January 6, 2025 • 53 mins
As a woman in the police, Veronica Gorrie felt she had to work 10 times harder than her male colleagues to earn her spot in the squad. From ending sieges with cigarettes to using dark humour to cope with horrific events, the award-winning author joins Gary Jubelin to discuss the brutal policing culture, shocking truths of injustice and her biggest regrets.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy a side of life the average persons never
exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Veronica Gory,
an Indigenous woman who joined the police to make a difference,
but found she was fighting an organization embedded with racism
and discrimination. Veronica, welcome back, Thank you. Okay, I'm from
the notes out on this one. Where what are we
going to yarn about? And where's this going to take us?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
So I think, prior to putting the headphones on or
getting being recorded, we're talking about. What were we talking about.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We were talking about cases that don't get the attention
and the media, the media, the lack of interest.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, so when I think I brought it up earlier,
when victims black fellows don't make good victims to police
because they're so used to locking us up. And so
when we do report matters, on the off chance that
we do report matters, and for example, a young Abrish
woman in Western Australia walked into a police station and
(01:39):
wanted to take a domestic violence order out on her partner. Brave,
very brave, because we don't turn to police for help.
But she'd obviously have been subjected to so much that
she had to like the last resort and she died
in custody. They locked her up and she ended up
dying custody, killed in custody. Yeah, so when we have
(02:01):
you just look at the media. They play a big
part in this as well. They don't report matters whereby
abriginal people or the victims, or you don't see mainstream
media about the abriaginal dressing custodies.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You see it on an I t V, SBS or
the A B C. Where you're quite often preaching to
the converted. But I know when I was in the
cops and the lack of interest in that if I
was investigating a murder with an Indigenous person in it
from from the media because it's it doesn't sell papers
or whatever. And I see it now that I'm in
(02:40):
the media. It's hard to get people interested in stories.
And I wonder what that's about. I often think, is
it because well, that's happened to an Indigenous person, It's
not going to happen to us because we're white. What
do you why do you think there's a lack of
interest from the from the media in indigenous matters like that.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I just think they don't give a fuck a about
the traditional owners of the country that they're you know
of this country and the stolen lands that they're now
living on. Don't give a fuck about us. So, you know,
they're still you know, like we've intergenerational trauma. They're still
carrying the the colonizers.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
You know, we're carrying the attitude. You guys are carrying
the trauma. We're carrying the attitude.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Is that what you're saying, Yeah, they don't care about us,
like our lives don't matter. You know, it's just one
less black beatlet to deal with in this country. You know,
there's where's the outrage?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How can that be changed?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I don't I don't have all the answers. I think
with the families, I can say, keep pressing a lot
with the media, keep their stories, keep the you know,
their lives, their lives do matter. Your family members matter,
Your grief matters. And that's the thing with abishinal families.
(04:04):
Almost every Abershall family has been affected by a deaf
and custody and we're having death and custodies all over
this country. And as a community, we grieve for the families,
and we may not have met them, we grieve, we
cry with this family. And then what happens with that
family They bury their loved one, and then the coronial
(04:30):
inquest begins and then the family is subjected to visions
of the very last moments they loved one was a lower,
the last breath they loved one took. And then never
usually successful outcomes, which is what I mentioned before Abershare people,
(04:51):
we never usually have happy endings, which and that's what
I meant by that. And then whilst we go with
that family we're all hearing about it through our networks,
which is like cream MA, NATV, not mainstream media. There'll
be another different custody. So it's like as Aboriginal people
were always grieving and it's every day we're fighting the system,
(05:15):
and the justice system is set up to harm our people,
my people. You know, if they don't kill us, they're
locking us up, putting his way out aside, out of mind,
you know. And you talk about Northern Territory again, you've
got people getting Lemphy sentences up there for unlicensed driving
like fuck may like you know, like if a non
(05:36):
Indigenous person commits what is deemed to be you know,
a serious crime, an indictable offense, whereby it's they've harmed
a person, they're getting less less and like as a
black father, it's like where we've been made examples of.
(05:57):
It's like don't drive unlicensed you're going and you know what,
it's just.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying.
If I play the devil's advocate here and say, well,
you know, if you if you do the crime, you
should do that, do the time.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well here's who's crime is it?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So it's white man's crime.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, so then it's not our crime. Okay, So then
you're breaking it and breaking it down to that. I
know I've had conversations with people saying that when kids
are young kids and your talk Northern Territory and they're
being locked up from an early age, it's virtually their
their direction in life has been stamped by that by
that direction in that they've got such a history, criminal
(06:39):
history by the time they're an adult. If they commit
an offense going inside, what.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Hope do they have as an adult? You know, they
carry that criminal history, white man's criminal history into the adulthood.
What chance of getting a job and housing? And do
they have they have nothing?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Do you see a better way of are going off track?
A better way of dealing with I talk here Indigenous kids.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's a yeah, yeah, stop locking them mart and giving
back to the families. These kids belong at home, not
in cages. There's another thing I wanted to talk about.
When it's gone, no, let's ask the next question. It
might come back.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, maybe I haven't got a question.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Okay, now, oh Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
No, I'm saying that people might say, well, if they're
committing crimes. Yeah, isn't the answer to lock them up?
And I'm saying that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, So as an abolitionist, I'm moving away from the
language of, you know, the justice system and the very
white justice system, and so crimes, white crime, okay, because
you've got to remember policing. The first police in this
country were white convicts. Yeah, so it comes from a
(07:54):
criminal aspect anyway, Well, the white man's criminal aspect. To colonization,
we had no police here. There was no need for police.
We had our own ways of dealing with matters, which
we still do today.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Give us an example of that. It's something that people
have understand.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So, for example, if there's conflict in the family or
in the community, the first people we call is our
family members, and we sort it out that way through communication,
sitting down and having yarns sorting it out. We don't
call cops because the loclihood of cops sort it out
is very minimal. But also cops turn up after the
harm is done. Anyway, what is the point of their presence.
(08:33):
It's already got that the harm's being done, We've already
sorted it out. I want to go back to when
I was a police officer. I went to a again
sorry trigger warning a suicide aberginal family and the way
we grieve. The neighbors called, I just come from the
(08:57):
job with the CVIL side and as we're leaving, another
job come through the radio and it was CO two
or any unit Code two light and sirens. Quite urgent
to attend the same address because there was a there
was an altercation of people being loud and the disturbances
(09:19):
and all this stuff and fighting going on, and I
had to get on the radio and say stand down
because that's their grieving. Even when it's grieving, it's perceived
to be a crime, white.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Crime because it's loud, and.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's the way we grieve. That's the way we grieve.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Okay, yep, Little little things like that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, And like those things weren't taught in the academy.
Another thing that wasn't taught in the academy academy when
I was there was that, And which I know they're
doing right now is they're separating female identifying recruits from
the male identifying recruits, and they're telling the females what
(10:02):
to expect when they're out there. You're going to be
preyed upon by the males.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
As in the male cops.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yes, yes, yep, yes.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Did you experience that? Yes? In what form? And how
did you deal with it?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So I went to a party expecting to have a
good time and I was sexually assaulted and then stalked
afterwards for that very same officer.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And in terms of the sexual assault, did you complain
or what was it?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I knew. I knew from being on the inside and
being a black collar, the complaint wouldn't have went anywhere.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
No one step in, no one.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah. My partner at the time dragged me away because
I feed for my safety that that night. Yeah, she
thought I was going to be gang raped, which is
quite common, which people I know, you kin'd of go
on your air. No, No, I'm group sex, yeah, gang rape.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I'm sitting here and thinking.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I'm bringing it all out. I've got no filters.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
So the whole thing on here on the podcast I
Catch Killers. We want to hear your side of things.
Why I'm looking pensive there, I'm thinking, fuck, if I
got a hint of that, I would knock the person out.
If there was a cop doing that to a female
police officer, I can't believe. I'm shocked that people didn't
(11:36):
stand up or.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, only one person stood up for me, and that
was my partner, and he was trying to convince me
to put in a complaint, but I was too scared.
And then, and that's another thing. When I say I
was complicit, it means I did a lot of the
stuff that other cops did. I caused harm, I arrested people.
I had the highest restaurant in the district, and I
(11:59):
had to do that. I had to work ten times
harder than the white males that were in my squad.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
What was driving you to do that?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I had to prove to them that I was just
a school if not better than them. I owned my
spot in this squad shamingly like shame. You know, I
regret it now, Like if I go back to Queen's
Lane and apologize every person I've ever arrested, or every
person's that was loaded up because they gave him attitude,
you know, cops.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Loaded what and we're talking here?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Oh sorry, here we go, please talk. Sorry. Trying to
move away from but I keep coming back to it.
So loading up if you're deemed to be a smart ass,
and someone like black fellows, who we know are rites,
when when cops pull you over as a black fellow.
When they say, oh, we're just pulled over to do
a random breath test. Random, it's not random. We know
(12:50):
why we're getting pulled over because we're black and we're
different to them. But what were we talking about just before?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You were talking about loading someone up on which.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, so if we're deemed it as young kids, Aboriginal people,
we've been due to twelve Aboriginal legal services. They give out,
you know, little cards. Know you're right. So even as
a ten year old kid, I knew my rights. If
pulled over or intercept it'll stop by police. So we
(13:20):
know our rights. We know what how much information you
were required to give to police, and know more well
you deemed to be a smart ass. And even as
an adult they or a child, they'll load you up,
obstruct police, public nuisance.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, so they load you up.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
With charges and enter and therefore you're entered into the
justice system which is also racist.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And that that that was your experience, and you were
saying that you were part part of it when you're
in there, Yeah, I was complicit in that. How does
that make you feel? There?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Ship very shut, you know, very very short it at that.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But it's so you're talking about like a pretty horrible
culture in the police. And I can sit here and
say I'm a policeman too, and I know there was
good parts and bad parts about the culture of police.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
What parts did you have?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I had? Well, piss ups.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
No, I went through that stage and it nearly killed me.
And I felt like leaving the cops when it was
drinking every afternoon then yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
So like I started in a squad, then yeah, it
was I'm not critical of the people, it was just
the way of the land culture. Yeah. So we work
hard and we drink hard. Son, that's a big slap
on the back. Here, you have another beer.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And if you don't. So every for the listeners and
the viewers, every police station, every squad has their own bar,
the supplies apple, supplies of alcohol. And it would be
normal for me and for other other police that did
ten pm to six am shifts to have a drink
(15:04):
at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the
morning before you went home half a strove home pissed,
you know, I do know, no, Yeah, So, and what
the point is I'm trying to make is that if
you didn't do that, which is what which was part
of the reason why I was forced that I left
(15:27):
Queensound police. Further north you go up to Queensland, by
the way, the more racist that gets. They've never worked
with a nabritural police officer before, and they were like
what the fuck. Yeah, and if you're not involved in
the social bars and the piss up at the end
of the shifts, then you're ostracized. I had a family
(15:48):
to go home too. Yeah, I didn't want to do
that anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Now I understand what you say. And there was a culture,
and I think it's been acknowledged that there was a
drinking culture in police in Queensland. I've been up there
doing jobs up there, and yeah, the bars in the
police station like we didn't have that in New South
Wales or not official bars, the curtains under under the table.
Not not not these days, I've got to say not.
(16:15):
I've been out for four or five years. But not
like it used to be. Like we could do. You
could sit around in detective's office and bring in a
cart and the beer and sit there and happily have
a drink at the end of the day. That's certainly
not not what I experienced prior to leaving the cops,
So I suggest some of it's changed, but it is
(16:36):
a tough environment.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Sorry, I'm smiling because I don't believe you.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But give me something, just tells me.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Right, you've still got mates in a job and you're protecting.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Let me let me say this.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Since I left the police, I'm allowed to associate with
police because i'm this yeah, notorious, notorious criminal.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Yeah, which is which is what I wanted to talk
to you about. They've gone after you. Hey, well they've
gone after you. You're fucked up. You're different to them,
You're freaking you're different breeds, so they'll find something on you,
and they found it.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Look, I don't want to say. I think the fact
that I was charged on a Friday before I met
the Parliamentary Committee on a Monday up at Barrable might
say something. Yeah, maybe it was just a coincidence that
it was urgent to charge me on the Friday before
I speak to the parliament group on the Monday, But
who knows.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Anyway, You're good, You're good. They should put two cops
in here because you're trying to turn this into your podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Oh now do I take over?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Welcome to another episode of The Vices Killersted Veronica Gory.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Here we go in the cops.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
You would have had some fun times in the cops,
some funny incident. We've got that dark humit.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, like the dark humor was I had a
double fatal and sitting in the morgue.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Okay, this is dark. Okay, sorry, I've got real.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Dark hair, and I'm busting the door pay and I'm
working with a first year Connie, and so like, as
an aboriginal person, I believe in ghosts, marches, I call
him and so I've made him stand at the door
with my door opened while on paying. Another time, the
same first year Connie went to the hospital someone had
(18:29):
passed away and I had a and I've walked over
and it's come undone and the hose was just like
a sprinkler, like they're just going around and just like pissed,
flying and flying around, and so I was absolutely saturated.
And someone's piss.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
That's a nice day at work, isn't it. Okay?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
What are you?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
What are you most proud of in the cops? Like
you left, God, you're a hard one I left, but
there was there would have been something good.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Well, you've already told the stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
There's stuff where you've gone to the community and they
could identify with you, and you could you could get
Uncle Harry down off the off the roof and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
So you must have felt like you.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Made some difference. You stay there for ten years, you're
even very stupid, or you were getting something from the job.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Time went really quick, and you think you'll know this
when you're in the job. Time goes really quick, and
before you know it's ten years, twenty years. I had
a lot of good times with my partner, who was
also aboriginal as well. So if you can imagine two
black fellows with deadly sense of humors, well, we just
laughed our way through the shifts and it made the
shifts go quicker. Yeah, so I did have, you know,
(19:43):
a few good times and have good laughs. After leaving
him and then going sounds like I was in a
relationship with him, but it.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Felt like it, right, you can tell us, no, I
wasn't oka. He was happily married, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And yeah, and I used to go out socially with
him and his wife would pick us up, if not
his wife. It was the blue light tax here.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, okay, spoken about that. I don't think people are
going to get shocked of that, especially in the country town.
Or yeah, need a left time.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, so I did have a few good times,
but the bad times outweighed bad times.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
And yeah, so you started fresh faced, going to make
a difference ten years when you walked out, did you
feel like you made any difference? Was there anything that
yeah made it worthwhile?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
No? Okay, my presence in the police did not make
any impact to my community, to anyone. Really, I don't
think anyone learned anything from me. In fact, I was
told by what someone in tactical crime that you hated
Aboriginal people and you hated women. Yeah, women should have
been a job and hence we didn't really have a
(21:01):
good contract.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Where did you take the conversation from that?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Who cares? I hate you too? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Okay, good response.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, like it's just water off for ducks back. But
but then I take it home, you know, like what
going home crying?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah? You know what about the we talk the justice
system that you don't even like the term the justice system,
but I talk courts and how confronting it is for
an Aboriginal person to be put before the courts, because
I've seen it in various forms. It's something that's courts
intimidating for anyone. For Aboriginal people, the way they look
(21:38):
at courts, what what's the feeling there? You would have
seen it terrifying. Yeah, especially like.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I think I wrote in Black and Blue that you know,
these young ones that were running away and leeing, and
you know I was in me and other place, were
in foot pursuits with them, and vehicle pursuits for I
do the same as well, you know, because the safeties
can compromise. You know, if you're looking at a hefty sentence.
(22:07):
You know, if one more you're on parole already you're
on bail and you're you're fucked up, and you know,
if you get quarter gray and you're going to go,
you've been sold. You won't get any bail and you're
going to be sentenced. And as a young person or
an adult, to be separated by your family, especially for
Abrginal people, like in cultural law, banishment is the hoys.
(22:29):
So so we have our own Black Colow justice system.
We don't talk about it too much. We don't want to. Really,
it's got nothing to do with anyone. Like, it's just
we have our own systems in place, and banishment is
the worst form of punishment or retribution. And so when
(22:50):
the white justice system banishes our family member from us
into their custody, yeah, it's like it's your place to
do that, like we do that, you know, And that
the alleged crime, the white crime that they were alleged
to have committed, it's not a crime for us. It's
(23:12):
not a jailable sentence for us. It's not a it's
not a banishment for us.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
It makes it makes it very complex, where what you're
saying there that Okay, this is a group of people
living together, all colors, all races, all backgrounds, and but
the justice system doesn't work work for you guys, and
it's a different way of looking at it.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, it's not good for us.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
How do you think we could manage Well.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think here's the thing I go and I've said
it a few times, but like us, black fallows, we
don't need police and a justicism. Let us do our
own thing. Use follows. You obviously want the police and
the just system, you can have it. You cannot yourselves out,
leave my people alone. Stop surveiling them when they get
(24:04):
out of when they get out of jail and they're
on parole and they've got a report we get as
police officers, they get notified and they're waiting for that
person to fuck up, and then they do, well, you know,
apparently they do and they're back in again. It's got
what chances do they have to you know? And also
(24:26):
prison is not a place for rehabilitation.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Not not in the traditional sense the way prisons are.
That's why we've got such a high recidivism, right, And
that's yeah, I personally think that the big difference that
can be made when the when they're still kids and
if we if we can keep kids out of jail
and divert them somewhere, that is potentially a better, better
(24:50):
fixed because you would say people become institutionalized that yeah,
if they spent time locked up. The first one is
a shock, second one an't able, and third it's not
that bad.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I get fed, Yeah, I'm getting three meals a day
and I don't have to pay around for electricity.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
And just on. And I think it was when you
were in the police, you were doing it tough. Financially,
you weren't in a relationship single mum, you weren't getting
overtime shifts and different things. And there was one and
it was a sweet name and a nice gesture where
you didn't have food for your kids at Christmas time
(25:27):
and you had enough for a meal of mince meat
or whatever it was for dinner, and couldn't even make
a Christmas lunch and someone from the police asked you
to come over and spend Christmas with them. Talk us
through that.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
She was mouldy once, so she was minority as well,
and she invited myself and my kids to come down
to her place for Christmas, and so I did. I
took my kids there and they had the best say,
you know. And the thing is, when I was in policing,
I didn't have too many police mats, so I had
no friends. So I talk about my partner that I
worked with for many years. He wasn't a mate, you know,
(26:02):
like he never had me and my kids at his place.
He came to my own a few times prior to
us going out on a purse. No one, no one,
no one, no one invited me and my kids to
barbecues or stuff like that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Look, I had no friends, but I understand what you're saying.
But it just sadened me that you're you're working as
a police officer and you can't can't afford to feed
the kids.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
They never had Christmas presents.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Now, there was one boss that did the right thing
by when he f that's not up to me.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Which one refresh my memory?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Who wasn't there one that didn't realize how much you
were struggling financially and then got your red.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
He was an inspector.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Okay, yes, I knew i'd find someone that was a
good person.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Come on, yeah he was. He was nice.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, and he did firearms training with the big that's right, Yeah, yeah,
firearms training. And I was standing aside and he just
asked me how I was going, and not one to
show away, I just loose lips here again, told him
my sad story, and then he said I'll fix that up. Yeah,
(27:18):
And he got me moved out of Generals and put
me in a specialized area whereas back on O s.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
A that's an extra allowance that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, and air was that I could manage with the children.
So I don't know, you know, I don't know if
you ever realized, but he was. He was really good,
you know. And then that unit became very toxic as well.
There was a few openly racist people. And then we'll
do it going through I was in that section that
station when they had the Palm Island rights.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Okay, well that was.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, so the racism was quite evident and that they
will quite vocal about it. Actually, you know, it's very
scary to be an agin police at that time.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
How angry that because someone there was a tall man
charge charge with murder and then the police were again
it's something that a lot of police sort of drew drew.
They are angry that the police officer got charge.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And also with Zachary Rolph as.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, you know, the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Same thing. And I just want to bring up too, sorry,
I'm talking about average kids. So I go from one
thing to the other, and I'm going to fidget in
my hand. This is my life as a cop. You said,
what did I get out of it? I learned how
to commit crime, white crime, and get away with it.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I was going to finish off on the fact that
we found that supervisor that was a nice cop. But look,
that's a segue. We'll go into the next part. I
don't know where this is going to take us, because
your second book, When Cops Are Criminals, good title. In
this book edited a number of short stories about people's
experience with corruption, brutality, races, and dealing with the police. Now,
(29:02):
this is a blurb on the book. I'll just read
it out. A powerful indictment of the criminal behavior of
police officers and a call for institutional reform. Edited by
multi award winning author of Black and Blue. That's your Yeah,
you knew that, deo. All right, move along, move along.
When Cops of Criminals examines the widespread problem of police
(29:23):
brutality and corruption from the perspectives of those who understand
it in depth, pulling together the accounts of survivors, campaigners,
and academics, explores different forms of criminal behavior by police,
the factors that contribute to it, the impact it has
on victims, and the challenges of holding perpetrators accountable. Okay,
so that's another heavy book that you've written. I won't
(29:49):
go into it, but I've read it, and that's a
series of examples of people's own experiences, their stories of
different people that have experienced whether it's brutality, racism, or
corruption in dealing with the police. Is there some stories
you can talk from the book or things that you
think is of interest.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah. So firstly, I want to applaud the contributors who
have shared their experiences and want the listeners to know
that I have a lot of pseudonyms. There are a
lot of pseudonyms, and some events have happened. There's one example,
and this person is still terrified to come out and
(30:32):
be publicly publicly named themselves due to you know, like
bubble force to perjure, to commit perjuring in court by detectives,
and their life was in dangerous a result due to
the threats made. So that resonated with.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Me that was a witness to an assault or.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yes, and that that person put a complaint in against
those detectives.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, and they I'll put in Layman's terms about the
witness not to didn't say anything, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
And so this person's lived with that, and you know,
and they've always been an honest person, and you know,
they don't lie, They're very honest, but they were forced
to and that's you know, that's the power that police
have that they can do that to somebody. Another chapter
(31:30):
that resonated with me was Kate Passinis the last chapter
a white form of Copper, And why that resonated with
me was because pretty much much of what Kate was
writing about is what I wrote in Black and Blue,
so it validated to make it validated what I wrote
(31:52):
about in Black and Blue. And so when I, as
a black woman, when a black person shares their experiences,
it's yeah, we read it, Okay, that's to be expected.
But when a white person explained says the same thing
and says that happen, people take notice. And that's for
(32:14):
way again, black fellows aren't good victims.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, because people aren't. The people aren't listening.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
They don't care. All lords don't matter, Black lives don't matter.
I look, and it should I was.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I think when we're talking about the George Floyd and
the marching and the Black Lives Matters marches, and yeah,
because I just out of the cops in controversial circumstances
have been asked by the media, what are you doing here? Like,
what's this about? And I made the point, well, I'm
marching for a personal reason in that I've seen parable
(32:54):
other cases as well where the attention that should have
been given to to the investigations wasn't. And the point
being that black lives do matter, and it should have
been properly resourced, regardless of who the victim is. But
heavy reading. It's heavy reading for a cop, and it
(33:14):
brings shame to all of us at the police. Look
and I've got to say, I'm proud of stuff that
I've done in police, and I don't think I'm the
exception that there's people that I look up to, the
outstanding citizens. But this is about your experience and your
experience that I can't. You're a woman, you're a black woman,
you're in the police, and the experiences. How do you
(33:37):
think we can change the culture to make it a
better place? Like if say one of your children wanted
to join the police, I'm suggesting that mum wouldn't let them,
but or they'd want to. But if someone did, someone
someone decided, What do you think how do you think
(33:58):
the organization could change?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Is the culture?
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Is it capable of changing its culture?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
No, it can't be changed. It's so deeply entrenched. It's systemic. Actually,
they teach you to be racist, they teach you to
pull over Pacific Islander people because they're known to not
have any driver's license. They teach you to pull over
and strip search. To Vietnamese people because they're known to
(34:25):
be drug dealers. That's what they teach you, you know what
I mean. So it's like it's never going to end.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Can it?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Can it?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Individuals make a difference? But can the individuals?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah? So as a community instead of calling police, there
are actually right now there are communities that are experiment
experimenting with this whereby they don't call police and they're
sorting out the issue, sitting down and working out, you know,
and talking about it. You know. And I know I
(34:58):
don't have all the answers.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Because I just challenge you with that. You've been a
police officer long enough to know sometimes you just can't
sort that. Sometimes people have got to be taken out
of play for whatever reason.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, there's some things that can't be you know, there's
crimes against children and yeah, I know where you're going
with that, and crimes against a person serious. Yeah, I
just think there's other ways to deal with it. I
don't think jails are way. I want to, Like a
(35:34):
lot of people that are incarcerated right now, have what
they're suffering from mental health issues and former addictions, and
probably as a result of their mental health issue that
is not getting properly treated prior to being imprisoned and
whilst they're being incarcerated. So you go again, prison is
(35:57):
not a place for a rehabilitation. There's other ways to
deal with it. Yeah, I just don't have all the
answers right now, but I'm working on it. That'll be
the next book.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Okay, what what inspired this book? Your success to your
first book? Multi award winning author. Yeah, that's what I'm
going to call you from there off. You're just going
to have to wear it to take the shame award
winning author we don't like big note. Yeah, that's what
I mean, shame.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
What prompted me to write this?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
So?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I used to follow this account holder on Twitter prior
to becoming ex dB police have over and they were
really brutally honest with the stuff that they were tweeting,
and some of the stuff was triggering, and then I
done follow. Then follow become a pattern behavior, and then
(36:51):
I reached out to him and slid into the d
MS and I didn't know I just said, would you
want to meet up? I would love to have a
and obviously to myself and they they will follow me
as well. And so that person met up with me
and they're one of the contributors in the anthology as well,
and I just let them. We met at a safe
(37:11):
place that was safe for them. And they're a former
wife of a copper, a police officer who had over
seventy five charters against him. Yeah, who was subjected to
a lot of brutality and harm and torture. And you know,
like I like, this person told me the whole story,
(37:32):
but I've only written you know, portion of it, a
portion of it.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
And then I and then I just was this person
was talking. I said, oh, if I did an anthology, yeah,
you prepared to tell your story, and this person said yes.
And then so I just rang up my publishers and said,
I have got no idea for another book, because you
never want to be that one that does it like
one book wonder.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to try and get that
can book out. Yeah, I've written two books christ otherwise
I would have been embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Put on your mate, I've got a third one and
the fourth No, no, I don't have it. I mean
it's in my head and written yet. Yeah, okay, we'll
started the fourth one. But now I've got an idea
for the third one. Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
But they generally start off as an idea, don't they,
And then it's got.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
To yeah, what's your process?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Because well, when when I left the Cops in dramatic
and controversial circumstances, yeah, that's that's what I said. Fucking hell,
I thought I want to set the record straight because
there was a lot of narrative been said and a
lot of things that were being said that weren't true.
(38:46):
So that that inspired the first book, And once I started,
it was cathartic for me too, I felt, Yeah, after that,
it was pretty pretty heavy going for me. This was
a job I loved, I was passionate about, and it
was taken away overnight. So what am I going to do?
The book was good for me, it went well, and
on the back of that, I were and I did
the book with a person that I've worked closely with.
(39:09):
He used to be a crime reporter, Dan Box, so
it worked well together, you know Dan. Yeah, he wrote
Bearable the book too, you know. He and he did
a podcast on it, so he understood where I'm coming from,
and so did did that and then we thought, okay,
(39:29):
what have you got to say next? And I thought, well,
with Badness will tell people what what creates badness? Where
does it evil work? And sort of take a deep,
dark dip into that.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
People like reading about that misery loves company, which we
won't mean you can so well.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Am I company and your misery or vice versa. I'm
very happy, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah. People love reading about well, it takes them away
from their dramas or what's happening in their lives.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Well, I suppose like, yeah, I'm doing this true crime podcast,
and what's what's that about? People are fascinated by crime,
and I get us at time and time again, what
is it about? I think people don't generally, people don't
get to see the side of the world that cops
see and that side of the world, and so I
think they're interested in it, and that's why I think
(40:28):
there's an obsession with it. So yeah, but yeah, I
like storytelling. You say your people like storytelling. I like storytelling,
and I see having a podcast like this is almost
like telling a story or.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
For the root listeners again that you and I both
we know what we can and can't say. We know
how to cover our asses, you know, And yeah, you
know what I mean because I've worked on that side.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Well, yeah, I don't want I don't know you, but
I don't want to go to court again. If I
never set foot in another court for the rest of
my life, I'd be happy because I hated court. I
didn't it was a necessary evil. When I was in
the cops and there's a homicide detective, I spent a
hell of a lot of time in the court, and
then as a defendant, I spent a hell of a
(41:17):
lot of time in the court. And if I never
see another court again, I'll be a happy man. Somehow,
I don't think that's going to work. I suspect I
will be in court again at some stage, but yeah,
it's an intimidating environment. I'm hoping by having you on
the podcast and talking and just having a yarn like
we have, people get an understanding of the issues because
(41:40):
you've brought up some things, and you know, I think
I know my stuff around the world that you live in,
but it's a different perspective. If you'll walk those footsteps
and yeah, I can only imagine how hard it was. Well,
I can't imagine going in the cops being discriminated because
of your race, because of your sex, and a cultural discrimination.
(42:01):
Whether people went the way own it or not, there
would be what's why we got a woman in the cops,
an aboriginal woman like it would have been hard for you.
The fact that you used to turn up for work
an hour before your shift started because you wanted to
show people, look, I'm here, I'm worthwhile. That made me sad.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Well, No, that was a form of rock, a strategy
to get me there because I had so much anxiety.
So and I still do this that to the day.
Like this morning when I flew, I was three hours
before the floor.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
So that's so.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
But that was one of my tactics is to get
there before them. And because if I didn't, I was
ringing up and I had gastrow, you know, and it's
very contagious.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, so you can't come in but that that you
hated going to work that much, so you're you're going
in early just to make sure you get in there.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, and munchholes. Now I was somewhat okay.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
You're injured a few times in the cops as well.
What was the story there? What happened there?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Ohracing people and you know, do me out and yeah,
what what is you talking about.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
To tell us about the chase?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
People love chase? Story about the chase? Did you catch them? Yes,
such a but you injured? Injured in my knee diving
tackle or just grabbing around the collin.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
No, he was hiding in a ben sorry, and the
dog has come out and got him, okay. And that's
the thing, like if anything, like prior to during the place,
I'd done a lot of stupid things, and I was
in foot chases for police, being chased by croppers. So
(43:38):
when I was a cop, I was going where where
would I hide? So that's why I always caught him.
But yeah, I did a lot of shitty things though,
Like I don't like I'm sitting here laughing, but seriously,
it's not funny.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, Look, I don't think you should look back and
be too hard on yourself. It's a culture and it takes. Yeah,
it's so hard to stand up to a culture of
an organization like the police. It's powerful. It's to push back,
and I feel sorry for some people that come unstuck
in the police that yeah, they didn't have the strength
(44:12):
to stand up.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, and I just want to I'm not sorry another
a trigger war, but this is how much our lives
don't matter. And what I want people to get out
of Black and Blue, for example, is that if cops
can treat one of their own, not that, how the
fuck dore they treat my people out in the community
where you can only imagine, Right, But when I wasn't
(44:34):
a job, a young Aboriginal copper who just come out
of the academy committed suicide, nothing, no one heard about that,
there's no media about that. And when a white copper
committed suicide at the police station, headline headlines, front page.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Is that you put that down to what we talked
about before, that people don't care.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Lives don't matter, even in uniform. Yeah, their lives don't matter.
And like we know, we know that police and other
cast rel agents and government officials, government companies and you know,
welfare and all that partner human services, they have a
quota to meet. They've got to they have to employ
diverse people, people from minority groups, Aberta and torrestraight on
(45:25):
the people. So we know we're just a number to them.
But once we're not looked after and they don't give
a shit if we leave.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I think, yeah, I'd like to find the solutions, solutions
to problems. I think it would be beneficial if you
could have more minority groups in there, being Aboriginal, Fustraight
Islanders in the police. It has to be very official.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Police should be representing the community that they're policing in,
and the community is not just white men. But I wouldn't.
I don't want to fix policing. It's never going to
be fixed. In my opinion. It's never going to get better.
No amount of training it's going to make it better.
They're still going to target my people.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I find that I'm not disagreeing. I just find it
sad that.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
I understand everyone has different views and opinions, and that's
my one. There's no fixing it. Okay, there's no such
thing as a good curb. I mean, you know that's
I thought I was a good curb. I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
I will see I.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Again and the good parties that we can have different views.
I saw, I saw a lot of good cops, good cops,
and they're still in there now. They're smarter ones and
more ethical and everything else.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
And well, I think I'm going to quote my oldest
daughter here, who moderated my book Clatch, and we did
a panel with the contributors and the contributors, and my
daughter said, probably the good cops was the one the
lazy ones that did all because they weren't incriminating people
and putting them, entering people into the justice system.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
We talked off off Mike about lazy cops. That's my
bane of existence. When I was in the cops, they
used to give me the ships that they get paid
and people would say that they work hard. I saw
some people that just didn't work.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But I saw a lot of coppers, like sergeants and
that when we're doing night shift, camping out behind it asking,
he's sleeping back, sleeping, fucking and we're like tip tiling
around him.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
It was his Coby house, he was training, his caby house.
Let him, let him, let him sleep.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
And then when I was a recruit, and I've written
about it in Black and Blue, I worked with one
of the old boys who refused to let anyone drive
and he slept. He slept during the shift and we
parked on the highway under the bridge and he's in
a driver suit. So he went back and he had
a snooze for a couple of hours, and I was
just sitting in the passenger seat, just looking around to
(47:52):
change all the stolen cars can pass.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Yeah. Look, I'm probably not starlin.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
I'm just all the it's not stealing anyway, it's borring.
And that's another look.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Okay, all right, no you go.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I'm given up. Okay, no, I I know what you're
saying with the police, and you need the police. That's
my my position. You need the police, Okay, don't know. Okay,
we need it, but I think we've gotta we've gotta
stay try and stay postic.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Well I or do you need them?
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Well, I don't need them, now.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Need them?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
I know I do. Cool police, Okay, this is this
is my view again, what do you want?
Speaker 3 (48:43):
This is my This is cool police.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Really, I would be hard pressed they probably hang up
if I did. This is what I think policing should be.
So I'll run this past. We're going to try and
try and bring some value to it or some something
that policing should be. I think police should represent the community.
So if the community you know where we try to
(49:06):
increase the arrest rates or you've got the charts that
you're trying to meet and all this. What should the
police should be judged on? Is the community happy with
the service they provide. I think that should be the simplest,
simplest thing to put across. So you've got a community
you don't want police, but let's just say in the
world there's police. If you're living in the community and
(49:29):
the community are happy with the way the police are
policing the community, do you think then the police have
done their job.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I'm never going to agree. Sorry, it doesn't matter. You
can put but you could fucking sprinkle you call one
hundreds of thousand, you call.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
It fairy bread.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I like fairy bread, so sprinkles much. But I ain't
going to change my opinion on it because I just
know the harm that it does to my people. Okay,
all right, not just my people, but people who are minority, black, black,
and brown people, people from the LGBTQ plus community, you know,
(50:11):
trans people, you know, traded with so much disrespect, you
know what I mean? And I still can't agree. Sorry,
I can't.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Can we can we edit? Can we edit that?
Speaker 1 (50:24):
We smart. No, I'm jaking.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
I'm jaking.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
No, I want you, I can't.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
I just see so much harm. And the contributors like
their experiences. And since I've written when Cops Are Criminals,
have had multiple, many, many emails, you know, people want
to tell me their experiences and you know, and I
want to call everyone back and email them back, but
I've just been really busy at the minute, you know,
(50:52):
And I feel like this should be edition one, you know,
like we could go on for days, and like almost
every week it's in the papers something that you know,
And yeah, mainstream media will always say wilst off duty
and off judy copper, who gives a fuck? If there's
no such things off duty? And you know that, right,
(51:13):
no such thing. Yeah, I think if a paramatic or nurse,
there's no such things off If.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
You if you've given the power of being a police officer,
you've got to conduct yourself in the way whether you're
on duty off duty, it doesn't matter you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And also they train you to teach treat people like
it's your family member, how you you would expect your
family members to be treated? Are they killing their their
family members? Sad? All right?
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Well, I'm not going to break you don't try.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, it's not working in again, but I don't have
all the answers.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
But no, And look, the thing that I'm really proud
of what we do on the podcast here. I want
people to form their own view. We've had we've had
had to chat people people here where you come from.
The shout out to your books if you want to
get a more in depth understanding of where you're coming
from and what you're about. But I respect your opinion.
(52:07):
That's You're entitled to your opinion. You've been there, you've
done that, and yeah, so I've seen it all, so
I'm sure you.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Have to sorry bringing it down with me. Mate, were
both on a court.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
I'm just depressed now. They're not going to lock me
up again, are they? I don't want to go the court. Look,
it's been a real pleasure. As I said at the start,
I've wanted to meet you for a very very long
time when I heard about what you what you're doing,
and I've been looking out for the opportunity. So it's
great to meet you and you haven't disappointed, and I've
really enjoyed our chat. Pleasure. Well, Veronica's are feeling certainly
(52:47):
run deep. I couldn't convince it to say anything positive
about her experience in the in the police, but I
think it's important here on I Catch Killers that we
allowed people of platform to have this, and I think
it's interesting to get a view of an Indigenous lady
in the police force and the impact it had on her.
I find her an interesting woman, and I think she's
(53:10):
a courageous woman. She calls things the way she sees it,
and everyone's entitled to an opinion, and Veronica's shared that
opinion with us, so I hope you enjoyed it.
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy a side of life the average persons never
exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:45):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with Veronica Gory,
an Indigenous woman who joined the police to make a difference,
but found she was fighting an organization embedded with racism
and discrimination. Veronica, welcome back, Thank you. Okay, I'm from
the notes out on this one. Where what are we
going to yarn about? And where's this going to take us?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
So I think, prior to putting the headphones on or
getting being recorded, we're talking about. What were we talking about.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
We were talking about cases that don't get the attention
and the media, the media, the lack of interest.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, so when I think I brought it up earlier,
when victims black fellows don't make good victims to police
because they're so used to locking us up. And so
when we do report matters, on the off chance that
we do report matters, and for example, a young Abrish
woman in Western Australia walked into a police station and
(01:39):
wanted to take a domestic violence order out on her partner. Brave,
very brave, because we don't turn to police for help.
But she'd obviously have been subjected to so much that
she had to like the last resort and she died
in custody. They locked her up and she ended up
dying custody, killed in custody. Yeah, so when we have
(02:01):
you just look at the media. They play a big
part in this as well. They don't report matters whereby
abriginal people or the victims, or you don't see mainstream
media about the abriaginal dressing custodies.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You see it on an I t V, SBS or
the A B C. Where you're quite often preaching to
the converted. But I know when I was in the
cops and the lack of interest in that if I
was investigating a murder with an Indigenous person in it
from from the media because it's it doesn't sell papers
or whatever. And I see it now that I'm in
(02:40):
the media. It's hard to get people interested in stories.
And I wonder what that's about. I often think, is
it because well, that's happened to an Indigenous person, It's
not going to happen to us because we're white. What
do you why do you think there's a lack of
interest from the from the media in indigenous matters like that.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I just think they don't give a fuck a about
the traditional owners of the country that they're you know
of this country and the stolen lands that they're now
living on. Don't give a fuck about us. So, you know,
they're still you know, like we've intergenerational trauma. They're still
carrying the the colonizers.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
You know, we're carrying the attitude. You guys are carrying
the trauma. We're carrying the attitude.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Is that what you're saying, Yeah, they don't care about us,
like our lives don't matter. You know, it's just one
less black beatlet to deal with in this country. You know,
there's where's the outrage?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How can that be changed?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I don't I don't have all the answers. I think
with the families, I can say, keep pressing a lot
with the media, keep their stories, keep the you know,
their lives, their lives do matter. Your family members matter,
Your grief matters. And that's the thing with abishinal families.
(04:04):
Almost every Abershall family has been affected by a deaf
and custody and we're having death and custodies all over
this country. And as a community, we grieve for the families,
and we may not have met them, we grieve, we
cry with this family. And then what happens with that
family They bury their loved one, and then the coronial
(04:30):
inquest begins and then the family is subjected to visions
of the very last moments they loved one was a lower,
the last breath they loved one took. And then never
usually successful outcomes, which is what I mentioned before Abershare people,
(04:51):
we never usually have happy endings, which and that's what
I meant by that. And then whilst we go with
that family we're all hearing about it through our networks,
which is like cream MA, NATV, not mainstream media. There'll
be another different custody. So it's like as Aboriginal people
were always grieving and it's every day we're fighting the system,
(05:15):
and the justice system is set up to harm our people,
my people. You know, if they don't kill us, they're
locking us up, putting his way out aside, out of mind,
you know. And you talk about Northern Territory again, you've
got people getting Lemphy sentences up there for unlicensed driving
like fuck may like you know, like if a non
(05:36):
Indigenous person commits what is deemed to be you know,
a serious crime, an indictable offense, whereby it's they've harmed
a person, they're getting less less and like as a
black father, it's like where we've been made examples of.
(05:57):
It's like don't drive unlicensed you're going and you know what,
it's just.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying.
If I play the devil's advocate here and say, well,
you know, if you if you do the crime, you
should do that, do the time.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well here's who's crime is it?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So it's white man's crime.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, so then it's not our crime. Okay, So then
you're breaking it and breaking it down to that. I
know I've had conversations with people saying that when kids
are young kids and your talk Northern Territory and they're
being locked up from an early age, it's virtually their
their direction in life has been stamped by that by
that direction in that they've got such a history, criminal
(06:39):
history by the time they're an adult. If they commit
an offense going inside, what.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Hope do they have as an adult? You know, they
carry that criminal history, white man's criminal history into the adulthood.
What chance of getting a job and housing? And do
they have they have nothing?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Do you see a better way of are going off track?
A better way of dealing with I talk here Indigenous kids.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's a yeah, yeah, stop locking them mart and giving
back to the families. These kids belong at home, not
in cages. There's another thing I wanted to talk about.
When it's gone, no, let's ask the next question. It
might come back.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, maybe I haven't got a question.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Okay, now, oh Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
No, I'm saying that people might say, well, if they're
committing crimes. Yeah, isn't the answer to lock them up?
And I'm saying that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, So as an abolitionist, I'm moving away from the
language of, you know, the justice system and the very
white justice system, and so crimes, white crime, okay, because
you've got to remember policing. The first police in this
country were white convicts. Yeah, so it comes from a
(07:54):
criminal aspect anyway, Well, the white man's criminal aspect. To colonization,
we had no police here. There was no need for police.
We had our own ways of dealing with matters, which
we still do today.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Give us an example of that. It's something that people
have understand.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So, for example, if there's conflict in the family or
in the community, the first people we call is our
family members, and we sort it out that way through communication,
sitting down and having yarns sorting it out. We don't
call cops because the loclihood of cops sort it out
is very minimal. But also cops turn up after the
harm is done. Anyway, what is the point of their presence.
(08:33):
It's already got that the harm's being done, We've already
sorted it out. I want to go back to when
I was a police officer. I went to a again
sorry trigger warning a suicide aberginal family and the way
we grieve. The neighbors called, I just come from the
(08:57):
job with the CVIL side and as we're leaving, another
job come through the radio and it was CO two
or any unit Code two light and sirens. Quite urgent
to attend the same address because there was a there
was an altercation of people being loud and the disturbances
(09:19):
and all this stuff and fighting going on, and I
had to get on the radio and say stand down
because that's their grieving. Even when it's grieving, it's perceived
to be a crime, white.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Crime because it's loud, and.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's the way we grieve. That's the way we grieve.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Okay, yep, Little little things like that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, And like those things weren't taught in the academy.
Another thing that wasn't taught in the academy academy when
I was there was that, And which I know they're
doing right now is they're separating female identifying recruits from
the male identifying recruits, and they're telling the females what
(10:02):
to expect when they're out there. You're going to be
preyed upon by the males.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
As in the male cops.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yes, yes, yep, yes.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Did you experience that? Yes? In what form? And how
did you deal with it?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So I went to a party expecting to have a
good time and I was sexually assaulted and then stalked
afterwards for that very same officer.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And in terms of the sexual assault, did you complain
or what was it?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I knew. I knew from being on the inside and
being a black collar, the complaint wouldn't have went anywhere.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
No one step in, no one.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah. My partner at the time dragged me away because
I feed for my safety that that night. Yeah, she
thought I was going to be gang raped, which is
quite common, which people I know, you kin'd of go
on your air. No, No, I'm group sex, yeah, gang rape.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I'm sitting here and thinking.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I'm bringing it all out. I've got no filters.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
So the whole thing on here on the podcast I
Catch Killers. We want to hear your side of things.
Why I'm looking pensive there, I'm thinking, fuck, if I
got a hint of that, I would knock the person out.
If there was a cop doing that to a female
police officer, I can't believe. I'm shocked that people didn't
(11:36):
stand up or.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, only one person stood up for me, and that
was my partner, and he was trying to convince me
to put in a complaint, but I was too scared.
And then, and that's another thing. When I say I
was complicit, it means I did a lot of the
stuff that other cops did. I caused harm, I arrested people.
I had the highest restaurant in the district, and I
(11:59):
had to do that. I had to work ten times
harder than the white males that were in my squad.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
What was driving you to do that?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I had to prove to them that I was just
a school if not better than them. I owned my
spot in this squad shamingly like shame. You know, I
regret it now, Like if I go back to Queen's
Lane and apologize every person I've ever arrested, or every
person's that was loaded up because they gave him attitude,
you know, cops.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Loaded what and we're talking here?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Oh sorry, here we go, please talk. Sorry. Trying to
move away from but I keep coming back to it.
So loading up if you're deemed to be a smart ass,
and someone like black fellows, who we know are rites,
when when cops pull you over as a black fellow.
When they say, oh, we're just pulled over to do
a random breath test. Random, it's not random. We know
(12:50):
why we're getting pulled over because we're black and we're
different to them. But what were we talking about just before?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
You were talking about loading someone up on which.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, so if we're deemed it as young kids, Aboriginal people,
we've been due to twelve Aboriginal legal services. They give out,
you know, little cards. Know you're right. So even as
a ten year old kid, I knew my rights. If
pulled over or intercept it'll stop by police. So we
(13:20):
know our rights. We know what how much information you
were required to give to police, and know more well
you deemed to be a smart ass. And even as
an adult they or a child, they'll load you up,
obstruct police, public nuisance.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, so they load you up.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
With charges and enter and therefore you're entered into the
justice system which is also racist.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And that that that was your experience, and you were
saying that you were part part of it when you're
in there, Yeah, I was complicit in that. How does
that make you feel? There?
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Ship very shut, you know, very very short it at that.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
But it's so you're talking about like a pretty horrible
culture in the police. And I can sit here and
say I'm a policeman too, and I know there was
good parts and bad parts about the culture of police.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
What parts did you have?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I had? Well, piss ups.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
No, I went through that stage and it nearly killed me.
And I felt like leaving the cops when it was
drinking every afternoon then yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
So like I started in a squad, then yeah, it
was I'm not critical of the people, it was just
the way of the land culture. Yeah. So we work
hard and we drink hard. Son, that's a big slap
on the back. Here, you have another beer.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And if you don't. So every for the listeners and
the viewers, every police station, every squad has their own bar,
the supplies apple, supplies of alcohol. And it would be
normal for me and for other other police that did
ten pm to six am shifts to have a drink
(15:04):
at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the
morning before you went home half a strove home pissed,
you know, I do know, no, Yeah, So, and what
the point is I'm trying to make is that if
you didn't do that, which is what which was part
of the reason why I was forced that I left
(15:27):
Queensound police. Further north you go up to Queensland, by
the way, the more racist that gets. They've never worked
with a nabritural police officer before, and they were like
what the fuck. Yeah, and if you're not involved in
the social bars and the piss up at the end
of the shifts, then you're ostracized. I had a family
(15:48):
to go home too. Yeah, I didn't want to do
that anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Now I understand what you say. And there was a culture,
and I think it's been acknowledged that there was a
drinking culture in police in Queensland. I've been up there
doing jobs up there, and yeah, the bars in the
police station like we didn't have that in New South
Wales or not official bars, the curtains under under the table.
Not not not these days, I've got to say not.
(16:15):
I've been out for four or five years. But not
like it used to be. Like we could do. You
could sit around in detective's office and bring in a
cart and the beer and sit there and happily have
a drink at the end of the day. That's certainly
not not what I experienced prior to leaving the cops,
So I suggest some of it's changed, but it is
(16:36):
a tough environment.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Sorry, I'm smiling because I don't believe you.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
But give me something, just tells me.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Right, you've still got mates in a job and you're protecting.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Let me let me say this.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Since I left the police, I'm allowed to associate with
police because i'm this yeah, notorious, notorious criminal.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Yeah, which is which is what I wanted to talk
to you about. They've gone after you. Hey, well they've
gone after you. You're fucked up. You're different to them,
You're freaking you're different breeds, so they'll find something on you,
and they found it.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Look, I don't want to say. I think the fact
that I was charged on a Friday before I met
the Parliamentary Committee on a Monday up at Barrable might
say something. Yeah, maybe it was just a coincidence that
it was urgent to charge me on the Friday before
I speak to the parliament group on the Monday, But
who knows.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Anyway, You're good, You're good. They should put two cops
in here because you're trying to turn this into your podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Oh now do I take over?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Welcome to another episode of The Vices Killersted Veronica Gory.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Here we go in the cops.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
You would have had some fun times in the cops,
some funny incident. We've got that dark humit.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, yeah, like the dark humor was I had a
double fatal and sitting in the morgue.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Okay, this is dark. Okay, sorry, I've got real.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Dark hair, and I'm busting the door pay and I'm
working with a first year Connie, and so like, as
an aboriginal person, I believe in ghosts, marches, I call
him and so I've made him stand at the door
with my door opened while on paying. Another time, the
same first year Connie went to the hospital someone had
(18:29):
passed away and I had a and I've walked over
and it's come undone and the hose was just like
a sprinkler, like they're just going around and just like pissed,
flying and flying around, and so I was absolutely saturated.
And someone's piss.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
That's a nice day at work, isn't it. Okay?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
What are you?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
What are you most proud of in the cops? Like
you left, God, you're a hard one I left, but
there was there would have been something good.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Well, you've already told the stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
There's stuff where you've gone to the community and they
could identify with you, and you could you could get
Uncle Harry down off the off the roof and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
So you must have felt like you.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Made some difference. You stay there for ten years, you're
even very stupid, or you were getting something from the job.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Time went really quick, and you think you'll know this
when you're in the job. Time goes really quick, and
before you know it's ten years, twenty years. I had
a lot of good times with my partner, who was
also aboriginal as well. So if you can imagine two
black fellows with deadly sense of humors, well, we just
laughed our way through the shifts and it made the
shifts go quicker. Yeah, so I did have, you know,
(19:43):
a few good times and have good laughs. After leaving
him and then going sounds like I was in a
relationship with him, but it.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Felt like it, right, you can tell us, no, I
wasn't oka. He was happily married, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And yeah, and I used to go out socially with
him and his wife would pick us up, if not
his wife. It was the blue light tax here.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, okay, spoken about that. I don't think people are
going to get shocked of that, especially in the country town.
Or yeah, need a left time.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, so I did have a few good times,
but the bad times outweighed bad times.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
And yeah, so you started fresh faced, going to make
a difference ten years when you walked out, did you
feel like you made any difference? Was there anything that
yeah made it worthwhile?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
No? Okay, my presence in the police did not make
any impact to my community, to anyone. Really, I don't
think anyone learned anything from me. In fact, I was
told by what someone in tactical crime that you hated
Aboriginal people and you hated women. Yeah, women should have
been a job and hence we didn't really have a
(21:01):
good contract.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Where did you take the conversation from that?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Who cares? I hate you too? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Okay, good response.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, like it's just water off for ducks back. But
but then I take it home, you know, like what
going home crying?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah? You know what about the we talk the justice
system that you don't even like the term the justice system,
but I talk courts and how confronting it is for
an Aboriginal person to be put before the courts, because
I've seen it in various forms. It's something that's courts
intimidating for anyone. For Aboriginal people, the way they look
(21:38):
at courts, what what's the feeling there? You would have
seen it terrifying. Yeah, especially like.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I think I wrote in Black and Blue that you know,
these young ones that were running away and leeing, and
you know I was in me and other place, were
in foot pursuits with them, and vehicle pursuits for I
do the same as well, you know, because the safeties
can compromise. You know, if you're looking at a hefty sentence.
(22:07):
You know, if one more you're on parole already you're
on bail and you're you're fucked up, and you know,
if you get quarter gray and you're going to go,
you've been sold. You won't get any bail and you're
going to be sentenced. And as a young person or
an adult, to be separated by your family, especially for
Abrginal people, like in cultural law, banishment is the hoys.
(22:29):
So so we have our own Black Colow justice system.
We don't talk about it too much. We don't want to. Really,
it's got nothing to do with anyone. Like, it's just
we have our own systems in place, and banishment is
the worst form of punishment or retribution. And so when
(22:50):
the white justice system banishes our family member from us
into their custody, yeah, it's like it's your place to
do that, like we do that, you know, And that
the alleged crime, the white crime that they were alleged
to have committed, it's not a crime for us. It's
(23:12):
not a jailable sentence for us. It's not a it's
not a banishment for us.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
It makes it makes it very complex, where what you're
saying there that Okay, this is a group of people
living together, all colors, all races, all backgrounds, and but
the justice system doesn't work work for you guys, and
it's a different way of looking at it.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, it's not good for us.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
How do you think we could manage Well.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think here's the thing I go and I've said
it a few times, but like us, black fallows, we
don't need police and a justicism. Let us do our
own thing. Use follows. You obviously want the police and
the just system, you can have it. You cannot yourselves out,
leave my people alone. Stop surveiling them when they get
(24:04):
out of when they get out of jail and they're
on parole and they've got a report we get as
police officers, they get notified and they're waiting for that
person to fuck up, and then they do, well, you know,
apparently they do and they're back in again. It's got
what chances do they have to you know? And also
(24:26):
prison is not a place for rehabilitation.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Not not in the traditional sense the way prisons are.
That's why we've got such a high recidivism, right, And
that's yeah, I personally think that the big difference that
can be made when the when they're still kids and
if we if we can keep kids out of jail
and divert them somewhere, that is potentially a better, better
(24:50):
fixed because you would say people become institutionalized that yeah,
if they spent time locked up. The first one is
a shock, second one an't able, and third it's not
that bad.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I get fed, Yeah, I'm getting three meals a day
and I don't have to pay around for electricity.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
And just on. And I think it was when you
were in the police, you were doing it tough. Financially,
you weren't in a relationship single mum, you weren't getting
overtime shifts and different things. And there was one and
it was a sweet name and a nice gesture where
you didn't have food for your kids at Christmas time
(25:27):
and you had enough for a meal of mince meat
or whatever it was for dinner, and couldn't even make
a Christmas lunch and someone from the police asked you
to come over and spend Christmas with them. Talk us
through that.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
She was mouldy once, so she was minority as well,
and she invited myself and my kids to come down
to her place for Christmas, and so I did. I
took my kids there and they had the best say,
you know. And the thing is, when I was in policing,
I didn't have too many police mats, so I had
no friends. So I talk about my partner that I
worked with for many years. He wasn't a mate, you know,
(26:02):
like he never had me and my kids at his place.
He came to my own a few times prior to
us going out on a purse. No one, no one,
no one, no one invited me and my kids to
barbecues or stuff like that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Look, I had no friends, but I understand what you're saying.
But it just sadened me that you're you're working as
a police officer and you can't can't afford to feed
the kids.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
They never had Christmas presents.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Now, there was one boss that did the right thing
by when he f that's not up to me.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Which one refresh my memory?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Who wasn't there one that didn't realize how much you
were struggling financially and then got your red.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
He was an inspector.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Okay, yes, I knew i'd find someone that was a
good person.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Come on, yeah he was. He was nice.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, and he did firearms training with the big that's right, Yeah, yeah,
firearms training. And I was standing aside and he just
asked me how I was going, and not one to
show away, I just loose lips here again, told him
my sad story, and then he said I'll fix that up. Yeah,
(27:18):
And he got me moved out of Generals and put
me in a specialized area whereas back on O s.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
A that's an extra allowance that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, and air was that I could manage with the children.
So I don't know, you know, I don't know if
you ever realized, but he was. He was really good,
you know. And then that unit became very toxic as well.
There was a few openly racist people. And then we'll
do it going through I was in that section that
station when they had the Palm Island rights.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Okay, well that was.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, so the racism was quite evident and that they
will quite vocal about it. Actually, you know, it's very
scary to be an agin police at that time.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
How angry that because someone there was a tall man
charge charge with murder and then the police were again
it's something that a lot of police sort of drew drew.
They are angry that the police officer got charge.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And also with Zachary Rolph as.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Well, you know, the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Same thing. And I just want to bring up too, sorry,
I'm talking about average kids. So I go from one
thing to the other, and I'm going to fidget in
my hand. This is my life as a cop. You said,
what did I get out of it? I learned how
to commit crime, white crime, and get away with it.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I was going to finish off on the fact that
we found that supervisor that was a nice cop. But look,
that's a segue. We'll go into the next part. I
don't know where this is going to take us, because
your second book, When Cops Are Criminals, good title. In
this book edited a number of short stories about people's
experience with corruption, brutality, races, and dealing with the police. Now,
(29:02):
this is a blurb on the book. I'll just read
it out. A powerful indictment of the criminal behavior of
police officers and a call for institutional reform. Edited by
multi award winning author of Black and Blue. That's your Yeah,
you knew that, deo. All right, move along, move along.
When Cops of Criminals examines the widespread problem of police
(29:23):
brutality and corruption from the perspectives of those who understand
it in depth, pulling together the accounts of survivors, campaigners,
and academics, explores different forms of criminal behavior by police,
the factors that contribute to it, the impact it has
on victims, and the challenges of holding perpetrators accountable. Okay,
so that's another heavy book that you've written. I won't
(29:49):
go into it, but I've read it, and that's a
series of examples of people's own experiences, their stories of
different people that have experienced whether it's brutality, racism, or
corruption in dealing with the police. Is there some stories
you can talk from the book or things that you
think is of interest.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah. So firstly, I want to applaud the contributors who
have shared their experiences and want the listeners to know
that I have a lot of pseudonyms. There are a
lot of pseudonyms, and some events have happened. There's one example,
and this person is still terrified to come out and
(30:32):
be publicly publicly named themselves due to you know, like
bubble force to perjure, to commit perjuring in court by detectives,
and their life was in dangerous a result due to
the threats made. So that resonated with.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Me that was a witness to an assault or.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yes, and that that person put a complaint in against
those detectives.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, and they I'll put in Layman's terms about the
witness not to didn't say anything, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
And so this person's lived with that, and you know,
and they've always been an honest person, and you know,
they don't lie, They're very honest, but they were forced
to and that's you know, that's the power that police
have that they can do that to somebody. Another chapter
(31:30):
that resonated with me was Kate Passinis the last chapter
a white form of Copper, And why that resonated with
me was because pretty much much of what Kate was
writing about is what I wrote in Black and Blue,
so it validated to make it validated what I wrote
(31:52):
about in Black and Blue. And so when I, as
a black woman, when a black person shares their experiences,
it's yeah, we read it, Okay, that's to be expected.
But when a white person explained says the same thing
and says that happen, people take notice. And that's for
(32:14):
way again, black fellows aren't good victims.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, because people aren't. The people aren't listening.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
They don't care. All lords don't matter, Black lives don't matter.
I look, and it should I was.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I think when we're talking about the George Floyd and
the marching and the Black Lives Matters marches, and yeah,
because I just out of the cops in controversial circumstances
have been asked by the media, what are you doing here? Like,
what's this about? And I made the point, well, I'm
marching for a personal reason in that I've seen parable
(32:54):
other cases as well where the attention that should have
been given to to the investigations wasn't. And the point
being that black lives do matter, and it should have
been properly resourced, regardless of who the victim is. But
heavy reading. It's heavy reading for a cop, and it
(33:14):
brings shame to all of us at the police. Look
and I've got to say, I'm proud of stuff that
I've done in police, and I don't think I'm the
exception that there's people that I look up to, the
outstanding citizens. But this is about your experience and your
experience that I can't. You're a woman, you're a black woman,
you're in the police, and the experiences. How do you
(33:37):
think we can change the culture to make it a
better place? Like if say one of your children wanted
to join the police, I'm suggesting that mum wouldn't let them,
but or they'd want to. But if someone did, someone
someone decided, What do you think how do you think
(33:58):
the organization could change?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Is the culture?
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Is it capable of changing its culture?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
No, it can't be changed. It's so deeply entrenched. It's systemic. Actually,
they teach you to be racist, they teach you to
pull over Pacific Islander people because they're known to not
have any driver's license. They teach you to pull over
and strip search. To Vietnamese people because they're known to
(34:25):
be drug dealers. That's what they teach you, you know what
I mean. So it's like it's never going to end.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Can it?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Can it?
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Individuals make a difference? But can the individuals?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah? So as a community instead of calling police, there
are actually right now there are communities that are experiment
experimenting with this whereby they don't call police and they're
sorting out the issue, sitting down and working out, you know,
and talking about it. You know. And I know I
(34:58):
don't have all the answers.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Because I just challenge you with that. You've been a
police officer long enough to know sometimes you just can't
sort that. Sometimes people have got to be taken out
of play for whatever reason.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, there's some things that can't be you know, there's
crimes against children and yeah, I know where you're going
with that, and crimes against a person serious. Yeah, I
just think there's other ways to deal with it. I
don't think jails are way. I want to, Like a
(35:34):
lot of people that are incarcerated right now, have what
they're suffering from mental health issues and former addictions, and
probably as a result of their mental health issue that
is not getting properly treated prior to being imprisoned and
whilst they're being incarcerated. So you go again, prison is
(35:57):
not a place for a rehabilitation. There's other ways to
deal with it. Yeah, I just don't have all the
answers right now, but I'm working on it. That'll be
the next book.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Okay, what what inspired this book? Your success to your
first book? Multi award winning author. Yeah, that's what I'm
going to call you from there off. You're just going
to have to wear it to take the shame award
winning author we don't like big note. Yeah, that's what
I mean, shame.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
What prompted me to write this?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
So?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I used to follow this account holder on Twitter prior
to becoming ex dB police have over and they were
really brutally honest with the stuff that they were tweeting,
and some of the stuff was triggering, and then I
done follow. Then follow become a pattern behavior, and then
(36:51):
I reached out to him and slid into the d
MS and I didn't know I just said, would you
want to meet up? I would love to have a
and obviously to myself and they they will follow me
as well. And so that person met up with me
and they're one of the contributors in the anthology as well,
and I just let them. We met at a safe
(37:11):
place that was safe for them. And they're a former
wife of a copper, a police officer who had over
seventy five charters against him. Yeah, who was subjected to
a lot of brutality and harm and torture. And you know,
like I like, this person told me the whole story,
(37:32):
but I've only written you know, portion of it, a
portion of it.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
And then I and then I just was this person
was talking. I said, oh, if I did an anthology, yeah,
you prepared to tell your story, and this person said yes.
And then so I just rang up my publishers and said,
I have got no idea for another book, because you
never want to be that one that does it like
one book wonder.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to try and get that
can book out. Yeah, I've written two books christ otherwise
I would have been embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Put on your mate, I've got a third one and
the fourth No, no, I don't have it. I mean
it's in my head and written yet. Yeah, okay, we'll
started the fourth one. But now I've got an idea
for the third one. Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
But they generally start off as an idea, don't they,
And then it's got.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
To yeah, what's your process?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Because well, when when I left the Cops in dramatic
and controversial circumstances, yeah, that's that's what I said. Fucking hell,
I thought I want to set the record straight because
there was a lot of narrative been said and a
lot of things that were being said that weren't true.
(38:46):
So that that inspired the first book, And once I started,
it was cathartic for me too, I felt, Yeah, after that,
it was pretty pretty heavy going for me. This was
a job I loved, I was passionate about, and it
was taken away overnight. So what am I going to do?
The book was good for me, it went well, and
on the back of that, I were and I did
the book with a person that I've worked closely with.
(39:09):
He used to be a crime reporter, Dan Box, so
it worked well together, you know Dan. Yeah, he wrote
Bearable the book too, you know. He and he did
a podcast on it, so he understood where I'm coming from,
and so did did that and then we thought, okay,
(39:29):
what have you got to say next? And I thought, well,
with Badness will tell people what what creates badness? Where
does it evil work? And sort of take a deep,
dark dip into that.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
People like reading about that misery loves company, which we
won't mean you can so well.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Am I company and your misery or vice versa. I'm
very happy, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah. People love reading about well, it takes them away
from their dramas or what's happening in their lives.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Well, I suppose like, yeah, I'm doing this true crime podcast,
and what's what's that about? People are fascinated by crime,
and I get us at time and time again, what
is it about? I think people don't generally, people don't
get to see the side of the world that cops
see and that side of the world, and so I
think they're interested in it, and that's why I think
(40:28):
there's an obsession with it. So yeah, but yeah, I
like storytelling. You say your people like storytelling. I like storytelling,
and I see having a podcast like this is almost
like telling a story or.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
For the root listeners again that you and I both
we know what we can and can't say. We know
how to cover our asses, you know, And yeah, you
know what I mean because I've worked on that side.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Well, yeah, I don't want I don't know you, but
I don't want to go to court again. If I
never set foot in another court for the rest of
my life, I'd be happy because I hated court. I
didn't it was a necessary evil. When I was in
the cops and there's a homicide detective, I spent a
hell of a lot of time in the court, and
then as a defendant, I spent a hell of a
(41:17):
lot of time in the court. And if I never
see another court again, I'll be a happy man. Somehow,
I don't think that's going to work. I suspect I
will be in court again at some stage, but yeah,
it's an intimidating environment. I'm hoping by having you on
the podcast and talking and just having a yarn like
we have, people get an understanding of the issues because
(41:40):
you've brought up some things, and you know, I think
I know my stuff around the world that you live in,
but it's a different perspective. If you'll walk those footsteps
and yeah, I can only imagine how hard it was. Well,
I can't imagine going in the cops being discriminated because
of your race, because of your sex, and a cultural discrimination.
(42:01):
Whether people went the way own it or not, there
would be what's why we got a woman in the cops,
an aboriginal woman like it would have been hard for you.
The fact that you used to turn up for work
an hour before your shift started because you wanted to
show people, look, I'm here, I'm worthwhile. That made me sad.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Well, No, that was a form of rock, a strategy
to get me there because I had so much anxiety.
So and I still do this that to the day.
Like this morning when I flew, I was three hours
before the floor.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
So that's so.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
But that was one of my tactics is to get
there before them. And because if I didn't, I was
ringing up and I had gastrow, you know, and it's
very contagious.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, so you can't come in but that that you
hated going to work that much, so you're you're going
in early just to make sure you get in there.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, and munchholes. Now I was somewhat okay.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
You're injured a few times in the cops as well.
What was the story there? What happened there?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Ohracing people and you know, do me out and yeah,
what what is you talking about.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
To tell us about the chase?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
People love chase? Story about the chase? Did you catch them? Yes,
such a but you injured? Injured in my knee diving
tackle or just grabbing around the collin.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
No, he was hiding in a ben sorry, and the
dog has come out and got him, okay. And that's
the thing, like if anything, like prior to during the place,
I'd done a lot of stupid things, and I was
in foot chases for police, being chased by croppers. So
(43:38):
when I was a cop, I was going where where
would I hide? So that's why I always caught him.
But yeah, I did a lot of shitty things though,
Like I don't like I'm sitting here laughing, but seriously,
it's not funny.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, Look, I don't think you should look back and
be too hard on yourself. It's a culture and it takes. Yeah,
it's so hard to stand up to a culture of
an organization like the police. It's powerful. It's to push back,
and I feel sorry for some people that come unstuck
in the police that yeah, they didn't have the strength
(44:12):
to stand up.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, and I just want to I'm not sorry another
a trigger war, but this is how much our lives
don't matter. And what I want people to get out
of Black and Blue, for example, is that if cops
can treat one of their own, not that, how the
fuck dore they treat my people out in the community
where you can only imagine, Right, But when I wasn't
(44:34):
a job, a young Aboriginal copper who just come out
of the academy committed suicide, nothing, no one heard about that,
there's no media about that. And when a white copper
committed suicide at the police station, headline headlines, front page.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Is that you put that down to what we talked
about before, that people don't care.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Lives don't matter, even in uniform. Yeah, their lives don't matter.
And like we know, we know that police and other
cast rel agents and government officials, government companies and you know,
welfare and all that partner human services, they have a
quota to meet. They've got to they have to employ
diverse people, people from minority groups, Aberta and torrestraight on
(45:25):
the people. So we know we're just a number to them.
But once we're not looked after and they don't give
a shit if we leave.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I think, yeah, I'd like to find the solutions, solutions
to problems. I think it would be beneficial if you
could have more minority groups in there, being Aboriginal, Fustraight
Islanders in the police. It has to be very official.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Police should be representing the community that they're policing in,
and the community is not just white men. But I wouldn't.
I don't want to fix policing. It's never going to
be fixed. In my opinion. It's never going to get better.
No amount of training it's going to make it better.
They're still going to target my people.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I find that I'm not disagreeing. I just find it
sad that.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
I understand everyone has different views and opinions, and that's
my one. There's no fixing it. Okay, there's no such
thing as a good curb. I mean, you know that's
I thought I was a good curb. I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
I will see I.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Again and the good parties that we can have different views.
I saw, I saw a lot of good cops, good cops,
and they're still in there now. They're smarter ones and
more ethical and everything else.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
And well, I think I'm going to quote my oldest
daughter here, who moderated my book Clatch, and we did
a panel with the contributors and the contributors, and my
daughter said, probably the good cops was the one the
lazy ones that did all because they weren't incriminating people
and putting them, entering people into the justice system.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
We talked off off Mike about lazy cops. That's my
bane of existence. When I was in the cops, they
used to give me the ships that they get paid
and people would say that they work hard. I saw
some people that just didn't work.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But I saw a lot of coppers, like sergeants and
that when we're doing night shift, camping out behind it asking,
he's sleeping back, sleeping, fucking and we're like tip tiling
around him.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
It was his Coby house, he was training, his caby house.
Let him, let him, let him sleep.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
And then when I was a recruit, and I've written
about it in Black and Blue, I worked with one
of the old boys who refused to let anyone drive
and he slept. He slept during the shift and we
parked on the highway under the bridge and he's in
a driver suit. So he went back and he had
a snooze for a couple of hours, and I was
just sitting in the passenger seat, just looking around to
(47:52):
change all the stolen cars can pass.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Yeah. Look, I'm probably not starlin.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
I'm just all the it's not stealing anyway, it's borring.
And that's another look.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Okay, all right, no you go.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I'm given up. Okay, no, I I know what you're
saying with the police, and you need the police. That's
my my position. You need the police, Okay, don't know. Okay,
we need it, but I think we've gotta we've gotta
stay try and stay postic.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Well I or do you need them?
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Well, I don't need them, now.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Need them?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
I know I do. Cool police, Okay, this is this
is my view again, what do you want?
Speaker 3 (48:43):
This is my This is cool police.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Really, I would be hard pressed they probably hang up
if I did. This is what I think policing should be.
So I'll run this past. We're going to try and
try and bring some value to it or some something
that policing should be. I think police should represent the community.
So if the community you know where we try to
(49:06):
increase the arrest rates or you've got the charts that
you're trying to meet and all this. What should the
police should be judged on? Is the community happy with
the service they provide. I think that should be the simplest,
simplest thing to put across. So you've got a community
you don't want police, but let's just say in the
world there's police. If you're living in the community and
(49:29):
the community are happy with the way the police are
policing the community, do you think then the police have
done their job.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I'm never going to agree. Sorry, it doesn't matter. You
can put but you could fucking sprinkle you call one
hundreds of thousand, you call.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
It fairy bread.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I like fairy bread, so sprinkles much. But I ain't
going to change my opinion on it because I just
know the harm that it does to my people. Okay,
all right, not just my people, but people who are minority, black, black,
and brown people, people from the LGBTQ plus community, you know,
(50:11):
trans people, you know, traded with so much disrespect, you
know what I mean? And I still can't agree. Sorry,
I can't.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Can we can we edit? Can we edit that?
Speaker 1 (50:24):
We smart. No, I'm jaking.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
I'm jaking.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
No, I want you, I can't.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
I just see so much harm. And the contributors like
their experiences. And since I've written when Cops Are Criminals,
have had multiple, many, many emails, you know, people want
to tell me their experiences and you know, and I
want to call everyone back and email them back, but
I've just been really busy at the minute, you know,
(50:52):
And I feel like this should be edition one, you know,
like we could go on for days, and like almost
every week it's in the papers something that you know,
And yeah, mainstream media will always say wilst off duty
and off judy copper, who gives a fuck? If there's
no such things off duty? And you know that, right,
(51:13):
no such thing. Yeah, I think if a paramatic or nurse,
there's no such things off If.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
You if you've given the power of being a police officer,
you've got to conduct yourself in the way whether you're
on duty off duty, it doesn't matter you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And also they train you to teach treat people like
it's your family member, how you you would expect your
family members to be treated? Are they killing their their
family members? Sad? All right?
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Well, I'm not going to break you don't try.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, it's not working in again, but I don't have
all the answers.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
But no, And look, the thing that I'm really proud
of what we do on the podcast here. I want
people to form their own view. We've had we've had
had to chat people people here where you come from.
The shout out to your books if you want to
get a more in depth understanding of where you're coming
from and what you're about. But I respect your opinion.
(52:07):
That's You're entitled to your opinion. You've been there, you've
done that, and yeah, so I've seen it all, so
I'm sure you.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Have to sorry bringing it down with me. Mate, were
both on a court.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
I'm just depressed now. They're not going to lock me
up again, are they? I don't want to go the court. Look,
it's been a real pleasure. As I said at the start,
I've wanted to meet you for a very very long
time when I heard about what you what you're doing,
and I've been looking out for the opportunity. So it's
great to meet you and you haven't disappointed, and I've
really enjoyed our chat. Pleasure. Well, Veronica's are feeling certainly
(52:47):
run deep. I couldn't convince it to say anything positive
about her experience in the in the police, but I
think it's important here on I Catch Killers that we
allowed people of platform to have this, and I think
it's interesting to get a view of an Indigenous lady
in the police force and the impact it had on her.
I find her an interesting woman, and I think she's
(53:10):
a courageous woman. She calls things the way she sees it,
and everyone's entitled to an opinion, and Veronica's shared that
opinion with us, so I hope you enjoyed it.
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