May 31, 2025 • 59 mins
One moment Cheng Lei was off to work, the next she was arrested, blindfolded and forced into a prison cell. For almost three years, Lei endured psychological torture after she was wrongly accused of being a spy. Locked in a padded cell, the journalist was under constant surveillance, with two guards never leaving her side. The lights never turned off, eerie Beethoven music was played every morning and she was only allowed to say five sentences a day. It was a horror Lei thought would never end.
This episode contains mentions of suicide and family violence, if you need support contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or 1800 737 732.
Cheng Lei: My Story premieres Tuesday June 3 at 7:30pm AEST on Sky News Australia
Stream at SkyNews.com.au or download the Sky News Australia app
Cheng Lei: A Memoir Of Freedom by Cheng Lei will be published by HarperCollins on Wednesday, June 4 and is available to pre-order now.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life. The average person has never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
(00:45):
I had a fascinating conversation with Australian journalist Cheng Lei,
who was detained for years in the Chinese prison for
supposedly endangering China's national security. We talked about life, her career,
and the inhumane treatment she suffered whilst in uted. Chang
Lai amaze me not only by a resilience but a
sense of humor in the face of adversity. Have her
(01:06):
listen to a story and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
She's a very cool lady with a good take on life.
Chang Lai, I'm excited to have you on the podcast. Hi.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Gary, it's a privilege to be here and meet you
because I read your book while in detention and shared
it with my cell mates.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well, that's very cool. We might talk about that a
little bit later on, but I'm glad I catch Kill
has found its way into a cell in China.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
A place so secret you can't google a picture.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, there you go. I should have put a file
or something in the book for you to help you escape.
At twenty twenty, I, like everyone else in this country,
heard about your arrest and being detained in China, and
I remember thinking that would probably be the worst place
you'd want to be, caught up in a system, a
(01:55):
system that we don't fully understand, in a communist country
in prison. How was it for you?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I experienced all the power that the Chinese state
has firsthand, and as you say, it's I don't know
if it's the worst. I haven't been in jail in
Russia or Cuba or Venezuela or maybe other countries or
North Korea. But as far as I know, it's probably
(02:27):
that ultimate mix of extreme organization, extreme paranoia, and a
unique insight into what tortures people mentally, because that's what
you're talking about with state security incarceration. It's about breaking
(02:47):
your mind as opposed to breaking your body, which for foreigners,
I don't think that would happen any physical violence.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So and we will talk about what you were put through,
and it was so logical torture of the extreme, I
would suggest, But it's also what we've had on eye
catch killers. And I'm sure you know them. Sean Turnbull
and Kylie Moore.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Gilbert my good friends. Imagine elite club of jailbirds.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I'd love to be at the dinner party with you.
You you international spies, a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Of prison envy. What you had tea in you run
so jealous.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So you compare it comparing those a little bit. I
found with both, and both Sean and Kylie that the
way that they caped I was quite amazed. And I
finished finished your book and again reading a lot of
light red well the Human Spirit, and that's what came
(03:50):
across in your book, The Human Spirit. How all these
things set up to break you, but you you're still
hanging in there, and maintain you umanity too. I think
that would be difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I think it's better to focus on other people rather
than yourself all the time, so not eaten up by
the misery. When I tried to empathize with the guards,
when I even tried to see what made the officers tick,
even when they were interrogating me in the most awful way,
(04:27):
or when I tried later intertention to help myself mates,
that really helped me to know that everyone hurts, everyone suffers,
and if I can make the tiniest bit of difference
to someone else, then my suffering is eased.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Easy to say, probably harder to do. I can only
imagine the frustration of being in prison for something that
you haven't done and almost feel what you have helpless.
It'd be screamed shouting the walls.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Well it's not something I haven't done. They can always
accuse you of something that you have done and say
that it is a crime. But what they really wanted
we still don't know. But as far as the facts
stack up, is to slap Australia in the face.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, And do you think in part what happened to you,
that was caught up in all the political agendas and
the bilateral relationships between Australia and China for the time while.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Because the day in, day out bashing me over the
head that I am guilty, that what I did was
so horrible. After a while I did get Stockholm syndrome.
But later when I saw obviously when I was in there,
I didn't know anything anything that was happening outside or
(05:56):
how people felt or what they said or what they did.
But now looking at everything that's happened, things that were
revealed to my lawyer, for example, and the dates the
date on which they started surveiling me, which is three
days after three or four days after Australia called for
(06:21):
that inquiry into the source of COVID and China started
like on that day arrested the ex deputy head at
the time. He was the deputy head of police, who
had studied in Australia, who was also the man in
charge of cleaning up Uhan right and had still had
(06:43):
family in Australia. So that's that's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And it almost sets it up as a bargaining chip
in a way for negotiations.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And also maybe paranoia that I was somehow related to
him and not related but associated with him. And to
this day, nobody's going to come out and admit why
exactly they did what they did what they did, but
(07:14):
the lines of questioning and they must have thought I
was somehow a spy.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What with the interrogation.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Well, now, I mean you've read some of the exchanges
right like where is your grandma Springvale Cemetery?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
They were clutching at straw as I look from a
prosecution point of view, trying to find find something something
on you. But okay, you're not an international spy. Will
establish that. That's that's the same thing that Kylie said,
in the same thing that Shaun said.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And if I am, please send me some money.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
We've actually had an international spy on the on the podcast,
Jeffrey twice, and he was worked for DGS, the French spy,
and he never did time in jail, but he actually
looked like a spy and he can fly a fire,
a plane and all sorts of things. At times I
can't even reverse park. I read that in your book,
(08:11):
but your children captured it on video with your kids,
and you've also got another one that you probably share
common not common interest. That's the wrong way common experiences.
Peter Gressi as well. Yes, it was locked up in
Egypt for journalists. And I saw his movie on the
(08:32):
Weekend Correspondent and at the end of the movie they
talk about I think the figures were in excess of
four hundred journalists in prison in over forty five countries
at the moment. So did you consider it an occupational hazard,
like working as an Australian citizen working in working in China.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think when I started working in journalism in China,
it was a very different vibe, very different period. It
was two thousand and two and China had just entered
the wto China wanted all things foreign. It wanted foreign talent,
(09:12):
it wanted foreign investment, We wanted foreign brands, Yes, absolutely,
And even the Chinese leader at the time would show
off his English and sing Elva songs when he went
to visit the US. That's not to say that there
was actual a lot of political opening up, but you
could see seeds here and there, and you could see
(09:34):
them being allowed to sprout a little before sometimes they
are quashed. And it was of course we didn't have
the technology that China didn't have the technology has now
for the extreme surveillance and the internet censorship. So ironically
(09:54):
it was a freer time.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Right, Okay, So in that environment you didn't get the
sense of some think like what happened to you could
happen No, because there was a lot of encouragement. Can
we're going to talk about your life but also your experiences,
but can we just break down what you're actually convicted of?
What were the offense? So when we're talking about that,
people understand exactly the nature of the crime.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Supplying state secrets to an overseas entity organization.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And that was in the form of a text message
or that's where the.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Which I sent on WeChat and which I never deleted
because I didn't think it was a state secret. It was.
It's called the Premier's Work Report, which in Australian terms
is kind of like the budget, and in it it
talks about the previous year's economic growth and sets a
(10:49):
target for the coming year. And in twenty twenty it
didn't set a target and had a nine million jobs target.
Those were the eight words that I texted my friend
who worked at Bloomberg, who is a Chinese citizen. So
it's an Australian citizen working for a Chinese organization texting
(11:11):
something to a Chinese citizen working at an American organization,
thinking that because she helps me and in turn helps
where I worked, that I help her. And she had
told me that two of her employed colleagues had been
let go because they didn't match Voiters in putting out
(11:36):
that they had sport the previous year.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Okay, so you're basically trying to help a friend and
there was no malicious intent or no well I had.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
When they asked me what a state secret was at
the interrogations, I said numbers of rockets defense stuff. That
was my so so stupid and naive understanding of state security.
And I now know that is actually comprised of sixteen sectors,
(12:09):
everything from health to oceans, to culture to economic.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
All considered state secrets. Okay, So that just puts it
in context what you spent three years in prison for.
So when people are looking at you, they're not thinking
they Okay, maybe she's a spy. That's basically what it
came down to.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So many Chinese people might actually think that, yeah, well
then again, I'm just saying that because I have seen
some very very vitriolic commentary when the press release of
my book was when that came out, and things like
(12:54):
I should be shot, I should have been locked up longer.
I should have my kids taken away from me. That's
not nice, is that I am a spy and should
have known that was the cost of being a spy.
And all this is because China has manipulated the narrative
in the Chinese language to say that I am a spy.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
And you're you're in a position where you culturally understand
China because you grew up in China before you came
across to Australia. You speak the language, so you would
have had a real sense of it, and you can
I'm sensing the pain that you're describing describing now. It
must hurt because I don't think you've got any animosity
(13:37):
towards China.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Not at all, And to.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Have that type of vitriol put out about you when
you really you support China and it's turned on you,
it must be hurtful.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
This is the thing people are now completing China with
the Chinese, with the Chinese regime, and we should be compartmentalizing.
We shouldn't say, because the regime has done these awful
things that we should be racist towards Chinese people. Yeah,
Chinese Australians or overseas Chinese, and we shouldn't be saying
(14:15):
we can't celebrate the culture. Yeah, but it's a hard
thing for people to sometimes understand because they will seem entwined.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, the narrative that comes forward China. Yeah, we've got
a fear of China that this is going on, but
it's missing the point of the actual people. But you
understand the people, so you're well placed.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, but I know that many Chinese people are now
afraid that by talking to me or being my friend,
they're actually they're actually endangering their businesses or assets or
their families in China, which is so terrible.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, that that must hurt. Let's talk about your upbringing.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Happier subjects. You're a hard detective.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
It's okay, didn't mean it didn't mean to break you down.
We talk about your torture or the psychological torture over
in China, and here I am putting you in an
interview room again. Yes, but let's just know, Okay, we'll
take a step back, tell me about your childhood, because
you had a nice childhood growing up and an interesting
childhood to tell us about that time in China.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
So when I was born, we were on the cusp
of ending the Cult Revolution, which basically fucked up China
big time, and you still see some of those after
effects now. But China was about to change leaders, Marl
was about to die, and the living standards were going
to start to improve. But at the time, my parents
(15:55):
were earning something like five to six dollars a month,
and even what they did, where they lived, it was
all dependent on their families, their lineage. So if you
had nothing, then that was the best type of family,
and whereas if your family had either been educated or
(16:19):
had land or assets, then you were the worst of
the lot. So that was the whole reversal thanks to Mao.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Turn it upside down. Do you have fond memories because
you were there too. You were ten and now you
talk about swimming in the river and different things, and
it was almost like a country life that you were living.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I was in the city, but back then there wasn't
a lot of difference between the city and the countryside
in that you ate to meat very rarely. I think
once a year we would have chicken once or twice.
I remember once it was because we had guests, a
special guests. Another time it was because it was Chinese
(17:01):
New Year and this one chicken, poor chook that got killed.
You know, everything was cooked and in the choicest bits
would be given to people who were sick or it
was just Yeah, you can't imagine the scarcity of anything.
If you've got a plastic bag, you would wash it
to reuse it again and again. But that didn't stop
(17:26):
me from enjoying the childhood because there were always lots
of kids around and we would just play in nature,
just find bits of leaves and pretend, you know, playhouse
with that, or try to find a little beetle tire
string on it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I'm not going to admit to that, but I understand.
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
We didn't hurt it. Very gentle with the thread.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That type of type of childhood. Now you attend when
you came across to Australia, tell us about that experience,
because that would have been a culture shock for you
big time.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
It was a tsunami. Yeah, getting on the plane in
Guangzhou in southern China. My mum was scared that we
had too much luggage, so she made me wear two
pairs of her jeans. At the time, jeans were a
new thing in China. They were seen as the ultimate
fashion statement. Except they were all fled I think they
(18:25):
were cast offs from developed.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Countries, seventy stock that we could tell exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
So I was wearing mum's two long jeans and sitting
on this plane and not knowing what to do at all.
So when the bits of quantus food came around, Mom
and I were trying to figure out, like why is
this meat cold? Why is it unflavored? And not knowing
that the sachets of salt and pepper were to be opened.
(18:53):
And then I went to the toilet and I'm so sorry, Quantas,
but I squatted on the seat.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
That's why they have to bring in those signs toilet.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, but this was eighty five for understandable for.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
A ten year old. For a ten year old, what
it's like you go into another planet, it was yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I mean I tried to imagine it when when I
knew I would be going. But back then, what did
we know of the outside world except that you know,
there used to be the slogan that US imperialists or
paper tigers. To a kid, what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Is that good or bad?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I thought gorilla warfare was gorillas fighting when I was
growing up, so the confused this gorilla warfare. That's a
bit of a tough fighting gorillas. But anyway, we'll all
grow up and learn. So your time in Australia, So
how did you find that you ended up in Brisbane?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You well, Dad was doing his PhD at Monash to
my Nash Primary and Secondary and then in the final
year Dad went to work at the University of Queensland.
So we all moved up and I did year twelve
at Intrapilli High in Brisbane.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Okay, and you.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What a shock from Melbournian Brisbane.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Your your father was pushing you into commerce and you
studying what you were studying was not What was really
your passion.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Is that my parents are all very nerdy maths slash
physics nerdy and they used to make me do problems
from an early age. I'm traumatized to this day.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
That was again, and I refer to your book because
I picked up so much about you in the book
where you're sitting around family time, playing doing the capulus or.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
What became Well, they would be arguing over some problem
that I couldn't do, and then I'd go, okay, is
this time for me to go, you know, play for
a while. Well they get it out, but they, I guess,
grew up with the understanding that science and technology was
the way forward for China, so they tried to They
(21:12):
thought that would be the best for me. And also
my dad thought Australia, being more racist than it is now,
that I wouldn't be able to get a job if
I did an arts or journalism degree.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And I remember that you were saying in the book
that your father had concerns that they're not going to
you want to go in the journalism the country's not
ready for an Asian journalist and that type of thing.
But I can understand from a parent's point of view
what they would have felt at the time. So steered
you into something that you mainly did for your parents sake.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
And I just thought I'd be able to get a job,
make money, and then that would look good for my parents. Yeah,
I didn't really know what I wanted to do actually
in that way, in terms of a career.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I'm going to raise it. Then if you don't want
to talk about it, that's fine. But when you were
living in Brisbane, you're a victim of a home invasion, Yes,
you happy to talk about what.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I do actually through this podcast not to find detective sergeant.
He was detective sergeant then Dom Mabbot, who worked in
Brisbane at the time in nineteen ninety four, and really
thank him.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
No, well, you've certainly paid cuos to him. And what
was it about that? And I like hearing that, like
as a former detective, someone that's doing their job well.
But Dom Mabbot detective that there was a home invasion
where you were woken up by a man standing over
your bed with a cigarette lther and a knife, threatening
(22:54):
to kill you if you make a noise, and then
kept your hostage.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yes, for over an hour while I took him around
the house looking for money. I took him to the garage.
He didn't know that I actually did it to wake
up the dogs. But the dogs didn't even bark when
they do, they're just very nice dogs. And then to
(23:21):
my dad's room and where he picked up some stuff.
But I thought because my dad had a shotgun hidden somewhere.
I thought it'd be messy if I woke my parents home,
and I thought he wouldn't do anything to me, But
(23:42):
I was wrong. So after he found what he could
find in the house, he raped me in my bed,
and when I screamed, he put his hand over me,
and because my room is at the other end versus
my parents room, they didn't hear. And then he escaped,
(24:05):
and then I went to wake up my dad, but
he was so shocked he couldn't speak properly.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
So I picked up the.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Phone and or I took the phone from him and
made the call. And then when the police came, I
went with Don to the police station to give to
describe the attack and the rapist. But I remember him
telling me he had a young daughter, and the empathy
(24:34):
that he showed, the gentleness, Yeah, yeah, it loft such
a difference.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
First.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Still, think for something as dramatic as that, if you
have a police offer so that understands and is empathetic
towards what you've gone through, it can make a world
of difference. So full full credit to him, but also
credit to you and the way that you you came
through that and taught a bit about yourself, how you
(25:05):
can handle handle crisis and you, yeah, I'm reluctant to
even say that a victim, because you're not broken by it.
You saw him that, you saw the perpetrator get justice
or the justice in the form of a sentence some
seven months later, and you gave evidence of these court matter.
(25:25):
How was that experience for it?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Actually I didn't get to give evidence because when I
had already moved to Melbourne to find work, and the
Queensland Police flew me back to Brisbane for the court hearing,
and as soon as I appeared, he pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Well that's that's even better. Yeah, that's better. But okay,
well that's a that's a tough thing for anyone to
happen happen in their life. But I think it demonstrates
your resolve to always move forward and the strength that
your share. How long did you spend in the career
(26:08):
that you didn't particularly want?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Too long? Five years?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Then you've decided, Okay, I've paid the dues to my
parents and now I want to do something that's I'm
passionate about. What drew you to journalism.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well, two things I'm passionate about. One is telling things
telling the story and then two is using my bilingual advantage.
And at the time, China was growing really fast and
Australian businesses were investing there. So I got a job
as a business analyst with the predecessor or This company
(26:47):
was taken over by Toll Holdings and they had made
an investment in Eastern China. So I went there and
learned so much in just one year.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Seems like the perfect fit with your background and your skills.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Accept accept The joint venture was with the very powerful
state owned power Corporation of that province and to people
who know China power as in electricity, it's very powerful.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Okay, if you've got the power, you've got the.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Power, you do and corrupt, especially back then. Now I
can't gauge the severity, but the things I saw go on, yeah,
but still it was super interesting to observe and to
be a part of. So that's why I then went
(27:43):
for an interview at the what they call CCTV China
Central Television because they were just starting up their English channel,
and that was how I got my start in journalism.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
And did it feel like a good fit for you
at the time?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I loved it from day one just going to speak
to different people and the immediacy of telling what had
happened and being able to use my business show your parents,
I know, yeah, yeah, Dad does that.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Okay, So you moved and lived over there. Relationships, married kids.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I had married when I was working in Melbourne. My
first boyfriend whom I met while we were recording educational
tapes for the Queensland Department of Education, and then we
moved to Melbourne together. And I'm a people pleaser. I
shouldn't have married when I felt it was the wrong
(28:57):
he was. We were just not yeah, not a good fit,
and I should have broken up before getting married.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Well, I can tell you, like I shouldn't be seen here.
I can't judge anyone on relationships. So you explain that
the way you need to explain it. But I understand
that that's you had the five years or whatever it
was and went your separate ways. You're another relationship that
you had two beautiful kids too, Yes, And what years was? At?
(29:31):
What stage was that?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
That was after my divorce. So my first husband was
very stayed and I used to nickname him mister Safety.
And then of course after that that the rebound relationship
was somebody. Yeah, and unfortunately that meant abusive, exploitative, and toxic.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Okay, well, that's not the best.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Thing about that is, of course, my two beautiful.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Kids, and when that's Ava and Alex when.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
We were they born twenty nine and twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Okay, And so your career in journalism, you virtually were
raising the children as a single mother.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I was, Yeah, after after a particularly bad bashing by
my former husband in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Right, okay, well that's it.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, the kids were four and six.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Again, I'm sorry to hear that. That's yeah, that's quite lot.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
In a way, perversely, it helped because I used to think,
if I can be bashed so hard, belted that the
bronze buckle fell off in the head by somebody who
was supposed to love and care for me, was the
father of my kids, then straight just interrogating me and
(31:01):
putting me through pain is not so hard to fathom.
And if I can still later on see my ex
husband and talk to him about raising the kids and
be cordial and calm, then why can't I get through
(31:25):
strangers hurting me.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
It's interesting you say that. I think all the little
parts of our lives that do hear this and that,
and how we readbound from that? And you don't look
back and wish any harm on You're not saying I'm
glad it happened, but it does shape you, and it's
certainly something I think in the experiences you had would
have stilled your resolve. In the prison situation that you found.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yourself in, yeah, everything that was terrible had prepared me
for the ultimate terror.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
The biggest test. And I I sit opposite like Kylie
and Sean and that I don't know how I would
cope in those environments, like just the situations that you
found yourself in. It's incredible. But anyway we'll dig into that.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Don't choose you as a sell mate.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
We'd have some fun in themselves. We'd try and trick
the guards. I'm also amazed of the ratcunning to get
around some of some of the rules, because they've got
it all wide. There is no way you're going to
break these rules. But you managed to break break some
of the rules and very cleverly. Your life before before
you were detained living, where were you living.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I was living in the central part of Beijing.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Okay, we'd be the TV station with.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
My kids, so my mum would come over and stay
half of the year.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Okay, how old were your kids at that time?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
They were eight and ten. Okay, when we separated in
February twenty.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Twenty, all right, and then if correct me if I'm wrong,
your kids were sent over to visit your mom. Yes,
and then the dreaded COVID lockdowns. Yeah, and all the
lockdowns and say you.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Kid locked its borders. So my kids were on a
flight to come back on the thirty first of March
twenty twenty, but that flight got canceled and then nothing
nobody could come in, well except for officials kids, And.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
There's always a loophole, is it for certain people? Okay,
that must have been traumatic in itself. It was been
separated for you.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Had never been separated from them like that. Yeah, maybe
you know, for a month when they went to see
my dad in Perth, or maybe for a day or
two when I went on business troops, but not like that. Yeah,
long and not knowing when it would end. So I
(33:59):
was just going out of my brain every day trying
to find some way to get them back.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
So how long was it before you had detained the
kids with trapped for six months. Okay, so you had
six months without your kids.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So all in total, I didn't see my kids for
close to four years.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
That must have been heartbreaking at that age too, like
so many changes, so many things that go on in
their lives, yeap, when you were in detention. Who was
looking after your children?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
My mom was, I was. I would have liked for
my children to have gone to Perth with my dad
because my mum is a hoarder and her house I
don't think kids good for the kids or her way
of living. But it ended up being that my daughter
(34:58):
went to boarding school and my son was there for
the whole time.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
That must be tough, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
And I would always read the letters to try to
glean how the kids were doing, yeah, and the ways
they were coping. And later when I did find out
some details, it was just heartbreaking around.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, I can imagine. Okay, I promise not to make
you cry again. I feel like I mean got you
and forget about those Chinese interrogators.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
This is good.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Good cry, Okay, good cry. Tell us about the day
that you would detained, so we've got a sense of
your life leading up to it, who you were, and
I just you probably underplayed it. You were pretty big
in the journalists. Well, you had some good gigs in
the media, and yeah, inter viewing Michael Schumacher, covering the
(35:58):
Rolling Stones concerts and really tough gigs like that. So
you were struggling. Then your world's turned upside down? How
did it start? Talk us through that?
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, So August thirteenth, twenty twenty the worst day of
my life. I was thinking that I would go play
tennis in the morning, and also I was feeling crook,
but being me, I'd go and play sport when I
(36:33):
was cook anyway, thinking it's going to make me better.
But when I took some painkillers and dozed off, and
then when I work, I saw all these messages like
work wanting me to come in right now because the
head honcho wanted to see me about my pilot for
(36:57):
a show that's about cooking and eating with ambassadors. And
I was excited so quickly dressed and went to work,
thinking about how I'm going to get this show made,
and I thought it was going to be a one
(37:17):
on one. But when I pushed open this meeting room door,
it was just this huge table about twenty people sitting
around it and I thought, oh, that's odd. Yeah, And
then the next part was somebody standing up holding a
badge and said, I'm from the Ministry of State Security
(37:41):
wanting to investigate you for supplying state secrets to overseas organizations.
And my bag and phone were taken from me, and
from then on I was always escorted, even when I
went to the toilet. So then we drove from the
(38:04):
TV station to my apartment, and even the building manager
came out to meet them, so I knew that they
had worked this all out beforehand, and they filmed me
going up to my place, and then they started to
raid my apartment, and they knew exactly where to go,
(38:27):
so they didn't go to my kids room, or my
mum's room, or even the living room. They just went
straight to my bedroom and spent hours while I sat
in the living room.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What was going.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I was in a bit of pain, and I thought, one,
this must be a mistake, and two, I'm sure I
can explain this because I haven't done anything wrong and
I haven't supplied state secrets to overseas organizations. I didn't
even start to think that it was anything related to
(39:08):
bilatual relations. I just thought this will be a little adventure,
something to tell people about a story at the dinner table. Yeah,
that's right, and they got the wrong person. Yeah that's
why when they said, oh, you should turn off the utilities,
(39:31):
I thought, what why would I bother? I go away
for two weeks without turning off the electricity and it's
so stupid.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
And when did you realize this is this is not
going to be a case of oh, when they leave,
I'm going to get What was that about? When did
you realize that you were in real trouble.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I didn't realize the full extent of what they could
do to me, or what they could do to anyone. Yeah,
until months later. For example, even the next day, I thought,
if I could sit out this day, I would be
able to get bail or some sort of house arrest.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Did you under have an understanding of the Chinese system
or are you more thinking, well, you're more attuned to
the Australian justice system, where bail and those type of
protections might be more readily available.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I don't think I even had a full understanding of
any judicial system. It wasn't my beating, It's not. Yeah. Sure,
I read news articles and I know, and I've seen
too many American legal shows, which is not good preparation
(40:53):
for Chinese incarceration.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Doesn't You didn't read me by rights, that's not going to.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, yeah, give me, give me a quarter to call
my lawyer.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
So how did you feel like? I know, it's intimidating
for people when they're placed under arrest and yeah, we're
used to our freedoms and then have someone and I
say to look on people's faces when no, you can't
actually leave the room you've been detained. How did that
make you feel like someone physically had control of you
from that point in time.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
To a certain degree. In China, you hear about things happening,
so you're not entirely bewildered, but still, you know, the
more things they told me, I couldn't do the it
was just a very ugly, dawning things like you can't
(41:50):
put your arm over your eyes, you can't sleep facing
the wall. Those things you don't think about.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
So you were you were? You're taken from your home, yes,
and you blindfolded.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Even that in itself is quite confronting to be blindfolded
them and walked out in the in the charge of
someone else, not knowing where you've been taken well.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
When I was blindfolded, I was still in my you
know way till I tell people about this.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Oh, then they put the blindfold on.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, not knowing you would be you know, another three
years before I could actually tell that story.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, So where were you taken to?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I was taken to the well at the time, to me,
it was a secret location. But it's number forty seven
dahlmannlu Infonte District in Beijing, a place that I really hate.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It's not the type of place you recommend people visit.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
So it's the facility where they take state secret, not
state secret, state security. What would you call them suspects
or yes, aspect it the difference that you're being suspected
(43:10):
of something.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
A place where they can detain you without having you
not charged. They can just detain you at that at that.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Pacil people are often surprised by the different order of
pain that you experience. In the Chinese system. You get
the worst first, whereas in Australia, the US jail is
the worst.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You get it, that's the end of it.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, but their jail is almost paradise compared to say,
the first phase, which is RSDLA.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And what's that stand for?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location, which sounds really benign.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
A lot of interpretations that could be made.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, residential. There's nothing residential about having two people stuck
to you for every minute of the day for six
months there.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I think that's just hard to comprehend when you describe
the conditions that you're in. You're in a small room.
You've got a bed there, and you've got someone standing
forty centimeters in front of you, and someone.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Sitting forty centimeters to your right, to your.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Right, and at all times twenty four to seven, yes,
and you're not allowed to talk. You've got to keep
your eyes open. You've got to sit on the bed
for thirteen hours a day, and.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
You've got to sit straight. You can't cross your legs
or ankles, you can't lean against anything, you can't move
without permission.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
How long did this go on? For?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Six months? That's the legal limit. Yeah, And many lawyers,
like conscientious lawyers, have lobbied for that to be abolished
in China because this is how how you how people
make cases. Right.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Psychological torture, Yeah, say anything, break a person, break a person,
get out of it. And then you get you get
taken them out for interrogation at their whim. Yeah, and
what did that involve?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
And under Chinese law, you're not supposed to have the
place of interrogation on the same premises as the so
called residential surveillance. But they give a different address to
the room right next door.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
But they put you in the wheelchair and put the
blindfold on you and were you down there.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
No, it's right next door, right, Yeah, So that in
itself is very dodgy.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
And you're in a restraint chair, so there's a big
block of wood that kind of that's locked in front
of you, so you can't move, you can't get out
of the chair, and three people video cameras recording someone
(45:50):
feeding them what to ask you, and every and really
just looking at every part of your life because they've
confiscated all all of your electronics.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
How often would you be interrogated.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
In the first month, Probably a dozen times, and then
it petered off after that because they didn't find anything
with switch to asked me. They just hit all these
dead ends.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Did you think that the insanity would have to come
to an end at some stage? Could you reach out
and speak to the embassy at this location. Could you
speak to your family, could you engage a lawyer?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
No? I mean the embassy came to visit every month,
and that was a godsend. But it's thirty minutes for
thirty days, and I often thought there's just not enough
time to say really important things like where are the
(46:56):
kids going to be? And what happens to my personal life?
You can't talk about your case. Of course, they have
a translator, and they have video cameras, and they have
all these officers sitting around me, even though it's by
a video link, and they're actually on the premises, and
this is another brand of Chinese gratuitus cruelty. Yeah, they
(47:20):
have to take all these COVID tests to come into
the detention center, and then the visit is still by
video link, and we always have to wear masks, so
you can't even seek any sort of or get any
sort of comfort from seeing somebody's face, seeing their smile.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
So you've virtually gone from a normal, exciting existence life
and you've been dropped into this environment, which is sensory deprivation.
I would imagine not being able to talk, not have
the freedom to move when you want in the cell.
Describe the cell to me.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
The cell is padded. In fact, everything is designed to
prevent self harm or I guess harming others. So thick
steel sliding doors to lock you in and doorless bathroom. Again,
the bathroom is padded, and there's no tap, It's only
(48:23):
a rubber hose. And okay that the tab is set
within the wall, so you have to put your fingers
in to turn it, and it's very hard, and obviously
they're afraid of you wrenching off, for example, a tap
too to do something. So when it got so bad.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
That people would tell you that I'm like the ultimate
life lover.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I love to live.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
But there came a moment when I wanted to die,
and I thought, how can I do it? The walls
are soft, right.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That there's not thing that there's this blue gray carpet.
But the only thing that was hard was the bathroom tiles.
And when I'm on the toilet, the guards are watching.
But I thought if I could just in that moment
before they grabbed me, if I could smash my head
(49:21):
against the tiles, Yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Would be some sort of relief because I didn't know
if I would see my family again, I.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Can't comprehend the low how you would be feeling too,
consider consider that and just no privacy, no communication.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, because you speak like five sentences a day, like
permission to go to the toilet, permission to go to
the toilet.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
So you're sitting there with someone standing in front of you,
standing in front of you, and you got to keep
your eyes open before you've seen and made this from me,
which is not nothing big, there's.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Names really weird.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, how how did you occupy your mind and stay
sane during that? And I asked that genuinely, how do
you stay sane when that's going on?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Well? Later I found out that I thought I had
it bad, but others had it worse. When the Australian
embassy lobbied on my behalf, I started to get books.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yep, in the detention center when in R SDR.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Yeah, that saved my life. You words cannot describe how
much of how much solace.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Some books escapeism for you.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Like literally I would read very comforting words over and
over again.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I remember this book by Melbourne author called Belinda Missen.
She writes some romantic stories, very lighthearted, and she was
describing this Victorian town and said there was a fish
and chip shop mhm, and all of a sudden, just
(51:23):
this rush of longing for azziness, you know.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
So thankfully I had the books, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
But I was on a drip feed. Yeah, so after
I had read one book, there was if you've got
thirteen hours, and unfortunately I'm a fast reader, son, then
what then I'm begging for another book? And I can't
(52:01):
even talk to the officers directly. I have to go
through the guards, so and sometimes they would like gesture
to me that this officer was really mean. And you know,
it's not a good idea.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
So when you say drip feed the books, you only
read the portion of it, because if you go through
a book that's gone, then you wait up.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
As in the offices would drip feed me the books right,
just enough to keep me from going insane, but I
would ration it myself so that I would wake up
and think, oh, I have a new chapter.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Today, something to look forward to me. Exactly did the
guards ever loosen up a little bit or were they?
And you said at the start of this you had
empathy for the guards what they're going through. Did any
of them let their personalities come out? Were they were.
They were too fearful to break the rules.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Some of them were very nice to me because I
showed if they were if they carved or you know,
like there were ways to show that you your normal,
decent human being. And I would always say good morning,
even if they didn't say it back. And there was
(53:09):
one guard who had the runs, and she radioed for
central command to send a sub but nobody could come,
so she couldn't leave. She couldn't use the toilet that
was just ten or five meters away, and she couldn't
go out those That's the sort of system you're dealing
(53:34):
with watching somebody crap her pants like and the shame
and the pain on her face. And when you see that,
that's how they treat their employees. And the officers have
pretty tough gigs too, then I guess you You know,
(53:56):
then doing what they did to me is nothing to.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Them would cause your concern. If they can treat their
own that way, what would they do for you? What
about sleeping lights out time or never? So like seeing
bright lights the whole time.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I used to think that I wouldn't be able to
sleep with the lights on. Yeah, But I guess when
you become extremely sleep deprived than you can natural sunlight.
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Sorry, I'm.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Useful for showing your Australians there.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Look, let's just open the window and let a nice
breeze through.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
No, no, Oka, they're paranoid about you seeing what's outside,
even though once I did see because the curtain was
opened for a little bit, and even though the Australian
government lobbied for me to get fresh air, there was
only this tiny window near the ceiling that could be
(54:57):
opened for fifteen minutes a day, and they would always
make it so such a big production, like standing up
on the stool to quickly you get behind the curtains,
and then to open the window so that I don't
even see a flash of what's outside.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
I mean, jeez, well you are an international spy. What
you're capable of?
Speaker 2 (55:25):
I felt so inadequate. They really really overestimate me.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
James Bond, there was things that you did to pass
pass the time of day. I'm not going to mention it.
It's in your book. I'm not sure how to raise
the subject. Let's just say found found release and pleasure. Well,
(55:52):
you can explain it. You told me how to explain it.
But I thought it was very creative and it was
quite funny and it made me laugh.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Well, you do what you have to do, and if
you can, I'll look.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
On I'll help you out. It about pleasuring yourself even
when there's people watching. Twenty four seven our guests today
found a creative way to do it. I'm not going
to go into any further details other than the say
it's in the book, but it made me laugh when
I was reading it, So a little victory to you. Congratulations.
You've got to laugh at these things, haven't you. Well,
(56:31):
And I would imagine that.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Well, if if all there is, if the things around
you only give you pain, then you can create pleasure
for yourself. Whether it's remembering something beautiful or planning what
I'm going to say that's loving and affectionate at the
next embassy visit to my family, or going through some
(56:59):
you know, really lovely sentences in a book, yeah, or
other things. Then you just got to I think that's
actually very Australian to be self reliant. Because we're so
remote and we can't always get help. You just toughen
up and do things yourself.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
You paid tribute to the fact that the Australian side
of your help you get through a lot of this.
You think that's genuine because you understand the whole cultures,
But the Australian side just a little bit what we
like to think. We are a little bit rebellious and
get in, have a go and we can survive this
tough times. We'll get through that type of attitude.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
And we can always crack some daggy jokes, yeah, and
have a laugh at ourselves, have a laugh at people
who take themselves too seriously. Yeah, and get on with
it all right.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
Well, look we might take a break now that we've
only got your six months into a three year sentence,
and this is just the start of it. You haven't
even met yourself yet. And that's other little party tricks
that you got up to with your home brew and
daycake cakes and all that. We laugh about it, but
what you're also experience is that you're not just a deprivation,
(58:13):
but you're away from your family and all the pain
that that creates. So you know, as much as we
laugh at it, yeah, it was a hell of a
situation you found yourself in, but you're still here. They
didn't break.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
You, no, And I'm trying to Gary Gazza.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
All right, don't turn it on me. You're a professional journalist.
I'm just trying to make a living in this business.
When we get back for part two, we'll talk about
what happened with the trial, the sentence, and how you
eventually found your freedom and how you survived it, because
I think that's a really interesting time.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Great cheers, Thank you, Ka
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life. The average person has never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
(00:45):
I had a fascinating conversation with Australian journalist Cheng Lei,
who was detained for years in the Chinese prison for
supposedly endangering China's national security. We talked about life, her career,
and the inhumane treatment she suffered whilst in uted. Chang
Lai amaze me not only by a resilience but a
sense of humor in the face of adversity. Have her
(01:06):
listen to a story and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
She's a very cool lady with a good take on life.
Chang Lai, I'm excited to have you on the podcast. Hi.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Gary, it's a privilege to be here and meet you
because I read your book while in detention and shared
it with my cell mates.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well, that's very cool. We might talk about that a
little bit later on, but I'm glad I catch Kill
has found its way into a cell in China.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
A place so secret you can't google a picture.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, there you go. I should have put a file
or something in the book for you to help you escape.
At twenty twenty, I, like everyone else in this country,
heard about your arrest and being detained in China, and
I remember thinking that would probably be the worst place
you'd want to be, caught up in a system, a
(01:55):
system that we don't fully understand, in a communist country
in prison. How was it for you?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I experienced all the power that the Chinese state
has firsthand, and as you say, it's I don't know
if it's the worst. I haven't been in jail in
Russia or Cuba or Venezuela or maybe other countries or
North Korea. But as far as I know, it's probably
(02:27):
that ultimate mix of extreme organization, extreme paranoia, and a
unique insight into what tortures people mentally, because that's what
you're talking about with state security incarceration. It's about breaking
(02:47):
your mind as opposed to breaking your body, which for foreigners,
I don't think that would happen any physical violence.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So and we will talk about what you were put through,
and it was so logical torture of the extreme, I
would suggest, But it's also what we've had on eye
catch killers. And I'm sure you know them. Sean Turnbull
and Kylie Moore.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Gilbert my good friends. Imagine elite club of jailbirds.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I'd love to be at the dinner party with you.
You you international spies, a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Of prison envy. What you had tea in you run
so jealous.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
So you compare it comparing those a little bit. I
found with both, and both Sean and Kylie that the
way that they caped I was quite amazed. And I
finished finished your book and again reading a lot of
light red well the Human Spirit, and that's what came
(03:50):
across in your book, The Human Spirit. How all these
things set up to break you, but you you're still
hanging in there, and maintain you umanity too. I think
that would be difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I think it's better to focus on other people rather
than yourself all the time, so not eaten up by
the misery. When I tried to empathize with the guards,
when I even tried to see what made the officers tick,
even when they were interrogating me in the most awful way,
(04:27):
or when I tried later intertention to help myself mates,
that really helped me to know that everyone hurts, everyone suffers,
and if I can make the tiniest bit of difference
to someone else, then my suffering is eased.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Easy to say, probably harder to do. I can only
imagine the frustration of being in prison for something that
you haven't done and almost feel what you have helpless.
It'd be screamed shouting the walls.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Well it's not something I haven't done. They can always
accuse you of something that you have done and say
that it is a crime. But what they really wanted
we still don't know. But as far as the facts
stack up, is to slap Australia in the face.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, And do you think in part what happened to you,
that was caught up in all the political agendas and
the bilateral relationships between Australia and China for the time while.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Because the day in, day out bashing me over the
head that I am guilty, that what I did was
so horrible. After a while I did get Stockholm syndrome.
But later when I saw obviously when I was in there,
I didn't know anything anything that was happening outside or
(05:56):
how people felt or what they said or what they did.
But now looking at everything that's happened, things that were
revealed to my lawyer, for example, and the dates the
date on which they started surveiling me, which is three
days after three or four days after Australia called for
(06:21):
that inquiry into the source of COVID and China started
like on that day arrested the ex deputy head at
the time. He was the deputy head of police, who
had studied in Australia, who was also the man in
charge of cleaning up Uhan right and had still had
(06:43):
family in Australia. So that's that's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And it almost sets it up as a bargaining chip
in a way for negotiations.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And also maybe paranoia that I was somehow related to
him and not related but associated with him. And to
this day, nobody's going to come out and admit why
exactly they did what they did what they did, but
(07:14):
the lines of questioning and they must have thought I
was somehow a spy.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What with the interrogation.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Well, now, I mean you've read some of the exchanges
right like where is your grandma Springvale Cemetery?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
They were clutching at straw as I look from a
prosecution point of view, trying to find find something something
on you. But okay, you're not an international spy. Will
establish that. That's that's the same thing that Kylie said,
in the same thing that Shaun said.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And if I am, please send me some money.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
We've actually had an international spy on the on the podcast,
Jeffrey twice, and he was worked for DGS, the French spy,
and he never did time in jail, but he actually
looked like a spy and he can fly a fire,
a plane and all sorts of things. At times I
can't even reverse park. I read that in your book,
(08:11):
but your children captured it on video with your kids,
and you've also got another one that you probably share
common not common interest. That's the wrong way common experiences.
Peter Gressi as well. Yes, it was locked up in
Egypt for journalists. And I saw his movie on the
(08:32):
Weekend Correspondent and at the end of the movie they
talk about I think the figures were in excess of
four hundred journalists in prison in over forty five countries
at the moment. So did you consider it an occupational hazard,
like working as an Australian citizen working in working in China.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think when I started working in journalism in China,
it was a very different vibe, very different period. It
was two thousand and two and China had just entered
the wto China wanted all things foreign. It wanted foreign talent,
(09:12):
it wanted foreign investment, We wanted foreign brands, Yes, absolutely,
And even the Chinese leader at the time would show
off his English and sing Elva songs when he went
to visit the US. That's not to say that there
was actual a lot of political opening up, but you
could see seeds here and there, and you could see
(09:34):
them being allowed to sprout a little before sometimes they
are quashed. And it was of course we didn't have
the technology that China didn't have the technology has now
for the extreme surveillance and the internet censorship. So ironically
(09:54):
it was a freer time.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Right, Okay, So in that environment you didn't get the
sense of some think like what happened to you could
happen No, because there was a lot of encouragement. Can
we're going to talk about your life but also your experiences,
but can we just break down what you're actually convicted of?
What were the offense? So when we're talking about that,
people understand exactly the nature of the crime.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Supplying state secrets to an overseas entity organization.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And that was in the form of a text message
or that's where the.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Which I sent on WeChat and which I never deleted
because I didn't think it was a state secret. It was.
It's called the Premier's Work Report, which in Australian terms
is kind of like the budget, and in it it
talks about the previous year's economic growth and sets a
(10:49):
target for the coming year. And in twenty twenty it
didn't set a target and had a nine million jobs target.
Those were the eight words that I texted my friend
who worked at Bloomberg, who is a Chinese citizen. So
it's an Australian citizen working for a Chinese organization texting
(11:11):
something to a Chinese citizen working at an American organization,
thinking that because she helps me and in turn helps
where I worked, that I help her. And she had
told me that two of her employed colleagues had been
let go because they didn't match Voiters in putting out
(11:36):
that they had sport the previous year.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Okay, so you're basically trying to help a friend and
there was no malicious intent or no well I had.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
When they asked me what a state secret was at
the interrogations, I said numbers of rockets defense stuff. That
was my so so stupid and naive understanding of state security.
And I now know that is actually comprised of sixteen sectors,
(12:09):
everything from health to oceans, to culture to economic.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
All considered state secrets. Okay, So that just puts it
in context what you spent three years in prison for.
So when people are looking at you, they're not thinking
they Okay, maybe she's a spy. That's basically what it
came down to.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So many Chinese people might actually think that, yeah, well
then again, I'm just saying that because I have seen
some very very vitriolic commentary when the press release of
my book was when that came out, and things like
(12:54):
I should be shot, I should have been locked up longer.
I should have my kids taken away from me. That's
not nice, is that I am a spy and should
have known that was the cost of being a spy.
And all this is because China has manipulated the narrative
in the Chinese language to say that I am a spy.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
And you're you're in a position where you culturally understand
China because you grew up in China before you came
across to Australia. You speak the language, so you would
have had a real sense of it, and you can
I'm sensing the pain that you're describing describing now. It
must hurt because I don't think you've got any animosity
(13:37):
towards China.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Not at all, And to.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Have that type of vitriol put out about you when
you really you support China and it's turned on you,
it must be hurtful.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
This is the thing people are now completing China with
the Chinese, with the Chinese regime, and we should be compartmentalizing.
We shouldn't say, because the regime has done these awful
things that we should be racist towards Chinese people. Yeah,
Chinese Australians or overseas Chinese, and we shouldn't be saying
(14:15):
we can't celebrate the culture. Yeah, but it's a hard
thing for people to sometimes understand because they will seem entwined.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, the narrative that comes forward China. Yeah, we've got
a fear of China that this is going on, but
it's missing the point of the actual people. But you
understand the people, so you're well placed.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, but I know that many Chinese people are now
afraid that by talking to me or being my friend,
they're actually they're actually endangering their businesses or assets or
their families in China, which is so terrible.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, that that must hurt. Let's talk about your upbringing.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Happier subjects. You're a hard detective.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
It's okay, didn't mean it didn't mean to break you down.
We talk about your torture or the psychological torture over
in China, and here I am putting you in an
interview room again. Yes, but let's just know, Okay, we'll
take a step back, tell me about your childhood, because
you had a nice childhood growing up and an interesting
childhood to tell us about that time in China.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
So when I was born, we were on the cusp
of ending the Cult Revolution, which basically fucked up China
big time, and you still see some of those after
effects now. But China was about to change leaders, Marl
was about to die, and the living standards were going
to start to improve. But at the time, my parents
(15:55):
were earning something like five to six dollars a month,
and even what they did, where they lived, it was
all dependent on their families, their lineage. So if you
had nothing, then that was the best type of family,
and whereas if your family had either been educated or
(16:19):
had land or assets, then you were the worst of
the lot. So that was the whole reversal thanks to Mao.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Turn it upside down. Do you have fond memories because
you were there too. You were ten and now you
talk about swimming in the river and different things, and
it was almost like a country life that you were living.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I was in the city, but back then there wasn't
a lot of difference between the city and the countryside
in that you ate to meat very rarely. I think
once a year we would have chicken once or twice.
I remember once it was because we had guests, a
special guests. Another time it was because it was Chinese
(17:01):
New Year and this one chicken, poor chook that got killed.
You know, everything was cooked and in the choicest bits
would be given to people who were sick or it
was just Yeah, you can't imagine the scarcity of anything.
If you've got a plastic bag, you would wash it
to reuse it again and again. But that didn't stop
(17:26):
me from enjoying the childhood because there were always lots
of kids around and we would just play in nature,
just find bits of leaves and pretend, you know, playhouse
with that, or try to find a little beetle tire
string on it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I'm not going to admit to that, but I understand.
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
We didn't hurt it. Very gentle with the thread.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That type of type of childhood. Now you attend when
you came across to Australia, tell us about that experience,
because that would have been a culture shock for you
big time.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
It was a tsunami. Yeah, getting on the plane in
Guangzhou in southern China. My mum was scared that we
had too much luggage, so she made me wear two
pairs of her jeans. At the time, jeans were a
new thing in China. They were seen as the ultimate
fashion statement. Except they were all fled I think they
(18:25):
were cast offs from developed.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Countries, seventy stock that we could tell exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
So I was wearing mum's two long jeans and sitting
on this plane and not knowing what to do at all.
So when the bits of quantus food came around, Mom
and I were trying to figure out, like why is
this meat cold? Why is it unflavored? And not knowing
that the sachets of salt and pepper were to be opened.
(18:53):
And then I went to the toilet and I'm so sorry, Quantas,
but I squatted on the seat.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
That's why they have to bring in those signs toilet.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, but this was eighty five for understandable for.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
A ten year old. For a ten year old, what
it's like you go into another planet, it was yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I mean I tried to imagine it when when I
knew I would be going. But back then, what did
we know of the outside world except that you know,
there used to be the slogan that US imperialists or
paper tigers. To a kid, what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Is that good or bad?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I thought gorilla warfare was gorillas fighting when I was
growing up, so the confused this gorilla warfare. That's a
bit of a tough fighting gorillas. But anyway, we'll all
grow up and learn. So your time in Australia, So
how did you find that you ended up in Brisbane?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You well, Dad was doing his PhD at Monash to
my Nash Primary and Secondary and then in the final
year Dad went to work at the University of Queensland.
So we all moved up and I did year twelve
at Intrapilli High in Brisbane.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Okay, and you.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What a shock from Melbournian Brisbane.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Your your father was pushing you into commerce and you
studying what you were studying was not What was really
your passion.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Is that my parents are all very nerdy maths slash
physics nerdy and they used to make me do problems
from an early age. I'm traumatized to this day.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
That was again, and I refer to your book because
I picked up so much about you in the book
where you're sitting around family time, playing doing the capulus or.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
What became Well, they would be arguing over some problem
that I couldn't do, and then I'd go, okay, is
this time for me to go, you know, play for
a while. Well they get it out, but they, I guess,
grew up with the understanding that science and technology was
the way forward for China, so they tried to They
(21:12):
thought that would be the best for me. And also
my dad thought Australia, being more racist than it is now,
that I wouldn't be able to get a job if
I did an arts or journalism degree.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And I remember that you were saying in the book
that your father had concerns that they're not going to
you want to go in the journalism the country's not
ready for an Asian journalist and that type of thing.
But I can understand from a parent's point of view
what they would have felt at the time. So steered
you into something that you mainly did for your parents sake.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
And I just thought I'd be able to get a job,
make money, and then that would look good for my parents. Yeah,
I didn't really know what I wanted to do actually
in that way, in terms of a career.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I'm going to raise it. Then if you don't want
to talk about it, that's fine. But when you were
living in Brisbane, you're a victim of a home invasion, Yes,
you happy to talk about what.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I do actually through this podcast not to find detective sergeant.
He was detective sergeant then Dom Mabbot, who worked in
Brisbane at the time in nineteen ninety four, and really
thank him.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
No, well, you've certainly paid cuos to him. And what
was it about that? And I like hearing that, like
as a former detective, someone that's doing their job well.
But Dom Mabbot detective that there was a home invasion
where you were woken up by a man standing over
your bed with a cigarette lther and a knife, threatening
(22:54):
to kill you if you make a noise, and then
kept your hostage.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yes, for over an hour while I took him around
the house looking for money. I took him to the garage.
He didn't know that I actually did it to wake
up the dogs. But the dogs didn't even bark when
they do, they're just very nice dogs. And then to
(23:21):
my dad's room and where he picked up some stuff.
But I thought because my dad had a shotgun hidden somewhere.
I thought it'd be messy if I woke my parents home,
and I thought he wouldn't do anything to me, But
(23:42):
I was wrong. So after he found what he could
find in the house, he raped me in my bed,
and when I screamed, he put his hand over me,
and because my room is at the other end versus
my parents room, they didn't hear. And then he escaped,
(24:05):
and then I went to wake up my dad, but
he was so shocked he couldn't speak properly.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
So I picked up the.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Phone and or I took the phone from him and
made the call. And then when the police came, I
went with Don to the police station to give to
describe the attack and the rapist. But I remember him
telling me he had a young daughter, and the empathy
(24:34):
that he showed, the gentleness, Yeah, yeah, it loft such
a difference.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
First.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Still, think for something as dramatic as that, if you
have a police offer so that understands and is empathetic
towards what you've gone through, it can make a world
of difference. So full full credit to him, but also
credit to you and the way that you you came
through that and taught a bit about yourself, how you
(25:05):
can handle handle crisis and you, yeah, I'm reluctant to
even say that a victim, because you're not broken by it.
You saw him that, you saw the perpetrator get justice
or the justice in the form of a sentence some
seven months later, and you gave evidence of these court matter.
(25:25):
How was that experience for it?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Actually I didn't get to give evidence because when I
had already moved to Melbourne to find work, and the
Queensland Police flew me back to Brisbane for the court hearing,
and as soon as I appeared, he pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Well that's that's even better. Yeah, that's better. But okay,
well that's a that's a tough thing for anyone to
happen happen in their life. But I think it demonstrates
your resolve to always move forward and the strength that
your share. How long did you spend in the career
(26:08):
that you didn't particularly want?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Too long? Five years?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Then you've decided, Okay, I've paid the dues to my
parents and now I want to do something that's I'm
passionate about. What drew you to journalism.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well, two things I'm passionate about. One is telling things
telling the story and then two is using my bilingual advantage.
And at the time, China was growing really fast and
Australian businesses were investing there. So I got a job
as a business analyst with the predecessor or This company
(26:47):
was taken over by Toll Holdings and they had made
an investment in Eastern China. So I went there and
learned so much in just one year.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Seems like the perfect fit with your background and your skills.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Accept accept The joint venture was with the very powerful
state owned power Corporation of that province and to people
who know China power as in electricity, it's very powerful.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Okay, if you've got the power, you've got the.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Power, you do and corrupt, especially back then. Now I
can't gauge the severity, but the things I saw go on, yeah,
but still it was super interesting to observe and to
be a part of. So that's why I then went
(27:43):
for an interview at the what they call CCTV China
Central Television because they were just starting up their English channel,
and that was how I got my start in journalism.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
And did it feel like a good fit for you
at the time?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I loved it from day one just going to speak
to different people and the immediacy of telling what had
happened and being able to use my business show your parents,
I know, yeah, yeah, Dad does that.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Okay, So you moved and lived over there. Relationships, married kids.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I had married when I was working in Melbourne. My
first boyfriend whom I met while we were recording educational
tapes for the Queensland Department of Education, and then we
moved to Melbourne together. And I'm a people pleaser. I
shouldn't have married when I felt it was the wrong
(28:57):
he was. We were just not yeah, not a good fit,
and I should have broken up before getting married.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Well, I can tell you, like I shouldn't be seen here.
I can't judge anyone on relationships. So you explain that
the way you need to explain it. But I understand
that that's you had the five years or whatever it
was and went your separate ways. You're another relationship that
you had two beautiful kids too, Yes, And what years was? At?
(29:31):
What stage was that?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
That was after my divorce. So my first husband was
very stayed and I used to nickname him mister Safety.
And then of course after that that the rebound relationship
was somebody. Yeah, and unfortunately that meant abusive, exploitative, and toxic.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Okay, well, that's not the best.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Thing about that is, of course, my two beautiful.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Kids, and when that's Ava and Alex when.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
We were they born twenty nine and twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Okay, And so your career in journalism, you virtually were
raising the children as a single mother.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I was, Yeah, after after a particularly bad bashing by
my former husband in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Right, okay, well that's it.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, the kids were four and six.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Again, I'm sorry to hear that. That's yeah, that's quite lot.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
In a way, perversely, it helped because I used to think,
if I can be bashed so hard, belted that the
bronze buckle fell off in the head by somebody who
was supposed to love and care for me, was the
father of my kids, then straight just interrogating me and
(31:01):
putting me through pain is not so hard to fathom.
And if I can still later on see my ex
husband and talk to him about raising the kids and
be cordial and calm, then why can't I get through
(31:25):
strangers hurting me.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
It's interesting you say that. I think all the little
parts of our lives that do hear this and that,
and how we readbound from that? And you don't look
back and wish any harm on You're not saying I'm
glad it happened, but it does shape you, and it's
certainly something I think in the experiences you had would
have stilled your resolve. In the prison situation that you found.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yourself in, yeah, everything that was terrible had prepared me
for the ultimate terror.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
The biggest test. And I I sit opposite like Kylie
and Sean and that I don't know how I would
cope in those environments, like just the situations that you
found yourself in. It's incredible. But anyway we'll dig into that.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Don't choose you as a sell mate.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
We'd have some fun in themselves. We'd try and trick
the guards. I'm also amazed of the ratcunning to get
around some of some of the rules, because they've got
it all wide. There is no way you're going to
break these rules. But you managed to break break some
of the rules and very cleverly. Your life before before
you were detained living, where were you living.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I was living in the central part of Beijing.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Okay, we'd be the TV station with.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
My kids, so my mum would come over and stay
half of the year.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Okay, how old were your kids at that time?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
They were eight and ten. Okay, when we separated in
February twenty.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Twenty, all right, and then if correct me if I'm wrong,
your kids were sent over to visit your mom. Yes,
and then the dreaded COVID lockdowns. Yeah, and all the
lockdowns and say you.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Kid locked its borders. So my kids were on a
flight to come back on the thirty first of March
twenty twenty, but that flight got canceled and then nothing
nobody could come in, well except for officials kids, And.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
There's always a loophole, is it for certain people? Okay,
that must have been traumatic in itself. It was been
separated for you.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Had never been separated from them like that. Yeah, maybe
you know, for a month when they went to see
my dad in Perth, or maybe for a day or
two when I went on business troops, but not like that. Yeah,
long and not knowing when it would end. So I
(33:59):
was just going out of my brain every day trying
to find some way to get them back.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
So how long was it before you had detained the
kids with trapped for six months. Okay, so you had
six months without your kids.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So all in total, I didn't see my kids for
close to four years.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
That must have been heartbreaking at that age too, like
so many changes, so many things that go on in
their lives, yeap, when you were in detention. Who was
looking after your children?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
My mom was, I was. I would have liked for
my children to have gone to Perth with my dad
because my mum is a hoarder and her house I
don't think kids good for the kids or her way
of living. But it ended up being that my daughter
(34:58):
went to boarding school and my son was there for
the whole time.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
That must be tough, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
And I would always read the letters to try to
glean how the kids were doing, yeah, and the ways
they were coping. And later when I did find out
some details, it was just heartbreaking around.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, I can imagine. Okay, I promise not to make
you cry again. I feel like I mean got you
and forget about those Chinese interrogators.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
This is good.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Good cry, Okay, good cry. Tell us about the day
that you would detained, so we've got a sense of
your life leading up to it, who you were, and
I just you probably underplayed it. You were pretty big
in the journalists. Well, you had some good gigs in
the media, and yeah, inter viewing Michael Schumacher, covering the
(35:58):
Rolling Stones concerts and really tough gigs like that. So
you were struggling. Then your world's turned upside down? How
did it start? Talk us through that?
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, So August thirteenth, twenty twenty the worst day of
my life. I was thinking that I would go play
tennis in the morning, and also I was feeling crook,
but being me, I'd go and play sport when I
(36:33):
was cook anyway, thinking it's going to make me better.
But when I took some painkillers and dozed off, and
then when I work, I saw all these messages like
work wanting me to come in right now because the
head honcho wanted to see me about my pilot for
(36:57):
a show that's about cooking and eating with ambassadors. And
I was excited so quickly dressed and went to work,
thinking about how I'm going to get this show made,
and I thought it was going to be a one
(37:17):
on one. But when I pushed open this meeting room door,
it was just this huge table about twenty people sitting
around it and I thought, oh, that's odd. Yeah, And
then the next part was somebody standing up holding a
badge and said, I'm from the Ministry of State Security
(37:41):
wanting to investigate you for supplying state secrets to overseas organizations.
And my bag and phone were taken from me, and
from then on I was always escorted, even when I
went to the toilet. So then we drove from the
(38:04):
TV station to my apartment, and even the building manager
came out to meet them, so I knew that they
had worked this all out beforehand, and they filmed me
going up to my place, and then they started to
raid my apartment, and they knew exactly where to go,
(38:27):
so they didn't go to my kids room, or my
mum's room, or even the living room. They just went
straight to my bedroom and spent hours while I sat
in the living room.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What was going.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I was in a bit of pain, and I thought, one,
this must be a mistake, and two, I'm sure I
can explain this because I haven't done anything wrong and
I haven't supplied state secrets to overseas organizations. I didn't
even start to think that it was anything related to
(39:08):
bilatual relations. I just thought this will be a little adventure,
something to tell people about a story at the dinner table. Yeah,
that's right, and they got the wrong person. Yeah that's
why when they said, oh, you should turn off the utilities,
(39:31):
I thought, what why would I bother? I go away
for two weeks without turning off the electricity and it's
so stupid.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
And when did you realize this is this is not
going to be a case of oh, when they leave,
I'm going to get What was that about? When did
you realize that you were in real trouble.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I didn't realize the full extent of what they could
do to me, or what they could do to anyone. Yeah,
until months later. For example, even the next day, I thought,
if I could sit out this day, I would be
able to get bail or some sort of house arrest.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Did you under have an understanding of the Chinese system
or are you more thinking, well, you're more attuned to
the Australian justice system, where bail and those type of
protections might be more readily available.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I don't think I even had a full understanding of
any judicial system. It wasn't my beating, It's not. Yeah. Sure,
I read news articles and I know, and I've seen
too many American legal shows, which is not good preparation
(40:53):
for Chinese incarceration.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Doesn't You didn't read me by rights, that's not going to.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, yeah, give me, give me a quarter to call
my lawyer.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
So how did you feel like? I know, it's intimidating
for people when they're placed under arrest and yeah, we're
used to our freedoms and then have someone and I
say to look on people's faces when no, you can't
actually leave the room you've been detained. How did that
make you feel like someone physically had control of you
from that point in time.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
To a certain degree. In China, you hear about things happening,
so you're not entirely bewildered, but still, you know, the
more things they told me, I couldn't do the it
was just a very ugly, dawning things like you can't
(41:50):
put your arm over your eyes, you can't sleep facing
the wall. Those things you don't think about.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
So you were you were? You're taken from your home, yes,
and you blindfolded.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Even that in itself is quite confronting to be blindfolded
them and walked out in the in the charge of
someone else, not knowing where you've been taken well.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
When I was blindfolded, I was still in my you
know way till I tell people about this.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Oh, then they put the blindfold on.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, not knowing you would be you know, another three
years before I could actually tell that story.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, So where were you taken to?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I was taken to the well at the time, to me,
it was a secret location. But it's number forty seven
dahlmannlu Infonte District in Beijing, a place that I really hate.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It's not the type of place you recommend people visit.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
So it's the facility where they take state secret, not
state secret, state security. What would you call them suspects
or yes, aspect it the difference that you're being suspected
(43:10):
of something.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
A place where they can detain you without having you
not charged. They can just detain you at that at that.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Pacil people are often surprised by the different order of
pain that you experience. In the Chinese system. You get
the worst first, whereas in Australia, the US jail is
the worst.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You get it, that's the end of it.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, but their jail is almost paradise compared to say,
the first phase, which is RSDLA.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
And what's that stand for?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location, which sounds really benign.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
A lot of interpretations that could be made.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, residential. There's nothing residential about having two people stuck
to you for every minute of the day for six
months there.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I think that's just hard to comprehend when you describe
the conditions that you're in. You're in a small room.
You've got a bed there, and you've got someone standing
forty centimeters in front of you, and someone.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Sitting forty centimeters to your right, to your.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Right, and at all times twenty four to seven, yes,
and you're not allowed to talk. You've got to keep
your eyes open. You've got to sit on the bed
for thirteen hours a day, and.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
You've got to sit straight. You can't cross your legs
or ankles, you can't lean against anything, you can't move
without permission.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
How long did this go on? For?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Six months? That's the legal limit. Yeah, And many lawyers,
like conscientious lawyers, have lobbied for that to be abolished
in China because this is how how you how people
make cases. Right.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Psychological torture, Yeah, say anything, break a person, break a person,
get out of it. And then you get you get
taken them out for interrogation at their whim. Yeah, and
what did that involve?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
And under Chinese law, you're not supposed to have the
place of interrogation on the same premises as the so
called residential surveillance. But they give a different address to
the room right next door.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
But they put you in the wheelchair and put the
blindfold on you and were you down there.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
No, it's right next door, right, Yeah, So that in
itself is very dodgy.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
And you're in a restraint chair, so there's a big
block of wood that kind of that's locked in front
of you, so you can't move, you can't get out
of the chair, and three people video cameras recording someone
(45:50):
feeding them what to ask you, and every and really
just looking at every part of your life because they've
confiscated all all of your electronics.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
How often would you be interrogated.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
In the first month, Probably a dozen times, and then
it petered off after that because they didn't find anything
with switch to asked me. They just hit all these
dead ends.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Did you think that the insanity would have to come
to an end at some stage? Could you reach out
and speak to the embassy at this location. Could you
speak to your family, could you engage a lawyer?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
No? I mean the embassy came to visit every month,
and that was a godsend. But it's thirty minutes for
thirty days, and I often thought there's just not enough
time to say really important things like where are the
(46:56):
kids going to be? And what happens to my personal life?
You can't talk about your case. Of course, they have
a translator, and they have video cameras, and they have
all these officers sitting around me, even though it's by
a video link, and they're actually on the premises, and
this is another brand of Chinese gratuitus cruelty. Yeah, they
(47:20):
have to take all these COVID tests to come into
the detention center, and then the visit is still by
video link, and we always have to wear masks, so
you can't even seek any sort of or get any
sort of comfort from seeing somebody's face, seeing their smile.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
So you've virtually gone from a normal, exciting existence life
and you've been dropped into this environment, which is sensory deprivation.
I would imagine not being able to talk, not have
the freedom to move when you want in the cell.
Describe the cell to me.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
The cell is padded. In fact, everything is designed to
prevent self harm or I guess harming others. So thick
steel sliding doors to lock you in and doorless bathroom. Again,
the bathroom is padded, and there's no tap, It's only
(48:23):
a rubber hose. And okay that the tab is set
within the wall, so you have to put your fingers
in to turn it, and it's very hard, and obviously
they're afraid of you wrenching off, for example, a tap
too to do something. So when it got so bad.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
That people would tell you that I'm like the ultimate
life lover.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I love to live.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
But there came a moment when I wanted to die,
and I thought, how can I do it? The walls
are soft, right.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That there's not thing that there's this blue gray carpet.
But the only thing that was hard was the bathroom tiles.
And when I'm on the toilet, the guards are watching.
But I thought if I could just in that moment
before they grabbed me, if I could smash my head
(49:21):
against the tiles, Yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Would be some sort of relief because I didn't know
if I would see my family again, I.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Can't comprehend the low how you would be feeling too,
consider consider that and just no privacy, no communication.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, because you speak like five sentences a day, like
permission to go to the toilet, permission to go to
the toilet.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
So you're sitting there with someone standing in front of you,
standing in front of you, and you got to keep
your eyes open before you've seen and made this from me,
which is not nothing big, there's.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
Names really weird.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, how how did you occupy your mind and stay
sane during that? And I asked that genuinely, how do
you stay sane when that's going on?
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Well? Later I found out that I thought I had
it bad, but others had it worse. When the Australian
embassy lobbied on my behalf, I started to get books.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yep, in the detention center when in R SDR.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Yeah, that saved my life. You words cannot describe how
much of how much solace.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Some books escapeism for you.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Like literally I would read very comforting words over and
over again.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I remember this book by Melbourne author called Belinda Missen.
She writes some romantic stories, very lighthearted, and she was
describing this Victorian town and said there was a fish
and chip shop mhm, and all of a sudden, just
(51:23):
this rush of longing for azziness, you know.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
So thankfully I had the books, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
But I was on a drip feed. Yeah, so after
I had read one book, there was if you've got
thirteen hours, and unfortunately I'm a fast reader, son, then
what then I'm begging for another book? And I can't
(52:01):
even talk to the officers directly. I have to go
through the guards, so and sometimes they would like gesture
to me that this officer was really mean. And you know,
it's not a good idea.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
So when you say drip feed the books, you only
read the portion of it, because if you go through
a book that's gone, then you wait up.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
As in the offices would drip feed me the books right,
just enough to keep me from going insane, but I
would ration it myself so that I would wake up
and think, oh, I have a new chapter.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Today, something to look forward to me. Exactly did the
guards ever loosen up a little bit or were they?
And you said at the start of this you had
empathy for the guards what they're going through. Did any
of them let their personalities come out? Were they were.
They were too fearful to break the rules.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Some of them were very nice to me because I
showed if they were if they carved or you know,
like there were ways to show that you your normal,
decent human being. And I would always say good morning,
even if they didn't say it back. And there was
(53:09):
one guard who had the runs, and she radioed for
central command to send a sub but nobody could come,
so she couldn't leave. She couldn't use the toilet that
was just ten or five meters away, and she couldn't
go out those That's the sort of system you're dealing
(53:34):
with watching somebody crap her pants like and the shame
and the pain on her face. And when you see that,
that's how they treat their employees. And the officers have
pretty tough gigs too, then I guess you You know,
(53:56):
then doing what they did to me is nothing to.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Them would cause your concern. If they can treat their
own that way, what would they do for you? What
about sleeping lights out time or never? So like seeing
bright lights the whole time.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I used to think that I wouldn't be able to
sleep with the lights on. Yeah, But I guess when
you become extremely sleep deprived than you can natural sunlight.
Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Sorry, I'm.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Useful for showing your Australians there.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Look, let's just open the window and let a nice
breeze through.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
No, no, Oka, they're paranoid about you seeing what's outside,
even though once I did see because the curtain was
opened for a little bit, and even though the Australian
government lobbied for me to get fresh air, there was
only this tiny window near the ceiling that could be
(54:57):
opened for fifteen minutes a day, and they would always
make it so such a big production, like standing up
on the stool to quickly you get behind the curtains,
and then to open the window so that I don't
even see a flash of what's outside.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
I mean, jeez, well you are an international spy. What
you're capable of?
Speaker 2 (55:25):
I felt so inadequate. They really really overestimate me.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
James Bond, there was things that you did to pass
pass the time of day. I'm not going to mention it.
It's in your book. I'm not sure how to raise
the subject. Let's just say found found release and pleasure. Well,
(55:52):
you can explain it. You told me how to explain it.
But I thought it was very creative and it was
quite funny and it made me laugh.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Well, you do what you have to do, and if
you can, I'll look.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
On I'll help you out. It about pleasuring yourself even
when there's people watching. Twenty four seven our guests today
found a creative way to do it. I'm not going
to go into any further details other than the say
it's in the book, but it made me laugh when
I was reading it, So a little victory to you. Congratulations.
You've got to laugh at these things, haven't you. Well,
(56:31):
And I would imagine that.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Well, if if all there is, if the things around
you only give you pain, then you can create pleasure
for yourself. Whether it's remembering something beautiful or planning what
I'm going to say that's loving and affectionate at the
next embassy visit to my family, or going through some
(56:59):
you know, really lovely sentences in a book, yeah, or
other things. Then you just got to I think that's
actually very Australian to be self reliant. Because we're so
remote and we can't always get help. You just toughen
up and do things yourself.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
You paid tribute to the fact that the Australian side
of your help you get through a lot of this.
You think that's genuine because you understand the whole cultures,
But the Australian side just a little bit what we
like to think. We are a little bit rebellious and
get in, have a go and we can survive this
tough times. We'll get through that type of attitude.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
And we can always crack some daggy jokes, yeah, and
have a laugh at ourselves, have a laugh at people
who take themselves too seriously. Yeah, and get on with
it all right.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
Well, look we might take a break now that we've
only got your six months into a three year sentence,
and this is just the start of it. You haven't
even met yourself yet. And that's other little party tricks
that you got up to with your home brew and
daycake cakes and all that. We laugh about it, but
what you're also experience is that you're not just a deprivation,
(58:13):
but you're away from your family and all the pain
that that creates. So you know, as much as we
laugh at it, yeah, it was a hell of a
situation you found yourself in, but you're still here. They
didn't break.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
You, no, And I'm trying to Gary Gazza.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
All right, don't turn it on me. You're a professional journalist.
I'm just trying to make a living in this business.
When we get back for part two, we'll talk about
what happened with the trial, the sentence, and how you
eventually found your freedom and how you survived it, because
I think that's a really interesting time.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
Great cheers, Thank you, Ka
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