Remembering Andrew Krakouer: Footy star to prison inmate Pt.1

WARNING: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander readers are advised that the following podcast contains the name and voices of deceased persons.

The team at I Catch Killers is deeply saddened by the passing of former guest and footy star Andrew Krakouer. Rest in peace.

This episode is from the archives, and was first published on 31 March 2024.

AFL star Andrew Krakouer was at the height of his footy career when he was sent to prison. It was a place he hoped never to end up, after spending his childhood visiting his own father in jail. In 2008, he was found guilty of serious assault, swapping his footy jersey for prison greens. Looking back at his life, Krakouer talks Gary Jubelin through the highs and lows. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, it's Garry jubilin here. I've got some sad
news over the weekend. Former Eye Catch Killers guest and
footy star Andrew Crackett passed away. I was fortunate enough
to meet Andrew a couple of years ago, and I
got to say I was impressed by the person that
he was. He went through some good times and bad times.
He was an AFL star who played one hundred and

(00:20):
thirty seven games for Richmond and Collingwood football clubs. But
what impressed me about Andrew was what he was giving
back to society. He had some tough times, but he
was such a great role model and he's going to
be sadly missed. So remember Andrew. We thought we'd re
release this episode we recorded with him in Melbourne last year.

(00:40):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking in the public endo the world in which

(01:01):
I operated.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
The guests I talk to.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.
The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people
I talk to. Some of the content and language might
be confronting. That's because no one who comes in the
contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as
I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode

(01:26):
of I Catchkillers. This episode is brought to you by
Corrections Victoria. Today, we're going to have a look into
life behind the prison walls from both sides. Over the
next couple of weeks, we'll talk to AFL star Andrew Cracker,
who found himself locked behind bars at the height of
his football career. It was in two thousand and eight
the former Collingwood and Richmond player was found guilty of

(01:47):
assaulting a man outside of nightclub. He was sentenced to
thirty two months imprisonment for the offense. Andrew used his
time in prison to work on himself, and that led
to him being granted day release from prison. Now on
the outside of the prison walls, Andrew is helping others
by sharing his story. With the help of Corrections Victoria,
we'll also be talking to Clint Walker, an Aboriginal well

(02:08):
been officer from barw And Prison, and Kylie Davey as
soon your prison officer at Louden Prison. All three have
fascinating stories to tell and provide an insight into a
world few of us get to see. Andrew Cracker, Welcome
to I Catch Killers.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Thanks Garry, thanks for having me. Mate.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
You've had a You've had a pretty interesting life. You've
you know, you've reached the dizzy heights of AFL player
and professional sportsman. You've done time in prison, you're hosting
the TV show, you're the father of four daughters. You've
got you've had some highs and lowers. How's life for
you at the moment.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's life's good. Lofe's good, certainly, certainly plenty of ups
and downs and reading reading out sort of how my
life sort of panned out. It's that it is a
fair there's a fevid that's happened in there, you know,
probably the biggest greatest achievement of mine. Of the four girls,
so that they're they're all going well to out home
and living their own lives. One of the girls are
married and the two young ones at home, so they

(03:04):
certainly keep me on my toes. But yeah, looking back
on the AFL career and how I was involved in
two great clubs in Richmond and Collingwood and almost almost
a part of a Grand final, but the Cats are
too good in twenty eleven. But to be able to
look back, and you know, obviously there's a fair bit
to go still in my journey and my story, but
thus far to look back, there's a lot of achievements

(03:26):
I'm pretty proud of.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, I'm glad you look at that way, and we're
obviously we're going to talk about your time in prison,
but yeah, that can break a lot of people, and
it's good that you can come through it. Your life
is about having highs and layers, and you've certainly I
can only imagine what it's like to be a professional
sportsman with fifty thousand people cheering you on and you're
taking a mark or whatever, and then you're having the

(03:50):
prison door locked and you're inside. That is the highs
and layers.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, well, you know, one week you're running out in
front of sixty seventy thousand at the mcg and as
you said, having a or when you take a take
a mark or kick anice goal or do a rundown tackle,
and then all of a sudden you're running out and
playing footy at in prison and there's not too many
and there's not too many rules as well. So and
hearing you know that first night, you know, with the
door slamming, was a reality and a really real wake

(04:17):
up call to understand the situation where I was in
you know, there's a lot of dynamics involved in that.
But then to realize you know that through my actions,
you know where I was and what was going to
be home for the next sixteen months at least. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, And I don't think unless you've actually been to
prison you can fully appreciate the impact that has just
the fact and not even if you don't make it
that far in prison, if you've been under arrest, having
someone else tell you what to do when you can
do it, that type of things, it's confronting, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
It certainly is Kerry. You think about as a as
an AFL player, you rock up and your schedules there
in front of you. You just need to rock up and
do what you need to do. Your weight, so you've
got a dietisian to help you to sort of keep
you on track, and so your body is in the
right neck to be able to perform at an elite level.
So everything's at your fingertips, and then all of a
sudden you're in the justice space and in the justice system,

(05:12):
and you're getting told what to do, when to do,
how to do it, when you can talk to your family,
how long you can see them for. So it is
a wake up call, and it's a roode shock to
the system, and certainly one that took me a little
bit to get used to. But you know, I look
back on it now and think things you take for
granted to go to the shop, go and get a coffee,
go and give you kiss, give your kids a kiss

(05:33):
good night, and wake up with them in the morning.
Those things you probably take for granted, and then you
don't realize how important they are to you and how
much they mean to you until they're taken away.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
In a sort of strange way, having that experience in
prison puts the rest of it in perspective, doesn't it
that you need to be appreciative of those little moments
that you've just described.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Oh, one hundred percent, it does. It's you know, as
I said, my personal story. You know, I'm speaking my
own journey, you know, being an AFL player and then
also being in the prison system. You just you know,
the little things that you do take for granted, and
then all of a sudden you get those freedoms back,
you get your own freedom back, and you know, and
all of a sudden you're allowed to you probably look

(06:14):
over your shoulder a little bit once you get out,
and then thinking, you know what I must do, and
here I've usually got people looking over my shoulder. But
then you've got your own freedom back, so and then
you realize how important that is. And as you said,
to be able to take my little ones to school
and pick them up, and it was certainly an eye opener.
And you know, something I've never taken for granted granted
after that experience.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Okay, I want to go right through the experience. I
want to hear what it's like and the things that
kept you pointed when you hit the let's call it
rock by them. I think you can call it rock
by them if you're locked up in prison. But you
managed to turn that around the news it in a positive,
a positive sense. I want to talk about that. But
let's find out a little bit more about you before

(06:53):
we take you into prison. So where were you born?
What's your backstory?

Speaker 2 (06:58):
I was born here in Nam is the Aboriginal word
for Melbourne. So born here in arm and my country
over in West Australia is Borlu. So when I do
try to refer to these terms, I'd like to be
able to use that that Aboriginal language, because growing up
I didn't use it too much. So Nam is here
in Melbourne. I'm a proud menang Nunga and Ingra Yamiji man.

(07:19):
So the area of menang Nungo is the great southern
of Western Australia. Mount Barker for about four hundred k's
south of Perth and Canarvin is where Yamaji people are from.
My mother's mob from aver in Perth as well, so,
which is about nine hundred to one thousand k's north
of Perth. So but then born here in Aram because
Dad was playing for North Melbourne at the time.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Right, So your father was a bit of a legend
of a football player.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yes, it wasn't too bad. He as a young fellow.
I just went to the crash and I didn't really
see him play too much. Footy and I was there
with my went to the crashy with my other cousins,
Uncle Phil, he was played footy with Dad as well.
So but I didn't realize actually how good they were
in I'm not being a bit biased because they're my
father and but just the impact that they had in
the Trailblazers and pioneers they were, especially with First Nations

(08:07):
people playing VFL football at that time, there was just
a handful. You look at it, you look at it
these days and how many are in the system now.
It's just you know, you've got players left, right and
center and over, probably one hundred players in the AFL space,
So it's absolutely huge. And you think about you know,
guys like the late Morris Rowley rest in peace, Michael McLean,
Robbie Muller at St. Kilder as well, and Dad and

(08:29):
Uncle Phil being a part of that, you know, to
be able to help and support young people coming through
the system and realize how good, how my bar and
they do deserve to be in that space. So it's yeah,
I didn't realize how good they were until I was
a little bit older and I could see some highlights myself.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
I suppose that's that's the fact you grew up with it.
I thought everyone's dad played for for fl You know,
you didn't didn't fully appreciate it. So when did you
get into football? When did football become a part of
part of your life?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Ten years old? I think I played for the Glady
Park Cooker Boroughs, so they were a red jumper with
the blue stripe across the front. Lived in Gladston Park
and grew up there with my younger brother and two
older sisters and mums. So yeah, at a young age,
you know, I really loved, loved my footy. So that's
that's my first experiences and happened. It happened to be okay,

(09:19):
and one a few trophies, and but more importantly I
enjoyed it. It was it was a lot of fun, okay.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
And where where did you Where did you think that
you're going to make a career Did you ever envisage
that you'd make a career playing football? Or you just
playing because you love chasing the ball around and tackling
and having some fun.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
It was the letter, It certainly was the letter. It
wasn't an ambition of mine to try to follow dad
football foot steps as I said, I didn't really know
the kind of impact and the dance he had in
the in the game in the VFL, so I just
liked it. My mates were doing it and I happened
to be okay at it. So I was never ever thought, well,
I want to play AFL one day. I grew up
barracking for North Melbourne, Wayne Wayne Kerry, Garryabler for Geelong

(10:01):
and guys. I loved watching Winston Abraham is another nong
A man from Wa that I loved how he went
about it. He was really flashy, kicked really good goals,
took nice marks. But it wasn't you know. I just
liked it because my Mason playing it and it was
fun fair enough.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
But you did take you back to Western Australia at
one stage.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, it certainly did. So that sort of went
through my junior stage. So we're talking about once I
got into the AFL system.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, Jared Neisham the first Doctor's coach, is it.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yes, yes, yes, so through so through my teenage years
I lived down near koobl Up and Hammi Hill and
spent a fair bit of time around there and Jared
Neisham when I went to Clontaft Academy. So that was
the initial the first year and obviously we've known anyone
who knows about Clontaft. Now it's a national program and
it's doing really well at the moment. So first first

(10:52):
year of Clontaft there was probably a thirty thousand dollar budget.
You know, there was a first time I was going
to go and be involved in the school with all
average First Nations kids. So that was enticing and something
that wanted me. I wanted to go and be a
part of that.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Brok just on that I read in prepping for the
podcast that that was the first time year the experience
a school with all Indigenous children.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah. Correct.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Did that give you a sense of sense of belonging?
Does that change your outlook on things?

Speaker 2 (11:20):
I think it did. I think because most schools I
went to was obviously you know, I had non Indigenous
and all different races and a diverse communities within those
schools and there so it was really Yeah, I think
I just that sense of belonging at I really enjoyed
going to the school and meeting meeting guys from different
areas and then sort of trying to make those connections.
Do his First Nations people. We you meet him, he's

(11:41):
asking what the last name is, and then you try
to make a connection or who's your mob, where you're
from you know? Or do you know this person or
that person? And a lot of the guys we had
a connection somehow, first or second degree to be able
to be connected somehow, So it was it was great.
I really enjoyed it. And I think Jared with his
being the inaugural coach for the Dockers, and he had
a fair few Indigenous First Nations boys in the in

(12:03):
his team as well when he Abraham was there, young
Arthur Taylor, you know, Scotty Chisholm, Gary, the Durkue Rest
in Peace. There was a lot a lot of great
young players there. So for Jered to be able to
have that connection and then to be able to come
back and want to support young people coming through the
education system and using football as a vehicle to keep
us engaged in school and making sure that if we're

(12:25):
not doing the right things in class, we can't be
part of the program.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
He was a really good role model to a lot
of How important do you think that is? So I
think that's a good a good thing to instill in
someone that you know, if you're not doing well in school,
you're not going to be part of the football set up.
Is that important?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
I think it's a It is a great initiative, but
you know, if you're if you're if you're struggling on
the academic side, you may not think so, but you know,
you need to be able to make sure that your
your education is at a space where you can you know,
you can do well for yourself. You can try to
set yourself up and be successful. Whatever that looks like.
Successful looks different to different people, so you know, what

(13:01):
someone sees its success, it might not be for someone else.
You know, everyone's at the different journey within their lives.
So I think it was just it was great to
make sure that, you know, we had an accountability as well. Yes,
we were good footballers and we were part of a
really good program, but that's not what we're here for.
We were here to help you and support you and
to set you up for life after school. So education
is important. Yes, football is great, and you're going to

(13:22):
learn some great things and morals and value through football,
but we need to be able to find that balance
and connected too. So I thought it was a great initiative.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, and I think people are starting to understand that
some of the on Sydney base. So it's more the
NRL type coaches and sport that is followed up there,
but good coaches are starting to see, or good teams,
big teams are starting to see the importance of not
just creating good sportsmen, but creating good people in the sports.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
One hundred percent. And that's a lot of the time.
You do hear that people, well, if you're if you're
in those kinds of circles, you're talented. You know you
can play the game, whether it be NRL, whether it
be AFL. They know yet that you've got the talent,
and so you want to be able to make sure
you're coachable, You get along with teammates, you can connect
with other people, take constructive criticism sometimes isn't easy, but

(14:08):
you know, to make it at that elite level, even
as a young person, you know it's important to be
able to make sure you can take those things on
board and be able to try to get better. But
thinking about those you know, a lot of guys are
in business now as well. They have that balance life
and work balance and sports balance to be able to
make sure yep, I'm looking after what I need to
to pay the bills and play elite sports, but then

(14:28):
that's not going to last forever. So I need to
be able to make sure I set myself up and
make that transition when football finishes or rugby finishes, to
be able to make that transition as smooth as possible.
So to be able to instill those those values and
morals at a young age that Jared try to do
for us young guys and leading into the AFL system
is really important, and even more so, like I look

(14:49):
back at my time and didn't probably utilize it as
better best as I could have, you know, during my
AFL time, But then you think about it now, you
know you've got to try to you know, it's a
short period to play that elite sport, make hey well
the sunshines, do as much as you can, and then
to be able to try to make that transition and
those football at leade sports as smooth as possible.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Another point, a little bit off track, but this is
just my theory, and I haven't played sport at the
level you're played, but being part of team sport is
so good for life skills I'd see it. I'd see
it and that sounds strange, but I'd see it in investigations.
When I'd put a strike force together a group of investigators,
I could almost tell who had played team sport in

(15:30):
their childhood because the way they interacted with the group.
Do you see the benefits of being part of a
team sport one?

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Because everyone's got a different skill set and everyone that well,
in a football sense, the end goal is doing games
of football, but then you need to be able to
come as a collective and bring your different skill sets
to be able to achieve that that end goal. So
it's you know, not everyone can kick goals, not everyone
can be through the middle and win the foot, and
not everyone's a great defender. So I think to be

(15:58):
able to understand and how to work with others, understand
other skill set and then to be able to try
to compliment those as well, it is really important. And
you know, there's some some values and some things that
some morals that I've learned through football that I'll still
hold close to my heart and live with these through today.
So it's it's extremely important for me, and you know,
I love being part of team sports. Not for everyone

(16:19):
but I think, as you said, when you put teams together,
you can understand who has been a part of team
sports growing up, and you.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Can see the way they react with others and the
way they can get on with the group. So you're
you're there, you're sixteen, and then you manage to get
yourself become a father at sixteen.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yes, yes, it's obviously unplanned, Gary, unplanned, But yeah, I
let me say this.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Things happened. I'm sure you've worked it out right now.
How it happened.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes, yes, I've got a fair idea how it happened. Yeah.
It responsibility, It's huge responsibility. You know Dad will probably
touch on a little bit later as well. Dad and
still incarcerated at this time, so you know, sort of
didn't sort of have too many male role models and
support in my life. But then you know, you've got
to take accountability of your actions and what happens. And

(17:12):
you know, at a young age it could have been
quite easy for you know, not to be able to
take responsibility for that. But how well was it? You know,
Barbara still with her today, you know, got a young
girl pregnant, and I had to take responsibility for that.
So bringing a young a young girl and a little
child into this world. Was absolutely difficult. It was it
was hard. It was I was still a kid, So

(17:34):
I was lucky. I had some great support from not
only my mum and sisters, but you know, Barbara's mum
and sisters and family as well. So two young kids,
having a child trying to go to school was Yeah,
it's a favorite on my plate.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, no doubt there was. But yeah, that's a potential
sliding door moment. You could have you could have lost it,
but you you accepted your responsibilities. And I think that
even in the adverse ways or that drove you further
towards football, that you had to make a living, you
had to succeed.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well, it's funny to say that because even we're talking
about football and Clontarft and why I played the game,
it was because I enjoyed it. And then I remember
speaking to Jared about the draft, and you know, being
the son of Jimmy Cracker, you know, you probably sort
of people think about you and possibly have a look
at you and thinking what was he good enough to
play at the level And wasn't my ambitions as I

(18:24):
spoke about previously, But you know, the reason why I
did choose to play foot he was to look after
my family. I remember when Jared spoke to me about it.
I said, oh, well, I can't play football because I
need to provide for my family and I need to
find a living where I'm going to be able to
support them. Jared said, well, if you get drafted, you're
going to be able to earn enough monage to look
after your family. So I said, well, I'll sign up

(18:45):
and yeah, committed to the draft and yeah. Luckily I
was able to get picked up by the late great
Danny Frawley and the Richmond Footy Club in two thousand,
so they were and they were great support and Dale
weightman as well as the play well for manager at
the time, so you know, understanding, you know who I
had coming with me as well my partner and my
daughter and then to be able to support me on

(19:06):
that journey if they were amazing.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, So that was life was start off a little
bit rocky when you become a dad at sixteen, but
you've signed up, you've signed up with you you're on
the way to making that there's a professional footballer. Life's
pretty good for you at that stage.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, it's the first three years. Your life was good.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
I was.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
I was with my little one and Barbara and Mum
who came over and my sister. We moved over to Melbourne,
and yeah, life was good. I was enjoying, enjoying my
time at Richmond. I didn't really think I was a
part of the senior side just yet. I still had
a fair bit to learn and to be able to
understand what was required to be an AFL player and
to be able to make an impact at AFL level.

(19:49):
So it probably took me about three years to understand
what was really required. How I needed to train, the sleep,
that I had to have, alcohol intake, a diet, and
all those kinds of things I never thought about, or
you know, I never came into my thinking to play football.
But then once you get to this level, there's so
many other things. That's what separate boxes need to tick.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Absolutely, So it took a little bit and it was
a massive culture shock, you know, being you know, I
spent a fair bit of time in Melbourne growing up,
but then to be able to come over again, it
was just huge shock, you know, to come into an
AFL club and then yeah, to see how they operate
and you see these guys on TV that you know,
all of a sudden are your teammates and these guys
are superstars. It took a little bit to get used to.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, and did you enjoy it? Like I know it's
I look at it, You know, wow, that would be great.
But there's pressure that's associated with performing at that level
and you get critiqued on everything you do.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent, because at the end of
the day, it's a result driven industry. If you don't
get the results, and you know everything's going to go
through with a fine tooth coming to be able to
see how you can get better. People are not performing
at the level that they need to while we'll get
someone else who can. So it's a cutthroat industry. So
it's it was hard and sort of going back to
what I spoke about before. And you know, criticism and

(21:05):
you know you're not doing the right thing, and the
coach looks in between the eyes and absolutely gives it
to you, and you're to think how you got to
get better to be able to make sure you perform
and you know you understand your skill set and how
you're going to be able to help help the team
be better. So it was a little bit hard to
understand all that and to be able to get to
a level required where I could play play some good

(21:25):
good foot at senior level. But it was a journey
just to you know, first off, I was just enjoying
there being for the ride. But then I understanda while,
I'm not here to make up the numbers. You know,
I need to be able to make sure at the
end of the day, if I don't do well, I'm
not going to be able to look after my family.
So I need to be able to get better and
be able to put food on the table.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Okay, So that was a sort of driving force and
a lot of what you're achieving running with making that
there's a professional football or a young young family and
all the pressures associated with just day to day living.
You also had something else in the going on in
your life in that your father ended up in prison.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, so we'll go back and sort of I'll tell
you sort of the story of how that happened. As
we spoke about before being over in Melbourne, we didn't
get too much time to be able to go back
to w A and spend time with the family. But
every Christmas was our annual trip back and we're able
to go back and you know, go down to Mount
Barker and you know, as a young kid, you know,
not seeing all these cousins and then all of a sudden,

(22:23):
you know you've got probably a couple of streets where
you know you nearly related to everyone. You know, early
in the morning, the kids are just jumping up and
you know you're going to play cricket or footy or
going for a walk to the pool or something like that,
or sort of especially Christmas days, you're coming up for
a big feed. And it was fun. You know, there's
something I look forward to all the time, and you know,
we had really great experiences. I'll still look back and

(22:45):
see some photos of those times and you know, everyone happy,
and you know, just young fellas and stars were a
little bit different then, but great photos and great memories.
And so from from as long as I can remember,
we went across every year. And when we went over
for a trip when I was about ten years old,
that's when things for our family would change, how everyone's lives.

(23:07):
I remember going down to Mount Barker, spending our time
and Chrissy period with the family and then expecting to
come back up to Perth and then get on a
plane and come back to Melbourne. So as we did that,
we're staying with my uncle uncle Bill rest in Peace
at his house. And we went up there and it

(23:28):
was just a quiet It was an odd, odd approach
to the house. I remember Mum getting out of the car,
my Annie getting out of the car. And usually once
you get to the house, you usually you know, you
go run into the fridge, or you're going to get
some toys or jump on a bike or whatever it
may be. But it was a real steady, slowly approach
and we were held back as well by Mum. And
then we got to the front door. Arnie opened the door,

(23:50):
looked to the left and the house had been roundsacked.
The couches flipped upside down, the TV flipped and that
was a common theme throughout the house, every room we
went to. I remember getting to the end of the
house and I was holding my mum's hand all the
way through and I said, oh, Mum, where's Dad And
Mom said, oh, I'm not I'm not sure where he is.
So and us we didn't know what was going on,

(24:11):
what was happening, and then probably a little bit after that,
Mum said that Dad got in a bit of trouble
and we might not see him for a little while.
So as a young kid, you're not really understanding what's
going on and you know the charges, what I do,
what I understand, and what happened? Now you know, why
is Dad not here? When's he's coming home? You know,
you know this isn't fair as a young kids, a
ten year old, yeah, absolutely it was. So to be

(24:33):
able to try to understand and comprehend, you know, what
was going on was really difficult. So then finding out
that dad was Dad was charged and eventually found guilty
and sentenced to sixteen years in prison as a young
kid was really difficult.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
What was the offenses drug trafficking, So.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
That was a that was a real that was really
hard to comprehend and to you know, thinking how that happened,
and you know, the dynamic of family is going to
change for every now where we're going to live, what
we're going to do, how we're going to see dad.
All these kinds of things were really difficult to understand,
and Mom did as best she could could to try
to keep the family together. But you know, as a
young kid, you just love being around your dad. Then

(25:14):
all of a sudden, you know you taken away from you.
You're only going to see him on the weekends, really,
and you don't have a phone call and jump on
the phone. It probably for a couple of minutes every
couple of every day or so.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
That's the thing. I don't think people fully appreciate the
impact that when one person in the family sentenced to prison,
the impact on how many lives it impacts on. And
you know that's not diminishing these victims in these crimes
and everything else, but when people are sentenced to prison,
that it's a sentence for the whole family as well,
isn't it?

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah? One hundred percent is it? You know, we look
back at that time now and understand that how we
were impacted, and it was it was trauma, was traumatic.
You know, it's still something that when you speak about it,
you relive those moments, you're taken back like it happened yesterday.
So it was really tough and obviously on the family.
You know, as I said, my brothers and sisters and

(26:05):
mum as well, and even extended found me. You know, Dad,
sisters and brothers and our cousins. You know, everyone, everyone
was hurting and it was a really really tough time
for everyone.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
And did you you have memories of going to visit
your father in prison.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, I do. We sort of used to go
in there for a bit and then mom mum and
dad was sort of having a bit of a yarn
and we'd sort of come out, maybe go to the car,
or sometimes there was a basketball called at the front.
We'd sort of have a little shoot around and wait
for them to come back out. But you know, they
went too bad, you know, we sort of there's a
bit of a process obviously to go in there, and

(26:40):
it's a pretty scary process with your to line up
and there's a sniffer dog that goes past, and obviously
you're well aware of how it happens in the process there,
but as a young kid, just standing still and making
sure that you know, you don't want to sort of
don't touch your dogs. It is, you know, and as
a young kid, every time you see a dog, you
just want to pad a dog and then all of
a sudden, don't touch it. Your hands right by side

(27:02):
your body was really really daunting, a really really hard
experience to go through, but we just wanted to see Dad,
so you know, in those dark, gloomy rooms, the dull rooms,
and Dad would bring out some you know, some glollies
or biscuits or coke or drinks and whatever else, but
whatever they could and we'd have a bit of a yarn,
a bit of a cuddle, and you know, that was
about it. So those those experiences, you know, weren't too bad,

(27:24):
a bit daunting, but I must admit there was one
time we had a non contact visit and that was
that was traumatic.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
That was really really difficult.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
So obviously the dog would have sat on one of us,
and so non contact visit was the was the consequence
of that. And yes, for us to be able to
get crammed into a small room mum, my younger brother,
two sisters and myself into a small non contact room
and then Dad on the other side, it was, yeah,
it was. It was really hard and it was heartbreaking

(27:56):
the sea and obviously we couldn't be you know, in
that visit for too long. It was a bit too
hard on all of us and it was really hard
to be able to understand the situation was in and
to comprehend that, and you know, all you want to
do is have that contact with that as well, you
know that, and have a cuddle on. We couldn't do it.
So that's something that really stuck with me and was
really hard for you, for myself and that family at

(28:18):
that time.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Did you ever, in your wild as dreams comprehend that
you would one day be behind the bars?

Speaker 2 (28:25):
No, No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
It's not something like I speak to some people who
have gone down the path and it's almost like, well,
that's part of growing up. They expect it. But that
wasn't that your path. A mistake has happened and you've
found yourself in prison.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, you know as a as a young fellow, and
you know Dad, seeing Dad in prison as well. You
had a lot of family members as well, so that
was there sort of the norm there. But there's certainly
something that I didn't think I'll get into trouble again
or be or seeing family and seeing dad, it was
something I wanted to steer away from and not be
involved in that. Yeah, so certainly something I never ever

(29:01):
thought I was going to be be a part of
it that in the justice space. But yeah, unfortunately I
did find myself in that situation.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
So what happened? It was two thousand and six, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Two thousand and six. And so obviously we've Barbara and
I've got two daughters by at this stage, how old
are you? How old? I was twenty six, So my
oldest she would have been nine, nine or ten, and
then the youngest would have been nine, yeah, eight. So

(29:32):
same as when we were young, follows come over and
had our annual trip Christmas trips, come over and spendmouth family.
I remember going out that night and I had a
run in with someone who was known to me that
I'd previously had a few run ins with this particular
person and family members. So sometimes over there with First

(29:52):
Nations families, yet get involved in some stuff in a
bit of family feudy, and they tend to drag on
like it's it's generational. It's you know, looking back, and
all of a sudden, sometimes you don't even know what
you're what you're finding fighting for an argument for, and
that's why it's always bad and it just happens. And
you know, I was involved. I was involved in that.
So basically, Gary, I was involved in a physical altercation

(30:14):
with another person where I've assaulted them, so got involved
in a in a disagreement where obviously things got out
of hand, and you know, looking back at that, at
that time, you didn't think that, you know, you really
did the wrong thing, but you know, it just happened
how it happened. It just happened. But then looking back
on it now, you know it was obviously the you know,
take full account of bit of ability for my actions

(30:36):
and what I did, and you know it was absolutely
wrong what I did. But at the time, you know,
it didn't seem that. It just felt like you were
having a blue and you know, it was just a
blur and things happened so quickly. But then afterwards, you know,
after the incident, that's happened, and you know, I remember
sort of looking down at myself and the clothes were
ripped and a bit of stuff around, and you know,

(30:56):
there was a lot of people sort of congregated around,
and then you're sort of realizing sort of what's happened
and trying to fathom and put everything together.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
So it was a sort of a late night nightclub.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh yeah, it was. It intoxicated, man, it's just okay.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
So it was just a continuation of the few. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, so like we sort of caught up and sort
of said we're going to have a one on one
and it's sort of, yeah, it's things got out of hand,
my brother got involved. Yeah, so something I look back
and not proud of Gary, not proud of it all.
You know, you talk about the impacts that it has
on others as well, but you know, going through the
justice space and me seeing that firsthand through through my

(31:35):
dad and sort of what impacted it had on me,
but then understanding the victim as you said, victims are
involved and the impact that has on them and their
loved ones as well. So you know, to be able
to understand, you know, through my own actions and something
I chose to do had a really negative impact on
a lot of people in community.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
But the fact that you can accept that and acknowledge that,
I think is a starting point. Like if you went through,
if you got the way of that and it was
my fault he started that, you haven't learned the thing.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
No, that's right, And you know, obviously violence is not
the way to be able to go and resolve issues
or dramas that you're having, you know, certainly not the
way to be able to go about things. But you know,
it took a little bit to be able to get
to that point with accountability and understand exactly how it
happened and why it happened. And there was some courses
of course that I had to do due to my

(32:23):
offending to be able to break it right down and
understand the different.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
Time to do that, those courses through prison.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, yeah, well I had to do it as well
for part of my prole But then, you know, I
want to be able to make sure I didn't do
this again. You know, as I said before, I didn't
see myself being in prison, but I did and through
my own action. So I've got to be able to
try to fix this and be able to put things
in place where I don't make the same mistake again.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Let's talk about it so people can appreciate the impact
when something like this happens. I think anyone growing up,
when you've described the way you described it a young blake,
you're a professional sportsman for testosterone and yeah, a punch up,
you're not thinking much about it, but the consequences of
devastating When this this occurred, did you get police police

(33:09):
come and speak to you, did you realize that it
was going to be charged. What happened the next day.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
The next day, I started getting reports that this guy
had passed away, and you know, so my heart absolutely
sunk and dropped, and thinking how, you know, like fire ount,
did I take someone's life or you know what, what
how can I get How could I've gotten to this?
Why did I do what I did? And yeah, thankfully
that wasn't the case. And then obviously the football club

(33:34):
rang me, and there was you know, got some whispers
over from over and w from the new profile. So
and then obviously going through the news and then obviously
family and everyone else hearing about it. So and then
having to go and get get get charged and going
through an investigation and your fingerprints and all that kind
of stuff. So that was really really scary as well.

(33:55):
And it was just an absolute blur of if I
remember feeling numb the whole time, and then I go
to court and saying that I had to be escorted.
There are a lot of family members of his and
obviously rightfully so really upset with what had happened and
wanted retribution and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
He survived, He came through. Your brother was also charged
with it. Yes, it was the same incident, so it
was this full on family dispute.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah. The charge was intent to cause grievous bodily harm, right,
and that that was the reasoning behind my charge.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Okay, you've gone through court, the media, You've got the
profile as a footballer, and that that's part of the pressure.
I've been a profile, having the profile that it would
have been reported heavily in the media.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah. Absolutely, And even thinking before I went away at
the end of the preseason training before our Christmas break,
the coach saying, making sure everyone's done a lot of
work here to be able to get ourselves a really
good nick. Go and enjoy your break into a time
with their family. Don't do nothing and stuff, don't stuff
anything up. And I remember just thinking they're listening. Heah,

(34:59):
you know, I can't wait to get back with family.
And then all of a sudden everything goes out the
window and you're coming back to pre season. You've embarrassed you,
you let you let yourself down, you let your family down,
you've let your teammates down, You've let a whole lot
of people down. And then for sure, so much shame
and then walking back through the club and everyone knows

(35:19):
what's happened, and you know, then, how are you viewed
now by people? What are they looking at you? What
are they saying?

Speaker 1 (35:25):
Don't you worried your aboriginality plays a part in that too?
Or you're worried you're thinking, look, this is a kid
that's gone off the track. Does that play into it?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Oh? Not necessarily. That's one thing I can talk about,
no doubt. We'll touch on time. At Richmond there was
no racism whatsoever, right, So I didn't feel that was
a part of it. It was just like, man, he's let
us down. You know, how could you get himself in that?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
S let your teammates down, the football club, your family,
hold on people, basically everyone that you love and close to.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
You feel like you've let down one hundred percent. Not
it felt like I felt like I did. I did
let them down. I let everyone down. So everyone who
had my back supported me, love and respected me. I
felt like I just through do it in their face.
It's a really hard pill to swallow too, because I'm
a loyal friend, and you know you love hard and
you know people who support you, you support them back as well.

(36:23):
So for me to be able to understand through remote
actions what I did and the impact that I had
on a lot of people. It was It's a tough one.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
How hard were you on yourself? What was what was
going through your mind with this? What were you thinking
about yourself?

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I've just ruined I've ruined my family, Like I'm going
to not be able to play football anymore. I'm going
to be able to take that income away from us
and you know, to be able to support my family.
I've literally ripped that away from them. So that figuring
out how and what am I going to do to
be able to try to get this back and to
be able to support them and to be able to

(36:58):
make sure they're okay. And still I was still on
the AFL list and still allowed to play football, but
in the back of my mind, I had this court
case hanging over my head, so would focus on doing
what I needed to do and obviously, and then the
writing was on the wall and eventually got delisted by
Richmond at the end of two thousand and seven.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Yeah, okay, and then you went through the court matter
you were convicted of it.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah. Yeah. So there's one district's football club. They were
the only I didn't really have. I were talking about
setting ourselves up post football and that transition. I didn't
utilize my time as I spoke about as well as
I should have. Really didn't have too many skills besides football,
and no one really wanted to go and near me
because I had this court case hanging over my head.
This one Districts footy club was the only club that

(37:42):
really showed some interest and wanted to try to support me.
I remember catching up with the CEO and some other
people of the football club and them speaking about how
they wanted me involved, but I was I was just
blank thinking, what do you want to waste your time
because I'll probably be going to jail. So I remember
saying that articles and See at the time said well

(38:03):
we'll cross that bridge room and get there, So that
that sort of that was like, yeah, like these guys
want to really support men. They have my best interest
at heart, and what I feel terrible because I'm not
going to be able to do too much for him.
But I don't feel like I know I can't do
too much. I don't really want to take this opportunity
because I know I can't give a whole lot back,
but I felt like, Okay, if there's an opportunity for

(38:24):
me to be able to try to play some good
foot and support them, you know, on field and get
apart be involved in some of the First Nation's programs
which had some really good ones at that stage in
the football club and involved there and some mentoring programs.
I'd do the best that I could to be able
to support that. But I only played I think six
or seven games. Went to trial two thousand and eight

(38:45):
in June, and then as you mentioned, dere got found
guilty and sentenced to thirty two months with a minimum
parole period of sixteen months.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Okay, it took us through that was the joint trial.
Was your brother and you tried together. Yeah, so both
convicted yep, and.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Then straight to custody, my brother who had sixteen on
with a minimum parole period of eight months. Yeah months. Yeah.
So yeah, it's going through the trial, you know, you're
still thinking about how you've let people down, but then
also hearing about the incident and how it happened from
someone else's perspective and hearing what you did and how

(39:24):
you did it, and it's.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
As a wake up.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
It is a wake up corner. I was disgusting in myself.
You know, it's like that. I you know, people sometimes think, oh,
you're a bad person. I don't think I'm a bad person.
I thought I made a mistake and I did the
wrong thing. I chose to do the wrong thing. So
and then you're thinking of he am I that bad
a person?

Speaker 1 (39:43):
I think that's a good thing to hang on to, Andrew,
because if we all make mistakes, and if you make
a mistake and think you're a bad person, you've virtually
become a self fulfilling prophecy. You keep telling yourself you're
a bad person, you follow that path, the fact that
you're smart enough to I'm a good person. I've done
a bad thing. That's a that's a good way of
looking at it.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, thanks, and I appreciate that. And that's and after
hearing everything in court, for you for me to be
able to think, yeah, that is terrible, but that's not me.
I know I did the wrong thing, but that's had
this picture their painting of me. That's not entirely that's
I know, that's not me as a person. Yes, I'm accountable,
Yes I did the wrong thing. Yes I need to
be accountable for my actions and what comes from this

(40:24):
comes from it. I've got to deal with it, because
that's that's the accountability I need to take. So looking
over at family members who come and supported me through
the whole trial the last day, you know, it's Mum, Dad,
antis looking over and seeing them and seeing the tears
flow from their eyes sort of, I'll get a bit
emotional talking about it. And it was just so hard

(40:46):
to watch. And you know they remember the officers told
me to come over and you could give them a
hug or just you know, I shake the hands and
I did it for like two seconds, and I felt,
you know, I just felt so bad with what I've
done and how I let everyone down and I had
to get away. I'll just you know, I'll speak to
you whenever again.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
That guilt and shape it was.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
And then not only that, my baby brother's in trouble
because of me as well, Like that's another you carry,
it's another layer as well as well. My brother's in
jail because of me, you know. So that's a hard
you know, that's a tough one to be able to
take as well. And you know we've already touched on it,
but to the negative impact that your actions have, you know,
but then still to understand, well, you know, I didn't

(41:29):
figure out obviously, there wasn't me thinking Okay, how am
I going to get out of this? Is just trying
to process, Okay, this is where I am right now,
how do I how do I go about things? Obviously
we've got taken down to the cells and it was
on the news straight away, so as soon as we
went down there within probably half an hour, so looking
up at the TV screen and they're guilty and you

(41:50):
know you've been sentenced, and the jail, the ride to
be able to go to prison from the courthouse, it
was just a dark, dark van and blokes were just
yearning like it was nothing. You don't go into prison.
And I just couldn't believe the situation that I was in.
I didn't speak a word. I was just looking at
the ground. You could hardly breathe. It was hot in
the back of the van. And then all of a

(42:11):
sudden sudden we get to hat here and we get
processed to go through. So it's just a whole sense
of feeling numb. Obviously my brother was beside me, but
you know, and all these other emotions going through me.
It's a shame, the guilt, you know, the people that
you've let down, and then all of a sudden, well
this is going to be home for a bit now.

(42:33):
So getting processed, you know, the other prisoners and other
people getting processed as well, looking at you, trying to
test you out. And obviously people knew me because I
played footy as well.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
So that's the thing. You come in there with a
bit of a target because your high profile and JERL
can be a scary place and you go in there
in that environment, you wouldn't know what was going to happen.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
To the unknown, the unknown is always scary. It's obviously
his stories and obviously knowing that Dad, you know, bench
through the same thing, and even Dad, I remember getting
some advice off him, and I look back on it
now it wasn't wasn't the greatest, but at least it
was honest. I said, I'm able to how do I
what should my mindset be help? So I think about things?

(43:16):
He said, expect the worst and hope for the best,
and that was my that was my response as well.
I had a giggle. I was like, well that doesn't
help me, but it's honest. And so my my thinking was, well,
I'm going to jail no matter what, and that that
was the case, and but then to be able to

(43:36):
actually hear it as well was it was hard again
to be able to process. So uh, getting processed your fingerprints,
you're getting given your clothes and then escorted to your cell.
Walking down those corridors were just dark, and you know,
you can all you can hear is the jingling of
the keys, and you know the footsteps of the officers boots.
You get to your prison cell and all of a

(43:57):
sudden it opens up. Get ushered in. Other takes wants
to take the bottom bunk, and it didn't have no
discussion for me, and I jumped up top. And then
you hear this. You know, you're getting the plate of
food and sausage dyer looks like it's been there for
a week, and some other food and obviously didn't have
an appetite. Then all of a sudden, another jingle of
the keys, and the huge steel door just locks, and

(44:19):
I remember putting my hand on the door and obviously
it's not moving and it's not going nowhere. This is
going to be home for the next sixteen months. Getting
up on top on the bunk bed, and you're seeing
all the etchings and people that have been in the
cell before me and graving their name in the walls,
and you know, all that kind of stuff, and then
getting up on top, and you know, the roof was

(44:40):
about a half a foot away from my face, so
you felt claustrophobic, and looking down at my clothes and
understanding the greens that I've got on and touching the
greens and this is reality. This is home for the
next sixteen months at least. Scary, really scary.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
It's an intimidating hard place. Prisons just by the nature,
but the layout of them that can be very much.
So you're looking at the heavy steel gates and it
just it's foreign. It's foreign to the way most people,
most people live. Hey, guys, sorry for the interruption. I
know that can be annoying, but I just wanted to

(45:14):
jump in here and thank you for listening to this episode. Now,
before we get back into the interview, I'm going to
talk to you about crimex Plus. If you subscribe to
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(45:36):
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(46:00):
Upon on Crime x plus on Apple Podcasts. Now, let's
get back into this interview. I noticed in an article,
and there was a lot of articles that were written
about it, and one thing you relied on the philosophy
that you learn through your football You can only control
what you can control. Someone had given you that advice
when you're playing football, and that you're equated on saying that.

(46:22):
Is that the type of attitude you took in the prison, Well,
this is my environment. I can't worry about things I
can't control.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Not initially it obviously, just you know, you probably have
that bit of blame and thinking this wouldn't happen, but
I would have done this, And there was a little
bit of that initially, and then I got to a
point it might have been I'm not quite sure, maybe
three or four weeks and you know, maybe a bit
longer than thinking well, hang on, you know, the only
person that bame here is me. I'm the one who

(46:48):
stuffed up. I'm the one who chose to do what
I did. No matter other dynamics or whatever happened, what
other people have done, They're not the reason why I'm here.
I am. And then that's our sports psychologists when I
was at Richmond to live by that only control what
you can control. So once I got to that mindset
and then thinking okay, well I can't control how long

(47:09):
I'm here for. It's at least sixteen months. Obviously there's
a few hurdles I've got to get over to be
able to try to get my parole. But that's what
I'm going to work towards. What's my day look like,
how do I go about my day? What sort of
routine and instructure I'm going to have. You know, obviously,
prison politics, you know that's well and truly happens in there.
And to be able to try to steer clear of that,

(47:30):
and you know, just to be able to do my
own thing, do my own time, and go about it
that way. So it took a little bit for me
to be able to get to that mindset and put
those things in place so I could try to do
whatever I could to be able to make my prison
sentence as smooth as possible. But you know, control what
I could control.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Control and even use it to your advantage, as in, yeah,
turn your life around. Initial impressions of the inmates and
initial impressions of corrective services officers when you first came
in there in those early days, what did you think
of the other inmates?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
You didn't know what to think, like, but something like
I knew a few people in there, but then other
blokes were just like, you don't know whether they're coming
down on drugs, and obviously you know a few blokes.
It was a bit of a scary experience as well.
You never know what other guys are thinking or you know, like,
as you said, I've got a bit of a target
on their back. Do they want to try to have
a crack so you or you say something or do something.
You never know what's going to happen? So it was
just a really you had to have you it. It's

(48:28):
about you to be able to you know, the situations
you could try to get yourself into and people around
you and you know, oh, this spoke's getting a bit close.
What's he trying to do here? Or you know anything
or the s folk's talking a bit too much or
his tones a little bit changing, you know, what's to
go on? What's happening here? Could he be related to
the person hyper alert? Absolutely? You know you're just on
edge about anything and with the prison office or from

(48:51):
growing up, you know, you probably didn't have the best
experiences and probably you know, to be able to understand
what prison offices do and how they are you just
as a young father, you just think, well, you're there
like on a founding member up, so the perception of
them probably wasn't the greatest, but yeah, you just thought that, well,
you know, I don't want to be on their bad side.

(49:12):
So you know, it's just going to be able to
understand the It's like understanding the rules of the game
and to be able to understand what you can and
can't do. You know, if you do the wrong thing,
with prison officers, you're going to make it hard for yourself.
So I just try to make sure that I did
clear of that and did what I only did what
I could do. But yeah, the impression impressions were not

(49:33):
much in prison officers, just to see clear of them,
and then you know, you know with inmates too. If
I didn't really know, I'm I wasn't going to be
trying to be overly friendly.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
We'll talk through all the experiences that you had had
in prison. But I just want to make this comment
that it was a cop for thirty years, so I
was going in the prisons on different things and speaking
to people in the in prison. But since I've left
the cops, I had an opportunity of going into maximum
security prison and correct Services in New South Wales gave

(50:01):
me the opportunity to have a look around for a
couple of weeks had free reign, and my perception of
what goes on in prisons changed the longer I spent
in there. That there's so much interaction between the inmates
and the corrective services officers or the prison officers that
they're almost all in this together, aren't they, And they

(50:22):
can have a big impact an attitude of a prison
officer can impact on the attitude of inmates and vice versa.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Yeah, absolutely, And probably through my first part of my
incarceration where I was I didn't have too much interaction,
And when I probably started to have a little bit
more interaction was when I was rated as a minimum
security prisoner and then transferred to a medium sorry minimum facility,
and then with the wreck officers and some other officers

(50:49):
is probably not as highly strung as a maximum facility
on edge. You know, you're out on a farm and
even for yourself, you're walking out in the sun, you're
getting fresh air. You know, you're not locked up in
a cell those big steel doors I spoke about when
I first went in. You're not locked up by that,
So you're probably your guards not up as it was
as much. But then the interactions that you had obviously

(51:12):
the respect that you needed to have, but then also
understanding the prison offices they've got a job to do,
but then they have that balance as well. The ones
that I sort of got to know pretty well, and
you know, true, did you like a person and you know,
had that respect as well, didn't just you're not You're
not just another number. Or prisoner in there. So that's
I suppose you know once I was hearted to have

(51:33):
those interactions a little bit more and get to know
me and being involved in some other sporting activities and
programs they had within the prison system. There, you know,
you could actually see the human side of them that
I didn't previously see.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Is that that's interesting? Isn't that you see the human side?
But I think for someone that's you, you're walked in there,
tripping over your bottom lip and feeling pretty down, the
fact that someone can show you some humanity meant a
lot to Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
That's right, and then like to make those connections we
spoke about before, you know, who's your mob, where you're from,
or I know this person. So prison office has been
there for a fair while, so no doubt had known
some family members that came through and to be able
to make that connection and then all of a sudden,
you know, they might be able to say, oh, yep,
I got in too much trouble, but boy could he
play footy or he could play cricket. And that was

(52:20):
a few of the conversations I had. So then your
guards down a little bit more. So he knows a
family member of mine, so and he's talking well about them,
so you're sort of having a bit more of a
chat with him, and you know you're not you don't
have that, I suppose the normal perception of you know,
you're an office, I'm not going to talk to you.
I'm a prisoner. Well we'll just leave it as that,
you know.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
So it's breaking down those barriers. And I look, I
would imagine from an inmate's point of view that were
a crew of them that gay. You shouldn't be speaking
to corrective services officers, and I imagine there's some old school,
you know, corrective services officers, so you shouldn't be speaking
to the inmates. There's blue and there's green, and never
the two should meet. But it's evolving.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Then.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I'm really interested, and we'll dig into it in part two.
How that impacted on you, Whether you could have gone
one way or the other, depending on your experience in prison,
because you're really you're at that point. Your life was
at the crossroads, wasn't it. You could have gone in
there and come out angry, blame everyone else other than
yourself for what put you in there, and and probably

(53:22):
just stuffed up again.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
I could have hated the world. Absolutely, it was everyone
else's fault but mine. But what I've learned through my
footy years and growing up and you know, taken accountability
that I couldn't. It just wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't
in my psyche to be able to have that. And
even if I did feel like that for a bit
of might pull your head and that's not right, you know,
get back on track, you know. So so yeah, absolutely

(53:45):
I could have. You know, obviously there's there's times as
well where you've spoken about that. Prisoners going there and
meet other prisoners and then all of a sudden they
might come out with some other knowledge that isn't great
and probably make them off a little bit worse than
they did come in. So I try to make my time.
Yes I was a prisoner, but then you know, and
even other prisoners to be able to understand. And you know,
some people see prisoners and think, oh, they're terrible people.

(54:07):
You know that, you know, you know they did this,
they did that. But then there's so many other dynamics
that are involved for people to be able to get
into a situation where they are where they have to
commit crimes and things like that, and I'm not saying
it's the right thing to do, but then I think
with myself and having a young family, to have that
care factor and to be able to understand prisoner's point
of views too. But then also corrective services or or

(54:31):
you know, prison officers, you know what they have to
do as well. So yes, they have to be hard,
they have to draw the line, don't take it personal
because that's what they do because if they do the
wrong thing, then they have to answer higher above and
then if they sometimes you know, loss of privileges could
be the consequence because of that. So it was a
little bit hard to be able to understand, but then
to to then to be able to figure out, okay,

(54:54):
you know, I could have come out the other side
the worse, worse off for you know, not with a
positive mindset. But I just know my driving force and
my my you know, for me to be able to
get better for my kids and want to be out
for my kids. So everything was around that. So everything
if even if I wasn't if I might have had
a not the greatest interaction with an officer, everything came

(55:16):
back to my kids, like I can't do this because
I might not see my kids. I might not be
able to talk to them, So I'm not going to
be able to do anything wrong that's going to get
in the way of me and not seeing my kids.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Well, that's where I think people find the inspiration from
your story in that you were at that moment where
life would have gone over way and you talk about
accountability and you've used that worth a few times, and
I think it shows that, Okay, I've accepted I've made
the mistake and I want to make a change. We'll
take a break now, Andrew, but when we get back,
we're going to talk about what actually takes place when
you're inside the prison and how you use that to

(55:47):
your advantage, and what you've done since you've you've got
out of prison.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
I was looking forward to Garrett.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Cheers.