Tragedy of school girl Zahra Baker: Liz Hayes Pt.1

Zahra Baker was brutally murdered and dismembered by her stepmother when she was 10 years old. Former 60 Minutes reporter Liz Hayes sat down with the woman responsible in prison - and it was one of the few times she walked away stunned. On this episode, the veteran journalist takes Gary Jubelin through some of the biggest stories of her career including the dingo who stole Lindy Chamberlain’s baby to the murder of British backpacker Peter Falconio. 

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life. The average person has never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

(00:46):
I had a great chat with Liz Hayes. You probably
recognized Liz, after all, she's been a television reporter and
investigative journalist for more than forty years. In that time,
she's interviewed serial killers, track down pedophiles, and covered some
of the world's most notorious crimes. During Liz's journalism career,
she not only hosted The Today Show for a decade,

(01:08):
but also worked on the iconic sixty minutes program for
over twenty years. It's a position that's highly sought after
in the world of journalism. We spoke about a life
and the amazing experiences traveling the world reporting from war
zones to natural disasters. I also got the gossip on
celebrities she's interviewed. There is not much Liz hasn't seen

(01:30):
throughout her career. I work briefly with Liz as a
journalist and I always enjoyed her company, and today's chap
was no different. Liz, welcome to I catch killers.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Gosh am I killer.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
We don't know yet. That's the start of it.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Well, that is the exciting bit, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
If I caution you, maybe you need to get your solicity.
But I not caution you at this stage, So it
feel free to just discuss whatever whatever. Thank you talking about?
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
I feel right?

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Can I put up front? I'm nervous interview in you,
and I think I told you that the other day
when we're speaking. Then you said, why would I be nervous?

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, I don't understand why you would be nervous, because
you've faced off many a person who's been more threatening
than I.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Would have been well, we don't know. We'll find out.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I'm not one of your worries, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
But you are, Liz Hayes. And like from a journalist interviewer,
you've probably interviewed more people than I've locked up bad guys.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
I haven't interviewed a lot of people, without a doubt.
I'm a bit shocked about it myself, but you know,
I've been doing it for well. When I left nine,
I had been there for forty four years, and I
was a journalist when I was seventeenth. I've just turned
sixty nine, so I'm fifty two years to it.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
So that's a lot of experience. So that's why I'm intimidating.
And I'll put it up front too, I'm a little
bit jealous of you after reading your book and as
a sixty minutes journalist. That has always been I think
when I first saw George and Vegas driving along the
desert with a scarf around his neck on the g
such a showman he was, I thought, that looks like

(03:03):
a cool geek.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
So yeah, that was and it still is.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
But it was a cool gig way back then, when
you know, not many people were doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
You have. You've spent a long time in journalism. As
you said, what changes have you say in journalism over
the years? How does it change?

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Do you mean?

Speaker 3 (03:23):
In terms, nothing's changed about telling stories. That stays the
same as like policing and now you're telling stories. Stories
don't change. It's the way in which they're told, I think,
and how you get them out podcasts. We never heard
of computers in my day. We didn't have a computer.
I certainly didn't have a mobile phone.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
I came.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
I came from notebook and a pen and a typewriter manual,
not even a plug in typewriter. So just in terms
of how to deliver the stories, I think is about
the only thing that's changed. Of course, maybe the other
thing that's changed is that everybody's a bit of a
reporter now because if you've got a mobile phone or something,

(04:04):
you can record something and you can send that in
and suddenly you're reporting or you're capturing a moment. So
technologies I think the thing that's changed journalism. I don't
think fundamentally it's changed that. Beyond that, there's lots of fads.
Tabloid journalism has always been around. Maybe celebrities have captured

(04:29):
the market. I don't know why we're obsessed with celebrities,
but we are.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
So that sort of stuff.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
I mean, you know, once upon a time you would
never see the news bulletin start with Kim Kardashian, but
it does, even though there might have been a bit
of a nasty train accident up the road, you know.
I mean that sort of stuff startles me a bit.
But I think the fundamentals haven't changed. You know, lots
of stuff around the edges has changed, but telling stories

(04:58):
is still what it's all about.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Or in four or call into account. You know.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
That's the good thing about journalism. I think, you know what,
it is all part of democracy.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
I think it does play an important role, doesn't in
keeping people informed. We're going to get into how you
got into journalism, but before we do, because the podcast
is I Catch Killers, I've got to put a little
bit of crime in. Can you tell us about the
case that you recall or had an impact on you?

Speaker 3 (05:27):
The killer of Zara Baker, you know, the Australian girl
who'd had had suffered cancer and she and her dad
went over to America because he found online Lisa Baker
and she stepmother.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
She was the stepmother.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
She'd had seven husbands and he didn't know that she
wasn't divorced. But anyway, she ended up killing this little
Zara Baker and chopping her into pieces. So I interviewed her,
and I swear to God, that woman, Wow, wow. I

(06:01):
did come away going wow, there's no part of her
that's taking responsibility for this. Even though she pleaded guilty,
she's not taking responsibility for this at all. She's wow.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Trying to explain her crime.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
She didn't do it.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
No, no, no, she pleaded guilty, but that was so she
didn't go to get the death penalty in her She
just said, I didn't do it, and I feel really sorry,
and I'm so sad.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
I really miss Sarah, you know. And it's just like wow,
the evidence.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Her own lawyer told her, the evidence is so overwhelming,
you know, you there's not a chance.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
But I've met more than like the remember those type
that I didn't do it, did.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
The fact and the whole thing, and nor Man.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
And I think it's almost they get to the point
where they're convinced themselves, like they're just going to keep
this narrative going no matter what, Like you can produce
there's a failo of you killing the person.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
No, yeah, no without I was kind of shocked at
how hard she was going to go for I didn't
do this, Well who did?

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Did you break it down? List?

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I tell you what.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
The guards who were there at the time, they went,
this is not gonna be a not like this is.
Do we have to bring in reinforcements because I was
I truly thought, I just can't listen to you do this,
you know. I came away from that going, well, I
just don't understand how anybody could do that to a

(07:28):
little girl, I guess. And killing is one thing, mutilating
cutting them up is another. Hiding the bits in the
bush all. I just can't get my head around that stuff.
And so, and I don't know why women do it.
We know and she did, but I don't know. I
always think that's a big step for a woman.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I don't know why. I say, well, it's.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
A big step for anyone cutting the body up and
it's not easy, but yeah, it's I think there's a
misconception that women can't do those sort of violent crimes
because I've seen women do that. But the jury even
find it hard to convict someone of a murder if
it's a person that looks like their mum sitting there
in the in the dock. So it's an interesting take.

(08:11):
How have you stayed so grounded?

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Oh blame my mom and dad.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
And I've got four brothers who all tell me I'm
just best Ryan from Taru, and I am.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Look, I yeah, I look truly.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think it's that fundamental upbringing lots of people around
me who are just everyday people. I have always viewed
myself as lucky, but I took opportunities. I was prepared
to take a risk, but ultimately I was not good
at buying into the bullshit because I was a bit
frightened it would go tips up anyway. You know, it'd

(08:50):
be like, oh God, if I blow my trumpet now
and out of my ars next week, it's just going
to be embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
So I've always had that in the back of my head.
You've got to be a bit careful.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
And that you think that comes from your childhood, like
growing up you grew up in Tari.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, yeah, which is you know, just.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Topics till at the moment, Yeah, still very soggy.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Look, you know, I braxed my heart when I see
that now I'm a dairy farmer's daughter, and seeing those
cows wash down a river and turning up on a
beach is truly I can understand. You know, it's just
awful on so many levels. But also you know, so
many families, houses are gone and our old farm's gone
and all that. But country town upbringing is really interesting.

(09:32):
Everybody knows who you are, and whilst that's good, it
can be bad. But ultimately it's just basic. You're in
a small community. Consequences are quick.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Well, you held accountable in the small community because every runs.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Busy, yeah, and you learn very quickly what community spirit's about,
the good, the bad.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
You know, the gossip, but.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
You know how powerful it can be to support your
neighbor and what it means to take care of another
human being. And judgment is always there, but sometimes being
quick to judges, you come to realize that that's painful,
and that's hurtful, and that and that's wrong, you know.
So it's a combination of things. But and we were

(10:17):
never allowed to be arrogant.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
And it does hold you in good stead because the
positions you've had within the media, you could lose your found.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Lose absolutely and I think when I first particularly Channel nine,
I mean Sam Chism was very good at making you know,
he created this star state, if you want to put
it that way, and and you know it was I
could see how easy it was to get lost in
all course squad up in that that. Yeah, because and

(10:47):
for me it was like what you know, I mean,
this is all crazy, but yeah, somehow in all of that,
I you know what a lot of my colleagues are
from country towns as well.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, you've got to be a little bit rape us to,
especially with your work in sixty minutes some of the
places you go to.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
You've got to be robust in media, let's pay that's true.
You know you've got to if you're if you're a
bit fragile, I don't like your chances. And you know
I wasn't necessarily imbued with enormous confidence at all.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Well, you displayed your confidence very early in the confessional box.
And this is you know, I do my research before
we did my research. And well, I think you're eight
years old and following the Catholic faith and sent to
confessional and you got in there and told the price
that I have no sense I did.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
And the story is that he happened to be my
mother's uncle, the priest. It's country towns. We're on an island,
one little church and the professional boxes in the corn
without a roof on it.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
You know, it's just a little so everyone's listening.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Everyone's listening. And yeah, he shouted at me.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
I said, you know, I had the audacity to suggest
I had no sense, because, as I said, I hadn't killed,
I hadn't stolen. I couldn't imagine this week was pretty
clear as far as I could see as an eight
year old. And he just shouted back at me, you
are fighting with your brothers because.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
He had been staying with us. And of course he
was right, but I just thought, oh wow, an eight
year old people.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Well, I liked that you were staunched because I'd clapped
under the pressure. I've never been into a confessional box,
but Jesus, if the big fellows looking down at me,
I'd better tell the truth.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Well, I you know, all I know is that it
stayed with me. I have to tell you. I did
think how bloody harsh was that? You know, that was
a bit cruel.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
That is cruel, and and you know, I just thought,
if that's what you do to an eight year old,
My goodness.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Another part of your childhood we could I could have
been in the viewing you here as a former gold
medal winner, winners athletics.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
It was never going to happen. It was never going
to have my far.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
The thought that your father thought, oh my dad was well, look,
I was a very good runner.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
I was a sprinter. I wasn't a staye you know.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
I was a sprinter and I was very good in
my little circle. And I wasn't winner, and I did
get to stay competitions, but I was out gunned totally
by those who turned up. I was barefoot, the Sola
bard of Oxley Island. But yeah, the others turned up
with you know, spiky shoes.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
It was like, anyway, well what was it called Oxley? Well,
diminish that you're fast.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
As I was a Guinea Guinea flash there for a while,
which was another little community up the road.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
So I was a big deal.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
But as I said, I think I lost my ticker
and I thought I was a bit lazy. Dad had
me running behind the car.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Well, and you're a sprint and not a stayer. But
Cliff Young chasing the cows around the Paddy.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
I did look at him later in life and thought,
thank god I didn't continue, So.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
I felt good that I might have changed direction.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
You found that you're ostracized, probably too strong a word.
One of the schools you went to you didn't fit in.
They weren't your people. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
Look, and there you go, very small community, but there
we were on this little island. And then we went
to town, which is where the town was where I
went to high school, because the island actually had its
own school.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
I was one of three kids in my class.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
So where'd you come in the classroom?

Speaker 3 (14:33):
Did they always you know, one of the first three,
in the top three, the top three? So yes, no,
I experienced a little bit of what I guess now
would be considered bullying, you know, and it did set
me back. I did think I'm not good enough. It
really rocked me, and my grades went down. But Mom

(14:55):
and Dad had sort of picked up on something and
determined that I should change schools, and I hadn't spoken
to them about it because I was a bit embarrassed.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
I felt a bit, you know, like I'm not good
enough and I can't let on.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Difficult time, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
It is a really difficult time as a kid, particularly
and you you know I'm a pleaser.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, yeah, you want to be I want to be
one of the cool kids.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, you know, I want people to like me. You know.
So it's a really terrible time.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
But you found your tribe at your next school.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
I found the tribe that was just you know, kicking
around balls in the playground, just like me. You know,
I mean the good country stock, let's face it, and
no airs and graces.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
It was, you know, this is my tribe.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
So we've got Your career in athletics has not panned
out the way you'd hoped and upset the priests by
not being true in the confessional. You've changed schools you
leave school. Did you ever consider journalism? Was that something passion?

Speaker 3 (15:57):
I was always fascinated because the my dad always loved
the news. The newspaper always arrived and you know, no
one was allowed to touch it until dad had finished with it.
And when the news and we got a television because
there was a champion sailor and won a television, and
I started to see news on television because that's what

(16:18):
we were allowed to watch. I never thought in a
million years I'd be doing that, but I was fascinated
by news, and of course in the dairy the radio
is on and the news comes on, so somehow rather
that might have filtered through, but I didn't anticipate I
could do it until you know, ultimately an ad was
in the paper.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
And tell us about that.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
You started well that near and that went well to
begin with. I applied for the job a cadet journalist
in at the local paper, at the Manning River Times,
and Kenny mack, the editor Kenny McDonald at the time,
basically said well, we're looking.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
For a sports reporter and you know you're a woman,
you're a girl.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
I think out what good runner you were.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
I never even got that far because he said something like, well,
how do you reckon you go at the football match?
You know, because everyone knows that all the good interviews
take place in the dressing room and you know you
can't go in there. Well I could wait till they
came out, you know. Anyway, I didn't get it, and
ultimately they hired a big burly roar.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
I think he was from Sydney.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
I think he was a great guy all that, and
I think everybody decided he couldn't spell or whatever, and
he and the editor determined it was a great idea
for him to really pursue his career elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
And so I got another call.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Well, actually, my mother ran into the editor walking down
the street as you do in the main street of
a country town, and said, do you know, do you
think your daughter might be interested in applying? So mom
came home, and Mum was the star of our family.
She knew that that's probably what she would like, That's
probably what.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
I would like and if I went.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
Of course, by then I was working for the Forestry Commission,
earning forty bucks a week and Dad was like, that's
a good government job. And Mom's like, well, you know,
journalism could be interesting. It was thirty dollars a week.
Dad was like, you're kidding me, Why.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Are you leaving the you could be working in the
Forestry Commission.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
Oh, that's exactly where I could have been.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
Doesn't that isn't that important? Like your mom? And you're
attributing your mom to pushing the kid to take a
little risk. As a parent, you can think I don't
want them to take a risk. But what a great
mum that encourage you.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Oh, I think if I was.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Because it's changed your whole life.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Oh totally.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
My mother would speak to me under the hills hoist
and say, you don't have to do anything you don't
want to do it. I don't think you've got to
get married, don't think you've got to do She was
pretty on the ball about as a woman, as a
young girl, how I should be allowed to see my life,
not to limit it. And she was pretty conservative. But
at the same time, her cues were coming from her

(19:03):
own life as far as I could see. You know,
she she too didn't want to stay at home. She
wanted a job, she wanted to get out. She was
a personality, she had she had, you know, rains to
burn in many respects, and she wanted to use them.
And I think she didn't want that for me to be,
you know, tired down necessarily. If I didn't want that.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, I think that's great advice. And yeah, shape your
shape your whole career.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Well, she loved me to open the gate.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
And you know, in a country town, I did what
I probably would not have normally done.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
I got out, you know, I mean, mind you, I did.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Marry quite a few times. We go into that.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
I know, I just and she's just gone out with
a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
There's no judgment. We all make mistakes.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Sometimes they're not mistakes.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
I don't even know.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, in your book you talk at your first reporting
court experience was pretty funny.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Oh, it was pretty awful.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
It was day one off my condection and I was
told i'd be set up to the court. I'd never
been to the court, all, no idea what I knew,
nothing about police authorities, nothing, you know. It was totally intimidating.
And it was up the hill. Of course you've been there,
the Tari Court, which is the police station. The Catholic
churches were up beside it where I went to school,

(20:25):
where all those bullies were for a period of time.
And I just remember walking up that hill with my
notebook and pen, thinking, oh my god. But my editor
before I walked out the door, just shouted, don't forget
to bow.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Was like what I couldn't.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
I felt like, what, I can't turn around and say
what do you mean? Because I thought, oh, no, that
sounds I'm stupid. I can't so we don't have to
work that out. So I got up there, and of
course I was bowing hello, Hello, doing a lot of bowing,
bowing everybody, vowing to everybody, got inside, and finally the

(21:03):
clerk of the court came up and.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Said, you stopped.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, well you stopped that. We just a bow to
the magistrate when it comes through the door. And was like,
oh my god, no wonder. Everybody's having a little bit
of a chuckle.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
And I could just imagine the young fresh journalists and
the old hardheads legal people around there, the cops, everyone
would have just been going.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
First of all, I was a girl.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
I was, and I'm seventeen, so you can imagine I've
walked that is a man's world. Yeah, yeah, seventies, we're talking.
It was a man's world and there was no way
and I was. I was out of place basically as
far as they were concerned, except when they heard I
was from the local paper. And then I can see
them allmost thinking that's over. I thought her out later.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
How did you get it with your stories? You enjoy it?

Speaker 3 (21:52):
I did because it was a whole new world for me,
and I actually found some nice people who did tell me.
You know, you can check out the list beforehand and you.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Can see who.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
For a month or two, Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
I got a few hints and I got to understand
court hearings, and I was fascinated by that. I do
recall being so fascinated that I was sitting there in
the children's court. Issue came up and the magistrate looked
at me and I'm looking back at him, and he says,
get out.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's close court.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
And I was like, oh, sorry, So they gave you
a bit of letitude.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
Oh yeah, No, they came to know me, and I
came to be nice to me. But yeah, But and
of course it's small. You know everybody. It's a local,
it's a local court. I mean, there are lots of
people driving through committing crime, which was always helpful. But
when it was a local you just actually in a
small community.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
When when they're driving fast up that highway and there's
a big accident, and there always was, you always were
worried that you would know who that was, that's and
in the court room you always felt, please God, don't
make it one of my family.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
What was that charge?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
But so it didn't, and of course the inevitable did.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Happen, and you had to have the report on someone.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yes, I had to report.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
I was sitting there and I did see this on
the list, this woman whose name just didn't register it
with me, I don't even and it was up on
fraud and I thought, and I was sitting there, I thought, okay,
and in came this woman. I went, oh, oh my god,
I'm her bridesmaid coming up in the.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Next door in the next month or two.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
And I just remember thinking, oh, anyway, I wrote dutifully
down all the details, and she kind of looked, but
she looked away, and I just thought, I don't even
know what I'm going to do here, But anyway, I
wrote it all down, and then I got back and
I just I thought, I'm just going to bang it out.
And then of course, before my bum even hit the seat,

(23:53):
she's ringing me to say, please don't, please, don't report
this story. Please I don't tell the family, and.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Be don't report this story. And I'm like, I'm made.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Fairly, you know, And I just said, I just because
one of the things I was told I had to
present all the stories.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
I wasn't to pick and choose.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Okay, well, I was told that very but it's a
lesson than a small environment that you would have encountered
that there's a lot of moral decisions to make in journalists.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
And it is.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, and it's funny you should say that because things
aren't I know, things are black and white in law,
but sometimes people's behavior falls into categories that you just go, god,
you know, does that make them entirely bad? You know,
you are constantly making decisions about how to deal with somebody.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
How to report them?

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Is this is this where you in your case perhaps caution,
I don't know, or is this a place where you
go to up to someoney and go, look, I'm going
to have to tell this story. But can you tell
me why you know or something you know? Just it
is a constant.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Well, funny you say that, because I know when I
first came into journalism and there was policing was black
and white to a degree, or what I was doing
as a detective locking people up. So you know someone's
done something bad, you investigate it, lock them up if
you can move on to the next one. But when

(25:28):
I came into journalism and you know, I've been asked
to write a story on this andy and I'm thinking, okay, well,
which do I slant it this way? Or am I
objective enough to write a story. So a lot of
gray area in journalism I didn't realize. And I know
media get the kicking, but there's a lot of There's

(25:49):
some unethical people in there, like there is in the cops,
but there's a lot of ethical people in there too.
I've seen people that I respect in the media really
reflect on, Okay, should we tell this or shouldn't we
tell this story?

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Yeah, and you might be thinking about the long term
consequences for that person, maybe it's a mental health issue
or something, and it is you are having to determine
whether it's.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
In the public interest.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, that's that's a killer, because ultimately there's a lot
of stuff that's not necessarily in the public interest and
that would fall into a gossipy department, you know, is
that really the public interest? Is that something we're all
going to benefit from, that we will all learn from,
that will all go gosh, we should change the law,
do something as a result because of that. Yeah, but no,
it is a it isn't always black and white.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
And then for an eight year old fresh out of school,
cadet have been a lot of difficult discasser.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
It was frightening, it was hair raising and it was
you know, anyway, I turned up at the wedding.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
I wore the.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Bridesmaids, but the story was written and she did have
to tell the family and look and and everybody got
on with it. But it was Yeah, that was my
first hard lesson. Actually, I had to assess whether I
was up for this.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, it makes sense. How long did you stay there?

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Mannure of times? I was there for about four years.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Okay, Well that's a good ground thing. That's an apprenticeship,
isn't it.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
Oh, a cadeccy is That's exactly what it is. But
in a countrytown. I always tell people wanting to get
into journalism because usually they want to start at the top.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
They want to read the news at six o'clock.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
But ultimately I'd say, if you can get a foot
in the door, because everybody wants to be a journal
but you know, if you don't want to go to UNI, whatever,
But in my mind, if you can get a practical job,
if you can get a foot in the door of
a countrytown newspaper or radio or television, that's a great
place to start because you'll be asked to do everything.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, it's good advice. Isn't it really getting that done?

Speaker 3 (27:49):
And you will make mistakes, Yeah, and you will learn
in that environment potentially without suffering too many, too.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
Much damage, come more robust too. You get to understand, okay,
this is the way of the world.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
And you know how to ask questions. You'll learn what
are the questions? You know what brought you the Sydney?
Oh husband, okay, finding love?

Speaker 2 (28:15):
No, I was already married.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
My first husband was offered a job to He was
a builder and come to Sydney, so I thought, what not? Yeah,
of course, you know, well, you know, it's his job.
And I didn't have any serious issue with that. In fact,
I saw that as okay, well, let's see how it rolls.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Give it the game. So you came down here with
the intent and getting involved in journalism.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't think that a country town journal
would measure up necessarily. I didn't have high hopes, but
I did think that I should give it a shot.
So I applied for jobs to everybody, including Arta Buttros,
who said thank you, no, thank.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
You, you know, but fair enough. But yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
Kept banging away, and I think I spent a lot
of time sitting on a bean bag watching.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
What happened to bean bags.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
I don't care what you say there.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Okay, they're not really stylish, but they are comfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I don't know how you dress it up hard hitting issues.
We discussed eye catch killers, but they were good. They
were very comfortable. Okay, so you're down there.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
But you did get a start, yes, yes, so I
got into I got into magazines and then the editor,
which didn't go that well. Necessarily. I'm not good with celebrities.
I just am not so.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
And this was a magazine.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Oh actually the magazine was to Rifle was Signature magazine,
which was for American Express people who were expecting, you know,
very high level articles on wine and accommodation. I had
none of that. They also did TV Week and whatnot.
So anyway, I wasn't great with asking people.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Instead of wine. There was reference in them you actually
drank the wine.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
As I was set out to do a story on
this new organic vineyard out of Mudge, and no one
told me how to spit it out.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
That's nice. I look another one, but you know, and and.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Of course you know, we started after I had a
piece of toast and VIJI.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right, it was that early and.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
It was, and I did thank my photographer because he said, look,
I'm just going to take us all down to get
some shots.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
In the videos while you sit down.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Time to leave.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
It was very funny. I mean, I just don't know how.
I know.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
It's well, you've got a fall, so you can get
back up.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Remember thinking, wow, how to get drunk on the bloody
first job out of town?

Speaker 1 (30:57):
So how did you find your way in the TV world.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Then the editor of that particular group of magazines was
made the head of publicity Channel ten, and even though
he had had to sack me, he did ring at
the magazine.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
He did ring me. I think he knew I was.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
I think he just knew I was a decent person
and I was trying very hard. So he said, look,
would you like to come and join me in the
publicity department. He was taking a couple of people with him,
and I thought, yes, of course, I've never been to
a television station in my life. And of course it
wasn't good at publicity either. Just I was a storyteller.
I was a news storyteller, and so he was the

(31:39):
one that thought, I can't sack her again.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
I'm sure that's what he was thinking.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
He spoke to Tom Barnett, who was the news director
of the time, and Tom came up and declared that
there was probably a position in the newsroom and I
had great.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Pins, that's from your running crew.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
And of course I can understand why he said.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
That run up and that was perfectly that was perfectly
acceptable in those days.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
It was perfectly legitimate. Yes, it was.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Well, you couldn't have night could if they said you
had good pins? Well let's try.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
You know, you and I can laugh about this, but
you know in certain circles you can't laugh. You've got
you've got to say how terrible.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
That was inappropriate?

Speaker 3 (32:22):
Red flag anyway, back then, I didn't blink. I just
said my pins and are coming to the newsroom.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
So we did.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Don I went and I learned the art of broadcast
television done there, and that was a pretty pretty quick
learning experience as well. But it was great, and there's
some fabulous people there who really helped me understand.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
And were encouraging you and guiding you.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Totally get out of that purple with Frock. That's really ugly.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
I mean, I learned that was the confronting bit was,
oh no, I've got to be on the telly, and
you know, I hadn't perfected the art of looking good
in any shape of the imaginery.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
And like when you're in front of the camera, like
you're critiqued on everything you do, how you speak, how
you pronounce a word, how you look, and more so
for a female than a male, how do you look?

Speaker 2 (33:16):
You have exhausting, isn't it? How did you go?

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well? My head never helped, but I like your hair, Oh,
thank you. But yeah, you've got to You've got to
be robust. And I don't think people understand the pressure
of a live cross. Like if you do a live
cross and you're standing there, there's all this noise in
the background. You know you're going to be beamed in
live and you want to get one go. You've got

(33:41):
the piece in your ear that you can't hardly hear
what's been said, or it's coming in a second late,
and all sorts of things. So did you have any
bad experiences with your in front of the camera.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Oh, I'm sure I had a zillion, But ultimately I've
got to try and remember if there was any at
Channel Tan. Ultimately, no, I just had to get mine.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Shit together.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
You and your pins me and my pins.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
No, I just had to I just had to learn.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
I just had to pick my game up and work out,
watch others and see see where I was going wrong.
I mean, I think it's important to see your own
work and go whatever I can improve on that. So I,
you know, I got I got through, but then I
got poached to go to Channel nine.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Look at you you're on because of your pins. Again.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
No, I came on a phone call, so I don't
think anyone did see what pins at that point.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
But yeah, no, and Channel nine.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Of course, when I walked in, I knew this was like,
oh because over ten they were having a great.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Time because ten was well I won't say what's a
big deal and what's not, but ten back in that
time when you were at ten, they are a pretty
big deal TV.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Well they were.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
But though they had a lot of young new people,
it was you know, the first time they had a
double head news. Katrina Lee was the female reader, and
it just it just had an energy and a vibe
which was you know, it had a fair bit of spirit.
But when I arrived at nine, it was like, okay,
this is very serious business. Well you notice a different

(35:24):
totally totally, totally, and not a lot of reporters, you know,
but those entrenched serious being around for a long time
reports and Brian Henderson, you.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Know Hendos sitting there. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
And that's when I thought, Okay, I've got to get
into get into serious mode.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
And did you really have to apply yourself to it?
Like did you like gome critique practice.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
I'm just no, I wasn't that kind of person where
I practiced anything. But I realized, Okay, I've got to
I've got to take I've got to step up. I've
got to just yeah, I've got to exactly. I can't
just think that's good enough or just feel lucky I
got through. I'm now going to have to make it
that I always will get through and I'm going to
make lift my game to that point where it's not

(36:13):
an issue sending me anywhere.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
But I had to, you know, I had to get
I had to get on my game.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, well, I can imagine that the pressure because it's
a spectacular fall. The more you've become known, it's a
big fall, and if you're not in the good books,
you're out of the industry very quickly.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Because it's still it was a man's world. And still
I was the only woman. In fact, I was replacing
the only woman had been there, so I you know,
it still was you know, I was still a.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Bit of a token. I could tell. You could tell
the place is not full of women at all.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
So if I'm the only one here, all right, why
you know, you figure it out. But you don't want
to just be, you know, the token woman. You do
want to so that you're you're worthwhile, you have a
reason to be here, your value.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
You're right, absolutely, Yeah, And when did you get offered
to read the news?

Speaker 3 (37:09):
That was oh quite yeah, down the further down the track,
at nine, after I'd been there for a couple of years.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yeah, they asked me to read the news, which was
just like what.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
I'd never never aspired to read the news, you know,
it was like, oh my god. Anyway, and by that time,
we were in a new news room and everybody was
sitting around you, you know, and you're at a desk
in the middle of them, and.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
You're nowhere the high Oh oh my god.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Truly I think I could have had a stroke.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
I understand you would be nervous news. You don't hardly
see anyone stuff up on the news and if they
if they do, they've been there for twenty years and
you forgive them.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
But no, you're not allowed to know. You've got to
be worded perfect basically. But back then also the auto
cures paper and Sylvia was feeding it through this machine
and so on the screen up comes the words on
the paper that she's feeding through. But then it would
get stuck in her hand would just come up on
the screen and that would be all you could see
and you'd be like, oh, when that happened, that was

(38:15):
the end.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
That was the end.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Did you like in reading the news, did you keep
yourself aware of what you were reporting on or were
you basically just reading off the or their cuds.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Well, at that stage, I was just having to sort
of get the autoque sorted. And it was so we
had a morning news eleven am news, but we also
had an evening news and that could and we would
get a call to say, the news tonight will be
two minutes long and it'll be at ten past ten,

(38:46):
and be like, or the news to night beyond nine
thirty and you need to fill up forty minutes.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
And there was just the two of us were like, oh,
my God, what are we going to talk?

Speaker 3 (38:57):
No, while we would drag up the news from the
six pm and you know, revoice a lot of that stuff.
But it was a great again, a great learning experience,
and you know, we just made the best of it.
But yes, then I know broadcasting became something I understood better.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
So you're still carving, carving your way through the career
and these are all what you consider a step in
the right direction on what you wanted to achieve or
were you just having a look at the whole.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
I didn't have a game plan. I just didn't have
a game plan at all. I was still coming from
a place of.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Wow, how did I find myself here?

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Oh gosh really because again that confidence I didn't have,
you know, a massive amount of confidence.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
So I was always a.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Bit surprised and I'd be like, oh, and then I think, yes,
I can't say no, I should say yes to this.
And I knew I was taking a.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Risk, okay, but you had the courage to take that risk.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
I always felt like I didn't want to regret saying no,
So I was taking the risks. So I was prepared
to do that. And then and it happened with the
Today Show as well, because I was asked to fill in.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Well, the Today Show takes at another level, doesn't if
you're the and you hosted the Today Show for ten years?

Speaker 3 (40:10):
I did, I did, but I came in filling in
for some for patrise Newall, who was the co host
at that time with Steve Libbin, and I would fill in.
But you know what, I sat in that seat and
felt immediately.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Comfortable, felt right for I couldn't. I was shocked actually quickly.
I don't know why.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
I mean, I was aware, you know that I had
to sort of, you know, bring my A game to
that as well, but I don't know that it was
at that time of my life.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
It just suited me. The hours, didn't.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
What type of wake up call? What was the alarm?

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Oh? Was it like three in the morning or something?
And poor old Geraldine from the reception at nine, her
job was to back in the day. I don't think
they do that now, would ring you morning? Liz?

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Oh god, that was just the because I was not
good at going to bed. You know, you want the
sun to go down, don't you?

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Mostly so? But you know, I love the Today Show.
But of course the Today Show is.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Really where eyes really came to understand me. I had
a few marriages in that time I was doing this
live television. I had a Kerry Packer, somebody I came
to know, Sam Chisholm, who was my god. I was
now in this world and I didn't have a manager

(41:41):
or anything like that. We didn't have managers, and I
had to fight for a quality, you know, in how
we were presented on the show, but also pay I
never got a quality, but I had to fight for
a pay rise and stuff like that. And I think
that that was good for me.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Well, it would certainly toughen you up.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Sure did it? Sure did?

Speaker 1 (42:04):
How did how did your life from a personal point
of view change when you became such a public figure,
because you really, if you're hosting the Today Show and
the way that Today Show ran, how did that impact
on you?

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Well, as we see today, the Today's Show and those
breakfast shows have people. You're there every day pretty much,
so you become very much front and center in this
world of well, we don't have royalty or anything like that,
so we're about the only celebrities. Then it particularly you

(42:39):
know that you're the person we wake up to do
you know? People used to bet on what color I
would wear. I've been finding these people are coming up
to you. You listen, you know, do you know what Back
in the day, we used to have betting at work
about what color you're going to turn up?

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Make sure given you a tip, you might have made
a bit of money.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
I might have.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
But first of all, I had to come to terms
with being so public. I didn't appreciate how public that
would be. Secondly, I wasn't the smartest person because my
public my private life was now going to be very public.
I really should have got a better grip on that.
And just generally who you are. That's an internal conversation

(43:21):
you begin to have, Who am I? I'm out there?
Well the media, whoever's decided to have a go. I
was having a go, and I'm I'm now questioning, Am
I that bad?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Is that really how I'm seeing? Am I really awful?

Speaker 3 (43:38):
You know?

Speaker 2 (43:38):
And it's a really terrible time to have.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
To And I was thirty or we went from thirty
to forty years of age in that period, and I
just and I took a few tumbles in terms of personally,
I just you know, I had a couple of marriage breakdowns,
and that was what was all that was being discussed.
Plus I had found myself with a stalker, so everything

(44:02):
was out of.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Kilter there for a while. But the constant was my job.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
The thing that anchored me was getting up with that
hideous hour and turning up and being with people who
were very supportive, and Steve Living was like the most
stable man in.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
My life other than my dad, you know.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
But yeah, suddenly suddenly you're constantly aware of yourself. And
I wasn't aware of myself quite like I had been before,
and everything about me was up for grabs.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
So you had to become comfortable within yourself when I.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Had to find it.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, I had to.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
I had to, and my parents played a big role
in that. A couple of times when I just thought, Wow,
I'm falling down at Krebs.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Here imposter syndrome, did that sort of how have I
got to this point? I shouldn't be here and I'm
going to be discovered.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
I don't you have a little everybody has a little
bit of that, And I didn't think about it like that.
I just felt like, oh, I don't want to embarrass
myself or fail. But of course I think anybody. Well,
I think normal people have moments where they go hope,
I don't rule this moment, So I think that's common.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
But yeah, it was. It was.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
A time when I had to smarten up again on
a personal front as well as on a job front,
and to have a pretty strong conversation with myself about
who I am, who I want to be, and how
I was going to negotiate this was if I was
going to stay in it, how I was going to
negotiate it. So you know what I basically everybody thinks

(45:40):
it's hysterical, but it's not. I thought I'm going to disappear,
so I joined sixty minutes.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Yeah, no, that's good. If you hide, hide out in
the open, no one will find you.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
No. But what it meant was I was not around
as much. I was just not that daily person on
the news or on the Today shy. I was not
at home being found by paparazzi or anybody else.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
I was able. No one knew where I was. And
you just take yourself off the dial. And it worked.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Okay, it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
It doesn't stop headlines.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
I know that, but that daily grind, people knocking on
my neighbor's door, what's happening?

Speaker 1 (46:20):
My take on morning TV, it's almost like we own you,
Like if you get up and the TV's on, you're
getting yeah, well I see you every day. It's so
I can understand.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
It's the view of the viewers of AR views are
usually fantastic, although you'll get those who you constantly tell
you how terrible you are. But but it's really that
which goes with it, that public you know, outing of
you are on so many levels, like you, you look
terrible today.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
You make a mistake, it'll be on the front pine you.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Know, another marriage over or whatever. It's as a human being,
it takes its ta and.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Like going through those relationship separations or a marriage, it's
painful enough. But if it's out in public, and then jeez,
it is.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, that is awful.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
And I'm very sympathetic to anybody who finds themselves in
that position because I've been there and I know it
doesn't matter. You can't go knock on everybody's door and
say it's not true or whatever. You just have to
suck it up.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
You have to. You're tough enough to you'd have to.
So with sixty minutes, how did that offer? And again,
I say, I'm jealous because it's I reckon, it's it
should be a great job.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
You should be just because actually, if I was to
tell the absolute truth.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Absolutely in fact, too many people God yeah, I think, yeah,
I don't know. I think the secrets how people go?
That's cool? Yeah, how did that come about?

Speaker 3 (47:48):
Literally, Peter Mekin, who was the head of music courrent affairs,
rang me and said would you like to join sixty
minutes Tracy Kuro, who is the reporter at the time,
was leaving, and I thought, can I do that? So
there's your slight imposter syndrome as I had that member.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Of because you could be taking on the head of
government or also any story.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Well, I had reviewed this program so and I knew that,
you know, even though the toenation was fabulous at teaching
you how to get to the core of the subject
in four quick questions or whatever, you because you had
to and it's live and there's no turning back. I
knew that I was stepping into a place that I
really would have to dig deep into conversations and know

(48:37):
and really know my stuff and all that. But I
did see it as it came for me at the
right time. Ten years was enough. But also I felt
like I just couldn't. I'd been divorced, and I just
thought it's time to take this next risk in life, all.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Right, and well another risk, Well it is a risk
risk challenge, but yeah, because you could go on there
and for whatever reason it just didn't click.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
And it does happen.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
You know, some people come to sixty minutes and not
so much reporters as ORTHO. You know that can happen.
But because it's a it's an ecosystem. You know, there's
a you know, producers and cameramen and some people and
what was required of us back then it's changed now,
I have to say, because COVID changed everything. But we

(49:31):
would be out there forever and you'd be traveling with
three other people and you just have to make that work.
So and it didn't always didn't suit everybody.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
And I think there's like there's a fun times, but
in the times, I've been a way of sixty minutes
work hard. Like it's yeah, I was very impressed, not surprised.
But now we're going to get this shot. There will
be another two hours. Yeah, let's do it. And yeah,
I see everyone really roll their sleeves up and get
into it.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
People are al who's surprised at how long it takes
to shoot a story, and it is because you're going
to all that trouble to get some really interesting pictures
and angles, and you know, there's a lot of black
holes to fill. But there is a lot of behind
the scenes work that takes place. So it is a
lot of hard work. When I was there, I think

(50:22):
we were blessed. We had a very good budget. That
wasn't an issue.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
And yeah, I heard people win about wing about in
the old days.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Well, and we should never talk about the old days
because it's like it's hurtful. But no, in my day
it was fantastic. But I think even today, you know,
it's tough. Like all media businesses, it's not so you know,
business class trouble is not on the agenda. But we

(50:54):
could go anywhere in the world, but we always had
to come back with the story.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
But you know, there were some pretty shitty places were.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
To Yeah, there was I was looking and people to
get a sense of the amount of travel you do.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
Oh, I could be away easily six weeks at time
and go around the world. You know, a couple of
times and change producers a couple of times.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Well I'm just and this again from your book, and
this is talking about one particular time, just one night.
Itinery had me covering the cloning of Dolly the Sheep
in Scotland on the twenty sixth of March, and then
traveling to London, New York, and Los Angeles, eventually landing
in Miami, where, slightly hungover and somewhat starstruck, I interviewed

(51:40):
the BG's and loved them. That's in brackets. You must
have really loved them. On the eighth of April, I
reported in Bogatar, Emerald Mine on the eleventh of April,
then Afghanistan on Anzac Day. On the fifth of mayl
I was in Pakistan. Three days later. I was sitting
down for lunch one of my favorite beast side restaurants
in Sydney. That's crazy travel.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
It was, it was, and you know it wasn't as
I was. I kept a diary. I'm so glad I did.
I don't know why I did.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
You know why I did? I do know. I was
trying to keep up with what I had to be doing.
I'd be like, so what am I doing? Now? I'm
going to wear. That's why I kept the diary. But
I would write.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Things on the way because it just kept me vaguely entertained.
But yeah, even when I went through my own diaries
again over those twenty five years, I do think, what
the hell I do recall it being, But I was
excited and exhilarated by it at that time, so I
didn't mind. And I think at the end of one trip,
I arrived home from around the world and changed bags,

(52:40):
got less clean unders in and went straight up to
do Dolly done the next day.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
I think that was in the same same year You've
traveled to Moscow. The interview the anty time, we're going
to speak about the astronaut. I always wanted to be
an astronaut because I couldn't be a sixty minutes report.
Sounded pretty cool. To Kakistan and Beakistan, London, Sydney and
off to Honduras. Yeah, crazy crazy travel. Yeah, let's because

(53:11):
it is a true crime podcast. One of the stories
that you talk about that you saw from start to
finish was a Lindy Chamberlain case and from when you
were reporting on the Today Show and then how it
played out for people that don't know and I think
most people would. Lindy Chamberlain had her baby Asaria, which
now we accept was taken by a dingo, but she

(53:31):
was convicted of the murder.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Yeah, she was.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
She and her family were camping at Ularu and adingo
literally came into the tent and took baby Azaria, who
was like six weeks old at the time. And it
was one of those stories that that divided a nation.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Everyone had an opinion.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
There was a Hollywood film on it, Meryl Street played
Lindy Chamberlin. It was one of those stories that divided journalists.
I'm sure it divided police, but the community generally. It
really really it really, You're right, everybody had an opinion.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
What's your thoughts on that, because the media played a
big part in that, And what's your take.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
On Well, my take on that is similar to Johan Lee's. Yeah,
a very similar story where her boyfriend Peter Falconio at
the time were not quite backpacking because they were in
a van, a Comby van, but they were in Australia
from the UK having a year of working and traveling
around and they were traveling up the Stuart Highway I

(54:37):
think it was, and out of Alice towards Darwin, and
a car came up behind them it was dark and
motioned to them to pull over, and they were of
the opinion that something was wrong with the car and
that's why they pulled over.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
That was a horrible, horrible case. But I know there
was a lot of people had opinions about her and
of them because of the way she reacted, all the perception.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
Of the way she Yeah, I think there were a
couple of things. And I think Peter's never been found.
His body has never been found, and you can if
you go out there, you can tell why. Wow, if
you found him, it would be amazing.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
But also.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
It was I think part of how she reacted, which
is like Lindy Chamberlain, it didn't fit the mold or
the expectation of somebody who would be in this terrible
situation grieving with Lindy Chamberlain. I happened to be at
Channel ten and I remember hearing over the radio this
report while I was in the office about I didn't

(55:39):
go had taken this baby, And I remember thinking, wow, gosh,
because back then we'd never thought it didn't go or
do such a thing, or could could do such a thing,
and I think when I was at Channel nine when
it was reported again and the Today's Show in sixty minutes,
it is one of those stories which if if it
gets into people's head early enough, they have trouble shaking

(56:04):
the fact they might have got it wrong, and the
media has a bit of trouble shaking it might have
got it wrong too, you know. I think we can
find it hard sometimes to say, oh, maybe we got
that totally wrong, but it was just and maybe kept
selling well, I don't know the story if you kept
countering the story, but I just I think it wasn't

(56:30):
assisted by some poor policing worker, forensic work. All those
sorts of things obviously played into it. It's out back
Australia at the time, you know, and I feel very sorry,
but I think that Lindy and Michael at the time.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Were religious people. Whether that played into it, It just
we were judgmental back then about a lot of things
for a lot of not so good reasons, and I
think that played into this narrative of it just couldn't
be possible that a dingo did this and somehow rather,
you know, these are peculiar people and.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Something obviously went you know awry and we'll say I,
Dingo did this. You know, I had a High Court
judge say to me, he's passed away now that he
believed there were questions about that case, not in a
good way, And I thought, wow, I couldn't figure.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
He couldn't quite tell me why either, just quietly.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
So I think we can get a prejudicial quite early
in the piece.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
I think because everyone had an opinion and it was
a snippet that could be a headline or that when
people hang on to that piece of information. What with
Joanne Lee's what was that about? Because I never understood
why people were.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
So well again, I think I think there was this
suggest you know, it's a bit like Linda Tambler as well.
You know, she's not behaving like she's straw together and
Joanne and lies is not behaving like she's supposed to
now that she's almost lost her life as.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
Well, abducted in the middle of the desert.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
And to be honest, when I sat down with her,
that woman is tortured by the fact that still today
people don't believe that she didn't have something to do
with Peter's disappearance. I mean, it's incredible, but I think
it really it gets a hold very quickly, and it
doesn't mean that there shouldn't be counter stories if you've

(58:34):
got evidence or if you've got questions. I don't think
you're not allowed to go against the grain. I think
you can, but I think you've got to have a
good reason to do it. But it never gave never
let up. It just never let up. And I think
I believe that that's where the media has played a

(58:57):
detrimental role actually in both cases, where it's just compounded
negativity for reasons I've not been convinced that the evidence
has been there to say that any of these people
are guilty of anything.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Other than those who have been Don't Go and Bradley murder.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
And I think that you talk about the perception of
how someone should react if they are in those situations,
and that's from a detectives point of view, that was
something we're always careful of because you don't know how
people are going to react in the most traumatic situation
you could find yourself in. And I think there's a
bit of a perception with like a female they should

(59:41):
be collapsed and crying because well, maybe they're hurting on
the inside, but they're trying to be brave for support
the others around them. So yeah, I found it interesting
on that and that you linked it to the joe
An Lee's one, because I couldn't get that because I
thought she was reacting perfectly normal in a situation and
like that, like.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
It's I think she was keeping herself away. I don't
know whether she knew how to deal with it, and
she was embarrassed because there was this, you know, a
little piece of gossip that got out that she'd had
an affair with somebody when she was in Sydney, you know,
at the bar that she was working out or whatever.
So it just it just I think it's the worst

(01:00:21):
possible scenario for her. You know, she's felt the need
to change everything about herself to sort of escape it.
But in her heart, you know, she's she was for
a very long time a broken moment.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
And that's a sense that you got totally.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
I totally got that. You know, she didn't trust the
media at all. I sat down with her and I said, ultimately, Joanne,
it's up to you how you do this, but it's
okay to be vulnerable, because I think that's probably I
know you are. I can see you are, but I'm
not going to make a fool of you. I just

(01:01:01):
want to hear from you, and I want you to
tell me what it feels like from the heart. And
I think she did. But I did change everybody's mind.
I don't there to change people's minds anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
It's so hard I and you know, we'll probably get
this editor or legal But the William Tyill case, now
I'm obviously very close to that. But what's been portrayed
in the media in regards to the foster mother that
we can't name for legal reasons. I just think it's
been disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. And I know the investigation obviously,

(01:01:37):
and I've watched that. I say publicly to people, I
think it's like the Lindy Chamberlain case, like everyone's got
an opinion. There's not a day I don't walk the
street and someone come up and offer, oh, she must
have done it. Why because some media headline or something
that the police have leaked to the media. And I

(01:01:58):
just think it's been so cruel watching watching that play out.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
I've got to be honest and say that is one
of the aspects of the business. I'm in which you
have to be very careful about uh. And we've learned
that the hard way sometimes where we thought it looks
a bit suss, only to find we were the ones
who had it totally wrong. I recently did a story
with Lauren's Onfrelo. Her husband, Jocksonfrelo, died and it's never

(01:02:27):
been revealed how he died or why he died. He
was found in a hotel in Melbourne. He was the
master chef and he was about to start publicity for
his new series, and the coroner determined it was not
in the public interest for anyone to know why or how.
And she didn't want to say and and there was

(01:02:48):
there was a slap up over she had to tell people,
and it was like, how unkind is that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Does she have to do it?

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
It clearly is a big issue you for her, And
it was like, Wow, people are so so feel they're
entitled and they take on a position and they will
judge a human being at the worst time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
We are making.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
Judgments about people who are probably in the worst place
they've ever been in their life. And it's really we
have to be really careful about that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah, And I see like or I hear not just
see I'm hearing like in Bill informed comments based on
what I'm young with. The evidence doesn't support that, the
facts don't support that, but that sort of gets lost
in the type of public opinion. But that's probably the
responsibility you have as a journalist.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Oh. I think as a journalist we do.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
And I you know, that's when you have to really
probably hang on to the facts, because that's when you
could if you stray beyond the facts in cases like this,
of the cases we've discussed, that's when you can get
yourself into deep trouble. And I think surmising is was
you just can't and I think I think we have

(01:04:07):
a responsibility to be diligent on that front.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Okay, well, look, we might take a break in the
part one. When we come back, will dive more into
the World's Best Job as sixty Minutes journalists and some
of the stories that you've covered there, which is quite
fascinating looking at some of the crimes that you've covered,
natural disasters, traveling war zones, all sorts of things. I

(01:04:30):
don't know where the conversation is going to go, but
I'm also going to talk about the death of your
father because I know that was a very I think
you've described as the hardest story that you had to tell,
and the lessons learned the importance of telling the story
about that situation. So if we take a break and
we'll be back, do I say, I'm Gary jubilin this

(01:04:52):
is I catch Killers that you can can I say that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Why don't you like Lauren?

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
I'm Gary Jubilan This says eye catch killers. We'll be
back soon.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Thanks, please,