The Year I Learned to Pay Attention

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Rugnetta (00:12):
Friends, hello, and welcome to Never Post, a
podcast for and about theInternet. I'm your host, Mike
Rugnetta. This intro was writtenon Tuesday, 11/18/2025 at
02:16PM eastern, and we have apugilistic show for you this
week. Meagle shares her journeytrying to rebuild her attention

(00:33):
span after a stark realizationabout her phone usage, and then
she chats with Emily Mazo andMuhammad Ali, organizers of the
conference, New Luddism,Technology and Resistance in the
Modern Workplace about regainingcontrol over the technology that
suffuses our work, our leisuretime, our lives, and also

(00:56):
machines. But right now, we'regonna take a quick break.
You're gonna listen to some adsunless you're on the member
feed. And when we return, we'regonna talk about a few of the
things that have happened sincethe last time you heard from us.
These boots were made forwalking and that's just what
they'll do. One of these days,these boots are gonna have five
stories for you this week. Vineis back ish.

(01:21):
Jack Dorsey, who you may knowfrom his facial hair and other
various questionable endeavors,is rebooting the six second
video app Vine, once purchasedand then shuddered by then
Twitter as d Vine. Thanks to theefforts of the archive team and
others, Dorsey and co developerRabble say the network will
launch with a significant backcatalog of Vines which creators

(01:45):
can issue DMCA takedowns for ifthey wish to leave them lost to
the sands of internet time.Rabble and Dorsey say they want
to recapture a nostalgic versionof the Internet and therefore
will be launching Vine AIgenerated content free and will
use external tools to verifythat that which is uploaded is
not generated. This move is atleast partially confusing given

(02:10):
that Dorsey's decentralizedsocial networking protocol,
Noster, forms the backbone ofdivine and lists on its website
AI, making Noster the best forAI development and integration
as one of its quote unquotepillars. This has led some
posters to wonder if the sitewill be AI free in order to
guarantee a clean dataset forfuture model training endeavors.

Clip (02:35):
Know. Do it.

Teen Vogue has been shuttered and will be
folded into the larger Voguebrand at publisher Conde Nast. A
surprising move from a publisherwell known for wise forward
thinking decisions concerningthe longevity of impactful and
culturally relevant mastheads.70% of the teen Vogue staff was
laid off including its editor inchief, Virsha Sharma. The two

(02:58):
decade old magazine was launchedas a fashion and celebrity
gossip spin off of Vogue Proper,only to come into its own ten or
so years ago as a hard hittingfeminist leaning and politically
engaged outlet focused on issuesimportant to young people. The
Roosevelt Institute called theclosure, quote, evidence that
corporate concentrationeliminates innovative ideas and

(03:19):
silences voices with less power,end quote.
Mhmm. Kickstarter employees areno longer on strike. After seven
months of bargaining and fortytwo days of pickets,
demonstrations, live streams,the whole nine yards, they have
won a contract with managementwhich guarantees their four day
work week and protects againstattempts to change that policy

(03:41):
down the line. They've bargainedfor an increase in the minimum
salary floor up an average of6%, as well as securing a one
time $6,000 bonus for those atthe low end of the pay scale and
more, including protectionsagainst replacing workers with
AI or full time workers withcontractors. To read more, head
to kickstarterunited.org orcheck the link in the show

(04:04):
notes.
Nice work, friends. Very proudof you all. TikTok is launching
a podcast network. The socialnetwork is partnering with
iHeartMedia and among theirendeavors is a network of quote
up to 25 new podcasts hosted byTikTok creators as well as a

(04:27):
national broadcast and digitalradio channel, and a series of
live event integrationsaccording to an iHeart press
release. IHeart will be buildingnew production facilities in LA,
New York, and Atlanta to supportthe project, and we'll partner
with broadcast radio to featurecreators as well as songs made
popular on the short form videoapp.
Sure. Why not? I guess. Andfinally, sticking with TikTok,

(04:56):
the shop, the TikTok shop is nowthe size of eBay. According to
Wired, quote, analytics fromfirm Echotick estimates TikTok
shop sold $19,000,000,000 worthof products globally from July
through September.
The United States, its largestmarket, accounted for
4,000,000,000 to 4,500,000,000.0in sales, an increase of about

(05:19):
125% compared to the 2025. Toput those numbers in
perspective, eBay saw$20,100,000,000 in total sales
in the last quarter, end quote.In show news this week, catch me

(05:43):
on this week's episode of NormalGossip where I share a story
about a rich guy that eats toomuch sauce before dishing about
vampires in the nineties, athing which I have direct
personal experience about. Ifyou wanna know more about that,
listen to Normal Gossip. It's aride.
It was really great to hang outwith Rachel again after our
collab about monoculturalInternet events back in her

(06:06):
ICYMI days. So head to whereveryou get your podcasts and search
normal gossip or check the linkin the show notes. Next, we got
T shirts. We got them. They'rein our hands, and they are
beautiful.
They're so good. They're gonnago out right after Thanksgiving,
so keep an eye on your mailbox.Go outside, move a chair into
bed, maybe your refrigerator outthere. Do not leave its company.

(06:30):
The t shirts are coming.
And finally, the Radiotopiafundraiser continues. Please
visit radiotopia.fm forwardslash donate to give $5.10,
$15.50 bucks once or howeveroften you would like to support.
Never post along with everyother show on Radiotopia who
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(06:53):
our buddies, our friends, ourcomrades. We love them all
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Any amount helps us, all of ourfriend to shows, and this
wonderful network that we areall a part of. Tell them, never
post censure. Okay. That's allthe news I have for you week. In

(07:14):
this episode, Meagol onattention, and then Meagol again
along with Emily and Mohammed onnew Luddism.
But first, in our interstitialsthis week, the sounds of
progress,
sort of.
Drawn from the depths offreesound.org with credit where

(07:36):
it is due in the show notes,Creative Commons licensed field
recordings of an auto loom, adot matrix printer, and a three
d printer. Please enjoy.

Meghal Janardan (09:09):
Travel back with me to a time in the recent
past. It's the first week of theNew Year, and TikTok is about to
be banned in The US. I'm findingthis out as I scroll TikTok.
Content creator after influencerafter small business owner is
freaking out about lost income.

Clip (09:27):
It's over, guys. This is it.
Are they really banning fuckingTikTok in fucking January?
Alright.
And to the US government, I'mnever forgiving you for

drastically this ban will affect my life. I
mean, I like TikTok, but it'snot like I spend that much time
on the app. And at the veryleast, it will be a negative one
for big tech. I text my friendsasking, how much time do y'all
spend on your phones and TikTok?My phone buzzes.
Most of my friends spend four tofive hours on their phones a day
and max one hour on TikTok.Okay. Nice, I think. I probably

(10:08):
fall in the same bracket. I openup screen time and see ten hours
and twenty four minutes wait.
That can't be right. Oh, maybethat is my weekly total. I look
again. Oh, no. No.
No. What? That is double what myfriends spend on their phones.

(10:29):
Oh my god. What do you mean Ispent nineteen hours on TikTok
in the past week?
I see nineteen hours a week formessages too. My face starts to
feel numb and a sense of dreadfills my stomach. Is this okay?
Am I okay? What is going onbetween me and my phone?

(10:50):
Fast forward one week. All I canthink about is my screen time.
Every tap, every scroll, everyvideo, every message adds to
that pesky number. My phone,it's always there right next to
me, constantly lighting up andbuzzing, and I'm constantly
picking it up. I wish it wouldjust stop.
Another week passes. It'sSaturday night, and I'm
scrolling through TikTok. Amessage pops up. Sorry. TikTok

(11:13):
isn't available right now.
Oh, the app has been removedfrom the Google and Apple
stores. Has my wish come true?This is at least one less app to
worry about affecting my screentime. I can go to bed and wake
up without the to even scroll onTikTok. Wonderful.
That was easy. Fourteen hourspass. TikTok is back. You have

(11:35):
got to be kidding me. Not even afull day has passed.
Okay. My wish has not beengranted. I guess it is up to me
to do something about how much Ispend on my phone. Deep breath.
By now, it has been two weekssince that first conversation

(11:55):
with my friends.
Texting and TikTok remain thebiggest offenders, clocking in
in a daily average of two tothree hours each. I thought that
Slack and Gmail would take up abigger percentage, but those
apps were at the bottom. If Ireally think about my habits,
this outcome makes sense. When Iwake up, I check my text and
scroll on TikTok. When I'mbetween meetings, I check my

(12:15):
text and scroll on TikTok.
When I take my dog out, I checkmy text and scroll on TikTok.
When I'm eating lunch, I checkmy text and scroll on TikTok.
When I go to bed, I check mytexts and scroll on TikTok. Even
when I'm out with friends, Ifeel the need to check my phone.
Unless I'm in a theater, it'shard to even watch movies.
Even right now, as I examine myscreen time, I desperately wanna

(12:36):
check my text. I can't focus. Myeyes hurt. I feel nauseous. I
can't stop tapping andscrolling.
Oh my god. Why am I doing this?Am I addicted to the little
dopamine hits? Do I only feelconnected when I'm constantly
texting? Am I avoiding somethingnot on my phone?
Maybe I'm avoiding chores orboredom. Is scrolling doing

(12:59):
something and therefore it'sbetter than doing nothing? If I
try to focus, it feels liketrying to build a sand castle
with dry sand. I keep trying,but everything keeps falling
apart. I thought the problem wasscreen time, but it's deeper.
It's my attention span. I barelyhave one. Listeners, now begins

(13:22):
the arduous journey of tryingsomething that maybe you and
plenty of others have attemptedbefore. I'm going to try and fix
my attention span. Is it evenpossible?
It is, but it's tough. Whatfollows are seven steps I took
over the past eleven months inattempt to fix my attention
span. Step one, observe. I'mgoing to spend a few days

(13:48):
observing my relationship withmy phone. I quickly realized I
am not only always on my phone,I am super attached to it as a
physical object.
I bring it with me everywhere.If I'm working on my laptop at
my desk, my phone is right nextto my laptop. If I go to the
bathroom, my phone is on thebathroom counter. If I'm heating
up my lunch, my phone is on mycounter. For context, I live in

(14:10):
a 600 square foot apartment.
I can hear my phone just fine ifit's in another room. I can't
remember the last time I waswithout my phone for more than
thirty minutes unless Iaccidentally left it somewhere.
This supposedly amazing piece oftechnology is starting to feel
like an invasive parasite that Iallowed into my life. Now I'm
hyper aware of the physicalweight of my phone as I carry it

(14:31):
from room to room. It is like alead shadow that I have to drag
around behind me everywhere Igo.
Step two, offload. Do I have todo everything on my phone? Maybe
if I offload some phone tasks, Iwon't need to bring it
everywhere. I'm going to dosomething unthinkable. I'm
adding messaging to my personallaptop.
I never wanted to do thisbecause I didn't wanna be

(14:53):
distracted while working. But,well, you know how that went. At
the very least, responding on mylaptop can help with the eye
strain. It sounds silly to movefrom one screen to another, but
it works. Typing with a fullkeyboard is easier and faster.
The main problem now is that I'mconstantly looking at my phone
because of the incessantnotifications, which brings me
to the next step. Step three,reconfigure. The biggest trigger

(15:17):
to picking up my phone is seeinga text notification. I
desperately need to reconfigureall of my notifications. Let's
be honest here.
You probably need to changeyours too. If you want to follow
along with me, please do. I'llwait a second for you to pick up
your phone. Okay. Ready?
Open up the settings, go tomessage notifications, and turn
them off. That means no vibrate,no sound, no lock screen, no

(15:41):
notification center, and nobanners. My phone, and hopefully
yours too, is now a plain blackbox that doesn't constantly
light up and vibrate. The newsilence is off putting. It's a
massive change to make.
It's weird not knowing whensomeone is communicating, but it
is working. After a few months,I look at my phone less. I am

(16:01):
less distracted and mostly texton my laptop. But get this, text
notifications are turned off onmy laptop as well. If I want to
see who's texting me, I don'tlet my phone tell me when to
look.
I decide when to look. I decidewhen I respond. And most things
can simply wait. If someoneneeds to reach me immediately,
they can call. The hours I usedto spend on my phone texting

(16:23):
have moved to my laptop andreduced.
Step four, redirect. Let's talkabout the elephant in the room
and what started this journey inthe first place. Please, one
more. One more. TikTok.
Yes. I can delete the app and gocold turkey or use app blockers,
but I wanna try a few otherthings first. When I pick up my

(16:44):
phone, I still instinctivelyopen TikTok and scroll and
scroll and scroll. It is musclememory. I have no impulse
control.
Before I know it, my eyes arehurting and thirty minutes have
passed in a blink. What if Ichoose to watch something long
form? Instead of opening TikTok,I can open YouTube. This also
sounds silly, replacing one formof video content for another,

(17:07):
but I have to try something. Igive it a shot for a few weeks.
It barely works. Watching aYouTube video feels like too big
of a commitment. I don't alwayshave twenty minutes. Now when I
open YouTube, I'm always playingcatch up with half done videos.
I need something to consume foran undecided amount of time that
I can easily return to later.

(17:27):
Step four, two point o. Howabout a book? I don't know if
you know this, but books aremeant to be picked up and put
down and picked up and put downto the library I go. It's really
exciting to pick out a book formyself. It feels so personal
like I'm making my ownalgorithm.
I'm also downloading Libby so Ican have an ebook and an

(17:49):
audiobook on deck. If I'm goingto replace my impulse to open
TikTok, I need all basescovered. I have something to
pick up instead of my phone whenI'm at home, something to read
on my phone when I'm out,something to listen to when I'm
doing chores. Every time I reachfor my phone, a little voice in
my head says, pick up a bookinstead. It works.

(18:11):
It feels like I'm replacing abad addiction with a good one.
In just a few weeks, thosetwelve to fourteen TikTok hours
are spent reading. In threemonths, I read 20 books. But
taking up reading didn'tmagically solve everything. I
have this lingering fear thatI'll enter a reading law, which
will trigger a TikTok relapse.

(18:33):
Every once in a while, I'mreading a boring book and my
mind wanders. And before I knowit, I'm back on TikTok. But it
doesn't feel the same. It takesminutes before I feel nauseous.
It used to take an hour.
So hopefully, by the time I'm ina reading lull, I won't even
have the stomach for TikTok.Step five, delete. Remember when
I said I won't delete TikTok instep four? It is time. Okay.

(18:57):
Do this with me. Is your phonenearby? Good. Hold down on that
little icon and tap the minusbutton. Did you do it?
I did it. It will be okay. Itfeels a bit weird, like a ghost
in a nap. No goodbye. Noexplanation.
I just left. Like, it was atoxic situationship. TikTok felt

(19:19):
like everything I used to loveabout the Internet until it
didn't. A place where I couldexist online without coming
across people I know, a placewhere I could explore and learn
new things. But I haven't hadthat feeling in a while
especially with the introductionof AI content.
I don't wanna spend even moretime trying to decipher if
something is real or not. Plus,in the past eleven months of

(19:40):
fixing my attention span, mostof my friends have deleted
TikTok too, which means fewerpeople to share content with. So
goodbye. I am free. A few weekshave passed and it feels so good

(20:10):
not to be sucked into the apptwenty four seven.
I don't miss it as much as Ithought either. Step six,
communicate. So far, everythingI've tried appears to have been
between me, myself, and I phone,but it hasn't been. During the
past eleven months, I've beenreaching out to people in my

(20:31):
life to let them know thechanges I'm making. When I reach
out, it is a simple, hey.
My notifications are silent. Iwill be slower to respond, or I
might not see something you sendme on social media because I'm
using it less. I thought thisbig personal change would have a
more drastic impact on myrelationships offline. If I'm on
my phone less, that means I'mless connected to people in my

(20:52):
life. Right?
The opposite is happening. Afterreaching out, I often get
responses back from friendsdoing similar things, deleting
social media, scrolling less,using their phones less. When I
started, I was worried I wouldfeel disconnected, but I'm not
alone in this journey. A hazehas slowly lifted over the past
few months. I am more present inmy life and more present with

(21:14):
the people around me.
I didn't even know I wasn'tpresent before. Step seven, let
go. I've made a lot of progress,but my journey isn't done. Let's
go back to something I observedin step one. What am I going to
do about this black brick thatis following me everywhere?
After months, leaving my phonein another room is my biggest

(21:36):
struggle. I am making someprogress, but I'm still working
on it. When I take my dog onwalks, I leave my phone at home.
When I'm out with friends, Ikeep my phone in my bag or
flipped upside down so I'm notchecking it. But I need to make
some changes in my home.
I'm working on making apermanent spot for my phone in
my apartment, essentiallyturning my phone into a

(21:56):
landline. I'm wall mounting abox with a charging port that
lives by my front door. I'm alsoremoving the charging cords from
other areas in my apartment, soI'm forced to put my phone in
the box. The hope here is thateventually, can let go of my
physical attachment and learnthat I can leave my phone
behind. But this change is inthe beginning stages, so I'll

(22:17):
have to report back later.
So where does this leave me inmy attention span? Is it
possible to fix? Short answer,yes. Long answer, it's
complicated. After all of thesechanges, my attention span has
healed a lot.
My phone screen time nowaverages four to six hours a
day, down from ten to twelvehours a day. I rarely feel

(22:41):
nauseous when I'm on my phone.I'm less distractible. I have a
higher tolerance for long formcontent as well. With all of my
guardrails in place, I expect myscreen time to continue to go
down and my attention span tocontinue to improve.
But it isn't a perfect system.Sometimes, my screen time spikes
back up to eight hours a day,not including reading. And

(23:04):
anything can trigger this. Backin February when my grandpa
passed away, I was doomscrollingon TikTok to distract myself. In
early November when Zoran wonthe mayoral election, I spent
countless hours watchingcelebration videos so I could
ride that excitement out.
Even after all of this work, myconsumption habits are still
sensitive. I can easily bepulled back into my phone. But

(23:27):
now, I have enough impulsecontrol to pause and think about
why I'm picking up my phone. Iask myself the same questions I
had at the beginning of thisjourney. Am I avoiding
something?
Am I chasing excitement? Am Iavoiding boredom? Maybe put that
phone down and sit with thosefeelings instead. Allow yourself
to focus. Focus on what is goingon in your life.

(23:50):
I guess that is step eight. Sitwith your feelings. Every once

(24:29):
in a while, I'll have a daywhere my screen time is under
one hour, usually when I'mtraveling without service. It
feels so good. I crave thesedays.
Instead of craving my phone,I've started to crave my life.
But here's the thing, I missbeing on my phone a lot. Why? In
a twisted way, even though I'mmore present in my life, I have

(24:50):
massive Internet FOMO. I missthe memes, knowing what sound is
trending, being clued in oninfluencer drama.
I miss the chaos and excitementof knowing I can come across
anything, a new idea, a recipe,a cute puppy with a simple
scroll. But ultimately, it's toomuch information, too much
distraction, increasingly toomuch slop. I don't want my phone

(25:11):
to dictate my life. I want todictate my life. If I feel this
way and my friends do too, Iknow there must be more people
out there that feel similar.
We are taking our attentionspans back. We have got to spend
our time on more than just apps.Deep breath. Technology has

(27:58):
become so interwoven within mylife, it often feels impossible
to untangle. If I meet someoneat a party, they ask for my
Instagram instead of my number.
On every job application,there's a spot to link my
LinkedIn. I need a Resy profileto make reservations. I once
tried taking a Pilates class inmy neighborhood and had to
download a new app to book theclass. A former employer even

(28:20):
asked every employee to useChatGPT to make content more
efficiently. Feels like theseapps hijack control from me.
Taking my attention back helpedregain some control, but how
else can I reassert my agency asa technology user? Are there
people already working towardsthis? Recently, I learned about
New New Luddism is based onLuddism, an uprising in England

(28:42):
in the nineteenth century wherefactory workers were being
displaced by automated machines.They resisted by smashing these
machines to try to keep someamount of control over the means
of production. Earlier thisNovember, I had the pleasure of
attending the conference, NewLuddism, Technology and
Resistance in the ModernWorkplace, organized by Emily
Mazo and Muhammad Ali.

(29:02):
I am so lucky that theorganizers of that conference
made themselves almostimmediately available to talk
with me about it afterwards. Iwanted to talk to them about
what is happening in the newledism movement and the ways
people are resisting certaintechnologies. Emily Maza,

(29:22):
welcome. Thanks so much forhaving us. Muhammad Ali,
welcome.

Mohamed Ali (29:26):
Thank you for having us.

Emily, you are a former software engineer and
now sociology PhD student atColumbia University, where you
study work and labor organizingin the tech industry. You are
also a member of CollectiveAction Tech, which creates
resources for tech workers whowant to organize their
workplace. Can you help usunderstand what is new Luddism

(29:49):
reacting to?

Emily Mazo (29:50):
Yeah. I think that the the main thread through all
of the different groups ofpeople, researchers, activists,
all the different maybemovements that are taking up the
mantle of the Luddites today isthe same one of the original
Luddites, and it's aboutcontrol. It's not about whether
or not technology is good orbad. It's not about whether or
not you understand technology.It's about whether or not you

(30:13):
have control over the technologythat is getting used on you, the
technology that you're gettingasked to use, and the ways in
which, like, society is changingaround you, your working
conditions are changing, yourliving conditions are changing
as a result of other peopleusing that technology on you or
around you or developingspecific technologies and not

(30:34):
developing other ones.
And it's about whether or notyou have a say.

Okay. Mohammed, you are a JD candidate at
Columbia Law School and formerGoogle product manager who
studies the intersection ofantitrust administrative law and
technology. And you are a memberof the law and political economy
project, which examines howlegal rules distribute power
across markets and institutionsand a research associate at the
AI Now Institute. So for you,what does New Luddism want to

(31:02):
achieve, specifically whenlooking at, like, the means of
production?

So as Luddites, we wanna have a deep and formidable
understanding of what thematerial, political, social
context of scientific andtechnological innovation is, and
how we as the public, and we thesociety, we the citizenry, we
the interested human beings, cantake a role in guiding the
vision for technologicalprogress in the future. Because

(31:28):
if we don't, somebody else will.And that somebody else may not
necessarily have our bestinterests in mind. And I think
we're seeing that now today witha wide variety of technologies
being deployed in themarketplace that can only be
called SLOP. And that is not,you know, and that is not
inevitable.
We're seizing the mantle of theword light and reclaiming it.

Yeah. That's really interesting. It's
something that I was, like,thinking about when I was at the
conference and, you know, doinga little bit research for this
interview is the role of consentin the way that technology is in
our lives. And Buddhism makesyou question that, like, did did
I opt into all of this? Can Iopt out?
How? And what does that meanfor, like, say, me as an

(32:11):
individual? Do you see Luddismas anti technology? And if it is
anti something, whatspecifically is it anti?

Luddism is not anti technology and it is really an
outrageous claim when peopleaccuse Luddites of being anti
technology. What Luddites areinterested in is like Emily just
said very well, power. Who hasthe power to decide what
technologies are used and how,and how they develop and where,
and when they're deployed andwhy. Maybe it'll be useful to

(32:43):
illustrate a material example.Did you know the camera was
racist until very recently?

I guess how it precedes light. Yes.

Well, yes. Yeah. Since almost since the days of
like the Lumiere brothers, thecolors against which the light
was calibrated was, you know,the primary colors, and then
guess what? The tones of whitepeople. And that's why when you
take a picture next to a whiteperson, you know you know, if I
were to a picture next to Emily,either I would look really dark
and then she looked great, orshe looked like she's about to
ascend to heaven and I wouldlook great.

(33:11):
Yes. And that is not just theinevitable result of technology.
And when I criticize that, it'snot because I'm anti technology.
It's because certain specifichardware decisions were made
that led to this failure for us.And, you know, this leads to a a
social reality.
Maybe I'm less likely to wannatake a picture with Emily
because I don't think I'm gonnalook good in one of that. And
imagine that that that littlefeeling that I have, how it adds

(33:34):
up when it multiplies across asociety. And this shows where
the power is. That didn't changebecause some people had a moral
crusade, actually. It changedbecause other companies,
specifically furniture companiesand chocolate manufacturers,
were complaining that theycouldn't capture dark furniture
or dark chocolate well with thecameras.
And so two, you know, corporatebigwigs are fighting over our

(33:56):
technological future. What aboutme wanting to able to take a
picture with my white friends,you know, or me wanting to take
a picture with my whiteneighbors? I mean, that's like
Yeah. I think a lot moreimportant than, you know, your
rendering of a dark chocolate,you know, on a a on a on a
screen. But what we want to dois based on that understanding,
look at what are the ways inwhich the worker, the public, or
anybody, really.

(34:16):
What are the ways in which powermanifests in the way a
technology develops and the wayit proliferates and the way we
interact with it.

So what would control look like in this
situation or I guess a betterfuture?

Emily Mazo (34:33):
A lot of the battle for control over what technology
gets built, who gets to use it,who it gets used on starts in
the workplace. There's also sortof a lack of a history over the
last few decades in The UnitedStates of organized labor, like
unions organizing for controlover what gets built. And I

(34:55):
think that that shift back tosort of democratic control over
what gets designed, whatprojects get planned, how they
get implemented, and thosedecisions being in the hands of
the people who are actuallybuilding things, marketing them,
figuring out what gets out toconsumers, what contracts get

(35:17):
signed with vendors, othercompanies, other governments,
other powerful powerful groups.Having these decisions in the
hands of the people doing thework is one of the ways that
that control sort of gets backinto the hands of people that
this technology is going like,all technologies are going to be

(35:38):
used against. There are a lot ofdifferent workplaces where
technology creation happens.
There's a whole supply chain ofworkplaces that goes into the
building of things like ChatGPTor surveillance cameras or your
social media feed. And thatsupply chain starts probably not

(35:58):
in The United States. Thatsupply chain starts in places
like Mines for Rare EarthMinerals. It happens in remote
workplaces of data workers whoare labeling data that then
becomes part of machine learningmodels. It happens in, like, big
fancy office buildings ofprofessional tech workers in The
US as well.
And the fight for control overwhat technology gets built, who

(36:20):
gets to use it, who it gets usedon, it's happening in all of
those workplaces. And all ofthat organizing, if it comes
together, it could be really,really powerful.

Yeah. Definitely. And I think
something that kind of surprisedme when I attended the
conference, was like, oh, a lotof what's being talked about is
a lot of stuff that I alreadywant and I'm hoping for
personally and I'm trying to do.This entire year, I've been
trying to fix my attention span.What approaches are people doing
to resist the tech in theworkforce?

Emily Mazo (36:54):
There are very few wall to wall or, like, majority
unions in tech workplaces in TheUnited States, but the few that
do already exist either have orare thinking about bargaining an
AI clause into their contract.And those are also getting
written into contracts in thetech industry. Kickstarter
United just yesterday concludeda six week strike over their

(37:18):
second contract and incrediblyproud of everything that they've
won. And one of the thingsthat's in their new contract is
an AI clause saying no workershere can be replaced by LLMs.
But because there aren't thatmany, like, NLRB recognized
unions in the tech industry yet,we're seeing a lot of, like, out
of contract, out of liketechnical public union

(37:39):
organizing around these things.
And the same way, anybody can doa collective action. You don't
have to be in a union that yourboss calls a union in order to
do it. Amazon Employees forClimate Justice, AUCJ, made
public an open letter thatthey've been organizing of
office workers at Amazon, justconnecting like the
environmental, the labor, andlike surveillance issues of this

(38:01):
technology with their everydayworking conditions, their day to
day tasks at work, and how theirlabor process is changing with
the introduction of LLMs.

Do you find that, you know, we already have
labor movements in The US. Andlike you mentioned, unions
amongst tech workers are not asas common. Do you think that
this new Luddism movement has ishelping kind of unite maybe kind
of disparate forces togetherinto one more collective action?

Emily Mazo (38:31):
I hope so. And I think that we will. Office based
sort of professional techworkers, what I have in mind is
like software engineers, datascientists, designers, product
managers, and also like contentmoderators, call center workers,
data workers, data labelers.These are like professional
workers amongst whom there isn'tthat much of a history of union

(38:53):
organizing and collectiveaction, at least in the last
couple of decades. But theseare, you know, highly skilled
workers with specializedexpertise.
And they know how to do theirjobs and getting sort of
commands at work to use toolsthat they don't think are the
right fit to solve the technicalproblems that are in front of
them Mhmm. Is I think a reallyrelatable issue at work for a

(39:18):
lot of people. And I think we'regoing to see a lot more sort of
coming together across jobtitles, workplaces, different
parts of the industry aroundsomething that is affecting so
many people. Not necessarilybecause it will make people more
productive, but I thinkhistorically, what labor
scholars and labor historianshave seen is that automation

(39:39):
technology is frequentlydeveloped and introduced at
times when the people that runcompanies want to control their
workforce more. When they wantto discipline labor.
When they want to make workerseasier to control. And they want
to make production a little bitmore predictable, let's say. And

(39:59):
I think what we've been seeingover the past few years, I mean,
the big union wave in media, thereally militant strike of
culture workers in WGA and SAGin 2023, the surge of labor
organizing amongst professionaltech workers in The US from like
2019 to 2022. This is apopulation of workers that I

(40:19):
think a lot of bosses wannadiscipline. And I do not think
that it is a coincidence that alot of these automation
technologies that are beingintroduced into the workplace
and pushed this hard, investedin this much right now.
Mohammed, to go back to what youwere saying about possible
branching paths and which onesget pruned and which ones get
watered.

Do you find that there is also room for new
to nuletism for people who arenot, like, in tech?

Almost everybody's a tech worker now in one way or
another. I'll give you anexample. We were talking about
consent earlier. You ever forgetyour password? I'm sure you've
done that before.
Right? And you know thosecaptchas that you have to do and
they're like, oh, show me what'sa traffic's point the traffic
cone or point at the streetcrosswalk. Have you ever
wondered why all the questionsthey ask you are about road
stuff? Yes. Okay.

(41:09):
The reason that that is isbecause you are training self
driving cars. Every time youforget your password, you're
training a self driving car. Didyou ever consent to do that work
for Google for free? Hell no.But at a minimum, at least from
a social perspective, we didn'tagree to be tech workers.
Everybody is in one way oranother a tech worker, whether

(41:29):
they like it or not. Who has thepower? Who has the power to
control the technologies, theirdevelopment, their application,
their proliferation, even justhow they look and where they end
up. And right now, it's not us.Is there a place in Lenisim for
people who don't work in tech?
Of course. But more importantly,everybody, especially if you're

(41:49):
listening to this podcast, worksin tech one way or another.

Yeah. That no. That makes sense. Exactly. It's
it's very similar to what I wassaying earlier about, you know,
like fixing my attention span.
By what you're saying, me beingon social media, even though I'm
just watching videos is a wayI'm working in tech.

Oh, yes. All

the data is going to something and it's
being trained for somethingelse, whether it's even just to
see what is gonna be next on myalgorithm. You know, even when
I'm like trying to be off myphone, I'm gonna go to a
restaurant and suddenly I comehome and I'm on their email
list. I'm like, how how did thathappen? It sounds like it's just

(42:28):
like there are so many waysthat, you know, technologies in
our lives. And if you look, youknow, at like in the new lives
of movement, it really does helpone question what exactly is
going on and how, you know, youas an individual, your data is
just being used constantly.

Emily Mazo (42:47):
Yep. Yep. And it is possible to create prosocial
technology. Right? It's justthat the people that, you know,
have the resources to dotechnological development, don't
have an incentive to do that.
And Right. There's a a bigdiscussion to be had, all of us
together about what we wanttechnology to look like in the

(43:08):
future. What does prosocialtechnology look like? What does
technology created by workersfor workers look like? By like
everyday people, how do we wantour society to look at what kind
of technology do we wanna buildto help us get there?
But if we had the power rightnow to decide what technology
gets built, we wouldn't behaving this conversation. Right?

(43:30):
So before maybe before we'realongside the conversation about
what kind of technology we dowant, we need to be having the
conversation that Mohammad'stalking about. How do we build
the power so that we get to thepoint where we are the people
who get to make those decisions?That makes sense.

And I I just wanted to add one thing to that, is
that it's not like we're justasking for unearned or
undeserved power. All these techcompanies that, you know, make
trillions of dollars, maketrillions of dollars off the
backs of, obviously, the laborof the tech workers, both the
employed tech workers, and as wementioned earlier, the
unemployed tech workers. Butmore more importantly, they

(44:06):
receive billions of dollars ofpublic money, of our tax
dollars. Look, we aresubsidizing these institutions
all the way back to the roadsthat they they use to get to the
office, all the way back to theenergy, the electricity that
they that they that they theyuse, you know, public works,
water, electricity, power, theeducation system that trains
their workers, that disciplinestheir workers, that educates

(44:28):
their management. We, thesociety and the polity, are the
reason they exist in the firstplace, and then we're gonna be
like, oh, go do whatever youwant with it.
If certain people can succeed,we can't let them pull the
ladder right up from under themand say, oh, I did this by
myself. No, you didn't. Okay, weall played a role, and now we'd
like to enjoy having yoursuccess be diffused for the rest

(44:53):
of us, who played, you know, whocontinue, you know, to uphold
all of scientific progress inthe planet today.

Do you see that there is a need like, have
everyone coming together. Right?Everyone's interested in this
movement. Looking athistorically where elitism
started, where we have peopleintentionally smashing
technology as a form ofresistance very for very
specific reasons, not justbecause. And looking at where we

(45:23):
are at now, do you find thatthere is a need to escalate the
movement or the actions ofpeople to something that is very
similar to that or likeequivalent to say smashing the
machines?

Emily Mazo (45:36):
I will say large swaths of the conference were
off of the record so that thisconversation can be had in a
safe and secure way. I thinkthat this is a question on the
tip of a lot of people's tongue.Right? How do we talk about
sabotage? What different typesof sabotage are there?
There's property destruction.There's also Mhmm. As Jatin

(45:59):
Sadowski, who is one of thespeakers of the conference
brought up the history of theidea of sabotage in the American
labor movement goes back to, youknow, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn
writing about it for a pamphletfor the IWW talking about
sabotages, the withdrawal ofefficiency. There's lots of ways
to withdraw efficiency. One ofthose ways is all the tools that

(46:21):
are already in sort of the labormovement toolbox of strikes and
slowdowns, walkouts, work torule.
There are other ways to withdrawefficiency like, well, I don't
know if you'd put consumerboycotts or other kinds of
consumer protest on that listtechnically, but there are lots
of ways to protest and put yourmaybe your hammer where your

(46:45):
mouth is, that are not propertydestruction. But I think that
there is I mean, if you lookaround online, there are a lot
of people making jokes abouttaking hammers to data centers.
I am not personally an expert onhow to break a data center, but
I think there are a lot ofpeople that are taking up the
history of the Luddites asinspiration that are having this

(47:07):
conversation.

Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of forms of of
sabotage which aren't going tofall in under property damage.
And, you know, there and, youknow, just to point out a few,
you know, there's like sabotageas refusal. So we can refuse to
use a harmful technology fromthe consumer side, refuse to use
biometric surveillance tools,students can refuse to install
proctoring spyware and gettogether at the university and
say we're not going to live in aworld where we have to install

(47:31):
spyware on my computer to take adamn exam.
There's also sabotage collectiveaction, which is what we talked
about, you know, of what wetalked about at the at the
conference. Workers demandinglimits on algorithmic
management. Unions may berequiring human oversight over
AI decision making, or, youknow, strikes, collective
bargaining against unsafeautomation or surveillance.
There's also, from the legalperspective, sabotage as

(47:54):
regulation. We lawyers can takean active role on banning things
like predictive policing orfacial recognition, or creating
platform transparency laws oralgorithmic accountability
requirements.
There's also culture jamming,which can count as a type of
sabotage, you know, publiccampaigns, that's what students
are doing at the university, atColumbia, and all over the
country, where they're puttingout posters and art, satire,

(48:15):
zines, memes, art, andinstallations that describe, you
know, the dangers ofexploitative exploitative AI
practices. There's constructivesabotage. Instead of just
resisting the harmfultechnologies, what if we create
better alternatives? There's along history of the free
software movement that buildstechnologies that are copy left
instead of copyright. And so bybuilding, you know, constructive

(48:38):
alternatives, and look at lookat the look at Blue Sky and and
Mastodon, you know, that arealternatives to to Elon Musk
backed Twitter.
And finally, they're sabotaged,you know, as transparency and
whistleblowing. Here's where thejournalists come in.
Investigative journalismunveiling as they did recently,
how many judges around Americawere using so called AI

(49:00):
technology to decide whodeserves parole, which attacks
the very heart of the criminaljustice system. Research
uncovering algorithmic harm, thewaymos were found to be more
likely to run over black peoplethan white people. That's a big
story.
Didn't really make as much of asplash as I wished it would, but
hopefully, you know, moreresearch will come out that'll
expose the how common algorithmslike that can actually create a

(49:20):
lot of harm, and other sorts ofaudits and whistleblowing
activity. So sabotage is notjust taking a hammer to a
machine and doing propertydamage, but there are so many
things we can do, whether it'swithholding our labor, whether
it's withholding our our ourconsumption of goods, whether
it's using our specific skillsas lawyers to regulate, as
journalists to whistleblow, asengineers to build alternatives,

(49:45):
and as artists and generallyinterested people to jam the
culture against a specificvision for technological
progress that seeks to exploitpeople instead of uplift them.

Oh, yeah. That's amazing. There's like a
lot of different ways to goabout this. I mean, and you
brought up Blue Sky andMastodon, like, something that
I've been thinking about, youknow, if I'm gonna really get
off Instagram and but I stillwant to be on the Internet,
Should I start my own blog whereI self host it, you know, where
I own the data? And that can belike an alternative to even

(50:15):
being on something like Substackand seeing like different ways
to resist.
Looking forward, you know, wehave the conference that you
both helped organize, which didwhich was amazing and we saw a
lot of people come together andattend it. Is New Leadism a
movement?

I would respond that yes.

Emily Mazo (50:35):
I agree. I think that it's if not a a movement
with a membership, it is ananalysis in a way of thinking
about the world, in a way a wayof thinking about power that we
are seeing grow in a lot ofdifferent areas right now. And
there's a, certainly in thiscountry, a resurgence of an
understanding of what power isand how to wield it and an

(50:59):
increase in people takingcollective action together, both
in the workplace and in thestreets. And sometimes that's
around technology and sometimesit's around other things that
help other people exert powerand control over us. And this
analysis is being picked up moreand more this way of looking at
the world and looking at power,I think it is going to bring
some really great things.

Thank you so much, Emily Mazo and Muhammad
Ali for taking the time to talkwith me. If you're new to new
Luddism like I am, Emily andMuhammad gave us a bunch of
resources for people to followand things to look at to learn
more. After speaking withEmilene Mohammed, I'm
questioning even more howtechnology has affected my life
beyond my attention span. It'soverwhelming. But I think New

(51:56):
Luddism has the frameworks andtools to take that overwhelm and
turn them into collectiveaction.
I'm excited to keep this journeygoing.

That is the show we have for you this week. We're
gonna be back here in the mainfeed on Wednesday, December 3.
Never post would simply not bepossible without the support of
our members. And the moremembers we have, the more
possible the show becomes, andthe more possibilities exist for
what we can do with it for you.Become a member at neverpo.st,

(54:39):
and for $4 a month, help us helpyou by helping us to make more
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Neverpo.st, $4 a month, the end.Neverpost's producers are Audrey
Evans, Georgia Hampton, and themysterious doctor first name
last name. Our friend of theshow this episode was Meagle

(54:59):
Janardin. Our senior producer isHans Buto. Our executive
producer is Jason Oberholzer.
And the show's host, that's me,is Mike Rignetta. Who flees? The

(55:20):
bank of society. That Frenchwoman, Gauguin. Who chronicles
the groveling shame anddisgrace?
That French woman, Duras. Whoflees the state, the men's club,
and who stays and goes to bed toservice it tomorrow in low wage

(55:43):
white labor uniform. Excerpt ofDalmatian people by Jessica
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(56:04):
distributed by Radiotopia.

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