Posting from Inside

Episode Transcript
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Mike Rugnetta (00:10):
Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a
podcast for and about theInternet. I'm your host, Mike
Rugnetta. This intro was writtenon Monday, 12/15/2025 at 09:06PM
eastern, and we have aremarkable show for you this
week. Recently, Neverpost hadthe opportunity to introduce the
folks at the tech podcast killswitch hosted by journalist

(00:34):
Dexter Thomas to Jeremy Busby, awriter, journalist, and activist
who has served over twenty fiveyears of a seventy five year
sentence at a maximum securityfacility in Beaumont, Texas. In
this episode, we've included theentirety of Dexter's
conversation with Jeremy aboutthe work Jeremy's done

(00:56):
advocating for both prisonersand prison guards using his
contraband mobile phone largelyfrom solitary confinement.
It is an incredible conversationthat we're really happy to have
had a small part in coproducing. Right now, we're
gonna take a quick break. You'regonna listen to some ads unless

(01:18):
you're on the member feed. Andwhen we return, we're gonna talk
about a few of the things thathave happened since the last
time you heard from us. Sweetdreams are made of this.
Who am I to disagree? I travelthe world in the seven seas.
Everybody's looking for fourstories this week. Zillow has
removed climate risk scores frommore than a million listings

(01:42):
according to the New York Times.The online real estate
aggregator previously displayedinformation about property's
susceptibility to fire, flood,heat, wind, and air quality
disaster, but no longer.
After complaints from theCalifornia regional multiple
listing service from whichZillow aggregates data
properties for sale. Agents hadalso noted that the ratings were

(02:05):
hurting sales as perhaps theyshould. But what do I know?
Zillow will continue to link tosources of the data, namely
First Street, a climate andfinancial risk modeling start
up. And insurers will likelycontinue to use their data when
considering coverage, but scoreswill no longer be displayed

(02:26):
directly on listings.
Young men hate gambling. Thisaccording to Pew Research's
surprising findings for 2025.Quote, forty three percent of US
adults say legal sports bettingis a bad thing for society.
Continuing, one of the biggestshifts in attitudes has occurred

(02:47):
among men 30. In this group,forty seven percent say legal
sports betting is a bad thingfor society, an increase from
22% in 2022.
Americans aren't buyingsmartphones as often as they

(03:08):
used to. In 2016, Americanswould get a new phone every two
years. These days, about everytwo and a half. The Federal
Reserve warns that an extendedtimeline for upgraded technology
could mean productivity losses.And when it comes to
institutional upgrades atschools or businesses, shifted
investment patterns that couldharm the economy as if anyone

(03:28):
looking contentedly at theiriPhone 14 gives a shit.

TikTok (03:31):
Oh, no.

Disney, in our last story today, has struck a
surprising deal with OpenAI tobring its IP into Sora, their
video generation model.According to a press release
quote, Sora will be able togenerate short user prompted
social videos that can be viewedand shared by fans, drawing on
more than 200 Disney, Marvel,Pixar, and Star Wars characters.

(03:58):
And a selection of these faninspired Sora short form videos
will be available to stream onDisney plus, end quote. Disney
CEO Bob Iger said, bringingtogether Disney's iconic stories
and characters with OpenAI'sgroundbreaking technology puts
imagination and creativitydirectly into the hands of
Disney fans in ways we've neverseen before, giving them richer

(04:19):
and more personal ways toconnect with the Disney
characters and stories theylove. A surprising thing to hear
from a company whose copyrightstance up until this point could
best be summed up as hands offthe mouse punks.

TikTok (04:30):
Oh, no.

For more on this surprising partnership, Hans
talked with Michael Weinberg,the executive director of the
Engelberg Center on InnovationLaw and Policy at NYU Law.

Hans Buetow (04:43):
Thanks, Mike. Michael, so glad to have caught
you. Where where am I catchingyou?
Where are
you right now?

Michael Weinberg (04:49):
I am currently in Berlin, Germany.

On the road, but, like, this is critical. Let's
figure this out together.

Let's figure it out.

Okay. This surprising ass three year deal
in which, as far as I can tell,OpenAI gets 200 Disney
characters to put into their AIvideo engine, and Disney gets
the opportunity to pay OpenAI$1,000,000,000 as an investment,
plus a promise from OpenAI thatthe character voices won't be

(05:19):
used. And don't worry, kids areforbidden by OpenAI from using
Sora, so no kids allowed in thisDisney product. So my first
question is, are we in theliteral upside down? Like,
understanding of copyright lawis that, like, 80% of modern
copyright law is in service ofkeeping Disney characters out of
the grimy hands of a greedypublic.

(05:40):
The reason there is so little inthe public domain is them
wanting to control Mickey. So,like, is this a reversal?

It certainly is a change. They are in the
business of no when it comes tousing their intellectual
property, their characters,their shows, their anything. And
so, yes, this was a this was asuper surprise to see Disney,
which basically defines pullingthings back to be kind of
opening things up potentially alittle bit unclear. Maybe

(06:07):
they're just not doing anything.We don't know.

We know very little. We have this one press
release and not a lot otherinformation. So since we don't
have a lot of answers right now,let's outline some of the
questions that you, as acopyright expert, have when you
read this announcement and youhear the details of it.

I have so many I have so many questions, none
of which are gonna be answeredin the short term. Some of which
will be answered when they rollout the terms and service, and
some of them will be answeredwith them in the month
afterwards when people do alltheir crazy stuff. But Yeah.
Lots of questions. But the firstone is is kind of a meta
question.
Right? Like, whatever Disney isdoing here, they are not saying
do whatever you want withwhatever characters we're we're

(06:45):
putting in here. What safeguardshave they written in? Where are
their bright lines? And whereare their bright lines in the
agreement with OpenAI?
Right? There's some sort ofcontract. What are their bright
lines gonna be in the useragreement? And then what are the
technical systems they'reputting in place to enforce
those bright lines? We've allseen the Internet take take

(07:06):
these kinds of rules and belike, thank you for these rules.
I'm gonna go in every possibledirection that no one who was
cutting the deal anticipated.Disney knows that. Right? That's
not a mystery. That's not a athing that people don't
understand.
And so what are theircontingency plans? What are they
doing? Even if they're gonna beusing this as a learning
experience, to get better atunderstanding what's coming out

(07:30):
of these AI models, what arethey gonna do when the first
weird things start coming out?What are they gonna because
you're gonna get a lot oftraffic if you are the first
person who has some, un Disneyapproved activities happening
with Disney characters

That's right. Coming out There's

a huge incentive for people to be
working on it.

So then what happens? Right? Are there things
in place in this agreement?

Yeah. If there are, who is in charge of of
doing something about it? Imean, what can you do? Once the
video exists, then it exists.And so if it's pulled out and
it's floating around theInternet, well, okay, OpenAI can
shut down that person's account.
If they wanted to go kind ofnuts, they could potentially sue
the user for violating the termsand conditions. That seems like

(08:12):
a bad idea. We have had welearned about that. Yeah. Disney
could do the same thing.
I assume Disney is not excitedabout that prospect. And so do
they just eat the rep what theysee as reputational damage when
the first weird things come outand just say this is the cost of
doing business? Yeah. And ifthat's the case, why this time?
Right?
There have been rounds androunds of technologies where

(08:34):
there's been sort of, you know,user generated content. Right?
People fan fiction, all thesethings Right. Where there's been
an Internet community built uparound properties that they
love, characters they love,stories they love, and Disney's
reaction historically has beenno. What is it about generative
AI that caused someone at Disneyto say, well, maybe this time,

(08:58):
why not?
What could possibly go wrong?

What happens when we start to see the first user
generated things to come out?What happens with outputs? Like,
when people start making Disneythings, who owns those things?

Yeah. So here's one of the the kind of
the crazy things about thesegenerative AI models that that
people I think we're justbeginning to kind of wrap our
minds around. When you use amodel to create something, to to
generate an output, in The US,no one owns the copyright in
that output. So you as theprompter have no copyright

(09:33):
interest in the output. Now,doesn't mean it's totally free
of copyright.
Right? If you, you know,whatever. If you if you have
Darth Vader in your output, youdon't own any copyright on
whatever you've created.

Okay.

But Disney still owns the copyright of
Darth Vader. It doesn't eraseexisting copyright, but there's
no new copyright. And so this,like, new fan video exists in
the public domain. And sothere's this very weird right
situation where if you if youwrote fanfic or you made a a

(10:05):
video and uploaded it toYouTube, right, you would own
the copyright in the video. Youwould own the copyright in the,
you know, the the fanfic writingthat you did, and Disney would
own the copyright in thecharacters.
And so there'd be some kind oftension between, you know, the
two of you. In this case, atleast legally, there's no real
tension. You own nothing. Disneyowns something. Now there are

(10:28):
non legal reasons that Disneymight want might wanna, you
know, work something out withyou before they feature it on
Disney plus or whatever.
But the legal posture is veryweird and very different.

Do you think this is
gonna affect the terms ofservice of using Sora and
OpenAI?

I mean, it may. I you know, on some level,
I assume that I I would expectthat there's gonna be some kind
of path that if you use SOAR andOpenAI and use Disney
characters, you are explicitlygiving Disney rights to do some
number of things. Even if youdon't have any rights to give

(11:04):
them, Disney's lawyers areconservative. They're gonna make
sure there's an additional layerof the agreement there. And so
this is another thing that wedon't know.

Mhmm.

Right? We don't know what you are giving
to Disney in return for beingable to incorporate their
characters into whatever yougenerate.

What is gonna be your first prompt that you're
gonna put into Sora?

I don't mean, you know, like, I just wanna you
really gotta you, like, lookdown the list of the characters
and find the deepest cut andthen the weirdest thing and
really kind of go nuts. I mean,the beauty of this, the beauty
of the Internet, when we'restill thinking about the
positive parts of the Internet,is there's gonna be a lot of
people who stress test us betterthan I would. So I can just
kinda sit back and watch whathappens for a while. I don't
have to drive the train. I canjust watch it go by.

It's gonna be fascinating to see what happens
when Disney shuts down with thefull force that Disney comes at
something, something theInternet has fallen in love
with.

Totally. I mean, this is this is going to
be I mean, we see this we seethis regularly with things on
YouTube. Right? Where there's acommunity that is built up,
people love it. You know, Disneyhas has no real experience with
the fan community in this way.
And if Disney starts changingits position, it's gonna take

(12:21):
time for everyone to renormalizearound it. And a thing that you
see sometimes in these fancommunities is a sense of
exploitation. Right?

Mhmm.

We are generating all these things.
We're generating the energy.We're generating the new ideas.
We have this new stuff. Disney,you swoop in and you take what
you want, and then you say no toother things.
Yeah. And that could be a momentfor people to really kind of
reevaluate how they think aboutthe fairness of that
relationship and how Disney isas a steward of what is a shared
cultural property in a lot ofways.

Well, Michael Weinberg, in terms of fandoms,
I'm a fan of yours. And I reallyappreciate you popping in from
Berlin emergency style to helpus understand what to look for
as this thing develops. Sothanks so much for joining us.
Thank you. Alright, Mike.
Back to you.

Alright. That's the news we have for you this
week. In this episode, DexterThomas from Killswitch talks
with Jeremy Busby about histenuous connection to the
outside world via the internetfrom prison. Dexter, thank you

(13:45):
so much for joining us. We'rehuge fans of yours and of the
show, so it's great to have youon Neverpost.

Dexter Thomas (13:52):
Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me
on here. This is amazing.

We're gonna hear a Killswitch episode,
essentially, as a Neverpostepisode. Just so folks sort of
like know what they're about tohear and have some context, I
just wanna ask you a few, like,really broad questions both
about yourself and about thestory that we're about to hear.
Sure. Because you mentioned inwhat we're about to hear that

(14:15):
you're a journalist, you'vereported on prisons in the past,
you've reported on the Internetin the past. So I'm just curious
like, what has that work beenfor you and how did it lead you
eventually to Killswitch?

Yeah. Killswitch, the podcast we work on now, is
basically a podcast about livingin the future and how the future
has arrived. Nobody wants it. Itsucks. But how did we get here,
and is there anything we can doabout it?
So the back end of that is thatI used to work at Vice, and a

(14:50):
lot of my reporting was broadlyspeaking, it was like culture
reporting. So, you know, I'd bein China hanging out with
rappers. I'd be in South Africatalking to people about
elections. I'd be in Ohiotalking about opioid epidemics.
So for me, all of that isculture.
And increasingly, you know, alot so much culture is online

(15:11):
where even saying that is kindof redundant, like saying online
culture, like, of course,everybody's online. Who doesn't
have a phone? For me, I'vealways been really interested in
technology. You know, I'm one ofthose people who, like, I daily
drive Linux. If you don't knowwhat that means, good.
Your life is you're living ahealthy, normal adjusted life. I
don't recommend that as a lifechoice for anybody.

Not a rabbit hole to fall into. Just stay away
from the edge of that one. Yeah.

Yeah. It's fine. You you don't you don't need to
do that to yourself. But I'mjust really interested in how
people use technology to dounexpected things. And
Killswitch, we were really clearthat, alright, this isn't just
gonna be like iPhone reviews.
This is gonna be what doestechnology mean in every part of
your life for everybody. And Imean, and this is actually the

(15:58):
second episode we've done aboutwhat we're gonna talk about
about prisons, and people whowere incarcerated also use
technology whether they'resupposed to or not.

Yeah. What you mentioned, you know, people
doing strange things withtechnology, but you also do a
lot of stories about technologyappearing or unexpected pieces
of technology appearing in maybewhat for a lot of people are
unexpected places.

Yeah.

And that's actually the next thing I wanted
to ask was, you mentioned in thestory previous reporting that
you did about tablets in prison.And I was wondering if you could
talk a little bit about whatthat was.

Yeah. So that was actually a colleague of mine,
Gabby Kaplan, who we interviewedabout this, and basically, I
talked to her about the factthat there have been tablets. I
mean, just think of very, verycheap, not very well equipped
iPads that are available forpurchase

Of course.

In some prisons. Right? In some prisons and in
some jails, and they cost abunch of money, but you could
pay money to, for example, senda message to the outside world
and receive a message, you know,with their mom on the outside
Yeah. Or their kids on theoutside. And then all of a
sudden that's shut down with noreal explanation.

(17:15):
And if you look at it, this iskind of like a consumer
technology story, which is like,yo, you bought this product and
then the company disabled themain feature. But then also,
what does it mean when you'vegot a population of people who
because the jails, you know, andthe prisons keep going on
lockdown, which means thatyou're not able to leave your

(17:35):
cell. These people have to comehome at some point. Yeah. They
do ten years in a completelydifferent society, a very
violent and dangerous society,and they come back outside and
they haven't spoken to anybody,do you think they're going to be
able to reintegrate into societyvery well?
It's gonna be very difficult forthem. So this is a safety issue
even for the people on theoutside, really.

Yeah. It's a consumer technology issue that
has a lot of ripple effects.

Yes. Yes.

So we heard this story and we had just to provide
some background for theaudience, Neverpost has an open
line of communication. We goback and forth with the Freedom
of the Press Foundation. Andthey had actually mentioned to
us, they were like, hey, we knowthis guy, Jeremy Busby. Would
you be interested in talking tohim? He's a journalist that is

(18:23):
incarcerated on a seventy fiveyear sentence.
And we were like, we would loveto hear what conversation Jeremy
would have with Dexter, which issort of how how we ended up
doing like 2% of co productionfor this. Much more than that.
I'm so excited for everybody tohear it. So this is what

(18:45):
everybody is about to hear. It'sthis conversation between you
and Jeremy who has alreadyserved is it twenty five years?

I think in about there. Yeah.

Yeah. And while being incarcerated during this
time, he's become a journalist,which he's really only been able
to do because of what iseffectively an illicit Internet
connection that he has inprison. And I was wondering if
you could just like paint alittle bit of a picture for us

(19:18):
about what what internet accesstends to look like in prison,
and just maybe the smallestlittle teaser about how it's
different for Jeremy or or howhe fits into that.

Yeah. Well, the funny thing is Internet access
in prison has changed a lot. Youknow, one of the things that we
don't talk about in thisparticular episode is what
people call prison talk as inlike TikTok and prison talk. So,
you know, you got like booktalk, which is book, you know,
people making TikToks aboutbooks.

The sort of subgenre marker.

Yeah. Exactly. There's this prison talk, which
is all over the place, but a lotof people know it as somebody
will have a phone on the inside,which again, they're not
supposed to do this, but theymake it inside anyway. And
people are doing all the thingsthat you would expect somebody
to do on TikTok normally.There's people doing dance

(20:16):
challenges.
There's people cooking is reallycommon, people showing how they
cook a ramen, make burritos,make anything. But then also
talking about conditions on theinside. What is more unique
though is what Jeremy is doing,which is actually functioning as
he's he's just a journalist.Realistically speaking, he and I

(20:40):
are colleagues. We'recolleagues, and he's just doing
it under much much moredifficult conditions than I've
ever had to deal with.
But he also has a degree ofaccess that I could never have.
Listen, I've tried. I have I'vegone through all of the proper
outlets. I've done the thingswhere you ask the warden, where

(21:04):
you write an email, where youmake phone calls and you say,
hey, we would like to report onthis, we'd like to interview
this person and it's oh, hey,this isn't a good time, hey,
we're short staffed, hey, we'rebusy, hey, just no.

Yeah, I'm sure.

What Jeremy is able to do, and I really want
people to understand this, someof the things that Jeremy has
exposed and some of the thingsthat Jeremy has genuinely
changed about the inside and forpeople, not only himself, but
other people who are in thesystem, including the guards,
potentially improving the livesof the guards, not just people

(21:40):
who are incarcerated. These arethings that I could never do. If
you're listening to this, morethan likely you could never do.

And I mean, this comes through in the in the
story, but like, it really seemslike he's got a force of will
that is unparalleled. Mhmm. Heis doing things in just
unthinkable conditions that likeare unbelievable. It's
unbelievable to hear what hepulls off.

Yeah. There are a couple moments. It gets super
real super quick because justthe conditions you were made
aware of it a couple of times.This what it's like when you
communicate with somebody who'slocked up, is you're constantly
being interrupted and you'reconstantly being reminded that,

(22:32):
for me, this is just a this is aphone call, But for them, this
is much more dire than that.

Yeah. Alright. Well, I'm excited for everybody
to hear this conversation.

Same. So let's

Yeah.
Let's let's stop keeping themfrom it. Yeah.

Jeremy Busby (22:54):
The first time I've seen social media, I was at
the wind unit in Huntsville,Texas. I think it's like around
2011.

Jeremy Busby is 48 years old. We talked back in
October about the Internet andsocial media, but what's
different about this interviewis that Jeremy's calling me from
a prison in Huntsville, Texas.Jeremy's been in prison since
1999. Back then, the internetwas a different place.

I didn't know anything about Facebook or
Twitter, but I knew aboutMyspace. Because when I was a
free society, Myspace was justbecoming a thing. So I knew
about that.

Jeremy didn't really have any contact with
social media until the earlytwenty tens. A few years after
Facebook was already popular.

A friend of mine had a contraband cell phone. He
was fresh from the free society.He had just come to prison. And
so this was his whole entirelivelihood, social media. It was
all about social media.

Since Jeremy's been locked up, social media has
gone through a few differentphases. It went from this weird
hobby that college kids andcomputer nerds were into, to
this new hopeful way to spreaddemocracy, to now a more
pessimistic view of this thingthat gives us short attention
spans, causes addictivebehavior, and makes politics
more polarized. But in prison,the situation is a little

(24:12):
different.

In 2020, when the pandemic hit, Texas prison
system had no protocol on how todeal with the COVID nineteen
pandemic. My cellmate had twocell phones. He was like, man,
listen. You can use anotherphone. He's just sitting right
there, man.
I pay the bill. You can use itif you wanna use it. And so,

(24:34):
finally, man, I grabbed thephone, and the first thing I did
is I went to YouTube, and Igoogled how do you set up a
Facebook page. So I learnedFacebook. I learned Instagram.
I learned Twitter. I learned howto edit videos. I learned how to
make slides. I learned how toget the message out on
Instagram, how to get themessage out on YouTube. And

(24:57):
that's how me and Trey end up onlive.

In 2020, during the peak of the COVID nineteen
pandemic, Jeremy went live onInstagram with a rapper named
Trey the truth to talk about theconditions inside the Texas
state prison. That put a lotmore eyes on what was happening
in there.

TikTok (25:12):
What unit is can't tell you the unit, bro, but I can
tell you I'm in Texas. It'sgetting serious down here, man.
Brother, you know, they dyingfrom this corona, man. You said
they cut the phones off. They'renot dangling y'all car home?
No. They got everything rackedup, man. They got I think it's,
like, 35 units on lockdown. Foreverybody on here, what's the

(25:35):
what's the best way for us todo? We need to write Huntsville.
We need to call Huntsville.

Social media is giving us unfiltered access into
prisons, something that we'dnever had before. But we may not
have it for much longer.

You gotta look at prison like in the same context
as you look at the slavery. Notonly do these people try to
control what goes out theprison, they try to control what
comes into the prison.

Before we get into Jeremy's experiences with
social media, we should probablydo some backstory. The reason
that Jeremy's in prison startswhen he was 21 years old. It was
10/01/1998 at a motel in DallasCounty. Here's how Jeremy
explains it.

I pulled up in a motel about four or 05:00 in the
morning. There was a couple ofguys out in the motel selling
drugs, and so they tried to sellme some drugs. And so we got
into an argument in the middleof the parking lot because they
was persistent. The argumentturned into threats, he took his
shirt off like he was gonna tryto assault me or whatever the
case may be. His friend tried tohold him back.

(27:04):
He wasn't able to. And so whenhe ran towards me, I pulled a
gun. I shot him one time, andthat was in 1998 and that
resulted in me getting a seventyfive year prison sentence for
murder.

Jeremy is now on his twenty seventh year of a
seventy five year sentence.

My mistake was I left the scene of the crime.
When it happened, I panicked andI fled. And that was the biggest
mistake that I could have madebecause when they came down to
my trial, that's pretty muchwhat the DA relied upon was the
fact that, you know, if misterBusby really felt like that this
theft defense, why he didn'tjust wait for the police to
come, why did he flee and all ofthat, how the kid is from the

(27:44):
hood. And, you know, we don'treally deal with the police too
much when something like thathappen. It's just a natural
reaction to flee.
But nevertheless, instead ofcrying out with spilled milk, I
decided to come to prison andidentify the areas where I went
wrong that possibly led me tocome into prison for the
sentence and then making all ofthe necessary steps that I

(28:04):
needed to make to ensure thatthis doesn't ever happen to me
again. Right? Which includes myproblem solving skills, my
conflict resolution skills, mycoping mechanisms, all of these
things that I wasn't taughtduring my youth.

Pretty soon after Jeremy arrived in prison, he
realized that he had somethingthat the other incarcerated men
around him didn't have.

When I first got to prison, one of the things
that I noticed despite the factthat I had dropped out of school
in the eighth grade, I couldread and write and comprehend
better than the majority of thepeople that was in Texas prison.
And so as a result of that, Ibecame like a person that would
help people write letters totheir families. I was going down

(28:47):
to the La La Berry to helppeople because I'm working on my
own personal case. But as I waslearning, I'm helping them
interpret and learn the law. Andthen finally, I got in contact
with an attorney named DunyaWitherspoon.
Poon. We became real goodfriends. And she started writing
me because she had heard aboutmy case and she wanted to help
me out. And so all of theseletters that I was writing to

(29:08):
her, she eventually say, Jeremy,listen. I wanna take some of
these letters and start sendingthem to the newspaper because
you're a real good writer andthe stuff that you're writing me
is about prisons.
And a lot of people on theoutside don't understand
everything that you understandand you do such a good job
articulating this.

So with Danya's encouragement, Jeremy began the
next phase of his life as ajournalist, just one who's
reporting from inside theprison. In general, even if a
journalist like me tries to goand observe things, prison
officials can be veryrestrictive of what you can do.
So having a journalist on theinside like Jeremy means the
people in the outside world canget a more unfiltered look at a

(29:49):
world that was almost invisibleto most of us before.

They already have this tedious tedious process of
of open records act like aperson like you wanted to file
to get something on me. They'llput you through so much stuff to
try to get it, and then youmight not even get it. And then
they might repack whatever youget and all of that crap. And so
it's all a universal game ofcensorship.

Jeremy knew that he could provide information to
people on the outside. He justdidn't know if anyone would care
what he was saying. It turnedout, some people did.

Back in, 2003, I wrote an article for the San
Francisco Review about the heatin Texas prison system and how
we don't have any air conditionhere. They don't give us any
type of relief as far as, like,cold water or any type of cold
showers or anything like that tonegate the extensive heat in the
prison system. Of course,everyone knows detectives has

(30:47):
very hot summers. And most ofthese structures that we have
was built in the mid eighteenhundreds, early nineteen
hundreds. They're all out ofbrick and steel, and they don't
have any type of modernventilation or anything of that
nature.
And so if you don't have familymembers on the outside that can
send you money to buy a t shirtor buy a pair of gym shorts or

(31:10):
buy a pair of tennis shoes, thenyou gotta wear your state
uniform the whole entire time.It makes you even hotter.
There's been temperaturesrecorded inside of the cell
block inside of these buildingssometimes that have exceeded
over a 165 degrees in certainplaces. In order to combat the
heat, this is what I used tohave to do. I go in my cell, and

(31:33):
I have to put, like, maybe acouple of gallons of water on
the floor.
And I had to strip all the waydown to my boxer shorts, and I
had to lay in that water. Andyou have to repeat that process
over and over and over and overagain just to maintain a body
temperature that prohibits youfrom having a heat stroke. And

(31:54):
you have some guys that are,like, put their shirts in the
water, they and wear their shirtwhile it's wet because we don't
have a shower that you can justgo walk and get into the shower.
It's like one shower per dayroom. I think we was averaging
something close to, like, ten tofifteen heat related deaths
every single summer in Texasprison.

Oh my gosh.

It felt like the numbers can be a lot more
because they'll come back afterthe autopsy or whatever and say,
this guy died from complicationsof diabetes or he died from
complications of hypertension.But the truth of the matter is
there was the heat thattriggered all of it and it was
the heat related illness thatcaused death. And so I had wrote
this long article to the SanFrancisco Bayview, and I

(32:40):
basically said, listen. There'snothing for these people to
bring down coolers and fill themup with ice every morning and
allow us to be able to drinkcold water throughout the day.
And that could possibly saveone, two, maybe ten, maybe a
hundred lives.
Right? When I wrote that, somedays later, they came with a
whole big cart full of yellowigloo coolers that was filled up

(33:01):
with ice, and they put one onevery single set of block.

Wow. That immediate.

Yeah. That immediately. And then my editor
at the time was Mary Ratcliffeat the San Francisco Bayview,
and she told me that theypolitely sent her a letter
asking her if she can retract myarticle because they had solved
the problem.

We reached out to the Texas Department of Criminal
Justice about Jeremy saying thatthey'd asked for his article to
be retracted. They declined tocomment. After Jeremy wrote his
article on the heat insideprisons, he's also reported on
overdoses and suicide in prison,experiencing executions
happening near his cell, andwhat happens when the prison
goes on lockdown. His worksappeared in places that

(33:42):
specialize in reporting onprisons like the Marshall
Project, but it's also been inpublications that the general
public reads, like SlateMagazine or the Columbia
Journalism Review. But gettingthose articles out isn't always
easy.

As an incarcerated journalist, I have this hill
that I have to climb with theselegacy media outlets. I have to
cross all of my t's. I have todot all of my i's. I damn near
have to put them in contact withthe warden for the warden to
say, yeah. Everything thatJeremy wrote is legit.

(34:16):
And so a lot of times, some ofthe stuff that the people write
being incarcerated, they writeto these media outlets, that
stuff never gets to the pressbecause some editor somewhere
saying, hey, man. I can't findwhat we can substantiate this. I
don't know if this really isgoing on or whatever the case
may be. So it ends up insomebody's shredder. Now as you

(34:38):
know from being on the outsidein journalism, when you got
social media, you can skip thewhole entire legacy media outlet
process.
You have a a unobstructed avenueto put the information out that
you wanna put out.

The ability to communicate directly with the
outside world is crucial forJeremy. But how does he do it?
So there are two main ways thatincarcerated people can
communicate through socialmedia. The first one is directly
through a contraband cell phone.These are against the rules, but
they make their way into prisonsall the time.
The other way is to call orwrite to someone who's on the

(35:15):
outside and have them post onyour behalf. Jeremy's done both.
Either way, social media givesJeremy a way to show his
perspective from prison directlywithout being filtered through
prison officials or waiting fora local media outlet who
believes his reporting or hopingthat some outside reporter would
take interest and cover it forhim. The best example of this is
when COVID hit. His cellmate hada contraband cell phone, and so

(35:38):
Jeremy was able to directlybroadcast what was actually
happening and get immediateresponses to help the
incarcerated people around him.

I'm researching this COVID nineteen coronavirus
and all of the precautions thatwe need in order to safeguard
ourselves from contracting it.One of the main two things that
they ask you to do, well, it'sreally three things. They ask
you to social distance, to wearour n 95 mask, and to properly
sanitize your hands. Right? SoTexas prison system, what they

(36:09):
did, they cut up a bunch ofsheets and put little springs on
the side of the sheets, and theywas issuing those sheets out to
us.
It's like an n 95 mask. It's acut up sheet.

It's bed sheets. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. It's bed sheets. Secondly, they wasn't
passing out any type ofsanitation chemicals, like hand
sanitizer or anything of thatnature. And then thirdly, it was
impossible for us to socialdistance because they got us
locked in a cell with anotherperson. So my reporting on all
of that and social media got usthe n 95 mask.
They got us the bleach. Theystarted passing us real food out

(36:44):
for our nutrition like bananasand apples and grilled milk.

Again, we asked the Texas Department of Criminal
Justice about this and theydeclined to comment. Ask most
people what they think aboutsocial media and they'll tell
you that there's good parts, butalso a lot of bad parts. Echo
chambers, misinformation, allthat. Jeremy's aware of this
stuff, but he's also aware thatsocial media is how a lot of
people get their news. For him,that's an opportunity to speak,

(37:12):
but also to learn.

One of the things that social media did for me is
that when I even had an idea ofan article or if I wrote the
article out itself, alldifferent type of people will
start sending me additionalinformation to either support or
negate or to advance the topicmatters that I found
interesting. Right? And what Irealized about social media is

(37:36):
that I can reach people allaround the world just opposed
to, like, if I write for a localpublication, I might reach
people right here in Texas. If Iwrite for a national
publication, I might get 30 to35% of the nation. But when I
post something on social media,I can circulate that all over
the world and even translate itinto all different type of

(37:56):
languages.
I was talking to people as faraway as Switzerland about the
situation in Texas prison. Iknow now that I don't
necessarily have to put one ofmy articles in a publication. I
can just drop it in the threadon egg, and it'd have the same
value that it would have if Ihad dropped it in competition
like the Imperial.

Once Jeremy found a way to use social media, he
suddenly had access to a wholeworld that he didn't before. But
that's starting to change. Cellphones have always been
contraband, but now prisonsacross the country are really
cracking down on social mediaaccess. We'll get into how and
why after the break.

One of the first things that they told me when I
became a journalist in prison,the warden called me up, and he
talked to me about those twofence that surround the prison,
the perimeter fence with thebarbed wire. And he asked me, he
said, Buster, why do you thinkwe got those two fence out there
with the barbed wire? And Isaid, well, that's to keep
people from escaping. He said,no. That's the wrong answer.

(39:08):
We're not worried about anybodyescaping. That's to keep the
public out of here. And when youwrite what you write and give
these people entry to come intomy prison, you're bringing them
over my damn fence, and I don'tlike that. That's what the
warden told me. And so thesocial media ban prohibits

(39:29):
people from bringing the generalpublic over the fence.

In 2016, the state of Texas where Jeremy's
incarcerated added a brand newrule to the state's prison
handbook. The rule essentiallybanned incarcerated people from
having any personal social mediapages run-in their name, meaning
that no one outside of prison issupposed to even run an account
on Jeremy's behalf. Similar banshave also been put in places in

(39:55):
other states like Alabama andIowa. And last year, the US
Federal Bureau of Prisonsproposed a rule like the one in
Texas, but that would applyacross the entire federal prison
system. If an incarceratedperson was found to have a
social media account, thatviolation would be treated as a
high severity level offense.
That's the same category that'sapplied to things like fighting
in prison.

That barrier that the prison administration had to
continue the status quo nolonger exist for them. And so
therefore, they gotta dowhatever they gotta do to put
that back in place. So they gottheir social media bans.

Back in 2016, when the Texas Department of
Criminal Justice put theirsocial media ban in place, they
told Vice News that, quote,offenders have used social media
accounts to sell items over theInternet based on the notoriety
of their crime, harass victimsor victims' families, and
continue their criminalactivity. The department went on
to say that they would, quote,take all of the necessary steps

(40:51):
to prevent that from happening.We contacted them to ask whether
that's still the reason for theban today. They declined to
comment. But, again, there'sanother side of this.
If we wanna talk about criminalactivity, we have to acknowledge
that social media is exposingallegedly unlawful activity that
the outside world should knowabout.

Now you can take a picture or shoot a video about
what's going on here at theprison system and put that on
Facebook or Instagram, and it'sgonna go viral, and it's gonna
cost people their jobs. So thatscares the hell out of prison
officials. It scares the hellout of them. Right? Because now,
like, what happened with me, theNo Way Out documentary when I

(41:33):
worked with Carrie Blackingerbehind the COVID You have one
minute left.
Okay. Damn. When I went livewith Tray the Truth, I was able
to do all of that unrestrictedwithout having to wrestle with
any type of mega media outlet oranything like that. We just
dropped it. And it caused awhole bunch of backlash.

(41:53):
Let me call you back one moretime.

Okay. Phone calls in Jeremy's unit are limited to
thirty minutes, so we had toreconnect a few times during the
interview. That's why you mighthear Jeremy rush through
sentences sometimes. He's justtrying to get out as much as
possible before he gets cut off.But what he's getting at here is
important.
When word gets out aboutconditions on the inside, it can

(42:15):
make things hard for theofficials who work there. Jeremy
thinks that the bans arepartially there to stop that
from happening. But banningstuff from making rules is one
thing. The next step is thecurrent Trump administration
wants to make it physicallyimpossible to communicate
directly with the outside.

Brandon Carr now from the FCC, they're going
around trying to pass this newlaw where they can put cell
phone jammers up outside ofprivilege.

Cell phone jammers are devices that can
block cell phone signals withina certain range. These devices
in general are illegal,partially because they're
dangerous. I mean, think aboutit. If cell signals can't get
through, you can't call theparamedics or they can't find
you. So obviously, the generalpublic can't have them.
But for that same reason, ingeneral, even state and local

(43:02):
law enforcement can't legallyuse them. But recently, the FCC
is considering letting prisonsuse these jammers to block
contraband cell phone use.

They want people to think that people utilizing
these phones to organizecriminal activity. And you might
have a handful of people thatmight utilize the country band
cell phone organized criminalactivity. But from being
incarcerated almost thirtyyears, I'm a tell you that the
majority of the people thatusing country band cell phones
are trying to connect with longlost family members, loved ones,

(43:32):
childhood friends, and otherpeople like myself are utilizing
it to report on the conditionsof the prison. And then you got
third demographic of people thatjust wanna watch porn and movies
and videos and things of thatnature. Right?
There's very few people thatutilize the phone to organize
criminal activity, but theprison officials, they're that

(43:54):
the person that's incarceratedis gonna take the phone and
expose them, and so that's thereason why they're pushing this.

Despite all these attempts to block incarcerated
people's access to social media,Jeremy's been able to report out
what's going on in prison. Butwhen he has, he says he's been
retaliated against.

The nature of my career is when I write
something, it don't take verylong for them to come down and
talk to me or try to orintimidate or, you know, and all
of that. I'm public enemy numberone with these people. If you
say anything that people don'tlike, they can go look through
your files and possibly subjectyou to some type of political

(44:35):
prosecution or or file a lawsuiton you or smear your name or
come kick in your door or orlock you up and spray you with
chemical agents and all that.I've been through all of that.
But you don't have as manypeople like myself that's really
speaking out against thesepeople because they're come
after you.
Right? They're take all of yourproperty. They're gonna transfer

(44:55):
you to different units. They'regonna put you in solitary
confinement. Last year, I'vebeen transferred to four
different units.
Each time I get to the unit, I'mspending days in the cell with
no mattress, no sheets, noblankets, no basic necessities
like soap, toothpaste, anddeodorant. This is the stuff
that you go through. And so forthe majority of the people in

(45:15):
prison here, hey, man. Just putyour head down and don't say
nothing. And they don't comeafter you.
I have never took that approachbecause I understand what that
approach does to a person. Whenyou put your head down for so
many times after so many years,that becomes an intricate part
of your character and who youare. And I don't wanna live like

(45:37):
that. And so I resist. And I doit in the best of manners.
Right? I don't never writeanything ever that I don't try
to work with administrationfirst on and say, here's the
problem right here. I'm thinkingabout writing this, but if we
can solve this problem, will Iforget about writing it? It's
only when they're not interestedin solving a problem that I know

(45:57):
I can write and get the problemsolved. So as a result of that,
Jeremy Busby is public enemynumber one.
I'm the number one agitator,whatever they wanna call me,
but, you know, I I don't really,you know, I don't really call it
agitation. Right? I call it'slike good trouble, like John
Lewis called it good trouble.Right? This is good trouble.

Earlier this year, when the Columbia
Journalism Review asked Texasprison officials about Jeremy's
claims that he's beingretaliated against, they denied
it. When we asked them, theydeclined a comment. Right now,
as we record this episode,Jeremy's in solitary confinement
for what he says is a responseto his reporting. More on that

(46:40):
after the break. So hold on.
Jimmy, you're in solitary rightnow?

Yeah. I'm in solitary confinement right now.
I'm talking to you from asolitary confinement cell. My
cell is about the size of yourking-size mattress. That's the
whole size of my cell.
I got a toilet and a sink asteel combo right here. I got a
desk, and I got a metal bunkthat I lay on. And I'm confined

(47:11):
to this cell twenty four hours aday. There are no windows. I
can't tell you if it's nighttimeor daytime.
The only thing that I can see isdirectly in front of myself when
somebody walked past. It's got asolid steel door with two
plexiglass windows on the frontof it and a solid steel door
that goes all the way down tothe bottom, so I can't even

(47:32):
slide anything out of thebottom. I don't even have any
communication with anybodyexcept for the guard. So it's
mentally crippling, andeverybody understands that it's
mentally crippling because itcuts you all the way off from
human to human contact.

If you remember our episode on tablets in
prison, Jeremy says that theywere recently given one of those
state issued tablet devices thatlets them watch religious and
educational programming. Andfrom 2PM to 8PM daily, he can
pay to make phone calls if it'sto a number that has registered
to receive a call from theprison. How long you been in
there?

I've been in Sanitary confinement since June
2024.

Over a year?

Over a year. No disciplinary cases. Nothing. The
guards always ask me all thetime, hey, man. Why they got you
in here buzzed me?
And I tell them just Google me.And then they come back and say,
okay. I know why they got you inhere. Right? Then I even had a
have someone come to me say,hey, man.
Won't you just quit being ajournalist so they can let you
out of here? And I'm like, youknow, there's certain trade offs

(48:35):
that I'm just not willing tomake. Right? And these people,
they they continue to try toharass me and police and, you
know, do a lot of things thatthey do because of of my
journalism then, hey. That'sjust to hear that I'm a down.
Right? That's to hear that I'mdown. Because I didn't have very
much Dexter when I came toprison. You know, I grew up. My
mom I lost my mom when I wasfour.

(48:56):
My dad has always been adeadbeat. I dropped out of
school when I was eight, and Iwas running the streets and all
of that. And so all of themeaningful things that I was
able to obtain for myself duringmy incarceration, I'll be damned
if I'm a give that back toanybody.

You were talking about the Was somebody knocking
back there?

Hey. No. I ain't got it.

So in the middle of our interview, we were
interrupted by a guard knockingon Jeremy Seldor.

Hey. Hey. Look out. Hold on. Shut up, screaming
for a minute.
Hey, man. I wish you would quitdoing that. I'm on the
telephone. I asked you I askedyou to quit doing that, but I'm
on the telephone. You what?
I asked you to quit beating onthe door because I'm on the
telephone. You're in the rest ofmy telephone call. I asked you
that privilege. That's the fifthtime you did that today, and I

(49:46):
asked you to quit doing that. II know you didn't get that the
time.
Okay. I'm stupid. I'm sorryabout that. Now you got you got
some officers that he's sittinghere, he's shit as long as the
phone, so he just gonna come andjust beat on the door, beat on
the door, beat on the door. Butanyway, I'm sorry about that.

It's all good. It's all good, man. Who was
that? What happened just now?

That's a guard. No. He's a guard. Right? What
they do is they come by everyfive, ten, fifteen minutes and
just beat on the door with thebar thing that they got.
He done that times today. He'strying to antagonize me. He's
trying to get the reaction thathe just got to know that he's
getting up under my skin. Theydo stuff like that. And so but I

(50:31):
talked to him politely, youknow, first couple of times.
I say, hey, sir. If you don'tmind, and you come to the door,
you can see me in the door, mylight is on. I'm moving around
in my cell. Why do you feel likeyou have to beat on the door for
five minutes? He has a languagebarrier.
His English is not very good.And so he came back and did it

(50:52):
again. And I said, hey, man. Doyou understand you disturb
people's peace when you're doingall of this? But, anyway, so
here it is.
He came to work at 07:00 thismorning. It's 03:00, and this is
the fifth time that he's been tomy cell and done this crap.

Oh my gosh.

I'm sorry about that Dexter, Rick.

No. You don't got to apologize to me.

Alright.

Hearing what Jeremy has to go through just to
survive is a lot. I can'timagine what it's like to be
doing journalistic reporting.And then on top of that

We did a no kings protest real quick. So I don't
have to deny the No Kingsprotest. Right?

You know Jeremy, you organized a No Kings protest
in there?

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Jeremy. Hey, man. This
this stuff is serious, bro.
I'm a tell you how I organizeit. Okay? Because I like the
dudes that's down the road fromme, he sent me a letter and
telling me that his niece camehome and her mom and her dad had
been picked up by ice. No. Sohis niece came home from school

(51:55):
and her parents was gone.
Then I got this other guy. He'stelling me about how his mom
been working for the federalgovernment in Houston at NASA
for all of these years and thegovernment shutdown then
furloughed her. Right? So she'snot able to send any money for
his commissary and put money onhis phone. So when I got
thinking about all of this, I'mtelling all of these dudes over

(52:16):
here where I'm at, like, hey,man.
This thing that Trump got goingon is affecting all of us. And
we need to protest and stand insolidarity with the people on
our side. Okay, Jeremy, what yougot in mind? Okay. Listen.
For this Saturday, we're gonnanot accept our food. If anybody
need food, let me know. I'llsend you some food to eat, And
we're put signs on our door thatsay no food, no talk, no keys.

Wow.

We did that.

Oh my gosh.

So it was peaceful all the way up to about 08:00 at
night. They wanted the guys thatwe recruited. He's not all the
way there. And so he startedtalking like, you know, man,
damn. Just deny my food.
I'm ready to split it off. So hesaid there's, like, three alarm
fire in his cell. Right? Andthis other guy manipulated the

(53:05):
lock on his cell, and he bustout the cell and just started
ripping the TVs off the wall.But what I'm showing you is
this.
Okay. These guys the guy thatripped the TV off the wall, that
don't hurt the prison officials.Those TVs are for us. And so now
all the TVs that you'd haveripped off, people can't watch
the news or whatever it is thatthey wanna watch. You're hurting
the whole community.
It it it they just tells you themental deficiency that most

(53:28):
majority of the people couldhave and it's not mild.
According

to Jeremy, the conditions of the system only
exacerbate the problems that hesees in prison. Along with
mental illness, he says that theprison system in Texas suffers
from problems with violence,drugs, and suicides. And to him,
these problems and the socialmedia bans that they wanna put
in place, it's all related.

It always been my position that when you destroy
family bonds and make itimpossible for the families to
communicate, then that puts theperson in bad situation. And
sometimes, in order to get outof that situation because of
what's going on in prison, youhave to turn the door. My whole
thesis is, like, instead ofputting money into further

(54:14):
destroying family ties, as faras taking people's own
privileges away, and puttingthem in a position to where they
can become more depressed andbecome more mentally disturbed
to where they have to increasetheir drug usage. Let's take
that same energy, those sameresources, that same money as
let's put it towards trying torepair family bonds. Let's put

(54:35):
it towards trying to help peopleaccumulate meaningful things
like so they can receivesubstance use.
Let's put it towards likeputting people through
rehabilitation.

I'm just gonna say this as a journalist who's
reported on prisons. I wouldnever be able to bring you this
kind of insight. Jeremy's workprovides something that's really
rare. It's a look at what'sactually happening inside this
prison. But also, his work isn'tjust on behalf of the
incarcerated people.

(55:05):
There's one of your pieces thatI was reading earlier today, and
it was an article, this is forthe Chronicle. I wanna quote you
here. You said, for nearly threedecades, I've watched this
broken system break people, bothstaff and the incarcerated.
Instead of returning prisonersback to their communities a
better version of themselves,prisons return them more

(55:26):
psychologically damaged,disenfranchised, and poor than
when they entered. I've seenstaff members lose their
families, their drive tosucceed, and even with suicide,
their lives.
I think people might besurprised to hear that you're
also advocating for staffmembers, for the guards.

Yeah.

Like the person who just came by and beat on
your door.

Yeah. And that comes from my mentor is a
retired senior warden, VernonPitman. And one of the things
that Warren Pitman taught meabout is that, hey, listen,
gentlemen, we all are humanbeings, whether if you made a
mistake and you in prison or ifyou made a mistake and you
worked for the prison, becauseeverybody that worked for the
prison, they made a mistake. Thepeople that work in prison and

(56:12):
the people that are in prisonall come from the same
socioeconomic demographics. Themajority of them either made it
through high school and went tothe military and couldn't make
it.
Some of them dropped out of highschool and got their GED and
started working at a low localfast food restaurant or
something. But it's very fewpeople inside a prison that has

(56:32):
a college degree that workshere. Very few people.

I mean, it it really could be people who would
have been neighbors otherwise,and I guess they're neighbors
now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course they're neighbors.
They of course they'reneighbors.
And I'm telling y'all, let'sjust say this. The people that
work here are not the brightestpeople that you're find on
earth. So they easily manipulateit. And the same deficiencies
that I came to prison with,which is a lack of coping
skills, no conflict resolution,no constructive decision making
processes, or any of that. Thesame things that I came to

(57:03):
prison with the majority ofthese guards worked in the
prison with those samedeficiencies.

I gotta ask you this. Are you concerned about
talking to me about this?

No. No. No. No. No.
Because I talk about this everychance that I get. None of this
is any secret. These people knowwhat's going on. These people
done so much to me. There'snothing else that they can do.
I'm not worried about themkilling me physically. Right?
There's nothing else that theycan do to me for my journalism

(57:34):
that haven't already been done.

So my conversation with Jeremy had me
thinking about anotherconversation I had a few months
ago with Gabby Kaplan. She's thejournalist who's reported on the
tablets that have been issued inprisons across the country and
the federal government's effortsto limit the communication
abilities on those tablets. Ifyou haven't heard that episode
yet, definitely check it I'llleave a link in the show notes.

(57:59):
But if you look at the commentsonline about her reporting, you
might see people arguing that,well, if you're in prison,
having a tablet or social mediais a luxury. You shouldn't be
able to have that kind of luxuryperiod.
Okay. That's an opinion. But Ican read you an argument that
Jeremy Busby himself wrote in arecent article, and I'm just
gonna quote him here.Regulations that rob

(58:22):
incarcerated individuals of theability to expose cruelties and
human rights violations and holdprison officials accountable
hurt more people and cause morenegative societal consequences
than they prevent. Just askthose whose lives were saved or
drastically improved byreporting only made possible
with the use of contraband cellphones.

(58:43):
And then he closes that articlewith a request. Quote, give
journalists meaningful accessrecords. Give incarcerated
people the tools to communicatewith the outside world and
document abuses withoutcensorship and retaliation, and
I'll never use a contraband cellphone again. Or better yet,

(59:03):
don't commit those abuses atall, end quote. Special thanks
this week to the Freedom of thePress Foundation and to the
Never Post podcast whointroduced us to Jeremy and
helped make this whole episodepossible.
And thank you once again forlistening to Kill Switch. Kill

(59:25):
Switch is hosted by me, DexterThomas. It's produced by Sheena
Ozaki, Darlauk Potts, and JulianNutter. Our theme song is by me
and Kyle Murdock, and Kyle alsomixed the show. From
Kaleidoscope, our executiveproducers are Osvalashin,
Mangesh Hadigador, and KateOsborne.
From iHeart, our executiveproducers are Katrina Norville
and Nikki Itur.

Thank you for using Securus. Goodbye.

Mike Rugnetta (01:00:09):
That is the show we have for you this week. We're
gonna be back here in the mainfeed once more in 2025 and when
we are, it will be with thereturn of Never Posts Post
Mortem. That's right folks. PostMortem 2025, your favorite year
end Internet themed game showreturns. So keep an eye on your
feed that will show up at somepoint before the end of the

(01:00:33):
year.
Folks, Neverpost is currentlyhaving a sale on memberships.
Both of our higher tiers arecurrently on sale for the same
low price as our lowest tier.That's right. All levels of
membership are currentlyavailable to you for $4 a month.
All levels of membership alsoget you exactly the same thing.

(01:00:56):
So arguably, this sale makesmore sense than our normal
pricing structure. The sale ison through the end of the year
at neverpo.st, become a memberand help support your favorite
local internet podcast.Neverpost's producers are Audrey
Evans, Georgia Hampton, and themysterious, doctor first name,

(01:01:16):
last name. Our senior produceris Hans Buto. Our executive
producer is Jason Oberholzer,and the show's host, that's me,
is Mike McNetta.
Oh, hold on. I gotta go find apoem.
Will Tuttle. Bill Tuttle? Herewe go.

(01:01:48):
This is too much to carry, hethought. I've ascertained how
far our minds made up. Driftlike a crow now or a gorge or a
braid. So like slow water,depending on rain, depending on
ice declines the slope,distributing what verse gets,
what talk, whose motion, ofwhose hand, what pressure, what
tensile, what upholds. Thecenter stuck out like a sick

(01:02:11):
thumb on what the hard mapdepends, the going price
eventualities.
The entry said be careful.Scattered walls of the wrecked
city would soon come into view.To him returned, a car rests on
wet sand. Read it inside manytimes before it actually came to
pass. In the very middle ofresting, of approaching, just
being there.

(01:02:31):
Certainly, one of those thingsthat would come to pass. His
hand bends to greet you. Excerptof a map folded by Bill Tuttle.
Never Post is a production ofcharts and leisure and it's
distributed by Radiotopia.

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