May 12, 2025 • 58 mins
Daniel Morcombe was just 13 when he was abducted and murdered by Peter Brett Cowan. Years earlier, retired detective Daren Edwards arrested the pedophile for heinous crimes against another young boy in the Northern Territory. He also takes Gary behind the scenes of his viral crash tackle moment during a press conference and shares the cases that will never leave him.
WATCH the viral moment of Daren crash tackling a man here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
In part two of my chat, we've retired Detective Senior
Sergeant Darren Edwards. We talk about how he became an
Internet sensation, his involvement in the arrest of Daniel Morkham's
killer Brett Cowen, other murder investigations he was involved in,
and he's time working as an investigator on the War crimes.
We talk about a lot of things, all related to policing,
(01:09):
and as you will hear Darren is the type of
detective you want on your case. He's one of the
good guys. Darren. I was going to wait till after
or towards the end of this part two to show
you this, but I can't help myself and I want
to get it out now, so I thought stuff it.
You know, I'm a detective. If you're a detective, you
know you prepare for the interview room, and consider this
(01:30):
an interview room. I'm now going to play you Exhibit A,
and I want you to comment on that. After I've
played this. You're not obliged to say anything or do
anything unless you wish to do so. But whatever you
say or do may later be used in evidence. Do
you understand that I understand that? Okay, Exhibit A or there's.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Damage there, I'm not one hundred percent on that.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yes, you were you cover the cover? All right, Darren?
Where do I start with that? What we just witness there?
I'll describe what I saw and then you can offer
explanation and remember your under caution here and if you
(02:21):
if you're listening to this and you want to watch
Darren's classic tackle, go to the Eye Catch Killer's YouTube
channel and you can see it. You're in the middle
of a live TV interview and the commotion you hear
in the background is someone running. Obviously app's been up
to no good. You, in a split second have turned
(02:42):
looked process and decided to launch yourself in what I'd
say is as a state of origin style tackle and
just belted this blake into the ground. You tell That's
what I observed, Darren. I still to this day think
it was one of the most impressive pieces of police
I've ever seen, and also one of the most funniest.
(03:02):
Talk us through what happened there.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, Like I think it was a bit of a
like a natural type of reaction, Like I played football
for many years and it's someone's running, and you know,
what are you going to do? And he could have
gone past, And like it was only split second before
I actually tackled him. I realized who he was because
you come and interrupted that press conference which was about
(03:26):
a fraud matter, I think by memory earlier and anyway,
But to me, it was just like instinct, Like it's
not all that clear, but when I was listening, when
I was doing the interview, I could hear this comments
from the father in the background to work before you
can really hear it on the mics. I could hear
(03:48):
what was going on in the background, and then all
of a sudden, you've got an offender running. And it
was just an instinct, to be honest, I'm just going
to stop this guying old tackling. That's the only way
I know. It was always tackled away. I was very,
very fair type of footballer girl. I was tackled like anyway.
So that's how it happened. But as I said, even
(04:09):
you play it from the whole thing. He'd come and
interrupted the press conference earlier.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
How dare you interrupt your press conference?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And I realized he had a few issues and anyway,
he because I remember looking at his charge sheet and
I realized he got out of court or whatever, and
I had a look at his charge. When you see
he charges, you know that makes sense. You're a public nuisance.
But I didn't realize it was the same guy until
I was just about.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Exactly as you're flying me there.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I suppose I'm just there
in my suit and I hadn't been footy training for
a while, and he's running and I'm going to tackle him,
and it's funny. I had the blood you notice on
my head was I'd actually had a couple of sun
skin cancers burned off only a day or so before,
so all the blisters. So when my skin rubbed on
(04:59):
his pants or tackling, that's what that That's what that was.
I mean, I didn't hurt myself or anything, and I
haven't that There was a garden bed there they cleaned
out in front of that. It was kind of on
the edge of that. And I know I had dirt
and mud on the back of my suit. And I
even took the suit the dry cleaners. They wouldn't charge me.
I wanted to do it and take fart as of
the suit. It was quite funny.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, a couple of questions that flow on from that.
Did you go back to your press conference.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I wouldn't finish the press I didn't think a lot
about it, And you know, one of the bosses, uniform inspectors,
we say, are you are right? So I just went
and carried on my carroll on my day, you know.
And then when I was finishing work, I walked out
the front and Channel seven reporter, the main guy that
did was doing the fraud conference. He's out the front
(05:47):
and he suit with a tie on, doing this press conference.
And I said him, what's going on? Is this something
else going on? And he says, oh, I know today
that's bigger than anything, you know. Really Anyway, I went
home then I realized had a miscor from my sister
who I went to her wedding in Italy years you know,
a couple of years before. And then I got home
(06:10):
my party said, so what happened today? Nothing really, just
I don't think anything of it. I just sort there
was some you know, some peanut run around upsetting, you know,
and I do it does anyone that interferes or tries upset? Yeah?
Attack or you know, I got two daughters. Women should
(06:32):
able to go around the street with getting some grub,
making comments about their short skirt and all the rest
of it and things like that, which he was doing
as I found out, and that, you know, whilst the
father yelling out and something about the girl and a
bloke running. That's enough for me. That was my brain
(06:52):
reaction and a tackling. I just didn't realize it was
going to have the effect that it did.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Well, you're a very humble hum What I liked about
it was the processing. You're clearly not a ditherer in police,
because in policing we get a lot of people that
dither a little bit. You in a split second or
a millisecond said okay, offender running Darren, must tackle, and
you've gone and you've launched yourself. The reaction after it,
(07:21):
you went viral, and I think you end up doing
conferences about your tackle and getting critiqued on your tackling side.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I did. But I look, even one morning I had
to do from Good Morning America some Prague in one
morning because I remember this guy from the Territor and
he won't mind me saying his name, Hughsy Jeff Hughs
used to work in the territory, used to smash men tennis.
But anyway, he's a very fit, tall where he's lived
in the States for years. Anyway, he's saying I got
(07:50):
stuff from him on Facebook and he saw that morning program,
and you know, they just loved that. They said, I
know this guy, but it's just wol I just couldn't
believe it. But the main point I was sorry I
was getting out was that that should be a copper's
reaction for someone who's hassling some female on the street
(08:12):
that that should be the reaction. I heard enough I
processed in my mind and for him running, he was,
I don't play grabs, you I never played grabs, and well,
that's what I'm going to do tackling. You've chased enough offenders.
You get talking to him, you know they're going to
cut for it, and exactly and they can't run without legs,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's that's the and the state of origin hero. While
we lewis critiquing your tackling, So what was his opinion.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
On I got a call from t GB mister Hadley
having to talk about it, and then then he said
to me, oh, by the way, Wally said, you got
your head in the wrong place, and I thought, oh,
I'm sorry, I'm in my suitor. Wasn't It wasn't like
a front rower running up to me in the line
of defense, you know, tackling the sprinting Hungarian. And from
(09:01):
the sides, I thought it had a pretty good job.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
If that's the only thing you ever achieved in your
policing career, you could retire, retire happy because, as I said,
I think it's a classic. I'm just going to ask
this question. Do you joggers safe if they're running past you?
Can you process it? You're not liking the tack dog.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It's funny every now and I get comments and I'm
walking recently and I was working in Brisbane. I was
walking in the street and someone someone was running past,
and I heard these guys talk me high and they
turned about too young blake from homicide and they go,
don't tackling, mate. It's funny, and then you get sized up.
(09:39):
I remember like being in Dan Murphy's one day and
I saw this guy was stalking me and he's a
big kiwi guy and then he circles around and I've
got my little basket full of wine and he comes
up and he says, you're that guy, aren't you. I
don't know if it was some offence or something. I said,
that was a good tackle man, and then he just
walks off. But you just don't know. And this is
(10:01):
years later. It's funny how people recognize you what it is,
but look at it. It gave people some enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Well, what I liked about it. It strips down the
most basic thing. When you joined the cops, good versus evil,
and you were the good guy you and there was
a bad guy and bang it's done. Did you ever
consider what would have happened if you missed the tackle?
I'll point out, I wouldn't have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Our district superintendent, he said, and what if you had
a missed And I said, that just made me feel sick,
And I actually I wake up one night with Pat
saying in my head, nothing I heard. This didn't happen,
And yeah, yeah, no one would have wanted I would
have been the laughing stock.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
You wouldn't. You wouldn't be here I have. I'd probably
have Howard Hickey here instead.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's a fair, fair question. But well I'm glad that
I didn't miss many tackles. I have to say for myself,
I had a pretty good strike right as a forward.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Good on you. You deserve to talk it up. But yeah,
it was great and I think all jokes aside. I
think it typifies the type of cop that you roll
up your sleeves and just get in there and do
your job. Okay, that's the lighthearted situation. I want to
take us back to a crime that people all across
(11:26):
Australia for me, with the abduction and murder of Daniel Morecambe.
He was thirteen years of age at the time. We
talked in part one about your involvement in locking up
the person that was eventually convicted of Daniel Morcambe's murder,
and he's currently in prison. You locked him up when
you're working in the Northern Territory for a very serious,
(11:48):
serious crime. He did his time in prison, got out
and then it led to what happened to Daniel, which
was horrific and I think it touched everyone in the country.
Tell us about your involvement in that investigation, just from
your observations and your involvement in it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, Look, as I said, i'd come from the Northern Territory.
I can remember getting old on the old computer system
that was there at the time and putting his name
because when he was arrested up in the territory, I
knew come from Sunshine Coast area, so did I originally,
and so I remember printing out where he lived and
later on it did service that the information we got
(12:30):
he driven pass, so he was connected there and that
was when I was a homicide and I went up
there working on that job for the time. As time
went on, obviously went onto other investigations. But then later
on in twenty eleven, I got the role there at
the Sunshine Coast as ICSIB. Some work had been done
(12:50):
progressing on him and as it turned out, they were
able to get him back to the coast. And I
think it was in Augut eleven. It was down in
the forestry area or the bush area there and he
was arrested.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
And the circumstances is coming there and I think people
were aware of there was an undercover office credit involved
in it, and you were hiding the bush or covertly
in the in the bush. What was the purpose of
Cohen going to that location?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The covits have got him there because he was purportedly
be part of this gang and ire worried that people
knew who he was. So if he got some focus
again on him, it would draw attention to that group
he was mixing with supposedly criminal crime Green and they
wanted some guarantees that was no there was no obvious
(13:49):
remains going to be able to be seen or found.
So he was coaxing going to that location. And he
gave the indication there was an embankment and he'd said
I tossed the boy over here.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And so he was. He was actually showing where the
cover place where the body body was. Daniel's body was.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
In the Glasshouse Mountains area there and as it turned out,
decision was made to arrest him there on that spot.
Later on a lot of good work by the SEES
local a S has put amount of time into that
area and the remains unfortunately, well fortunately or unfortunately were
found of Daniel very quickly and that firmed up that
(14:32):
he'd taken him there and it actually killed him in
a small demandable. That demand of was actually gone, but
it was moved and it was actually put behind another
house in Landsborough that it was used being used, so
it was of no forensic value by things have been
cleaned out, repainting all the rest of it, but it
(14:55):
fit in the scene and the fact he took them
to that spot of acres of for him to be
able to take to that spot and gay I chucked
his body over there. It didn't take long to find.
I think we found his skateboard shoes initially and there
was some bones and that was happened fairly quickly, so
that was good. But once you know it's funny to
(15:18):
be it's not funny, but it's unusual for me to
have been involved his arrest in nineteen ninety three, go
to homicide and later on, oh I see there. It's
a full circle manager for that supposedly for that job
going on there a homicide, was running it and everything
with the locals, detectives, and then being there when he's
(15:38):
arrested that many years later for a climb and he
talks about strangling him and that's what he did to
that little boy and Matthew in Dahn. So it was
a really unusual set of circumstances.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
How did it feel for you personally seeing him being
arrested that all being present during his arrest for Daniels.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I think a good outcome, you know, not the best
outcome of the one of the sunback for the Morcambe,
but we talked about earlier that's it brings an outcome,
and when he was convicted, even better and all that
information in the inquest come out about the incident of
the territory. We were pretty annoyed that they hadn't run
with charging with attempted murder and you know a lot
(16:21):
of the guys said, you know, things might have been
different if it had been serving eight to nine years
for tempted murder in Darwin. Yeah, Daniel might not happen.
It's a stretch of the bow, I know. But a
lot of police they have that attitude and maybe the
morcams do too. But at least there was some type
of satisfaction that he was court convicted and Daniel's remains
(16:46):
were like it And that's what I talk about. We
talked about Jessica Goudy. That's the importance of finding those
persons remains is very important for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Brett Town, how long was he sense? For what did he?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
He got sentence of life imprisonment and there's a lot
of changes to her around life imprisonment now. But I
could never I think they're recommendations. No, probably I could
never see him ever getting pro.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, oh that's justifiable. It is a horrible, horrible crime.
Denise and Bruce Malcombe, He's parents. They were tireless in
trying to get justice.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Weren't they They were?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, and still heavily involved. And you see the toilet
that takes on people like that. That's the nature of homicide.
Have you got any cases and then you spend a
long time in homicide cases that stick with stick with you.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah. I just think sometimes you come across case and
they're just needless, like homicide, they're just needless. One people said,
I was anything that stick in your mind that you
saw that has an effect, and the one one does
And it's a scene where you think this isn't real
and it's a fairly simple scene. And I think it
was two thousand and eight, and this is another needless murder.
(18:02):
We're working on. An old guy. He was a truck
driver from I think Twilma Dolby area. He retires. His
interests is grayhounds. He buys his property near Kibulcher and
it's got a kennel's for grayhand it's a bit of
a training track. That's his hobby. His wife had died
of cancer and I know in his bedroom he had
(18:23):
his wife's favorite dress and it used to hang there
every day. That's when he woke up he saw his
wife's favorite dress. Anyway, how long story short, he bought
this property. Unbeknown to him, a drug dealer used to
own it beforehand and had secreted drugs in walls. These
crooks go, they think the drug dealer is still there.
Getting there cost him one of the fellows. I'll say
(18:46):
his name. He's doing life for murder. Rocky Coombs shoots
him in the head. Well, there was just needless. They
had the wrong person. This pile man in his retirement
doing his hobby, gets murder in his home. Now we're
up there at Kucher working on that at the time,
and it was New Year's I'm pretty sure it was
Newye's day. Get a phone calls there looks like a
(19:07):
kid's being murdered at Briby Island, which is down the Raid.
And I go there and I go it's a house
that was rendered for as a holiday house. I walk
in the room the scenes of crime guy and what
on the bed is this ten year old girl. She
had all her hair hacked and cut back, and she's
just laying there with a huge knife out of her chest,
(19:29):
just lying there's still with this big knife and I'm
looking at it and on scenes of crime and I said,
it doesn't look real, you know. As it turned out,
the father of that child had bad mental health issues
and got caught later and murder. The girl had some
you know, thinking she's a demon and all this type
of stuff, but that you know, when you're doing a
(19:49):
senseless murder. And then you get to see that within
days later once we've sold it because we had sold
the other one, and then you go and see that
kid lying there with a knife of that, you think, well,
what the hell is that? You know? And I suppose that.
I don't think I've had a lot of things that
affect me, but it's there's some things that I think.
(20:10):
And then the other thing I did when I was
in the territory, there was these people are being in
a dobeman that was vicious and no one could get
near that. It was like an acre block. They bamused
and left this poor dog there was emaciated. RSPCA couldn't
get near it. They were trying to dart it, but
it was just too vicious, and then we had to
shoot it. Not to shoot this dog dead, but I thought, well,
(20:30):
assholes do that to an animal, you know, then the
coppers have to come and shoot the porn Almy was
doing nothing wrong. You know. It seems such a vast
extremity of incidents that stick in your head, but it's bizarre.
But there's things like that, and I one thing, it's
if I see someone being cruel to a dog, I
really stop and crop and if they don't stop, I'll
(20:53):
say something. You know, it's funny, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's funny things that stick with you. But the way
that you described that, I underst seeing where you're coming from.
Like with homicide, sometimes you get there, just deal with
a job, but it accumulates and you think that's a
waste of time. And I had I had periods of
time in my career too when the fan and ring
and you think, I don't want to go out and
(21:15):
just see zee someone dead. But that that was the
that was the nature of the work. You spent a
long time in homicide. But then you went to yeah,
well you've paid your dues because you've worked in some
tough places. But you ended up on the Sunshine Case.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I certainly as to get told I had the best
job in Queensland.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, And I used to tell people that don't wait
for the job to be advertised, you just locked yourself
And I did. I spent I think ten nearly ten
nearly eleven years.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
There And what was your what was your role there?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah? I was the IC in charge of the Sunshine
Case CB. It's a pretty big area. You had CBS
at Clownder and amble Roochie Door Nusa Kwana, so you
had a big area and we had a good team
and it's a busy place. It's a very busy, big
tourist influx, but a very supportive community and I think
(22:09):
that's still today. And that part of that media stuff there,
I used to do it a lot because those young journals,
that's their business. They need stuff. And I thought it
was a good way to tell the community or here
we've arrested this guy, or we need your help with this.
This is an outcome. Please don't scams are happening. You know,
I don't listen to these phone calls.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It was a way of working with the community, which
was as I said, was and I think it still
is a good supportive community of police.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So that was well. I think the media should be
looked at as a tool that supports and enhances personally
sending messages out, giving them warnings, giving the confidence that yeah,
the police are on top of this. It's an important role.
But the beauty of that position not it only is
a good location, but you've got to keep your hand
in criminal investigation and in part experits on people there.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Look and look part of that, and I said, there
was quite a You know, sexual offenses occur, happens in
every community, but I just like to see an outcome
for that as soon as possible. You know you're going
to have sexual assaults, and some of them are through
There wasn't a lot of sexual assaults like where people
are just attack walking down the street, but you want
(23:25):
them not to happen as well. And when we did
clear up an older sexual assault matter through DNA for
a sexual offender who was in jail in New South
Wales and he'd also done one in South Australia, we
managed to get him to clean him up and we
talked earlier. We managed to transfer in prison to Queensland
and get him to deal with But you know what,
(23:46):
that's it brings an outcome, even after allmen of them years,
there's an outcome for someone instead of them. I wonder
what happened to that guy that did that to me,
and then all of a sudden the outcome that must
be better than nothing. And you use that as avention
thing as well as Hey, these offenders are out there.
And I used to go to meetings I was part
(24:06):
of a team from the hospital nurses and to better
support victims of sexual assault. And there was a very
good supporting agency at the cost for counseling and what
have you, but also as a brand new hospital Sunshine Case,
and there was a designated area for examinations because obviously
(24:27):
DNA is a very important evidence and the way it's
collected and how the victims, that initial treatment of the
victim is very important, and to try and get them
in a facility where they don't have to sit in
accident emergency exactly, and we can go on this prior
to go a back entrance into the hospital in the
A and E. And so I was part of the
crowd that got that and make sure we get that
(24:49):
support full of victims. As I said, I got two daughters,
so it yeah, I just and I remember as a
young Blake, if there was like a girl she was
a bit intoxicated or something, and there lectures hanging around,
and we used to protect them, you know. And I
don't know if it probably does happen now with.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Pim, but still I think it still happens.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah exactly, But you know, I suppose that's just that's
just me. What I grew up with that.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, they're the values that's been still exactly the values
that we all should have. With the one you were
talking about the South Australia and New South Wales and
the DNA. Talk us through that one. How were they linked?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, that was a sexual solo that in a unit
at Ruchie Door and I think look, I think it
was about like nineteen ninety four or something like that
when the database, you know, you started to develop around
the national data they re random again and it came
up and then we found out he'd gone to South
(25:47):
Australian pleaded with some and they're very similar type of circumstances.
And yeah, one of the detective sergeant and he did
that before he retired. We really pushed that and he
got that done and got him back. And because I'd
done that, Eric Maray transfer. There's not a lot of
coppers understand that Interstate Transfer of Prisoners Act exists, which
all the states are signatures to. So I had all
(26:10):
the reports about that, so he's able to follow that
process because it's a bit daunting to some, but we
managed to get it done and got him back and pleaded,
you know, twenty something years later thirty years later, so's
you can put the effort in still later and get
a result.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And it does help. So what other type of crimes
are you dealing with on the Sunshine Case Because you've
gone from the wild West in Northern Territory and then
homicide and all the horror and things that homicide bring.
We've talked sexual assaults on the Sunshine Case. What are
the other type of contemporary Because you've been retired what
(26:47):
two years now?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I had to retire at sixty in twenty twenty two.
I kept working, doing a bit of work, as you know.
But the other thing then I think was a victim
of technology. Some Shine Case twenty percent are probably over
sixty five year old something like that. So we had
a lot of older people. They're subjective scams and what
(27:10):
have you. So that was a real focus and hence
that what happened that day at the Tackle was about
a fraud batter and it's prevention and trying to educate
older people, especially who aren't that I failed. You know
a lot of older people are they take people on
face grant, they don't think everyone's coming with you, And
I were thinking, this guy's talking to me. I don't know,
(27:30):
I'll be thinking the words he's trying to scam me
or rip me off or you know where people older
people don't have that. No, they take everyone face well,
that they're one.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
First. I've had conversations that weren't embarrassed with my mum,
but they sounded very nice on the Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And so a lot of that crime prevention was about that,
and there was there was women there that got scammed
romance schems. You know. One had been used to buy
one hundred and thirty third thousand dollars land Cruiser and
then they stopped another company. There was nearly a loss
of a million dollars. They managed to intercept it. This
(28:07):
woman had been news for that. She lost her car.
But it's hard to once I go that far, it's
hard to bring them back, you know, they just can't
see it. And prevention is a big thing. So that
was a big focus for me at the Sunshine Coast
for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Okay, now you mentioned the sixty year retirement in Queensland place.
We don't have that in New South Wales. I'm not
sure other jurisdictions, but it's correct me if I'm wrong,
Because our good mate Howard Hickey. He retired, but he
went back and he could do some work. You could
work part time. What's the process there. Yeah, I think
(28:45):
that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, and I think it's coming back in there. There's
a lot of Look recently, I was doing work in
our ethical Standards area where it was just working in
relation to staff members in discipline areas, so I had
no powers of please, I did no criminal aspects. And
how I'd actually got a job as an administration officer
working in the cold case team and because they had
(29:06):
knowledge of a lot of the old cases makes sense exactly.
And for what you're going to be paid at that level,
there's not a lot of money. And otherwise you're going
to be paying detective sergeant a lot of money on
shift work to do the same thing what Howard could
have been doing as a And that was the idea
about it, and I think they're starting to come around that,
And certainly the Queen's and Police with ethic a Stands
(29:29):
area have a staff member investigation group that focuses solely
on staff members non criminal and the police don't have
to be doing it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
We've got a shortage of police across the country, And
I always think, and I know you guys experienced the
same thing and other jurisdictions, that the amount of non
police work that you're actually doing recording keeping, records recorded,
not records about the criminal investigation, but management type stuff.
Or yeah, you're a homicide detective. I don't know about you,
(30:00):
but as yeah, senior homicide detect if. I spent a
lot of time in front of the failure copier because
I had the failure copy of briefs because there was
no one to fail their copy of brief Just a
simple thing like that would free a lot of people up.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Exactly. Like we talked about how Hickey liked doing his
role there. He could go through an old file because
he experienced he can do a summary to an investigator.
Say that investigator reading it for two weeks and he
can find all the old statements. He can find everything
and put its important, there is some avenues here, or
if some information come in, he would say, yeah, that
information relates to this statement, all this statement, and it's
(30:36):
cost effective and like you could do it. Like we
talked about fraud briefly, a lot of stuff to do
with fraud investigations could be done by a retired cop.
You know, they need a serving cop on shiftwork to
do that.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm with you, and I think that's we've
got to move forward, have that flexibility because it's you know,
people retire from the police and all that experience is lost.
And yeah, Howard going through it a murder brief, the
amount of experience he brings just there. Yeah, literally literally
cases could get solved because you've got someone that knows
(31:08):
what they're doing. There just a general question here with policing.
Do you think the crooks have got the advantage or
the cops have got the advantage in this DNA compared
to when we joined.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I think it was I think it's coming back around.
We started to gain the advantage back around, Like the
crooks start to get better represented and at our expense,
and not that they're not entitled to it, but I
don't think as some of those defense laws were thinking ahead,
what's the best outcomeing we get for this guy? And
(31:42):
just but we've got technology came around on our side, then,
you know what I mean to it. I think they
brought the advantage back around, not just DNA, but just technology.
GPS's movement of phones and tracking and different things like
that security, the security cameras everywhere that never used to
be anywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I had an experienced defense list of the Greg Gould
on the podcast recently and I was asking him because
he'd been in the courts bashing up on cops for
for the years and defend defending people. He said his observations,
the world's changed a little bit in it in our
early days in playing clothes, a lot hinged on what
(32:23):
we said, what we saw, because that was the evidence
that was presented to the court. So you spent a
lot of time in the witness box. But he said
police aren't spending as much time in the witness box
because basically the brief is supported by forensic evidence, whether
it be CCTV footage or telephone records that type of
thing or the DNA. So it's changing face there, isn't.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
It it is? And look now if you have always
a committal hearing, they've got to nominate why they want
that winness to be cross examinle Whereas years ago I
just expected we want him him and him, and yeah,
you know, and you would. I've got an old murder
case still from the Gold Cup Hugo Bench was murdered
there in the nineties that we've charged an offender with that,
(33:05):
and that's still ongoing. I'd been to a vard. I
was there for two days in the box getting hammred
by a barrister and I'm looking at the guys charged
with that in the background like an idiot. But that's
the way it is. But what I noticed to Gary,
when you retire, you don't have to be so conforming
(33:25):
to them. So I was, to be honest with you, I
was given it back to this barrister because I wasn't
copper his rubbish anymore, but copper anymore? What are they
going to do to me? So that's still ongoing. But yeah,
I think a lot of the time of the processes
have changed and there's a lot of coppers now. Even
detectives would have several years experience. You say, have you
(33:47):
ever given everything a trial? And they go, no, I
hadn't even been there.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
It scares me because unless you've been there, and then
unless you've you've got the battle scars from the local
court made and learning this box. Like I would see
people go in where they haven't got the experience into
a murder trial, and I think you Paul Barstards, you
have no idea what you're about to walk into. And
there's it's in theater. It's intimidation that's making you look
(34:15):
at in front of in front of the jury. I
think we've done away with committal hearings to the extent
that in New South Wales, and I remember how much
time it felt like you had two trials, didn't it
because the defense would go for drag the committal out,
make some more money, find the weakness in the police case,
(34:35):
and then you'd be doing it again down the track
in the trial a couple of years later. Now you
didn't completely retire from policing or criminal investigation because you
around the same time that you woul due to retire
from Queensland, you got an offer or your approach to
work on the war crimes investigation. I'm not sure how
(34:55):
much you can say about that, but.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I have got secrecy agreements with the old A special
investigator was formed because of the Afghanistan. What I'm telling
is this common knowledge in the media, and I was
able to apply for a circondment, had to do an
application selection interview and what have you, and I ended
up going there in June which was about six or
(35:17):
seven months before I was due to retire, So I
took that as ayconoment, still working for Queensland Police and
as I said, I was going to have to retire
in the following January anyway, and that was good. So
I did that for nearly three years. Interesting work. But
it was more like because it was a homicide I
had a homicide background as well. It was really murder
(35:40):
investigations with specific limitations obviously, where it was what the
evidence you did or didn't have, and things like that
following that inquiry. But I still found it interesting. You know,
I did cop a bit of flack off some people sometimes,
you know about the fact that you were trying to
essentially lock up our war heroes. Yeah, you got those
(36:02):
and that's fair enough. I get that, And they didn't
have an understanding of what it was about. Either side
just took that on facevailue and didn't you didn't react
to it. I got that.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, it is a contentious issue, but it could be
looked at in different ways. You're not trying to lock
them up, you're looking at the CFA's evidence. Yeah, seeing
where the truth lies could assist as much as it
could could hinder, but yeah, I would imagine that it
would polarize people and it would be a difficult thing.
But you enjoyed that, you kept stimulated your mind on what.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
You exactly and like our guys and a team had
a good team, and even some of the soldiers that
were subject the matter and obviously not going to name anybody,
I think they had that perception of what we are
who were But when they spoke the investigator Lucky I
had very experienced homicide people team at Queensland Homicide, Victorian Homicide,
(36:58):
their experienced New South while Intel an AFP officer like
I had a really good team. And when they spoke
to these people, the subjects of those investigations, I think
they had a different view afterwards because I could see
that we're just doing a job and that we treated
them fairly.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
It wasn't which.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Exactly right, and so I think overall, you know, it's
still ongoing, so obviously limited to what we say. But I,
for myself, personally, I thought it was good. I've been
coming to Sydney off and on for that many years,
so living here for a couple of years and just
being like a fIF back to the Sunshine case wasn't
(37:39):
such a bad option.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, yeah, I want to just get a sense, like
a criminal investigation, what qualities And yeah, I'm not pissing
in your pocket here that you're a good detective. I'm
interested in what qualities you see that makes a good detective.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
I think we talked about a communication. You've just got
to talk to people, and every persons different and you've
got to you've got to quickly realize what this person
will want talk about, or what they're like, or what
attitude they've got a view, and you've got to change
your vocabulary, change everything, change the way you're looking at,
change what you So let's go and sit down here
(38:21):
and just do you want a coffee? Mate? All of
a sudden, it's a different scenario, and you know you're
not just some copper having this regulated type of conversations
to someone. Those type of skills are the biggest skills communication,
and you can't You're not going to learn that at
the police academy. You're not going to learn it. You'll
get told how about interviewing and learn from psychologists about
(38:44):
you know, people dealing with people. Sure, you get that background,
but those skills, they're learned. They're learned, and I think
maybe it's a type of character you are. You know,
like like you are in a pub probably anywhere when
I was a young black and talk to the old
tanks to me about anything, you know what I mean,
And if they weren't a bug, if he wanted to
talk about this, or talk about football, I'd ever talked
(39:06):
to him about or whatever it might have been. So
I think you do have some natural skills that you
bring in that some people don't.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Well, it's amazing what you the type of people that
you get to deal with as a detective. If you
spent a long time there that you're literally speaking the
heads of state royalty down to the local junkie on
the street exactly and the whole range in between, and
you've got to be able to communicate at their level.
(39:36):
I always thought that was important that yeah, not judging people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And also there's another thing too I was thinking of
quite honestly, you've got to have a better guts. You've
got to have a bit of moral courage because not
everyone's going to like it. Not everyone's going to want
to talk to you, and crooks are like dingoes. They'll
smell fere and uh good, that's my my thoughts. I've
always believed that that they smell fear, and the moment
(40:03):
they smell fear, I'll try and walk all over you.
And you've got to have that type of front where
you're show that you're not. You might be thinking this
guy is huge. If he starts knuck on me, I'm
going to have to do him invest But unless you've
got that thought process, oh you're half prepared for it.
But they will smell fear, and you've got to it's
(40:24):
your demeanor whether you can overcome that as well. So
you've got to have a bit of moral courage and.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
The way definitely the way you carry carry yourself. And
you see it suit with some people, and it might
be a young detective coming in and there's this whole
crook that spent more time in an interview room than
the cop has, and you can see the balance is
not right. You've got to be able to take criticism
as a cop too. And I saw people really take
(40:51):
it personally that we go to court and you'd be criticized,
but we've done nothing wrong. Why are we getting criticized.
You've got to be a little bit robust. You've got
to believe in what you're doing and prepared to take
the people who are going to throw shit back at exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Look, I've had plenty of beers with barrasses after getting
a hiding off them or and have a period of time.
They'd say, listen, you're going to get I'm going to
hammer you about this, but we'll never be later, and
that's that's that's fair. And but you're right. And sometimes
you'd be getting cross examined about something and you're thinking,
I wish I'd have done that, or it's a learning
(41:28):
it's a learning process. You never stop learning. You just
never stop learning. But take take a positive away and
go okay. And sometimes you've got to own your mistakes. Yeah, okay,
Yeah I made a mistake. Oh yeah, acknowledge if you're
getting hammer by embarrassed as you know, and you go
you acknowledge a mistake. Yeah I could have done that.
I probably should have take the Well that's the end of.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
It when you're arguing and just not an inch. Yeah,
but that that comes comes with experience. I got to say,
with some of the barrisses that I'd go up against
during my court time, I've had them here on the podcast,
and I've got to begrudgingly say, and I say that
half jokingly, that they improved me as a detective because
(42:11):
I'd come up against them and I go, I'd prepare
as much as I could walk in there, and they
the moment that I opened my mouth, they asked me
a question. I think, Fuck, that's a good question. Why
didn't I think I think of that? But Okay, that's
what I've learned. So each time you up skills. So
some of the people that I didn't like in early
parts of my career, I've got a credit with credit
(42:32):
them with helping me development.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
They helped your self improvement because you were in a
way to the next investigation. Remember what you got hamm
about last time. I'm not going to make that mistake again,
or I'm going to do things a little bit different.
And I'm going to ask this peanut some other things
that I was getting hammon about last time. You know,
it's a learning curve.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, and you're tight and tighten your gamer.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
And you shouldn't take it personally. That's that you should get.
And a lot of young ones do they think they're getting.
They get a subject of it, and they I could
still go up to any Barris and I have a
talk to him later and ask him something. But some
of the young ones didn't have that. I said, you
just got to accept them.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
It's almost it might be a generational thing, but it's
almost like shock. How did someone criticize me? Well, yeah,
that's part and parcel of the job. You've chosen through
your career. Got some awards and you've got the Australian
Police Medal, and that's that's a fairly impressive award for
(43:32):
services to the community like above and beyond them the people.
There's a lot of great cops that have got that award.
But you also got the Queensland Women in Policing Award.
And we're very open minded here, Darren, but how did
you get the woman.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
The Queensland one was a recognition, but then I think
it was the following year or something like that. I
got the Australian that QUAP Women Australian Women and Policing
Award for a champion of change.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Okay, okay, having to get maybe it's the way you tackled.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Or I've got plenty over it.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Because I was preparing for this, I know a lot
about you, but I'm flicking through it. How did you
get that all? So you explained it just on record.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
When I was a Sanshine Coast particularly, I had some
part time female officers there. They just do a great job,
and I know how they struggle with kids and get
themself to work, kids sick, and I a good relations
with them because I think it was the way I
treated them they hadn't been used to maybe previously. And
(44:41):
I know when they got to work if they had
to be late, or they couldn't they couldn't drop their
kid to the child as he's sick. That to make
some under rangers they're not going to be there at
five d eight, They're going to be there at quarter
past date. So bit. But they would work extremely hard,
even for the ones doing part time, and I recognized that.
And even though I was in the territory to work
with female detectives, especially when I was young and when
(45:04):
I first went to the branch, the old detective sergeants
didn't want to work with the female detectives. That was
the way it was, and I'd always end up working
with them, especially the sexual assault matter, as we're always
doing it was a bit of old school. The female
detectives interview the female victim, I do the trouble trying
to round up the offender and what have you. But
(45:24):
I work really nice to see how they managed ship
work with children and all that. And I appreciated that
I struggled themself to get myself to work lettlone have
to manage two kids, and even if they were married
and everything. Women looked at the kids better than men,
especially back then, and I just had an appreciate of it.
That award I didn't know I was getting nominated, was
(45:46):
nominated by the girls that worked in my well there
at the Sunshine Coast and another officer they nominated me
for it, and.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Well at old Jakes aside, I think you should be
proud of that. I really do, because what you've said
is so true and I see and we don't have
enough women in certainly criminal investigation because of the type
of things you're talking about. And if you can give
them that little bit of assistance and it doesn't cost anything,
(46:19):
of course, and to me create a happy work environ.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
A pressure off them. Yeah, not to have say they
say I'll buy some I'm sorry, I'm going to be
ten minutes like that. You don't need to apologize when
they come in and say come when you can. Don't
worry about ring up and getting stressed out, you know
what I mean, There's no need. We'll send me a
text hey kids sick, be late. That's it.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
That's the way. And it's that old school thinking going, oh,
that's why women shouldn't be in the cops. They add
to every investigation I've been on. If I have a
woman on the strike force, it gives a balance. Otherwise
you've got buffhead blokes thinking one way. And quite often
discussions you have with the difficult investigations of woman's perspective
(47:03):
on it quite often change it changes you're thinking.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Look when I got that award and it was a
functioning pin, I didn't expect that.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
What frock did you wear there?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
And I had I was quite quite a good as
I said, I didn't expect that to get it at all,
and it was a bit of a shock and I'd
had nothing prepared. And the same thing I talked about, Well,
one of the ladies I used to work with, and
Angie Smith now she was Angie Brad Then I remember
we're going out for a sexual assault. We're going back
to her place, so I'm just going to get a
(47:35):
husband and given my a hand with the kids. We'll
go back, have a cup tea and a bit of
taste or something, and then we'll go back and try
and tidy things up. I think we'd locked the offender
up as well. And I remember sitting on the couch
with her son, David. He was probably three or four,
and he said something to me and I said this,
and I said, I don't know what he said. And
I said, oh, and I made it. I'm pretty tired.
(47:56):
And he said, you're not pretty come back from that.
And and even as your name, my nickname was Edouard.
And even the homicide guy from Victoria that worked Mere
in Sydney, we saw that award, he just what a
load of rubbish, you know, And he used to give
(48:17):
me and I used to enjoy seeing him afraid of
my award every now and then, you know. And when
they used to advertise nominees for that, I said, you're
going to nominate for that? Anyway? I was talking about
that news Wills Intel also we had there. She's a champion, Chris.
She she's now switched OVERFP but she's about five foot nothing, thin,
(48:41):
Greek heritage, very fiery, and we used to stir up
and we didn't have to try hard. And she used
to fire up and especially Josh and said, I was going,
why don't you go and see your champion and change?
And she used to be my biggest defender, you know.
But it was about that relationship that you developed. And
(49:02):
you know, they used to take photos office in there,
and when I finished the three guys we got, I
got the same shirt from this manufacturer. We we got
the same shirt and we all photograph and they put
photos up in the wall and Eduarde champion a change.
And then well that's the other thing about that. And
I probably said that to you. I said, I had
(49:22):
to explain my whole life why I was called Eduarda
and that still happens now. So Eduard, I think I
sent you the photo of it was a photo that fart.
I think it was about nineteen eighty eight, and you
can see I look you for all intents my grandfather
mum so I was Maltese, but I look like I'm
(49:43):
some Spanish tourists or something. Yeah, exactly in here. And
I was a bit old, especially in the territorial as years. Anyway,
I think it was in Mackay. I'd come there and
cost me from the territory and I looked still looked
a bit like that. And there was a guy that
had a business up there, Edward Pool, the pool maintenance. Anyway,
(50:05):
there's the clues to call me the pool clean Anyway,
Someone's typing their running shots in and then they'd always
I'd put Edwards slash you know whoever, Smith or whatever,
and anyway they'd always get rid of the s and
put oath and the bosses comes out the freaking elles
Eduardo and just it went on and on went over
(50:25):
the years, and no one knew me in Brisbane, and
then everyone thought my name was actually Eduarda and I
had that photo and that just stuck with me for years.
Well people didn't even know my real name.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Well well, well deserved with the massage look undercover Spanish
Spanish cop. I saw a photo of you too online
somewhere sitting on the Harley, but I'm not sure that.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Was Dar And that was right on the blancs. I
was in a group there, a tactical intel group where
we used to a lot of intel and target the
bikes up there at the time. That's what that was.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yeah right, Okay, well you've you've had a had a
great career, would you would you recommend it for others?
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I've had funny, I've had mixed feelings, and I change.
I probably change a bit on that. Sometimes when my
daughter's younger, if they said, oh, I joined the police,
or so I don't, please don't. Now I'm probably a
little bit different. I still think there, especially if they're intelligent,
because my daughter's a universe as you have a very
good position qualifications, I think there's better opportunity. I used
(51:33):
to see a lot of ones doing UNI that used
to use the police as a bit of a stepping
stone to maybe something else. Understand that, you know, years
ago we used to have a job and we just
have that job for forty years, and you know the
young ones. Now I think seven years as the long
as someone spends in the same job. It's changed. Yeah,
but now I think I think it's difficult, especially the focus.
(51:58):
The DV stuff is really hard, and the job is harder.
Everyone's filming you at the moment you two and you're
using body warm camera. You've got to think. But having
said that. I think young people are more educated than
probably you and I were. I didn't even finish grade twelve,
you know what I mean, went to tafe, did a
(52:18):
trade course. You know my focus. I wanted to be
a bricklayer. That was what I wanted. Yeah, it was
a great, a huge aspiration.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
That would have been tough. Although now you'd probably be doing.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Bricking and my brother's are built tough gig and I
saw my brother Ago and he's his bodies He's two
years younger than me and his body is really suffering. Yeah,
so I don't know. At this day and age, I
think maybe it is a good option. And the money
is pretty good, so at least it's a starting and
(52:55):
there are avenues to go. I think it's look, not
everyone's going to be want to be a street copper
and doing that for that and they don't cope with
shift work and all the rest of them. And if
I'm on a bit gay to frauds squad and that's good.
You see, you be a fraudsquad detective, sit in the
air conditioning seven point five hours of the day and
(53:17):
build a brief and that's what you're okay, But I
think there is avenues for people a bit more than
what you and I would have looked.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I'd like them to make it because you talked about yeah,
we signed up and it was basically, Okay, this is
what I'm doing for the rest of my life, and
you said the seven year mark is where people tend
to change careers. I reckon if we could make police
in a little bit more flexible, so you could love
take a couple of years off and come back and
do a refresher course if legislations change, or up skill
(53:47):
and get your firearms practices in place. You should be
able to take time and then come back and rejoin
and not have to start at the bottom again. I
think that would encourage people because it's almost like, Okay,
if I'm going to sign up for this, I'm going
to have someone telling me what to do for the
rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
Yeah, there is there is a bit of flex There
should be flexible. I agree, because I see some coppers
that leave to go and do something else and then
that's not that great and the money is like and actually,
you know, I think I'm better off back at the cops.
I think they shouldn't It shouldn't be hard to do
that it shouldn't be hard. It shouldn't be made hard.
And that's a way of getting numbers back and keeping
(54:25):
that maintaining that, you know, trying to stop that attrition
rate set of just know you're gone now and you've
got to apply and crawl over hot coals to try
and come back. It shouldn't be like that. Shouldn't Yeah,
it should be you know, when you have an exit interview,
we're sorry to see you go. You'll have a job
here if you come back, you'll have a job here. Mate.
What will do We can just put you through a
(54:47):
week of FoST firearm and tactical training get your back,
but we'll go through some education. We'll have something set
up on a course at the academy. We have these
rolling all the time. You know, it's not that hard.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
And you don't forget, like if you've done something for
a long time, you don't forget, and you could come
back into it. Yeah, I think that could be the
future of policing because everyone's struggling to attract police and
maybe we just need that flexibility. But look, we might
wrap it up here, Darren. I just want to say
I enjoyed when we got to work together, had great times,
(55:22):
and I totally respect the type of cop that you
are and also thank you on behalf of the communities
that you've served and the work that you've done, and
you've done it with a lot of dignity to.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yeah, look, I appreciate it. And as I said, I
wasn't pissing your pocket. It's good to have stayed in
contact with you and have that friendly basis and that
it's really encouraging. And so many people talk about the
podcast work that you've done, and everyone can relate to it,
but it gives an opportunity to people. That gives opportunity
for other people to listen and hear it in a
(55:55):
relaxed format and we're not governed by I can't talk
about that, I can't talk about this. I think that's
really good and I think it does Yeah, you know yourself,
it does have help to talk about those things. So
I think there it has been a good opportunity for
me to come and see you and talk about it
because I don't get an often, but I'm sure my
partner gets sick of me telling a war stories. I
(56:17):
remember this, you think in Darwen in nineteen ninety one
and he's looking at me, and I don't think. I
don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Yeah, we probably should put a shout out to the
partners of police.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
That, you know what, I had copies of my diaries,
you know, in the back of our diary in the
territory used to write when we arrested someone, were involved
in the rest of someone, and we'd have the date
of John Smith receiving burglary whatever. And I had a
heap of from there manslaughter, man's all. And I can
remember nearly virtually remember every person. When I looked at
(56:51):
the name, I remember him.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
Well I found Bret Cown's name there, and it was
the date in whatever it was in ninety three, and
I have the page. I just put a sault in
Matthew because I think it was Matthew is the name
of the young boy that was right, okay, And I'm thinking, wow,
there it is there. And there was another matter I
(57:14):
was trying to think of, grimly, this guy is a
sexual asault young girl. Anyway, I found it is here,
you know, but I still had them. It was funny,
you know. I was showing some of my partner and
I could just see she was glazing over, so I
don't really get an opportunity to talk to people much.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
They won't listen. That's exciting. They haven't told you the
end yea further than a thousand times. I've been there
and done that. Well, thanks all the best of your retirement.
I'm sure you're enjoying yourself. Last time I spoke to
you were out on your your surf ski battling on
the on the river. So yeah, good good luck.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Thanks for the invitation and thanks for the opportunity and
your staff member as well.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Love the Fund. Nine
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
In part two of my chat, we've retired Detective Senior
Sergeant Darren Edwards. We talk about how he became an
Internet sensation, his involvement in the arrest of Daniel Morkham's
killer Brett Cowen, other murder investigations he was involved in,
and he's time working as an investigator on the War crimes.
We talk about a lot of things, all related to policing,
(01:09):
and as you will hear Darren is the type of
detective you want on your case. He's one of the
good guys. Darren. I was going to wait till after
or towards the end of this part two to show
you this, but I can't help myself and I want
to get it out now, so I thought stuff it.
You know, I'm a detective. If you're a detective, you
know you prepare for the interview room, and consider this
(01:30):
an interview room. I'm now going to play you Exhibit A,
and I want you to comment on that. After I've
played this. You're not obliged to say anything or do
anything unless you wish to do so. But whatever you
say or do may later be used in evidence. Do
you understand that I understand that? Okay, Exhibit A or there's.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Damage there, I'm not one hundred percent on that.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yes, you were you cover the cover? All right, Darren?
Where do I start with that? What we just witness there?
I'll describe what I saw and then you can offer
explanation and remember your under caution here and if you
(02:21):
if you're listening to this and you want to watch
Darren's classic tackle, go to the Eye Catch Killer's YouTube
channel and you can see it. You're in the middle
of a live TV interview and the commotion you hear
in the background is someone running. Obviously app's been up
to no good. You, in a split second have turned
(02:42):
looked process and decided to launch yourself in what I'd
say is as a state of origin style tackle and
just belted this blake into the ground. You tell That's
what I observed, Darren. I still to this day think
it was one of the most impressive pieces of police
I've ever seen, and also one of the most funniest.
(03:02):
Talk us through what happened there.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, Like I think it was a bit of a
like a natural type of reaction, Like I played football
for many years and it's someone's running, and you know,
what are you going to do? And he could have
gone past, And like it was only split second before
I actually tackled him. I realized who he was because
you come and interrupted that press conference which was about
(03:26):
a fraud matter, I think by memory earlier and anyway,
But to me, it was just like instinct, Like it's
not all that clear, but when I was listening, when
I was doing the interview, I could hear this comments
from the father in the background to work before you
can really hear it on the mics. I could hear
(03:48):
what was going on in the background, and then all
of a sudden, you've got an offender running. And it
was just an instinct, to be honest, I'm just going
to stop this guying old tackling. That's the only way
I know. It was always tackled away. I was very,
very fair type of footballer girl. I was tackled like anyway.
So that's how it happened. But as I said, even
(04:09):
you play it from the whole thing. He'd come and
interrupted the press conference earlier.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
How dare you interrupt your press conference?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And I realized he had a few issues and anyway,
he because I remember looking at his charge sheet and
I realized he got out of court or whatever, and
I had a look at his charge. When you see
he charges, you know that makes sense. You're a public nuisance.
But I didn't realize it was the same guy until
I was just about.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Exactly as you're flying me there.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I suppose I'm just there
in my suit and I hadn't been footy training for
a while, and he's running and I'm going to tackle him,
and it's funny. I had the blood you notice on
my head was I'd actually had a couple of sun
skin cancers burned off only a day or so before,
so all the blisters. So when my skin rubbed on
(04:59):
his pants or tackling, that's what that That's what that was.
I mean, I didn't hurt myself or anything, and I
haven't that There was a garden bed there they cleaned
out in front of that. It was kind of on
the edge of that. And I know I had dirt
and mud on the back of my suit. And I
even took the suit the dry cleaners. They wouldn't charge me.
I wanted to do it and take fart as of
the suit. It was quite funny.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Well, a couple of questions that flow on from that.
Did you go back to your press conference.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I wouldn't finish the press I didn't think a lot
about it, And you know, one of the bosses, uniform inspectors,
we say, are you are right? So I just went
and carried on my carroll on my day, you know.
And then when I was finishing work, I walked out
the front and Channel seven reporter, the main guy that
did was doing the fraud conference. He's out the front
(05:47):
and he suit with a tie on, doing this press conference.
And I said him, what's going on? Is this something
else going on? And he says, oh, I know today
that's bigger than anything, you know. Really Anyway, I went
home then I realized had a miscor from my sister
who I went to her wedding in Italy years you know,
a couple of years before. And then I got home
(06:10):
my party said, so what happened today? Nothing really, just
I don't think anything of it. I just sort there
was some you know, some peanut run around upsetting, you know,
and I do it does anyone that interferes or tries upset? Yeah?
Attack or you know, I got two daughters. Women should
(06:32):
able to go around the street with getting some grub,
making comments about their short skirt and all the rest
of it and things like that, which he was doing
as I found out, and that, you know, whilst the
father yelling out and something about the girl and a
bloke running. That's enough for me. That was my brain
(06:52):
reaction and a tackling. I just didn't realize it was
going to have the effect that it did.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Well, you're a very humble hum What I liked about
it was the processing. You're clearly not a ditherer in police,
because in policing we get a lot of people that
dither a little bit. You in a split second or
a millisecond said okay, offender running Darren, must tackle, and
you've gone and you've launched yourself. The reaction after it,
(07:21):
you went viral, and I think you end up doing
conferences about your tackle and getting critiqued on your tackling side.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I did. But I look, even one morning I had
to do from Good Morning America some Prague in one
morning because I remember this guy from the Territor and
he won't mind me saying his name, Hughsy Jeff Hughs
used to work in the territory, used to smash men tennis.
But anyway, he's a very fit, tall where he's lived
in the States for years. Anyway, he's saying I got
(07:50):
stuff from him on Facebook and he saw that morning program,
and you know, they just loved that. They said, I
know this guy, but it's just wol I just couldn't
believe it. But the main point I was sorry I
was getting out was that that should be a copper's
reaction for someone who's hassling some female on the street
(08:12):
that that should be the reaction. I heard enough I
processed in my mind and for him running, he was,
I don't play grabs, you I never played grabs, and well,
that's what I'm going to do tackling. You've chased enough offenders.
You get talking to him, you know they're going to
cut for it, and exactly and they can't run without legs,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's that's the and the state of origin hero. While
we lewis critiquing your tackling, So what was his opinion.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
On I got a call from t GB mister Hadley
having to talk about it, and then then he said
to me, oh, by the way, Wally said, you got
your head in the wrong place, and I thought, oh,
I'm sorry, I'm in my suitor. Wasn't It wasn't like
a front rower running up to me in the line
of defense, you know, tackling the sprinting Hungarian. And from
(09:01):
the sides, I thought it had a pretty good job.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
If that's the only thing you ever achieved in your
policing career, you could retire, retire happy because, as I said,
I think it's a classic. I'm just going to ask
this question. Do you joggers safe if they're running past you?
Can you process it? You're not liking the tack dog.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It's funny every now and I get comments and I'm
walking recently and I was working in Brisbane. I was
walking in the street and someone someone was running past,
and I heard these guys talk me high and they
turned about too young blake from homicide and they go,
don't tackling, mate. It's funny, and then you get sized up.
(09:39):
I remember like being in Dan Murphy's one day and
I saw this guy was stalking me and he's a
big kiwi guy and then he circles around and I've
got my little basket full of wine and he comes
up and he says, you're that guy, aren't you. I
don't know if it was some offence or something. I said,
that was a good tackle man, and then he just
walks off. But you just don't know. And this is
(10:01):
years later. It's funny how people recognize you what it is,
but look at it. It gave people some enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Well, what I liked about it. It strips down the
most basic thing. When you joined the cops, good versus evil,
and you were the good guy you and there was
a bad guy and bang it's done. Did you ever
consider what would have happened if you missed the tackle?
I'll point out, I wouldn't have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Our district superintendent, he said, and what if you had
a missed And I said, that just made me feel sick,
And I actually I wake up one night with Pat
saying in my head, nothing I heard. This didn't happen,
And yeah, yeah, no one would have wanted I would
have been the laughing stock.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
You wouldn't. You wouldn't be here I have. I'd probably
have Howard Hickey here instead.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
That's a fair, fair question. But well I'm glad that
I didn't miss many tackles. I have to say for myself,
I had a pretty good strike right as a forward.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Good on you. You deserve to talk it up. But yeah,
it was great and I think all jokes aside. I
think it typifies the type of cop that you roll
up your sleeves and just get in there and do
your job. Okay, that's the lighthearted situation. I want to
take us back to a crime that people all across
(11:26):
Australia for me, with the abduction and murder of Daniel Morecambe.
He was thirteen years of age at the time. We
talked in part one about your involvement in locking up
the person that was eventually convicted of Daniel Morcambe's murder,
and he's currently in prison. You locked him up when
you're working in the Northern Territory for a very serious,
(11:48):
serious crime. He did his time in prison, got out
and then it led to what happened to Daniel, which
was horrific and I think it touched everyone in the country.
Tell us about your involvement in that investigation, just from
your observations and your involvement in it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, Look, as I said, i'd come from the Northern Territory.
I can remember getting old on the old computer system
that was there at the time and putting his name
because when he was arrested up in the territory, I
knew come from Sunshine Coast area, so did I originally,
and so I remember printing out where he lived and
later on it did service that the information we got
(12:30):
he driven pass, so he was connected there and that
was when I was a homicide and I went up
there working on that job for the time. As time
went on, obviously went onto other investigations. But then later
on in twenty eleven, I got the role there at
the Sunshine Coast as ICSIB. Some work had been done
(12:50):
progressing on him and as it turned out, they were
able to get him back to the coast. And I
think it was in Augut eleven. It was down in
the forestry area or the bush area there and he
was arrested.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
And the circumstances is coming there and I think people
were aware of there was an undercover office credit involved
in it, and you were hiding the bush or covertly
in the in the bush. What was the purpose of
Cohen going to that location?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The covits have got him there because he was purportedly
be part of this gang and ire worried that people
knew who he was. So if he got some focus
again on him, it would draw attention to that group
he was mixing with supposedly criminal crime Green and they
wanted some guarantees that was no there was no obvious
(13:49):
remains going to be able to be seen or found.
So he was coaxing going to that location. And he
gave the indication there was an embankment and he'd said
I tossed the boy over here.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And so he was. He was actually showing where the
cover place where the body body was. Daniel's body was.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
In the Glasshouse Mountains area there and as it turned out,
decision was made to arrest him there on that spot.
Later on a lot of good work by the SEES
local a S has put amount of time into that
area and the remains unfortunately, well fortunately or unfortunately were
found of Daniel very quickly and that firmed up that
(14:32):
he'd taken him there and it actually killed him in
a small demandable. That demand of was actually gone, but
it was moved and it was actually put behind another
house in Landsborough that it was used being used, so
it was of no forensic value by things have been
cleaned out, repainting all the rest of it, but it
(14:55):
fit in the scene and the fact he took them
to that spot of acres of for him to be
able to take to that spot and gay I chucked
his body over there. It didn't take long to find.
I think we found his skateboard shoes initially and there
was some bones and that was happened fairly quickly, so
that was good. But once you know it's funny to
(15:18):
be it's not funny, but it's unusual for me to
have been involved his arrest in nineteen ninety three, go
to homicide and later on, oh I see there. It's
a full circle manager for that supposedly for that job
going on there a homicide, was running it and everything
with the locals, detectives, and then being there when he's
(15:38):
arrested that many years later for a climb and he
talks about strangling him and that's what he did to
that little boy and Matthew in Dahn. So it was
a really unusual set of circumstances.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
How did it feel for you personally seeing him being
arrested that all being present during his arrest for Daniels.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
I think a good outcome, you know, not the best
outcome of the one of the sunback for the Morcambe,
but we talked about earlier that's it brings an outcome,
and when he was convicted, even better and all that
information in the inquest come out about the incident of
the territory. We were pretty annoyed that they hadn't run
with charging with attempted murder and you know a lot
(16:21):
of the guys said, you know, things might have been
different if it had been serving eight to nine years
for tempted murder in Darwin. Yeah, Daniel might not happen.
It's a stretch of the bow, I know. But a
lot of police they have that attitude and maybe the
morcams do too. But at least there was some type
of satisfaction that he was court convicted and Daniel's remains
(16:46):
were like it And that's what I talk about. We
talked about Jessica Goudy. That's the importance of finding those
persons remains is very important for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Brett Town, how long was he sense? For what did he?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
He got sentence of life imprisonment and there's a lot
of changes to her around life imprisonment now. But I
could never I think they're recommendations. No, probably I could
never see him ever getting pro.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, oh that's justifiable. It is a horrible, horrible crime.
Denise and Bruce Malcombe, He's parents. They were tireless in
trying to get justice.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Weren't they They were?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, and still heavily involved. And you see the toilet
that takes on people like that. That's the nature of homicide.
Have you got any cases and then you spend a
long time in homicide cases that stick with stick with you.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah. I just think sometimes you come across case and
they're just needless, like homicide, they're just needless. One people said,
I was anything that stick in your mind that you
saw that has an effect, and the one one does
And it's a scene where you think this isn't real
and it's a fairly simple scene. And I think it
was two thousand and eight, and this is another needless murder.
(18:02):
We're working on. An old guy. He was a truck
driver from I think Twilma Dolby area. He retires. His
interests is grayhounds. He buys his property near Kibulcher and
it's got a kennel's for grayhand it's a bit of
a training track. That's his hobby. His wife had died
of cancer and I know in his bedroom he had
(18:23):
his wife's favorite dress and it used to hang there
every day. That's when he woke up he saw his
wife's favorite dress. Anyway, how long story short, he bought
this property. Unbeknown to him, a drug dealer used to
own it beforehand and had secreted drugs in walls. These
crooks go, they think the drug dealer is still there.
Getting there cost him one of the fellows. I'll say
(18:46):
his name. He's doing life for murder. Rocky Coombs shoots
him in the head. Well, there was just needless. They
had the wrong person. This pile man in his retirement
doing his hobby, gets murder in his home. Now we're
up there at Kucher working on that at the time,
and it was New Year's I'm pretty sure it was
Newye's day. Get a phone calls there looks like a
(19:07):
kid's being murdered at Briby Island, which is down the Raid.
And I go there and I go it's a house
that was rendered for as a holiday house. I walk
in the room the scenes of crime guy and what
on the bed is this ten year old girl. She
had all her hair hacked and cut back, and she's
just laying there with a huge knife out of her chest,
(19:29):
just lying there's still with this big knife and I'm
looking at it and on scenes of crime and I said,
it doesn't look real, you know. As it turned out,
the father of that child had bad mental health issues
and got caught later and murder. The girl had some
you know, thinking she's a demon and all this type
of stuff, but that you know, when you're doing a
(19:49):
senseless murder. And then you get to see that within
days later once we've sold it because we had sold
the other one, and then you go and see that
kid lying there with a knife of that, you think, well,
what the hell is that? You know? And I suppose that.
I don't think I've had a lot of things that
affect me, but it's there's some things that I think.
(20:10):
And then the other thing I did when I was
in the territory, there was these people are being in
a dobeman that was vicious and no one could get
near that. It was like an acre block. They bamused
and left this poor dog there was emaciated. RSPCA couldn't
get near it. They were trying to dart it, but
it was just too vicious, and then we had to
shoot it. Not to shoot this dog dead, but I thought, well,
(20:30):
assholes do that to an animal, you know, then the
coppers have to come and shoot the porn Almy was
doing nothing wrong. You know. It seems such a vast
extremity of incidents that stick in your head, but it's bizarre.
But there's things like that, and I one thing, it's
if I see someone being cruel to a dog, I
really stop and crop and if they don't stop, I'll
(20:53):
say something. You know, it's funny, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's funny things that stick with you. But the way
that you described that, I underst seeing where you're coming from.
Like with homicide, sometimes you get there, just deal with
a job, but it accumulates and you think that's a
waste of time. And I had I had periods of
time in my career too when the fan and ring
and you think, I don't want to go out and
(21:15):
just see zee someone dead. But that that was the
that was the nature of the work. You spent a
long time in homicide. But then you went to yeah,
well you've paid your dues because you've worked in some
tough places. But you ended up on the Sunshine Case.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I certainly as to get told I had the best
job in Queensland.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, And I used to tell people that don't wait
for the job to be advertised, you just locked yourself
And I did. I spent I think ten nearly ten
nearly eleven years.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
There And what was your what was your role there?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah? I was the IC in charge of the Sunshine
Case CB. It's a pretty big area. You had CBS
at Clownder and amble Roochie Door Nusa Kwana, so you
had a big area and we had a good team
and it's a busy place. It's a very busy, big
tourist influx, but a very supportive community and I think
(22:09):
that's still today. And that part of that media stuff there,
I used to do it a lot because those young journals,
that's their business. They need stuff. And I thought it
was a good way to tell the community or here
we've arrested this guy, or we need your help with this.
This is an outcome. Please don't scams are happening. You know,
I don't listen to these phone calls.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It was a way of working with the community, which
was as I said, was and I think it still
is a good supportive community of police.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So that was well. I think the media should be
looked at as a tool that supports and enhances personally
sending messages out, giving them warnings, giving the confidence that yeah,
the police are on top of this. It's an important role.
But the beauty of that position not it only is
a good location, but you've got to keep your hand
in criminal investigation and in part experits on people there.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Look and look part of that, and I said, there
was quite a You know, sexual offenses occur, happens in
every community, but I just like to see an outcome
for that as soon as possible. You know you're going
to have sexual assaults, and some of them are through
There wasn't a lot of sexual assaults like where people
are just attack walking down the street, but you want
(23:25):
them not to happen as well. And when we did
clear up an older sexual assault matter through DNA for
a sexual offender who was in jail in New South
Wales and he'd also done one in South Australia, we
managed to get him to clean him up and we
talked earlier. We managed to transfer in prison to Queensland
and get him to deal with But you know what,
(23:46):
that's it brings an outcome, even after allmen of them years,
there's an outcome for someone instead of them. I wonder
what happened to that guy that did that to me,
and then all of a sudden the outcome that must
be better than nothing. And you use that as avention
thing as well as Hey, these offenders are out there.
And I used to go to meetings I was part
(24:06):
of a team from the hospital nurses and to better
support victims of sexual assault. And there was a very
good supporting agency at the cost for counseling and what
have you, but also as a brand new hospital Sunshine Case,
and there was a designated area for examinations because obviously
(24:27):
DNA is a very important evidence and the way it's
collected and how the victims, that initial treatment of the
victim is very important, and to try and get them
in a facility where they don't have to sit in
accident emergency exactly, and we can go on this prior
to go a back entrance into the hospital in the
A and E. And so I was part of the
crowd that got that and make sure we get that
(24:49):
support full of victims. As I said, I got two daughters,
so it yeah, I just and I remember as a
young Blake, if there was like a girl she was
a bit intoxicated or something, and there lectures hanging around,
and we used to protect them, you know. And I
don't know if it probably does happen now with.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Pim, but still I think it still happens.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah exactly, But you know, I suppose that's just that's
just me. What I grew up with that.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, they're the values that's been still exactly the values
that we all should have. With the one you were
talking about the South Australia and New South Wales and
the DNA. Talk us through that one. How were they linked?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, that was a sexual solo that in a unit
at Ruchie Door and I think look, I think it
was about like nineteen ninety four or something like that
when the database, you know, you started to develop around
the national data they re random again and it came
up and then we found out he'd gone to South
(25:47):
Australian pleaded with some and they're very similar type of circumstances.
And yeah, one of the detective sergeant and he did
that before he retired. We really pushed that and he
got that done and got him back. And because I'd
done that, Eric Maray transfer. There's not a lot of
coppers understand that Interstate Transfer of Prisoners Act exists, which
all the states are signatures to. So I had all
(26:10):
the reports about that, so he's able to follow that
process because it's a bit daunting to some, but we
managed to get it done and got him back and pleaded,
you know, twenty something years later thirty years later, so's
you can put the effort in still later and get
a result.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And it does help. So what other type of crimes
are you dealing with on the Sunshine Case Because you've
gone from the wild West in Northern Territory and then
homicide and all the horror and things that homicide bring.
We've talked sexual assaults on the Sunshine Case. What are
the other type of contemporary Because you've been retired what
(26:47):
two years now?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I had to retire at sixty in twenty twenty two.
I kept working, doing a bit of work, as you know.
But the other thing then I think was a victim
of technology. Some Shine Case twenty percent are probably over
sixty five year old something like that. So we had
a lot of older people. They're subjective scams and what
(27:10):
have you. So that was a real focus and hence
that what happened that day at the Tackle was about
a fraud batter and it's prevention and trying to educate
older people, especially who aren't that I failed. You know
a lot of older people are they take people on
face grant, they don't think everyone's coming with you, And
I were thinking, this guy's talking to me. I don't know,
(27:30):
I'll be thinking the words he's trying to scam me
or rip me off or you know where people older
people don't have that. No, they take everyone face well,
that they're one.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
First. I've had conversations that weren't embarrassed with my mum,
but they sounded very nice on the Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And so a lot of that crime prevention was about that,
and there was there was women there that got scammed
romance schems. You know. One had been used to buy
one hundred and thirty third thousand dollars land Cruiser and
then they stopped another company. There was nearly a loss
of a million dollars. They managed to intercept it. This
(28:07):
woman had been news for that. She lost her car.
But it's hard to once I go that far, it's
hard to bring them back, you know, they just can't
see it. And prevention is a big thing. So that
was a big focus for me at the Sunshine Coast
for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Okay, now you mentioned the sixty year retirement in Queensland place.
We don't have that in New South Wales. I'm not
sure other jurisdictions, but it's correct me if I'm wrong,
Because our good mate Howard Hickey. He retired, but he
went back and he could do some work. You could
work part time. What's the process there. Yeah, I think
(28:45):
that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, and I think it's coming back in there. There's
a lot of Look recently, I was doing work in
our ethical Standards area where it was just working in
relation to staff members in discipline areas, so I had
no powers of please, I did no criminal aspects. And
how I'd actually got a job as an administration officer
working in the cold case team and because they had
(29:06):
knowledge of a lot of the old cases makes sense exactly.
And for what you're going to be paid at that level,
there's not a lot of money. And otherwise you're going
to be paying detective sergeant a lot of money on
shift work to do the same thing what Howard could
have been doing as a And that was the idea
about it, and I think they're starting to come around that,
And certainly the Queen's and Police with ethic a Stands
(29:29):
area have a staff member investigation group that focuses solely
on staff members non criminal and the police don't have
to be doing it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
We've got a shortage of police across the country, And
I always think, and I know you guys experienced the
same thing and other jurisdictions, that the amount of non
police work that you're actually doing recording keeping, records recorded,
not records about the criminal investigation, but management type stuff.
Or yeah, you're a homicide detective. I don't know about you,
(30:00):
but as yeah, senior homicide detect if. I spent a
lot of time in front of the failure copier because
I had the failure copy of briefs because there was
no one to fail their copy of brief Just a
simple thing like that would free a lot of people up.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Exactly. Like we talked about how Hickey liked doing his
role there. He could go through an old file because
he experienced he can do a summary to an investigator.
Say that investigator reading it for two weeks and he
can find all the old statements. He can find everything
and put its important, there is some avenues here, or
if some information come in, he would say, yeah, that
information relates to this statement, all this statement, and it's
(30:36):
cost effective and like you could do it. Like we
talked about fraud briefly, a lot of stuff to do
with fraud investigations could be done by a retired cop.
You know, they need a serving cop on shiftwork to
do that.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm with you, and I think that's we've
got to move forward, have that flexibility because it's you know,
people retire from the police and all that experience is lost.
And yeah, Howard going through it a murder brief, the
amount of experience he brings just there. Yeah, literally literally
cases could get solved because you've got someone that knows
(31:08):
what they're doing. There just a general question here with policing.
Do you think the crooks have got the advantage or
the cops have got the advantage in this DNA compared
to when we joined.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I think it was I think it's coming back around.
We started to gain the advantage back around, Like the
crooks start to get better represented and at our expense,
and not that they're not entitled to it, but I
don't think as some of those defense laws were thinking ahead,
what's the best outcomeing we get for this guy? And
(31:42):
just but we've got technology came around on our side, then,
you know what I mean to it. I think they
brought the advantage back around, not just DNA, but just technology.
GPS's movement of phones and tracking and different things like
that security, the security cameras everywhere that never used to
be anywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I had an experienced defense list of the Greg Gould
on the podcast recently and I was asking him because
he'd been in the courts bashing up on cops for
for the years and defend defending people. He said his observations,
the world's changed a little bit in it in our
early days in playing clothes, a lot hinged on what
(32:23):
we said, what we saw, because that was the evidence
that was presented to the court. So you spent a
lot of time in the witness box. But he said
police aren't spending as much time in the witness box
because basically the brief is supported by forensic evidence, whether
it be CCTV footage or telephone records that type of
thing or the DNA. So it's changing face there, isn't.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
It it is? And look now if you have always
a committal hearing, they've got to nominate why they want
that winness to be cross examinle Whereas years ago I
just expected we want him him and him, and yeah,
you know, and you would. I've got an old murder
case still from the Gold Cup Hugo Bench was murdered
there in the nineties that we've charged an offender with that,
(33:05):
and that's still ongoing. I'd been to a vard. I
was there for two days in the box getting hammred
by a barrister and I'm looking at the guys charged
with that in the background like an idiot. But that's
the way it is. But what I noticed to Gary,
when you retire, you don't have to be so conforming
(33:25):
to them. So I was, to be honest with you, I
was given it back to this barrister because I wasn't
copper his rubbish anymore, but copper anymore? What are they
going to do to me? So that's still ongoing. But yeah,
I think a lot of the time of the processes
have changed and there's a lot of coppers now. Even
detectives would have several years experience. You say, have you
(33:47):
ever given everything a trial? And they go, no, I
hadn't even been there.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
It scares me because unless you've been there, and then
unless you've you've got the battle scars from the local
court made and learning this box. Like I would see
people go in where they haven't got the experience into
a murder trial, and I think you Paul Barstards, you
have no idea what you're about to walk into. And
there's it's in theater. It's intimidation that's making you look
(34:15):
at in front of in front of the jury. I
think we've done away with committal hearings to the extent
that in New South Wales, and I remember how much
time it felt like you had two trials, didn't it
because the defense would go for drag the committal out,
make some more money, find the weakness in the police case,
(34:35):
and then you'd be doing it again down the track
in the trial a couple of years later. Now you
didn't completely retire from policing or criminal investigation because you
around the same time that you woul due to retire
from Queensland, you got an offer or your approach to
work on the war crimes investigation. I'm not sure how
(34:55):
much you can say about that, but.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I have got secrecy agreements with the old A special
investigator was formed because of the Afghanistan. What I'm telling
is this common knowledge in the media, and I was
able to apply for a circondment, had to do an
application selection interview and what have you, and I ended
up going there in June which was about six or
(35:17):
seven months before I was due to retire, So I
took that as ayconoment, still working for Queensland Police and
as I said, I was going to have to retire
in the following January anyway, and that was good. So
I did that for nearly three years. Interesting work. But
it was more like because it was a homicide I
had a homicide background as well. It was really murder
(35:40):
investigations with specific limitations obviously, where it was what the
evidence you did or didn't have, and things like that
following that inquiry. But I still found it interesting. You know,
I did cop a bit of flack off some people sometimes,
you know about the fact that you were trying to
essentially lock up our war heroes. Yeah, you got those
(36:02):
and that's fair enough. I get that, And they didn't
have an understanding of what it was about. Either side
just took that on facevailue and didn't you didn't react
to it. I got that.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, it is a contentious issue, but it could be
looked at in different ways. You're not trying to lock
them up, you're looking at the CFA's evidence. Yeah, seeing
where the truth lies could assist as much as it
could could hinder, but yeah, I would imagine that it
would polarize people and it would be a difficult thing.
But you enjoyed that, you kept stimulated your mind on what.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
You exactly and like our guys and a team had
a good team, and even some of the soldiers that
were subject the matter and obviously not going to name anybody,
I think they had that perception of what we are
who were But when they spoke the investigator Lucky I
had very experienced homicide people team at Queensland Homicide, Victorian Homicide,
(36:58):
their experienced New South while Intel an AFP officer like
I had a really good team. And when they spoke
to these people, the subjects of those investigations, I think
they had a different view afterwards because I could see
that we're just doing a job and that we treated
them fairly.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
It wasn't which.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Exactly right, and so I think overall, you know, it's
still ongoing, so obviously limited to what we say. But I,
for myself, personally, I thought it was good. I've been
coming to Sydney off and on for that many years,
so living here for a couple of years and just
being like a fIF back to the Sunshine case wasn't
(37:39):
such a bad option.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, yeah, I want to just get a sense, like
a criminal investigation, what qualities And yeah, I'm not pissing
in your pocket here that you're a good detective. I'm
interested in what qualities you see that makes a good detective.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
I think we talked about a communication. You've just got
to talk to people, and every persons different and you've
got to you've got to quickly realize what this person
will want talk about, or what they're like, or what
attitude they've got a view, and you've got to change
your vocabulary, change everything, change the way you're looking at,
change what you So let's go and sit down here
(38:21):
and just do you want a coffee? Mate? All of
a sudden, it's a different scenario, and you know you're
not just some copper having this regulated type of conversations
to someone. Those type of skills are the biggest skills communication,
and you can't You're not going to learn that at
the police academy. You're not going to learn it. You'll
get told how about interviewing and learn from psychologists about
(38:44):
you know, people dealing with people. Sure, you get that background,
but those skills, they're learned. They're learned, and I think
maybe it's a type of character you are. You know,
like like you are in a pub probably anywhere when
I was a young black and talk to the old
tanks to me about anything, you know what I mean,
And if they weren't a bug, if he wanted to
talk about this, or talk about football, I'd ever talked
(39:06):
to him about or whatever it might have been. So
I think you do have some natural skills that you
bring in that some people don't.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Well, it's amazing what you the type of people that
you get to deal with as a detective. If you
spent a long time there that you're literally speaking the
heads of state royalty down to the local junkie on
the street exactly and the whole range in between, and
you've got to be able to communicate at their level.
(39:36):
I always thought that was important that yeah, not judging people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And also there's another thing too I was thinking of
quite honestly, you've got to have a better guts. You've
got to have a bit of moral courage because not
everyone's going to like it. Not everyone's going to want
to talk to you, and crooks are like dingoes. They'll
smell fere and uh good, that's my my thoughts. I've
always believed that that they smell fear, and the moment
(40:03):
they smell fear, I'll try and walk all over you.
And you've got to have that type of front where
you're show that you're not. You might be thinking this
guy is huge. If he starts knuck on me, I'm
going to have to do him invest But unless you've
got that thought process, oh you're half prepared for it.
But they will smell fear, and you've got to it's
(40:24):
your demeanor whether you can overcome that as well. So
you've got to have a bit of moral courage and.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
The way definitely the way you carry carry yourself. And
you see it suit with some people, and it might
be a young detective coming in and there's this whole
crook that spent more time in an interview room than
the cop has, and you can see the balance is
not right. You've got to be able to take criticism
as a cop too. And I saw people really take
(40:51):
it personally that we go to court and you'd be criticized,
but we've done nothing wrong. Why are we getting criticized.
You've got to be a little bit robust. You've got
to believe in what you're doing and prepared to take
the people who are going to throw shit back at exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Look, I've had plenty of beers with barrasses after getting
a hiding off them or and have a period of time.
They'd say, listen, you're going to get I'm going to
hammer you about this, but we'll never be later, and
that's that's that's fair. And but you're right. And sometimes
you'd be getting cross examined about something and you're thinking,
I wish I'd have done that, or it's a learning
(41:28):
it's a learning process. You never stop learning. You just
never stop learning. But take take a positive away and
go okay. And sometimes you've got to own your mistakes. Yeah, okay,
Yeah I made a mistake. Oh yeah, acknowledge if you're
getting hammer by embarrassed as you know, and you go
you acknowledge a mistake. Yeah I could have done that.
I probably should have take the Well that's the end of.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
It when you're arguing and just not an inch. Yeah,
but that that comes comes with experience. I got to say,
with some of the barrisses that I'd go up against
during my court time, I've had them here on the podcast,
and I've got to begrudgingly say, and I say that
half jokingly, that they improved me as a detective because
(42:11):
I'd come up against them and I go, I'd prepare
as much as I could walk in there, and they
the moment that I opened my mouth, they asked me
a question. I think, Fuck, that's a good question. Why
didn't I think I think of that? But Okay, that's
what I've learned. So each time you up skills. So
some of the people that I didn't like in early
parts of my career, I've got a credit with credit
(42:32):
them with helping me development.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
They helped your self improvement because you were in a
way to the next investigation. Remember what you got hamm
about last time. I'm not going to make that mistake again,
or I'm going to do things a little bit different.
And I'm going to ask this peanut some other things
that I was getting hammon about last time. You know,
it's a learning curve.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yeah, and you're tight and tighten your gamer.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
And you shouldn't take it personally. That's that you should get.
And a lot of young ones do they think they're getting.
They get a subject of it, and they I could
still go up to any Barris and I have a
talk to him later and ask him something. But some
of the young ones didn't have that. I said, you
just got to accept them.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
It's almost it might be a generational thing, but it's
almost like shock. How did someone criticize me? Well, yeah,
that's part and parcel of the job. You've chosen through
your career. Got some awards and you've got the Australian
Police Medal, and that's that's a fairly impressive award for
(43:32):
services to the community like above and beyond them the people.
There's a lot of great cops that have got that award.
But you also got the Queensland Women in Policing Award.
And we're very open minded here, Darren, but how did
you get the woman.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
The Queensland one was a recognition, but then I think
it was the following year or something like that. I
got the Australian that QUAP Women Australian Women and Policing
Award for a champion of change.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Okay, okay, having to get maybe it's the way you tackled.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Or I've got plenty over it.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Because I was preparing for this, I know a lot
about you, but I'm flicking through it. How did you
get that all? So you explained it just on record.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
When I was a Sanshine Coast particularly, I had some
part time female officers there. They just do a great job,
and I know how they struggle with kids and get
themself to work, kids sick, and I a good relations
with them because I think it was the way I
treated them they hadn't been used to maybe previously. And
(44:41):
I know when they got to work if they had
to be late, or they couldn't they couldn't drop their
kid to the child as he's sick. That to make
some under rangers they're not going to be there at
five d eight, They're going to be there at quarter
past date. So bit. But they would work extremely hard,
even for the ones doing part time, and I recognized that.
And even though I was in the territory to work
with female detectives, especially when I was young and when
(45:04):
I first went to the branch, the old detective sergeants
didn't want to work with the female detectives. That was
the way it was, and I'd always end up working
with them, especially the sexual assault matter, as we're always
doing it was a bit of old school. The female
detectives interview the female victim, I do the trouble trying
to round up the offender and what have you. But
(45:24):
I work really nice to see how they managed ship
work with children and all that. And I appreciated that
I struggled themself to get myself to work lettlone have
to manage two kids, and even if they were married
and everything. Women looked at the kids better than men,
especially back then, and I just had an appreciate of it.
That award I didn't know I was getting nominated, was
(45:46):
nominated by the girls that worked in my well there
at the Sunshine Coast and another officer they nominated me
for it, and.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Well at old Jakes aside, I think you should be
proud of that. I really do, because what you've said
is so true and I see and we don't have
enough women in certainly criminal investigation because of the type
of things you're talking about. And if you can give
them that little bit of assistance and it doesn't cost anything,
(46:19):
of course, and to me create a happy work environ.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
A pressure off them. Yeah, not to have say they
say I'll buy some I'm sorry, I'm going to be
ten minutes like that. You don't need to apologize when
they come in and say come when you can. Don't
worry about ring up and getting stressed out, you know
what I mean, There's no need. We'll send me a
text hey kids sick, be late. That's it.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
That's the way. And it's that old school thinking going, oh,
that's why women shouldn't be in the cops. They add
to every investigation I've been on. If I have a
woman on the strike force, it gives a balance. Otherwise
you've got buffhead blokes thinking one way. And quite often
discussions you have with the difficult investigations of woman's perspective
(47:03):
on it quite often change it changes you're thinking.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Look when I got that award and it was a
functioning pin, I didn't expect that.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
What frock did you wear there?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
And I had I was quite quite a good as
I said, I didn't expect that to get it at all,
and it was a bit of a shock and I'd
had nothing prepared. And the same thing I talked about, Well,
one of the ladies I used to work with, and
Angie Smith now she was Angie Brad Then I remember
we're going out for a sexual assault. We're going back
to her place, so I'm just going to get a
(47:35):
husband and given my a hand with the kids. We'll
go back, have a cup tea and a bit of
taste or something, and then we'll go back and try
and tidy things up. I think we'd locked the offender
up as well. And I remember sitting on the couch
with her son, David. He was probably three or four,
and he said something to me and I said this,
and I said, I don't know what he said. And
I said, oh, and I made it. I'm pretty tired.
(47:56):
And he said, you're not pretty come back from that.
And and even as your name, my nickname was Edouard.
And even the homicide guy from Victoria that worked Mere
in Sydney, we saw that award, he just what a
load of rubbish, you know, And he used to give
(48:17):
me and I used to enjoy seeing him afraid of
my award every now and then, you know. And when
they used to advertise nominees for that, I said, you're
going to nominate for that? Anyway? I was talking about
that news Wills Intel also we had there. She's a champion, Chris.
She she's now switched OVERFP but she's about five foot nothing, thin,
(48:41):
Greek heritage, very fiery, and we used to stir up
and we didn't have to try hard. And she used
to fire up and especially Josh and said, I was going,
why don't you go and see your champion and change?
And she used to be my biggest defender, you know.
But it was about that relationship that you developed. And
(49:02):
you know, they used to take photos office in there,
and when I finished the three guys we got, I
got the same shirt from this manufacturer. We we got
the same shirt and we all photograph and they put
photos up in the wall and Eduarde champion a change.
And then well that's the other thing about that. And
I probably said that to you. I said, I had
(49:22):
to explain my whole life why I was called Eduarda
and that still happens now. So Eduard, I think I
sent you the photo of it was a photo that fart.
I think it was about nineteen eighty eight, and you
can see I look you for all intents my grandfather
mum so I was Maltese, but I look like I'm
(49:43):
some Spanish tourists or something. Yeah, exactly in here. And
I was a bit old, especially in the territorial as years. Anyway,
I think it was in Mackay. I'd come there and
cost me from the territory and I looked still looked
a bit like that. And there was a guy that
had a business up there, Edward Pool, the pool maintenance. Anyway,
(50:05):
there's the clues to call me the pool clean Anyway,
Someone's typing their running shots in and then they'd always
I'd put Edwards slash you know whoever, Smith or whatever,
and anyway they'd always get rid of the s and
put oath and the bosses comes out the freaking elles
Eduardo and just it went on and on went over
(50:25):
the years, and no one knew me in Brisbane, and
then everyone thought my name was actually Eduarda and I
had that photo and that just stuck with me for years.
Well people didn't even know my real name.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Well well, well deserved with the massage look undercover Spanish
Spanish cop. I saw a photo of you too online
somewhere sitting on the Harley, but I'm not sure that.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Was Dar And that was right on the blancs. I
was in a group there, a tactical intel group where
we used to a lot of intel and target the
bikes up there at the time. That's what that was.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yeah right, Okay, well you've you've had a had a
great career, would you would you recommend it for others?
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I've had funny, I've had mixed feelings, and I change.
I probably change a bit on that. Sometimes when my
daughter's younger, if they said, oh, I joined the police,
or so I don't, please don't. Now I'm probably a
little bit different. I still think there, especially if they're intelligent,
because my daughter's a universe as you have a very
good position qualifications, I think there's better opportunity. I used
(51:33):
to see a lot of ones doing UNI that used
to use the police as a bit of a stepping
stone to maybe something else. Understand that, you know, years
ago we used to have a job and we just
have that job for forty years, and you know the
young ones. Now I think seven years as the long
as someone spends in the same job. It's changed. Yeah,
but now I think I think it's difficult, especially the focus.
(51:58):
The DV stuff is really hard, and the job is harder.
Everyone's filming you at the moment you two and you're
using body warm camera. You've got to think. But having
said that. I think young people are more educated than
probably you and I were. I didn't even finish grade twelve,
you know what I mean, went to tafe, did a
(52:18):
trade course. You know my focus. I wanted to be
a bricklayer. That was what I wanted. Yeah, it was
a great, a huge aspiration.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
That would have been tough. Although now you'd probably be doing.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Bricking and my brother's are built tough gig and I
saw my brother Ago and he's his bodies He's two
years younger than me and his body is really suffering. Yeah,
so I don't know. At this day and age, I
think maybe it is a good option. And the money
is pretty good, so at least it's a starting and
(52:55):
there are avenues to go. I think it's look, not
everyone's going to be want to be a street copper
and doing that for that and they don't cope with
shift work and all the rest of them. And if
I'm on a bit gay to frauds squad and that's good.
You see, you be a fraudsquad detective, sit in the
air conditioning seven point five hours of the day and
(53:17):
build a brief and that's what you're okay, But I
think there is avenues for people a bit more than
what you and I would have looked.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I'd like them to make it because you talked about yeah,
we signed up and it was basically, Okay, this is
what I'm doing for the rest of my life, and
you said the seven year mark is where people tend
to change careers. I reckon if we could make police
in a little bit more flexible, so you could love
take a couple of years off and come back and
do a refresher course if legislations change, or up skill
(53:47):
and get your firearms practices in place. You should be
able to take time and then come back and rejoin
and not have to start at the bottom again. I
think that would encourage people because it's almost like, Okay,
if I'm going to sign up for this, I'm going
to have someone telling me what to do for the
rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
Yeah, there is there is a bit of flex There
should be flexible. I agree, because I see some coppers
that leave to go and do something else and then
that's not that great and the money is like and actually,
you know, I think I'm better off back at the cops.
I think they shouldn't It shouldn't be hard to do
that it shouldn't be hard. It shouldn't be made hard.
And that's a way of getting numbers back and keeping
(54:25):
that maintaining that, you know, trying to stop that attrition
rate set of just know you're gone now and you've
got to apply and crawl over hot coals to try
and come back. It shouldn't be like that. Shouldn't Yeah,
it should be you know, when you have an exit interview,
we're sorry to see you go. You'll have a job
here if you come back, you'll have a job here. Mate.
What will do We can just put you through a
(54:47):
week of FoST firearm and tactical training get your back,
but we'll go through some education. We'll have something set
up on a course at the academy. We have these
rolling all the time. You know, it's not that hard.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
And you don't forget, like if you've done something for
a long time, you don't forget, and you could come
back into it. Yeah, I think that could be the
future of policing because everyone's struggling to attract police and
maybe we just need that flexibility. But look, we might
wrap it up here, Darren. I just want to say
I enjoyed when we got to work together, had great times,
(55:22):
and I totally respect the type of cop that you
are and also thank you on behalf of the communities
that you've served and the work that you've done, and
you've done it with a lot of dignity to.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yeah, look, I appreciate it. And as I said, I
wasn't pissing your pocket. It's good to have stayed in
contact with you and have that friendly basis and that
it's really encouraging. And so many people talk about the
podcast work that you've done, and everyone can relate to it,
but it gives an opportunity to people. That gives opportunity
for other people to listen and hear it in a
(55:55):
relaxed format and we're not governed by I can't talk
about that, I can't talk about this. I think that's
really good and I think it does Yeah, you know yourself,
it does have help to talk about those things. So
I think there it has been a good opportunity for
me to come and see you and talk about it
because I don't get an often, but I'm sure my
partner gets sick of me telling a war stories. I
(56:17):
remember this, you think in Darwen in nineteen ninety one
and he's looking at me, and I don't think. I
don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Yeah, we probably should put a shout out to the
partners of police.
Speaker 2 (56:29):
That, you know what, I had copies of my diaries,
you know, in the back of our diary in the
territory used to write when we arrested someone, were involved
in the rest of someone, and we'd have the date
of John Smith receiving burglary whatever. And I had a
heap of from there manslaughter, man's all. And I can
remember nearly virtually remember every person. When I looked at
(56:51):
the name, I remember him.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
Well I found Bret Cown's name there, and it was
the date in whatever it was in ninety three, and
I have the page. I just put a sault in
Matthew because I think it was Matthew is the name
of the young boy that was right, okay, And I'm thinking, wow,
there it is there. And there was another matter I
(57:14):
was trying to think of, grimly, this guy is a
sexual asault young girl. Anyway, I found it is here,
you know, but I still had them. It was funny,
you know. I was showing some of my partner and
I could just see she was glazing over, so I
don't really get an opportunity to talk to people much.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
They won't listen. That's exciting. They haven't told you the
end yea further than a thousand times. I've been there
and done that. Well, thanks all the best of your retirement.
I'm sure you're enjoying yourself. Last time I spoke to
you were out on your your surf ski battling on
the on the river. So yeah, good good luck.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Thanks for the invitation and thanks for the opportunity and
your staff member as well.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Love the Fund. Nine
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