March 10, 2025 • 38 mins
As a former NSW Police deputy commissioner, Nick Kaldas was one of the country’s highest ranking cops. He’s investigated war criminals, taken down assassins, and he’s even been the centre of an internal investigation himself. Nick shares how the most challenging cases shaped who he’s become, his thoughts on terrorism and the pressure of policing in a digital world.
Discover more about Nick Kaldas' book, Behind The Badge, here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Nick Caldos,
retired New South Wales Police Deputy Commissioner, United Nations Investigator
and recently the Commissioner for the Royal Commission in the
Defense and Veteran Suicide. Nick, welcome back, Thank you you've
met the talkers.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That's a podcast. Your career, the different things that you've
done that is quite quite extraordinary, and I'll keep referencing
things from the book because there's little bits and pieces
I'm finding out about you that I didn't know. But
one of the things I found interesting that your wife Natalie,
(01:23):
who's a journalist. When you guys first started getting together,
you had to keep it on the quiet because in
your position in the police, there was an assumption that
you'd be leaking information to Natalie.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I wouldn't say it was a widely held assumption. I
think there's probably a couple of people there that I
didn't get on with who I knew you would weaponize
that relationship against me to say that you're going out
with a journalist. She was a senior member of the
team at the Australian newspaper, and I was the Deputy
Commissioner in charge of Cana Terrorism and organized crime and
a whole bunch of other things. I was a member
of the National Cana Terrorism Committee, so I knew a
(01:58):
lot of what was going on. Anyway, long story short,
it was a bit of an issue for a while.
I guess one of the reasons I took the Lebanon
investigation job was to sort of break that cycle. We're
sort of on again, off again, and it was an issue.
It was a clash of occupations. So I made a
decision to go, and I knew both her and I
(02:21):
assuming she agreed to come.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
With me awkwardly that would help the relationship.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I would have been the end of it, really, but
I thought it was a way to break that impass
if you like, and both of us get away from
the environment. She couldn't get a leave of absence, even
though she'd done a couple of decades with news cours,
so she decided to resign and she followed me, and
we got.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Married well then lived happily ever after, hopefully. I find
that when people think that you're capable of releasing information,
because I had some friendships with journalists and it was
always yeah, I was hearing when Jubilin's releasing this. I
(03:06):
think you're very similar to the way I would go
about my time. If I've got something to say in
the medium, my name will be on it. When I
was in the police or not, I've never been this
unknown police sources said that, and I just find it
a little bit offensive because it's almost questioning your integrity, isn't.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It It is. It's very much questioning here integrity, but
in my experience, those who make that allegation are usually
the ones who leak yes, and you know, quite in
a nasty way. Really it's about hurting individuals.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, no, I agree, and policing. And I was going
to mention this in part one. I mentioned that here.
I was going to do it on the back of
Operation Mascot, but also the murder investigation that you headed
up that became an inquiry that was a question in
your integrity, the assassination of the politician, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
John Yman, member of Parliament. Yeah, that was like a
fifteen year stretch investigation itself, ware for seven or eight years,
and then he convicted. He went all the way to
the High Court. My memory is he wasn't allowed to
have leave to appeal, so he never got to the
High Court. And then you know, through connections and pressure,
(04:18):
there's some really bad false allegations made in the media
in particular, and led to a Royal commission into his conviction.
So we had to go through it all again. It
was nine months the inquiry went.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
For and it's hard when your integrity these main question.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Is it is. Yeah, I mean, this is how ridiculous
that situation was. One of the main allegations which caused
him to have an inquiry into his conviction. By the way,
the inquiry ended with the Judge pattern saying that he
couldn't find a scarec of evidence that I had done
anything wrong or that anyone in my team had done
anything wrong. But the most ridiculous thing that was alleged
(04:59):
is that we planted them murder weapon where it was
found and it was matched ballistically with the weapon used
to kill John Yuman. Now, the only way we could
have planted or I could have planted space to have
done it planted the murder weapon is if we had
done the murder ourselves and we had possession of the
murder weapon we didn't want. It was just ridiculous. We
(05:19):
were the first ones. There's a couple of good things
come out of it, which also I think recurred when
I did the investigation the assassination of the Lebernice primesister, and
that's communications analysis. So we proved that full no the
murderer had been in the vicinity of the murder at
the time of the murder. Then he went to the
footbridge at Voyage, a point overlooking George's River and made
(05:40):
a number of calls while they're in an attempt to
alibi himself. And when we dredged that river and it
was a tortuous process, we found the murder weapon right there,
So pretty damn it I would have thought so.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
But it doesn't stop the allegations coming. Can we drift
into another area you've got expertise in? Is there any
area you haven't got expertise in that? Just working through
the list terrorism, I'm watching with interest and concern on
(06:12):
what's going on the world, and you've got a world
view on things. It feels fairly volatile at the moment,
and there's a lot of a lot of it feels
like trouble brewing without creating creating unnecessary concern. But I
notice of relatively recent times the general terrorism threat level
(06:34):
is it probable that the head of Asia has decided
And that is my understanding, and you'd have a better
understanding that it's a greater than fifty percent chance of
a non sure attack in the next twelve months. That's
why the probable rating provides what's your thoughts on terrorism
(06:54):
and all the stuff that And we've seen a couple
of things well within the past twelve months are stabbing
at the church, what happened at Bondai, things like that,
the issues between the Jewish community and the slogans that
have been painted, and everything else that's going on. What's
what's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Look. I think it's a very volatile situation at the moment,
There's no doubt about that. But we've been there before.
If I think of the first golf for the second goal,
for September eleven attacks, you could go on and on
and on about the incidents that have occurred that affect
us here and affect community members in Australia. I don't
think it's reasonable for governments to say whatever happens overseas,
(07:35):
you shouldn't it shouldn't affect you here. The reality is
it does. There are people on all sides who feel
very strongly about what's happening in other parts of the world.
I mean, you haven't mentioned the Ukraine War and the
Russian issue. I'm involved with many members or some members
of the Ukrainian community and they feel very strongly about
what's happening over there as well. But the reality is
(07:58):
I hope that the threads hold together the community in
New South Wales and Sydney, in Australia are strong enough,
the harmony, the cohesiveness is strong enough to unite us
rather than divide us. I hope this will pass soon.
We all pray for peace. Obviously, there are thousands of
people really feeling vulnerable at the moment over there, and
(08:23):
it's just a dreadful situation. I don't know that there
are going to be any winners out of all of this.
I mean, humanity is a loser at the end of
it all. But we all, I think we all do
our part in Australia and in New South Wales and
Sydney to try and keep the harmony, just to make
(08:43):
sure that everybody is safe and feel safe. And I mean,
it's obviously anti Semitism has raised its head again. Some
of what's been occurring is not necessarily anti Semitism, but
it does tend to get classed as that. And certainly
Islama Fae has also read it's only a head, not
to the same extent. But all of that's unacceptable, and
(09:04):
I think we've all said that, you know, quite loudly
that it is unacceptable. But it is what's happening over
there that's causing all this heated feeling here so we
all hope that the problems over there are solved.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, it would take the sting out of it. Dave
Gall a friend of yours who we both work with
and know well, doctor Dave Gall. Now I had him
on the podcast and he's talking about terrorism, and that's
his area of expertise, as you know, but talking about
if let's say that, without mentioning a specific group, if
the right wing become radicalized, then you don't have to
(09:41):
just look after the right wing. You're going to look
after the left wing because whatever goes, if one becomes
more radicalized, the other will up and up. And it
just seems like they're up in the anti time and
time again.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the issues that
are occurring at the moment that hasn't received much publicity
is the rise of more of a rise. I mean,
it's always been there, but there is certainly a bit
more of a rise in right extreme right wing extreme activity,
and I think it suits them when there are problems
in other parts of the world and people are marching
(10:11):
and so on, and they try and tap into that
and use it to their own nefarious ends.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
How is in policing or law enforcement can we We
can't arrest our way out of it or make I
don't think just make legislation harder and harder. We've got
to take the animosity, we've got to take the anger
and the fear away. You are very big when you're
in New South Wales police about working with communities, getting
(10:40):
communities liaising with the police and making that connection. There
is that that that the way we.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Can definitely and I think it's the only way to go,
is to make friends at a time when there's a
neck crisis, and then when bad things happen, you tap
into the good will that you've built in the relationship.
People can talk to you if you're in authority and
so on. But I think, just to your point Gary
about the police generally and how what they're going through
at the moment across the nation, not just in Sydney,
it is wrong absolutely to expect us to arrest our
(11:05):
way out of this. There are societal problems, there are
issues with radicalization, there are issues with people on the
internet and their pajamas in the basement who will never
hear about because they're lone wolves and so on, and
it's almost unfair to expect the police to solve those problems.
There must be more of an all hands on deck
(11:26):
approach government departments and the communities and so on, and
there is a lot of activity in that space to
try and counter that process of radicalization and extremism. And
that's the answer, that is really the answer. You can't
dump it all on the cops and say just go
and arrest everyone.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, to me that sometimes pause, fire on the pause,
fuel on the fire, I should say, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I mean, I have to say, certainly, my experience has
been that most of the information that has led to
significant arrests encountering terrorism have come from the community. So
it's about them faith in the authorities to just put
their hand up and say, look, this person has run
off the rails. You should know and if that happens,
then you know, great, Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I just wanted to get your thoughts on it, because, yeah,
I know your experience, but the work that you've done overseas,
your background and the experience you've had in the police,
I was interested in getting your take on it. The
Royal Commission for Defense and Veterans suicide. I know in
speaking to you it took a toll on you. It
was a two year project, three years, three years, and
(12:32):
do you want to tell us what you can about that?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Sure, I don't think there's any secrets. I mean, we've
published a I wish it was a shorter report, but
it's seven volumes because we had to there was so
much that we found out that we needed to report.
I'm glad we tried to limit the number of recommendations
and the executive summary and so on, because the shorter
it is, the more chance that people were going to
(12:55):
read it and really take it on board. We came
in at one hundred and twenty two recommendations. I'm very
happy that I'll come back to what we did. But
I'm really happy that the government and the opposition, in fact,
we called for a bipartisan approach. It should be a
bipartisan issue. And it's about our military and our veterans
who have retired getting to a point where they need
(13:17):
they can't see a way out, and they suicide. And
I learned that to use the words committing suicide is
not acceptable, it's offensive. So what we're supposed to say
is a person died by suicide or he's simply suicided.
But the reality is the problem reached a point where
we're essentially losing three people every fortnight and that is
(13:39):
continuing as I understand it today. So there was a
Royal commission. I was appointed as a chair. I was
probably an interesting choice because usually judges chair royal commissions,
but I was fortunate. I had a form of Supreme
Court judge from Queensland and a psychiatrist, and the three
of us I think brought different perspectives to the table
and it worked very well. So it was really an investigation.
(14:02):
When I asked why they'd picked me, they don't really
tell you, and they don't tell you who nominated you,
but they just said, look, you've been in war zones,
but you're not military, so you don't have an allegiance
or anything to the Australian Defense Force, and you've run
major investigations internationally, and this is really an investigation into
what is going on and how the heck it's happened.
(14:22):
A couple of interesting things. We think up to eighty
percent in any given year of people who suicide former
or serving members of Defense Force have never been to war.
So it's really what's happening in the barracks. It's the
disciplinary system, it's your chain of command treating you badly,
it's your workmate's treating you badly. It's that sort of stuff,
(14:44):
and I saw a lot of similarities between that and
what happens in policing. I'll come back to that. So
we handed in our final report to the Governor General
in September last year, and I was very happy that
both the government and the opposition have been supportive of
our recommendations. The Government has formally accepted in record time
one hundred and four out of one hundred and twenty
(15:05):
two recommendations, including the main one, which is to establish
a permanent body to monitor this welfare, these welfare issues
and report public here and make recommendations publicly. We identified
about fifty seven inquiries that preceded us over thirty years
into all aspects of suicidality, somewhere around seven hundred and
(15:25):
seventy recommendations. Out of those fifty seven inquiries, we went
back and a lot of them had simply there isn't
a record that they had actually been acquitted, or if
they have, was the intent of the recommendation actually achieved
Some of A couple of them were Senate inquiries that
were quite significant. So hence we I mean I literally
(15:45):
lay awake at night saying because people were saying to us,
veterans were saying to us, you're just a fifty eighth inquiry,
nothing will happen, and I just we couldn't have allowed
that to happen. So the main recommendation was to have
a body with teeth like us, like the Royal Commission,
to report publicly and frankly embarrass the government, the media
(16:06):
and the public undertaking more notice. I mean there's been
a distinct lack of interest, I have to say, by
the media and community generally. The problems with veterans, people
were coming back from eight to nine tours of duty
of Afghanistan or they've been through some other horrendous experience,
and there's a lot of homelessness, incarceration, the problems that
(16:27):
really widespread misuse of drugs, alcoholism, financial problems. More could
and should be done, and the earlier do it. The
Americans call it so in terms of reference, required us
to look at the five eyes the US, UK, Canada
and New Zealand. The Americans call it going to the
left of the problem, like where you begin to write
(16:47):
something and if you get sort of pre emptying if
you like the problems. So they're focused on getting to
the left of the issue before it happens. It's simply preventative.
It is. Yeah, I like it a lot. I'm a
trendy person.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You have to clip up with the trends.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
But it's just I you know, I tossed and turned
when I received the course, saying would you do it?
Would you be interested in doing it? I knew it
was going to be a hard ask, and it was.
It's just you'd have to be in human not to
feel something. We did nine hundred odd, just under nine
hundred private hearings. I only did about three hundred. I'm
nearly three hundred, three hundred and fifty odd people gave
(17:22):
evidence in public, and there's nearly six thousand written submissions
and we try to read as many of those as
we could. The three commissioners I mean, but it does
take a toll. We would go to a city and
do two or three or four private hearings or sessions
each for a week, and you get to the end
of the week and I did feel the impact that
what do they call it? You know, where you feel
(17:47):
it's not your problem, but you hear it and you
really feel for the person that's telling you that story.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, you've got the empathy. You demonstrate that there's a
homicide investigator and understanding now people's PA and you took
on a big, big role. Like I remember when I
heard that you were doing it, I thought, you're the
good person for it. And you talked about making people
here in preparation for this. I was reading, and I
(18:16):
remember when you're out there't you weren't pulling back in
some of the comments you were making about the culture
or that.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think it was probably a little bit unusual. Certainly,
some of our lawyers felt was unusual for the chair
of a sitting royal commission to do so much media,
or to do media at all, and they did advise
against it a bit. But I just felt the only
way we're going to achieve what we wanted to achieve,
which was to go public and raise the profile of
the problems and the issues to such a degree that
(18:44):
they became undeniable. That was our strategy and I'm happy
to have led that, and I'm happy to have done
Master of the Media in fact, because we needed to
get these problems out in the public mind.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Well, I can't speak for everyone in the military, but
I know a few people in the military and came up.
In fact, at New Year's Eve, I was at a party.
It was a French spy ex fighter pilot at his
house and there was some military. Yeah, I just thought
I dropped that in. But at the New year z
(19:15):
e party at his place and then there was some
military blokes there and I didn't know a lot of
people started talking to him and they said, oh, we're
just talking about Nick Caldos, and I set the records
straight because they were saying, you're a good guy. But
they were people from the military, and they were actually
talking about the commission and what had happened there, and
(19:35):
I think, yeah, you said what needed to be said,
and you identify the point when you made the connection
between policing and that. Quite often people speak about the policing,
and I've had so many cops sit here on the
podcast or just people I know talk about it wasn't
the frustration, or it wasn't the hard of the work.
It was a culture fighting the system, fighting the system.
(19:58):
And I get the sense speaking to the military, you guys,
that's the type of thing that's chipping away.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Them, certainly we can share Statistically. For some it is
the blood and gore and the trauma of the work.
For others, it's how the organization treats them. That's the
only way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah, you get lost in the system, and yeah, certainly do.
It can break you. I understand that. I think any
working cop can understand that too. Looking back at your career,
I'm not sure what you're going to do next. When
you're going to the moon or you there to set
up something.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I haven't really decided. I'm not sure what I want
to do when I grow up, but I've probably got
one or two things left in me. But I don't
think I'm going to do this forever. Obviously work forever,
but I've got a nice set of golf clubs that
was purchased for me at my retirement dinner and from
the police.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Have you played?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, I have quite a few games, but not enough
nowhere near enough, and I'm still terrible. But I think,
you know, if things come up and they're meaningful. Certainly,
my role and the Raw Commission was a bit of
a first, and the chemical weapons and investigation Palestine, all
these issues were significant and I thought I could do
a lot of good by doing them. I certainly. I
(21:18):
think I'm fond of saying I'm a really ordinary bloke
who found himself at extraordinary places, sometimes at extraordinary times.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Bit of Forest Gump in you is the movie Forrest Gump.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Not for a lot of years. He just just pretty ordinary.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Turns up the ordinary guy in extraordinary times. Something like that.
You've been very humble.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Chosen for those I appreciate that, Yeah, But I just
hope I did what I was expected to do the job,
really to get to get it done. And I hope that.
I think I quated in the book. I can't remember
if I mentioned it. It's one of my favorite sayings
that so Don Bradman, the famous cricketer. When he retired,
he did many interviews and they asked him, what's your
(22:02):
message for players today? And he said that they have
a sacred duty to leave the game in better shape
than when they found it. And I think that really
applies to policing and a lot of the investigative work
that you and I have done and others have done.
It's about leaving the world in a better place than
where you found it. Whether it's righting wrongs, holding bad
people to account, or just making a difference. We put
(22:25):
so much thought into how we dealt with everyone who
came in contact with the Royal Commission, so trauma informed
approach and Peggy Brown, doctor Peggy Brown, who's a psychiatrist,
really helped with all of that as well, and James Douglas,
the Judge, and I were absolutely on board with that,
and the first point of contact for anyone ringing or
emailing the Royal Commission was a counselor, and that person
(22:48):
theoretically hopefully stuck with them all the way through their
engagement with us, whether they ended up giving evidence in
public or private or otherwise. It's about making sure that
what our motto was to do no harm. The worst
thing we could have done is to actually hurt people
in our journey to finding out what was the problems.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Offering false hope like it was.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Exactly that was a whole other problem. I think there
were huge expectations about what the Raw Commission was going
to achieve, and I have to say there's some fairly
harsh criticism saying, well, you're just going to be another inquiry.
They're never going to do anything you say. I think
The main reason we went to media is to make
sure that that didn't happen, that we weren't just another inquiry.
I mean the fifty seven inquiries that preceded us. I
(23:30):
guarantee you no Prime minister and probably no minister has
actually read them thoroughly and demanded that actually be taken.
And that's there's a failure of leadership and a number
of levels at the political level, perhaps certainly in the
leadership of the ADF. I think more could have been done,
for sure, and they've seen that now and I think
they've embraced the fact that the change needs to occur.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Well, sometimes you got you've got to push that envelope
a little bit to get that change. So I know
it was very strong speaking now that I haven't seen
someone speak out in a role that you're in like
like you had, But it made people sit up and
pay attention. Policing, current policing today, it saddens me. And
I think I've read somewhere very recently there's more applications
(24:12):
coming in that might have something to do the pay rise,
but policing across the country and I think in other
countries it's been hard attracting people to policing. What's your
take on that. Why has it become so hard because
we talk about our careers and we can't keep the
smile off our faces. We enjoyed it so much.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
And I think we don't regret much at all. Look,
I think society itself has changed. The ek system has changed.
When you and I joined the cops and it's forty
five years or something for me forty forty four years,
we said this is what we're going to do for
the rest of our lia. Yeah, I don't think that
happens that much now. There's very few people that would
(24:50):
say that. And I think, again relying on memory, we
were hanging on to people who joined New South Last
Beliefs for between five and seven years. It's disappointing, but
that society, that's what happens. Now there's something better over there.
I'm going to go. I'm not committed to this. I
don't have to be here for the rest of my life.
But just in policing generally, I'm aware that across the
country everyone's having trouble recruiting and now people are looking
(25:12):
at bringing people over from New Zealand and the ADFS
looking people looking at bringing people in from other five
Ice countries, the English speaking world. I don't know where
everyone went during COVID, but over your coffee shore by Gatu,
they're winging that they can't find people to work in
the coffee shop. It's a problem across society. It's probably
(25:33):
obviously a real issue for policing because you have to
have the bums on seats, you've got to have the numbers.
I think there's some really good things have happened in
the last year or so under the Commissioner Karen Web
She's managed to take out that issue of people having
to pay to go to university while they're studying, which.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Just let's break that down a bit because that had
been a bugbear, and full credit to her for changing that,
because that was turning away so many people from policing
and for the listeners are not aware of what we're
talking about. You went to the academy study down there
for months, but you had to pay for the privilege.
So you've got people that have got families or mortgages
(26:13):
looking to join the police, but they financially couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
So you're not getting a salary, you're studying full time
you end up with a hex at a higher education
tax and you've got to support yourself and if you've
got kids and a wife, mortgage whatever, you might be down.
I think it's seven or eight months. You've got to
somehow support yourself through all of that. The worst scholarships given,
but it wasn't for everyone. There were many that didn't
get a scholarship for one reason or another.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Now I had that was a positive change.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Absolutely positive, and I think you know, a commissioner WEB
is really doing her best to try and address a
lot of these issues that were an absolute speed hump
for people joining. What I mean, I don't know what
the intention was when they brought in this system, but
it was a huge mistake. And I think you know,
there was at no point did someone say this didn't work. Stop,
(27:01):
we're going to have to read calibrate.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Someone got promoted for suggesting it. I can think of someone,
but I think that would have been the.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, the bottom line is if it's not working, pause
and change it. But that just keep it going, you know.
And what it actually did it has topped a lot
of older people with life experience who may have a
wife and kids and mortgage from joining because you can't
support Most people can't support themselves for six or seven
months and then come in on a probationary constable's wage. Look,
(27:35):
you know, I really despair when I see the issue,
and it's just on policing generally. There is an enormous
amount of oversight, intrusive oversight on policing in modern society.
If you look at car videos, body worn videos, I
(27:56):
mean everyone's got a phone. Everything you do will be
on Channel seven that night. All that sort of stuff,
as well as the really destrictive sort of reporting. That
there's any much reporting that the front line or first
responsibilities have to do. It is onerous and I'm sure
that people look at it and go, I don't think
I want to do all that. The job's good, but
(28:17):
the reporting and the administrative stuff is say, over.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
We almost got lost on the administrative stuff, doesn't it?
Or didn't we? I would joke sometimes, Okay, it's two o'clock.
Let's start doing police work now. Because I've done the
car dories, I've added up the car doors, I've done
the CMF, I've done the CMS, and I've probably winged
to you about this.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Once or twice. Yeah, So CMF as a command management framework,
which is really a way of cataloging that everyone's doing
the right thing.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I just call them the Sea words. I haven't done
the Sea words, but yeah, I would like to see policing.
I think it's so rigid to the employment. You're either
a police officer or another police officer. I would like
to see some flexibility. Look at you, you reinvigorated yourself
leaving the police, having time off and coming back and
then coming back in the police. I think there should
(29:06):
be much more flexibility for people to do that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I actually have suggested that,
written papers about it over the years. It's not something
and the unions are dead against it as well, about
people moving from one police force to another. Giving people
if you want to go to Queensland because family reasons
or whatever it might be, it's very difficult. They want
you to go back to being a probation reconstable after
twenty years. It's more happening more often now where people
(29:30):
are allowed to come in laterally, but it is opposed
by serving members and probably a lot of the unions
as well. But the idea of having a break and
going away and doing something else and then coming back
with fresh networks. You've refreshed yourself. A change as good
as a holiday. I found it really refreshing walking away
and then coming back a year later or six months
later or whatever. Some organizations do it better than another.
(29:51):
Victoria Police have had a program that I tried to
introduce into the New South Wales where people will going
to the National Australia Bank, for instance, and having six months.
You've worked on homicide for seven years, eight years, you're
really worn out, the arm robbery squad, child abuse, all
of those things. You need a break. Yeah, go away,
do something else for six seven, eight months and come
(30:12):
back fresh our organization. I know this because after I
left there were people from New Southwest beliefs who went
to work in the United Nations to do something different,
something really worthwhile, and they were told you've got to
drop it and come back or we're stacking you. Basically,
you'll have to go.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Well, you're only I took twelve months off and I
hung out with you in Perth for a bit during
that time, but that recharged me. I was doing at
work out for there, and but I could only take
twelve months off and then had had to come back.
But yeah, I found it reinvigorated.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah. I mean the other flexible thing which is really
positive and I have to say the Australian Defense Force
do it very well, which is to let people go
and do something else and then choose whether to come
back or not. But if you come back, you don't
go back to being a private again. You actually come
back at the rank you left and they value the
fact that you've done something completely different and brought back
new networks, new way of looking at things, contacts, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Et cetera, beneficial all around.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I think there's a way to go with policing generally
in Australia, accepting that that is something that they should encourage.
And you know, to be fair, partly it's rejected because
everyone's that short. They don't want anyone to go anywhere
because they need they need them.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I'd love to see it say we're getting the best
you see with the state elections, if they increase the
police or that's part of the election platform. It always
worries me because you want you don't want to just
take the bottom of the barrel. You want more people
and taking the best people for policing, because you and
I both know one good police officer can make a
difference on an investigation, or just working in or not
(31:51):
just working general duties, one good police officer the difference
they can make in the serving the community.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
You know, you just see the worst of society and
you see the best as well. But the reality is
you're far more worldly having been a police officer than
having been anything else. I think people who do brave
things in really difficult circumstances as well. You know, we said,
We've said it a couple of times, but I certainly
don't regret anything I've had, and I think you'd agree.
(32:23):
We've had a great career. We've done a lot of
good and that's really what it comes down to. And
you know, I think at our core and I have
a friend I mentioned in the book, Mike Julian, who's
a former deputy commissioner from NYPD and he's been the
head of security in a number of companies. But he
talks about people having been bullied in their childhood somewhere
(32:45):
in their life and subconsciously they don't like bullies. They
want to end bullies. So they joined the police as
a mechanism for doing that. I mean, I don't remember
being bullied too much, but maybe I was, you know,
as a migrant who was treated a bit differently when
we got But I think he's got something there where.
One of our call motivations, I think for policing is
(33:06):
to stand up against those and against bullies and help
those who can't help themselves. You can't do it for themselves.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
I think that drives a lot of people for it. Yeah,
so is it going to be a second book?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Well, let's just see how many we sell. I think
I don't know. I really it's in the hands of
the gods. And I mean I have to mention my publishers,
HarperCollins and all the ladies and the our all ladies
who have been involved in it. They've been so patient
with me and gentle I've never done this before. What
do I know about publishing a book? What did you
know about publishing a book? And look at you, but.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Look what everything you taught me.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
But I look, it's been I mean, I don't know
how I'm going to feel in six months time. But
at the moment, I finding it very daunting the fact
that my whole life is sort of out there, and
I hadn't thought it through, I think in some ways,
But at the end of the day, I'm sort of
glad I did it. I don't know what reception is
going to get for my kids and my family and
my friends and so on. I hope I've got everything right,
(34:07):
and I make the point in there that any mistakes
that might come up, I've got to take responsibility. I
can't blame anyone else. I do recall having a conversation
with Bob Carr, the former premier, when I was beginning
this process, and he's written many books and he's really
really high intellect, and he just said to me, you know,
I'm not going to do the way he talks about Nick.
You must check the facts because human memory is fallible.
(34:30):
And he says there were things that he could have
sworn were white, but when he went back and checked
for his books, he found out it was black, and
he said, he just can't trust your memory. So there's
been many things where I had to go out and
dig old records and talk to people and what have you,
just to make sure I've got it right. I hope
I have, and I hope it's a positive message of
a migrant who comes out here without much in their
(34:52):
pocket and does reasonably well. My family and I have
been blessed. My brother was a medical doctor. He's a
practiced for quite some years and then went into the priesthood.
But he's just finished his PhD on top of his
dock the background. I think you finished it roughly the
same time his son finished his PhD. Okay, so I'm
(35:14):
sort of the failure in the family.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That might be the nick kwdoss. I've got you back
on here as the academic. Look the book and all
the insecurities you've got there, and you've given me a
lot of advice throughout my career and a lot of help.
And I'll give you this. With the book, it is
confronting putting it out there. And when you it's easy
when you people are approaching, write a book, write a
(35:37):
book and gay yep. And then when it gets down
to the nitty gritty, then you see it actually printed
out and it's there and you're signing the book and
you're thinking, oh, this is there's no secrets, this is me.
But what I'm saying it's enlightening too. It takes pressure
off you. Well, that's who I am, and that's what
comes across in your book. And I think you finish
(35:59):
off your book with the one thing that you say
that you've got no regrets.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, I mean you say to me, I've given you
a lot of advice, probably mast have it unsolicited over
the years, Gary, but you also have inspired me the
journey that you've been on and rising from a denterful
set of circumstances to where you are now. I think
it's been inspiration on that and the two books you've published.
I hap there's the third one. I probably if I
(36:25):
was going to do another one, I would want to
focus a bit more on leadership and lessons learned if
you like. There is a bit of that in there.
But I mean we really we ended up with hundreds
of pages and we had to really trim it down. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Well, I thought, sitting reading, I thought you might delve
more into the leadership. But it's a ripping yard and
there's so many, so many stories there. And look, you're
worried about people being interested in it, as I understand
that there's going to be some future articles in the
Telegraph on the weekend extracts from your book. So it's
all all positive stuff and enjoy the speaking and all
(37:00):
the book Book to a service. You'll get that you.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I would have no problem speaking in public and
all of that. When you're speaking about yourself and your
life story. I haven't done that before, so this is
going to be interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Well, you've certainly lived a life, Nick, and I think
that's probably a way we'll finish the finish the podcast.
Thanks for being the friend that you've been for me
and guiding me through my career and the little things
that you do that are very genuine. And you're caught
up with a member of my family just the other
other week and that was really appreciated.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Thanks, thank you for having me Gary. This is a
fourth podcast we've done together.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, well you've got more than Pam, but Pam's are
better detective than me. That's how we'll leave it. That's
how I'll just that's what I'll get away from this,
to take away from this.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Discussion, Thank you, matte. I wish you every success and
happiness too. Thanks, cheers, Thank you,
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Nick Caldos,
retired New South Wales Police Deputy Commissioner, United Nations Investigator
and recently the Commissioner for the Royal Commission in the
Defense and Veteran Suicide. Nick, welcome back, Thank you you've
met the talkers.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That's a podcast. Your career, the different things that you've
done that is quite quite extraordinary, and I'll keep referencing
things from the book because there's little bits and pieces
I'm finding out about you that I didn't know. But
one of the things I found interesting that your wife Natalie,
(01:23):
who's a journalist. When you guys first started getting together,
you had to keep it on the quiet because in
your position in the police, there was an assumption that
you'd be leaking information to Natalie.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I wouldn't say it was a widely held assumption. I
think there's probably a couple of people there that I
didn't get on with who I knew you would weaponize
that relationship against me to say that you're going out
with a journalist. She was a senior member of the
team at the Australian newspaper, and I was the Deputy
Commissioner in charge of Cana Terrorism and organized crime and
a whole bunch of other things. I was a member
of the National Cana Terrorism Committee, so I knew a
(01:58):
lot of what was going on. Anyway, long story short,
it was a bit of an issue for a while.
I guess one of the reasons I took the Lebanon
investigation job was to sort of break that cycle. We're
sort of on again, off again, and it was an issue.
It was a clash of occupations. So I made a
decision to go, and I knew both her and I
(02:21):
assuming she agreed to come.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
With me awkwardly that would help the relationship.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I would have been the end of it, really, but
I thought it was a way to break that impass
if you like, and both of us get away from
the environment. She couldn't get a leave of absence, even
though she'd done a couple of decades with news cours,
so she decided to resign and she followed me, and
we got.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Married well then lived happily ever after, hopefully. I find
that when people think that you're capable of releasing information,
because I had some friendships with journalists and it was
always yeah, I was hearing when Jubilin's releasing this. I
(03:06):
think you're very similar to the way I would go
about my time. If I've got something to say in
the medium, my name will be on it. When I
was in the police or not, I've never been this
unknown police sources said that, and I just find it
a little bit offensive because it's almost questioning your integrity, isn't.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It It is. It's very much questioning here integrity, but
in my experience, those who make that allegation are usually
the ones who leak yes, and you know, quite in
a nasty way. Really it's about hurting individuals.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, no, I agree, and policing. And I was going
to mention this in part one. I mentioned that here.
I was going to do it on the back of
Operation Mascot, but also the murder investigation that you headed
up that became an inquiry that was a question in
your integrity, the assassination of the politician, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
John Yman, member of Parliament. Yeah, that was like a
fifteen year stretch investigation itself, ware for seven or eight years,
and then he convicted. He went all the way to
the High Court. My memory is he wasn't allowed to
have leave to appeal, so he never got to the
High Court. And then you know, through connections and pressure,
(04:18):
there's some really bad false allegations made in the media
in particular, and led to a Royal commission into his conviction.
So we had to go through it all again. It
was nine months the inquiry went.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
For and it's hard when your integrity these main question.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Is it is. Yeah, I mean, this is how ridiculous
that situation was. One of the main allegations which caused
him to have an inquiry into his conviction. By the way,
the inquiry ended with the Judge pattern saying that he
couldn't find a scarec of evidence that I had done
anything wrong or that anyone in my team had done
anything wrong. But the most ridiculous thing that was alleged
(04:59):
is that we planted them murder weapon where it was
found and it was matched ballistically with the weapon used
to kill John Yuman. Now, the only way we could
have planted or I could have planted space to have
done it planted the murder weapon is if we had
done the murder ourselves and we had possession of the
murder weapon we didn't want. It was just ridiculous. We
(05:19):
were the first ones. There's a couple of good things
come out of it, which also I think recurred when
I did the investigation the assassination of the Lebernice primesister, and
that's communications analysis. So we proved that full no the
murderer had been in the vicinity of the murder at
the time of the murder. Then he went to the
footbridge at Voyage, a point overlooking George's River and made
(05:40):
a number of calls while they're in an attempt to
alibi himself. And when we dredged that river and it
was a tortuous process, we found the murder weapon right there,
So pretty damn it I would have thought so.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
But it doesn't stop the allegations coming. Can we drift
into another area you've got expertise in? Is there any
area you haven't got expertise in that? Just working through
the list terrorism, I'm watching with interest and concern on
(06:12):
what's going on the world, and you've got a world
view on things. It feels fairly volatile at the moment,
and there's a lot of a lot of it feels
like trouble brewing without creating creating unnecessary concern. But I
notice of relatively recent times the general terrorism threat level
(06:34):
is it probable that the head of Asia has decided
And that is my understanding, and you'd have a better
understanding that it's a greater than fifty percent chance of
a non sure attack in the next twelve months. That's
why the probable rating provides what's your thoughts on terrorism
(06:54):
and all the stuff that And we've seen a couple
of things well within the past twelve months are stabbing
at the church, what happened at Bondai, things like that,
the issues between the Jewish community and the slogans that
have been painted, and everything else that's going on. What's
what's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Look. I think it's a very volatile situation at the moment,
There's no doubt about that. But we've been there before.
If I think of the first golf for the second goal,
for September eleven attacks, you could go on and on
and on about the incidents that have occurred that affect
us here and affect community members in Australia. I don't
think it's reasonable for governments to say whatever happens overseas,
(07:35):
you shouldn't it shouldn't affect you here. The reality is
it does. There are people on all sides who feel
very strongly about what's happening in other parts of the world.
I mean, you haven't mentioned the Ukraine War and the
Russian issue. I'm involved with many members or some members
of the Ukrainian community and they feel very strongly about
what's happening over there as well. But the reality is
(07:58):
I hope that the threads hold together the community in
New South Wales and Sydney, in Australia are strong enough,
the harmony, the cohesiveness is strong enough to unite us
rather than divide us. I hope this will pass soon.
We all pray for peace. Obviously, there are thousands of
people really feeling vulnerable at the moment over there, and
(08:23):
it's just a dreadful situation. I don't know that there
are going to be any winners out of all of this.
I mean, humanity is a loser at the end of
it all. But we all, I think we all do
our part in Australia and in New South Wales and
Sydney to try and keep the harmony, just to make
(08:43):
sure that everybody is safe and feel safe. And I mean,
it's obviously anti Semitism has raised its head again. Some
of what's been occurring is not necessarily anti Semitism, but
it does tend to get classed as that. And certainly
Islama Fae has also read it's only a head, not
to the same extent. But all of that's unacceptable, and
(09:04):
I think we've all said that, you know, quite loudly
that it is unacceptable. But it is what's happening over
there that's causing all this heated feeling here so we
all hope that the problems over there are solved.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, it would take the sting out of it. Dave
Gall a friend of yours who we both work with
and know well, doctor Dave Gall. Now I had him
on the podcast and he's talking about terrorism, and that's
his area of expertise, as you know, but talking about
if let's say that, without mentioning a specific group, if
the right wing become radicalized, then you don't have to
(09:41):
just look after the right wing. You're going to look
after the left wing because whatever goes, if one becomes
more radicalized, the other will up and up. And it
just seems like they're up in the anti time and
time again.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the issues that
are occurring at the moment that hasn't received much publicity
is the rise of more of a rise. I mean,
it's always been there, but there is certainly a bit
more of a rise in right extreme right wing extreme activity,
and I think it suits them when there are problems
in other parts of the world and people are marching
(10:11):
and so on, and they try and tap into that
and use it to their own nefarious ends.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
How is in policing or law enforcement can we We
can't arrest our way out of it or make I
don't think just make legislation harder and harder. We've got
to take the animosity, we've got to take the anger
and the fear away. You are very big when you're
in New South Wales police about working with communities, getting
(10:40):
communities liaising with the police and making that connection. There
is that that that the way we.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Can definitely and I think it's the only way to go,
is to make friends at a time when there's a
neck crisis, and then when bad things happen, you tap
into the good will that you've built in the relationship.
People can talk to you if you're in authority and
so on. But I think, just to your point Gary
about the police generally and how what they're going through
at the moment across the nation, not just in Sydney,
it is wrong absolutely to expect us to arrest our
(11:05):
way out of this. There are societal problems, there are
issues with radicalization, there are issues with people on the
internet and their pajamas in the basement who will never
hear about because they're lone wolves and so on, and
it's almost unfair to expect the police to solve those problems.
There must be more of an all hands on deck
(11:26):
approach government departments and the communities and so on, and
there is a lot of activity in that space to
try and counter that process of radicalization and extremism. And
that's the answer, that is really the answer. You can't
dump it all on the cops and say just go
and arrest everyone.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, to me that sometimes pause, fire on the pause,
fuel on the fire, I should say, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I mean, I have to say, certainly, my experience has
been that most of the information that has led to
significant arrests encountering terrorism have come from the community. So
it's about them faith in the authorities to just put
their hand up and say, look, this person has run
off the rails. You should know and if that happens,
then you know, great, Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I just wanted to get your thoughts on it, because, yeah,
I know your experience, but the work that you've done overseas,
your background and the experience you've had in the police,
I was interested in getting your take on it. The
Royal Commission for Defense and Veterans suicide. I know in
speaking to you it took a toll on you. It
was a two year project, three years, three years, and
(12:32):
do you want to tell us what you can about that?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Sure, I don't think there's any secrets. I mean, we've
published a I wish it was a shorter report, but
it's seven volumes because we had to there was so
much that we found out that we needed to report.
I'm glad we tried to limit the number of recommendations
and the executive summary and so on, because the shorter
it is, the more chance that people were going to
(12:55):
read it and really take it on board. We came
in at one hundred and twenty two recommendations. I'm very
happy that I'll come back to what we did. But
I'm really happy that the government and the opposition, in fact,
we called for a bipartisan approach. It should be a
bipartisan issue. And it's about our military and our veterans
who have retired getting to a point where they need
(13:17):
they can't see a way out, and they suicide. And
I learned that to use the words committing suicide is
not acceptable, it's offensive. So what we're supposed to say
is a person died by suicide or he's simply suicided.
But the reality is the problem reached a point where
we're essentially losing three people every fortnight and that is
(13:39):
continuing as I understand it today. So there was a
Royal commission. I was appointed as a chair. I was
probably an interesting choice because usually judges chair royal commissions,
but I was fortunate. I had a form of Supreme
Court judge from Queensland and a psychiatrist, and the three
of us I think brought different perspectives to the table
and it worked very well. So it was really an investigation.
(14:02):
When I asked why they'd picked me, they don't really
tell you, and they don't tell you who nominated you,
but they just said, look, you've been in war zones,
but you're not military, so you don't have an allegiance
or anything to the Australian Defense Force, and you've run
major investigations internationally, and this is really an investigation into
what is going on and how the heck it's happened.
(14:22):
A couple of interesting things. We think up to eighty
percent in any given year of people who suicide former
or serving members of Defense Force have never been to war.
So it's really what's happening in the barracks. It's the
disciplinary system, it's your chain of command treating you badly,
it's your workmate's treating you badly. It's that sort of stuff,
(14:44):
and I saw a lot of similarities between that and
what happens in policing. I'll come back to that. So
we handed in our final report to the Governor General
in September last year, and I was very happy that
both the government and the opposition have been supportive of
our recommendations. The Government has formally accepted in record time
one hundred and four out of one hundred and twenty
(15:05):
two recommendations, including the main one, which is to establish
a permanent body to monitor this welfare, these welfare issues
and report public here and make recommendations publicly. We identified
about fifty seven inquiries that preceded us over thirty years
into all aspects of suicidality, somewhere around seven hundred and
(15:25):
seventy recommendations. Out of those fifty seven inquiries, we went
back and a lot of them had simply there isn't
a record that they had actually been acquitted, or if
they have, was the intent of the recommendation actually achieved
Some of A couple of them were Senate inquiries that
were quite significant. So hence we I mean I literally
(15:45):
lay awake at night saying because people were saying to us,
veterans were saying to us, you're just a fifty eighth inquiry,
nothing will happen, and I just we couldn't have allowed
that to happen. So the main recommendation was to have
a body with teeth like us, like the Royal Commission,
to report publicly and frankly embarrass the government, the media
(16:06):
and the public undertaking more notice. I mean there's been
a distinct lack of interest, I have to say, by
the media and community generally. The problems with veterans, people
were coming back from eight to nine tours of duty
of Afghanistan or they've been through some other horrendous experience,
and there's a lot of homelessness, incarceration, the problems that
(16:27):
really widespread misuse of drugs, alcoholism, financial problems. More could
and should be done, and the earlier do it. The
Americans call it so in terms of reference, required us
to look at the five eyes the US, UK, Canada
and New Zealand. The Americans call it going to the
left of the problem, like where you begin to write
(16:47):
something and if you get sort of pre emptying if
you like the problems. So they're focused on getting to
the left of the issue before it happens. It's simply preventative.
It is. Yeah, I like it a lot. I'm a
trendy person.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
You have to clip up with the trends.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
But it's just I you know, I tossed and turned
when I received the course, saying would you do it?
Would you be interested in doing it? I knew it
was going to be a hard ask, and it was.
It's just you'd have to be in human not to
feel something. We did nine hundred odd, just under nine
hundred private hearings. I only did about three hundred. I'm
nearly three hundred, three hundred and fifty odd people gave
(17:22):
evidence in public, and there's nearly six thousand written submissions
and we try to read as many of those as
we could. The three commissioners I mean, but it does
take a toll. We would go to a city and
do two or three or four private hearings or sessions
each for a week, and you get to the end
of the week and I did feel the impact that
what do they call it? You know, where you feel
(17:47):
it's not your problem, but you hear it and you
really feel for the person that's telling you that story.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Well, you've got the empathy. You demonstrate that there's a
homicide investigator and understanding now people's PA and you took
on a big, big role. Like I remember when I
heard that you were doing it, I thought, you're the
good person for it. And you talked about making people
here in preparation for this. I was reading, and I
(18:16):
remember when you're out there't you weren't pulling back in
some of the comments you were making about the culture
or that.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think it was probably a little bit unusual. Certainly,
some of our lawyers felt was unusual for the chair
of a sitting royal commission to do so much media,
or to do media at all, and they did advise
against it a bit. But I just felt the only
way we're going to achieve what we wanted to achieve,
which was to go public and raise the profile of
the problems and the issues to such a degree that
(18:44):
they became undeniable. That was our strategy and I'm happy
to have led that, and I'm happy to have done
Master of the Media in fact, because we needed to
get these problems out in the public mind.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Well, I can't speak for everyone in the military, but
I know a few people in the military and came up.
In fact, at New Year's Eve, I was at a party.
It was a French spy ex fighter pilot at his
house and there was some military. Yeah, I just thought
I dropped that in. But at the New year z
(19:15):
e party at his place and then there was some
military blokes there and I didn't know a lot of
people started talking to him and they said, oh, we're
just talking about Nick Caldos, and I set the records
straight because they were saying, you're a good guy. But
they were people from the military, and they were actually
talking about the commission and what had happened there, and
(19:35):
I think, yeah, you said what needed to be said,
and you identify the point when you made the connection
between policing and that. Quite often people speak about the policing,
and I've had so many cops sit here on the
podcast or just people I know talk about it wasn't
the frustration, or it wasn't the hard of the work.
It was a culture fighting the system, fighting the system.
(19:58):
And I get the sense speaking to the military, you guys,
that's the type of thing that's chipping away.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Them, certainly we can share Statistically. For some it is
the blood and gore and the trauma of the work.
For others, it's how the organization treats them. That's the
only way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah, you get lost in the system, and yeah, certainly do.
It can break you. I understand that. I think any
working cop can understand that too. Looking back at your career,
I'm not sure what you're going to do next. When
you're going to the moon or you there to set
up something.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I haven't really decided. I'm not sure what I want
to do when I grow up, but I've probably got
one or two things left in me. But I don't
think I'm going to do this forever. Obviously work forever,
but I've got a nice set of golf clubs that
was purchased for me at my retirement dinner and from
the police.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Have you played?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, I have quite a few games, but not enough
nowhere near enough, and I'm still terrible. But I think,
you know, if things come up and they're meaningful. Certainly,
my role and the Raw Commission was a bit of
a first, and the chemical weapons and investigation Palestine, all
these issues were significant and I thought I could do
a lot of good by doing them. I certainly. I
(21:18):
think I'm fond of saying I'm a really ordinary bloke
who found himself at extraordinary places, sometimes at extraordinary times.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Bit of Forest Gump in you is the movie Forrest Gump.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Not for a lot of years. He just just pretty ordinary.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Turns up the ordinary guy in extraordinary times. Something like that.
You've been very humble.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Chosen for those I appreciate that, Yeah, But I just
hope I did what I was expected to do the job,
really to get to get it done. And I hope that.
I think I quated in the book. I can't remember
if I mentioned it. It's one of my favorite sayings
that so Don Bradman, the famous cricketer. When he retired,
he did many interviews and they asked him, what's your
(22:02):
message for players today? And he said that they have
a sacred duty to leave the game in better shape
than when they found it. And I think that really
applies to policing and a lot of the investigative work
that you and I have done and others have done.
It's about leaving the world in a better place than
where you found it. Whether it's righting wrongs, holding bad
people to account, or just making a difference. We put
(22:25):
so much thought into how we dealt with everyone who
came in contact with the Royal Commission, so trauma informed
approach and Peggy Brown, doctor Peggy Brown, who's a psychiatrist,
really helped with all of that as well, and James Douglas,
the Judge, and I were absolutely on board with that,
and the first point of contact for anyone ringing or
emailing the Royal Commission was a counselor, and that person
(22:48):
theoretically hopefully stuck with them all the way through their
engagement with us, whether they ended up giving evidence in
public or private or otherwise. It's about making sure that
what our motto was to do no harm. The worst
thing we could have done is to actually hurt people
in our journey to finding out what was the problems.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Offering false hope like it was.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Exactly that was a whole other problem. I think there
were huge expectations about what the Raw Commission was going
to achieve, and I have to say there's some fairly
harsh criticism saying, well, you're just going to be another inquiry.
They're never going to do anything you say. I think
The main reason we went to media is to make
sure that that didn't happen, that we weren't just another inquiry.
I mean the fifty seven inquiries that preceded us. I
(23:30):
guarantee you no Prime minister and probably no minister has
actually read them thoroughly and demanded that actually be taken.
And that's there's a failure of leadership and a number
of levels at the political level, perhaps certainly in the
leadership of the ADF. I think more could have been done,
for sure, and they've seen that now and I think
they've embraced the fact that the change needs to occur.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Well, sometimes you got you've got to push that envelope
a little bit to get that change. So I know
it was very strong speaking now that I haven't seen
someone speak out in a role that you're in like
like you had, But it made people sit up and
pay attention. Policing, current policing today, it saddens me. And
I think I've read somewhere very recently there's more applications
(24:12):
coming in that might have something to do the pay rise,
but policing across the country and I think in other
countries it's been hard attracting people to policing. What's your
take on that. Why has it become so hard because
we talk about our careers and we can't keep the
smile off our faces. We enjoyed it so much.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
And I think we don't regret much at all. Look,
I think society itself has changed. The ek system has changed.
When you and I joined the cops and it's forty
five years or something for me forty forty four years,
we said this is what we're going to do for
the rest of our lia. Yeah, I don't think that
happens that much now. There's very few people that would
(24:50):
say that. And I think, again relying on memory, we
were hanging on to people who joined New South Last
Beliefs for between five and seven years. It's disappointing, but
that society, that's what happens. Now there's something better over there.
I'm going to go. I'm not committed to this. I
don't have to be here for the rest of my life.
But just in policing generally, I'm aware that across the
country everyone's having trouble recruiting and now people are looking
(25:12):
at bringing people over from New Zealand and the ADFS
looking people looking at bringing people in from other five
Ice countries, the English speaking world. I don't know where
everyone went during COVID, but over your coffee shore by Gatu,
they're winging that they can't find people to work in
the coffee shop. It's a problem across society. It's probably
(25:33):
obviously a real issue for policing because you have to
have the bums on seats, you've got to have the numbers.
I think there's some really good things have happened in
the last year or so under the Commissioner Karen Web
She's managed to take out that issue of people having
to pay to go to university while they're studying, which.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Just let's break that down a bit because that had
been a bugbear, and full credit to her for changing that,
because that was turning away so many people from policing
and for the listeners are not aware of what we're
talking about. You went to the academy study down there
for months, but you had to pay for the privilege.
So you've got people that have got families or mortgages
(26:13):
looking to join the police, but they financially couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
So you're not getting a salary, you're studying full time
you end up with a hex at a higher education
tax and you've got to support yourself and if you've
got kids and a wife, mortgage whatever, you might be down.
I think it's seven or eight months. You've got to
somehow support yourself through all of that. The worst scholarships given,
but it wasn't for everyone. There were many that didn't
get a scholarship for one reason or another.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Now I had that was a positive change.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Absolutely positive, and I think you know, a commissioner WEB
is really doing her best to try and address a
lot of these issues that were an absolute speed hump
for people joining. What I mean, I don't know what
the intention was when they brought in this system, but
it was a huge mistake. And I think you know,
there was at no point did someone say this didn't work. Stop,
(27:01):
we're going to have to read calibrate.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Someone got promoted for suggesting it. I can think of someone,
but I think that would have been the.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, the bottom line is if it's not working, pause
and change it. But that just keep it going, you know.
And what it actually did it has topped a lot
of older people with life experience who may have a
wife and kids and mortgage from joining because you can't
support Most people can't support themselves for six or seven
months and then come in on a probationary constable's wage. Look,
(27:35):
you know, I really despair when I see the issue,
and it's just on policing generally. There is an enormous
amount of oversight, intrusive oversight on policing in modern society.
If you look at car videos, body worn videos, I
(27:56):
mean everyone's got a phone. Everything you do will be
on Channel seven that night. All that sort of stuff,
as well as the really destrictive sort of reporting. That
there's any much reporting that the front line or first
responsibilities have to do. It is onerous and I'm sure
that people look at it and go, I don't think
I want to do all that. The job's good, but
(28:17):
the reporting and the administrative stuff is say, over.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
We almost got lost on the administrative stuff, doesn't it?
Or didn't we? I would joke sometimes, Okay, it's two o'clock.
Let's start doing police work now. Because I've done the
car dories, I've added up the car doors, I've done
the CMF, I've done the CMS, and I've probably winged
to you about this.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Once or twice. Yeah, So CMF as a command management framework,
which is really a way of cataloging that everyone's doing
the right thing.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I just call them the Sea words. I haven't done
the Sea words, but yeah, I would like to see policing.
I think it's so rigid to the employment. You're either
a police officer or another police officer. I would like
to see some flexibility. Look at you, you reinvigorated yourself
leaving the police, having time off and coming back and
then coming back in the police. I think there should
(29:06):
be much more flexibility for people to do that as well.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I actually have suggested that,
written papers about it over the years. It's not something
and the unions are dead against it as well, about
people moving from one police force to another. Giving people
if you want to go to Queensland because family reasons
or whatever it might be, it's very difficult. They want
you to go back to being a probation reconstable after
twenty years. It's more happening more often now where people
(29:30):
are allowed to come in laterally, but it is opposed
by serving members and probably a lot of the unions
as well. But the idea of having a break and
going away and doing something else and then coming back
with fresh networks. You've refreshed yourself. A change as good
as a holiday. I found it really refreshing walking away
and then coming back a year later or six months
later or whatever. Some organizations do it better than another.
(29:51):
Victoria Police have had a program that I tried to
introduce into the New South Wales where people will going
to the National Australia Bank, for instance, and having six months.
You've worked on homicide for seven years, eight years, you're
really worn out, the arm robbery squad, child abuse, all
of those things. You need a break. Yeah, go away,
do something else for six seven, eight months and come
(30:12):
back fresh our organization. I know this because after I
left there were people from New Southwest beliefs who went
to work in the United Nations to do something different,
something really worthwhile, and they were told you've got to
drop it and come back or we're stacking you. Basically,
you'll have to go.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Well, you're only I took twelve months off and I
hung out with you in Perth for a bit during
that time, but that recharged me. I was doing at
work out for there, and but I could only take
twelve months off and then had had to come back.
But yeah, I found it reinvigorated.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah. I mean the other flexible thing which is really
positive and I have to say the Australian Defense Force
do it very well, which is to let people go
and do something else and then choose whether to come
back or not. But if you come back, you don't
go back to being a private again. You actually come
back at the rank you left and they value the
fact that you've done something completely different and brought back
new networks, new way of looking at things, contacts, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Et cetera, beneficial all around.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I think there's a way to go with policing generally
in Australia, accepting that that is something that they should encourage.
And you know, to be fair, partly it's rejected because
everyone's that short. They don't want anyone to go anywhere
because they need they need them.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I'd love to see it say we're getting the best
you see with the state elections, if they increase the
police or that's part of the election platform. It always
worries me because you want you don't want to just
take the bottom of the barrel. You want more people
and taking the best people for policing, because you and
I both know one good police officer can make a
difference on an investigation, or just working in or not
(31:51):
just working general duties, one good police officer the difference
they can make in the serving the community.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
You know, you just see the worst of society and
you see the best as well. But the reality is
you're far more worldly having been a police officer than
having been anything else. I think people who do brave
things in really difficult circumstances as well. You know, we said,
We've said it a couple of times, but I certainly
don't regret anything I've had, and I think you'd agree.
(32:23):
We've had a great career. We've done a lot of
good and that's really what it comes down to. And
you know, I think at our core and I have
a friend I mentioned in the book, Mike Julian, who's
a former deputy commissioner from NYPD and he's been the
head of security in a number of companies. But he
talks about people having been bullied in their childhood somewhere
(32:45):
in their life and subconsciously they don't like bullies. They
want to end bullies. So they joined the police as
a mechanism for doing that. I mean, I don't remember
being bullied too much, but maybe I was, you know,
as a migrant who was treated a bit differently when
we got But I think he's got something there where.
One of our call motivations, I think for policing is
(33:06):
to stand up against those and against bullies and help
those who can't help themselves. You can't do it for themselves.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
I think that drives a lot of people for it. Yeah,
so is it going to be a second book?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Well, let's just see how many we sell. I think
I don't know. I really it's in the hands of
the gods. And I mean I have to mention my publishers,
HarperCollins and all the ladies and the our all ladies
who have been involved in it. They've been so patient
with me and gentle I've never done this before. What
do I know about publishing a book? What did you
know about publishing a book? And look at you, but.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Look what everything you taught me.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
But I look, it's been I mean, I don't know
how I'm going to feel in six months time. But
at the moment, I finding it very daunting the fact
that my whole life is sort of out there, and
I hadn't thought it through, I think in some ways,
But at the end of the day, I'm sort of
glad I did it. I don't know what reception is
going to get for my kids and my family and
my friends and so on. I hope I've got everything right,
(34:07):
and I make the point in there that any mistakes
that might come up, I've got to take responsibility. I
can't blame anyone else. I do recall having a conversation
with Bob Carr, the former premier, when I was beginning
this process, and he's written many books and he's really
really high intellect, and he just said to me, you know,
I'm not going to do the way he talks about Nick.
You must check the facts because human memory is fallible.
(34:30):
And he says there were things that he could have
sworn were white, but when he went back and checked
for his books, he found out it was black, and
he said, he just can't trust your memory. So there's
been many things where I had to go out and
dig old records and talk to people and what have you,
just to make sure I've got it right. I hope
I have, and I hope it's a positive message of
a migrant who comes out here without much in their
(34:52):
pocket and does reasonably well. My family and I have
been blessed. My brother was a medical doctor. He's a
practiced for quite some years and then went into the priesthood.
But he's just finished his PhD on top of his
dock the background. I think you finished it roughly the
same time his son finished his PhD. Okay, so I'm
(35:14):
sort of the failure in the family.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
That might be the nick kwdoss. I've got you back
on here as the academic. Look the book and all
the insecurities you've got there, and you've given me a
lot of advice throughout my career and a lot of help.
And I'll give you this. With the book, it is
confronting putting it out there. And when you it's easy
when you people are approaching, write a book, write a
(35:37):
book and gay yep. And then when it gets down
to the nitty gritty, then you see it actually printed
out and it's there and you're signing the book and
you're thinking, oh, this is there's no secrets, this is me.
But what I'm saying it's enlightening too. It takes pressure
off you. Well, that's who I am, and that's what
comes across in your book. And I think you finish
(35:59):
off your book with the one thing that you say
that you've got no regrets.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, I mean you say to me, I've given you
a lot of advice, probably mast have it unsolicited over
the years, Gary, but you also have inspired me the
journey that you've been on and rising from a denterful
set of circumstances to where you are now. I think
it's been inspiration on that and the two books you've published.
I hap there's the third one. I probably if I
(36:25):
was going to do another one, I would want to
focus a bit more on leadership and lessons learned if
you like. There is a bit of that in there.
But I mean we really we ended up with hundreds
of pages and we had to really trim it down. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Well, I thought, sitting reading, I thought you might delve
more into the leadership. But it's a ripping yard and
there's so many, so many stories there. And look, you're
worried about people being interested in it, as I understand
that there's going to be some future articles in the
Telegraph on the weekend extracts from your book. So it's
all all positive stuff and enjoy the speaking and all
(37:00):
the book Book to a service. You'll get that you.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And I would have no problem speaking in public and
all of that. When you're speaking about yourself and your
life story. I haven't done that before, so this is
going to be interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Well, you've certainly lived a life, Nick, and I think
that's probably a way we'll finish the finish the podcast.
Thanks for being the friend that you've been for me
and guiding me through my career and the little things
that you do that are very genuine. And you're caught
up with a member of my family just the other
other week and that was really appreciated.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Thanks, thank you for having me Gary. This is a
fourth podcast we've done together.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, well you've got more than Pam, but Pam's are
better detective than me. That's how we'll leave it. That's
how I'll just that's what I'll get away from this,
to take away from this.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Discussion, Thank you, matte. I wish you every success and
happiness too. Thanks, cheers, Thank you,
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