like, I just want to punch you in the
face like and honestly, if you ever my daughter is

(09:08):
the most She's a firecracker, no doubt, but she but
she was so angry at me. This is the thing, Like,
I'm being honest here because you know my daughter, I
wrote like a blog post about it. My daughter saw
porn at ten, right, and she you know, she was
taught about sex at eight by a friend at school.
And the thing is is that our kids are learning

(09:29):
something at such a progressive rate and some of us,
even myself at the time. And this is why I'm
being really honest, is that it's okay if you're stumbling
and you're going, I don't know what I'm doing here,
because I've done.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
That, all right, Okay, Well that sets the setsus standard
that no one's perfect on.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
The moment, no one is topic no one. And so
with regards to teens, one of the things that we
need to really be mindful is to keep that open
communication where we can, because I get teens contact me
and it's so stripped. It's so crazy that they and
reach out to me online. But it's because I talk
about sextortion and I talk about image based abuse on
TikTok and where the teens are and they contact me

(10:09):
and they're like, I've been sex storted. I don't know
what to do. And I always say, can you talk
to a safe adult? Have you got a safe atut
to talk to? And most of them are like, I'm
too scared to go to my parents. I'm too scared
to talk to my parents. So my lesson for that
is is to talk to your kids and to let
them know it's okay if they make mistakes, and that
you're always there no matter what they do.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, that's a very important message together across because, yeah,
in the world that they live in and not have
that safe place to come and speak to a parent.
Some of the topics that you've got in your book
about the adolescence use peer based abuse and prevention. Talk
to us about that.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, so it's we've stumbled it or we've spoken about it.
At thirty to fifty percent of children abuse other children.
It doesn't mean if something happens in childhood. I do
want to say this, if your child happens to display
harmful sexualized behaviors, it's what we the terminology we use.
We're dealing with children. They're not sex offenders. They're children.

(11:08):
But if they display harmful sexualized behaviors in childhood, it
doesn't mean that they're going to be a sex offender
when they grow up their children. So what we need
to understand about it is that some things are appropriate
and age appropriate. Say, for instance, two children they're both
twelve and they have their first kiss, that's an age

(11:29):
appropriate thing to happen. Or they're fifteen and they start
dating they decide to have sex. That's age appropriate because
there's no power imbalance. They're the same age, and as
long as there's the same mental capacity and there's no intoxication,
and there's no coercional or force, then everything's hunky dory.
But when we're talking about harmful sexualized behaviors, and what

(11:50):
we usually see is an older child, usually around pubescent age,
harming a younger child usually and there is stats on
this from Western Australi three to ten, ten to fifteen.
So the more likely age that a child will will
harm another child is between ten and fifteen, and the

(12:11):
most likely age that a child will be harmed by
another child is between three and ten.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Okay, now you talked about their kids, So the person
of the fends or the inappropriate behavior doesn't necessarily lead
into what they're going to do in their adulthood. How
do you protect your child from being a victim but
also protect your child about respect and everything else that
goes with it. How does that all tie.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Up with body safety with all of those lessons that
we were talking about. If we're talking about it from
a really young age and we're empowering children to speak
up and to share that they feel unsafe and uncomfortable with,
then we're adding on the consent. We're adding on the
discussion about, you know, and also being okay with no.
You know some one of the lessons that I teach
in those body safety cards is there's five types of no.

(12:57):
You know, there's soft no where you just say no,
and you know, there's polite no, no, thank you, and
then the last no is screaming no, stop it, I
don't like it, or get away.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
From it, say giving it, and the awkwardness of teenage
sex or no or but you're giving them a scale
of those, so it's pretty clear when I'm yelling no,
that means means no yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
And in the book, I say this as well, if
you've never been taught to say no, which some parents
say you're not allowed to say no to me. You
do what I say when I say it. If your
child has never practiced saying no to anyone, when they
get to an uncomfortable situation like first time to have sex,
or they think that they're expected to do something, they
don't know how to say no.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
That's again making me think, because I know I've been
through stuff. Teenager, you have no idea what the world's about.
But yeah, sometimes you fall into a situation where you
don't know I'm not into this or no.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
And that's the consent discussion, like we've I had a
seventy something year old grandmother read my book and she
contacted me via email, this massive email about her life,
and she said to me, Christy, your consent. I've got grandkids.
No one has ever spoken to me about consent before.
And I realized how many times I've been sexually abused
because I.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Never actually didn't know how to say no.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, and that's I had a seventy year old another
seven year old woman during a presentation come up to
me afterwards and say, I've never told anyone that I
was sexually abused, And you know, seventy she was abused
at eight sixty something year being on.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Too that that long. That's the impact that it has.
One of the topics that you've got in your book,
nude culture and teens. I think, yeah, with the advent
of phones and the internet, social media, what was a
harmless bit of fun at the party when I was
growing up with someone that ran through the party naked

(14:58):
or something people would love and that would be the
end of it. But it's a completely different environment now
that kids are operating as teens, aren't they Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Very much so. I mean, I've got a teenager and
she constantly tells me that she doesn't understand because we
talk about this stuff and I've been open with it.
She's like, Mum, people just don't get how dangerous it
is to share nudes. And you know, I don't understand.
But that's because we've had those conversations. I've encouraged her
to critically think these things through. Again, like I was saying,

(15:28):
if we're not having these conversations with our teens, this
is what they think is normal, and this is what
they think they need to do to get that boy's
attention or that girl's attention. I've had twelve year olds
ask me or come to me after a presentation saying, oh,
I'm being pressured for dick picks, and you know, like
it's just become so normalized, and so the nudes and

(15:49):
the sending of nudes and everything like that is a
real problem, and our teens think that this is what
they need to do. When you and I were, you know,
in school day, you know, my boy my husband, my
boyfriend asked me out, you know, he got his friend
to ask me out on you know, the back of
the bus, sent me a note, and then I said

(16:10):
yes or no. You know, I don't know if does
anyone remember when you used to like, go, will you
go out with me?

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Why? No?

Speaker 2 (16:16):
And you had to circle which one.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
I never went down that, but that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
You were probably more charming and like oh no, now I.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Got more nose and I got yes, but I didn't
even know how to ask.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah. But that's right, that's exactly right. And so now
because they're behind a screen, they feel safe and they
feel like nothing's going to harm me. But the reality
is they send a nude to the person they like
at school, it's going to get shared. And one of
my colleagues over in Western Australia, Paul luther Land. He's
a great guy. He said that he he goes and

(16:49):
like talks to students all day every day and he
surveys them, right, and he surveys turn up one in
So when boys get a nude from a girl, one
in two. Okay, when girls get a dick pic from
a boy, about one inten will share it. So we've
got a cultural problem there. We've got to respect problem

(17:09):
because you know, when you're sending a nude to someone.
First of all, we need to talk about the fact
that unsolicited dick pics and unsolicited nudes someone's got to
if you haven't asked for it, we shouldn't be sending it.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Well, that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah. The other thing that we need to talk about
with our teams and what we need to cover with
them is that that image, that photo, once someone's screenshots at,
once someone's got it, it's out of your control and
it could be out there forever. But the second to
that is that our young people are being groomed online
en mass and that is the next problem.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, we're just back to that first problem. So you've
got to explain to your teenager the consequences of sending,
receiving or whatever, and how you handle it if you've
got nude pictures and of sharing it, all sorts of things.
Awkward conversation they have with a team. But you've got
to have that conversation.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
I actually think you need to have that conversation before
they're a teenager.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, well, that's probably sensible.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Because by the time they're hitting year seven and they're
getting into high school, they're being asked for needs, they're
being shown porn, and you know, they're already it's already
in their world. And so don't think that waiting until
high school is where we talk about these conversations. The
minute you give a smartphone to your child, we should
be having these conversations.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
That makes sense. That makes sense. So it's too late
to tell my son he's thirty there, so.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, no sending dick pics.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Okay, I'll get that message out to it. Healthy relationships
like we talk about it, and yeah, there are healthy relationships,
but what can how do you educate your children and
put across the children about Yeah, relationships are beautiful things.
They should be enjoyed and it's an exciting time in
your life. What do you have to say to them

(18:56):
about healthy relationships and respectful relationship.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Again, I taught this to my daughter in her friendships
before she got even into high school. You know, when
a friend would pressure her to do something she didn't
want to do, I would call it out as what
it was. That's coercion, you know. I would talk to
her about love bombing. And when someone is giving you
lots of things and lots of compliments, and you know,
gifting you all of these things, well that's actually a

(19:22):
way to buy your attention and to keep you, you know,
in their world or and I talked about the fact
that you know in the book, I talk about the
fact that most of us learn how to be in
a relationship from her own parents' relationship or from the
people around us, those adults, and not all of those
relationships are healthy and safe. So having those conversations with

(19:42):
your young person, you might not be able to give it.
You know, you might be in a dangerous or unsafe relationship,
but you can also teach that that's not how it's
meant to be.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay. So if your relationship is not the perfect role
model for your kids, you sit your kids down and be.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Honest with yourself and say, look, this is an ideal,
this is the situation we're in. But I love blah
blah blah, this is why I'm here. But also, you know,
you can use their friendships and their early relationships because
by the time they get to dating, yeah, their first relationship,
which is around fourteen fifteen, maybe even earlier, maybe later,
by that stage, they have already got a preconceived idea

(20:20):
of what a relationship looks like, and they're already starting
to think. Well, you know, and I've had young girls
when young people tell me, oh, if he contacts me
one hundred times a day and to ask me where
I am all the time, that just means he loves me.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
No stalker.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, but that's but that's what you know what I'm
talking about.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Yeah, I do. But yeah, those type of people they
scare me as in scare me in the potential consequences
when they come on that strong. So you're giving them
life advice about the relationships, what's normal and what to
look out for.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, and just having that language and understanding what's normal
and not normal, or what's safe and unsafe. You know,
what safe love is versus what's unsafe love? And there's
so many resources out there. I list them in the book,
but you know one eight hundred respect is one of them.
They've got information about love bombing, they've got information about
healthy relationships. You know, a partner should never dictate to

(21:17):
you what you should do. And a lot of teenagers
get themselves into a relationship with their partners, telling them
who they can hang out with, who they can see where,
you know, asking them where they're going what. You know,
that's the first part of domestic violence, if we're going
to call it what it is.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
But we know that now as we're old and way
past those adolescent years. But at the time, you would
you'd have no idea. You just think, oh, this person
really loves you, yes.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
And then you're stuck in a relationship that is really
dangerous and unhealthy. And we see and young people are
so eager to make other people love them, you know. Remember,
I mean, I don't know if you remember, but my daughter, like,
she went through this phase where she just wanted people
to like her and love her. And she's over that now.
She's like, if they don't like me, blah blah.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
That's that's the thing. Because you say, confused about what
life's all about. You just want to want to be
the popular person.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Or you just want people to like it, and that
comes from that. And that's if you know, if we
talk about childhood development, that is normal. You know, your
children love you, want everything. They listen to you and
listen to your advice. And then as they get through
those first those pubescent teenage years, they're going to start
pulling away. They're going to start looking to their peers
for advice and for information. And then if we haven't

(22:32):
done the groundwork first, and then if they don't have
that relationship with us, we can't correct that or countercorrect
that when they're going through it. So that's why we
need to have those conversations and then hopefully we help
them guide them through there.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
In the relationship. I never thought on my catch killers
i'd be seeing here getting relationship advice maybe my parents
should have given me, and my personal life wouldn't be
as chaotic.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
I don't think i'm the like I'm a I'm not
a psychologist, but I've just watched a lot of stuff.
I've watched a lot of people, I've spoken to a
lot of people, and I just realized that this is
so important for our kids.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, very very important online stuff. Where do we start
with that? Like it's the brave new world. And when
we're talking about kids being victims of predators online, what
are the things we've got to look out for. Because
we've talked about the things to look out for in
people that circulate in your environment, but your teenage kids

(23:29):
are even younger, are sitting there in front of their computter.
What are the dangers we've been online for kids to
prevent them from becoming victims of sexual predators.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, so let me break it down for you into
who's out there trying to prey on your children. So
the first so it comes down to two types of
predators online. The first one's pedophilical predatory. They're out there
looking for children's images. They're out there to groom children
and get those photos in. The second one is financial,
so they're the sex daughters. They're extorting kids for money

(24:01):
and that their sole purpose is to get as much
out of your child as possible or out of your
family as possible. So when we break that down, then
there's the types of abuse. So the first one is
let's start with the financial is sextortion. So it's gotten
much media and it's I saw the e Safety Commissioner
yesterday and stopped and said hello to her yesterday and

(24:25):
she said that sextortion has quadrupled in the last year.
They're getting so last year they had hundreds of thousands.
I forgot to look it up before I came, but
they had hundreds of thousands of reports to that. The
Australian centered counter child exploitations. So sextortion is out of.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Cop given an example of sextortion so people understand what
we're talking about because the consequences of that have been
really tragic in some of the ones that have hit
the media.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, so sextortion is where a I love the police terminology,
but it makes me laugh because there's a player. But
it's basically a person behind a screen who pretends to
be a young person. So they're usually an adult, usually
organized crime gang, and they're behind a screen. They're pretending
to be a love interest to the child. So they

(25:13):
will if it's a male, so they'll pretend to be
a hot female basically to explain it in simple terms,
and they will approach the child and they will say
to the young fella, hey, you know what you're doing
blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
And this is found on social media.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Usually Instagram, Snapchat, Discord, three big top ones. And then
so what they'll do is they'll pretend to be a female.
It can happen as quickly as two minutes. So they'll
go straight into their DMS messaging them, and then they'll
ask them for they'll share nudes first. To get past
that child's resistance, they will go straight to sending nudes

(25:50):
first or a video of them doing you know, inappropriate things.
The young person. Then, because they've already got the nudes,
they get asked for nuds back. And because they've already
got the nudes, they already go, oh, well, they've trusted
me with their nudes, I can send nudes. And they're
persistent they will harass that child, So then the child
will send a nude back or send some nudes back.

(26:11):
And then once the once this predator has got the nudes,
then they'll say, I'm going to send this to all
your family and friends unless you send me one thousand
dollars or whatever, you know. And they usually use gift
cards and things like that because they know kids can't
get cash. Most of the time.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
I can imagine a kid that's been exploited like that,
how devastating it would be.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Like I said, it's quadrupled in the last twelve months,
and they are like they are relentless, and they're even
goading young people into killing themselves. So, like I said,
you know, there's a really good Shadows of the Web.
I think the AFP and ACE, the Australian Centered Counter
Child Exploitiation, just did a documentary it's on YouTube called

(26:55):
Shadows of the Web and they're talking about the fact
that a lot of these these people who are doing
this are in places like Nigeria or Thailand, you know,
third world countries. They're just basically call centers of people
sitting behind computers, targeting children, targeting young people, and then
you know, taking advantage of them. So that's sextortion in

(27:18):
a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Okay, how do you educate your kids not to get
caught up in that?

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Well, part of that is obviously talking honestly about what's
out there, and you know they're targeting children as young
as ten, and so if your child's got a smartphone
or a computer or chances are, chances are they're going
to get approached. Now you know, we can start by
building up their confidence, giving them all of those tools

(27:43):
to you know, it's okay to say no, you don't
have to do anything you don't want to do. But
then when they get to that age, we need to say, hey,
this is what's out there. There's people that will do
try and harm you on They'll ask for private, you know,
inappropriate photos and videos. This is how they're going to groomy.
And like I said earlier, you know, I get young
people contacting me out of the blue, well from all

(28:05):
over the world because I talk about this on TikTok
and they ask me for help, and there is no
help unfortunately, other than reporting it to you know, the police,
the ACE in Australia e Safety Commissioner. There is help
in that way, but these people already have the images
of videos or photos. There's no way to get them back.
The best thing you can do in that moment is

(28:26):
to stop conversing with them, take screenshots of everything, stop
conversing with them, block and report them on whatever app
they are on, and get some support from a parent
or a safe adult. Report it to ACE, because the
minute you pay them, they're not going to let go.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Okay, they've got their hook in you and they keep going.
You talked about building scaffolding protection and all that, and
when you're talking about that one thing that I'd take
us back to, you were saying that you've got to
get that message in across to your children. No matter
what's happened, you can tell me about it, because I
would understand if if kids have got to the point
where they take their own lives on that they're so

(29:04):
ashamed of what's happened and they haven't felt comfortable coming
out and talking about it. But it's just so sad
if these things are happening. So again, no matter what
you've done, we all make mistakes. Come and come and
speak to us and reinforce that.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, and be honest with your kids about that, like
it's okay if you make mistakes. I made mistakes as
a teenager. I made mistakes, you know, and also breaking
it down and saying you're not a bad person if
you make a mistake. Sometimes we do things that are
like our behavior is about or not appropriate or not right,
but you the person are an amazing person and you're

(29:41):
not a bad person. Because when we pull the behavior
away from the individual, then it makes it so much
more easier to understand that what you did was wrong,
but you are still an amazing here.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, it's a good way to break it up. It's
an important message. So okay, sextortion, that's one.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
What about gloomy Okay, So we go into two different
aspects of this. So the grooming can be where someone's
just looking. So we've got you know, the dark web
has a like chat room after chat room of how
to get images off children. So these people are basically
training each other on how to do it, and they

(30:18):
share children's if they get If one predator gets you know,
images or videos off a child, they'll share their user
name and say, now your turn, you go and try
and get some like they're just you know, they're all over.
And so how they do that is online grooming. They
have befriend the child if they're under twelve, usually they'll

(30:39):
befriend the child and pretend to be the same age.
Over twelve or maybe closer to fourteen, they might pretend
to be someone just a bit older. So they'll try
and ment multiple ways. And I'm saying this, one predator
can have multiple different usernames, different profiles, and they could
be trying to get this child's images or videos from
multiple different piles. So their whole purpose is to get

(31:02):
those images and photos and to basically groom that child
into a believing they're in a relationship or friendship with
that person.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah okay, and other things that with the computer about
where they're trying to meet with the child, like that
type of grooming. Because I know the police have been proactive,
and I love it when they catch these people that
have been online and thinking they're meeting the child and
they turn up and there's a big, ugly I know,
a detective sergeant there.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
I just wish there was more of that, you know that. Sadly,
I don't know the statistics on this, but it's not
happening as much as it used to, as in because
there's so much inappropriate content with children, right, so many
and one of the types of abuse that we see
is self produced content. So the child thinks they're talking

(31:53):
to another child, or they think they're talking to a
love interest, and they're encouraged to take photos, images, do
do something sexually explicit online and then the child doesn't
even know that they're talking to an adult, right, And
that's self produced content. And the Internet Watch Foundation over
in the UK, who's a not for profit, They actually
track all of these. They track these websites and they

(32:15):
basically take all of get the websites taken down. Their
hell purpose is to basically scan the Internet and find
this stuff. Right, And the largest group of abuse happens
between eleven and thirteen year eleven and thirteen girls. The
next biggest group is seven to ten girls. And then

(32:36):
this is self produced content. And then the last group
is three to six year old girls. Right okay, And
everyone says to me, how Christy, how three to six
year olds? Well, three year olds know how to take photos?
And they if someone's telling them what to do online
or a six year old, so they basically track it.
They classify the content that they're seeing ABC one, two,

(32:58):
three should have say, and they are basically sending it
off to law enforcement. So self produce content is massive
because kids are online. They don't realize that they're talking
to an adult. They're taking their own basically nudes and
sending it to someone they think they're trusting online or
because they're coerced or they're bullied or there.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Well, so all the stuff you're talking it just requires
that communication between the parent and the child, doesn't it
look out for this because as a kid, if you
don't have this conversation, and we don't have the luxury
of not having these conversations now from it. Just as
we were told don't talk to strangers back in our day,

(33:40):
this is a different world and you cannot afford not
to have these conversations with your children.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, So the online disinhibition effect, it's an actual thing.
Talk us through that, Yeah, coined by a psychologist like
twenty plus years ago. So kids think because they're behind
this device, they no one knows them. And that's a
that's part of the the prose of the internet. Because
for instance, and I had this conversation yesterday, someone said,

(34:05):
is there any benefits to social media and online for kids?
And I said, well, think about it from the point
of view, if you are a person living with a disability,
you're not disabled online. So there is prose because you
can be in that space and you can feel that
no one knows who you are, and so that's the positive.
But the negative is you're anonymous, so therefore you can

(34:27):
act and behave however you want, and you know behind
to be accountability without the accountability. That's another part of
the online disinhibition effect, Oh my goodness, is because they
feel like they don't there's no one accountable. I mean, yes,
police do go and arrest people, but it's not as
many people as we want because there's just too much
going online. And then there's the fact that it feels

(34:50):
like a game. It feels like it's not real life
when we abuse someone online or we say something or
we send that nude and adults get caught up in
this as well. You can just go on any comment
section on say elbows social media and you see it all.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
No, it's a well, I won't say a new world
that's been around a long time now, but it's a
different world that we've got to become accustomed to. Okay,
let's say that your child has come and spoken to
you and said that they've been sexually abused or in
whatever terminology. What's the steps that you should should take.

(35:25):
How do you break that down? Have you got examples
or yeah?

Speaker 2 (35:29):
So the first thing we should always do is thank
you for telling me, or say, you know, thank you
for telling me, because I think you know, the best
thing that anyone could ever hear is that it's okay
to say what you're saying, and it's I know it's
hard you say. You know, you basically tell them thank you,
you're so brave, how you know, and just check in

(35:51):
with them, Are you okay right now? Do I need
to do anything to make you feel safe right now?
Because in that moment it took a huge amount of courage.
There their actual mental and health, well, their well being
and their health right in that moment is the most
important thing. If there's a safety risk to the child
right in that moment, then we need to get police

(36:11):
onto it straight away. You know, if they're having to
go home to the perpetrator, or they're about to go
to the perpetrator's house or whatever, we need police involved
straight away.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Okay. So it could be a shared custody scenario, It
could be a child telling an auntie that she doesn't
want to go home with all sorts of things. So
if it gets to that point, you've got to.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Take immediate action.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, yeah, there's no excuse for just we'll see how
this plays out. Okay. The type of things that you
should ask the child or would you suggest Okay, if
it's you get a little bit of information and then
pass it on to the police or pass it on
to the appropriate authorities. What's your initial conversation. Do you

(36:56):
go for all the details?

Speaker 2 (36:57):
No, okay, you allow the child to tell you what
they want to tell you. You know, as long as they
are able to identify something's happened. You know, you don't
need to ask all of the questions because the police
need to ask that. And you know, if the child's
forthcoming with what they're telling you, then that's fine because
but don't get into and unfortunately it's really hard for

(37:17):
parents and people who love children, their child to not
go what did they do? How much? You know, because
that's quite traumatizing if you think about, you know, being
interrogating them about what's.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Happening, traumatized and also potentially contaminating evidence down the track.
And like you are specialist in that interviewing children, and
all different police forces have those skill sets. Yes, but
it's a specialist skill. It's about not asking leading questions,
letting the kid tell the story, creating an environment they're
comfortable in that type of thing. So get the version

(37:50):
from the child, assess it on the information, the circumstances,
and then take action.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, contact police if it's something that well, you need
to contact police anyway, come on. But a lot of
children when they tell someone, they just want to tell someone,
so they're going to go, Please don't tell anyone, Please
don't tell police, you know. And as an adults, as
an individual who you know, we need to make sure
that children understand they've done nothing wrong.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
That's such an important thing because a lot of a
lot of the offenders create that belief in the child's
head that they're complicit in the thing that's being done. Yep.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
And they make children feel like they're either in a
relationship or that they're special, and they've done all of
this stuff to make this child completely not complete. It's
not the word that to make this child believe that
that if they tell someone, they're going to get in trouble,
or if they tell someone, the offender is going to
get in trouble. And you know, children just sometimes and
this is something this is a hard thing for most

(38:50):
people to understand, is children do not want their abusers
to be in trouble. Ultimately, it's only when you become
an adult and you have adult feels and emotions and
you realize the damage has done this when you go right,
I want them to, you know, be responsible for what happened.
Children just wanted to stop. And so we need to

(39:11):
handle children with care. We need to make sure that
they know that it's not their fault, that they didn't
do anything wrong, that what that adult did is you know,
they've been the ones who've done something wrong. And I
had a person on my podcast say to me, she's
from Tasmania and she said to me, one hundred percent
of the girls in her family and seventy five percent
of the boys in her family have been sexually abused.

(39:34):
And she said, and she was dealing with a cousin
who was, you know, going through the court process with
her offender. And she said, has anyone ever said to
you that you actually did nothing wrong and this is
not your fault? And she said, no one, And she
was a thirty year old woman.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, that makes it hard, doesn't it make?

Speaker 2 (39:50):
See so hard? It does because as children we take
on the burden or children take on the burden of
the adults. They take on the fact that and there's
so many barriers to a child saying hey, this is
happening to me. The grooming is one aspect. The love
of the offender can be an aspect, The fact that
there might be violence in the home can be an aspect,

(40:11):
The fact that they don't know if they're going to
be safe can be an aspect. All of these aspects.
But then you go on and take them to the
police station and then you sit them in a room
across the table with a camera going, and they don't
have a safe person in that room. And it's done
in that way for a specific reason because of the
Evidence Act and because of how they you know, we
don't want children to be feel like they have to

(40:32):
say something or not say something because the adult or
a family member is in the room. And so they've
got so many factors that stop them from disclosing. If
the interviewer and the child don't get along, if the
interviewer and the child, if the child feels pressured, if
the child doesn't understand what's happening.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
You know.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
So there's so many ways and adults struggle with this stuff.
We need to have a bit more compassion for children to.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, well, I think, and probably giving the adults an
understanding of what their child's going to go through, because
I would imagine then I've had people contact me and
ask me, what's going to happen. I want to report this,
what's going to happen with my child? Just talk the
process through. What happens if a child comes in to
report being brought in by a parent or a responsible

(41:18):
adult that there've been a victim of sexual abuse. What's
the processes that the child goes through.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, so the initial process is to take the basic details,
start the investigative process. The child might not get interviewed
straight away, dependent on the situation. So for instance, if
the abuser isn't in the home or the child doesn't
go home to that person, then they might give it
a day or two to line up their ducks and

(41:45):
get everything in line. If the child's in immediate danger,
then they're going to recall people and they're going to
get someone in to do it straight away, because police
often work with Department of Child Protection or whatever they're
called in your state to come up with a safety plan.
If the child's in a mediate danger, so that's in
a Priority one perspective. If they're not in immediate danger,

(42:05):
then it might take a couple of days, but the
initial investigation starts. It's allocated to a detective because it's
not something that general duties can obviously investigate in I'm
pretty sure it would be every state. And then the
detective then starts the process. The first process or the
first part of that investigation is to get the child's evidence.

(42:26):
So that's through a specialist child interviewer or an interview,
and sometimes you know, if you're in a rural area,
that might not be straight away, that might be weeks
from now because you have to either travel, they have
to travel someone out to you, which used to happen
a lot with me. And then you know, then once
that interview's happened, then the actual work starts. So if

(42:47):
the child discloses, and I'm sad to say not all
children will disclose the abuse, they might tell that safe adult,
but then they won't tell the detective or the person
interviewing them. In those cases, if there's no evidence other evidence,
then the file or the case will have to be
filed in sufficient evidence, and then you know that it's

(43:08):
the child going potentially back into that home where that
person is. It's the hardest thing. It is the hardest
thing I have ever had to because a lot of
the time I would interview kids. Not a lot, but
quite a lot. But you know, I would interview kids
and I would know they were abused and they would
not say anything to me. But through that process I

(43:31):
did see kids come back and then that when they
were safe from that abuser, they would come back and
say something.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think even if it doesn't get to that point
where charges can be laid because the child won't reveal
at least, and it doesn't work all the time, but
at least it's put on those as a person, the offender,
the hole that you've being looked at.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, but sadly, I don't think you know, some of
these people just think, oh, well got away with it,
and then they ramp it up, or they grew like
they you know, the child's then silenced more. You know,
it's just, yeah, there's no Since coming out of the police,
I thought, you know, when I was in the police,
I was like, we're doing everything we can, and I'm

(44:13):
sure you're the same, right, We're doing everything we can
where this is the way we can have to do it,
This is all all we can do. Since leaving, I
see that there's some big holes in the whole process,
But you know that's the system we've got and that's
all we've got.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
To use, and it's a system with child abuse. It's
so it just seems to me to be so under resource.
That's one consistency I can say confidently across the board.
Any time I talk to any police officer or form
of police officer that works in the sexual abuse or
child abuse areas, they're always overworked and not sufficient resources.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
No, that's right. And yeah it's never enough and there's
not enough money.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Like I always used to like make the comments when
I was still in the job, like this is one
crime type that should have all the money.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Well, when you look at if we're trying to reduce
crime and like the impact it has on drug addiction,
Like how many people find their peace going to drugs
and dig a little bit deeper what caused them to
turn the drugs in the first place to master pain
that they had from when they were sexually abused? So yeah,
well how about you and I, just two ex cops,
put it out there to the States politicians if they

(45:24):
want to have a platform for the next election on
law and order, you want to reduce crime, reduce child
sexual abuse? Yes, I think that would be a good
platform that can be their slogan. Yeah, definitely, what if
you suspect someone of being a sexual abuser of a child,
you haven't got the evidence you suspect them, and yeah,

(45:45):
there's no there's a lot of gray areas there. But
what sort of advice would you give if someone if
someone came to you and said, look this person that
I see hanging around the kids at the local football
game each week, there's something that doesn't seem quite right.
Or a child has made a comment, oh, he always
takes us into the toilets. What do you do with

(46:05):
that information?

Speaker 2 (46:07):
So, from my experience, the best thing we can do
is the children with empower empowered children. In fact, they
went and surveyed or interviewed child sex offenders in a
Queensland prison and they asked the question, if you weren't
able to complete the offense or complete the abuse, why

(46:27):
didn't you? So they asked them, you know, you did
the grooming, but you didn't finish, like complete the abuse,
and the child's resistance was the reason. Why. So when
a child's confident, when they know their rights, when they
understand that they you know, adults shouldn't act this way
or other children should n act this way, and they
offer resistance in the form of no going, you know, leaving,

(46:52):
you know, don't not putting up with that behavior, telling
an adult, then a child sex offender can't complete the offense.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
That's huge, and it's a really interesting statistic and it
winds it right back to where we started. You've got
to empower the kids very early. And I could imagine
the way that they approach. It's like strengthening the house
with all alarms and bars on the window, people, and
a break into that. To the next house. Yeah, go

(47:19):
to the next house with a child that has the
confidence to say no, because most kids don't unless unless
you give them that power to say no to an adult,
because we've been taught to be compliant to adults all
through childhood.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
So okay, So the two things that stop child sex
offenders offending against a child is the confidence and on
the noncomplicity of the child and the parent protective parent,
because a sex offender or someone who wants to abuse
children will not pick the child that has the parent
where they will get found out, or they won't pick
the child that will offer of resistance or won't go

(47:53):
along with it. They'll pick the next child. Like you
just said. So in saying that, how do how do
we do all of this?

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Exactly?

Speaker 2 (48:00):
We create confidence in our children. We talk to them.
And in those circumstances where you're in a club or
you're in somewhere that you know, you see something like that,
First of all, make sure the kids around you know
that you're the safe adult. You know, hey, if anyone
ever mistreats you, does anything you don't like, you ever
feel unsafe, please come and tell me, because you know

(48:22):
they if they don't know what to do, how can
they go and do it? And then the second thing
is to make sure that person knows you watch them.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Well. I'm just thinking that that scenario, you could walk
over there because people don't want them. It's a horrible
allegation if it's an unfounded allegation, but you could be
walking there with some confidence, say hey, what's going on here?

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Or hey you kids are good?

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Like everyone okay here? Oh what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah? Just put the spotlight on them, Just just.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Watch them a bit, just pay attention, let them know
that you're paying attention, call out there, and ultimately call
out there inappropriate behavior. If you ever see it because
this is the one thing and we we talk I
talk about this all the time. I had, you know,
I have people say to me, I don't know how
to say not to do this, And I'm like, because
you know, hey, my my the grandfather of my children,

(49:12):
you know, pat them on the bum all the time.
And I'm like, okay, and they're like, I don't know
how to tell them not to do that. Hey, that's
an inappropriate behavior. Shouldn't do it around kids, you know,
call out inappropriate behavior when you see it.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, that's I like that that approach, that it's all
it's a bit awkward, like it's you know, it's just granddad.
But no, that behavior is not appropriate anymore. Yeah, we
don't do that.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
And it's and it's you know I always get that.
Oh but you know how many female sex offenders and
the criminologists That was on my podcast. She said it's
actually up around twenty percent, And I was like that,
you know, that's not one I've heard until recently. And
and but they do the same things. It's exactly the
same behavior as exact same things that they do, and
we should be calling out male female anyone.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Well, we're starting to see it. It's come out a
little bit more where women have had inappropriate relationships teenagers
and different things. We're becoming more aware, but that's what
it's all about. Like the conversation that we've sat down
and had over the podcast chat, Now, these are the
type of things. They're awkward conversations. They're not conversations that
people tend to just drift towards because you don't want

(50:21):
to talk about this, and especially if you're sitting around
in a family environment and rattling off those statistics and
everyone's sort of looking around looking at each other. But
I think it's needed to be done, and there's simple
processes that you're putting in place. And yeah, I think
it's good on you for getting it out there. Where

(50:41):
can people get your book? Because I highly recommend it
and I look at it from a cops point of view,
How can you prevent crime and preventions better than cure
and so prevent crime? Where can they get your book?
Operation Kids Safe?

Speaker 2 (50:55):
It's available on Amazon and Audible. So I did actually
record it.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
How is that? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (51:00):
That was cool. It was a really cool process. But
after three days of recording and I think sixteen hours
for anyone listening and who listens to the audible or
the s it's on Spotify and Audible. I sound really
calm at the start, and then my voice gets really
high at the end.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Gutsy I with my books, say asked whether I wanted
to do the audio, and I thought it would be
pretty pretty easy. But my friend Rob Carlton did it,
who's an actor, and I'm just so glad I didn't
do it.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Really Yeah, look, I think it would have been fine.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
In hindsight, but there was a lot of work that
goes into it.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
And yeah, yeah, it was fun. Yeah and yeah. So
and it was actually friends who kept saying, Christy, I
don't have time to read your book, can can you
record it?

Speaker 1 (51:44):
It's a good way of taking taking the information in
So okay, so you can get it in audio and
through Amazon your podcasts. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
So it's called the CAPE podcast, which CAPE stands for
Child Abuse Prevention and Education. Yeah, it's just on Apple, Spotify,
all of those.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
And that the risk of getting you in undated with
people reaching out. Have you got a profile anywhere that
people can see what you're doing and where you're doing
your talks or if they want to get you doing
the talk or whatever.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah. Perfect, So I'm on TikTok as TikTok cop paid
you one. I've had that profile for three years and
yeah and so and funnily enough, well not funny. Sixty
seven thousand people follow me at the moment on that
one profile, which is crazy, Like I do not I
just share when I think about things and when I
feel like sharing, and you know, people are really grateful

(52:38):
for what I'm sharing. And then on Instagram, those are
the two most platforms I use most is Christy mcv
just my name, okay, And again on Instagram, I share
more information, free resources, all of that stuff. So yeah,
the book itself was everything I could think of, and
in every chapter I give age approp for your guidance

(53:01):
of what to talk about, how to talk about it,
et cetera. But on Instagram and that I'm dropping information
about red flags, you warning, science, behaviors, all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Well, your passion comes across and I want to congratulate
you on the fact that clearly you're a passionate police officer.
And when you leave the cops, I know it's sometimes
hard to think, how can I do something that gives
me such purpose in life. But your passion comes across
in what you're doing now, and I honestly believe in

(53:32):
the space that you are, you're making a bigger difference
in what you could have been in the police and
the police. You're helping people individual cases, but you're getting
a real strong message across and you should be very
proud of yourself. And I'm rapped that come on the
podcast and you've taught me a shitload. So I've got
to get back to my kids and apologize. So it

(53:53):
could have been, it could have been a better parent.
But yeah, if people want to hear more from you,
it's all there, and get into that book. So thanks
for coming across. I hope the walk on the Harbor
Bridge goes well for you, and I hope Sidney puts
on a sunny day. Thank you cheers. I got to say,

(54:17):
I think Christy mcveie is making a bigger difference in
the world of crime outside the cops than she ever
could inside the cops. She's so informative about child's sexual abuse,
ways to prevent and stop it, and I'm so happy
that she's out there doing this work because we're going
to stop this offense, and people like Christie talking about it.
Educating people is making a difference