April 20, 2025 • 43 mins
Lyall Munro’s life was trapped behind a three-foot fence. Living in prison-like conditions, Lyall was living by the strict rules enforced on him and his community at the mission. Young children were taken away, they lived off fortnightly rations and were isolated from white Australians. When Charlie Perkins and the Freedom Bus Ride came through town in 1965, Lyall Munro’s whole life changed.
Read the book, Dying Rose, here or listen to the podcast here.
Can’t get enough of I Catch Killers? Stay up to date on all the latest crime news at The Daily Telegraph.
Get episodes of I Catch Killers a week early and ad-free, as well as bonus content, by subscribing to Crime X+ today.
Like the show? Get more at icatchkillers.com.au
Advertising enquiries: newspodcastssold@news.com.au
Questions for Gary: icatchkillers@news.com.au
Get in touch with the show by joining our Facebook group, and visiting us on Instagram or Tiktok.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
(00:47):
we're sharing a story that can't be forgotten. In Part one,
I spoke to investigative journalists Douglas Smith and Emily Oli
about how the authorities responded to the deaths of Aboriginal women,
about how Indigenous people in Australia get treated differently, including
in homicide investigations. Now, I want to take this story
(01:08):
back to nineteen sixty five. That year, the Freedom Bus
Ride was led by a young group of activists demanding
Australia pay attention to the racism facing Aboriginal people.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It was a ride which didn't so much break the
shackles as it did open the eyes of Australia when
it came to Aboriginal people. Racism and segregation was very
much alive in country New South Wales. Nates wouldn't be
allowed to work in the shops because they're not tiredy enough.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
There's a lot of them here, that's Scott good jobs
in the cafes, and then they just won hold them.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
In nineteen sixty five, the great Charlie Perkins tries to
bring these issues into the light.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
A lot of US Pradidans talk about, oh, yes, we
want to give the abergine affair go. Then it's full
stop and it's usually forgotten. They never go on to say, look,
we've proposed we give such and such a scholarship to
a number of abergees. Let us support average and organization,
Let us vote in favor of any legislation which allows
for the elevation of the Abiginal people. They don't do
these things. They talk about it, but never do it.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Many Australians didn't think there was discrimination in their country
in the early sixties. The Freedom Ride was an attempt
to show Australians what was really happening in their own
backyards every day. Not only was their segregation, the state
government was deliberately evicting Aboriginal people from their missions and
stepping up it's assimilation policies.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
They think that the white man's eyes and what they are.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
What you just heard was media coverage of the nineteen
sixty five Freedom Bus Ride. Today, I had a conversation
with Aboriginal elder and activist Lyle Monroe. Lyle was a
young Aboriginal boy in Maury when the bus came through town. Lole,
tell me about your memories of that day.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Well, it was as clear in my mind as as
ever ever was. It was like it was yesterday. Is
real history. It's something that happened. There's something that affected
our lives at the time. It still still affects our lives.
At the time. We were against still segregated on the
(03:07):
Mission or the Aboriginal Reserve actually known as the Mission
under the notorious Aboriginal Welfare Act, which was amendment to
the previous Act of the Aboriginal Protection Act, which kind
of kept our parents and our grandparents locked up on
these out of sight areas, out of town, out of sight.
The respective policies at the time, I think under the
(03:29):
Aboriginal Protection Act it was a policy of we were
expected to die out, and then the introduction of the
assimilation program where it was advisable for Aboriginal people to
move into town and to live somewhat of their lives
in the white community. It was a very serious time
for Aboriginal people because we've still not yet been recognized
(03:52):
as citizens of the country until the referendum in nineteen
sixty seven, which is two years away, and Aboriginal people
were subject out of town, out of site, on places
we referred to as concentration camps. Each manager, each mission
at a manager. We had two managers because the the
size of our mission and the population. We had a
(04:13):
manager and assistant manager. They had the right to control
the lives of Aboriginal people under this particular act, the
Aboriginal wealtha Act. But in more we'd like to think
we were double wheremy because of the council there during
these bad days introduced a local by law to the
Local Council Act, which restricted the presence of Aboriginal people
(04:36):
right throughout the town. It had particular restrictions on places
like the town hall. We had all these kind of
experiences going on that we tried to come to groups with,
but this act said at all. This act was an
actual fact. If you looked at the history of this act,
you'll see that it was a template for becoming apartheid
(04:58):
system that operated in Queensland and they moved to South Africa.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
I think in the mid sixties.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
The restrictions from the town hall was based on the
fact that we were deemed filthy. The particular restrictions referred
to the dining room section of the town hall, all
areas in town that served food. In fact, all areas
of the town took advantage of this peace of legislation
because it openly gave the town the right to openly
(05:24):
discriminate against Aboriginal people. And that process continued until Charlie
and the Freedom arrived in nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
There's a lot to unpack with what you just talked about,
and I don't think people really appreciate it. But what
we're talking about is in your lifetime, and you refer
to the mission or the reservation where your movements were restricted.
Just explain that to people, because I don't think people
really understand. And you mentioned the part and we all
(05:55):
know what happened over in South Africa with that, but
we had it here in this country in your lifetime,
and I don't think people really appreciate it. So we'll
just deviate a little bit from Charlie coming in with
the bus. Just what life was like for you growing
up in the town like that, where you excluded from
(06:16):
locations for no other reason other than the fact that
you're Aboriginal.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
Well, we weren't completely excluded. It became a bit of
an embarrassment when we got to high school because we
had the mission school that went to sixth class. It
had a third class accepted level of education. But fortunately
enough our teachers reached the frontier with that and continue
(06:43):
to treat our school like the normal schools when we
got to high school. Of course, most of us were
good swimmers. We had some experiences there, like myself with
about six of us. One day, two young people who
were camping down from the mission the baby felling the river,
and we ran down there and dived and pulled the
(07:04):
baby out.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Unfortunately it was too.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Late, so we've had those experiences. Some of us were
reaching into the high school swimming team, so every Wednesday
afternoon a sport. I mean most of us was encouraged
openly to take cricket and vigoro as a sport to
avoid the embarrassment with the restrictions from the pool. Were
(07:27):
restricted from the ovalves too, but at the time that
was kind of come and go kind of thing. You know,
we could go a be able to play Saturday morning football,
but after that we'd have to vacate the area in
the town.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
You talk it, you lived it. It's hard for me
to even comprehend it. So yeah, you play football and
then okay, well you're not welcome back to hang around.
You've served your purpose, you've played football, and then go
back to the mission. All the reservation. Is that what
we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Well, it's spelled out loud and clear with the return soldiers,
I mean most of our soldiers, because they weren't citizens
of the country until sixty seven. The only way we
could enlist and most all of our all of our
soldiers were volunteers. And we see in the case there
where all our soldiers returned basically directly sent back to
(08:18):
the missions and no recognition of their role that they
played in the You know, all the wars. Our men
volunteered with all the wars, but our people were we
weren't allowed. I mean, these same soldiers weren't allowed to
drink in the RSSL clubs.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
At the time.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
There was no soldiers settlements supported to our soldiers. There
was no pensions supported to our soldiers. In actual fact,
the soldiers, the Aboriginal soldiers from Queensland, we paid no
money to be involved in the in these these international issues.
That was the indicator that we weren't wanted. Living on
(08:56):
the mission some three k's out of towns are out
of town, out of sight. We were segregated by a
three foot fence with a barbed wire structure on the
top of it. Now, I don't know whether people can understand,
but when you can actually high jump that fence and
when you watch animals come and go freely and starts
(09:19):
putting crazy thoughts into your head.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Even though we were young people.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
I mean I had some personal experiences where I'd go
up to the gate the entrance to the mission and
sit on the gate and the middle of the night
and just wonder what's the problem, what's out there, what's
on the other side of this. So at times I'd
kind of sneak down the gate and stand on the
other side of the gate, and I used to seek
(09:47):
the misself, well, what's the difference. However, that was the
fence that restricted our presence on the mission. When we
got to high school, some of us entertained the idea
in trying up with the swinging team. So on Wednesday afternoon,
(10:08):
for instance, we'd arrived at the pool. In general sport,
Aboriginal kids would be signaled out. We'd have to wash
and scrub and the showers before we went to the pool.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
We had to have the.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Trunks that the pool supplied. We couldn't wear ron swing trunks.
And then we were allowed to dabble around in one
corner of the pool. This was with the duration of
the afternoon, and when that three o'clock bell rang, then
it had come on the llowd to speaker all Aboragemal
(10:49):
children remove themselves from the pool. That happened on a
regular basis, on a weekly basis. However, we persevered with
that because at least we were in the pool. At
least we were in the corner of the pool, and
they stood there, the teachers, and kind of made sure
we stayed in that particular corner we lived. Under that legislation,
(11:14):
we could go into town. We'd had our own bus,
the bus to pick us up, drop us into town
for movies, and then back on the bus back to
the mission. The same with shopping.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You mentioned the mission manager or the manager on the mission.
Who did that and what was the role of a
manager like restricting your movements and overseen.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Well, under the Aboriginal Welfare Act, the local serge and
the police station was actually the pursue administer minister the act.
Managers and their wives were hired to control the lives
of Aboriginal people on the mission. So to gain access
to the mission, you first of all had to pull
(11:59):
up and report to the man. To leave the mission,
you had to report to the manager. But the manager
and their wives. The only medication we were ministered by the
manager's wife was stuff like pecure crameman and the ointment
or whatever, skin rations and stuff like that. But this
segregation also applied to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Next.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Fact, the hospital segregation was the thing before Charlie Ham
arrived in sixty five McMaster ward. It was the segregated
section of the Maury Hospital where we were all born,
and that we believe was the initiative for the introduction
(12:42):
of that particular by law. We had also had an
assistant manager and they were residents on the mission. The
head master's premises home was a resident of the mission.
So we had our own mission school for all the
wrong reasons. I don't know why we're not allowed Aboriginal
schools now for all the right reasons, but that was
a system. It was hard trying to comprehend it. I
(13:05):
suppose when when we became of age, but the scars experience.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
And.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
I mean for one white man and his wife to
have complete controlled the lives of some six hundred people,
and this was the law. It wasn't an accepted practice.
The racism around New South Wells at the time it
was an accepted practice. But in Maori it was a
legislative practice. They actually created the local by law. And
(13:35):
I was surprising that after all that, the confrontations, and
that when Charlie and them eventually left, when we convinced
the mayor to rescind them the bye law, they then
reintroduced the by law. So Charlie them had to come
back and demonstrate and do what they had to do
then to have the bylow point finally scrapped forever.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Let's talk about the the Freedom Bus Ride and Charlie
Perkins and I think there was twenty nine students from
Sydney University and they traveled in rural New South Wales
visiting towns that they believed there was discrimination and racism
in the town and they went to, off the top
(14:20):
of my head, Walgot, Maury and different places around the
north and northwestern regions of the state. But the Freedom
bus Ride people, yeah, we hear about it in America.
I think most Australians would be more aware of what
went on in the Southern States of America with the
Freedom bus Ride. But this was very significant and changed
(14:44):
the way people look at the situation and identify it.
Can you talk about the bus ride and what it
actually achieved, where they went and what the purpose of
the bus ride was.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Well, the only village we out of the bus ride
the Freedom Ride was from the odd home that had
a television and the ABC was talking about this bus
that was traveling through New South Wales towns and they
were in Wolgot at the time, and we saw the
demonstrations the outside the Ursel Club.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
And the swimming pool.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
On the way between Moore and Wolgot, the bus was
run off the road by white hooligans that basically chased
them out of town. The bus was run off the road.
It ended up in the in the gutter on the
side of the road. Some describe it has almost been
fatal some of the students. There was quite a serious situation,
(15:42):
but there was also a couple of carlos of young
Murray men that also followed the bus to make sure
that they were safe.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
They arrived in Maury.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
I think it's just so hard to understand that the
reasoning and.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Why the bus got there.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
But we were home on the mission and I think
it was about maybe four o'clock in the afternoon. We
were just leaving the mission swimming pool. This bus appeared
at the gate and it wasn't a tourist bus. Because
we were quite used to tourist buses. They'd give us,
you know, check out sixpences and lollies and that type
(16:19):
of stuff for us. This bus had an aura around
about it in anticipation. We were kind of amazed that
this time of the afternoon that a bus was coming
onto the mission that we didn't recognize. We recognized the
skool bus, the town bus, you know, the tourist buses,
that type of thing, but this bus kind of had
(16:40):
this strange aura around it about it. So we watched
this bus travel slowly around the able coming to the
manager's residence. They never pulled up at the manager's residence. Hello,
what's going on here? Because everyone had to pull up
with the manager's residents. And this bus pulled up and
(17:05):
the doors opened, and there was this handsome black man
okay to the front of the bus and just simply said,
we'd just like to come in have a swim in
the town bars. So eleven of us, of course jumped
on the bus, not knowing what was going to happen.
Of course, drove to the swimming pool. Charlie and the
(17:28):
students started to negotiate, you know, our entry that wasn't
acceptable because of the Bye law. They basically lived by
this by law. Everything their excuses for their racism was
all tied up in this by law. But keep in
mind it was also a new kind of learning for
us too, I mean, being segregated and then being segregated
(17:51):
from everywhere else and I mean your thoughts were segregated, whole,
your whole being was segregated. I suppose it never had
the effect and I said it had on our parents
and our grandparents because with their generations it was an
accepted practice. This is how it is, you know, this
(18:11):
is how we are.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Nothing is going to change.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
We're subjected to this with it. No one's going to
question it because of the authority at the time they
were taking the kids away all this type of stuff.
The policies were their integration you know, to smooth dying
pillow quote unquote, then the assimilation program, which was entirely
different based on you know, they need to assimilate and
(18:35):
to be like other Australians. But what intrigued me was
being boarding school and coming home with me uniform on
and the bus had dropped me at the mission gate.
I'd get off the train, get a bus, a school
(18:55):
bus had dropped off the mission gate.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Then I have to report to the manager. I'm home.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
And when I was leaving it, I have to report
to the manager to go back to Delasell.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, your parents and manager.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
Yeah yeah, So and the managers had their rule was strict.
We had some managers that were quite acceptable. There were
other managers that were tyrants and completely controlled the situation.
They had the right to walk into a home and
(19:27):
inspected at any given time. They had the right to
do whatever they wanted to do with your home. They
could move you from your home. Those who accepted the
dog tags we call them, like the freedom papers that
were given to particular Aboriginal people. That sort of stuff
was in the process. Rugby league was starting in our communities,
(19:50):
which was basically the way out for a lot of
us young people, because our day was like while whilst
the parents were shopping, we were playing set him on
competition and with that we're allowed to go to the
day's matinee after the after the football, and but it
was always back to the mission. There was always that
(20:12):
bus or that car going back to the mission. There
was always that gate closing behind us, and there was
always that three three foot fans.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
To contend with.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
The way you're describing that, it's not this similar to
being in the prison. Yeah, someone that can come into
your home at any time without reason, move you at
any time without reason, allow you in or out under
their control, it's.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
Yeah, and the only food source available to us was
there was a Lebanese family there called the Lurhoods, who
I would think that a lot of our people would
have been in serious trouble if it wasn't for that family.
They breached the restrictions and made sure that you know
(20:57):
that they came down to the mission again against the
manager's wishes, or they'd park outside the fence against the
manager's wishes, and they bought the necessary food like bread
and butter.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
And yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Mentioned that the other day. And it's ironic, isn't it
that well leving those immigrants are the ones that the
tree did you.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
Yeah, as humans, and we're still very much associated with
the Lohold family, same as we are with the Perkins family,
the two families that played a big role in a
big part of our history.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
In the town.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
And that's how that's basically how we lived until Charlie
and the Freedom Right arrive undred and sixty five.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
We've got this going on in our country. Do you
think people are aware of the history of or understanding.
Speaker 5 (21:46):
Well, Sadly enough, the majority of Aboriginal people are not
aware of this.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Part of our history.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
So this history has been kind of shoved in the
corner and the two hard basket, and where's those who
witnessed those that was witnessed it. And there's still hundreds
of us alive from that system, and we still bear
the scars. A lot of our young people, particularly in
our town. A lot of the young people are now
starting to come to grips with the fact that it happened.
(22:16):
And of course it's a lot of mus spellbound that
this kind of thing actually happened to their parents who
were still here. And so keep in mind at the time,
Maury was also divided up the community out of the
black community, like we had a place called the Mission,
(22:36):
the Middle Camp, the Top Camp, and the common Now
the Top Top Camp were Aboriginal people that came in
from Terry, Io when they closed the mission there and
then I think nineteen twenty three nineteen twenty four, some
of them went to Boggabill and Mung and Dai and
all around the place, but most settled in Mare. And
the Top Camp was on the riverbank with all their
(22:59):
huts and the type of stuff with dirt flaws in
that they had an invisible fence around them. Because no
matter whether we were all Aboriginal people were subjected to
the Aboriginal Welfare Act. That was the controlling factor and
that stayed with ustil nineteen sixty seven. And like I
(23:20):
said before, that did night our whole existence. So up
until nineteen sixty seven, no Aboriginal people in this country
theoretically never existed.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You're considered a citizen now, Your parents or the people
before you went through life not being considered a citizen
and managed under the Flora and Fauna.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Well, whether or not that actually was the case of
whether it was just a myth that covered the situation
at the time, but we certainly weren't counted in the census,
the statistics, and I think it was more or less
an accepted fact that we were then treated and counted
(24:01):
the most of raw and foreigner.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
So people talk about the nineteen sixty seven referendum, what
exactly did it mean?
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Yeah, basically, you gave the federal government the right to
enact laws will be up of Aboriginal people. The confusing
part was that we were led to believe that was
the first time that Aboriginal people were allowed to vote,
and that was the myth that company that that narrative
all the way through until we'd realized ourselves.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Looking at the bus ride the other towns, and it
got a lot of media coverage at the time, and
it was significant, and yeah that's scary. Yeah, well scary
in a lot of ways. That it was challenging, the
challenging the norms, and as you know, I think you
spent your lifetime fighting the systems on different things. And
(24:52):
we'll talk about the impact that it's had on the
direction of your life later. But do you think that
was an awakening looking at it now sixty years ago,
the Freedom Bus ride, and it was a significant part
in the history of this country.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
I don't think it was an awakening as such. I
think it was a realization and understanding that these things
were going on. That we were aware of it, but
we didn't kind of comprehend it. I mean, the learning
process with us, other than the normal education process, was
(25:26):
the way we lived the things that were happening. You know,
the Mission bus came, took people to town. We go across
the bed area every morning with our little billy cans
to get the milk. That was our access to milk.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I understand what you're saying there, Love, because as a kid,
what's what goes on is what happens. You don't question it. Yeah,
well you're accepting it. You might understand it, but okay,
this is just the way the world is.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
Well, it was pretty kind of daring to like we'd
have our little billy cans every morning, about twenty of us,
and we'd all travel. But it became pretty dicey and
wet weather because you had to dig your toes into
the bank and won't be tired if you spilt that milk.
We had a system if someone spilt their milk, then
(26:18):
we'd all kind of top it up a little bit,
you know, to get it all level again.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
But no.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Spilling the milk was it was in the ship cardinals in.
Speaker 5 (26:30):
Yeah, you were going to cop it or someone was
going to cop it, but but that was a normal
system to us. It was though we didn't it was
any different to what was going on in the town
and around us. But the Freedom Right also awaken some
of the young white people too, because what was going
on Saturday Morning Camp in particular, was race relation. I mean,
(26:54):
is the town kind of come to grips with this
important issue, and our young people were basically breaching all
these frontiers Saturday morning football. I mean, we've still got
friends from way back then. I mean, why didn't someone
ask us about how to deal with this race relations
(27:15):
question in Mauri? Maybe some of us kids would have
had some answers, even trying to explain to our own
children about what happened, and then watching the impact and
when our young people start realizing, like how do you survive?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
How to you know? But we did.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
We've always survived for some reason or other. I mean,
it was hard. It was always straight back to the mission.
It was always from the mission to there or straight
back to the mission. But we survived somehow we've survived.
But the impact of the Freedom Ride has still not
been realized, simply because it's not a part of for instance,
(28:03):
education curriculum and that part of the that that part
of the country, no one talks about it. It's like
if it's taboo, and Aboriginal people were taboo, but now
the narrative their stories taboo because it reconnects us with
the way we were simply the only the only thing
(28:26):
we've had these discussions with the white people.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
That we grew up with.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
It wasn't something to be looked at and to be
examined for all the wrongdoings.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
It was something that just happened.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
We we you know, our lives were controlled, so it
must have been good for if these decisions were made
for us, they must have been decent decisions or whatever.
But there was a lot of bad decisions. I mean,
we weren't allowed information. Like when they took our brothers
and sisters into the end of the stolen generation system,
(29:04):
we just realized they were gone. No one officially told us.
So a lot of information was kept from us too
by our parents because of what it was and the
effects that it would have had on us. So at times,
our parents were shielding us all the time from these
(29:25):
phenomenons that were affecting our lives that we weren't aware of.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Ye And you can understand that as a parent, that's
something that you would do. But the fact that the
significance of the Freedom bus ride, you're saying that it's
not something that people widely know or the details of it.
It's something that we all should know, shouldn't we Well.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
It should be part of the educational cricket on It's
a history that I mean, you know, we're flooded with
the white history. There's nothing about us other than our existence.
Sometimes it's hard to sit down and explain to your grandchildren.
But again a lot of this, a lot of that
information was kept.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Promise, do you think do you think what happened with
the bus ride and you saw the results from it
or the interest, does that shape your life? Because you
know you're described as an activist and you've been at
the foreth front of a lot of change on indigenous
aspects and the way things are handled. Do you think
(30:25):
that gave you a taste or shaped you in the door?
Speaker 5 (30:28):
It certainly gave us an insight into the results of
the direct action at the time, the Aboriginal Advancement groups
suggest forming and in more e the Aboriginal Advancement Committee
was in actual fact the more emissions Skilled PNC association.
So that involved into the pritical to fathom at all,
(30:50):
as they're probably the bravest people I've ever encountered in
my life up until later on in life, but just
to understand that a group of young white people, thirty
of them in fact students with this young black radical
I mean their lives could have been cut short directly
(31:13):
coming out of Sydney let alone going through places like
Dubbo and Canable and Gila Gumbo and Walgut and then
eventually coming to Maury. It took a lot of guts,
It took a lot of intestinal fortitude. I mean, this
area is still controlled by the Country Party, the National
Party Blue Ribbon seatry throughout northern New South Wales well
(31:36):
seventy four years of my life. So a lot of
the racism, it was part of the system. White people
could do whatever they wanted with us. There was no
police thet to predict because there was no law there
to protect us. So we had to be very careful
and at the same time being aware of it. When
(31:57):
we started being aware of it and being careful with it,
to realize our parents, in all the difficult as they
were facing, were still shielding us, you know, from this
bad stuff. And it wasn't a matter of our parents
teaching it, teaching us this stuff. It was a matter
of us evolving and finding out ourselves and it just
(32:21):
became a part of our education that But at the
same time you tin to come to grips with yet
it's still happening to us, like why doesn't anyone say
something about it? Why doesn't someone do something about it,
and it's never happened. We had the same situation now
I talk about the cancelated deaths in Maury. No one
(32:43):
seems to be interested. I mean, at the moment we're
doing our history and eulogies in Maury, but it's another
phenomena that's affecting our groups and our families and our nations.
Were seem to be always shoved in the hard, hard
basket part of the eyes, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
And so it's a shame that we're sitting here talking
about something that happened sixty years ago, and now sixty
years later we're talking and there's still issues that have
concerned for you.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
I shed a few tears there the other night. I
mean that town turned out against us. There was only us,
eleven kids and the students. There was no Aboriginal growing
ups or anyone. And to walk the gauntlet, you know,
about twenty yards from the pool door to the footpath,
(33:39):
and to see Charlie beIN drug drug out that night,
and you know, the whole town and the local hotel
across the roads is empty, and these people came from
everywhere and there was just us and the students. Thirty
what forty one of us, and they they they chuck
(34:00):
to everything they could at us, bottles, rotten eggs, anything
they could lay their hands on. I was trying to
traumatizing experience. The eldest in the bus, right, I think,
was the sister soone's owner. She was fifteen, our group
(34:20):
was thirteen and the mean brother, and then we're twelve
and eleven, so we were basically kids. And to witness
that it still gives me creeps when I think about it,
but it was it was quite a terrifying experience.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Would imagine that. I would imagine that was extremely terrifying,
like having that much anger and yeah, animosity directed at
you for what. Well.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
The savors place that night ironically was the mission the
mission gates, you know, home again, So it was like
from the frying pan into the fire kind of thing
and reversing all the time. So but later on I
don't think it affected us that much until later on
(35:20):
we started realizing that's when that's when it started to
kind of yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, yeah, my observation of and looking at the things
that you've done with your life, it's instilled something in you.
You've got to taste for it. But you know, if
you want change, there's got to be You're got to push.
Nothing happens unless you push. And your life sort of
been shaped by that. I think it'll be fair to
say very much.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
So, Yeah, the fire in the belly.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Yeah, as Charlie word lit, the fire in the belly,
I think we all inherited that, some of us in
Maria's shaped our future, particularly our politics. Basically after freedom
in sixty seven, three four years, four years, five years,
(36:16):
we all started kind of gathering in Sydney, all talking
the same language, and then from there they say, the
rest is history. I mean, the formation of the average
infrastructures call androids, marches, the resistance, the reminder of you know,
(36:36):
the past is back there, the particular act acts that
controlled us, and it needs to be discussed, particularly in
country towns, because the racism in country towns is basically
a big part of us based on having people scared.
(36:56):
Like sometimes when I'm sitting out talking with common Raids,
it's even hard for us to at times to comprehend
that we actually are still here, but we live, we
live that light, and they're still reminders there, you know,
and it manifests in ways sometimes that it can be sudden.
(37:21):
Your action reactions can take a lot longer, but the
impact when it comes, wow, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I think the sad part with it, Lole is that
you take your foot off the throttle and ye stop
and it reverts reverts back. But yeah, you've set things
in place. And when I say you, it's it's not
just you, as you readily acknowledge, it's a whole range
of people that have been fighting to make things a
level playing field. Aboriginal legal services is one that comes
(37:55):
to mind, and that's helping your people find themselves before
the courts and having someone that can properly represent them
and not be disadvantaged. So a whole range of things.
I want to thank you for what you've done. Your
name comes up in circles I mix with all the time,
(38:17):
and you've thought of in a.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
Yeah, I've had some privileges one could call privileges, you know,
all inspired by that, particularly that one night. Being one
of the organizers of the average refrastructures and the national bodies, the.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
Visits to.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
The Representative voice to for instance, the Subcommission and Human
rights there in Geneva in eighty three eighty four, I
studied at a major international first people's program there in
Strasburg for six weeks. I had some interesting people, have
got some interesting friends. When comes to mind with Prince Mahato.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
Sounds interesting, he's now king. Let's see of Lisuto.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
He was an eighteen year old when we studied there
at Strasburgh. Yeah, I've got some other interesting friends. Some
are welcome, some are not.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
You know, well, life's are full of interesting characters.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Yeah, Yeah, been some interesting places, seen some interesting things,
a lot of heartache at times, but the artat's only
there for you allowed some of the people. It takes
a lot longer to realize that, you know, what we're
talking about is what we witness. A lot of our
a lot of our people, our age, have forgotten about
(39:52):
this scene. So you find yourself continuously in this educational program,
this edit occational process of reminding your brethren that, yeah,
this actually happened to us, brother, this actually happened to
our sister. You know, we're still alive. Its hundreds and
hundreds of us still alive to tell the story that
(40:13):
never happened seventy years ninety years ago. They just happened
in our lifetime, you know, and so hard to tell
the kids that a three foot fence. I mean, when
you tell the obvious black kid in Maury that you were,
you know, locked up with a three foot fence, they'd say,
you're joking. That's that's that's that never happened. Well as
(40:34):
your pop asking then asking mom and dad. You know, so,
at times is very hard for us to even get
the message across. At times we succeed. Other times the
pressures are so great that, you know, we haven't lost
the battle. The battle has just been kind of put
(40:54):
off for a time, you know. But then the realization
that you were part of it and you were subjected
to it, that then you have to kind of work
out how you come to grips with that, whether you're
going to let that effect the rest of your life,
whether you're going to play the victim thing for the
(41:16):
rest of your life, or you're simply going to open
your mouth about it. We simply said no. I mean,
all our struggles were based on and Comroy people and
Gagery people. Our lingo is tied up in no. You know,
(41:36):
we're known as the no people. But that simple word,
and that's what everyone expressed. Just simply said no. Charlie
and them expressed it, you know, to the racism. No,
we expressed it. No, it was all knows most of
our lives, you know, and that's how we got in
(41:56):
the door. That's how i've boys started to be. And
then you had some great leader black leaders that came
out of our struggle, you know, and a lot of
them is still around.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I think the fact that you are telling the story
and the way that you lived your life and I
understand that no I'm not going to accept that is
a very strong and powerful, powerful message. So that's why
I wanted to get you on the on the podcast,
to put it out there and tell the people the story.
Now some people might go, I'm not interested that happened
sixty years ago, but you're a living example of a
(42:28):
person that's still alive but still remembers it and the
impact that's had on you and the difference. And I
hope people do understand their history because the more more
I learn, the more I'm just okay. It opens my
eyes to a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:43):
Well, it's like it's like these people, I think they've
got the same problems. They want to go over and
see other countries, you know, and they haven't been in
this country. They haven't seen this country there.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Let's look in their way and backyard. Yeah, I think,
but look, let's finish up now again. And I think
it just shows a character of you're on to talk
about the Freedom bus ride, talking about issues from sixty
years ago and how you have to fight and learn
to say no, and we're not going to take it.
We're going to move forward, not let it break you.
(43:18):
So thank you so much for what you've done throughout
your life. Thanks for coming on to Eye Catch Killers,
and it's been great to have a chat. And I'm
sure we'll be speaking again a lot down the track.
Speaker 4 (43:30):
It's your pleasure, you got it. Yeah, cheers really seaside
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
(00:47):
we're sharing a story that can't be forgotten. In Part one,
I spoke to investigative journalists Douglas Smith and Emily Oli
about how the authorities responded to the deaths of Aboriginal women,
about how Indigenous people in Australia get treated differently, including
in homicide investigations. Now, I want to take this story
(01:08):
back to nineteen sixty five. That year, the Freedom Bus
Ride was led by a young group of activists demanding
Australia pay attention to the racism facing Aboriginal people.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It was a ride which didn't so much break the
shackles as it did open the eyes of Australia when
it came to Aboriginal people. Racism and segregation was very
much alive in country New South Wales. Nates wouldn't be
allowed to work in the shops because they're not tiredy enough.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
There's a lot of them here, that's Scott good jobs
in the cafes, and then they just won hold them.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
In nineteen sixty five, the great Charlie Perkins tries to
bring these issues into the light.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
A lot of US Pradidans talk about, oh, yes, we
want to give the abergine affair go. Then it's full
stop and it's usually forgotten. They never go on to say, look,
we've proposed we give such and such a scholarship to
a number of abergees. Let us support average and organization,
Let us vote in favor of any legislation which allows
for the elevation of the Abiginal people. They don't do
these things. They talk about it, but never do it.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Many Australians didn't think there was discrimination in their country
in the early sixties. The Freedom Ride was an attempt
to show Australians what was really happening in their own
backyards every day. Not only was their segregation, the state
government was deliberately evicting Aboriginal people from their missions and
stepping up it's assimilation policies.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
They think that the white man's eyes and what they are.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
What you just heard was media coverage of the nineteen
sixty five Freedom Bus Ride. Today, I had a conversation
with Aboriginal elder and activist Lyle Monroe. Lyle was a
young Aboriginal boy in Maury when the bus came through town. Lole,
tell me about your memories of that day.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Well, it was as clear in my mind as as
ever ever was. It was like it was yesterday. Is
real history. It's something that happened. There's something that affected
our lives at the time. It still still affects our lives.
At the time. We were against still segregated on the
(03:07):
Mission or the Aboriginal Reserve actually known as the Mission
under the notorious Aboriginal Welfare Act, which was amendment to
the previous Act of the Aboriginal Protection Act, which kind
of kept our parents and our grandparents locked up on
these out of sight areas, out of town, out of sight.
The respective policies at the time, I think under the
(03:29):
Aboriginal Protection Act it was a policy of we were
expected to die out, and then the introduction of the
assimilation program where it was advisable for Aboriginal people to
move into town and to live somewhat of their lives
in the white community. It was a very serious time
for Aboriginal people because we've still not yet been recognized
(03:52):
as citizens of the country until the referendum in nineteen
sixty seven, which is two years away, and Aboriginal people
were subject out of town, out of site, on places
we referred to as concentration camps. Each manager, each mission
at a manager. We had two managers because the the
size of our mission and the population. We had a
(04:13):
manager and assistant manager. They had the right to control
the lives of Aboriginal people under this particular act, the
Aboriginal wealtha Act. But in more we'd like to think
we were double wheremy because of the council there during
these bad days introduced a local by law to the
Local Council Act, which restricted the presence of Aboriginal people
(04:36):
right throughout the town. It had particular restrictions on places
like the town hall. We had all these kind of
experiences going on that we tried to come to groups with,
but this act said at all. This act was an
actual fact. If you looked at the history of this act,
you'll see that it was a template for becoming apartheid
(04:58):
system that operated in Queensland and they moved to South Africa.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
I think in the mid sixties.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
The restrictions from the town hall was based on the
fact that we were deemed filthy. The particular restrictions referred
to the dining room section of the town hall, all
areas in town that served food. In fact, all areas
of the town took advantage of this peace of legislation
because it openly gave the town the right to openly
(05:24):
discriminate against Aboriginal people. And that process continued until Charlie
and the Freedom arrived in nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
There's a lot to unpack with what you just talked about,
and I don't think people really appreciate it. But what
we're talking about is in your lifetime, and you refer
to the mission or the reservation where your movements were restricted.
Just explain that to people, because I don't think people
really understand. And you mentioned the part and we all
(05:55):
know what happened over in South Africa with that, but
we had it here in this country in your lifetime,
and I don't think people really appreciate it. So we'll
just deviate a little bit from Charlie coming in with
the bus. Just what life was like for you growing
up in the town like that, where you excluded from
(06:16):
locations for no other reason other than the fact that
you're Aboriginal.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
Well, we weren't completely excluded. It became a bit of
an embarrassment when we got to high school because we
had the mission school that went to sixth class. It
had a third class accepted level of education. But fortunately
enough our teachers reached the frontier with that and continue
(06:43):
to treat our school like the normal schools when we
got to high school. Of course, most of us were
good swimmers. We had some experiences there, like myself with
about six of us. One day, two young people who
were camping down from the mission the baby felling the river,
and we ran down there and dived and pulled the
(07:04):
baby out.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Unfortunately it was too.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Late, so we've had those experiences. Some of us were
reaching into the high school swimming team, so every Wednesday
afternoon a sport. I mean most of us was encouraged
openly to take cricket and vigoro as a sport to
avoid the embarrassment with the restrictions from the pool. Were
(07:27):
restricted from the ovalves too, but at the time that
was kind of come and go kind of thing. You know,
we could go a be able to play Saturday morning football,
but after that we'd have to vacate the area in
the town.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
You talk it, you lived it. It's hard for me
to even comprehend it. So yeah, you play football and
then okay, well you're not welcome back to hang around.
You've served your purpose, you've played football, and then go
back to the mission. All the reservation. Is that what
we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Well, it's spelled out loud and clear with the return soldiers,
I mean most of our soldiers, because they weren't citizens
of the country until sixty seven. The only way we
could enlist and most all of our all of our
soldiers were volunteers. And we see in the case there
where all our soldiers returned basically directly sent back to
(08:18):
the missions and no recognition of their role that they
played in the You know, all the wars. Our men
volunteered with all the wars, but our people were we
weren't allowed. I mean, these same soldiers weren't allowed to
drink in the RSSL clubs.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
At the time.
Speaker 5 (08:34):
There was no soldiers settlements supported to our soldiers. There
was no pensions supported to our soldiers. In actual fact,
the soldiers, the Aboriginal soldiers from Queensland, we paid no
money to be involved in the in these these international issues.
That was the indicator that we weren't wanted. Living on
(08:56):
the mission some three k's out of towns are out
of town, out of sight. We were segregated by a
three foot fence with a barbed wire structure on the
top of it. Now, I don't know whether people can understand,
but when you can actually high jump that fence and
when you watch animals come and go freely and starts
(09:19):
putting crazy thoughts into your head.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Even though we were young people.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
I mean I had some personal experiences where I'd go
up to the gate the entrance to the mission and
sit on the gate and the middle of the night
and just wonder what's the problem, what's out there, what's
on the other side of this. So at times I'd
kind of sneak down the gate and stand on the
other side of the gate, and I used to seek
(09:47):
the misself, well, what's the difference. However, that was the
fence that restricted our presence on the mission. When we
got to high school, some of us entertained the idea
in trying up with the swinging team. So on Wednesday afternoon,
(10:08):
for instance, we'd arrived at the pool. In general sport,
Aboriginal kids would be signaled out. We'd have to wash
and scrub and the showers before we went to the pool.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
We had to have the.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Trunks that the pool supplied. We couldn't wear ron swing trunks.
And then we were allowed to dabble around in one
corner of the pool. This was with the duration of
the afternoon, and when that three o'clock bell rang, then
it had come on the llowd to speaker all Aboragemal
(10:49):
children remove themselves from the pool. That happened on a
regular basis, on a weekly basis. However, we persevered with
that because at least we were in the pool. At
least we were in the corner of the pool, and
they stood there, the teachers, and kind of made sure
we stayed in that particular corner we lived. Under that legislation,
(11:14):
we could go into town. We'd had our own bus,
the bus to pick us up, drop us into town
for movies, and then back on the bus back to
the mission. The same with shopping.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You mentioned the mission manager or the manager on the mission.
Who did that and what was the role of a
manager like restricting your movements and overseen.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Well, under the Aboriginal Welfare Act, the local serge and
the police station was actually the pursue administer minister the act.
Managers and their wives were hired to control the lives
of Aboriginal people on the mission. So to gain access
to the mission, you first of all had to pull
(11:59):
up and report to the man. To leave the mission,
you had to report to the manager. But the manager
and their wives. The only medication we were ministered by the
manager's wife was stuff like pecure crameman and the ointment
or whatever, skin rations and stuff like that. But this
segregation also applied to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Next.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Fact, the hospital segregation was the thing before Charlie Ham
arrived in sixty five McMaster ward. It was the segregated
section of the Maury Hospital where we were all born,
and that we believe was the initiative for the introduction
(12:42):
of that particular by law. We had also had an
assistant manager and they were residents on the mission. The
head master's premises home was a resident of the mission.
So we had our own mission school for all the
wrong reasons. I don't know why we're not allowed Aboriginal
schools now for all the right reasons, but that was
a system. It was hard trying to comprehend it. I
(13:05):
suppose when when we became of age, but the scars experience.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
And.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
I mean for one white man and his wife to
have complete controlled the lives of some six hundred people,
and this was the law. It wasn't an accepted practice.
The racism around New South Wells at the time it
was an accepted practice. But in Maori it was a
legislative practice. They actually created the local by law. And
(13:35):
I was surprising that after all that, the confrontations, and
that when Charlie and them eventually left, when we convinced
the mayor to rescind them the bye law, they then
reintroduced the by law. So Charlie them had to come
back and demonstrate and do what they had to do
then to have the bylow point finally scrapped forever.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Let's talk about the the Freedom Bus Ride and Charlie
Perkins and I think there was twenty nine students from
Sydney University and they traveled in rural New South Wales
visiting towns that they believed there was discrimination and racism
in the town and they went to, off the top
(14:20):
of my head, Walgot, Maury and different places around the
north and northwestern regions of the state. But the Freedom
bus Ride people, yeah, we hear about it in America.
I think most Australians would be more aware of what
went on in the Southern States of America with the
Freedom bus Ride. But this was very significant and changed
(14:44):
the way people look at the situation and identify it.
Can you talk about the bus ride and what it
actually achieved, where they went and what the purpose of
the bus ride was.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Well, the only village we out of the bus ride
the Freedom Ride was from the odd home that had
a television and the ABC was talking about this bus
that was traveling through New South Wales towns and they
were in Wolgot at the time, and we saw the
demonstrations the outside the Ursel Club.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
And the swimming pool.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
On the way between Moore and Wolgot, the bus was
run off the road by white hooligans that basically chased
them out of town. The bus was run off the road.
It ended up in the in the gutter on the
side of the road. Some describe it has almost been
fatal some of the students. There was quite a serious situation,
(15:42):
but there was also a couple of carlos of young
Murray men that also followed the bus to make sure
that they were safe.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
They arrived in Maury.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
I think it's just so hard to understand that the
reasoning and.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Why the bus got there.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
But we were home on the mission and I think
it was about maybe four o'clock in the afternoon. We
were just leaving the mission swimming pool. This bus appeared
at the gate and it wasn't a tourist bus. Because
we were quite used to tourist buses. They'd give us,
you know, check out sixpences and lollies and that type
(16:19):
of stuff for us. This bus had an aura around
about it in anticipation. We were kind of amazed that
this time of the afternoon that a bus was coming
onto the mission that we didn't recognize. We recognized the
skool bus, the town bus, you know, the tourist buses,
that type of thing, but this bus kind of had
(16:40):
this strange aura around it about it. So we watched
this bus travel slowly around the able coming to the
manager's residence. They never pulled up at the manager's residence. Hello,
what's going on here? Because everyone had to pull up
with the manager's residents. And this bus pulled up and
(17:05):
the doors opened, and there was this handsome black man
okay to the front of the bus and just simply said,
we'd just like to come in have a swim in
the town bars. So eleven of us, of course jumped
on the bus, not knowing what was going to happen.
Of course, drove to the swimming pool. Charlie and the
(17:28):
students started to negotiate, you know, our entry that wasn't
acceptable because of the Bye law. They basically lived by
this by law. Everything their excuses for their racism was
all tied up in this by law. But keep in
mind it was also a new kind of learning for
us too, I mean, being segregated and then being segregated
(17:51):
from everywhere else and I mean your thoughts were segregated, whole,
your whole being was segregated. I suppose it never had
the effect and I said it had on our parents
and our grandparents because with their generations it was an
accepted practice. This is how it is, you know, this
(18:11):
is how we are.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Nothing is going to change.
Speaker 5 (18:14):
We're subjected to this with it. No one's going to
question it because of the authority at the time they
were taking the kids away all this type of stuff.
The policies were their integration you know, to smooth dying
pillow quote unquote, then the assimilation program, which was entirely
different based on you know, they need to assimilate and
(18:35):
to be like other Australians. But what intrigued me was
being boarding school and coming home with me uniform on
and the bus had dropped me at the mission gate.
I'd get off the train, get a bus, a school
(18:55):
bus had dropped off the mission gate.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Then I have to report to the manager. I'm home.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
And when I was leaving it, I have to report
to the manager to go back to Delasell.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, your parents and manager.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
Yeah yeah, So and the managers had their rule was strict.
We had some managers that were quite acceptable. There were
other managers that were tyrants and completely controlled the situation.
They had the right to walk into a home and
(19:27):
inspected at any given time. They had the right to
do whatever they wanted to do with your home. They
could move you from your home. Those who accepted the
dog tags we call them, like the freedom papers that
were given to particular Aboriginal people. That sort of stuff
was in the process. Rugby league was starting in our communities,
(19:50):
which was basically the way out for a lot of
us young people, because our day was like while whilst
the parents were shopping, we were playing set him on
competition and with that we're allowed to go to the
day's matinee after the after the football, and but it
was always back to the mission. There was always that
(20:12):
bus or that car going back to the mission. There
was always that gate closing behind us, and there was
always that three three foot fans.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
To contend with.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
The way you're describing that, it's not this similar to
being in the prison. Yeah, someone that can come into
your home at any time without reason, move you at
any time without reason, allow you in or out under
their control, it's.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
Yeah, and the only food source available to us was
there was a Lebanese family there called the Lurhoods, who
I would think that a lot of our people would
have been in serious trouble if it wasn't for that family.
They breached the restrictions and made sure that you know
(20:57):
that they came down to the mission again against the
manager's wishes, or they'd park outside the fence against the
manager's wishes, and they bought the necessary food like bread
and butter.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
And yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Mentioned that the other day. And it's ironic, isn't it
that well leving those immigrants are the ones that the
tree did you.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
Yeah, as humans, and we're still very much associated with
the Lohold family, same as we are with the Perkins family,
the two families that played a big role in a
big part of our history.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
In the town.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
And that's how that's basically how we lived until Charlie
and the Freedom Right arrive undred and sixty five.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
We've got this going on in our country. Do you
think people are aware of the history of or understanding.
Speaker 5 (21:46):
Well, Sadly enough, the majority of Aboriginal people are not
aware of this.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Part of our history.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
So this history has been kind of shoved in the
corner and the two hard basket, and where's those who
witnessed those that was witnessed it. And there's still hundreds
of us alive from that system, and we still bear
the scars. A lot of our young people, particularly in
our town. A lot of the young people are now
starting to come to grips with the fact that it happened.
(22:16):
And of course it's a lot of mus spellbound that
this kind of thing actually happened to their parents who
were still here. And so keep in mind at the time,
Maury was also divided up the community out of the
black community, like we had a place called the Mission,
(22:36):
the Middle Camp, the Top Camp, and the common Now
the Top Top Camp were Aboriginal people that came in
from Terry, Io when they closed the mission there and
then I think nineteen twenty three nineteen twenty four, some
of them went to Boggabill and Mung and Dai and
all around the place, but most settled in Mare. And
the Top Camp was on the riverbank with all their
(22:59):
huts and the type of stuff with dirt flaws in
that they had an invisible fence around them. Because no
matter whether we were all Aboriginal people were subjected to
the Aboriginal Welfare Act. That was the controlling factor and
that stayed with ustil nineteen sixty seven. And like I
(23:20):
said before, that did night our whole existence. So up
until nineteen sixty seven, no Aboriginal people in this country
theoretically never existed.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You're considered a citizen now, Your parents or the people
before you went through life not being considered a citizen
and managed under the Flora and Fauna.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Well, whether or not that actually was the case of
whether it was just a myth that covered the situation
at the time, but we certainly weren't counted in the census,
the statistics, and I think it was more or less
an accepted fact that we were then treated and counted
(24:01):
the most of raw and foreigner.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
So people talk about the nineteen sixty seven referendum, what
exactly did it mean?
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Yeah, basically, you gave the federal government the right to
enact laws will be up of Aboriginal people. The confusing
part was that we were led to believe that was
the first time that Aboriginal people were allowed to vote,
and that was the myth that company that that narrative
all the way through until we'd realized ourselves.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Looking at the bus ride the other towns, and it
got a lot of media coverage at the time, and
it was significant, and yeah that's scary. Yeah, well scary
in a lot of ways. That it was challenging, the
challenging the norms, and as you know, I think you
spent your lifetime fighting the systems on different things. And
(24:52):
we'll talk about the impact that it's had on the
direction of your life later. But do you think that
was an awakening looking at it now sixty years ago,
the Freedom Bus ride, and it was a significant part
in the history of this country.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
I don't think it was an awakening as such. I
think it was a realization and understanding that these things
were going on. That we were aware of it, but
we didn't kind of comprehend it. I mean, the learning
process with us, other than the normal education process, was
(25:26):
the way we lived the things that were happening. You know,
the Mission bus came, took people to town. We go across
the bed area every morning with our little billy cans
to get the milk. That was our access to milk.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I understand what you're saying there, Love, because as a kid,
what's what goes on is what happens. You don't question it. Yeah,
well you're accepting it. You might understand it, but okay,
this is just the way the world is.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
Well, it was pretty kind of daring to like we'd
have our little billy cans every morning, about twenty of us,
and we'd all travel. But it became pretty dicey and
wet weather because you had to dig your toes into
the bank and won't be tired if you spilt that milk.
We had a system if someone spilt their milk, then
(26:18):
we'd all kind of top it up a little bit,
you know, to get it all level again.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
But no.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Spilling the milk was it was in the ship cardinals in.
Speaker 5 (26:30):
Yeah, you were going to cop it or someone was
going to cop it, but but that was a normal
system to us. It was though we didn't it was
any different to what was going on in the town
and around us. But the Freedom Right also awaken some
of the young white people too, because what was going
on Saturday Morning Camp in particular, was race relation. I mean,
(26:54):
is the town kind of come to grips with this
important issue, and our young people were basically breaching all
these frontiers Saturday morning football. I mean, we've still got
friends from way back then. I mean, why didn't someone
ask us about how to deal with this race relations
(27:15):
question in Mauri? Maybe some of us kids would have
had some answers, even trying to explain to our own
children about what happened, and then watching the impact and
when our young people start realizing, like how do you survive?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
How to you know? But we did.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
We've always survived for some reason or other. I mean,
it was hard. It was always straight back to the mission.
It was always from the mission to there or straight
back to the mission. But we survived somehow we've survived.
But the impact of the Freedom Ride has still not
been realized, simply because it's not a part of for instance,
(28:03):
education curriculum and that part of the that that part
of the country, no one talks about it. It's like
if it's taboo, and Aboriginal people were taboo, but now
the narrative their stories taboo because it reconnects us with
the way we were simply the only the only thing
(28:26):
we've had these discussions with the white people.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
That we grew up with.
Speaker 5 (28:31):
It wasn't something to be looked at and to be
examined for all the wrongdoings.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
It was something that just happened.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
We we you know, our lives were controlled, so it
must have been good for if these decisions were made
for us, they must have been decent decisions or whatever.
But there was a lot of bad decisions. I mean,
we weren't allowed information. Like when they took our brothers
and sisters into the end of the stolen generation system,
(29:04):
we just realized they were gone. No one officially told us.
So a lot of information was kept from us too
by our parents because of what it was and the
effects that it would have had on us. So at times,
our parents were shielding us all the time from these
(29:25):
phenomenons that were affecting our lives that we weren't aware of.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Ye And you can understand that as a parent, that's
something that you would do. But the fact that the
significance of the Freedom bus ride, you're saying that it's
not something that people widely know or the details of it.
It's something that we all should know, shouldn't we Well.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
It should be part of the educational cricket on It's
a history that I mean, you know, we're flooded with
the white history. There's nothing about us other than our existence.
Sometimes it's hard to sit down and explain to your grandchildren.
But again a lot of this, a lot of that
information was kept.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Promise, do you think do you think what happened with
the bus ride and you saw the results from it
or the interest, does that shape your life? Because you
know you're described as an activist and you've been at
the foreth front of a lot of change on indigenous
aspects and the way things are handled. Do you think
(30:25):
that gave you a taste or shaped you in the door?
Speaker 5 (30:28):
It certainly gave us an insight into the results of
the direct action at the time, the Aboriginal Advancement groups
suggest forming and in more e the Aboriginal Advancement Committee
was in actual fact the more emissions Skilled PNC association.
So that involved into the pritical to fathom at all,
(30:50):
as they're probably the bravest people I've ever encountered in
my life up until later on in life, but just
to understand that a group of young white people, thirty
of them in fact students with this young black radical
I mean their lives could have been cut short directly
(31:13):
coming out of Sydney let alone going through places like
Dubbo and Canable and Gila Gumbo and Walgut and then
eventually coming to Maury. It took a lot of guts,
It took a lot of intestinal fortitude. I mean, this
area is still controlled by the Country Party, the National
Party Blue Ribbon seatry throughout northern New South Wales well
(31:36):
seventy four years of my life. So a lot of
the racism, it was part of the system. White people
could do whatever they wanted with us. There was no
police thet to predict because there was no law there
to protect us. So we had to be very careful
and at the same time being aware of it. When
(31:57):
we started being aware of it and being careful with it,
to realize our parents, in all the difficult as they
were facing, were still shielding us, you know, from this
bad stuff. And it wasn't a matter of our parents
teaching it, teaching us this stuff. It was a matter
of us evolving and finding out ourselves and it just
(32:21):
became a part of our education that But at the
same time you tin to come to grips with yet
it's still happening to us, like why doesn't anyone say
something about it? Why doesn't someone do something about it,
and it's never happened. We had the same situation now
I talk about the cancelated deaths in Maury. No one
(32:43):
seems to be interested. I mean, at the moment we're
doing our history and eulogies in Maury, but it's another
phenomena that's affecting our groups and our families and our nations.
Were seem to be always shoved in the hard, hard
basket part of the eyes, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
And so it's a shame that we're sitting here talking
about something that happened sixty years ago, and now sixty
years later we're talking and there's still issues that have
concerned for you.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
I shed a few tears there the other night. I
mean that town turned out against us. There was only us,
eleven kids and the students. There was no Aboriginal growing
ups or anyone. And to walk the gauntlet, you know,
about twenty yards from the pool door to the footpath,
(33:39):
and to see Charlie beIN drug drug out that night,
and you know, the whole town and the local hotel
across the roads is empty, and these people came from
everywhere and there was just us and the students. Thirty
what forty one of us, and they they they chuck
(34:00):
to everything they could at us, bottles, rotten eggs, anything
they could lay their hands on. I was trying to
traumatizing experience. The eldest in the bus, right, I think,
was the sister soone's owner. She was fifteen, our group
(34:20):
was thirteen and the mean brother, and then we're twelve
and eleven, so we were basically kids. And to witness
that it still gives me creeps when I think about it,
but it was it was quite a terrifying experience.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Would imagine that. I would imagine that was extremely terrifying,
like having that much anger and yeah, animosity directed at
you for what. Well.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
The savors place that night ironically was the mission the
mission gates, you know, home again, So it was like
from the frying pan into the fire kind of thing
and reversing all the time. So but later on I
don't think it affected us that much until later on
(35:20):
we started realizing that's when that's when it started to
kind of yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, yeah, my observation of and looking at the things
that you've done with your life, it's instilled something in you.
You've got to taste for it. But you know, if
you want change, there's got to be You're got to push.
Nothing happens unless you push. And your life sort of
been shaped by that. I think it'll be fair to
say very much.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
So, Yeah, the fire in the belly.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Yeah, as Charlie word lit, the fire in the belly,
I think we all inherited that, some of us in
Maria's shaped our future, particularly our politics. Basically after freedom
in sixty seven, three four years, four years, five years,
(36:16):
we all started kind of gathering in Sydney, all talking
the same language, and then from there they say, the
rest is history. I mean, the formation of the average
infrastructures call androids, marches, the resistance, the reminder of you know,
(36:36):
the past is back there, the particular act acts that
controlled us, and it needs to be discussed, particularly in
country towns, because the racism in country towns is basically
a big part of us based on having people scared.
(36:56):
Like sometimes when I'm sitting out talking with common Raids,
it's even hard for us to at times to comprehend
that we actually are still here, but we live, we
live that light, and they're still reminders there, you know,
and it manifests in ways sometimes that it can be sudden.
(37:21):
Your action reactions can take a lot longer, but the
impact when it comes, wow, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I think the sad part with it, Lole is that
you take your foot off the throttle and ye stop
and it reverts reverts back. But yeah, you've set things
in place. And when I say you, it's it's not
just you, as you readily acknowledge, it's a whole range
of people that have been fighting to make things a
level playing field. Aboriginal legal services is one that comes
(37:55):
to mind, and that's helping your people find themselves before
the courts and having someone that can properly represent them
and not be disadvantaged. So a whole range of things.
I want to thank you for what you've done. Your
name comes up in circles I mix with all the time,
(38:17):
and you've thought of in a.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
Yeah, I've had some privileges one could call privileges, you know,
all inspired by that, particularly that one night. Being one
of the organizers of the average refrastructures and the national bodies, the.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
Visits to.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
The Representative voice to for instance, the Subcommission and Human
rights there in Geneva in eighty three eighty four, I
studied at a major international first people's program there in
Strasburg for six weeks. I had some interesting people, have
got some interesting friends. When comes to mind with Prince Mahato.
Speaker 4 (39:09):
Sounds interesting, he's now king. Let's see of Lisuto.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
He was an eighteen year old when we studied there
at Strasburgh. Yeah, I've got some other interesting friends. Some
are welcome, some are not.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
You know, well, life's are full of interesting characters.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Yeah, Yeah, been some interesting places, seen some interesting things,
a lot of heartache at times, but the artat's only
there for you allowed some of the people. It takes
a lot longer to realize that, you know, what we're
talking about is what we witness. A lot of our
a lot of our people, our age, have forgotten about
(39:52):
this scene. So you find yourself continuously in this educational program,
this edit occational process of reminding your brethren that, yeah,
this actually happened to us, brother, this actually happened to
our sister. You know, we're still alive. Its hundreds and
hundreds of us still alive to tell the story that
(40:13):
never happened seventy years ninety years ago. They just happened
in our lifetime, you know, and so hard to tell
the kids that a three foot fence. I mean, when
you tell the obvious black kid in Maury that you were,
you know, locked up with a three foot fence, they'd say,
you're joking. That's that's that's that never happened. Well as
(40:34):
your pop asking then asking mom and dad. You know, so,
at times is very hard for us to even get
the message across. At times we succeed. Other times the
pressures are so great that, you know, we haven't lost
the battle. The battle has just been kind of put
(40:54):
off for a time, you know. But then the realization
that you were part of it and you were subjected
to it, that then you have to kind of work
out how you come to grips with that, whether you're
going to let that effect the rest of your life,
whether you're going to play the victim thing for the
(41:16):
rest of your life, or you're simply going to open
your mouth about it. We simply said no. I mean,
all our struggles were based on and Comroy people and
Gagery people. Our lingo is tied up in no. You know,
(41:36):
we're known as the no people. But that simple word,
and that's what everyone expressed. Just simply said no. Charlie
and them expressed it, you know, to the racism. No,
we expressed it. No, it was all knows most of
our lives, you know, and that's how we got in
(41:56):
the door. That's how i've boys started to be. And
then you had some great leader black leaders that came
out of our struggle, you know, and a lot of
them is still around.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I think the fact that you are telling the story
and the way that you lived your life and I
understand that no I'm not going to accept that is
a very strong and powerful, powerful message. So that's why
I wanted to get you on the on the podcast,
to put it out there and tell the people the story.
Now some people might go, I'm not interested that happened
sixty years ago, but you're a living example of a
(42:28):
person that's still alive but still remembers it and the
impact that's had on you and the difference. And I
hope people do understand their history because the more more
I learn, the more I'm just okay. It opens my
eyes to a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:43):
Well, it's like it's like these people, I think they've
got the same problems. They want to go over and
see other countries, you know, and they haven't been in
this country. They haven't seen this country there.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Let's look in their way and backyard. Yeah, I think,
but look, let's finish up now again. And I think
it just shows a character of you're on to talk
about the Freedom bus ride, talking about issues from sixty
years ago and how you have to fight and learn
to say no, and we're not going to take it.
We're going to move forward, not let it break you.
(43:18):
So thank you so much for what you've done throughout
your life. Thanks for coming on to Eye Catch Killers,
and it's been great to have a chat. And I'm
sure we'll be speaking again a lot down the track.
Speaker 4 (43:30):
It's your pleasure, you got it. Yeah, cheers really seaside
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com