August 11, 2025 • 55 mins
Adam Smith was in jail when he first met Gary Jubelin. From warning the inmates not to talk to the former detective to the moment that made him change his life forever, the ex bikie joins the podcast to talk about the harsh reality of life behind bars and how he managed to turn his back on a life of crime.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life the average person is
never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
bikey and maximum security in Adam Smith. In part one,
we spoke about his early life, how I met him
in prison, his time as a senior member of an
outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's experiences in gold and supermax prison.
In part two, we speak about how a change of
prisons changed his outlook on life and what he is
(01:08):
doing since he was released from prison last year. Adam Smith.
Welcome back to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
How you doing good?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Good to have you back.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Be mate.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Speaking the other day, I said, what are you doing
with yourself? And you called yourself an artist. Yes, so
that's a that's a big jump from violent prisoner in
so violent that they had to be put in the
supermax in Golden what's the art that you're into? Tell
us about that?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So art? Was it come across?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I guess you could say in the supermax when I
finally got a pen and paper. I love to tell
the story that I learned to the art scribe and
my finger I was in the war, but that's not true.
I used to just sketch a little bit, just a
doodle and that sort of I guess that kind of
created something and then I didn't touch on it. But
when I went to Macquarie, it's some really good artists.
(02:03):
Like when I say really good, I mean really really
really good.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I've been to that the center there in the prison. Yeah,
there are some great pieces of art.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So I spent a lot of time with I guess,
two of the best artists, but not associating around art.
We live together in a pod, you know. Yeah, Now
these two guys in particular, they could have gone through
and entered into the Archer bulb. They actually paved the
way sort of for art programs, I guess, in the
jail system. One of them in particular, who you met,
(02:39):
Bruce Harrison. Things happened in jail, and they're out of
people's control. He was destined to go and do the
last of his sentence teaching an art program. I think
it might have been at Long Bay, but that changed.
But I had the, I guess, fortunate luck of being
able to watch these guys paint every day. I was
(03:00):
convinced to start.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
First of all, I was convinced to try and join
their art class. But I still had so much cork.
My cork ran for over four years, you know. And
when I started drawing, they were decent drawings. When I
look back on them, they're not so decent, but at
the time that yeah. And when I showed when I
showed them, it was like, well, you should start painting.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Did you Did you have a natural aptitude for art?
Did you delve into it before you went to prison?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
When I was younger, like, I was never really good
at it. My brother was very good at.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Doing graffiti, like we set up big boards out in
the backyard at mum and Dad's and little kids, and
it was never any good. But I never had a
thought about being an artist. But I played guitar when
I was younger, and I was pretty pretty good at
it too, and so I was always there was an
artistic I just didn't realize it was.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You hadn't developed it or it hadn't come.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Out, and I still don't know how I do it.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Okay, well we'll talk about that. But we we left
you in part one. You're still in super Max and
now we're talking about your art. But I'm just going
to I can do this. I suppose it's of course,
of course it's a podcast, But have a look at
that drawing that you've done. I spotted it straight away
when I walk in. You bought it in It's Malcolm X.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah likeness an oil painting of malcom X. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, Well that's a good example of your art. So
we'll talk more about that. But I wanted to show people,
and if those that are listening that's showing, it doesn't
really help. But what we've got here is a portrait
that to me, it looked like a photograph of Malcolm X.
We'll talk about that a little bit later, but I just.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Thought i'd show people, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Just before we get in the Macquarie I just want
to rehash, and I think we touched on it, that
super Max has been renovated and there was sixty prisoners
in super Max. Twenty had to get relocated and you
got relocated to Macquarie Correctional Center is up near Dabba.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Macquarie Correctional Center is a new way of handling prisons
and that was the reason that I was in prison
when out past First Cross to have a look at
the way that they're treating prisoners. It's completely different to
what I would call the traditional tell us about tell
us about what you found when you walked into there.
(05:24):
So you've gone from Golden the Yard in Golburen, which
was a pretty volatile place, lots of violence, lots of yeah,
lots of stuff went down there. You got kicked out
of there into Supermax and where you're living in a
cell on your own and very limited communication to be
dropped in Macquarie Center. Talk us through that whole process.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, no worry, Jerry.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So so they just finished booting the MPU, which was
the whole segregation inmates. So that was forty beds that
they had in there. So, like I said, there were
sixty inmates, and so that twenty of us had to
go around the state into segregation. What they basically call it,
they call it rotation. So if you get either segregation
(06:09):
for a certain amount of time or something they call
seventy eight A, which is housing, which means they can't
house you for certain reasons, so you'll go onto a rotation.
So I landed at Macquarie. You only really meant to
stay at a certain location for a certain amount of time.
I don't know how or why, but I ended up staying.
I think I was well, I think I can't remember exactly,
(06:30):
but it was a few months. And I was never
meant to go up. I was never meant to go
out into the main. It wasn't for gang members. It
was meant to be for inmates that wanted to basically
toe the line and develop and rehabilitate, and they put
gang members off the table. Now, my experience with correctional
officers was pretty much all bad. There was a certain
(06:55):
level of I guess respect that I was given by
certain offices in different jails, but there was never ever
a level of being treated with respect, yeah, or given
your dignity mind that. So when I went to mcclarie,
I was obviously it was a big deal. So they
(07:16):
had all the squad and because it's on the same
property as Wellington Jail, which is very much similar to
Goldban or silver Water.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Or something in the traditional sense of a prison, and.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
It's on the same property, so I'm assuming that they
must have had some of the squad from there as
we will come. And at the end of this time,
you can imagine what I've just been through. The first
thing that I asked when I got off the tracks,
so I get a TV? And they said yes, And
I sat down on the end of the bed for
about probably eight hours watching kids shows. I couldn't believe
my eyes, you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Know, just to get some form of stimulation, fl.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Like I was free. That's how I felt, right. I
was still very unsure of my future in jail at
this point.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So how far into sixty sentence that you've served at this.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Stage, maybe about so close to a year, right, So
I still had no I still had no idea what
was happening with my court. I ended up fighting another
three trials after my After my court, they just kept
trying to get me and get me, but I beat
those trials. Brad Peebles, who's who was the governor of
(08:21):
mcclorie at the time. He went above and beyond to
give inmates an opportunity, and I think it probably could
have cost him his career in doing it if it
had gone wrong. It was only ever meant to be
an experiment. I don't know, did you know that?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, I know initially there was. It was bored in
years ago and then then stopped and the Brad peoples
very much promoted it and pushed it. And it's not
this similar to like a Norwegian way of handling prisoners.
Just so our listeners understand what we're talking about here,
(08:56):
your maximum security prisoner, and yeah, max security prisoners are
praying to violence and you keep some tight control on them,
a lot of lockdowns, you spend a lot of time
in your cell super macs, you spend an extremely large
amount of time in your cell, and you're not allowed
to mix with other inmates. So you've gone from that
environment into what they had at Macquarie Correctional Center where
(09:18):
they had dorms with twenty five maximum security prisoners in there.
That's when when I walked into the dorm, I thought
that would be a bloodbath. They're having twenty five of
you all in there, just all locked away, access to
twenty five other other inmates. Yeah, but you tell the
story because I was observing, and how did you feel
(09:41):
when you were given that much, well, basically freedom within
a prison as much as a freedom that you get.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was no certainty of my stay
at Macquarie. I was online, I was told that it
was made very clear to me as soon as I
got there. Spending my time in supermax. This was massively
concerning because their segregation units at Macquarie, the way I
(10:08):
described it at the time, was an F one motel
room compared.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
To what from what you came to from.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So you have your dignity, you have you have you
have room, you have a massive bench that you can
work on, you have toilet, chaw, it's all clean, the
same size as your little yard out the back. And
this is in segregation, and you're treated well when you're
down there as long as you respect, you give me
like so it's reciprocated.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Okay, so this is the segregation section we've been Macquarie
Correctional Center. What you described describing there, Yes, so distinct
from the dorms where the general population got.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
That's exactly right. So obviously Brad Peebles to do what
he did, he had to have a great team. Now
I'm sure that team consisted of a lot more people
than I know of. Yeah, but he had Bywater, who
is a stand up guy who has a reputation too
(11:07):
for being a tough guy throughout his So he I
think he was a boss of a squad. And this
guy is an absolute gentleman. We'll have nothing but respect
for him and the way that he conducts himself as
an officer and the way that he treats inmates, hard
but fair. I'd say he had Brett Lee's and you
(11:31):
obviously met Brett Lee.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So he's a character.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Well he's a character so or.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Just so the viewers can understand, this is the guy
that went on to become the governor at the prison
after Brad Peebles, he had gone on to another project.
He's a psychologist and he runs with that every day. Okay, So,
although there's always a certain amount of humor around whatever's
(11:55):
coming out of his mouth, every word counts.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
That's a fair assessment.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
And he does that for a reason obviously, and there's
only very few people that can pick up on that.
So he's another one that has gone above and beyond
to try and do things for certain inmates. Myself definitely.
So with these guys in your corner, and then you
have the intel side, which is run by a couple
(12:22):
of officers.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So you've got.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Stanger Andrew Stinger, absolute absolute, dead set, stand up guy.
This guy is very very smart, very calculated, but very fair.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
So these guys you can understand, they run the intel,
they can they know what's going on. Yeah, best intel
in Australia and jail is that Macquarie. And then you've
got standing there. Those two work together, but they maintain
the respect of the inmates. I guess that actually matter
to make him the system work.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You give me.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I'm taking on what you've what you're saying here, because
it's unusual for a prisoner to be talking about coreactive services.
Normally it's screws and the Blue and the Green don't
mix traditional prisons. What I saw at Quarry Centa was
that the respects went both ways. Yeah, and it wasn't
sort of false respect. That was the creative services officers
(13:20):
that I saw treated the prisoners with respect and the
prisoners were treating the creative services officers with respect. And
it was different to any jail I had been in,
and the whole vibe felt felt different.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So this, this creates a little bit of an issue
in the jail environment because then you have people that
want to be in this shale, but then they want
to make out like their mister gangster this that, and
they don't want to respect the officers, but they actually do,
but they just make out. So that creates a little
bit of a little bit of an issue. So you've
(13:53):
got to sort of put that aside and just do
your own thing, you know. Like I said, jail politics
are a funny thing. Always need to be able to
make sure that you can walk into a jail yard
somewhere because you might end up there.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, you said to me the other day that when
the prisoners that were talking to me were the ones
that could hold their head up and didn't need to
they weren't worried what other people thought. And I got
to say, there was some hard cases in there in
terms of if I look at I know their reputation,
I had dealings, I know what they've done and who
(14:25):
they are, and they'd stand up in any jail, yeah,
for sure. But in this jail their behavior was changed
and instead of bridging up, they were communicating and talking.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And problem solvers, you know. So there's a fair fuel
of that.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
It would always have to go out to diffuse something
or just say, for instance, the jail started getting a
little bit violent, they'd call a lot of us down
to talk to us and say we need this to change.
So then we would say, well what can you do
for us? Like this is the way that we're working here,
we're working with each other.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So we saw a.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Barter it down, you know, and then we back and
we'd pull the pod in and say, well, this is
what's going to happen because the jarl needs to be
like this for the next few weeks, and there we'd
make it happen.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
You know, how long did it take you to get
moved into a pod?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
So, like I said, I was never really gone, but
they kept coming in saying to me, or if you
want to sign your intel off, we'll let you stay here,
and I just thought it was a ja I thought
it was a stitch up. I thought I'd trying to
set me up to make it harder for me. Anyway,
I ended up doing this. At the time, I was
not leaving any club, and.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That was what we're talking here. You've got to sign
off any affiliation with the club because of gain coup
in Macquarie.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Center, so anyone that comes there has to do that
right now. CIG Central Intelligence Group, So for people like myself,
you're on their radar immediately anyway. So they're the ones
that are responsible for the function functioning of New South Wales.
I'm not sure if it's Asrail or that's New South Wales.
But they said to.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Me, you're a liar.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Why you're there, They said, basically brought people to take
a chance on you. Why you're there, that's fine, But
when you're fuck up your ours and you're gone straight
back to where you come from.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
So I had that in the back of my mind
the whole time, and then they just slowly integrated me
to the pod. They didn't just put me out the
vis let me out at times and integrate with people slowly.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But the way you describe it, Adam, it's like releasing
the line back in.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
The Yeah, and it completely wasn't the case, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, but that's they let you in, they test Okay,
you spent a half an hour in there, there was
no trouble, come back out, okay. So that process how long?
How long did it take.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
That process?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I guess it probably lasted around two to three weeks,
And right up until the point when I walked into
the pod with my trolling, I still didn't believe it.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You know, you didn't believe you'd be released, or didn't
believe in the environment that you'd be.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
No, I didn't believe that. I didn't believe that what
was being said was true. Jail is a place where
you be told many different things from someone that you
will believe that should be telling you what you meant
to hear. But I don't say from an officer or
a person of a certain level. But it's not the case.
You know, it's a very dark and distorted place, and
(17:25):
you're never safe anywhere, like meaning that your position in
any jlity is never Someone can just put that tick
into the computer and you're on a truck. And my
circumstances were I was like, what's it going to take nothing?
It's going to take nothing. And so I had certain
people on my side, but the majority of the officers
(17:47):
and that were like, you're letting this guy hit into
our prison, you know anyway, So then I come out
of the present slowly have a time. I mean, it
took the whole time for a lot of them. I
think maybe they just thought I was full of shit.
I've always been very respectful.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And what do you think that the naysay is going
through their mind? He's just taking the piss out of us.
He'll get in there and when he's got an issue,
he's going to light someone up and yeah, yeah, and
then we'll send him back. So that would have been
and given you history, it's a reasonable for him to
have is just bullshitting to us, and let me in
(18:23):
the dorm and when I do create havoc, it's going
to be a big one. Then you can ship me
back to super Max.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, And I guess you know, I understand why they
think that, because, to be honest, I always said to
myself that and do whatever I can to make sure
that I keep my hands to myself.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But if someone puts their hands on me. Well, that's
different story, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And the problem that there was it was either going
to be nothing or six o'clock New Style, Do.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You get me?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And that's not what I want to do though, and
that's not what anyone wants say. I had, like, I
worked on myself very hard.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
You know what stage was your mindset changing that, Hey,
I want to turn my life around. Was it when
you saw what was on offer at Macquarie Center. Was
that something that changed? What was the thing that.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
So I just want to make something very clear. So
I've just sat here and you give a lot of
officers a good rap, a lot of correctional officers. The
start of this change does not start with an inmate.
And if anyone has the expectations that that's the case,
you're completely wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And I can explain why.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
So we come from a place where your battle is
stay alive. There's Westpac. I only got the spine out
of their daily So then I come to Macquarie, where
there's where you're expected to toe this certain line. Right,
but you're still in the same environment where you're dealing
with the inmates, and.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
You've crossed bathro with these inmates.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You might have gone the water with its inmate at
some stage two and you're both there trying to do
the right thing. Now for an officer to say get
a to you in front of the boys and expect
you just say good a back after you've just got
a truck off a truck, when the only thing coming
at your mouth that officer is get the fuck out
of your dog. Yeah, now they're asking for something different, right,
(20:10):
but as history shows, they've never given us any reason
to give them respect. You show them respect and it
would be used against you. Right now, you turn up
to this place and your question if they're stitching out
because it is not right. Yeah, But over time you
(20:31):
realize that they actually care about their job, They care
about trying to revealiitate you. So they must have chose
a team of officers that were to grow there. And
over time, when you work that out, so you gain
that initial respect from the officer, that will go the
way and over time you'll build a rapport. That doesn't
mean that you go up and you sit down and
you say, oh, how it's dinner last night.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, you're not best mates, but there's respect.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But how are you today? I'm fine, you know, what's
that you're carrying with a piece of artwork? I just
did it here down here, and then you know, like
I had officers by an artwork of me, you know,
And I found my jail to be very easy. And
everyone that works this out and then returns that it's
only minimal respect. It's just common courtesy. How are you today?
(21:15):
I'm well, thanks, how are you? You're not stepping outside
the boundaries, it's going to put you in trouble. Through
jail politics, there's always going to be someone that will say, oh,
this guy was too friendly. Yeah, but it's usually them
trying to cover up something that they've done somewhere, you know,
the old deflectioning trick. Like not many inmates are smart,
you know what I mean, Like, there's not many. And
(21:36):
from that point there, when that's shown in the first place,
then it's given back and that it can grow. But
it can't be expected from an inmate when he's been
given nothing but shipped from this person in blue every
single experience he's had.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I'm hearing what you're saying. And so it's a slow
process where the trust is built up and the respect
is respect is gained, and.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
You've got someone that has has a lifetime of behaviors
that he's trying to change, So that officers also needs
to acknowledge that there is going to be error and
not write that person off of that error, but allow
that person to change. As long as he hasn't across
the lines, that doesn't permit him to stay at that
correctional center.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, look, I've got to say from I was surprised
by the officers that I got to deal with, and
just a cross section of them. They were genuinely invested
in what they were doing. Yeah, yeah, part of it
is self serving. They said, our job is so much
easier here if we go across to Wellington. We're dealing
with all this shit and trouble that happens in a
(22:43):
more traditional jarl, and you come across here and there's
less shit that goes down.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
And there's some standouts, like obviously in every field of everything.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
So I've mentioned a fair few officers, but there's one
that there's too. I want to mention one in particular
that really drove so I implemented an NA program into Macquarie.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Right now, this is pretty big because that's some statement.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
What did that involve.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
So if for the.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Viewers, if they understand how NA works or AA works,
it's the same sort of system. The only problem is
that being in a jail environment, there's not much anonymous
about it because they need to know who you are
and where we are. But we were allowed to conduct ourselves. Now,
at one point I had over ten percent of the
jail in attendance voluntary. All right, that's pretty big numbers
(23:38):
of boys that actually want to try and change get
off the gear, yeap. But Elizabeth says, right, she was
in our corner from day one, right, and the other
officers that I did mention before, and they helped to
drive this thing, and why I was. I'm pretty sure
it's probably folded by now. I hope it hasn't because
it was going to be a massive thing. But Elizabeth Sears,
(24:02):
she really drove it and to a point where they
tried to stop it. But there's been a massive response.
So we've got boys that have been heroin addicts and
full recovery.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Now that's a good changing their lives. Mate.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And you mentioned Liz Sears. I can speak about her.
She sat where you're sitting. She came on as a
guest here, and actually she opened eyes to a lot
of things about what's going on in the prisons and
different ways of doing it. Because I was looking, okay,
well you've done the crime, you do the time, didn't
really think much much about it. A couple of blokes
that have been in have sort of said to me,
(24:38):
will you treat this like animals? We're going to come
out behaving like animals. But what Liz explained what they
were doing at Macquarie, it just sort of blew me away.
It made so much sense.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So I want to make it clear about my positioning
coming on here today. I want people to understand about
people that have committed crimes. Fair Enough, they need to
be punished for their crimes, but if they want to
change their ways, they don't need to drag that round
with the rest for the rest of their lives, right,
weighing them down and forcing them into a corner and
(25:11):
given an option to rehabilitate and grow. Right if the
public knows this and supports this system. Just for example,
I'm not going to mention any names, Robert, but I
was in that jail and quarry with some heavy hitters.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Mate.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I'm talking on these streets of Sydney and they're big hitters. Yeah, yeah,
very very big hitters, and they're doing the same thing.
They're better in their lives. They're getting away from the rubbish.
They want to come out and have a fresh start.
They want the best for their kids, they want the
best for their grandkids. They've been given an opportunity and
they're taking it and they're using it and they need
(25:47):
to be respected for it.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And when they come.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Out into the community and they have a go and
they're trying to do the right thing, they need to
be given them doors. They need to be shown that
they can use what they've done to go and do
better and do more. And these guys are really trying.
So if the public knows that this system is available, Like,
let's not forget that we're based that we're built on
a background of convicts. We're always going to have a
(26:12):
jail system. But if we can rehabilitate inmates, especially ones
that have been through the ropes, they can come back
out and they can be someone to these young people
out here.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
You know, well, I know some of the people that
you're talking about. And in the time I spent there,
I got to speak to them, and yeah, I was
surprised that I was even speaking to them, And yeah,
I'm not naive, but I thought it was genuine in
what they were saying, instead of you leave me in
this other system. I was angry, but I've seen here.
(26:46):
What the fuck? Why have I wasted my life? I
want to turn my life around. Then they to me,
they seem genuine and I'm not naive. That was, of
course I understood. But the other thing the prison does,
and this is my and I've had a couple laughs
because the humor is still there, and a couple of
laughs at my expense.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Of of course, you got to expect that.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Were you one of the people yelling out there, let
that go. But there was a couple of funny, funny
and weird comments. But anyway, as you expect walking through prison.
But they said, in those dorms, living in the dorms,
where you're picturing an area probably I don't know, three
sizes of size of a tennis court for twenty five
(27:29):
twenty five people. There a courtyard out the back where
there's some gym equipment. You get to stay out there
till nine o'clock. If you need to stay out and
some of the inmates are saying, this is the first
time I've been able to see stars for years, because
they can sit out there, lockdowns at nine o'clock when
they have to come in. You're cooking out there, you
train there. The toilets are set up, not for bashings.
(27:52):
It's a single booth thing shower and toilet, and people
are assigned to it. Kitchen that barbecue out the back.
Noweople might say, well, that's too much luxury for it
with the crimes that they've done. Of course, what blew
me away was the fact that if there's twenty five
ore there and one's being a dickhead, instead of the
(28:13):
usual jail justice where he would have been bashed or
shived or or whatever and dealt with, you get a
group sit there and negotiate through and go, look, we
can't put up with this type of behavior. Then you
actually vote them out of the pot if they're causing
too much problems. That's negotiation skills. That's the type of
skills you need for society. Those little things were the
(28:33):
type of things that I took away from it.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So this is a perfect time just
for me to clarify when I told the boys not
to talk to you. Yep, So little did you know
at that time that I actually had plans to come
out here and talk to you, to try and to
push this and I want to eventually try and help
young people that are going into gangs. And but beside
(28:57):
that point, most people in a jail in environment can't
handle themselves. So essentially in that environment where lorified babysitters now.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
As in the people that can handle themselves look after
the people that can't handle themselves.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Now, in another jailed environment, we wouldn't be doing that
so much because there's no benefit for us to do that.
It's only going to make us week to align with
someone this week. In that environment, we're keeping the peace,
were making sure things are working and things are flowing. Now,
these eyes if they had to come in and thought
that it was a good idea to talk to you,
and then they were on a truck tomorrow in the
(29:33):
silver water, and then they got the silver bar and
they said, talking to Gary Jubilin, he'd be walking out
of him. He'd be walking out like a dartboard, you
know what I mean. So that was the reason that
I did that then, so they had nothing to do
with people not talking to you. So the voice that
did talk to you have enough respect and enough weight
within the jail system that they can justify what they did.
(29:55):
They didn't do anything wrong. The discussion that with you
wasn't anything that couldn't be discuss but there was all
there was also aside to it, and the jail benefit
from them speaking to you too.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, I look at it was a difficult thing and
I had no idea what would go on, and that
worried me because corrective services had no idea. When I
said what's going to happen, they said, we have no
fucking idea when you walk in. But yeah, with the
benefit of hindsight, walking in the pod was probably unannounced.
And that's why I think, then may it be known
what I was doing there and speaking to the people
(30:28):
and what you've said too. I was conscious of that
because I know I'm going in, but I get to
get to leave and some of the some of the
blokes that were naive and talking to me, I'm thinking,
this is not a good look. The heaviest, the people
that I would identify as the ones that can hold
their own felt more than comfortable talking talking to them
(30:49):
because I knew it's not going to come back on them.
There was a few people, so I understand what you're saying.
And even that incident we're talking about where you were
telling them not to pull back, and it was fairly
obvious that I wasn't well liked in there, but I
was worried about a couple of people that were thinking
what the fuck is going to happen after I walk out?
We're talking, So I respect it and my mistake there,
(31:11):
that's that's your home, and I've just walked in there,
walking around in the at the gym and the oval whatever,
that wasn't as bad, but that was walking walking in
your home. So didn't make that mistake again.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
No, but I think I think it was a good
thing that you did.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I mean, obviously say you've had both sides, yeah, I
mean I remember hearing one of the boys real about
you so saying that you're a copper. But now you've
been charged and you want to jump on our side
now and you want to do this right?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Now, we're human beings. We adapt. Why do you think
that we can go into a yard like the yard at.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Golden and survive. Yeah, why do you think our grandfathers
went to war and slept in trenches for the blood.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
We're humans.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
We adapt to every situation. You had to do with that,
So you were that, but you're doing good with what
you took from that. So back in position, I don't
think you had the opportunity to see outside because you're
a police officer.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Well that's and yeah, I own this. And my thing
was I used to lock people up, get given another case,
and then follow that case, and then I wasn't thinking
what happened behind the behind the yard, behind the gates.
But no, I think it was an interesting, interesting experience.
And I also went into Wellington and the attitude was
(32:26):
there was completely different. When I'm walking around there. Well,
still the comments, but a little bit more intense when
I was in there.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
But yeah, so you can understand why though, Oh it's
a different.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
So so those boys, those boys have to make comments,
you get me, they see you walk past, they're in
a yard, they're in a stand up yard. They have
to go a coup of dog, keep walking, Yeah, because
if they don't, it's I don't turn around and go
what are your fucking copper? And then the rest of
the boys hear it and we're talking about some weak minds.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, I know that it could set off.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It'll swell until it happens.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, well, I wasn't sure how long did it go
on because I know there was a bit of turmoil
when I first came into Macquarie and yeah, I don't
want to cause the dramas here, but yeah, it worked
out and I think it was worthwhile for everyone. And
I got it, got a got a message out. But
it opened my eyes, it really did. And another thing
(33:26):
because I'm thinking, have I had the warl pool out
of my eyes after spending time with you guys for
so long? But I spoke to a person who'd lost
his son in a murder and he made he made
the point Ken Marslow, it was a bad, bad, one
armed robbery where his nine year old son was shopped
during robbery a pizza hut and no need for it.
(33:49):
But I said that, Ken, Ken, am I missing the
point here? Have I gone soft? Like I'm thinking what
they're doing here in this prison is definitely worthwhile? And
he said it's about getting smart on crime, Like these
people are going to go out, do we want them skills?
To go out. So if they go out and don't
commit further crime, there's less victims. So no, you're not
(34:09):
going soften. Yeah, that was from a victim's point of
view that I wanted to get. So I've been championing
what they're doing in there wherever I can, and I'm
not naive, And even you guys, the inmates in there,
would say this isn't going to work for everyone, Like
there's that ten percent that you're not going to change.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
That holds relevance to everyone. Yeah, right, And it depends
where everyone's at in their time. Some people, there's some
prisoners that can't adapt, they can't change. Yeah, right, jail's easy.
Like if you get like, people might spin out when
I say that. But for me, even in a jail
where anything can happen, that's that's your only Can you
(34:48):
focus on that all day all night and it might
get more volatile and more twisted up and everything, but
that's what you're doing. Get up in the morning, get
in the yard for so many and you come back
in that's it quarry for me, Like, it was great
because I got up and I got the able and
do things. I was painting at a mad job, and
I found that great. And then you come out into
the real world and it's real.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Well, one of the prisoners in there said, I was
talking to him, and he's gone when I go home
at night, and I'm thinking that, But that's how he
was looking at the pot that's going home. But they
had you studying for six hours a day, working for
six hours a day, and given some freedoms. Yeah, and
what difference did that make to you from going from
(35:32):
the traditional tough yard in Goulburn too into an environment
like that. How did that change?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Listen?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
I was already wanting to change anyway, you know, like
I was wanting to I was paying it all up
and everything that I've lost, you know, Like I mean
I had, like I had a beautiful little family and
that and even though like I've still got my kids
and like I love them to death, they love me too.
And there's this massive time frame that I missed out
on photos and at hung I can just stare at
(36:02):
because I can remember that time. Like my daughter, My
daughter's a little machine, you know, And I just look
at this fight and sometimes it can just make me crumble,
you know, because I can remember that, and I can
remember how much I loved it, and it just hurts
me to think that, you know, that I went that
way still with that, So that's sort of what hurts
me the most. But as far as that point when
(36:23):
it comes time to change, mate, when I was hitting
super Max and and after having that little dream that
I told you about there and I just thought, what
am I doing?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Though?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
What am I going to do? Am I gonna? Am
I going to go back out into a yard? And
am I gonna? And this is what I do. I
elevate myself to whatever it has to happen, you know,
And sometimes I fake it to make it, but I
get there and I don't even know what I'm capable
of until until.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
It goes there. But I have that ability to adapt. Now.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I knew that if I went back out into that yard,
I was going to have to elevate more, or if
I wanted to go and take the same traction no
matter where I ended up, And I knew what that
meant for me, and that was to guarantee the one
of the two things that was going to happen to
me before I went to jail. So that was time
to change, you know. But to change, I had to
(37:15):
heal too, and that's where this art come into it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Okay, so with the art, and we spoke earlier on
about it, but that's given you something to channel your energy. Yeah,
Like I'm a big believery ying and Yang. You've got
the hard side, You've got the soft side is this
You're channeling the soft energy into India paintings.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Like with this is like, I have trouble expressing my emotions.
So and I'm either here or I'm there, and like
and depending on the emotions depends on the way that
I'm going to hold myself. Right if a tear comes
to my eyes as a dangerous situation because I feel
(37:58):
like someone will said that tear and and think I'm weak,
So I'll elevate to a situation where it'll probably take
someone special to stand there, you know. And I hate
that and I hate that person and it made me sick.
You know, I didn't like that person. I knew I
didn't like that person, and I thought, who, how can
anyone love me or like me if I don't like
(38:19):
this person? And that's where this come into it. So
I got to express my emotions with having to let
it out. I just grab a paint brush as I
start slapping around. The only thing I did do was
I helped myself back. Was I was too neat when
I was learning. If I really wanted to let my
emotions go, I should have just frown that brush around,
you know, Like I know like I'm doing now, And
it's the best way to deliver a message that you
(38:42):
want to get out or to relieve yourself or something.
And color can do Color can do this. So color
has an association in our brain that allows us to
either feel a certain way when we see a color
or react a certain way. And I've really embraced it.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I can see how you're talking now, the comness that
comes across with you. You're talking talking about your art.
So is that striving to make a living from your art?
Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I would love to make a living from my art.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So, like I told you that, I've been studying and everything,
and I would love to get into juvenile corrections.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Okay, tell us that we've had a chat, but it
wasn't on Mike, tell us about what you're studying and
what you're doing there.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Okay, So funny story. Me and an old enemy from
a different gang. We did a search for a youth
work together at the.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Jail, right, okay, so they.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Used to hear it. Well, they used to use me
every time a new gangman would come.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
They come, they get me to go down and talk
to them to try and explain the why the jail
is anyway, So the day I had to go down
and speak with this lad, we end up becoming so close.
It's like and I got a lot of love for him,
you know. But back on the streets and Mount Drew,
it thinks she used to be very dif print, you know. Anyways,
(40:03):
we need to search for a youth work together through correspondence,
and it was something that was I guess they had
to get the bricks and mortar out to make it happen. Yeah, yeah,
that makes.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Sense, Yeah, to let you you guys do that.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
And so then there was a big outcry over in
the jail about people everyone want to do.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
To do it as well, but they weren't allowed to.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
And it was like, well, well you've got to be
a gang member or you know, they're not meant to
be here.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
That's you get me, right.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
So there was this is politics of a different, different
level in the well.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I guess this is where politics collide.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Okay, so they're giving you guys because you've been so
bad and your gang members and you shouldn't be in here,
but you're allowed to do it. Why aren't we allowed
to do it?
Speaker 3 (40:47):
But they had a reason for it, Yeah, and they
and it was paving the way for them in a
jailed environment. Fast thinking people don't get to absorb this
information and sort of try and take a back to
have a.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Look at the big picture.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah, but it had to be done first, trying to
get something over the line to give inmates. It's a
dead end. Yeah, So it's a hard slog.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
And why do you say that it's a dead end.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Or well, you're talking about saying an inmate that's got
in charge for a double murder. Yeah, right, and now
he's asking for funding, not just any funding, he's asking
for ten or twenty grand. Why he's the inmate to
study so one on the clock back no way in
the world.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Well that's the public. When I say the public, there's
a view of public view that why are we rewarding
people for going to prison? And that's the type of
pushback as well. Do it And yeah, understandable counter argument
to that is it, well, if I look at it
(41:59):
this way, let people study when they're in prison, because
if they come out and that stears them in the
right direction fiscally. From a monetary point of view, the
money you've spent on getting someone in education if they
don't reoffend, is money well spent because the amount of costs.
I forget the figures. It's I'm throwing this out there.
Could be completely wrong, but just from a memory, it's
(42:21):
like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to
house one.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
From memory, I think it's a one hundred and seventy
one or one hundred and sixty one thousand a year.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
And then on top of that, basically every time INMKE
it's on a truck it's like eleven hundred dollars or
something that's a revolving doal.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
And the police and the impact it has on victims
and the victims of crime. So to me putting money
in to help educate people, I don't think it's soft,
as ken Marzo said, It's not getting soft, it's getting
smart on crime.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
So now inside mcquarie Correctional Center, Yeah, they run a
traineeship which is essentially a diploma but workplace engagement. So
the guys get to go down with the Zappos and
do their work hours. So while they're inmates, they're actually
getting out with a diploma work qualified to go and
(43:13):
do work in the community services field. So now it's
now it's implemented into the jail system.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
To me, it make sense. The trick is where you
go from that jail system, and you were talking about it,
you were scared of getting out of jail than you
were going into jail. Talk us through that, because I
don't think people realize how terrifying it can be when
you're used to an environment and all of a sudden,
(43:39):
I've been released into the world.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah. So yeah, so it's really tough. I guess, Like.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
I guess, if you want people to succeed in life,
you have to you have to take a chance on
them anyway, you know, Like I think some of the
hardest things for people to get their head around. And
you see someone that's been broadcasted over the news, and
let's face it, they have to sell papers, right, So
this so let's just say in a for example, Now
(44:08):
say for instance, the news get a hold of this
guy going in to do one two free, but the
papers have said one two free back then, and so
there's a massive like a confliction.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
People are like, but hang on, why would you like that?
Could I do that? When he done this.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Out you've got the headlines.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
But see then these guys go and do this, and
they're given that opportunity to go. Do you know how
many people that have left Macquarie for Extiononal Center and
have succeeding. They're actually succeeding. So by me coming on
here and talking is to get that message across. So
right now, I'm still doing a diploma. I applied for
my working with children checked while I was still in Cussy.
(44:48):
They got knocked back. Right, I don't have any domestic
violence crimes. I've never like all my crimes and they
are all club related. I'm not excusing any of it.
Not my crimes are my crimes. Now for the public
to then be able to accept someone, this is why
(45:11):
we touched on why people go into dark places and
why things happen. So I'm not excusing my behavior, but
I have told you there's a reason that my behavior
did go down this avenue and now I want to
take everything that I've learned and I want to take
it back out.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
And I want to help and I want to have
an impact.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I want to go into juvenile corrections where there's all
these young guys I might not get through to. If
I can get through to one, you think about that family.
You think about that mother and father. How grateful love
we to get their kid back. I just done time
with eighteen year old kids that are doing murder whacks
(45:53):
for this postcode bullshit.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
I don't even know what well they're in. They're just
running around. They're listen these gangster wrap. They see all
this that like, they see the way that we conduct
ourselves and that when we're out and gangs and that
sort of thing, and they think it's great and that's
what they want to be. But they don't know what
it is right until it's too late, until they've torn
their family apart, until they've ruined their lives, and when
(46:20):
they do realize what they've done wrong, they got to
live with that.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
It might be easy.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Then, it might be easy when you've got the boys
there with you, when you're on the drugs, when you're
doing this, when you're doing that. But when you get
back to being you, when you look and you're looking
at yourself in the mirror and you're wondering who you
are and you're wondering why you know or for something
so stupid. If I can get into t all these people,
it's not what you think is. Outside looking in is
(46:48):
much better than inside looking out.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
I can assure.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
You well, like with what they have at Macquarie, which
is good for where you got to that, but obviously
the ideal way would be preventing people going in there
and those get those young fellas and I bang on
about it here on the podcast, but people who have
got that lived experience carry more weight with the kids
(47:11):
that are going off.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
If you've got let's call a young punk going I'm
going to be this, I'm going to be that. I'm
going to be everything you were a biking this and that,
and you can sit them down and go mate, I
went down this path and this is what happened to me.
I'm telling you exactly. There's other paths that you can take.
There's no glory in.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
It and depending on and my guess is that a
lot of these people are probably dealing with something that
I was dealing with being identity issues too, and it's
just natural part of growing up. I just think that
there's it's just a different way, and I think we can.
I think that we can try and do more, do
(47:53):
more to prevent it. All we're doing is making the
work harder for the police. We're making it hard for
the families to get on and live. Like, do you
think about these what are the kids that I told
you about that I was doing time with. Now there's
a reason that that they murdered whoever it was, and
it's not because they were a good person. But what
about that person's family that just lost their son because
(48:16):
he had some kind of idea that got into his
head three months ago and he thought it was this
and that.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Look, I've seen the chaos that surrounds. Yeah, one person
being murdered or severely severely injured, the family of the
victim obviously, and the friends of the victim.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
You're multiple people, well you know, more than maybe that
I don't know, you know.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
And then the offender's family. Yeah, that might be your parents.
I'm sure that. Yeah, if you did something that they're
just gone. Oh no, something that would have kept you
in jail for life, which there was always always a
chance with the life that you were living. Yeah, their
lives are destroyed, your kids' lives. Like yeah, there's so
(48:56):
many same many things earth.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
And also but also too, like I told, I come
from a beautiful family. I come from a very strong family.
I kept myself separated from that, not entirely, but for
a veryvery long time because there are for the reasons
to do, and also with what was going on, and
like years and years ago, there was a pretty wild
(49:18):
incident that come to mom and Dad's house where we
used to live, and you know, I promised myself that
that would never happen again. But now I'm back with them,
and it's great, and these things are really good.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
You know.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, I'm so grateful for the second chance, the second
opportunity that I'm not going to say that I was
given because I gave it to myself. I did it myself,
you know, like the odds were on for me not
to succeed, and I proved so many people wrong. And
there's so many people that I'm grateful for the experience
that and I'm still experiencing it. Like I said, I
(49:52):
don't quite know who I am.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, well you know how long you've been out for
eight months? Okay, so it's all new to you. Yeah,
so feeling feeling your way?
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah. So.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
But for like, I'm doing a lot of social media
stuff around my art and that Now.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Where can people find find your art?
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (50:11):
So on TikTok at at see the Art crim so
actually so a T s Y. That's my art signature.
For obviously promotional reasons to do with it. I called
myself at See the Art crim Okay. Now, part of
it is going to be for me to be able
to maybe influence other people to get involved with art
(50:33):
if they've been through drama or other sorts of things.
And obviously I want to showcase my work. So I've
been going live each night at eight o'clock, which is
a bit weird because I don't understand how TikTok works.
I've got mate, I've got people coming up on the
screen and doing these battle things, and I'm just sitting
there smiling and talking.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
I've got no idea what's going on?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Good luck? Be careful, yeah, get your kids to tell
you what to do. Yeah, they know my kids take
my phone off me. No, Yeah, just don't do that.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah. Look, it is a new medium and it's a
way to get messages out and get your art out there.
But if that's an example of your work, you could
have told me that was a fader.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I can't believe the detail that you put in. How
long did it take you to paint that?
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Okay, so that didn't take me very long. I already
painted it before, so I kind of knew where I
was going. And it's monochromatic, so it's in black and white,
so it takes that color element.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Out of it.
Speaker 3 (51:35):
Yeah, so it probably only took me around ten hours.
If I were to produced the same thing in color,
it would probably take me probably around forty hours.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Made me a bit longer, you know, Jesus, there's a
real talent there. Is it all your type of art?
Is it all portraits or no? No?
Speaker 2 (51:51):
So I do. I haven't really found my style.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
I just love painting, so I do landscapes, animals more
Like I said, that's a realism painting. So I painted
one of two pac which is not so much realism.
But I guess more I don't really know all the
all the words that go with it, but more expression
is them or something like that, I guess, But I
(52:15):
just like to paint, so I don't really restrict myself.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
How many hours you spending the week painting.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
Funny enough, over the last two weeks with trying to
work out this social I haven't actually I haven't actually
got too much time up on the paintbrush. But I
promised myself because of all that that I'll put in
a lot more. But I like to spend, you know,
a few hours every night painting.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Here. Your family pleased with the person that ye walked
out the gates?
Speaker 3 (52:43):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, they and you know what, like I'm
in they used to come and visit me and like
I'd get a lot of wrap from the offices like
on their way in, and also inmates to my parents
and everything. I guess, you know, for what it was,
they had to find some way to find a way
to be proud of you.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Well, when I was talking to you on the phone
the other other day, I heard your mum in the back. Yeah. Yeah,
she sounds like a bit of a character.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
She's a character, all right, Yeah, she's the best man.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Well, yeah, I appreciate you coming on here, and we
both talked about the messaging that we wanted to get across,
and that was very much about a different way of
doing the prison system. Yeah, but yeah, we this podcast.
We'd love stories of redemption and turning your life around.
And yeah, I think full credit to you, and I
(53:33):
genuinely mean this. So I hope, because it's not long
that you've been out, I hope you can stay on
the stay on the journey. Yeah, and yeah, enjoy your life.
It's better on the outside percent.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
I just want to say too, So if any inmates,
for anyone, if they're getting out and they're struggling, you
can you can send me a message on or TikTok
whatever and I'll do whatever I can to help you.
If you need some advice or someone to talk to her.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
I think that's a good idea. Again, someone someone that's experienced.
And yeah, I've spoken to people without giving up names
that have known you and said that you're hitting in
the right direction.
Speaker 3 (54:14):
So yeah, it's been good and I've had the support
to go with it, and it's kind OF's a good feeling.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
To get that support, I had to prove myself too,
So you know, I didn't just come from nowhere. So well, sorry,
there's one that I just want to please, a bit
of a carne. She's left the corrections now, but she
used to go above and beyond for the boys as well.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
So now again, these are people who are making making
the difference, like a good corrective services officer if they're
just helping one person in there, yeah great, and yeah,
I'm sure wind it back. I don't know, six years
ago when you first started in super Max, I didn't think.
I don't think you would have been thinking I'm going
to sit here with a detective inspector from a gang
(55:00):
squad talking about corrective services officers that are.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, been great to be I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
No, I appreciate your making the effort. So all the
best for the future.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
And just add if people want to find out more
about what went on in the Quarie Correctional Center of
the podcast episode Breaking Badness, it goes in the great
detail the type of thing that Adam has been talking
about and really give you a sense of what goes
on in that prison.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
All right, thank you, Thanks you guys,
The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see a side of life the average person is
never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
That's what I did for a living. I was a
homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
(00:23):
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Join me now as I take you into this world.
(00:46):
Welcome back to part two of my chat with former
bikey and maximum security in Adam Smith. In part one,
we spoke about his early life, how I met him
in prison, his time as a senior member of an
outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's experiences in gold and supermax prison.
In part two, we speak about how a change of
prisons changed his outlook on life and what he is
(01:08):
doing since he was released from prison last year. Adam Smith.
Welcome back to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
How you doing good?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Good to have you back.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Be mate.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Speaking the other day, I said, what are you doing
with yourself? And you called yourself an artist. Yes, so
that's a that's a big jump from violent prisoner in
so violent that they had to be put in the
supermax in Golden what's the art that you're into? Tell
us about that?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So art? Was it come across?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I guess you could say in the supermax when I
finally got a pen and paper. I love to tell
the story that I learned to the art scribe and
my finger I was in the war, but that's not true.
I used to just sketch a little bit, just a
doodle and that sort of I guess that kind of
created something and then I didn't touch on it. But
when I went to Macquarie, it's some really good artists.
(02:03):
Like when I say really good, I mean really really
really good.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I've been to that the center there in the prison. Yeah,
there are some great pieces of art.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
So I spent a lot of time with I guess,
two of the best artists, but not associating around art.
We live together in a pod, you know. Yeah, Now
these two guys in particular, they could have gone through
and entered into the Archer bulb. They actually paved the
way sort of for art programs, I guess, in the
jail system. One of them in particular, who you met,
(02:39):
Bruce Harrison. Things happened in jail, and they're out of
people's control. He was destined to go and do the
last of his sentence teaching an art program. I think
it might have been at Long Bay, but that changed.
But I had the, I guess, fortunate luck of being
able to watch these guys paint every day. I was
(03:00):
convinced to start.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
First of all, I was convinced to try and join
their art class. But I still had so much cork.
My cork ran for over four years, you know. And
when I started drawing, they were decent drawings. When I
look back on them, they're not so decent, but at
the time that yeah. And when I showed when I
showed them, it was like, well, you should start painting.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Did you Did you have a natural aptitude for art?
Did you delve into it before you went to prison?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
When I was younger, like, I was never really good
at it. My brother was very good at.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Doing graffiti, like we set up big boards out in
the backyard at mum and Dad's and little kids, and
it was never any good. But I never had a
thought about being an artist. But I played guitar when
I was younger, and I was pretty pretty good at
it too, and so I was always there was an
artistic I just didn't realize it was.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You hadn't developed it or it hadn't come.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Out, and I still don't know how I do it.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Okay, well we'll talk about that. But we we left
you in part one. You're still in super Max and
now we're talking about your art. But I'm just going
to I can do this. I suppose it's of course,
of course it's a podcast, But have a look at
that drawing that you've done. I spotted it straight away
when I walk in. You bought it in It's Malcolm X.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah likeness an oil painting of malcom X. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, Well that's a good example of your art. So
we'll talk more about that. But I wanted to show people,
and if those that are listening that's showing, it doesn't
really help. But what we've got here is a portrait
that to me, it looked like a photograph of Malcolm X.
We'll talk about that a little bit later, but I just.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Thought i'd show people, Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Just before we get in the Macquarie I just want
to rehash, and I think we touched on it, that
super Max has been renovated and there was sixty prisoners
in super Max. Twenty had to get relocated and you
got relocated to Macquarie Correctional Center is up near Dabba.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Macquarie Correctional Center is a new way of handling prisons
and that was the reason that I was in prison
when out past First Cross to have a look at
the way that they're treating prisoners. It's completely different to
what I would call the traditional tell us about tell
us about what you found when you walked into there.
(05:24):
So you've gone from Golden the Yard in Golburen, which
was a pretty volatile place, lots of violence, lots of yeah,
lots of stuff went down there. You got kicked out
of there into Supermax and where you're living in a
cell on your own and very limited communication to be
dropped in Macquarie Center. Talk us through that whole process.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, no worry, Jerry.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So so they just finished booting the MPU, which was
the whole segregation inmates. So that was forty beds that
they had in there. So, like I said, there were
sixty inmates, and so that twenty of us had to
go around the state into segregation. What they basically call it,
they call it rotation. So if you get either segregation
(06:09):
for a certain amount of time or something they call
seventy eight A, which is housing, which means they can't
house you for certain reasons, so you'll go onto a rotation.
So I landed at Macquarie. You only really meant to
stay at a certain location for a certain amount of time.
I don't know how or why, but I ended up staying.
I think I was well, I think I can't remember exactly,
(06:30):
but it was a few months. And I was never
meant to go up. I was never meant to go
out into the main. It wasn't for gang members. It
was meant to be for inmates that wanted to basically
toe the line and develop and rehabilitate, and they put
gang members off the table. Now, my experience with correctional
officers was pretty much all bad. There was a certain
(06:55):
level of I guess respect that I was given by
certain offices in different jails, but there was never ever
a level of being treated with respect, yeah, or given
your dignity mind that. So when I went to mcclarie,
I was obviously it was a big deal. So they
(07:16):
had all the squad and because it's on the same
property as Wellington Jail, which is very much similar to
Goldban or silver Water.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Or something in the traditional sense of a prison, and.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
It's on the same property, so I'm assuming that they
must have had some of the squad from there as
we will come. And at the end of this time,
you can imagine what I've just been through. The first
thing that I asked when I got off the tracks,
so I get a TV? And they said yes, And
I sat down on the end of the bed for
about probably eight hours watching kids shows. I couldn't believe
my eyes, you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Know, just to get some form of stimulation, fl.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Like I was free. That's how I felt, right. I
was still very unsure of my future in jail at
this point.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So how far into sixty sentence that you've served at this.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Stage, maybe about so close to a year, right, So
I still had no I still had no idea what
was happening with my court. I ended up fighting another
three trials after my After my court, they just kept
trying to get me and get me, but I beat
those trials. Brad Peebles, who's who was the governor of
(08:21):
mcclorie at the time. He went above and beyond to
give inmates an opportunity, and I think it probably could
have cost him his career in doing it if it
had gone wrong. It was only ever meant to be
an experiment. I don't know, did you know that?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, I know initially there was. It was bored in
years ago and then then stopped and the Brad peoples
very much promoted it and pushed it. And it's not
this similar to like a Norwegian way of handling prisoners.
Just so our listeners understand what we're talking about here,
(08:56):
your maximum security prisoner, and yeah, max security prisoners are
praying to violence and you keep some tight control on them,
a lot of lockdowns, you spend a lot of time
in your cell super macs, you spend an extremely large
amount of time in your cell, and you're not allowed
to mix with other inmates. So you've gone from that
environment into what they had at Macquarie Correctional Center where
(09:18):
they had dorms with twenty five maximum security prisoners in there.
That's when when I walked into the dorm, I thought
that would be a bloodbath. They're having twenty five of
you all in there, just all locked away, access to
twenty five other other inmates. Yeah, but you tell the
story because I was observing, and how did you feel
(09:41):
when you were given that much, well, basically freedom within
a prison as much as a freedom that you get.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was no certainty of my stay
at Macquarie. I was online, I was told that it
was made very clear to me as soon as I
got there. Spending my time in supermax. This was massively
concerning because their segregation units at Macquarie, the way I
(10:08):
described it at the time, was an F one motel
room compared.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
To what from what you came to from.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So you have your dignity, you have you have you
have room, you have a massive bench that you can
work on, you have toilet, chaw, it's all clean, the
same size as your little yard out the back. And
this is in segregation, and you're treated well when you're
down there as long as you respect, you give me
like so it's reciprocated.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Okay, so this is the segregation section we've been Macquarie
Correctional Center. What you described describing there, Yes, so distinct
from the dorms where the general population got.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
That's exactly right. So obviously Brad Peebles to do what
he did, he had to have a great team. Now
I'm sure that team consisted of a lot more people
than I know of. Yeah, but he had Bywater, who
is a stand up guy who has a reputation too
(11:07):
for being a tough guy throughout his So he I
think he was a boss of a squad. And this
guy is an absolute gentleman. We'll have nothing but respect
for him and the way that he conducts himself as
an officer and the way that he treats inmates, hard
but fair. I'd say he had Brett Lee's and you
(11:31):
obviously met Brett Lee.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So he's a character.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Well he's a character so or.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Just so the viewers can understand, this is the guy
that went on to become the governor at the prison
after Brad Peebles, he had gone on to another project.
He's a psychologist and he runs with that every day. Okay, So,
although there's always a certain amount of humor around whatever's
(11:55):
coming out of his mouth, every word counts.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
That's a fair assessment.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
And he does that for a reason obviously, and there's
only very few people that can pick up on that.
So he's another one that has gone above and beyond
to try and do things for certain inmates. Myself definitely.
So with these guys in your corner, and then you
have the intel side, which is run by a couple
(12:22):
of officers.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
So you've got.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Stanger Andrew Stinger, absolute absolute, dead set, stand up guy.
This guy is very very smart, very calculated, but very fair.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
So these guys you can understand, they run the intel,
they can they know what's going on. Yeah, best intel
in Australia and jail is that Macquarie. And then you've
got standing there. Those two work together, but they maintain
the respect of the inmates. I guess that actually matter
to make him the system work.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You give me.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I'm taking on what you've what you're saying here, because
it's unusual for a prisoner to be talking about coreactive services.
Normally it's screws and the Blue and the Green don't
mix traditional prisons. What I saw at Quarry Centa was
that the respects went both ways. Yeah, and it wasn't
sort of false respect. That was the creative services officers
(13:20):
that I saw treated the prisoners with respect and the
prisoners were treating the creative services officers with respect. And
it was different to any jail I had been in,
and the whole vibe felt felt different.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So this, this creates a little bit of an issue
in the jail environment because then you have people that
want to be in this shale, but then they want
to make out like their mister gangster this that, and
they don't want to respect the officers, but they actually do,
but they just make out. So that creates a little
bit of a little bit of an issue. So you've
(13:53):
got to sort of put that aside and just do
your own thing, you know. Like I said, jail politics
are a funny thing. Always need to be able to
make sure that you can walk into a jail yard
somewhere because you might end up there.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, you said to me the other day that when
the prisoners that were talking to me were the ones
that could hold their head up and didn't need to
they weren't worried what other people thought. And I got
to say, there was some hard cases in there in
terms of if I look at I know their reputation,
I had dealings, I know what they've done and who
(14:25):
they are, and they'd stand up in any jail, yeah,
for sure. But in this jail their behavior was changed
and instead of bridging up, they were communicating and talking.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And problem solvers, you know. So there's a fair fuel
of that.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
It would always have to go out to diffuse something
or just say, for instance, the jail started getting a
little bit violent, they'd call a lot of us down
to talk to us and say we need this to change.
So then we would say, well what can you do
for us? Like this is the way that we're working here,
we're working with each other.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So we saw a.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Barter it down, you know, and then we back and
we'd pull the pod in and say, well, this is
what's going to happen because the jarl needs to be
like this for the next few weeks, and there we'd
make it happen.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
You know, how long did it take you to get
moved into a pod?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
So, like I said, I was never really gone, but
they kept coming in saying to me, or if you
want to sign your intel off, we'll let you stay here,
and I just thought it was a ja I thought
it was a stitch up. I thought I'd trying to
set me up to make it harder for me. Anyway,
I ended up doing this. At the time, I was
not leaving any club, and.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That was what we're talking here. You've got to sign
off any affiliation with the club because of gain coup
in Macquarie.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Center, so anyone that comes there has to do that
right now. CIG Central Intelligence Group, So for people like myself,
you're on their radar immediately anyway. So they're the ones
that are responsible for the function functioning of New South Wales.
I'm not sure if it's Asrail or that's New South Wales.
But they said to.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Me, you're a liar.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Why you're there, They said, basically brought people to take
a chance on you. Why you're there, that's fine, But
when you're fuck up your ours and you're gone straight
back to where you come from.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
So I had that in the back of my mind
the whole time, and then they just slowly integrated me
to the pod. They didn't just put me out the
vis let me out at times and integrate with people slowly.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But the way you describe it, Adam, it's like releasing
the line back in.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
The Yeah, and it completely wasn't the case, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, but that's they let you in, they test Okay,
you spent a half an hour in there, there was
no trouble, come back out, okay. So that process how long?
How long did it take.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
That process?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I guess it probably lasted around two to three weeks,
And right up until the point when I walked into
the pod with my trolling, I still didn't believe it.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You know, you didn't believe you'd be released, or didn't
believe in the environment that you'd be.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
No, I didn't believe that. I didn't believe that what
was being said was true. Jail is a place where
you be told many different things from someone that you
will believe that should be telling you what you meant
to hear. But I don't say from an officer or
a person of a certain level. But it's not the case.
You know, it's a very dark and distorted place, and
(17:25):
you're never safe anywhere, like meaning that your position in
any jlity is never Someone can just put that tick
into the computer and you're on a truck. And my
circumstances were I was like, what's it going to take nothing?
It's going to take nothing. And so I had certain
people on my side, but the majority of the officers
(17:47):
and that were like, you're letting this guy hit into
our prison, you know anyway, So then I come out
of the present slowly have a time. I mean, it
took the whole time for a lot of them. I
think maybe they just thought I was full of shit.
I've always been very respectful.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And what do you think that the naysay is going
through their mind? He's just taking the piss out of us.
He'll get in there and when he's got an issue,
he's going to light someone up and yeah, yeah, and
then we'll send him back. So that would have been
and given you history, it's a reasonable for him to
have is just bullshitting to us, and let me in
(18:23):
the dorm and when I do create havoc, it's going
to be a big one. Then you can ship me
back to super Max.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, And I guess you know, I understand why they
think that, because, to be honest, I always said to
myself that and do whatever I can to make sure
that I keep my hands to myself.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But if someone puts their hands on me. Well, that's
different story, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And the problem that there was it was either going
to be nothing or six o'clock New Style, Do.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You get me?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
And that's not what I want to do though, and
that's not what anyone wants say. I had, like, I
worked on myself very hard.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
You know what stage was your mindset changing that, Hey,
I want to turn my life around. Was it when
you saw what was on offer at Macquarie Center. Was
that something that changed? What was the thing that.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
So I just want to make something very clear. So
I've just sat here and you give a lot of
officers a good rap, a lot of correctional officers. The
start of this change does not start with an inmate.
And if anyone has the expectations that that's the case,
you're completely wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And I can explain why.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
So we come from a place where your battle is
stay alive. There's Westpac. I only got the spine out
of their daily So then I come to Macquarie, where
there's where you're expected to toe this certain line. Right,
but you're still in the same environment where you're dealing
with the inmates, and.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
You've crossed bathro with these inmates.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
You might have gone the water with its inmate at
some stage two and you're both there trying to do
the right thing. Now for an officer to say get
a to you in front of the boys and expect
you just say good a back after you've just got
a truck off a truck, when the only thing coming
at your mouth that officer is get the fuck out
of your dog. Yeah, now they're asking for something different, right,
(20:10):
but as history shows, they've never given us any reason
to give them respect. You show them respect and it
would be used against you. Right now, you turn up
to this place and your question if they're stitching out
because it is not right. Yeah, But over time you
(20:31):
realize that they actually care about their job, They care
about trying to revealiitate you. So they must have chose
a team of officers that were to grow there. And
over time, when you work that out, so you gain
that initial respect from the officer, that will go the
way and over time you'll build a rapport. That doesn't
mean that you go up and you sit down and
you say, oh, how it's dinner last night.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, you're not best mates, but there's respect.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But how are you today? I'm fine, you know, what's
that you're carrying with a piece of artwork? I just
did it here down here, and then you know, like
I had officers by an artwork of me, you know,
And I found my jail to be very easy. And
everyone that works this out and then returns that it's
only minimal respect. It's just common courtesy. How are you today?
(21:15):
I'm well, thanks, how are you? You're not stepping outside
the boundaries, it's going to put you in trouble. Through
jail politics, there's always going to be someone that will say, oh,
this guy was too friendly. Yeah, but it's usually them
trying to cover up something that they've done somewhere, you know,
the old deflectioning trick. Like not many inmates are smart,
you know what I mean, Like, there's not many. And
(21:36):
from that point there, when that's shown in the first place,
then it's given back and that it can grow. But
it can't be expected from an inmate when he's been
given nothing but shipped from this person in blue every
single experience he's had.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I'm hearing what you're saying. And so it's a slow
process where the trust is built up and the respect
is respect is gained, and.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
You've got someone that has has a lifetime of behaviors
that he's trying to change, So that officers also needs
to acknowledge that there is going to be error and
not write that person off of that error, but allow
that person to change. As long as he hasn't across
the lines, that doesn't permit him to stay at that
correctional center.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, look, I've got to say from I was surprised
by the officers that I got to deal with, and
just a cross section of them. They were genuinely invested
in what they were doing. Yeah, yeah, part of it
is self serving. They said, our job is so much
easier here if we go across to Wellington. We're dealing
with all this shit and trouble that happens in a
(22:43):
more traditional jarl, and you come across here and there's
less shit that goes down.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
And there's some standouts, like obviously in every field of everything.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
So I've mentioned a fair few officers, but there's one
that there's too. I want to mention one in particular
that really drove so I implemented an NA program into Macquarie.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Right now, this is pretty big because that's some statement.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
What did that involve.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
So if for the.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Viewers, if they understand how NA works or AA works,
it's the same sort of system. The only problem is
that being in a jail environment, there's not much anonymous
about it because they need to know who you are
and where we are. But we were allowed to conduct ourselves. Now,
at one point I had over ten percent of the
jail in attendance voluntary. All right, that's pretty big numbers
(23:38):
of boys that actually want to try and change get
off the gear, yeap. But Elizabeth says, right, she was
in our corner from day one, right, and the other
officers that I did mention before, and they helped to
drive this thing, and why I was. I'm pretty sure
it's probably folded by now. I hope it hasn't because
it was going to be a massive thing. But Elizabeth Sears,
(24:02):
she really drove it and to a point where they
tried to stop it. But there's been a massive response.
So we've got boys that have been heroin addicts and
full recovery.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Now that's a good changing their lives. Mate.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And you mentioned Liz Sears. I can speak about her.
She sat where you're sitting. She came on as a
guest here, and actually she opened eyes to a lot
of things about what's going on in the prisons and
different ways of doing it. Because I was looking, okay,
well you've done the crime, you do the time, didn't
really think much much about it. A couple of blokes
that have been in have sort of said to me,
(24:38):
will you treat this like animals? We're going to come
out behaving like animals. But what Liz explained what they
were doing at Macquarie, it just sort of blew me away.
It made so much sense.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
So I want to make it clear about my positioning
coming on here today. I want people to understand about
people that have committed crimes. Fair Enough, they need to
be punished for their crimes, but if they want to
change their ways, they don't need to drag that round
with the rest for the rest of their lives, right,
weighing them down and forcing them into a corner and
(25:11):
given an option to rehabilitate and grow. Right if the
public knows this and supports this system. Just for example,
I'm not going to mention any names, Robert, but I
was in that jail and quarry with some heavy hitters.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Mate.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I'm talking on these streets of Sydney and they're big hitters. Yeah, yeah,
very very big hitters, and they're doing the same thing.
They're better in their lives. They're getting away from the rubbish.
They want to come out and have a fresh start.
They want the best for their kids, they want the
best for their grandkids. They've been given an opportunity and
they're taking it and they're using it and they need
(25:47):
to be respected for it.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And when they come.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Out into the community and they have a go and
they're trying to do the right thing, they need to
be given them doors. They need to be shown that
they can use what they've done to go and do
better and do more. And these guys are really trying.
So if the public knows that this system is available, Like,
let's not forget that we're based that we're built on
a background of convicts. We're always going to have a
(26:12):
jail system. But if we can rehabilitate inmates, especially ones
that have been through the ropes, they can come back
out and they can be someone to these young people
out here.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
You know, well, I know some of the people that
you're talking about. And in the time I spent there,
I got to speak to them, and yeah, I was
surprised that I was even speaking to them, And yeah,
I'm not naive, but I thought it was genuine in
what they were saying, instead of you leave me in
this other system. I was angry, but I've seen here.
(26:46):
What the fuck? Why have I wasted my life? I
want to turn my life around. Then they to me,
they seem genuine and I'm not naive. That was, of
course I understood. But the other thing the prison does,
and this is my and I've had a couple laughs
because the humor is still there, and a couple of
laughs at my expense.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Of of course, you got to expect that.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Were you one of the people yelling out there, let
that go. But there was a couple of funny, funny
and weird comments. But anyway, as you expect walking through prison.
But they said, in those dorms, living in the dorms,
where you're picturing an area probably I don't know, three
sizes of size of a tennis court for twenty five
(27:29):
twenty five people. There a courtyard out the back where
there's some gym equipment. You get to stay out there
till nine o'clock. If you need to stay out and
some of the inmates are saying, this is the first
time I've been able to see stars for years, because
they can sit out there, lockdowns at nine o'clock when
they have to come in. You're cooking out there, you
train there. The toilets are set up, not for bashings.
(27:52):
It's a single booth thing shower and toilet, and people
are assigned to it. Kitchen that barbecue out the back.
Noweople might say, well, that's too much luxury for it
with the crimes that they've done. Of course, what blew
me away was the fact that if there's twenty five
ore there and one's being a dickhead, instead of the
(28:13):
usual jail justice where he would have been bashed or
shived or or whatever and dealt with, you get a
group sit there and negotiate through and go, look, we
can't put up with this type of behavior. Then you
actually vote them out of the pot if they're causing
too much problems. That's negotiation skills. That's the type of
skills you need for society. Those little things were the
(28:33):
type of things that I took away from it.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So this is a perfect time just
for me to clarify when I told the boys not
to talk to you. Yep, So little did you know
at that time that I actually had plans to come
out here and talk to you, to try and to
push this and I want to eventually try and help
young people that are going into gangs. And but beside
(28:57):
that point, most people in a jail in environment can't
handle themselves. So essentially in that environment where lorified babysitters now.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
As in the people that can handle themselves look after
the people that can't handle themselves.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Now, in another jailed environment, we wouldn't be doing that
so much because there's no benefit for us to do that.
It's only going to make us week to align with
someone this week. In that environment, we're keeping the peace,
were making sure things are working and things are flowing. Now,
these eyes if they had to come in and thought
that it was a good idea to talk to you,
and then they were on a truck tomorrow in the
(29:33):
silver water, and then they got the silver bar and
they said, talking to Gary Jubilin, he'd be walking out
of him. He'd be walking out like a dartboard, you
know what I mean. So that was the reason that
I did that then, so they had nothing to do
with people not talking to you. So the voice that
did talk to you have enough respect and enough weight
within the jail system that they can justify what they did.
(29:55):
They didn't do anything wrong. The discussion that with you
wasn't anything that couldn't be discuss but there was all
there was also aside to it, and the jail benefit
from them speaking to you too.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, I look at it was a difficult thing and
I had no idea what would go on, and that
worried me because corrective services had no idea. When I
said what's going to happen, they said, we have no
fucking idea when you walk in. But yeah, with the
benefit of hindsight, walking in the pod was probably unannounced.
And that's why I think, then may it be known
what I was doing there and speaking to the people
(30:28):
and what you've said too. I was conscious of that
because I know I'm going in, but I get to
get to leave and some of the some of the
blokes that were naive and talking to me, I'm thinking,
this is not a good look. The heaviest, the people
that I would identify as the ones that can hold
their own felt more than comfortable talking talking to them
(30:49):
because I knew it's not going to come back on them.
There was a few people, so I understand what you're saying.
And even that incident we're talking about where you were
telling them not to pull back, and it was fairly
obvious that I wasn't well liked in there, but I
was worried about a couple of people that were thinking
what the fuck is going to happen after I walk out?
We're talking, So I respect it and my mistake there,
(31:11):
that's that's your home, and I've just walked in there,
walking around in the at the gym and the oval whatever,
that wasn't as bad, but that was walking walking in
your home. So didn't make that mistake again.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
No, but I think I think it was a good
thing that you did.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
I mean, obviously say you've had both sides, yeah, I
mean I remember hearing one of the boys real about
you so saying that you're a copper. But now you've
been charged and you want to jump on our side
now and you want to do this right?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Now, we're human beings. We adapt. Why do you think
that we can go into a yard like the yard at.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Golden and survive. Yeah, why do you think our grandfathers
went to war and slept in trenches for the blood.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
We're humans.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
We adapt to every situation. You had to do with that,
So you were that, but you're doing good with what
you took from that. So back in position, I don't
think you had the opportunity to see outside because you're
a police officer.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Well that's and yeah, I own this. And my thing
was I used to lock people up, get given another case,
and then follow that case, and then I wasn't thinking
what happened behind the behind the yard, behind the gates.
But no, I think it was an interesting, interesting experience.
And I also went into Wellington and the attitude was
(32:26):
there was completely different. When I'm walking around there. Well,
still the comments, but a little bit more intense when
I was in there.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
But yeah, so you can understand why though, Oh it's
a different.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
So so those boys, those boys have to make comments,
you get me, they see you walk past, they're in
a yard, they're in a stand up yard. They have
to go a coup of dog, keep walking, Yeah, because
if they don't, it's I don't turn around and go
what are your fucking copper? And then the rest of
the boys hear it and we're talking about some weak minds.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, I know that it could set off.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It'll swell until it happens.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, well, I wasn't sure how long did it go
on because I know there was a bit of turmoil
when I first came into Macquarie and yeah, I don't
want to cause the dramas here, but yeah, it worked
out and I think it was worthwhile for everyone. And
I got it, got a got a message out. But
it opened my eyes, it really did. And another thing
(33:26):
because I'm thinking, have I had the warl pool out
of my eyes after spending time with you guys for
so long? But I spoke to a person who'd lost
his son in a murder and he made he made
the point Ken Marslow, it was a bad, bad, one
armed robbery where his nine year old son was shopped
during robbery a pizza hut and no need for it.
(33:49):
But I said that, Ken, Ken, am I missing the
point here? Have I gone soft? Like I'm thinking what
they're doing here in this prison is definitely worthwhile? And
he said it's about getting smart on crime, Like these
people are going to go out, do we want them skills?
To go out. So if they go out and don't
commit further crime, there's less victims. So no, you're not
(34:09):
going soften. Yeah, that was from a victim's point of
view that I wanted to get. So I've been championing
what they're doing in there wherever I can, and I'm
not naive, And even you guys, the inmates in there,
would say this isn't going to work for everyone, Like
there's that ten percent that you're not going to change.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
That holds relevance to everyone. Yeah, right, And it depends
where everyone's at in their time. Some people, there's some
prisoners that can't adapt, they can't change. Yeah, right, jail's easy.
Like if you get like, people might spin out when
I say that. But for me, even in a jail
where anything can happen, that's that's your only Can you
(34:48):
focus on that all day all night and it might
get more volatile and more twisted up and everything, but
that's what you're doing. Get up in the morning, get
in the yard for so many and you come back
in that's it quarry for me, Like, it was great
because I got up and I got the able and
do things. I was painting at a mad job, and
I found that great. And then you come out into
the real world and it's real.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Well, one of the prisoners in there said, I was
talking to him, and he's gone when I go home
at night, and I'm thinking that, But that's how he
was looking at the pot that's going home. But they
had you studying for six hours a day, working for
six hours a day, and given some freedoms. Yeah, and
what difference did that make to you from going from
(35:32):
the traditional tough yard in Goulburn too into an environment
like that. How did that change?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Listen?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
I was already wanting to change anyway, you know, like
I was wanting to I was paying it all up
and everything that I've lost, you know, Like I mean
I had, like I had a beautiful little family and
that and even though like I've still got my kids
and like I love them to death, they love me too.
And there's this massive time frame that I missed out
on photos and at hung I can just stare at
(36:02):
because I can remember that time. Like my daughter, My
daughter's a little machine, you know, And I just look
at this fight and sometimes it can just make me crumble,
you know, because I can remember that, and I can
remember how much I loved it, and it just hurts
me to think that, you know, that I went that
way still with that, So that's sort of what hurts
me the most. But as far as that point when
(36:23):
it comes time to change, mate, when I was hitting
super Max and and after having that little dream that
I told you about there and I just thought, what
am I doing?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Though?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
What am I going to do? Am I gonna? Am
I going to go back out into a yard? And
am I gonna? And this is what I do. I
elevate myself to whatever it has to happen, you know,
And sometimes I fake it to make it, but I
get there and I don't even know what I'm capable
of until until.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
It goes there. But I have that ability to adapt. Now.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I knew that if I went back out into that yard,
I was going to have to elevate more, or if
I wanted to go and take the same traction no
matter where I ended up, And I knew what that
meant for me, and that was to guarantee the one
of the two things that was going to happen to
me before I went to jail. So that was time
to change, you know. But to change, I had to
(37:15):
heal too, and that's where this art come into it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Okay, so with the art, and we spoke earlier on
about it, but that's given you something to channel your energy. Yeah,
Like I'm a big believery ying and Yang. You've got
the hard side, You've got the soft side is this
You're channeling the soft energy into India paintings.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Like with this is like, I have trouble expressing my emotions.
So and I'm either here or I'm there, and like
and depending on the emotions depends on the way that
I'm going to hold myself. Right if a tear comes
to my eyes as a dangerous situation because I feel
(37:58):
like someone will said that tear and and think I'm weak,
So I'll elevate to a situation where it'll probably take
someone special to stand there, you know. And I hate
that and I hate that person and it made me sick.
You know, I didn't like that person. I knew I
didn't like that person, and I thought, who, how can
anyone love me or like me if I don't like
(38:19):
this person? And that's where this come into it. So
I got to express my emotions with having to let
it out. I just grab a paint brush as I
start slapping around. The only thing I did do was
I helped myself back. Was I was too neat when
I was learning. If I really wanted to let my
emotions go, I should have just frown that brush around,
you know, Like I know like I'm doing now, And
it's the best way to deliver a message that you
(38:42):
want to get out or to relieve yourself or something.
And color can do Color can do this. So color
has an association in our brain that allows us to
either feel a certain way when we see a color
or react a certain way. And I've really embraced it.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I can see how you're talking now, the comness that
comes across with you. You're talking talking about your art.
So is that striving to make a living from your art?
Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I would love to make a living from my art.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So, like I told you that, I've been studying and everything,
and I would love to get into juvenile corrections.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Okay, tell us that we've had a chat, but it
wasn't on Mike, tell us about what you're studying and
what you're doing there.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Okay, So funny story. Me and an old enemy from
a different gang. We did a search for a youth
work together at the.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Jail, right, okay, so they.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Used to hear it. Well, they used to use me
every time a new gangman would come.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
They come, they get me to go down and talk
to them to try and explain the why the jail
is anyway, So the day I had to go down
and speak with this lad, we end up becoming so close.
It's like and I got a lot of love for him,
you know. But back on the streets and Mount Drew,
it thinks she used to be very dif print, you know. Anyways,
(40:03):
we need to search for a youth work together through correspondence,
and it was something that was I guess they had
to get the bricks and mortar out to make it happen. Yeah, yeah,
that makes.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Sense, Yeah, to let you you guys do that.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
And so then there was a big outcry over in
the jail about people everyone want to do.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
To do it as well, but they weren't allowed to.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
And it was like, well, well you've got to be
a gang member or you know, they're not meant to
be here.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
That's you get me, right.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
So there was this is politics of a different, different
level in the well.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I guess this is where politics collide.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Okay, so they're giving you guys because you've been so
bad and your gang members and you shouldn't be in here,
but you're allowed to do it. Why aren't we allowed
to do it?
Speaker 3 (40:47):
But they had a reason for it, Yeah, and they
and it was paving the way for them in a
jailed environment. Fast thinking people don't get to absorb this
information and sort of try and take a back to
have a.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Look at the big picture.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah, but it had to be done first, trying to
get something over the line to give inmates. It's a
dead end. Yeah, So it's a hard slog.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
And why do you say that it's a dead end.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Or well, you're talking about saying an inmate that's got
in charge for a double murder. Yeah, right, and now
he's asking for funding, not just any funding, he's asking
for ten or twenty grand. Why he's the inmate to
study so one on the clock back no way in
the world.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Well that's the public. When I say the public, there's
a view of public view that why are we rewarding
people for going to prison? And that's the type of
pushback as well. Do it And yeah, understandable counter argument
to that is it, well, if I look at it
(41:59):
this way, let people study when they're in prison, because
if they come out and that stears them in the
right direction fiscally. From a monetary point of view, the
money you've spent on getting someone in education if they
don't reoffend, is money well spent because the amount of costs.
I forget the figures. It's I'm throwing this out there.
Could be completely wrong, but just from a memory, it's
(42:21):
like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to
house one.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
From memory, I think it's a one hundred and seventy
one or one hundred and sixty one thousand a year.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
And then on top of that, basically every time INMKE
it's on a truck it's like eleven hundred dollars or
something that's a revolving doal.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
And the police and the impact it has on victims
and the victims of crime. So to me putting money
in to help educate people, I don't think it's soft,
as ken Marzo said, It's not getting soft, it's getting
smart on crime.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
So now inside mcquarie Correctional Center, Yeah, they run a
traineeship which is essentially a diploma but workplace engagement. So
the guys get to go down with the Zappos and
do their work hours. So while they're inmates, they're actually
getting out with a diploma work qualified to go and
(43:13):
do work in the community services field. So now it's
now it's implemented into the jail system.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
To me, it make sense. The trick is where you
go from that jail system, and you were talking about it,
you were scared of getting out of jail than you
were going into jail. Talk us through that, because I
don't think people realize how terrifying it can be when
you're used to an environment and all of a sudden,
(43:39):
I've been released into the world.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah. So yeah, so it's really tough. I guess, Like.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
I guess, if you want people to succeed in life,
you have to you have to take a chance on
them anyway, you know, Like I think some of the
hardest things for people to get their head around. And
you see someone that's been broadcasted over the news, and
let's face it, they have to sell papers, right, So
this so let's just say in a for example, Now
(44:08):
say for instance, the news get a hold of this
guy going in to do one two free, but the
papers have said one two free back then, and so
there's a massive like a confliction.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
People are like, but hang on, why would you like that?
Could I do that? When he done this.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Out you've got the headlines.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
But see then these guys go and do this, and
they're given that opportunity to go. Do you know how
many people that have left Macquarie for Extiononal Center and
have succeeding. They're actually succeeding. So by me coming on
here and talking is to get that message across. So
right now, I'm still doing a diploma. I applied for
my working with children checked while I was still in Cussy.
(44:48):
They got knocked back. Right, I don't have any domestic
violence crimes. I've never like all my crimes and they
are all club related. I'm not excusing any of it.
Not my crimes are my crimes. Now for the public
to then be able to accept someone, this is why
(45:11):
we touched on why people go into dark places and
why things happen. So I'm not excusing my behavior, but
I have told you there's a reason that my behavior
did go down this avenue and now I want to
take everything that I've learned and I want to take
it back out.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
And I want to help and I want to have
an impact.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I want to go into juvenile corrections where there's all
these young guys I might not get through to. If
I can get through to one, you think about that family.
You think about that mother and father. How grateful love
we to get their kid back. I just done time
with eighteen year old kids that are doing murder whacks
(45:53):
for this postcode bullshit.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
I don't even know what well they're in. They're just
running around. They're listen these gangster wrap. They see all
this that like, they see the way that we conduct
ourselves and that when we're out and gangs and that
sort of thing, and they think it's great and that's
what they want to be. But they don't know what
it is right until it's too late, until they've torn
their family apart, until they've ruined their lives, and when
(46:20):
they do realize what they've done wrong, they got to
live with that.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
It might be easy.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Then, it might be easy when you've got the boys
there with you, when you're on the drugs, when you're
doing this, when you're doing that. But when you get
back to being you, when you look and you're looking
at yourself in the mirror and you're wondering who you
are and you're wondering why you know or for something
so stupid. If I can get into t all these people,
it's not what you think is. Outside looking in is
(46:48):
much better than inside looking out.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
I can assure.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
You well, like with what they have at Macquarie, which
is good for where you got to that, but obviously
the ideal way would be preventing people going in there
and those get those young fellas and I bang on
about it here on the podcast, but people who have
got that lived experience carry more weight with the kids
(47:11):
that are going off.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
If you've got let's call a young punk going I'm
going to be this, I'm going to be that. I'm
going to be everything you were a biking this and that,
and you can sit them down and go mate, I
went down this path and this is what happened to me.
I'm telling you exactly. There's other paths that you can take.
There's no glory in.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
It and depending on and my guess is that a
lot of these people are probably dealing with something that
I was dealing with being identity issues too, and it's
just natural part of growing up. I just think that
there's it's just a different way, and I think we can.
I think that we can try and do more, do
(47:53):
more to prevent it. All we're doing is making the
work harder for the police. We're making it hard for
the families to get on and live. Like, do you
think about these what are the kids that I told
you about that I was doing time with. Now there's
a reason that that they murdered whoever it was, and
it's not because they were a good person. But what
about that person's family that just lost their son because
(48:16):
he had some kind of idea that got into his
head three months ago and he thought it was this
and that.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Look, I've seen the chaos that surrounds. Yeah, one person
being murdered or severely severely injured, the family of the
victim obviously, and the friends of the victim.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
You're multiple people, well you know, more than maybe that
I don't know, you know.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
And then the offender's family. Yeah, that might be your parents.
I'm sure that. Yeah, if you did something that they're
just gone. Oh no, something that would have kept you
in jail for life, which there was always always a
chance with the life that you were living. Yeah, their
lives are destroyed, your kids' lives. Like yeah, there's so
(48:56):
many same many things earth.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
And also but also too, like I told, I come
from a beautiful family. I come from a very strong family.
I kept myself separated from that, not entirely, but for
a veryvery long time because there are for the reasons
to do, and also with what was going on, and
like years and years ago, there was a pretty wild
(49:18):
incident that come to mom and Dad's house where we
used to live, and you know, I promised myself that
that would never happen again. But now I'm back with them,
and it's great, and these things are really good.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
You know.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, I'm so grateful for the second chance, the second
opportunity that I'm not going to say that I was
given because I gave it to myself. I did it myself,
you know, like the odds were on for me not
to succeed, and I proved so many people wrong. And
there's so many people that I'm grateful for the experience
that and I'm still experiencing it. Like I said, I
(49:52):
don't quite know who I am.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, well you know how long you've been out for
eight months? Okay, so it's all new to you. Yeah,
so feeling feeling your way?
Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah. So.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
But for like, I'm doing a lot of social media
stuff around my art and that Now.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Where can people find find your art?
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (50:11):
So on TikTok at at see the Art crim so
actually so a T s Y. That's my art signature.
For obviously promotional reasons to do with it. I called
myself at See the Art crim Okay. Now, part of
it is going to be for me to be able
to maybe influence other people to get involved with art
(50:33):
if they've been through drama or other sorts of things.
And obviously I want to showcase my work. So I've
been going live each night at eight o'clock, which is
a bit weird because I don't understand how TikTok works.
I've got mate, I've got people coming up on the
screen and doing these battle things, and I'm just sitting
there smiling and talking.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
I've got no idea what's going on?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Good luck? Be careful, yeah, get your kids to tell
you what to do. Yeah, they know my kids take
my phone off me. No, Yeah, just don't do that.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah. Look, it is a new medium and it's a
way to get messages out and get your art out there.
But if that's an example of your work, you could
have told me that was a fader.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I can't believe the detail that you put in. How
long did it take you to paint that?
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Okay, so that didn't take me very long. I already
painted it before, so I kind of knew where I
was going. And it's monochromatic, so it's in black and white,
so it takes that color element.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Out of it.
Speaker 3 (51:35):
Yeah, so it probably only took me around ten hours.
If I were to produced the same thing in color,
it would probably take me probably around forty hours.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Made me a bit longer, you know, Jesus, there's a
real talent there. Is it all your type of art?
Is it all portraits or no? No?
Speaker 2 (51:51):
So I do. I haven't really found my style.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
I just love painting, so I do landscapes, animals more
Like I said, that's a realism painting. So I painted
one of two pac which is not so much realism.
But I guess more I don't really know all the
all the words that go with it, but more expression
is them or something like that, I guess, But I
(52:15):
just like to paint, so I don't really restrict myself.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
How many hours you spending the week painting.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
Funny enough, over the last two weeks with trying to
work out this social I haven't actually I haven't actually
got too much time up on the paintbrush. But I
promised myself because of all that that I'll put in
a lot more. But I like to spend, you know,
a few hours every night painting.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Here. Your family pleased with the person that ye walked
out the gates?
Speaker 3 (52:43):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, they and you know what, like I'm
in they used to come and visit me and like
I'd get a lot of wrap from the offices like
on their way in, and also inmates to my parents
and everything. I guess, you know, for what it was,
they had to find some way to find a way
to be proud of you.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Well, when I was talking to you on the phone
the other other day, I heard your mum in the back. Yeah. Yeah,
she sounds like a bit of a character.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
She's a character, all right, Yeah, she's the best man.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Well, yeah, I appreciate you coming on here, and we
both talked about the messaging that we wanted to get across,
and that was very much about a different way of
doing the prison system. Yeah, but yeah, we this podcast.
We'd love stories of redemption and turning your life around.
And yeah, I think full credit to you, and I
(53:33):
genuinely mean this. So I hope, because it's not long
that you've been out, I hope you can stay on
the stay on the journey. Yeah, and yeah, enjoy your life.
It's better on the outside percent.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
I just want to say too, So if any inmates,
for anyone, if they're getting out and they're struggling, you
can you can send me a message on or TikTok
whatever and I'll do whatever I can to help you.
If you need some advice or someone to talk to her.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
I think that's a good idea. Again, someone someone that's experienced.
And yeah, I've spoken to people without giving up names
that have known you and said that you're hitting in
the right direction.
Speaker 3 (54:14):
So yeah, it's been good and I've had the support
to go with it, and it's kind OF's a good feeling.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
To get that support, I had to prove myself too,
So you know, I didn't just come from nowhere. So well, sorry,
there's one that I just want to please, a bit
of a carne. She's left the corrections now, but she
used to go above and beyond for the boys as well.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
So now again, these are people who are making making
the difference, like a good corrective services officer if they're
just helping one person in there, yeah great, and yeah,
I'm sure wind it back. I don't know, six years
ago when you first started in super Max, I didn't think.
I don't think you would have been thinking I'm going
to sit here with a detective inspector from a gang
(55:00):
squad talking about corrective services officers that are.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, been great to be I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
No, I appreciate your making the effort. So all the
best for the future.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
And just add if people want to find out more
about what went on in the Quarie Correctional Center of
the podcast episode Breaking Badness, it goes in the great
detail the type of thing that Adam has been talking
about and really give you a sense of what goes
on in that prison.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
All right, thank you, Thanks you guys,
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