March 17, 2025 • 36 mins
Senator Jacinta Price is no doubt a polarising politician. From cultural heritage to exploring practical solutions, Jacinta shares her views on virtue signalling, her vision for change in Australia and her message to the haters.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
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For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
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(00:23):
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(00:45):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Senator
just since a Price. We've been talking with Senator Price
about a whole range of things and getting a deeper
understanding of Indigenous related matters in this country and who
she is as a person. So welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
As I said in part one, I'm trying to find
easy questions for you to answer, but you've put yourself
up there in a position where give me the hard one. Yeah,
I don't reckon you're going to get too many easy ones,
but we are finishing off in part one. I'm going
to ask you another question. If things go your way
in the next federal election that is coming up this year,
(01:24):
I believe, and you become the federal Indigenous Affairs minister,
big question here, what positive impact do you think you're
going to have for Aboriginal people in this country?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
That is a big question. H Well, I think we
need to. My aim would be to lift our expectations.
I believe in order to be successful, we absolutely need
to be able to do that. What positive things? As
I said, I feel like there is there's freedom in
(01:59):
repetonsibility and being able to stand on our own two feet,
but that also comes with accountability. And I've always I've
always believed that we've got the structures in place to
support vulnerable people. We just need to make sure that
they're working effectively. So my other aim is to look
(02:23):
very closely at where the dollars are being spent, as
I said, across you know, Indigenous affairs, and to identify
where it is being effective, to identify where there needs
to be better accountability, to identify even when perhaps we
(02:43):
need to apply penalties so that you know, things like
fraud doesn't occur or occurs less because that comes with
the whole accountability measure. But empowerment, I believe, you know,
a government less government in people's lives is better than
(03:04):
more government, which is a coalition, which is a value
of those of us from the coalition. So if we
can see that we're investing, where we're producing outcomes, where
we can actually provide an environment for more opportunity toward
economic independence and economic empowerment, then these are absolutely the
(03:30):
sorts of things that I would look to establish more
firmly within Indigenous affairs. And again my priority would be
really identifying and understanding more closely who are more marginalized are,
And that's across the board. You know, I don't deny
(03:54):
that there are marginalized Indigenous people living in our cities,
and they would be part of that priority. But I'm
also acutely aware of the fact that, and because of
research that I've done previously, is that much of our
most marginalized, who sit behind right behind the ape all
are those whose first language is not English, who live
(04:16):
in experience the highest rates of DV in our country.
And I mean my mother was a woman whose first
language is not English. English like a third language to
her and education was for her was her ticket to
freedom in her life, and that to me is an
(04:38):
absolute priority. And I know there's an argument around bilingual education,
particularly for those who aren't English as first language speakers,
but I don't think we should be implementing bilingual if
it is detrimental to kids learning English in order for
them to survive and thrive in a modern Australia. I
(05:01):
think it can work hand in hand, but ultimately the
priority for me is to ensure that kids are getting
their education they need to succeed in life, and I
think our education curriculum needs to be reformed in that regard.
Mind you, that is working hand in hand with my
(05:23):
colleague Sarah Henderson, who you know, if we win government
is likely to be the Education Minister as well. So
you know, it's taking a look at all of those
things and understanding where the successes lie, where we can
continue to invest in, if not bolster, and understanding where
the failures exist and to ensure that we're not repeating
(05:46):
those failures.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Okay, and you mentioned then you use the example of bilingual.
Can cultural heritage still be maintained in economic development? Can
they co exist?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, let's face it, you know, when
it's come to the migrant community, many of the members
of the migrant community, they learn predominantly their culture and
their language at home and they come to school and
share those sorts of things. But they are able to
lead successful lives and that's what I want to see
a curve for Indigenous Australians. But merging, you know, culture
(06:20):
and employment and economic development can absolutely go hand in hand.
You know, I don't see why it shouldn't, and you
know we're seeing that as well. There are many businesses
that incorporate, you know, their culture and the arts sector.
I've had a history of working in the art so
(06:41):
I as a previously worked as assistant curator in our
al alou And Galleries in Alice Springs. I've worked at
the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory in
Darwin and been responsible for curating exhibitions across the board,
whether it's the Telstra Art Award or whether it's our
Desert mob Art Ward and the Yeah that the visual
(07:01):
arts seen for Indigenous Australians has always been a significant
place for economic empowerment for Indigenous Australians and that's incorporating
culture in that. You know, tourism is a great example
of being able to do that as well. Where that
can be done. Yeah, you know, you don't have to
discount one for the other.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Okay, So it's not sort of we're just going to
change completely abolish the culture, and then we got that's.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
No, no, no, we're not. There's no abolishing of culture.
Culture is important, you know, when it comes to those
living under customer law and remote communities, I firmly believe
in positive cultural reform in order to improve living standards.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay. You talked also about the B and dollar industry
that the money spent, and you said you want if
you got in the power and looking at where that
money spent, scrutinizing and making sure that it's going to
the people that need the money. What just explain how
you would do that and en sure that money spent
(08:05):
on indigenous matters is being channeled in the right direction. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Again, it's identifying where the failures exist and not repeating them,
and identifying where the successes are so they can be
invested in more appropriately in some circumstances. There are some
organizations that are struggling but doing a remarkable job in
providing outcomes. So you know, it's taking a fine tooth
(08:31):
comb to understand that landscape more closely, because why would
we want to continue to invest in something that isn't
working for example? And I guess understanding where something might
be struggling, with appropriate reforms in place, they could then
(08:52):
provide the appropriate outcome that start to produce outcomes as well.
It's looking at it holistically in that regard and governance.
I think governance is a huge area that needs to
be looked at more broadly. Uh. And the way that
some organizations exist under things like the CATSI Act and
(09:15):
whether the cats the Act is providing an environment that
encourages good governance or whether it needs you could so
fit and proper persons is sort of identified as you know,
those who can participate in leadership positions on boards and
that sort of thing. But you know, is that is
(09:38):
that description enough? Do we need to state that? For example,
you know, like I've been calling out recently, those there's
been men who have been have a history of DV
perpetration on sitting as chair people and significant organizations, do
we stipulate more prominently that that shouldn't be allowed, that
(10:03):
people who have had significant violent criminal history should in
fact be exempt from having the opportunity to sit in
leadership positions. Things like that I think are really important
at looking at going forward.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
And that what you're saying there doesn't have to be
race based either in any organization. If someone look, I'm
a big believer in redemption. I believe people need the
second chance. But there's certain things that don't align with
the values of a position of power, and if they've
made those mistakes, well, that's part of the forfeiture.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, But I do feel as though there
is a lowered level of expectations within the Indigenous affairs
space where those sorts of things would not be tolerated
outside of that, but are tolerated within the Indigenous affairs space,
which is why I would seek to lift those standards.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Look through the questions, there's no easy questions with you,
welcome to country, acknowledgment of the country. What's your thoughts
on welcome to country and the acknowledgment of the country.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So okay, when it comes to the recent announcements, in
terms of what we've identified the spend has been in
terms of Welcome to Country in Parliament. I think it's
it's it's well to me growing up in a traditional
cultural setting. It's it's a reinvention. I don't know what
(11:38):
it's supposed to achieve, and I don't believe that in
when it comes to the delivery of tax payers dollars
for outcomes, that's spending half a million dollars a term
actually a bit more than that, because I think the
Office of Defat has spent about one hundred k on
Welcome to Country that that money can be better spent.
(12:02):
And I think in these circumstances it should be used
for significant occasions. If we're going to maintain it, because
now it's something that's established, then it should be used
for much more important events. But I don't know. I
don't I don't think it is necessary. If people feel
(12:22):
strongly about wanting to put that forward, then why take
an income from it. I guess yeah, I mean we
being I just struggle with cultural reinventions if you like
having grown up in a traditional cultural concepts, because in
(12:44):
traditional terms, if you're going into somebody's country, well then
you'd light a fire and you demonstrate that you're on
your way into that person's country to pass through that country.
We're not necessarily living those that life anymore, and we're
part of a country that involves a whole raft of
(13:08):
Australians and so and I think it's important that we
move forward as a country together without separating us along
racial or cultural terms. And I just feel like it's
in many ways it's become a virtue signaling task for
(13:32):
some individuals and become a throwaway thing for others, and become,
you know, for those who want to virtue signal, we
don't really know what their true intentions are. They could
stand before us and acknowledge, but failing behind the scenes,
or are you know, using Aboriginal people behind the scenes
(13:53):
at the same time. And I just don't think in
the grand scheme of things and empowering and moving indigenous
and our most marginalized people forward that it is a priority.
Certainly for me, it isn't a priority for me in
this space. And in many ways, I guess when it
comes to traditional cultural elements, there are elements of that
(14:16):
culture that I've been trying to break free from that
my mother's been trying to break free from that. We
shouldn't have to be beholdened to something because it is
considered culture. There are many things in Western culture that
we say, hey, you know what, I don't want to
be I don't want to be part of that. I
don't want to participate in that or whatever. Freedom of choice.
(14:39):
We live in a Western democracy.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, I just put account of you with the Welcome
to Country, and I take on board the stuff that
you say, and I agree with it in part. I've
watched Welcome the countries or been involved in an acknowledgment
to countries, and sometimes they hit the mark perfectly. Sometimes
i'm by what it's done for me personally. I say, personally,
(15:03):
I can't speak just like you can't speak for all
Aboriginal people, I can't speak for all white fellows. But
it's given me a sense of it's made me aware
of your culture in part. And I take on board
what you're saying. Well, it's not necessarily the traditions that
you understood, but my schooling was we're talking about Captain
(15:24):
Cook discovered this country and can you believe the turned
up and there was no one here, and so that
was the history. I was fed, and then to have
this welcome to country when it's done right, and that
for the right type of event. You can't have a
welcome to country every time you walk past someone on
the street. It did sort of make me just a
(15:46):
little bit aware and reflect on what the history of
this country has been. So I think there was some
education there. So, you know, from my point of view,
I'm happy to see that the right at the right
event significant event. I get a little bit confused when
you have a HR meeting at work and someone doesn't
welcome the country and I'm thinking, what is this about?
(16:08):
So I know that's you coming out and saying that
would polarize the people.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, look, I have no doubt that it polarizes people.
And I also know that there are some Indigenous people
that come to me to say, look, they feel they
cringe when it occurs, and they feel uncomfortable about that.
They don't want to be singled out as the Indigenous
person in the room, like pay my respects to all
Indigenous people in the room. You know, it's like, why,
(16:36):
we're just just a person, We're just people like everybody else.
And then sometimes some welcome to countries say and everybody else.
So well that's everybody anyway, you know. And you know,
and I know some young people who feel a little
bit uncomfortable, like they just want to get on with
just being a student with everybody else, without their racial
(16:57):
identity being a matter of folks in the classroom and
those sorts of things. So you know, there are nuanced
views to this, and that's what we don't hear enough of.
And if you have a different perspective, then you should
be able to have that perspective as well. Look in
terms of our history, my dad was a history teacher,
you know, my mother was an educator as well. She's
(17:20):
a school teacher and history is so important for us
all and as a country. I don't think we have
necessarily done our best in terms of teaching Australians our history,
and we do need to learn the good, the bad,
the ugly in order to understand I think how far
(17:42):
forward we've come together as a country to appreciate that
as well. I don't think we need to look at
it as though, you know, individuals in our history as
are they complete, you know, bastards, and therefore we should
you know, I mean we have to learn from it, Yes,
Hitler was a bastard. But we learn from the horrors
(18:05):
of what occurred there so as not to repeat it.
You know, we don't. We don't hold all Germans accountable
for what occurred. And you know, in the world wars,
So we shouldn't subject our kids these days to guilt
politics in that regard. You know, a little white kid
(18:25):
born in this country shouldn't be shouldn't have to feel
guilty for being a white kid in this country. A
little Aboriginal kid in this country shouldn't have to feel
like they are a victim without agency and are powerless
to be whatever they want to be when they grow
up either in this country. But and you know, history
(18:48):
and the way we we we you know, our education
system is and the way we viewer one another and
accept one another is all a part of that. Absolutely.
You know, we talk about in our country, we had
the last sanction massacre which occurred in nineteen twenty eight
and my grandfather was a young and at the time,
(19:08):
and so he was a survivor of that massacre. And
we know the stories around that that surrounded that, and
you know how it all began and who was involved
in killing our family, and we held a seventy five
year commemorative service for that some years ago now, But
in that we invited the descendants of those who'd killed
(19:32):
our family to that to say, look, we recognize that
there was these were really tough times in our country's
history and it really wasn't that long ago. But we
also don't hold you personally responsible for the actions of
your grandfather. You know, we are together as one as
Australians now together and let's walk this path together. And
(19:54):
that to me was an act of forgiveness that took
place which I don't believe, which I believe we need
more of in order to progress forward as a country.
You know, we we we you know, we have experienced
the apology we have experienced. Sorry, So when do we
as Indigenous Australians say, okay, well we forgive because forgiveness
(20:16):
is also for the forgiver. It is it is about setting.
It can be totally empowering and and it can lead
to yeah that freedom, freedom of of of of individ
individuality if you like. And so there's so much, there's
(20:39):
so much involved in all of that that I think
sometimes we look too simply at the circumstances and luck
I said, yes, let's make sure that our schools are
teaching our children our history, you know, in more broadly,
but not in a way to weaponize it against anybody
(21:00):
or toward anything other than understanding who we are as
a country and how not to repeat the failures of
our past, and to understand just how far we've come
as a remarkable nation, where we've all contributed significantly, whether
weather from the first people's, whether we're from the migrant community,
whether you know my great great grandmother was an Irish
(21:21):
orphan who lost her parents in the Potato famine. She
married my great great great grandfather, who was dispossessed of
his land and brought here in chains as a convict
at the age of fourteen for breaking enter like these
are the human stories. We are all human.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
When you explain it that way, it makes sense. What
concerns me is that sometimes people and I hear people
and yeah, I call that racism because I was in
the cops and I call that racism, and there was
racism in the police. And hopefully it's getting better. I
don't know. I've been out for a while, but I
saw it. But you have people that extreme views. The
(22:00):
reaction from an extreme view on the left becomes an
extreme view on the right, and i'd hear people go, well,
I didn't take your children, or you know, like that
type of commentary where you're saying you've met with the
people from the massacre and you forgave them and there
was some reconciliation in terms of the past history and
(22:20):
moving forward. I see that positive. But it's just when
I say I worry some of the comments or the
comments that you make, or the position and this is
stating the obvious where you've been. It allows people to
jump on board going okay. But she said it's okay
and runs that through and I'm sure that lean very
(22:42):
much on. Yeah. I felt for you with the referendum.
That was a tough time, a tough time in your life.
But it was almost people saying, well, this is an
Aboriginal saying I'm going to say no, oh, therefore it
might be all right. So there was a lot of
pressure on you with.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Look and again, you know, I'm not just Aboriginal. My
dad's a white Feller and half my family white fellow
as well. But we're talking from a Yeah, Walbrian Celtic,
you get that's right. Yeah, and and and look, I've
never said it's okay to be racist. In fact, I'm
(23:20):
dead set against racism, always have been dead set against racism.
And people can take my views, and I don't have
control over how they react to my views, whether whether
they want to you know, suggest racist things on either
side of the debate as well. Like you know, that's
(23:42):
that's not what I'm aiming for. And I'm but I'm
not going to hide. I'm not going to hide evidence
or facts or anything like that. I think it's important
to lay it all on the table. I think it's
important for us to have respectful debate amongst one another
as well, so that we can because generally, look, you know,
when I do engage with you know, those Indigenous Australians
(24:05):
who don't agree with my position on things, or have
this perception of me because of the media or because
of what someone else says, or because they get a
snippet of what I've said without the whole what I've
said behind it all in greater context. When I do
have those engagements, the common thing that we have is
(24:27):
we want the same outcomes. We want the same thing.
We want to improve and better the lives of those
that we love. It's just how we get there that
might be a little bit different. And if we can
be more tolerant in the Indigenous community, you know, people
might feel like they can come forward and speak more
honestly and openly. But I know a lot of Indigenous
(24:49):
Australians who fear retribution. They see what comes at me
and they go, why would I want to put my
head above the parapet But certainly all levels of racism
I disagree with, and I disagree with this notion that
only white people can be racist, Like, as far as
I'm concerned, it's judging another person based on their racial
(25:12):
heritage negatively, that that is racism. And it's on all
sides of the fence. And and you know, when it
came to the Whole Voice debate, I was unpacking what
the whole proposal means or doesn't mean, or you know, uncovering.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
The lack of.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Uh, you know, detail to it and information to it,
and basing my position on the fact that well, despite
this build up of bureaucracy that is supposed to drive
change for Indigenous Australians that has failed, why don't we
fix that instead of plank and entire new bureaucracy on
top of this big mess that already exists. And again
(26:00):
my position is not about and a lot of people say, oh,
you took power away from Indigenous Australians. Well, you couldn't
tell me how this proposal was in fact going to
empower anybody. And why would I want to relegate three
percent of the population to an entity based on racial
heritage when we're all Australian striving for better outcomes for
(26:23):
us all.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Just wind back a little bit on what you said there.
When you have disagreements or with other members of the
indigenous community, but when you sit down they actually talk,
you want the same things, but you're going down to
a different, different path. I found the referendum it was
polarizing for the country. I don't know, and I've said
(26:49):
it here and I'm happy to say it. I vaded. Yes,
I thought it was something that wasn't and that it
changed things dramatically, But it was then acknowledgment of accepting
our past. Probably a very simplistic view, but I found
the discussions about that divided the country even further, which
really saddened me. Yeah, when you look back at it,
(27:11):
are you happy with the way it played out, well, it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Got the result that I was fighting for, so that
I agree with you totally in that it divided our country,
which was the worst possible thing that could have happened
to us as a country and that we did not need.
And it took away focus from actually trying to address
(27:35):
the situation, you know, the circumstances on the ground. It
took a whole lot of resources, It took a whole
lot of attention away from that. And you know, again
going back to things that I say, it suggested that
things that I say gives a whole past to those
who want to say racist things. Well, you know, telling
(27:57):
people that because they wanted to vote no, or you know,
planned to vote know that they are racists is just
as horrible I think, you know, when like as I said,
I believe that and Australians I think, have demonstrated over
and again the incredible goodwill toward Indigenous Australians and want
(28:18):
for better outcomes for us. All Australians want that overwhelmingly.
Many feel a sense of responsibility, but often they can't
do anything because it's actually out of their hands to
do anything. I stand by my position because I didn't
want to empower bureaucracy. I am fighting to empower the
(28:40):
little people. But I truly believe we have the mechanisms
and the structures to do so. We just need to
utilize them a hell of a lot better than what
we actually do when we need to fix those up.
And you know, that's what people need to understand. And
for those you know, Indigenous Australians that don't agree with me,
that potentially hate me for whatever reason you want to
(29:00):
hate me for, you have to understand that this is
my absolute aim, always has been my aim, because of
the death and destruction and the family members that I've
buried over the years. And the reason I'm here is
because of that, is because I want to work to
(29:23):
bring about those changes.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You talk about local solutions and breaking it down, the
local solutions, and you're worried about more bureaucracy coming over
the top. The irony is if you're speaking to people
that are in the polar opposite to you, they're probably
saying saying the same thing about local solutions to it,
but also about representation in parliament. Now you might sit
(29:48):
here and go, well, hey, look here I am, but yeah,
the complexities of it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Just it's so many complexities.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Did it have to be that complicated? Couldn't we have
just said yeah, yes and let's all feel better? Or
did Why did they get.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
So complicated unintended consequences of simply just saying yes because
it felt good, or you know, not understanding the detail
behind it. And we're you know, this is our nation's
constitution we're talking about as well. You know the fact
that I have huge problems with the fact that there
is a level of acceptance of individuals that many of
(30:26):
us know have got horrible histories, you know, criminal histories,
DV histories, sitting in positions of power, the potential to
enable them into our constitution, the ramifications of that I
(30:47):
did not want to risk. I did not want to risk. Ultimately,
you know, there's a there's a there's a there's a
person who's been an elder in Victoria who has recently
been in prison for his conduct which many Aboriginal Australians
knew for years was occurring, and it's only just caught
(31:07):
up with him. How many more of those individuals do
we know are out there? Let's face it, in our
Obiginal communities, we know who these people are who will
either get away with their conduct or it'll take just
as long for that to be brought to justice until
we can clean up our backyard. There's no way that
(31:30):
I could have supported a yes vote.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Okay, I didn't honestly think I was going to sway
sway we talk about. Yeah, if it goes the way,
you hope that you might be re elected. With the
election and the Indigenous Affairs minister, can you see a
way of bringing everyone together? Because when I talk to
(31:56):
you and when I talk to people at the opposite needs,
you both, as we identify it, you're both after the
same thing, it's just a different part.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Well, look, if that's the ultimate focus, I don't see
how we can't work together toward that. You know, I'm
prepared to sit down with anybody and to have those
conversations respectfully, of course, you know, to work out and
work a way forward, because I know that everyone wants
(32:27):
to contribute toward improvement, and if that's the ultimate aim,
then what else would stop an individual from wanting to
work toward that together? But also I also am very
much interested in hearing from those individuals that have been
(32:48):
perhaps ignored or sidelined or have been voiceless because I
guess like in many circumstances, in these situations, there's often
in organizations or whatever, there's a click.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
They can be a.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Click, you know, there's there's little communities within communities, and
whether people are prepared to allow others into those you know,
is up to them obviously, But there have been those
who have been sidelined, and I'm very much interested in
hearing from them as well.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, okay, well I think you can't. You can't offer
up any more than to give people the opportunity to
express their express their views. I wanted to ask some
some fun questions, just to have a bit of fun
because it's so heavy what we're talking about. But just
your downtime, Yes, you had ambitions or you were you
(33:38):
actually lived the life of a rock star at some stage,
your music, you work in TV, tell us a bit
about that. What rocks your boat?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
What rocks my boat? Playing board games with my kids
at home? That totally you know, you know, no, it does,
though my kids will tell you I'm very competitive. You're
not cheating it absolutely not, no, and I'll pull up
anyone who is. But look, no, like music has been
(34:08):
a huge part of my life all my life, as
far back as I can remember, you know, taking to
the stage and singing as part of the primary school choir,
learning violin as a youngster and playing that for several years.
Music's always just resonated with me and my self expression.
And then becoming part of a hip hop group as
(34:30):
a teenager.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
You know, I guess I performed well into my thirties
as well in terms of hip hop, and it was
a great outlet, like it was always got together with
with you know, the well couple of them my cousins,
and they're practically cousins anyway, right, But we wanted to
demonstrate a group of Indigenous kids who were doing something
(34:57):
positive in our community, because they are often headlines out
youth crime and that sort of thing. We're like saying,
look here we are. We're engaged with our community. This
is something we love to do. And we also wanted
to encourage our peers to consider doing something else then
get into trouble, you know, use music as a form
of expression.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I think role models are so good and we hear
a lot of it with sport, but if you could
get in the music in any field that role models
indigenous role models and all that. But yeah, yeah, I've
seen the smile on your face of a clip when you're
up at Tamworth Music Festival. Yes, yes, and I can.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
See on stage and my husband drags me up occasionally.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Okay, what life could have been, But you've managed to
find your way in the politics. Look, we've got to
wrap it up. But I have enjoyed, enjoyed the chat.
There's interesting views on what you've got and explaining things
that I'm the person that sits on the outside trying
to work out what's going on that's complicated the world
that you know you're operating in. I respect people that
(36:00):
passionate about things, and your passion certainly comes across. So
all the all the best for the future, and let's
hope we can make this place a better place.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Absolutely, and thank you for having me. And yeah, I
hope your listeners can have a little bit more of
an understanding of the human I am. But yeah, my my,
my door is always open.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Thank you.
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Senator
just since a Price. We've been talking with Senator Price
about a whole range of things and getting a deeper
understanding of Indigenous related matters in this country and who
she is as a person. So welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
As I said in part one, I'm trying to find
easy questions for you to answer, but you've put yourself
up there in a position where give me the hard one. Yeah,
I don't reckon you're going to get too many easy ones,
but we are finishing off in part one. I'm going
to ask you another question. If things go your way
in the next federal election that is coming up this year,
(01:24):
I believe, and you become the federal Indigenous Affairs minister,
big question here, what positive impact do you think you're
going to have for Aboriginal people in this country?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
That is a big question. H Well, I think we
need to. My aim would be to lift our expectations.
I believe in order to be successful, we absolutely need
to be able to do that. What positive things? As
I said, I feel like there is there's freedom in
(01:59):
repetonsibility and being able to stand on our own two feet,
but that also comes with accountability. And I've always I've
always believed that we've got the structures in place to
support vulnerable people. We just need to make sure that
they're working effectively. So my other aim is to look
(02:23):
very closely at where the dollars are being spent, as
I said, across you know, Indigenous affairs, and to identify
where it is being effective, to identify where there needs
to be better accountability, to identify even when perhaps we
(02:43):
need to apply penalties so that you know, things like
fraud doesn't occur or occurs less because that comes with
the whole accountability measure. But empowerment, I believe, you know,
a government less government in people's lives is better than
(03:04):
more government, which is a coalition, which is a value
of those of us from the coalition. So if we
can see that we're investing, where we're producing outcomes, where
we can actually provide an environment for more opportunity toward
economic independence and economic empowerment, then these are absolutely the
(03:30):
sorts of things that I would look to establish more
firmly within Indigenous affairs. And again my priority would be
really identifying and understanding more closely who are more marginalized are,
And that's across the board. You know, I don't deny
(03:54):
that there are marginalized Indigenous people living in our cities,
and they would be part of that priority. But I'm
also acutely aware of the fact that, and because of
research that I've done previously, is that much of our
most marginalized, who sit behind right behind the ape all
are those whose first language is not English, who live
(04:16):
in experience the highest rates of DV in our country.
And I mean my mother was a woman whose first
language is not English. English like a third language to
her and education was for her was her ticket to
freedom in her life, and that to me is an
(04:38):
absolute priority. And I know there's an argument around bilingual education,
particularly for those who aren't English as first language speakers,
but I don't think we should be implementing bilingual if
it is detrimental to kids learning English in order for
them to survive and thrive in a modern Australia. I
(05:01):
think it can work hand in hand, but ultimately the
priority for me is to ensure that kids are getting
their education they need to succeed in life, and I
think our education curriculum needs to be reformed in that regard.
Mind you, that is working hand in hand with my
(05:23):
colleague Sarah Henderson, who you know, if we win government
is likely to be the Education Minister as well. So
you know, it's taking a look at all of those
things and understanding where the successes lie, where we can
continue to invest in, if not bolster, and understanding where
the failures exist and to ensure that we're not repeating
(05:46):
those failures.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Okay, and you mentioned then you use the example of bilingual.
Can cultural heritage still be maintained in economic development? Can
they co exist?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, let's face it, you know, when
it's come to the migrant community, many of the members
of the migrant community, they learn predominantly their culture and
their language at home and they come to school and
share those sorts of things. But they are able to
lead successful lives and that's what I want to see
a curve for Indigenous Australians. But merging, you know, culture
(06:20):
and employment and economic development can absolutely go hand in hand.
You know, I don't see why it shouldn't, and you
know we're seeing that as well. There are many businesses
that incorporate, you know, their culture and the arts sector.
I've had a history of working in the art so
(06:41):
I as a previously worked as assistant curator in our
al alou And Galleries in Alice Springs. I've worked at
the Museum and Art Gallery of the Northern Territory in
Darwin and been responsible for curating exhibitions across the board,
whether it's the Telstra Art Award or whether it's our
Desert mob Art Ward and the Yeah that the visual
(07:01):
arts seen for Indigenous Australians has always been a significant
place for economic empowerment for Indigenous Australians and that's incorporating
culture in that. You know, tourism is a great example
of being able to do that as well. Where that
can be done. Yeah, you know, you don't have to
discount one for the other.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Okay, So it's not sort of we're just going to
change completely abolish the culture, and then we got that's.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
No, no, no, we're not. There's no abolishing of culture.
Culture is important, you know, when it comes to those
living under customer law and remote communities, I firmly believe
in positive cultural reform in order to improve living standards.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay. You talked also about the B and dollar industry
that the money spent, and you said you want if
you got in the power and looking at where that
money spent, scrutinizing and making sure that it's going to
the people that need the money. What just explain how
you would do that and en sure that money spent
(08:05):
on indigenous matters is being channeled in the right direction. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Again, it's identifying where the failures exist and not repeating them,
and identifying where the successes are so they can be
invested in more appropriately in some circumstances. There are some
organizations that are struggling but doing a remarkable job in
providing outcomes. So you know, it's taking a fine tooth
(08:31):
comb to understand that landscape more closely, because why would
we want to continue to invest in something that isn't
working for example? And I guess understanding where something might
be struggling, with appropriate reforms in place, they could then
(08:52):
provide the appropriate outcome that start to produce outcomes as well.
It's looking at it holistically in that regard and governance.
I think governance is a huge area that needs to
be looked at more broadly. Uh. And the way that
some organizations exist under things like the CATSI Act and
(09:15):
whether the cats the Act is providing an environment that
encourages good governance or whether it needs you could so
fit and proper persons is sort of identified as you know,
those who can participate in leadership positions on boards and
that sort of thing. But you know, is that is
(09:38):
that description enough? Do we need to state that? For example,
you know, like I've been calling out recently, those there's
been men who have been have a history of DV
perpetration on sitting as chair people and significant organizations, do
we stipulate more prominently that that shouldn't be allowed, that
(10:03):
people who have had significant violent criminal history should in
fact be exempt from having the opportunity to sit in
leadership positions. Things like that I think are really important
at looking at going forward.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
And that what you're saying there doesn't have to be
race based either in any organization. If someone look, I'm
a big believer in redemption. I believe people need the
second chance. But there's certain things that don't align with
the values of a position of power, and if they've
made those mistakes, well, that's part of the forfeiture.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, But I do feel as though there
is a lowered level of expectations within the Indigenous affairs
space where those sorts of things would not be tolerated
outside of that, but are tolerated within the Indigenous affairs space,
which is why I would seek to lift those standards.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Look through the questions, there's no easy questions with you,
welcome to country, acknowledgment of the country. What's your thoughts
on welcome to country and the acknowledgment of the country.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So okay, when it comes to the recent announcements, in
terms of what we've identified the spend has been in
terms of Welcome to Country in Parliament. I think it's
it's it's well to me growing up in a traditional
cultural setting. It's it's a reinvention. I don't know what
(11:38):
it's supposed to achieve, and I don't believe that in
when it comes to the delivery of tax payers dollars
for outcomes, that's spending half a million dollars a term
actually a bit more than that, because I think the
Office of Defat has spent about one hundred k on
Welcome to Country that that money can be better spent.
(12:02):
And I think in these circumstances it should be used
for significant occasions. If we're going to maintain it, because
now it's something that's established, then it should be used
for much more important events. But I don't know. I
don't I don't think it is necessary. If people feel
(12:22):
strongly about wanting to put that forward, then why take
an income from it. I guess yeah, I mean we
being I just struggle with cultural reinventions if you like
having grown up in a traditional cultural concepts, because in
(12:44):
traditional terms, if you're going into somebody's country, well then
you'd light a fire and you demonstrate that you're on
your way into that person's country to pass through that country.
We're not necessarily living those that life anymore, and we're
part of a country that involves a whole raft of
(13:08):
Australians and so and I think it's important that we
move forward as a country together without separating us along
racial or cultural terms. And I just feel like it's
in many ways it's become a virtue signaling task for
(13:32):
some individuals and become a throwaway thing for others, and become,
you know, for those who want to virtue signal, we
don't really know what their true intentions are. They could
stand before us and acknowledge, but failing behind the scenes,
or are you know, using Aboriginal people behind the scenes
(13:53):
at the same time. And I just don't think in
the grand scheme of things and empowering and moving indigenous
and our most marginalized people forward that it is a priority.
Certainly for me, it isn't a priority for me in
this space. And in many ways, I guess when it
comes to traditional cultural elements, there are elements of that
(14:16):
culture that I've been trying to break free from that
my mother's been trying to break free from that. We
shouldn't have to be beholdened to something because it is
considered culture. There are many things in Western culture that
we say, hey, you know what, I don't want to
be I don't want to be part of that. I
don't want to participate in that or whatever. Freedom of choice.
(14:39):
We live in a Western democracy.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, I just put account of you with the Welcome
to Country, and I take on board the stuff that
you say, and I agree with it in part. I've
watched Welcome the countries or been involved in an acknowledgment
to countries, and sometimes they hit the mark perfectly. Sometimes
i'm by what it's done for me personally. I say, personally,
(15:03):
I can't speak just like you can't speak for all
Aboriginal people, I can't speak for all white fellows. But
it's given me a sense of it's made me aware
of your culture in part. And I take on board
what you're saying. Well, it's not necessarily the traditions that
you understood, but my schooling was we're talking about Captain
(15:24):
Cook discovered this country and can you believe the turned
up and there was no one here, and so that
was the history. I was fed, and then to have
this welcome to country when it's done right, and that
for the right type of event. You can't have a
welcome to country every time you walk past someone on
the street. It did sort of make me just a
(15:46):
little bit aware and reflect on what the history of
this country has been. So I think there was some
education there. So, you know, from my point of view,
I'm happy to see that the right at the right
event significant event. I get a little bit confused when
you have a HR meeting at work and someone doesn't
welcome the country and I'm thinking, what is this about?
(16:08):
So I know that's you coming out and saying that
would polarize the people.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, look, I have no doubt that it polarizes people.
And I also know that there are some Indigenous people
that come to me to say, look, they feel they
cringe when it occurs, and they feel uncomfortable about that.
They don't want to be singled out as the Indigenous
person in the room, like pay my respects to all
Indigenous people in the room. You know, it's like, why,
(16:36):
we're just just a person, We're just people like everybody else.
And then sometimes some welcome to countries say and everybody else.
So well that's everybody anyway, you know. And you know,
and I know some young people who feel a little
bit uncomfortable, like they just want to get on with
just being a student with everybody else, without their racial
(16:57):
identity being a matter of folks in the classroom and
those sorts of things. So you know, there are nuanced
views to this, and that's what we don't hear enough of.
And if you have a different perspective, then you should
be able to have that perspective as well. Look in
terms of our history, my dad was a history teacher,
you know, my mother was an educator as well. She's
(17:20):
a school teacher and history is so important for us
all and as a country. I don't think we have
necessarily done our best in terms of teaching Australians our history,
and we do need to learn the good, the bad,
the ugly in order to understand I think how far
(17:42):
forward we've come together as a country to appreciate that
as well. I don't think we need to look at
it as though, you know, individuals in our history as
are they complete, you know, bastards, and therefore we should
you know, I mean we have to learn from it, Yes,
Hitler was a bastard. But we learn from the horrors
(18:05):
of what occurred there so as not to repeat it.
You know, we don't. We don't hold all Germans accountable
for what occurred. And you know, in the world wars,
So we shouldn't subject our kids these days to guilt
politics in that regard. You know, a little white kid
(18:25):
born in this country shouldn't be shouldn't have to feel
guilty for being a white kid in this country. A
little Aboriginal kid in this country shouldn't have to feel
like they are a victim without agency and are powerless
to be whatever they want to be when they grow
up either in this country. But and you know, history
(18:48):
and the way we we we you know, our education
system is and the way we viewer one another and
accept one another is all a part of that. Absolutely.
You know, we talk about in our country, we had
the last sanction massacre which occurred in nineteen twenty eight
and my grandfather was a young and at the time,
(19:08):
and so he was a survivor of that massacre. And
we know the stories around that that surrounded that, and
you know how it all began and who was involved
in killing our family, and we held a seventy five
year commemorative service for that some years ago now, But
in that we invited the descendants of those who'd killed
(19:32):
our family to that to say, look, we recognize that
there was these were really tough times in our country's
history and it really wasn't that long ago. But we
also don't hold you personally responsible for the actions of
your grandfather. You know, we are together as one as
Australians now together and let's walk this path together. And
(19:54):
that to me was an act of forgiveness that took
place which I don't believe, which I believe we need
more of in order to progress forward as a country.
You know, we we we you know, we have experienced
the apology we have experienced. Sorry, So when do we
as Indigenous Australians say, okay, well we forgive because forgiveness
(20:16):
is also for the forgiver. It is it is about setting.
It can be totally empowering and and it can lead
to yeah that freedom, freedom of of of of individ
individuality if you like. And so there's so much, there's
(20:39):
so much involved in all of that that I think
sometimes we look too simply at the circumstances and luck
I said, yes, let's make sure that our schools are
teaching our children our history, you know, in more broadly,
but not in a way to weaponize it against anybody
(21:00):
or toward anything other than understanding who we are as
a country and how not to repeat the failures of
our past, and to understand just how far we've come
as a remarkable nation, where we've all contributed significantly, whether
weather from the first people's, whether we're from the migrant community,
whether you know my great great grandmother was an Irish
(21:21):
orphan who lost her parents in the Potato famine. She
married my great great great grandfather, who was dispossessed of
his land and brought here in chains as a convict
at the age of fourteen for breaking enter like these
are the human stories. We are all human.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
When you explain it that way, it makes sense. What
concerns me is that sometimes people and I hear people
and yeah, I call that racism because I was in
the cops and I call that racism, and there was
racism in the police. And hopefully it's getting better. I
don't know. I've been out for a while, but I
saw it. But you have people that extreme views. The
(22:00):
reaction from an extreme view on the left becomes an
extreme view on the right, and i'd hear people go, well,
I didn't take your children, or you know, like that
type of commentary where you're saying you've met with the
people from the massacre and you forgave them and there
was some reconciliation in terms of the past history and
(22:20):
moving forward. I see that positive. But it's just when
I say I worry some of the comments or the
comments that you make, or the position and this is
stating the obvious where you've been. It allows people to
jump on board going okay. But she said it's okay
and runs that through and I'm sure that lean very
(22:42):
much on. Yeah. I felt for you with the referendum.
That was a tough time, a tough time in your life.
But it was almost people saying, well, this is an
Aboriginal saying I'm going to say no, oh, therefore it
might be all right. So there was a lot of
pressure on you with.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Look and again, you know, I'm not just Aboriginal. My
dad's a white Feller and half my family white fellow
as well. But we're talking from a Yeah, Walbrian Celtic,
you get that's right. Yeah, and and and look, I've
never said it's okay to be racist. In fact, I'm
(23:20):
dead set against racism, always have been dead set against racism.
And people can take my views, and I don't have
control over how they react to my views, whether whether
they want to you know, suggest racist things on either
side of the debate as well. Like you know, that's
(23:42):
that's not what I'm aiming for. And I'm but I'm
not going to hide. I'm not going to hide evidence
or facts or anything like that. I think it's important
to lay it all on the table. I think it's
important for us to have respectful debate amongst one another
as well, so that we can because generally, look, you know,
when I do engage with you know, those Indigenous Australians
(24:05):
who don't agree with my position on things, or have
this perception of me because of the media or because
of what someone else says, or because they get a
snippet of what I've said without the whole what I've
said behind it all in greater context. When I do
have those engagements, the common thing that we have is
(24:27):
we want the same outcomes. We want the same thing.
We want to improve and better the lives of those
that we love. It's just how we get there that
might be a little bit different. And if we can
be more tolerant in the Indigenous community, you know, people
might feel like they can come forward and speak more
honestly and openly. But I know a lot of Indigenous
(24:49):
Australians who fear retribution. They see what comes at me
and they go, why would I want to put my
head above the parapet But certainly all levels of racism
I disagree with, and I disagree with this notion that
only white people can be racist, Like, as far as
I'm concerned, it's judging another person based on their racial
(25:12):
heritage negatively, that that is racism. And it's on all
sides of the fence. And and you know, when it
came to the Whole Voice debate, I was unpacking what
the whole proposal means or doesn't mean, or you know, uncovering.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
The lack of.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Uh, you know, detail to it and information to it,
and basing my position on the fact that well, despite
this build up of bureaucracy that is supposed to drive
change for Indigenous Australians that has failed, why don't we
fix that instead of plank and entire new bureaucracy on
top of this big mess that already exists. And again
(26:00):
my position is not about and a lot of people say, oh,
you took power away from Indigenous Australians. Well, you couldn't
tell me how this proposal was in fact going to
empower anybody. And why would I want to relegate three
percent of the population to an entity based on racial
heritage when we're all Australian striving for better outcomes for
(26:23):
us all.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Just wind back a little bit on what you said there.
When you have disagreements or with other members of the
indigenous community, but when you sit down they actually talk,
you want the same things, but you're going down to
a different, different path. I found the referendum it was
polarizing for the country. I don't know, and I've said
(26:49):
it here and I'm happy to say it. I vaded. Yes,
I thought it was something that wasn't and that it
changed things dramatically, But it was then acknowledgment of accepting
our past. Probably a very simplistic view, but I found
the discussions about that divided the country even further, which
really saddened me. Yeah, when you look back at it,
(27:11):
are you happy with the way it played out, well, it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Got the result that I was fighting for, so that
I agree with you totally in that it divided our country,
which was the worst possible thing that could have happened
to us as a country and that we did not need.
And it took away focus from actually trying to address
(27:35):
the situation, you know, the circumstances on the ground. It
took a whole lot of resources, It took a whole
lot of attention away from that. And you know, again
going back to things that I say, it suggested that
things that I say gives a whole past to those
who want to say racist things. Well, you know, telling
(27:57):
people that because they wanted to vote no, or you know,
planned to vote know that they are racists is just
as horrible I think, you know, when like as I said,
I believe that and Australians I think, have demonstrated over
and again the incredible goodwill toward Indigenous Australians and want
(28:18):
for better outcomes for us. All Australians want that overwhelmingly.
Many feel a sense of responsibility, but often they can't
do anything because it's actually out of their hands to
do anything. I stand by my position because I didn't
want to empower bureaucracy. I am fighting to empower the
(28:40):
little people. But I truly believe we have the mechanisms
and the structures to do so. We just need to
utilize them a hell of a lot better than what
we actually do when we need to fix those up.
And you know, that's what people need to understand. And
for those you know, Indigenous Australians that don't agree with me,
that potentially hate me for whatever reason you want to
(29:00):
hate me for, you have to understand that this is
my absolute aim, always has been my aim, because of
the death and destruction and the family members that I've
buried over the years. And the reason I'm here is
because of that, is because I want to work to
(29:23):
bring about those changes.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You talk about local solutions and breaking it down, the
local solutions, and you're worried about more bureaucracy coming over
the top. The irony is if you're speaking to people
that are in the polar opposite to you, they're probably
saying saying the same thing about local solutions to it,
but also about representation in parliament. Now you might sit
(29:48):
here and go, well, hey, look here I am, but yeah,
the complexities of it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Just it's so many complexities.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Did it have to be that complicated? Couldn't we have
just said yeah, yes and let's all feel better? Or
did Why did they get.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
So complicated unintended consequences of simply just saying yes because
it felt good, or you know, not understanding the detail
behind it. And we're you know, this is our nation's
constitution we're talking about as well. You know the fact
that I have huge problems with the fact that there
is a level of acceptance of individuals that many of
(30:26):
us know have got horrible histories, you know, criminal histories,
DV histories, sitting in positions of power, the potential to
enable them into our constitution, the ramifications of that I
(30:47):
did not want to risk. I did not want to risk. Ultimately,
you know, there's a there's a there's a there's a
person who's been an elder in Victoria who has recently
been in prison for his conduct which many Aboriginal Australians
knew for years was occurring, and it's only just caught
(31:07):
up with him. How many more of those individuals do
we know are out there? Let's face it, in our
Obiginal communities, we know who these people are who will
either get away with their conduct or it'll take just
as long for that to be brought to justice until
we can clean up our backyard. There's no way that
(31:30):
I could have supported a yes vote.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Okay, I didn't honestly think I was going to sway
sway we talk about. Yeah, if it goes the way,
you hope that you might be re elected. With the
election and the Indigenous Affairs minister, can you see a
way of bringing everyone together? Because when I talk to
(31:56):
you and when I talk to people at the opposite needs,
you both, as we identify it, you're both after the
same thing, it's just a different part.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Well, look, if that's the ultimate focus, I don't see
how we can't work together toward that. You know, I'm
prepared to sit down with anybody and to have those
conversations respectfully, of course, you know, to work out and
work a way forward, because I know that everyone wants
(32:27):
to contribute toward improvement, and if that's the ultimate aim,
then what else would stop an individual from wanting to
work toward that together? But also I also am very
much interested in hearing from those individuals that have been
(32:48):
perhaps ignored or sidelined or have been voiceless because I
guess like in many circumstances, in these situations, there's often
in organizations or whatever, there's a click.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
They can be a.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Click, you know, there's there's little communities within communities, and
whether people are prepared to allow others into those you know,
is up to them obviously, But there have been those
who have been sidelined, and I'm very much interested in
hearing from them as well.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, okay, well I think you can't. You can't offer
up any more than to give people the opportunity to
express their express their views. I wanted to ask some
some fun questions, just to have a bit of fun
because it's so heavy what we're talking about. But just
your downtime, Yes, you had ambitions or you were you
(33:38):
actually lived the life of a rock star at some stage,
your music, you work in TV, tell us a bit
about that. What rocks your boat?
Speaker 2 (33:46):
What rocks my boat? Playing board games with my kids
at home? That totally you know, you know, no, it does,
though my kids will tell you I'm very competitive. You're
not cheating it absolutely not, no, and I'll pull up
anyone who is. But look, no, like music has been
(34:08):
a huge part of my life all my life, as
far back as I can remember, you know, taking to
the stage and singing as part of the primary school choir,
learning violin as a youngster and playing that for several years.
Music's always just resonated with me and my self expression.
And then becoming part of a hip hop group as
(34:30):
a teenager.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
You know, I guess I performed well into my thirties
as well in terms of hip hop, and it was
a great outlet, like it was always got together with
with you know, the well couple of them my cousins,
and they're practically cousins anyway, right, But we wanted to
demonstrate a group of Indigenous kids who were doing something
(34:57):
positive in our community, because they are often headlines out
youth crime and that sort of thing. We're like saying,
look here we are. We're engaged with our community. This
is something we love to do. And we also wanted
to encourage our peers to consider doing something else then
get into trouble, you know, use music as a form
of expression.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I think role models are so good and we hear
a lot of it with sport, but if you could
get in the music in any field that role models
indigenous role models and all that. But yeah, yeah, I've
seen the smile on your face of a clip when you're
up at Tamworth Music Festival. Yes, yes, and I can.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
See on stage and my husband drags me up occasionally.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Okay, what life could have been, But you've managed to
find your way in the politics. Look, we've got to
wrap it up. But I have enjoyed, enjoyed the chat.
There's interesting views on what you've got and explaining things
that I'm the person that sits on the outside trying
to work out what's going on that's complicated the world
that you know you're operating in. I respect people that
(36:00):
passionate about things, and your passion certainly comes across. So
all the all the best for the future, and let's
hope we can make this place a better place.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Absolutely, and thank you for having me. And yeah, I
hope your listeners can have a little bit more of
an understanding of the human I am. But yeah, my my,
my door is always open.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Thank you.
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