October 21, 2024 • 51 mins
Harrison James has to stop himself from getting on a plane to see his daughter every single day. It’s one of his heartbreaking realities of surviving childhood sexual abuse. Now, Harrison is sharing his story to help others and shed light on the insidious crime that often lurks in the shadows.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life the average person is
never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two, our check on the eye
catch killers. For those of you that didn't hear part one,
Harry told us about his experience of being sexually abused
by his stepmother from the ages of thirteen to sixteen.
Delving in really deep, I got to say, like the
emotional trauma and everything else, the impact that has on
(01:09):
your life and the way that you articulated, And I
asked you during the break, how old you are. You're
only twenty four. If you speak with a lot of
wisdom for a twenty four year old.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, when we share these stories,
it's not about just sharing it for the sake of
sharing trauma. It's about sharing it because you know, I
want people to be able to pick up lessons from this,
to ensure that it doesn't happen again, to ensure that
the next kid doesn't even experience it, doesn't experience even
a tenth of what I had to.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, I think with people like yourself coming out and
speaking about these things, because the trouble with child sexual abuse,
it gets swept under the cup so much. Because it's
such a confronting subject, people don't want to talk about
it and will avoid at all costs. So when someone
like yourself is prepared to come out and say put
your hand up and say, hey, this happened to me,
(01:58):
this is the impact on me, I think a lot
of people listening will start the dawn on what we're
talking about with child's sexual abuse, because it's very easy
just to put it, sweep it under the carpet and
forget about it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, it's easy. It's unfortunately the way that you know,
society has treated the subject matter of child sexual abuse.
It's you're right, it's allowed people to it's given people
license to turn a blind eye to it. And you know,
individuals like me or other activists who are out in
the space, you know, really speaking about these issues. I
(02:31):
think for me, what I find is my job is
to pull that narrative back and that belief back and
say no, we have to sit, we have to listen,
we have to learn.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, well, you're doing very well at getting people to
understand what you've gone through.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So we left part one that at the age of fifteen,
you found out that your step mother, who was sexually
abusing you, had become pregnant. Your father heard that vaseectomy.
He was under the misguided belief that the child was his.
I think you received a text when they are overseas
on the holiday, your father and your step mother in
(03:11):
the Philippines, and she texts you and said that she
was pregnant. You're living in the same house, you're seeing
the step mother who's sexually abusing you, and sexual abuse
just doesn't seem to be enough. It's the mental manipulation,
the psychological manipulation. What she was doing to you, basically
(03:32):
stuffing up your life, like changing your life, putting your
life in the direction that it shouldn't it shouldn't have gone.
You found out, you told us that you found out
that she had had the child when you're working doing
pre apprenticeship training as an electrician. Did you go to
the hospital?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I did, Yes, I did, And I remember walking in
there and the sort of weight of the reality of
what had happened really kicked in because the life, you know,
the life of that little girl was right there in
front of me. And I was, on one hand, because
of that scale of manipulation that occurred, you know, part
(04:13):
of me was really excited to be a father, but
you know, the sexual abuse that I went through really
sort of put my aging process into supercharge, so to speak.
So I was, you know, wise beyond my years at
that age, and I just thought, this is going to
be a real challenge for this girl, and I'm going
(04:34):
to have to navigate it. And I remember, you know,
because I was saying in the last episode, I'm quite
tall and have long arms and long legs, and my
father's not necessarily that tall, but my little girl had
these long arms, and I thought, oh, is that going
to be a way for them to find out? And
I was worried about that. I was worried about nothing
to do with me, but the protection of my daughter.
(04:54):
And as strange as it is, as it is and
hard to comprehend, the protect of my stepmother.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, well you articulated how that came about in episode one.
Looking at it, Yeah, some of the happiest, proudest, most
significant moments in anyone's life. I think if you ask anyone,
they'll say the day my child was born. Yeah, that
seems to be a narrative that everyone rolls out. I'm
trying to comprehend. You must have had that overwhelming, that
(05:25):
emotion that it's hard to describe the emotion of seeing
someone that's part of you that's now there, but also
knowing that you can't publicly celebrate that talk to anyone
about it. What was going through your head when you
walked in there, and those type of mixed emotions that
you're having.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Just as you said, the mixed emotions, an intense amount
of confusion and an intense amount of shame. I felt
as though I played a significant role in this happening,
as well, we had a child behind my father's back.
Not I was sexually abused. I thought I engaged in
a consensual relationship with my stepmother and we had this
(06:08):
child behind his back, and now we've got to try
navigate that situation of pretending no, that's actually my sister.
So it was the weight of that stress and that
toll on a fifteen year old boy. It's immense, it's unimaginable.
The fact I'm standing here today is quite a testament
to my own resilience. And yeah, it was just, it
(06:32):
was just, it was just a looming weight that I
knew I had to put my head down and get
through and survive.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Use the word shame, and I've heard so many people
come on this podcast that have been victims of child
sexual abuse, and it surprises me and shocks me. I
understand it. But you're made to feel like you're guilty
of doing something. Do you want to just talk us
through an understanding of shame because you not on your
(07:00):
own and that's that's why this crime is so horrific.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, So, as you said, shame is a constant throughout
survivors of child sexual abuse. They were made to feel
as though they played a significant role in what happened,
and part of it is because of that expert manipulation
that perpetrators employ. It's part of the playbook, their playbook,
it's part of their standard method to ensure that they're victims.
(07:30):
What they're trying to do is make sure that they
want their victims to feel as though they're on an
equal playing field with them. They're invested in they're invested
in it, and they groomy and coercial, not with explicitly
with language and you know, making you feel loved and
making you feel like they entrap you in that and
(07:51):
you're swept up in the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
And you're looking for that love.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, you're looking for that because they create that entire
ecosystem where they can provide that love, but they can
also provide you know, they provide everything to you, and
that shame. It's very common because it's it's part of
degrading the victim and making them sort of you're degrading them,
(08:16):
but at the same time, you're also building the victims
up to ensure that they feel as though they're they're
part of it as well, that they're on eat that
the level the playing fields a level, and perpetrators of
child sexual abuse have to have to work to do
that at length because the disparity between adult and child
is so distinct, like even visually, you know you can
(08:39):
see it, so they have to work even harder. It's
not like I'm not taking away the severity of it,
but like an adult relationship where domestic violence or coercion
make coercive control maker, you know that the playing field
is so uneven. So child sexual abuse defenders have to
(08:59):
work to to level that and make those victims like
me feel as.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Though bringing those victims up feel like they've got skin
in the game, and if this blows up, we're all
in trouble exactly. That's horrible. So you were saying in
part one that your daughter came home and you're pretending
that it was your sister, that that was a breaking
point where you had to move away from the place
(09:24):
there was resentment of your father because he would have
been strutting around a look as a proud father of
the newborn. You said, the relationship then with your daughter
became the calling around, taking her down to the beach,
playing with her as if she was your sister.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, so I was sort of the older brother, you know,
coming over, just being a great older brother, a really
involved older brother. And that's sort of the narrative that
I played for many, many years. Yeah, taking my girl
to the beach and taking her out for ice cream.
I'd pick her up from her preschool sometimes and walk
(10:03):
her back home before I go to back to where
I was living at the time. And yeah, that was
sort of because the sexual abuse seeks when I was sixteen?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
How did that stop? Can I just ask how? Yeah?
What was the line in the scene that?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Of course? I actually I just remember the final moment
being a sexual act that took place on my sixteenth birthday,
and it sort of just seesed after that. It's sort
of there was a Again, it's confusing to explain, it's
probably going to take a lot to unpack, but there
was a trip to the Philippines where we wanted to
(10:42):
show the newborn my newborn daughter. My father and my
stepmother want to show what they thought was their newborn
daughter to all my stepmothers half of the family and
the Philippines. I joined them for that trip. There was
and I haven't spoken up publicly about this before, but
there was a second perpetrator a woman when I was
(11:04):
sixteen who sexually abused me. As second time I was
raped by a different woman over in the Philippines. Yep.
And my stepmother saw that as an opportunity to sort
of get out of dodge by saying that I cheated
on her. Yeah, okay, that's when the relationship ended, or
(11:25):
I say relationship in quotation marks. But that's when the
sexual abuse ceased. And then from that point on when
we got back home to Australia, the dynamic was, Oh,
I'm just you know, fathering. You know, we're co parenting.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Okay, so you've gone over the Philippines, the sexual abuse
was still continuing after the child was born. After your
daughter was born, then there's a woman over there. And
then on the basis of that, and again you're a
sixteen year old boy, sixteen year old boy in that
environment and taking the anti job. Then the step mother
(12:03):
has manipulated that by pointing the finger at you accusing
you cheated on me. So that was an excuse to
get out of dodge, right as in in the relationship,
this is outrageous. How could you cheat on me? Do
you think it was all part of her manipulation. Definitely hindsight,
of course, it will set you up for it. Basically,
of course it was. It was an opportunity for her
(12:23):
to you know, maybe, and again I'm.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Just sort of speculating me as her mindset. I can't
clarify for sure, but maybe it was her thinking her
and I were getting sort of too close to teetering
on the edge of being caught. Maybe she thought, yeah,
we were teetering on that edge just too closely, so
she wanted to cease it and sort of try to
(12:47):
change the dynamic of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I'm looking through my suspicious mind as a former cop.
I'm thinking what she was setting up there, that the
bullshit that she been telling you for those years, you're
becoming more You're brought into it and actually believing it.
And I would suggest that she'd start to think, well,
I'm never going to be able to cut this off
because you're actually going to start putting on her. Well,
(13:12):
when are we running away to raise our daughter. I
think that she's looked at that there's the safest.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Way to way to get out of that accountability.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
The manipulation of the seat is just despicable, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It's just through the roof. I don't even know another
way to articulate. Gary, It's just such evil, just just
pure evil.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Okay, we're talking.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I've never spoken about that.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
No, Well, I appreciate you with your honesty, and I
think the way that you are explaining the situation that
what's happened to you, people can understand what you've gone through.
Like I'm sitting here and I keep thinking back and
when we took a break of speaking of the producer
and we're talking about you went through all this as
(14:04):
a fifteen year old. What you were dealing with. How
hard that is to process all the emotions and things
that are going through your mind at that stage.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Very very adult situations that are sort of imposed upon
a child. It's a very strange dynamic to be living
that through, and not even adult situations that normal adults
go through as well. It's very toxic and awful.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
No, that's an extreme situation to go through as an
adult with all the things that adulthood prepares you to
deal with the things that happen in life. So you've
come back from the Philippines after that, the dynamics have
changed and you've moved out of.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
The house correct with another relative.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You're back here, sixteen. The sexual abuse with your stepmother
has stopped. You're living in another house. You're keeping a
relationship with your daughter under the pretense that's your sister.
It's your sister. Was there some joy in that? Yeah,
of course, tell us about that, because yeah, we're focused
on the negative. But there's something beautiful in the world
(15:08):
that your daughter's coming with.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
This little girl and is just the light of my life.
And I haven't seen her for many years now. Those
moments that I did have with her were just so
special and just so so lovely and beautiful, and you know,
all I wanted to do, even as a sixteen, seventeen
year old boy, eighteen year old, but just dealing with
(15:32):
this and navigating it, I just wanted to ensure that
she had the best and provide that because I knew
that the life that I was living was chaotic. I
didn't think it was. I felt comfortable in the chaos
because I was privy to it, like that's what I
was exposed to. But I knew it wasn't. I knew
it wasn't what a child should be brought up in.
(15:54):
And even then, I wanted to take on the mantle
of being her father and sort of provide as much
as I possibly could with the means I had at
the time. And she was witty and funny even as
a little girl, and just quick, and I just loved
everything about her. And I cannot wait for the day
(16:17):
that we get to reunite and come back together and
I can explain to her that this wasn't her fault.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And they explained to her how much you love her
and how special she is in your life. How old
was she when you last saw her?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
She was three? There she turns she turns nine this year.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Okay, that's a lot big part to miss out. Yeah,
I'm sorry you're going going going through that as a
three year old button. You're seeing the personnel that you're
seeing the character they are. So you've got those those men.
I see the smile on their face, so clearly she
she went over a dad. Yes, pretty easy, and she I.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Mean it of it should have, you know, struck a
few chords at the time. But she looked like her
dad too. So I'm glad there's two good looking individuals.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
That's that's great, And I'm glad you can take some
joy from what you've been for you deserve some joy,
so you shouldn't You shouldn't try and hold back on
it now. Of course it's special, and yeah, that sexual
abuse cheated you of something very very special. Yeah, at Tarmi.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It did, it did. And you know, as you were saying,
you know, most parents attribute one of the best days
of their lives as when their kids are first born.
For me, even that part of it was taken stolen
from you. So I just look forward to the day
that I can provide for that little girl and give
her the life that I know she deserves.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, I'm sitting here looking at you and listening to
you as a twenty four year old man. I think
you've got big things ahead of you. So it wouldn't
surprise me if that plays the way it should be,
because I think it's amazing the way that you've come
through such a difficult path.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
So at nineteen, what's your relationship with your father between
the ages of sixteen and nineteen?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Is that strained quite minimal but it operated better at
a distance. It was. It was problematic when we were
sort of under the same roof, and that as I
was saying, you know, because the reason my father and
I where it was was because of the dynamic that
my stepmother put us in. You know, it's the only
(18:36):
way we were like that and still to this day,
why me and my father just because of the dynamic
that my stepmother has put us.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Like you're seeing the manipulation that she was imposed on you.
You can only imagine what game she was playing with
him too.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, so, and you know, for all my father's faults
and he's not the greatest individual in the world, but
I can understand where she has manipulated him and what
she's been putting in his era as well. Yeah, it
just would twist his head as well, So I acknowledge that.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, well that's that's bigger for you to be able
to see that side of it, because she's not going
to just manipulate one person. You're quite right that I
should call it the evil step mother because starting that, Yeah,
she even stooped, not even lower, but another act that
was despicable. And do you want to tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Of course, So at nineteen years of age, so this
would have been twenty nineteen for me, she wanted to
leave my father. The reasons I don't know I wasn't
president in the house, and you know, me being the
sort of co parent of my daughter, you know, I
(19:52):
wanted to ensure that the mother of my child was Okay,
that's my thinking out.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Of time, I understand.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So okay, Well I presented these opportunities, like these ideas,
I said, oh we can. I'm still under this coersion.
I still think I was in a relationship even at nineteen.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, so I hadn't got the help yet. You hadn't
dealt with that. So your emotional growth is stunted from
the time you started getting sexually abused. It hasn't really progressed.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
No, not at this point. And so she wanted to
leave my father. I get a call one day. I'm
in my apartment. I lived by myself at this point.
I get a call from my father saying, oh, can
you go check the house. Can you go check on
(20:42):
your stepmother and the baby, because I've got all these
bank transactions on my thing, and can you just go
check that they're there. I go there and all the
cupboards are, everything's been taken out, everything strips, everything's been
taken She's flown to the Philippines to evade to leave
(21:08):
my father, So she knew that in order for her
to have an opportunity to leave the country, she had
to sort of wave the red flag somewhere else, and
my dad would follow the red because he's likable. So
what she's done is she's sent him an email that
says that I raped her, meaning me, I raped my stepmother.
(21:33):
And then I remember my father forwarding me that email,
and he forwarded it to my biological mother as well,
and then my biological mother called me and said, what's
going on? And then I just was obviously in a
state of I can't I cannot believe what's happened.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Anyway, where do I start again?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So my mother's picked me up and I said, and
she said, Harry, is there anything you need to tell me?
And I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat
of a car. Wasn't looking at my mother, I was
looking straight ahead, And I said, Mum, I was I
engaged in an affair with my step mom behind Dad's back.
And there's a higher possibility that my daughter or my
(22:14):
sister could actually be my daughter. And that's the first
time I ever told someone that's heavy.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, how did your mum react?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh? Her face dropped when as white as a ghost.
I think there was potentially, and I'm I'm not accusing
her of anything, but there was potentially a feeling that
something was off, but she didn't feel that it went
to that extent. And I think I just confirmed that
sort of off feeling she had about me growing up
in those teenage years, and that sort of dynamic I
(22:44):
had with my stepmother. It was a bit off, but
she could She never, in the wildest imagination thought it
would have gone to that extent.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, So the rape allegation, was it the formal complaint
or was it just a hand grenade frone.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Hand grenade thrown via that email in that in that email?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, And so how did your father deal with your response?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah? So when my mother picked me up, I knew
that I wasn't safe being in my own apartment by myself,
So I went and stayed with mum for a few days.
And that's where me and mom sort of had like
an ongoing conversation because this is blown up for her
as well, and we're sort of trying to dictate what
the best course of action is. And then that's where
my mother went and approached my father and had a
(23:32):
conversation with him and said, this has happened. I need
you to you know, and that dynamic was sort of settled.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, when did she say in the in the email
when you supposedly raped her, was that it was just
a broad just cause causes a drama. Yeah, your relationship
with your father at that point in time, did you
tell him after you told your mother what happened?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I wanted to avoid it, but it got to a
point where he came over to the house and sort
of wanted to instigate a discussion to sort of make
sense of what the hell happened. It was presented that
this was many years in the possibility that or the
very highly likely chance that my sister's actually my daughter.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So when you adjusted with him on that occasion, did
he accept it?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
It was honestly to his credit, and I don't like
to give him credit that much, but it was. It
was quite It was just taken with a sense of
shock and a sense of just that dynamic that we
were talking about before, where like like he thought that
I engaged in it, and he went, oh, just like
(24:43):
it was really interesting point in time where it wasn't reactive.
It was just he was actually.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Quite it's sobered him trying to the full.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And then he went away and then sort of obviously
there's been a thing where she's gotten in his about
what happened because he's been presented with facts, he's obviously
taking it to her. She's shown her side of it,
and he's changed his viewpoint since then.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
As in taking her side. Yeah, she's a master manipulator,
isn't she?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
She is? Indeed.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I just want to read something about this is one
of the interviews you've done about the impact it had
on you, and I think it sort of encapsulates what
you were going through. I'd got to a point where
I wanted to take my own life. I was twenty,
my daughter had been taken from me, I was falsely
accused of rape. I had the memories of what had
happened to me as a child. That's a lot for
(25:41):
someone to take on board. I got to the point
where I just couldn't handle it. So that's a fairly
honest account. And this is so you were saying nineteen
when the allegation, So you're talking here twenty do you
want to just explain what was going through? Just were
you overwhelmed with everything, that you lost your daughter, your
daughter had gone the Philippines, you've got the issue with
(26:02):
your father, you've been accused of rape. Lives. Yeah, pretty shit.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's not great. I mean in that quote you read that,
it's pretty much just how it was. I mean, for me,
the most devastating consequence of this abuse carry has been
losing my daughter and I still haven't seen her to
this day from that point that she left in twenty nineteen.
But just you lose your daughter, you're falsely accused of rape,
(26:30):
you'll come into the realization that what actually happened to
you was not a relationship, it was an abuse. It
was blatant abuse and a total stripping of your teenage
years and childhood. And that's when I entered a mental
health facility at twenty because I came up with the
plan to end my life on a Friday, and I said,
(26:51):
I'm going to have my final weekend and I was
going to do it on the Monday. I remember going
out the Friday and the Saturday night just took was drinking,
took anything I could, and got to the point on
Sunday where I sort of had like this vision of
my mother finding me and I couldn't deal with that.
I couldn't I didn't want to put her through that.
(27:12):
So there was actually on the same road that I
lived on, there was a mental health clinic and I
checked myself in that Sunday evening before the Monday. I
was going to carry through the plan that I had, well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
To get to that, to get to that point, to
even contemplate that, yeah, what you're going through, it was
just overwhelmed. And is that that low point was because
you came to the realization that you had been abused.
The whole way that you've been looking at your life
was delusional up until that point, with the relationship and
everything else, and it all just caught up with you.
(27:48):
Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So my mother between that year of nineteen when they
fled and twenty of where I got into the mental
health ward, my mother, you know, really really urged me
to go get getzo therapy. Yeah, and they really did
assist me with coming to that realization that what happened
(28:08):
was not a relationship, it was sexual abuse. And that's
quite it's very confronting, and it just it drove me
to that point where I didn't want to be here anymore.
And I needed more extensive help to assist me through
that period, and it was the best decision I ever
made going to that mental health facility, because it really
gave me the tools to one articulate what I went through.
(28:30):
It gave me the language to actually explain what I
was going through, and hindsight's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Right, Yeah, but with hindsight, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
But it also gave me the tools to navigate the
trauma if it ever came up again. So I was
in that mental health ward for about two months.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
And clearly, the way you're talking about it, it was
beneficial for you.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, undoubtedly it was single handedly one of the best
decisions I've ever made.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah. Do you think if you went early on that
you could have addressed the same situation or did you
need that life experience in that age and that wisdom
to deal with it at that point in time.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I just don't think it was a possibility for me,
Gary to go before that point, because I was just
under such coercion and just such manipulation and such a
facade of what I was told, like a relationship was
presented to me, and that's all I knew.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I understand what you're saying. I think you're basically saying, well,
it was a relationship. We all have problems in relationships,
and this was just so I was going through a
relationship situation and it didn't you hadn't dawned on you. No,
this was not a relationship. Not abuse.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, not at all, not until that point. I've seen
those therapists for that year and then getting to a
point where it really dawned on me and the weight
of it all, especially losing my daughter like that, that
really plagued me, and it just got it. It all
came to a head.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
That's another level that adds to the trauma is the daughter.
And it's clear the way you speak about your daughter,
the love that you've got for her and the impact
that she's had on your life.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Undoubtedly.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
So you've come out, two months, you spent getting help,
you came out. But I would imagine, and I'm just
saying this, I'm not sure you clarify it. I would
imagine that doesn't mean you walk out in your heel
and the problem's gone. You still live with it daily.
You just have the tools to address exactly right.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, I mean you've articulated that perfectly. It's you don't
come out and you know all is good. You come
out and you're you're sort of continuing to navigate it,
but you've just got the proper tools to assist you
in navigating it. Because it's it's quite quite an ordeal
that I have to say, it's the understatement of the
(30:52):
year probably yeah, yeah, but it's quite an ideal that
I've got to navigate and to have that assistance and
to have that support, and to know that I can
always go back to that as well. I have that
safety net behind me no matter what happens. That's a
real privilege that I possess.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It's something that you have in your back pocket, isn't it.
If you need to need to pull it out, you
know there's a way to get help which will hopefully
stop your spiraling or feeling like that you're on your own.
So how did life look to you after you came out.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I remember coming out as twenty twenty and I just
had this little bit little bit of hope. You know,
there was a little bit of light at the end
of the tunnel. Wasn't perfect, but there was a little
bit of light at the end of the tunnel, and
you know, I was sort of coming to terms with
the fact that I didn't really identify as a survivor
(31:48):
or anything that's about that, But I just didn't really
I was coming to terms with what happened and just
trying to articulate my experiences and sort of navigate that.
And then in twenty twenty one, Grace Tame One Australia
the year and I saw an individual who went through
something similar on the national stage and that was a
(32:11):
real poignant moment for me to see that. And then
it's sort of just instilled in me that I think
I have the tools and the wherewithal to advocate in
my own way as well. I didn't know what that
looked like at the time, but I knew that I
wanted to help people. And it wasn't until a couple
(32:33):
of years until I actually publicly spoke about my story
for the first time, until twenty twenty two. But throughout
those throughout those few years, you know, just navigating it
and just making sure I was okay before I could
help other people.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Okay, it's interesting you mentioned the Grace and the type
of things that you're doing here. I've got to say, Grace,
when she was here in the studio was one of
the most impressive people I've had the pleasure to interview.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I was scared she came in because she's pretty pretty intimidating,
but had a lot of fun and the way she
articulated things. And I think it's great that the stance
that Grace took and the impact that's had on it
helped you, and I think the type of stuff that
you're doing now can help you as well.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, it not only helped me, helped countless individuals across
this country that couldn't didn't have the courage to come forward.
And that's not a bad thing upon them, but they
just needed to see that. And what Grace did was
she forged that path, you know, you know she ran
(33:36):
so I could walk today with the advocacy that I
that I'm able to do. You know, I stand on
the shoulders of giants, of people like Grace and other
individuals who have come before me. So I really like
to acknowledge that in opportunities like this, when when I
get asked that question of what your story was like,
because it really was upon your moment. For me, it
(33:56):
changed my life to see her when that award and
say the speech she did.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, it was powerful in so many ways. And I
think with people like Grace speaking up about situations like that.
I had the pleasure of working with Madeline West on
the podcast series called Predatory where she came out about
her child's sexual abuse. And again it's so powerful. And
the work that Andrew Carpenter does, Shane Rattenberry, politician from Queensland,
(34:23):
all these people are out there making a difference. Russell
Manser survivory piece, Yeah, sadly passed away, but he was
carrying a lot of pain from the sexual abuse he
suffered in institutions. And I've got to say that I
had no idea the impact that it has on the
criminal world, the amount of people that have been through
(34:45):
sexual abuse and then have gone down the wrong path.
And I'm talking you know, some serious hardcore crooks, bikis
and that that carry the pain of being victims of
child sexual abuse. So for each and every one of
you speaking out, I think it makes difference. And I
see there's an honor having this platform to allow people
like yourself come on and tell your stories.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Well, thank you very much, And I couldn't agree more
individuals like this, They change the discourse of the of
the national conversation, and it's important that we as society
as a community, and you're leading by example in doing that,
by honoring that and by understanding that these are actually
(35:27):
courageous and brave things to share these stories.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
You know, it's not about you know, that's right, and
that's deeply personal, and you've got to expose a little
bit of yourself and that makes you feel vulnerable coming
out and talking about your emotions and what you went through.
But no, I think each and every one of you
are extremely courageous in the way that you approach it.
Thank you in regards to your advocacy. Yes, let's talk
(35:51):
about that. Let's get angry on the couple of things.
The reference. Yeah, if you could explain that. Then we
spoke briefly. PEP who have listened to the podcast would
have heard as raise the fact that people who have
been charged of sexually abusing children shouldn't be given the
luxury of having the reference as to good character character reference.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah. Correct. So in May of twenty twenty three, so
I came out with my story publicly for the first time.
In twenty twenty two, and I sort of knew that
I wanted to get involved with legislative reform because I
knew it had a huge impact on people's lives, and
I knew I wanted to get involved in that, but
I didn't know where it sort of lied or sort
(36:32):
of how I was going to navigate it. So I
spent a year just sort of really building my connections
within the space. I'd attend you know, talks and seminars
and all that, and sort of just build connections. And
so when I knew I wanted to pursue legislative change,
I would you have people that could support me through that.
And this thing of good character references just always irked
(36:55):
me as such, such an injustice. How can you be
of character and commit that type of crime. It's ridiculous,
defeat the purpose. So when I spoke out as a
survivor of child sexual abuse and wanted to change the
laws surround pertaining to child sexual abuse, I said, surely
(37:15):
there's no way that good character references are allowed for
these types of criminals. There's surely no way. And I
went through the legislation and was researching and researching, and
lo and behold, I find this sort of strange quirk
in the law. And right now, what the current legislation
is doing is it's prohibiting certain individuals, certain child sex offenders,
(37:37):
from using good character references, but it's allowing a whole
other class of individuals to do it. And the reason
it's like that was because the current law was introduced
by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
So at the moment, the individuals that are prohibited from
using good character references are the teachers, the scoutmasters, the
(37:57):
religious leaders, anyone who has out with good standing in
the community had and utilize that outward good standing to
facilitate the crime. But gary there's a whole other class
of individuals that are still allowed to use these good
character references, the stepmothers, the neighbors, the grandparents, the older brothers,
the cousins, whatever it is. But our argument is that
(38:21):
good standing, it's a cultivated and very calculated and deceitful
good character that they cultivate that still allows them to
facilitate that crime. And right now, in courts, in the sentencing,
so this is the back end of courts, So they've
already gone through a trial, a judges found them more
one hundred percent guilty of committing this crime, and then
(38:42):
they come back in the sentencing and they're getting these
discounts essentially discount character because of their good character, but
they're getting discounts on their sentences for the very thing
that allowed them to facilitate the crime and commit the crime.
So we're trying to extend the current legislation to encapsulate
that category of offender as well, so no child sex
(39:04):
offender can utilize a good character reference in the sense
in procedure of court. And last year, in May of
twenty twenty three, my campaign partner and I, Jared Grice,
we started the hashtag your reference Ain't Relevant campaign and
we started in our home state of New South Wales
because we live here. We got involved and in touch
(39:28):
with the Attorney General here in New South Wales, Attorney
General Michael Daily. He initiated a review. The first review,
you know, it resulted in total polarity from advocates and
people who agreed with us and the legal community. So
then we came back and Michael Daily, thank god he did,
(39:49):
he started he instigated a second review with the New
South Wales Sensing Council, which is currently underway, and he
took it to the Standing Council of Attorney's General's meeting,
which is the national meeting where all the ags of
Attorney Generals from each jurisdiction come together to discuss national
consistency when it comes to lawa form and that pretty
(40:11):
much put us, single handedly put us on the national map.
And this was something that was a relative obscurity. No
person knew that a pedophile could use a good character reference.
Now it's a core tenant of the national conversation because
of the work that we've done, and we've been able
to meet with the Attorney generals from each state in
(40:31):
jurisdiction and we're continuing to meet more.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Well, full credit to you for making that difference, and
so people understand what we're dealing with. And you articulated
very clearly pedophiles manipulate. That's how they build a trust.
So to have someone coming in and saying, oh, well,
look this person that was babysitting our children, they would
always help. They'd come over and always offer to babysit
(40:57):
the kids. That's not good character. That is basically put
in the fact sheet. If I'm a cop, I'm putting
that in the fact sheet, that's showing the tendency to
create that environment where they can pray on people. So
little things like that make a difference. And like you
chip away, and I know how hard it is to
change legislation and the resistance that comes from the legal
fraternity and everything it's enshrined. It's hard, but that's the
(41:20):
way we've always done it. Oh, you don't understand. And
when you're trying to push changes in legislation, it's a battle.
But full credit to you that you're getting it getting
it to this stage.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And look, Jared
and I and we have fantastic advocates that have come forward.
You know, we've built this campaign and we understand that
we have a responsibility to allow other abuse survivors to
share their story. So we have a gentleman in the
act by the names of Josh Burns. He shares his story.
He's a fantastic individual. In South Australia, we have a
(41:53):
Alyssa James who shares her story incredibly, just so bravely,
just purely in the pursuit of change and wanting to
make a difference. And it's really, really really important that
we that the courts incorporate and understanding of how this
crime operates, because as you said, there, you know, this
(42:14):
is a good character. It is a weapon amongst their
arsenal of deceit. It's part of the crime, and the
courts have to understand that and encapsulate that in the sentence.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I like saying, an armed robber that's got a bellaclava.
Yeah exactly. I think, let's it's.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
So ludicrous and backwards and we just need to get
on the front foot of it and change it. And
that's that's where my advocacy lies. It's where the good
character references.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
That's okay, that's my thing. Keep pushing for it. The
fact that you've connected with so many people that have
got shared experiences, is that helpful for you?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Of course? And just to see you know, I have
a friend named Anna and she's a survivor as well,
and you know, I get asked all these questions, how
do you how do you deal with you know, survivors
that are constantly telling you their stories, like it must
be hard to hear these stories all the time, and
to an extent it is. And you know, there's a
thing called vicarious trauma. But my friend Anna, who's just amazing,
(43:17):
she says, Harry, perception and mindset is so important, and
you can view these stories as giving you vicarious trauma,
or you can change that mindset and you can look
at these survivors and you can think, my god, they're
standing here on two feet after the adversity of they're faced,
and there they're and they're pursuing these beautiful lives and
doing these great things. That's vicarious resilience, and that's how
(43:41):
I choose to view it now. Vicario is resilience. So
it's something to see a survivor speaking about their story
and coming forward so bravely and courageously and sharing their
lived experience purely because they want to ensure that it
doesn't happen to another kid. That builds me up. So
it's it's sort of selfish why I do what I do,
but it really does build me up.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
No, Well, you've every right to draw on those strengths.
And I think when you refer to survivor a child
sexual abuse, I think during this podcast, I've made reference
to victims of child sexual abuse, and I've been pulled
up on that before because the way you sity. You
are a survivor, it's something to be proud. And the
other people I've spoken to a survivors and they're warriors
(44:22):
in their own way. They've overcome things that no child
should have to go to. So it's something that you
should be proud of. What other things that you got
going on in your life?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, So I do the advocacy. I go around the country.
I have the privilege of being able to speak. I
get to do incredible opporneies like this. I have a
I think called a substack account, so I write articles
and people are more than welcome to engage and subscribe
to that.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
How does that work and how can they access that?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, so it's a web page. It's called Harrison James
Activism Unfiltered and it's just me being able to express
my thought and sort of give my thought provoking commentary
on situations. And yeah, they can go to substack dot
it's Harry James dot com and sort of subscribe to
be a part of those articles and read up on them.
(45:12):
But also social media is a big thing for me
as well. And that's essentially how the campaign that your
reference Ain't relevant campaign, That's how it's been able to
get to the point that it's at now because of
the social media and just sort of people are able
to engage, and yeah, the impact of it, it's been
really remarkable. And never in a million years do I
(45:33):
think you know the kid that was going through what
he did at thirteen and fourteen fifteen years old would
go on to be a voice and be quite a
not blow smoke up my own ass, but quite quite
a big voice.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
A powerful, powerful voice. And I keep having to check
myself that you're twenty four years old, But you did
say during the podcast that you had your maturity went
exponentially because of the speriences you've got. And I'm sitting
here opposite a person that's speaking with so much wisdom
that's way beyond twenty four years. So like, keep up
and keep up the good work. Thank you your daughter,
(46:11):
future hopes plans. Do you hope to at some stage
reconnect with your daughter? I know in one of the
many articles I've read about you, you've said you have
to check yourself time and time again not to get
on the plane and go over there and see her,
but again for the person that you are, the quality
of the person that you are, you've said that you
(46:33):
don't want to cause confusion in her life at such
an early age where she's not ready to deal with it.
So talk us through your hopes about the future there.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, of course, I hope more than anything that I'll
be able to reunite with my daughter. It's such a
it's imperative that I do, you know, because it's interesting.
I've been stripped of a daughter, and you know I
talk about that quite a bit. But also at the
end of the day, Gary, that little girl's been stripped
of a father as well, and she'll never get those
(47:04):
years back because of what my stepmother decided to do.
And it's the shame and the guilt. It falls squarely
at my stepmother's feet. And I hope that one day.
You know, my daughter turns nine this year. It's there's
never going to be a right time to have this conversation,
but right now is the least right time. It's not
(47:28):
appropriate for me, as you said. You know, I've said
in articles before. You know, I fight the urge every
single morning to get that first flight to the Philippines
to pick her right back up and bring her home
to safety where I know she's going to be safe
with me. But if I go over there that confusion
that I'm going to impose upon her. There's already been
one childhood that's been corrupted. I want to ensure as
(47:50):
a father that I do everything in my power to
impose the least amount of pain upon my daughter this
with this situation that neither her or I ask for.
So I really hope that there's a day where, you know,
she'll and if she's anything like her father, she'll ask
questions and she'll be curious and want to find out.
(48:10):
And I not only do I hope, but I know
that there will be a day where we reunite because
I'm going to ensure that it happens because it's really
important to me that I'm able to establish a connection
with her, and I hope that's reciprocated on her. And
you know, I don't know what she's been told or
(48:33):
or will be told in the in the period of
time that I don't see her, But all I can
hope is that she she and I can come can
reunite and come together with an understanding of what's happened
and an empathy. And I just hope that I can
educate her on that and assist her through through her
own trauma that she's inevitably going to face. By coming
(48:54):
to terms with this, It's going to be very traumatic
for that girl, and I recognize that, and as a
father and someone who has been through pain myself, I
want to be able to help her navigate that. And
I hope that day comes.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Well, just the way that you've described that. I think,
hang on to a recording of what you just said
in the last five minutes and send that to your
daughter at the right stage, and she'll know how much
she is loved and how special a father is. So
I think you'll get that message across. And there's something
about you, there's that X factor that I think, yeah,
(49:30):
things will work out. And I want to say this
in wrapping up. I'm just it's people like you that
inspire me, like people that have experienced situations and that
just come through the resilience and the way that you've
come through and the balance view that you've got on
what's happened and the way that you accepted. I think
(49:51):
anyone that listens to your story will be inspired, shocked
by what you've been through, but also inspired and educated.
So the work that you're doing. Get out there to
as many people and speak to as many people as
you can, because I think you've got a really powerful
message that is making a difference.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Thank you, Garry. That means the world. And just to
have the opportunity to come on here and share that message,
it means the world. And you're doing phenomenal work by
allowing individuals like me to come on here and share
those stories. So again, just a debt of gratitude to
thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
It's an honor.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
All the best, Thank you, cheers.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I know the world's a good place when you have
someone like Harrison James advocating for survivors as child's sexual abuse.
What he went through was horrendous, But the way he's
come through and the way he articulates his own experience
and the help that he's trying to provide others by
talking about this hideous crime, I think is inspirational. I
really enjoyed sitting down having to chat with him, and
(50:51):
I just found him a fascinating person and what a
great outlook he has on life.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Nine
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life the average person is
never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two, our check on the eye
catch killers. For those of you that didn't hear part one,
Harry told us about his experience of being sexually abused
by his stepmother from the ages of thirteen to sixteen.
Delving in really deep, I got to say, like the
emotional trauma and everything else, the impact that has on
(01:09):
your life and the way that you articulated, And I
asked you during the break, how old you are. You're
only twenty four. If you speak with a lot of
wisdom for a twenty four year old.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, when we share these stories,
it's not about just sharing it for the sake of
sharing trauma. It's about sharing it because you know, I
want people to be able to pick up lessons from this,
to ensure that it doesn't happen again, to ensure that
the next kid doesn't even experience it, doesn't experience even
a tenth of what I had to.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, I think with people like yourself coming out and
speaking about these things, because the trouble with child sexual abuse,
it gets swept under the cup so much. Because it's
such a confronting subject, people don't want to talk about
it and will avoid at all costs. So when someone
like yourself is prepared to come out and say put
your hand up and say, hey, this happened to me,
(01:58):
this is the impact on me, I think a lot
of people listening will start the dawn on what we're
talking about with child's sexual abuse, because it's very easy
just to put it, sweep it under the carpet and
forget about it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, it's easy. It's unfortunately the way that you know,
society has treated the subject matter of child sexual abuse.
It's you're right, it's allowed people to it's given people
license to turn a blind eye to it. And you know,
individuals like me or other activists who are out in
the space, you know, really speaking about these issues. I
(02:31):
think for me, what I find is my job is
to pull that narrative back and that belief back and
say no, we have to sit, we have to listen,
we have to learn.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, well, you're doing very well at getting people to
understand what you've gone through.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So we left part one that at the age of fifteen,
you found out that your step mother, who was sexually
abusing you, had become pregnant. Your father heard that vaseectomy.
He was under the misguided belief that the child was his.
I think you received a text when they are overseas
on the holiday, your father and your step mother in
(03:11):
the Philippines, and she texts you and said that she
was pregnant. You're living in the same house, you're seeing
the step mother who's sexually abusing you, and sexual abuse
just doesn't seem to be enough. It's the mental manipulation,
the psychological manipulation. What she was doing to you, basically
(03:32):
stuffing up your life, like changing your life, putting your
life in the direction that it shouldn't it shouldn't have gone.
You found out, you told us that you found out
that she had had the child when you're working doing
pre apprenticeship training as an electrician. Did you go to
the hospital?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I did, Yes, I did, And I remember walking in
there and the sort of weight of the reality of
what had happened really kicked in because the life, you know,
the life of that little girl was right there in
front of me. And I was, on one hand, because
of that scale of manipulation that occurred, you know, part
(04:13):
of me was really excited to be a father, but
you know, the sexual abuse that I went through really
sort of put my aging process into supercharge, so to speak.
So I was, you know, wise beyond my years at
that age, and I just thought, this is going to
be a real challenge for this girl, and I'm going
(04:34):
to have to navigate it. And I remember, you know,
because I was saying in the last episode, I'm quite
tall and have long arms and long legs, and my
father's not necessarily that tall, but my little girl had
these long arms, and I thought, oh, is that going
to be a way for them to find out? And
I was worried about that. I was worried about nothing
to do with me, but the protection of my daughter.
(04:54):
And as strange as it is, as it is and
hard to comprehend, the protect of my stepmother.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, well you articulated how that came about in episode one.
Looking at it, Yeah, some of the happiest, proudest, most
significant moments in anyone's life. I think if you ask anyone,
they'll say the day my child was born. Yeah, that
seems to be a narrative that everyone rolls out. I'm
trying to comprehend. You must have had that overwhelming, that
(05:25):
emotion that it's hard to describe the emotion of seeing
someone that's part of you that's now there, but also
knowing that you can't publicly celebrate that talk to anyone
about it. What was going through your head when you
walked in there, and those type of mixed emotions that
you're having.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Just as you said, the mixed emotions, an intense amount
of confusion and an intense amount of shame. I felt
as though I played a significant role in this happening,
as well, we had a child behind my father's back.
Not I was sexually abused. I thought I engaged in
a consensual relationship with my stepmother and we had this
(06:08):
child behind his back, and now we've got to try
navigate that situation of pretending no, that's actually my sister.
So it was the weight of that stress and that
toll on a fifteen year old boy. It's immense, it's unimaginable.
The fact I'm standing here today is quite a testament
to my own resilience. And yeah, it was just, it
(06:32):
was just, it was just a looming weight that I
knew I had to put my head down and get
through and survive.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Use the word shame, and I've heard so many people
come on this podcast that have been victims of child
sexual abuse, and it surprises me and shocks me. I
understand it. But you're made to feel like you're guilty
of doing something. Do you want to just talk us
through an understanding of shame because you not on your
(07:00):
own and that's that's why this crime is so horrific.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, So, as you said, shame is a constant throughout
survivors of child sexual abuse. They were made to feel
as though they played a significant role in what happened,
and part of it is because of that expert manipulation
that perpetrators employ. It's part of the playbook, their playbook,
it's part of their standard method to ensure that they're victims.
(07:30):
What they're trying to do is make sure that they
want their victims to feel as though they're on an
equal playing field with them. They're invested in they're invested
in it, and they groomy and coercial, not with explicitly
with language and you know, making you feel loved and
making you feel like they entrap you in that and
(07:51):
you're swept up in the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
And you're looking for that love.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, you're looking for that because they create that entire
ecosystem where they can provide that love, but they can
also provide you know, they provide everything to you, and
that shame. It's very common because it's it's part of
degrading the victim and making them sort of you're degrading them,
(08:16):
but at the same time, you're also building the victims
up to ensure that they feel as though they're they're
part of it as well, that they're on eat that
the level the playing fields a level, and perpetrators of
child sexual abuse have to have to work to do
that at length because the disparity between adult and child
is so distinct, like even visually, you know you can
(08:39):
see it, so they have to work even harder. It's
not like I'm not taking away the severity of it,
but like an adult relationship where domestic violence or coercion
make coercive control maker, you know that the playing field
is so uneven. So child sexual abuse defenders have to
(08:59):
work to to level that and make those victims like
me feel as.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Though bringing those victims up feel like they've got skin
in the game, and if this blows up, we're all
in trouble exactly. That's horrible. So you were saying in
part one that your daughter came home and you're pretending
that it was your sister, that that was a breaking
point where you had to move away from the place
(09:24):
there was resentment of your father because he would have
been strutting around a look as a proud father of
the newborn. You said, the relationship then with your daughter
became the calling around, taking her down to the beach,
playing with her as if she was your sister.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, so I was sort of the older brother, you know,
coming over, just being a great older brother, a really
involved older brother. And that's sort of the narrative that
I played for many, many years. Yeah, taking my girl
to the beach and taking her out for ice cream.
I'd pick her up from her preschool sometimes and walk
(10:03):
her back home before I go to back to where
I was living at the time. And yeah, that was
sort of because the sexual abuse seeks when I was sixteen?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
How did that stop? Can I just ask how? Yeah?
What was the line in the scene that?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Of course? I actually I just remember the final moment
being a sexual act that took place on my sixteenth birthday,
and it sort of just seesed after that. It's sort
of there was a Again, it's confusing to explain, it's
probably going to take a lot to unpack, but there
was a trip to the Philippines where we wanted to
(10:42):
show the newborn my newborn daughter. My father and my
stepmother want to show what they thought was their newborn
daughter to all my stepmothers half of the family and
the Philippines. I joined them for that trip. There was
and I haven't spoken up publicly about this before, but
there was a second perpetrator a woman when I was
(11:04):
sixteen who sexually abused me. As second time I was
raped by a different woman over in the Philippines. Yep.
And my stepmother saw that as an opportunity to sort
of get out of dodge by saying that I cheated
on her. Yeah, okay, that's when the relationship ended, or
(11:25):
I say relationship in quotation marks. But that's when the
sexual abuse ceased. And then from that point on when
we got back home to Australia, the dynamic was, Oh,
I'm just you know, fathering. You know, we're co parenting.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Okay, so you've gone over the Philippines, the sexual abuse
was still continuing after the child was born. After your
daughter was born, then there's a woman over there. And
then on the basis of that, and again you're a
sixteen year old boy, sixteen year old boy in that
environment and taking the anti job. Then the step mother
(12:03):
has manipulated that by pointing the finger at you accusing
you cheated on me. So that was an excuse to
get out of dodge, right as in in the relationship,
this is outrageous. How could you cheat on me? Do
you think it was all part of her manipulation. Definitely hindsight,
of course, it will set you up for it. Basically,
of course it was. It was an opportunity for her
(12:23):
to you know, maybe, and again I'm.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Just sort of speculating me as her mindset. I can't
clarify for sure, but maybe it was her thinking her
and I were getting sort of too close to teetering
on the edge of being caught. Maybe she thought, yeah,
we were teetering on that edge just too closely, so
she wanted to cease it and sort of try to
(12:47):
change the dynamic of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I'm looking through my suspicious mind as a former cop.
I'm thinking what she was setting up there, that the
bullshit that she been telling you for those years, you're
becoming more You're brought into it and actually believing it.
And I would suggest that she'd start to think, well,
I'm never going to be able to cut this off
because you're actually going to start putting on her. Well,
(13:12):
when are we running away to raise our daughter. I
think that she's looked at that there's the safest.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Way to way to get out of that accountability.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
The manipulation of the seat is just despicable, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It's just through the roof. I don't even know another
way to articulate. Gary, It's just such evil, just just
pure evil.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Okay, we're talking.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I've never spoken about that.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
No, Well, I appreciate you with your honesty, and I
think the way that you are explaining the situation that
what's happened to you, people can understand what you've gone through.
Like I'm sitting here and I keep thinking back and
when we took a break of speaking of the producer
and we're talking about you went through all this as
(14:04):
a fifteen year old. What you were dealing with. How
hard that is to process all the emotions and things
that are going through your mind at that stage.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Very very adult situations that are sort of imposed upon
a child. It's a very strange dynamic to be living
that through, and not even adult situations that normal adults
go through as well. It's very toxic and awful.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
No, that's an extreme situation to go through as an
adult with all the things that adulthood prepares you to
deal with the things that happen in life. So you've
come back from the Philippines after that, the dynamics have
changed and you've moved out of.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
The house correct with another relative.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You're back here, sixteen. The sexual abuse with your stepmother
has stopped. You're living in another house. You're keeping a
relationship with your daughter under the pretense that's your sister.
It's your sister. Was there some joy in that? Yeah,
of course, tell us about that, because yeah, we're focused
on the negative. But there's something beautiful in the world
(15:08):
that your daughter's coming with.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
This little girl and is just the light of my life.
And I haven't seen her for many years now. Those
moments that I did have with her were just so
special and just so so lovely and beautiful, and you know,
all I wanted to do, even as a sixteen, seventeen
year old boy, eighteen year old, but just dealing with
(15:32):
this and navigating it, I just wanted to ensure that
she had the best and provide that because I knew
that the life that I was living was chaotic. I
didn't think it was. I felt comfortable in the chaos
because I was privy to it, like that's what I
was exposed to. But I knew it wasn't. I knew
it wasn't what a child should be brought up in.
(15:54):
And even then, I wanted to take on the mantle
of being her father and sort of provide as much
as I possibly could with the means I had at
the time. And she was witty and funny even as
a little girl, and just quick, and I just loved
everything about her. And I cannot wait for the day
(16:17):
that we get to reunite and come back together and
I can explain to her that this wasn't her fault.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
And they explained to her how much you love her
and how special she is in your life. How old
was she when you last saw her?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
She was three? There she turns she turns nine this year.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Okay, that's a lot big part to miss out. Yeah,
I'm sorry you're going going going through that as a
three year old button. You're seeing the personnel that you're
seeing the character they are. So you've got those those men.
I see the smile on their face, so clearly she
she went over a dad. Yes, pretty easy, and she I.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Mean it of it should have, you know, struck a
few chords at the time. But she looked like her
dad too. So I'm glad there's two good looking individuals.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
That's that's great, And I'm glad you can take some
joy from what you've been for you deserve some joy,
so you shouldn't You shouldn't try and hold back on
it now. Of course it's special, and yeah, that sexual
abuse cheated you of something very very special. Yeah, at Tarmi.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It did, it did. And you know, as you were saying,
you know, most parents attribute one of the best days
of their lives as when their kids are first born.
For me, even that part of it was taken stolen
from you. So I just look forward to the day
that I can provide for that little girl and give
her the life that I know she deserves.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, I'm sitting here looking at you and listening to
you as a twenty four year old man. I think
you've got big things ahead of you. So it wouldn't
surprise me if that plays the way it should be,
because I think it's amazing the way that you've come
through such a difficult path.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
So at nineteen, what's your relationship with your father between
the ages of sixteen and nineteen?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Is that strained quite minimal but it operated better at
a distance. It was. It was problematic when we were
sort of under the same roof, and that as I
was saying, you know, because the reason my father and
I where it was was because of the dynamic that
my stepmother put us in. You know, it's the only
(18:36):
way we were like that and still to this day,
why me and my father just because of the dynamic
that my stepmother has put us.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Like you're seeing the manipulation that she was imposed on you.
You can only imagine what game she was playing with
him too.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, so, and you know, for all my father's faults
and he's not the greatest individual in the world, but
I can understand where she has manipulated him and what
she's been putting in his era as well. Yeah, it
just would twist his head as well, So I acknowledge that.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, well that's that's bigger for you to be able
to see that side of it, because she's not going
to just manipulate one person. You're quite right that I
should call it the evil step mother because starting that, Yeah,
she even stooped, not even lower, but another act that
was despicable. And do you want to tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Of course, So at nineteen years of age, so this
would have been twenty nineteen for me, she wanted to
leave my father. The reasons I don't know I wasn't
president in the house, and you know, me being the
sort of co parent of my daughter, you know, I
(19:52):
wanted to ensure that the mother of my child was Okay,
that's my thinking out.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Of time, I understand.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So okay, Well I presented these opportunities, like these ideas,
I said, oh we can. I'm still under this coersion.
I still think I was in a relationship even at nineteen.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, so I hadn't got the help yet. You hadn't
dealt with that. So your emotional growth is stunted from
the time you started getting sexually abused. It hasn't really progressed.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
No, not at this point. And so she wanted to
leave my father. I get a call one day. I'm
in my apartment. I lived by myself at this point.
I get a call from my father saying, oh, can
you go check the house. Can you go check on
(20:42):
your stepmother and the baby, because I've got all these
bank transactions on my thing, and can you just go
check that they're there. I go there and all the
cupboards are, everything's been taken out, everything strips, everything's been
taken She's flown to the Philippines to evade to leave
(21:08):
my father, So she knew that in order for her
to have an opportunity to leave the country, she had
to sort of wave the red flag somewhere else, and
my dad would follow the red because he's likable. So
what she's done is she's sent him an email that
says that I raped her, meaning me, I raped my stepmother.
(21:33):
And then I remember my father forwarding me that email,
and he forwarded it to my biological mother as well,
and then my biological mother called me and said, what's
going on? And then I just was obviously in a
state of I can't I cannot believe what's happened.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Anyway, where do I start again?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So my mother's picked me up and I said, and
she said, Harry, is there anything you need to tell me?
And I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat
of a car. Wasn't looking at my mother, I was
looking straight ahead, And I said, Mum, I was I
engaged in an affair with my step mom behind Dad's back.
And there's a higher possibility that my daughter or my
(22:14):
sister could actually be my daughter. And that's the first
time I ever told someone that's heavy.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah, how did your mum react?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh? Her face dropped when as white as a ghost.
I think there was potentially, and I'm I'm not accusing
her of anything, but there was potentially a feeling that
something was off, but she didn't feel that it went
to that extent. And I think I just confirmed that
sort of off feeling she had about me growing up
in those teenage years, and that sort of dynamic I
(22:44):
had with my stepmother. It was a bit off, but
she could She never, in the wildest imagination thought it
would have gone to that extent.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, So the rape allegation, was it the formal complaint
or was it just a hand grenade frone.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Hand grenade thrown via that email in that in that email?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, And so how did your father deal with your response?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah? So when my mother picked me up, I knew
that I wasn't safe being in my own apartment by myself,
So I went and stayed with mum for a few days.
And that's where me and mom sort of had like
an ongoing conversation because this is blown up for her
as well, and we're sort of trying to dictate what
the best course of action is. And then that's where
my mother went and approached my father and had a
(23:32):
conversation with him and said, this has happened. I need
you to you know, and that dynamic was sort of settled.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, when did she say in the in the email
when you supposedly raped her, was that it was just
a broad just cause causes a drama. Yeah, your relationship
with your father at that point in time, did you
tell him after you told your mother what happened?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I wanted to avoid it, but it got to a
point where he came over to the house and sort
of wanted to instigate a discussion to sort of make
sense of what the hell happened. It was presented that
this was many years in the possibility that or the
very highly likely chance that my sister's actually my daughter.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So when you adjusted with him on that occasion, did
he accept it?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
It was honestly to his credit, and I don't like
to give him credit that much, but it was. It
was quite It was just taken with a sense of
shock and a sense of just that dynamic that we
were talking about before, where like like he thought that
I engaged in it, and he went, oh, just like
(24:43):
it was really interesting point in time where it wasn't reactive.
It was just he was actually.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Quite it's sobered him trying to the full.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And then he went away and then sort of obviously
there's been a thing where she's gotten in his about
what happened because he's been presented with facts, he's obviously
taking it to her. She's shown her side of it,
and he's changed his viewpoint since then.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
As in taking her side. Yeah, she's a master manipulator,
isn't she?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
She is? Indeed.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I just want to read something about this is one
of the interviews you've done about the impact it had
on you, and I think it sort of encapsulates what
you were going through. I'd got to a point where
I wanted to take my own life. I was twenty,
my daughter had been taken from me, I was falsely
accused of rape. I had the memories of what had
happened to me as a child. That's a lot for
(25:41):
someone to take on board. I got to the point
where I just couldn't handle it. So that's a fairly
honest account. And this is so you were saying nineteen
when the allegation, So you're talking here twenty do you
want to just explain what was going through? Just were
you overwhelmed with everything, that you lost your daughter, your
daughter had gone the Philippines, you've got the issue with
(26:02):
your father, you've been accused of rape. Lives. Yeah, pretty shit.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's not great. I mean in that quote you read that,
it's pretty much just how it was. I mean, for me,
the most devastating consequence of this abuse carry has been
losing my daughter and I still haven't seen her to
this day from that point that she left in twenty nineteen.
But just you lose your daughter, you're falsely accused of rape,
(26:30):
you'll come into the realization that what actually happened to
you was not a relationship, it was an abuse. It
was blatant abuse and a total stripping of your teenage
years and childhood. And that's when I entered a mental
health facility at twenty because I came up with the
plan to end my life on a Friday, and I said,
(26:51):
I'm going to have my final weekend and I was
going to do it on the Monday. I remember going
out the Friday and the Saturday night just took was drinking,
took anything I could, and got to the point on
Sunday where I sort of had like this vision of
my mother finding me and I couldn't deal with that.
I couldn't I didn't want to put her through that.
(27:12):
So there was actually on the same road that I
lived on, there was a mental health clinic and I
checked myself in that Sunday evening before the Monday. I
was going to carry through the plan that I had, well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
To get to that, to get to that point, to
even contemplate that, yeah, what you're going through, it was
just overwhelmed. And is that that low point was because
you came to the realization that you had been abused.
The whole way that you've been looking at your life
was delusional up until that point, with the relationship and
everything else, and it all just caught up with you.
(27:48):
Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So my mother between that year of nineteen when they
fled and twenty of where I got into the mental
health ward, my mother, you know, really really urged me
to go get getzo therapy. Yeah, and they really did
assist me with coming to that realization that what happened
(28:08):
was not a relationship, it was sexual abuse. And that's
quite it's very confronting, and it just it drove me
to that point where I didn't want to be here anymore.
And I needed more extensive help to assist me through
that period, and it was the best decision I ever
made going to that mental health facility, because it really
gave me the tools to one articulate what I went through.
(28:30):
It gave me the language to actually explain what I
was going through, and hindsight's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Right, Yeah, but with hindsight, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
But it also gave me the tools to navigate the
trauma if it ever came up again. So I was
in that mental health ward for about two months.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
And clearly, the way you're talking about it, it was
beneficial for you.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, undoubtedly it was single handedly one of the best
decisions I've ever made.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah. Do you think if you went early on that
you could have addressed the same situation or did you
need that life experience in that age and that wisdom
to deal with it at that point in time.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I just don't think it was a possibility for me,
Gary to go before that point, because I was just
under such coercion and just such manipulation and such a
facade of what I was told, like a relationship was
presented to me, and that's all I knew.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I understand what you're saying. I think you're basically saying, well,
it was a relationship. We all have problems in relationships,
and this was just so I was going through a
relationship situation and it didn't you hadn't dawned on you. No,
this was not a relationship. Not abuse.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, not at all, not until that point. I've seen
those therapists for that year and then getting to a
point where it really dawned on me and the weight
of it all, especially losing my daughter like that, that
really plagued me, and it just got it. It all
came to a head.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
That's another level that adds to the trauma is the daughter.
And it's clear the way you speak about your daughter,
the love that you've got for her and the impact
that she's had on your life.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Undoubtedly.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
So you've come out, two months, you spent getting help,
you came out. But I would imagine, and I'm just
saying this, I'm not sure you clarify it. I would
imagine that doesn't mean you walk out in your heel
and the problem's gone. You still live with it daily.
You just have the tools to address exactly right.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, I mean you've articulated that perfectly. It's you don't
come out and you know all is good. You come
out and you're you're sort of continuing to navigate it,
but you've just got the proper tools to assist you
in navigating it. Because it's it's quite quite an ordeal
that I have to say, it's the understatement of the
(30:52):
year probably yeah, yeah, but it's quite an ideal that
I've got to navigate and to have that assistance and
to have that support, and to know that I can
always go back to that as well. I have that
safety net behind me no matter what happens. That's a
real privilege that I possess.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
It's something that you have in your back pocket, isn't it.
If you need to need to pull it out, you
know there's a way to get help which will hopefully
stop your spiraling or feeling like that you're on your own.
So how did life look to you after you came out.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I remember coming out as twenty twenty and I just
had this little bit little bit of hope. You know,
there was a little bit of light at the end
of the tunnel. Wasn't perfect, but there was a little
bit of light at the end of the tunnel, and
you know, I was sort of coming to terms with
the fact that I didn't really identify as a survivor
(31:48):
or anything that's about that, But I just didn't really
I was coming to terms with what happened and just
trying to articulate my experiences and sort of navigate that.
And then in twenty twenty one, Grace Tame One Australia
the year and I saw an individual who went through
something similar on the national stage and that was a
(32:11):
real poignant moment for me to see that. And then
it's sort of just instilled in me that I think
I have the tools and the wherewithal to advocate in
my own way as well. I didn't know what that
looked like at the time, but I knew that I
wanted to help people. And it wasn't until a couple
(32:33):
of years until I actually publicly spoke about my story
for the first time, until twenty twenty two. But throughout
those throughout those few years, you know, just navigating it
and just making sure I was okay before I could
help other people.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Okay, it's interesting you mentioned the Grace and the type
of things that you're doing here. I've got to say, Grace,
when she was here in the studio was one of
the most impressive people I've had the pleasure to interview.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I was scared she came in because she's pretty pretty intimidating,
but had a lot of fun and the way she
articulated things. And I think it's great that the stance
that Grace took and the impact that's had on it
helped you, and I think the type of stuff that
you're doing now can help you as well.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, it not only helped me, helped countless individuals across
this country that couldn't didn't have the courage to come forward.
And that's not a bad thing upon them, but they
just needed to see that. And what Grace did was
she forged that path, you know, you know she ran
(33:36):
so I could walk today with the advocacy that I
that I'm able to do. You know, I stand on
the shoulders of giants, of people like Grace and other
individuals who have come before me. So I really like
to acknowledge that in opportunities like this, when when I
get asked that question of what your story was like,
because it really was upon your moment. For me, it
(33:56):
changed my life to see her when that award and
say the speech she did.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, it was powerful in so many ways. And I
think with people like Grace speaking up about situations like that.
I had the pleasure of working with Madeline West on
the podcast series called Predatory where she came out about
her child's sexual abuse. And again it's so powerful. And
the work that Andrew Carpenter does, Shane Rattenberry, politician from Queensland,
(34:23):
all these people are out there making a difference. Russell
Manser survivory piece, Yeah, sadly passed away, but he was
carrying a lot of pain from the sexual abuse he
suffered in institutions. And I've got to say that I
had no idea the impact that it has on the
criminal world, the amount of people that have been through
(34:45):
sexual abuse and then have gone down the wrong path.
And I'm talking you know, some serious hardcore crooks, bikis
and that that carry the pain of being victims of
child sexual abuse. So for each and every one of
you speaking out, I think it makes difference. And I
see there's an honor having this platform to allow people
like yourself come on and tell your stories.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Well, thank you very much, And I couldn't agree more
individuals like this, They change the discourse of the of
the national conversation, and it's important that we as society
as a community, and you're leading by example in doing that,
by honoring that and by understanding that these are actually
(35:27):
courageous and brave things to share these stories.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
You know, it's not about you know, that's right, and
that's deeply personal, and you've got to expose a little
bit of yourself and that makes you feel vulnerable coming
out and talking about your emotions and what you went through.
But no, I think each and every one of you
are extremely courageous in the way that you approach it.
Thank you in regards to your advocacy. Yes, let's talk
(35:51):
about that. Let's get angry on the couple of things.
The reference. Yeah, if you could explain that. Then we
spoke briefly. PEP who have listened to the podcast would
have heard as raise the fact that people who have
been charged of sexually abusing children shouldn't be given the
luxury of having the reference as to good character character reference.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah. Correct. So in May of twenty twenty three, so
I came out with my story publicly for the first time.
In twenty twenty two, and I sort of knew that
I wanted to get involved with legislative reform because I
knew it had a huge impact on people's lives, and
I knew I wanted to get involved in that, but
I didn't know where it sort of lied or sort
(36:32):
of how I was going to navigate it. So I
spent a year just sort of really building my connections
within the space. I'd attend you know, talks and seminars
and all that, and sort of just build connections. And
so when I knew I wanted to pursue legislative change,
I would you have people that could support me through that.
And this thing of good character references just always irked
(36:55):
me as such, such an injustice. How can you be
of character and commit that type of crime. It's ridiculous,
defeat the purpose. So when I spoke out as a
survivor of child sexual abuse and wanted to change the
laws surround pertaining to child sexual abuse, I said, surely
(37:15):
there's no way that good character references are allowed for
these types of criminals. There's surely no way. And I
went through the legislation and was researching and researching, and
lo and behold, I find this sort of strange quirk
in the law. And right now, what the current legislation
is doing is it's prohibiting certain individuals, certain child sex offenders,
(37:37):
from using good character references, but it's allowing a whole
other class of individuals to do it. And the reason
it's like that was because the current law was introduced
by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
So at the moment, the individuals that are prohibited from
using good character references are the teachers, the scoutmasters, the
(37:57):
religious leaders, anyone who has out with good standing in
the community had and utilize that outward good standing to
facilitate the crime. But gary there's a whole other class
of individuals that are still allowed to use these good
character references, the stepmothers, the neighbors, the grandparents, the older brothers,
the cousins, whatever it is. But our argument is that
(38:21):
good standing, it's a cultivated and very calculated and deceitful
good character that they cultivate that still allows them to
facilitate that crime. And right now, in courts, in the sentencing,
so this is the back end of courts, So they've
already gone through a trial, a judges found them more
one hundred percent guilty of committing this crime, and then
(38:42):
they come back in the sentencing and they're getting these
discounts essentially discount character because of their good character, but
they're getting discounts on their sentences for the very thing
that allowed them to facilitate the crime and commit the crime.
So we're trying to extend the current legislation to encapsulate
that category of offender as well, so no child sex
(39:04):
offender can utilize a good character reference in the sense
in procedure of court. And last year, in May of
twenty twenty three, my campaign partner and I, Jared Grice,
we started the hashtag your reference Ain't Relevant campaign and
we started in our home state of New South Wales
because we live here. We got involved and in touch
(39:28):
with the Attorney General here in New South Wales, Attorney
General Michael Daily. He initiated a review. The first review,
you know, it resulted in total polarity from advocates and
people who agreed with us and the legal community. So
then we came back and Michael Daily, thank god he did,
(39:49):
he started he instigated a second review with the New
South Wales Sensing Council, which is currently underway, and he
took it to the Standing Council of Attorney's General's meeting,
which is the national meeting where all the ags of
Attorney Generals from each jurisdiction come together to discuss national
consistency when it comes to lawa form and that pretty
(40:11):
much put us, single handedly put us on the national map.
And this was something that was a relative obscurity. No
person knew that a pedophile could use a good character reference.
Now it's a core tenant of the national conversation because
of the work that we've done, and we've been able
to meet with the Attorney generals from each state in
(40:31):
jurisdiction and we're continuing to meet more.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Well, full credit to you for making that difference, and
so people understand what we're dealing with. And you articulated
very clearly pedophiles manipulate. That's how they build a trust.
So to have someone coming in and saying, oh, well,
look this person that was babysitting our children, they would
always help. They'd come over and always offer to babysit
(40:57):
the kids. That's not good character. That is basically put
in the fact sheet. If I'm a cop, I'm putting
that in the fact sheet, that's showing the tendency to
create that environment where they can pray on people. So
little things like that make a difference. And like you
chip away, and I know how hard it is to
change legislation and the resistance that comes from the legal
fraternity and everything it's enshrined. It's hard, but that's the
(41:20):
way we've always done it. Oh, you don't understand. And
when you're trying to push changes in legislation, it's a battle.
But full credit to you that you're getting it getting
it to this stage.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And look, Jared
and I and we have fantastic advocates that have come forward.
You know, we've built this campaign and we understand that
we have a responsibility to allow other abuse survivors to
share their story. So we have a gentleman in the
act by the names of Josh Burns. He shares his story.
He's a fantastic individual. In South Australia, we have a
(41:53):
Alyssa James who shares her story incredibly, just so bravely,
just purely in the pursuit of change and wanting to
make a difference. And it's really, really really important that
we that the courts incorporate and understanding of how this
crime operates, because as you said, there, you know, this
(42:14):
is a good character. It is a weapon amongst their
arsenal of deceit. It's part of the crime, and the
courts have to understand that and encapsulate that in the sentence.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I like saying, an armed robber that's got a bellaclava.
Yeah exactly. I think, let's it's.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
So ludicrous and backwards and we just need to get
on the front foot of it and change it. And
that's that's where my advocacy lies. It's where the good
character references.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
That's okay, that's my thing. Keep pushing for it. The
fact that you've connected with so many people that have
got shared experiences, is that helpful for you?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Of course? And just to see you know, I have
a friend named Anna and she's a survivor as well,
and you know, I get asked all these questions, how
do you how do you deal with you know, survivors
that are constantly telling you their stories, like it must
be hard to hear these stories all the time, and
to an extent it is. And you know, there's a
thing called vicarious trauma. But my friend Anna, who's just amazing,
(43:17):
she says, Harry, perception and mindset is so important, and
you can view these stories as giving you vicarious trauma,
or you can change that mindset and you can look
at these survivors and you can think, my god, they're
standing here on two feet after the adversity of they're faced,
and there they're and they're pursuing these beautiful lives and
doing these great things. That's vicarious resilience, and that's how
(43:41):
I choose to view it now. Vicario is resilience. So
it's something to see a survivor speaking about their story
and coming forward so bravely and courageously and sharing their
lived experience purely because they want to ensure that it
doesn't happen to another kid. That builds me up. So
it's it's sort of selfish why I do what I do,
but it really does build me up.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
No, Well, you've every right to draw on those strengths.
And I think when you refer to survivor a child
sexual abuse, I think during this podcast, I've made reference
to victims of child sexual abuse, and I've been pulled
up on that before because the way you sity. You
are a survivor, it's something to be proud. And the
other people I've spoken to a survivors and they're warriors
(44:22):
in their own way. They've overcome things that no child
should have to go to. So it's something that you
should be proud of. What other things that you got
going on in your life?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, So I do the advocacy. I go around the country.
I have the privilege of being able to speak. I
get to do incredible opporneies like this. I have a
I think called a substack account, so I write articles
and people are more than welcome to engage and subscribe
to that.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
How does that work and how can they access that?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, so it's a web page. It's called Harrison James
Activism Unfiltered and it's just me being able to express
my thought and sort of give my thought provoking commentary
on situations. And yeah, they can go to substack dot
it's Harry James dot com and sort of subscribe to
be a part of those articles and read up on them.
(45:12):
But also social media is a big thing for me
as well. And that's essentially how the campaign that your
reference Ain't relevant campaign, That's how it's been able to
get to the point that it's at now because of
the social media and just sort of people are able
to engage, and yeah, the impact of it, it's been
really remarkable. And never in a million years do I
(45:33):
think you know the kid that was going through what
he did at thirteen and fourteen fifteen years old would
go on to be a voice and be quite a
not blow smoke up my own ass, but quite quite
a big voice.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
A powerful, powerful voice. And I keep having to check
myself that you're twenty four years old, But you did
say during the podcast that you had your maturity went
exponentially because of the speriences you've got. And I'm sitting
here opposite a person that's speaking with so much wisdom
that's way beyond twenty four years. So like, keep up
and keep up the good work. Thank you your daughter,
(46:11):
future hopes plans. Do you hope to at some stage
reconnect with your daughter? I know in one of the
many articles I've read about you, you've said you have
to check yourself time and time again not to get
on the plane and go over there and see her,
but again for the person that you are, the quality
of the person that you are, you've said that you
(46:33):
don't want to cause confusion in her life at such
an early age where she's not ready to deal with it.
So talk us through your hopes about the future there.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, of course, I hope more than anything that I'll
be able to reunite with my daughter. It's such a
it's imperative that I do, you know, because it's interesting.
I've been stripped of a daughter, and you know I
talk about that quite a bit. But also at the
end of the day, Gary, that little girl's been stripped
of a father as well, and she'll never get those
(47:04):
years back because of what my stepmother decided to do.
And it's the shame and the guilt. It falls squarely
at my stepmother's feet. And I hope that one day.
You know, my daughter turns nine this year. It's there's
never going to be a right time to have this conversation,
but right now is the least right time. It's not
(47:28):
appropriate for me, as you said. You know, I've said
in articles before. You know, I fight the urge every
single morning to get that first flight to the Philippines
to pick her right back up and bring her home
to safety where I know she's going to be safe
with me. But if I go over there that confusion
that I'm going to impose upon her. There's already been
one childhood that's been corrupted. I want to ensure as
(47:50):
a father that I do everything in my power to
impose the least amount of pain upon my daughter this
with this situation that neither her or I ask for.
So I really hope that there's a day where, you know,
she'll and if she's anything like her father, she'll ask
questions and she'll be curious and want to find out.
(48:10):
And I not only do I hope, but I know
that there will be a day where we reunite because
I'm going to ensure that it happens because it's really
important to me that I'm able to establish a connection
with her, and I hope that's reciprocated on her. And
you know, I don't know what she's been told or
(48:33):
or will be told in the in the period of
time that I don't see her, But all I can
hope is that she she and I can come can
reunite and come together with an understanding of what's happened
and an empathy. And I just hope that I can
educate her on that and assist her through through her
own trauma that she's inevitably going to face. By coming
(48:54):
to terms with this, It's going to be very traumatic
for that girl, and I recognize that, and as a
father and someone who has been through pain myself, I
want to be able to help her navigate that. And
I hope that day comes.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Well, just the way that you've described that. I think,
hang on to a recording of what you just said
in the last five minutes and send that to your
daughter at the right stage, and she'll know how much
she is loved and how special a father is. So
I think you'll get that message across. And there's something
about you, there's that X factor that I think, yeah,
(49:30):
things will work out. And I want to say this
in wrapping up. I'm just it's people like you that
inspire me, like people that have experienced situations and that
just come through the resilience and the way that you've
come through and the balance view that you've got on
what's happened and the way that you accepted. I think
(49:51):
anyone that listens to your story will be inspired, shocked
by what you've been through, but also inspired and educated.
So the work that you're doing. Get out there to
as many people and speak to as many people as
you can, because I think you've got a really powerful
message that is making a difference.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Thank you, Garry. That means the world. And just to
have the opportunity to come on here and share that message,
it means the world. And you're doing phenomenal work by
allowing individuals like me to come on here and share
those stories. So again, just a debt of gratitude to
thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
It's an honor.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
All the best, Thank you, cheers.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
I know the world's a good place when you have
someone like Harrison James advocating for survivors as child's sexual abuse.
What he went through was horrendous, But the way he's
come through and the way he articulates his own experience
and the help that he's trying to provide others by
talking about this hideous crime, I think is inspirational. I
really enjoyed sitting down having to chat with him, and
(50:51):
I just found him a fascinating person and what a
great outlook he has on life.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Nine
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