Episode 197: Yay JSON!

Episode Transcript
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Adam Curry (00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for october 11, 2024 episode 197,
yay. Jason, oh yes, everybody. Iam Jax. I'm jacked and Ginny,
it's time once again forpodcasting 2.0 because it's
Friday the beginning of yourweekend. This is exactly what
you need to get you into themood. It is Quentin time.

(00:21):
Everybody. Welcome to the boardmeeting of podcasting. 2.0
everything's going on inpodcasting. We, of course, are
the only boardroom that neverputs anything behind a paywall
and is always premium content.I'm Adam curry here in the heart
of the Texas Hill Country and inAlabama, the man who hashes hctp
without fear or favor, say helloto my friend on the other end,
the one, the only Mr. Onshimself, Dave Jones,

Dave Jones (00:49):
you sound crunchy. Crunchy? Yeah, you just say you
just crunched. When you repliedto me, it's got, I must have you
jacked too much.

Adam Curry (00:59):
You know, I noticed, I think something changed with
clean feed, or something changedin Windows that I would actually
blame windows for anything else,because I noticed that I
actually had to turn down theoutput that's going into clean
feed. I'm minus four dB onmyself. I wonder

Dave Jones (01:19):
you where this is very crunchy. Now, crunchy, very
crunching. Just me or the No,no, it's

Adam Curry (01:27):
boardroom. No, it's, uh, it's only the clean feed
stuff. And Dvorak complainedabout that too. But I'm like,
You're over

Dave Jones (01:35):
modulate. I mean, you're like, Oh, I'm

Adam Curry (01:36):
over modulating.

Dave Jones (01:37):
Let me see what I got. Oh, you just pumped it out,
right. There. You were supermodulating.

Adam Curry (01:41):
Hold on a second. Let me check this for a second.
Auto mute. No, I don't want thathere. Let me see, oh, routing,
oh, I can't do anything, hmm, Ihave a feeling it's something
with either something,

Dave Jones (02:00):
I mean, I can put it, I I'm, I'm fine with it. I
can tolerate it, for

Adam Curry (02:04):
sure, yeah, but I don't, I don't like you having
issues with me.

Dave Jones (02:09):
Yeah, Daniel, Daniel's in the board, in the in
the boardroom. He said, Adamsounds like he's clipping. I
couldn't even hear him

Adam Curry (02:16):
one second. Let me see, manage sound devices, like
I'm clipping, like I'm clipping,yeah, additional clip, it clip.
Let me see levels enhancement,advanced levels. Uh, no, that's
not it. Hold on.

Dave Jones (02:34):
Are you enhanced?

Adam Curry (02:37):
Well, in more ways than one, my friend, let me tell
you. Let me tell you, Oh, seconddevice properties, microphone.
Here we go. Additional devicesettings. Let me see. How about
if I bring this back? Does thatchange anything? Or does it just
get softer? One softer, but it'sbetter, it doesn't 121212 how's

(02:58):
that better? Yeah, better. Or asit used to be, one two, as it
used to be. Oh, okay, well, thenI think windows just decided to
let me do this. 1212 okay, 1212how's that? Is that That's good,
yeah, okay, I can pull it down alittle bit like that. Okay,
yeah,

Dave Jones (03:16):
sounds good. Okay, well, yeah, because I didn't
change my slider on you, andthen all of a sudden you were
just like, you pumping it out.Like, yeah,

Adam Curry (03:25):
Dvorak was complaining about that yesterday
too. I think, I think windowsjust decided to change
something. Hey, I you know what?Let's, let's turn up this level.
For no reason.

Dave Jones (03:34):
Did it turn on the oral exciter? No, I, you didn't
know. That's

Adam Curry (03:38):
the first thing I checked make make sure there's
no oral exciter on there. Can'thave any of that. Hello there.
Dave, how you doing? Brother,

Dave Jones (03:46):
hey, hey,

Adam Curry (03:46):
what's up? Yeah. Well, it's time, once again, for
a board meeting. Podcasting 2.0lots to talk about. A lot of
people yapping about stuff. Alot of things going on. A lot
happening. Tuesday, that's goingto be what happened in 2004 The
Verge is putting that out. I didmy, my bit of the interview for
today.

Dave Jones (04:06):
Okay, so this is a this without, with only knowing
the title. This is abackgrounder on podcasting and
its history. I

Adam Curry (04:15):
think it's a little more than that. I think because
2004 you know, YouTube wascoming, Facebook was coming,
Twitter was coming. It's like2004 somehow was an important
year where a lot of thingshappened. I think that's but
yes, podcasting would obviouslybe the the most important thing
that happened in 2004

Dave Jones (04:34):
Okay, so they lumped you in with the 2004 parade of
of tech.

Adam Curry (04:41):
Yeah, there you go. I was, I was the last one that
kept hearing you. Like, Hey,can't I'm like, Man, I don't
really have time. And then, andthe guy finally says, like,
Look, man, I gotta have this inby Friday evening. Like, oh,
what is it again? Oh, okay,yeah, let's do it.

Dave Jones (04:57):
Okay, but you just roll it. I mean, you, you got
you. Got that, that thing,pretty much nailed. I mean, you,
you don't have to, like, you canjust roll in there and do that
story with anybody, right? Yeah,well, I

Adam Curry (05:07):
try to mix it up, you know, I try to put in some
extra things and make itexciting, make it a little
unique for everybody. Yeah, it'sgood that

Dave Jones (05:14):
it's not just, like another history of podcasting,
because that's been done. So I'mto death, you

Adam Curry (05:19):
know, it's not that. It's not, no, I like, I like
their angle. I like the angle ofwhat happened in 2004

Dave Jones (05:24):
and what happened in 2007 with the cell phone. And,

Adam Curry (05:27):
yeah, yeah. So I was listening to the new media money
and video show yesterday.

Unknown (05:37):
It's my new name for it in MMV.

Adam Curry (05:41):
MMV, V, yes, the new media money and video show,
because that's all they talkabout, is video and money and
and I heard that you were, youJudas, you were, yes, you were
boosting the new media show andnot listening to booster Graham
ball,

Dave Jones (05:58):
no, here, here's what happened. I saw, I saw
booster Grand Ball was live,yeah, but the feed was messed up
because from from the void zerostuff, I didn't get the live
notification for booster andball on my phone until, like the
show was almost I got a boot. Igot the notification, the push

(06:19):
notification, I hit it went intopod verse, and you were like,
all right, that about does it?We're gonna hit the last I was
like, oh, okay, all right, well,so, so then I was like, what
else is live? And I like, somenew media show was live. And so
they got in and started, youknow, boosting those guys,
right?

Adam Curry (06:36):
But they go live around two o'clock our time,
right? So my timing was right,because child was making it
sound like we were doing at thesame time, like, I don't think
so I wouldn't do that,

Dave Jones (06:46):
see, because that's what I that's what I thought
when I got the notice, and I waslike, Oh, they're going, they're
going head to head, man, that's,that's a bold move. So

Adam Curry (06:53):
this was an interesting thing, because, I
mean, the way the the void zerosystem works, which I think a
lot of people are using, the noagenda infrastructure runs a lot
of things for the community,including the stream and the
chat and the boardroom and thetroll room and all that stuff.
And the way it works is youupload your file, whatever it

(07:17):
is, straight up FTP, and then hehas this little mini CDN of, I
think, four or six servers indifferent locations around the
world, and just does asynchronization. You get an
email, and you're done. So whenI publish my feed, which then
has the live item in it, youknow, obviously I get an email
notification. I don't alwayslook for the email notification,

(07:38):
but I can see, you know, stuffstarts to go off or not, and I
get, I get pings that's livenow. It's very kind of hit or
miss, because the whatever, Iguess I'm using podcast guru,
which does its own parsing, Ithink that's probably why I got
the why I got the notification.But even uploading the feed, it

(08:00):
really depended on which serveryour app or whatever it was was
hitting, whether you got theupdated feed or not. So if you
happen to get the one, I thinkpodcast guru just got lucky.
Yeah, exactly. So it justhappened to get the one where I
upload the file because thesynchronization wasn't working.
And then after I'm done with theshow, I'm like, publishing. And

(08:22):
I'm like, How come it's anepisodes.fm updated? That's
what's interesting. Like, okay,because I guess episodes.fm
doesn't look to the index. Whenyou use something, it doesn't
have an iTunes ID, I just usethe URL. So it got lucky. It
said, Okay, good to go, good topublish. And then there's all
kind and of course, the errorscome like, Hey, I'm not getting

(08:44):
it. This is not happening.That's not I don't understand
what's going on. And I'm like, Idon't I can't figure it out
because I can see the feed. Irefresh the page, I get I get it
from the servers. It looks good.And then you say, No, I'm not
getting it because I pinged youopened it in my browser, and it
was right. And then, so Irefresh my browser, and then it

(09:04):
wasn't there. Then it was onlyepisode 23 I'm like, okay,
something screwed up. Iimmediately think, caching, but
boy, that's a long cache. Tryingto bust the cache. Re uploading
stuff. So I wind up. I hitTelegram for void zero. He's not
responding. So I pull the batsigma, pull the emergency rip
cord, which is a text which I'min his priority group. So he

(09:28):
gets woken up in the middle ofthe night in Holland. Oh

Unknown (09:31):
yeah. He

Adam Curry (09:32):
says, what? So what? And because I also have to do
curry and the keeper that night,so I'm like, something's wrong,
man. He says, Oh, let me see ifI can fix it. And he says, oh,
yeah, I did an upgrade ofeverything earlier today. Like,
oh no, cool. Well, he's learnedhe doesn't do these things
before, you know, on a show day,so that's good. But of course, I

(09:54):
do a show almost every day, andso, you know, he switched to
Knicks a while. L

Dave Jones (10:00):
back, NixOS, Nix OS. And

Adam Curry (10:04):
so this is apparently some kind of deep
seated bug. Even had to open upa GitHub issue for it. I wonder
what it was. I don't knowexactly, but he, he jerry rigged
it somehow, and it got itworking again. And then, but
then, of course, yesterday, Igot another like fear moment
when I get last night, I'm goingto bed, and I get all these I

(10:27):
just hit the Twitter timeline,which I you know, just due to
the inbox, what's going on, andpeople are mad, like, what Apple
hasn't updated in over threehours? And so I verify
Instagram, ball or no for noagenda, for no agenda, and I

(10:47):
think it was just an appleparsing error or whatever it
was. And every, every tweetsaid, Time to switch to a modern
podcast app. See, yep, becausethat's one of the features I
always, I always say, if you geta modern podcast app, you get
almost real time updates. Youknow, there's no waiting around
for hours. And so this is thankyou Apple for marketing that

(11:09):
that was great.

Dave Jones (11:11):
Now I want to talk about that a little bit today
too. Well,

Adam Curry (11:13):
should we bring in our guest? Should we bring in
our guest? Yeah, sure, sincethis guest knows a lot about
podcasting, he's been around fora hot minute. You know him from
the podcast. The audacity, theaudacity to podcast. You also
know him as the man behind pod.Gageman, welcome to the
boardroom, everybody. Mr. DanielJ Lewis,

Unknown (11:34):
thank you. Thank

Daniel J. Lewis (11:36):
you. Thank you. Adam, thank you Dave. Thank you
everyone. Don't worry, we'lljust edit out all that other
stuff that happened earlier? No,we leave that in

Adam Curry (11:43):
there. They're talking about that would that's
the best part is when it allscrews up

Dave Jones (11:47):
the future of podcasting. That's that's your
that's your gig.

Adam Curry (11:52):
I forgot that. Yes, the future of podcasting,
another podcast. Hey, Daniel,how you doing?

I'm doing great. I just love what we're
doing with podcasting 2.0 and asyou know, I just love the
industry.

Dave Jones (12:04):
What did you so go 2004 was that? Was that earlier
than you? Or when do you? How doyou fit in that mix? Yeah,

for me, I didn't come into podcasts until
oh five, because it was with theintroduction of podcasts. Or as
Steve Jobs said it back then,podcasting in iTunes 4.9 then my
boss, an Apple fanboy, was alllike, this podcast thing is so
incredible. You gotta check itout. I thought, Oh, another
thing from Apple. I didn't likeApple back then, so I checked it

(12:34):
out, and I was hooked, because Iwas so burned out on talk radio.
I had a long commute back then,and I was burned out on local
talk radio, the sports and newson the nines or whatever it was.
And then I discovered this worldof podcasts where I could listen
to exactly the information Iwanted. And then at some point,
I realized I know how to do thissame kind of thing. I was a web

(12:58):
developer, web designer. I hadsome production background, and
eventually it took me two yearsto actually get going, because I
struggle with perfectionism, buteventually I just wanted to jump
in. And it took people to saywhat I'm sure Adam is thinking
right now is, don't try to beperfect, just jump in and do it.
You're

Adam Curry (13:17):
a Hall of Famer, aren't you? I am. Yeah, right,
yeah. Hall of Fame,

Dave Jones (13:23):
our RSS and podcasting will cure you of
perfectionism very quickly

Adam Curry (13:29):
or kill you, as I was just talking with, with,
with the guy from The Verge. AndI'm like, that's the best part
of podcasting. It wasn't all thepros. It was the, it was the, as
Apple would say, the crazy onesback in the day. That's what
made it interesting. When I hearMichael Butler going, I just

(13:49):
drank a six pack and I decidedto crack the mic.

Dave Jones (13:55):
Oh, that's old food bar Fridays and all the other
Yeah, it was good. Let me, letme talk about episodes.fm. For
just second, because, as I'vestruggled with that this week,
and I think it pertains to justthe messiness of podcasting, the
you know, so this the the theforever, quote, unquote side

(14:16):
project that we, that

Adam Curry (14:17):
we're building, which you keep leaking out. I
didn't do that on purpose.

Dave Jones (14:21):
That was Spurlock. So Spurlock, I think what
happens is, I think if Ivisualize Spurlock, he has no
life, none.

Adam Curry (14:32):
He has none, 2000 screens in his in his cave,
yeah, and he's

Dave Jones (14:37):
looking at it, you know, like, like in the matrix,
where it had all they would juststare at those screens with the
green jump floating, flying downthe screen, floating down. Yeah,
I think that's what he justlooks at, pod ping all days,
just float, just watching it,because he saw the, he saw the
pod pings come through and like,back channel me so the but, I
mean, I gotta test the stuff,you know. I can't, I can't hold

(14:59):
it back.

Adam Curry (14:59):
I. Know, I know I'm actually, I'm, I love James
Cridland, who accidentallyreceived logging credentials on
in a group chat, and he is, andhe hasn't even said anything
about it, you know, he's like,I'm just not gonna say anything.
I was immediately thinking,would, do you think Dave's

(15:20):
parsing the log to see if heactually logged in or not.

Dave Jones (15:23):
No, I did not do because, yeah, that's what I
told you. I was like. I waslike, yeah, leave it to leave it
to me to accidentally send logincredentials for this unreleased
product to the journal, to thepodcast, journalist, that's a
great idea.

Adam Curry (15:39):
Don't worry. Everybody will be uncloaking
soon. We'll be it will beuncloaking soon. We will be all
right. So anyway, yes, podepisodes.fm,

Dave Jones (15:48):
yeah. So this, this is actually, I want your take on
this too, Daniel, because you'rethe keeper of the of everything
Apple directory adjacent andlike the Pro. So the issue that
I ran into is this, this thingthat we're building, it creates
feeds. Now, I mean, these arenot, I mean, this is not a

(16:09):
hosting platform. That's notwhat this is, but it does create
feeds. And so these feeds haveto, they have to get into
circulation somehow. And it's avery, it's a very quick process.
So it creates a feed, and thesefeeds need to be out there and
subscribable. And of course,they are with an RSS URL

(16:32):
immediately. But then, you know,the issue is, then, okay, how do
you present it to the world in away where they can easily
subscribe, which is always beenthe Achilles heel of podcasting.
And so Nathan's episodes.fm Iwas like, Oh, this is, this is a

(16:52):
godsend. I mean, this is great.I'm just gonna plug this thing
in. And when, when you fire up afeed as a site. It's a side
effect of this other thing, thisfeed pops out. Well, then I'll
just pump that throughepisodes.fm and then the
listener can use episodes.fmwhich is this beautiful user

(17:13):
interface and and so easy. Theproblem is, you push this feed
over. Do you push this feed URLover to epso.fm, and this thing
is a new feed. It's the worldhas never seen this thing
before. You know, 30 seconds agoit didn't exist. So it's not in

(17:34):
any directories. It's not in anysort of distribution whatsoever.
So you're immediately going tobe limited to only podcast apps
that can support local ingestionof an RSS feed, or podcasts that
pull from the index, becausewe're pod pinging it immediately
into the index, and the indexingests, you know, instantly,

(17:57):
instantly. So you but the butthe the experience you get. And
this is not the fault ofepisodes of.fm this is the this
is just the problem ofpodcastings work. Yeah. The
problem with podcastdistribution is that the like
the top two spots are Spotifyand Apple podcasts. Those two

(18:19):
things are there. They havetheir own directories, and
they're also gatekeepers. Youhave to create an account on
their system and then submityour feed to them, so you're
that feed is never going to bein there. So those two, those
first two links, the ones toeverybody's familiar with, are
just going to result in innothing. I mean, like Apple's

(18:41):
gonna the apple link is gonna,is gonna break?

Yeah, well, there is a workaround for that,
at least for Apple is okay. Andsome other apps do this too,
where they have a websiteversion. Uh, no. Even better
than that, there is a, eitherit's a HTML or HTML. Sorry, not
forget the HT part. We'll editthat out. Dot

Adam Curry (19:04):
htm. Yes, Daniel, it

is the you replace HTTPS with podcast. So
it's podcast colon and then theRSS Feed URL that will activate
the podcast app. Even on rightnow I'm on the latest Mac OS
that can access Apple podcaststhrough the browser, but it
still launches my app and itprompts me to follow that RSS

(19:28):
feed directly. And there aremany other apps that support the
same kind of thing, where youjust pass in the feed URL as
some form of the app URL. It'snot always the schema that's
used sometimes it is just astraight URL, like, I think
podcast attic does this, where,if you do podcast addict.com/i,

(19:49):
think it might just be feedslash, and then it's the feed
URL. It allows you to subscribedirectly to that feed Spotify,
of course, doesn't do that,

Adam Curry (19:59):
but you. Used to be with episodes.fm it would, and I
think that's a change that wasmade, it would highlight
browsers that use or thatrecognize this feed or have
already subscribed. It wassomething especially for Live
episodes now, now I still getthe full list. It also used to
also only support or only showapps that supported the live

(20:22):
tag. I think that's a changethat was made.

Dave Jones (20:25):
The Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, for sure on that.
That's okay. So what you said,Daniel, about the podcast link,
I I see this. I saw that. Thiswas with this was what was, what
was happening with episodes.fmwhen you went to Apple podcast,
the problem is that I get AppleI get so I just did this on my

(20:47):
Linux machine. I went to one ofthese feeds, clicked through to
episodes.fm, and what I'm seeingis, here's the list I'm seeing.
G and again, this is not a thisis not a criticism of
episodes.fm, this is just thethe wonkiness of the way
podcasting is, is what I get isg Potter is the top spot Spotify

(21:12):
is the next one that feeds notgoing to be in there. So what
it's going to do is it's goingto do a cert it, it's going to
kick me to a Spotify search forthe title, which is fine,
that's, that's a good way tofall back, but this, but the
feeds just not going to bethere. So that's not the user is
going to be confused. They'renot going to know what to do.

(21:32):
Then it gives ln beats PocketCasts, and the fifth one down is
Apple podcasts. But see, I'm,I'm on a Linux box, so this
apple podcast link is just, isnot going to, is not going to do
anything. It's just going to,it's just going to fail. So that
that's, that's the like, it onlyworks. That only works if your

(21:53):
own device or on Mac, but thelink still shows up for other
platforms. So you still get thisconfusing, like, I don't know
what's happening here. Now, I'msure Nathan has, you know, ways
to, like, detect platform andwork around some of these
issues. But if you look at thefull if you just go down the

(22:14):
full list and look at all thedifferent options, you have a
lot of exceptions. There's a lotof exceptions. There's more
exceptions than non exceptions,is what I'm saying. And

Adam Curry (22:24):
well, that's it. Our project has failed.

Dave Jones (22:28):
Well, you know, I think it kind of brought up to
me that that, you know, these,these two, these, the two
biggest platforms of Spotify andApple are they're acting as i
They can do whatever. Yeah,they, yeah. They the

(22:49):
gatekeepers. Because my, myfeed, can't get into their
system in a new in any way with,you know, like, it can, it can't
get into their directory, iswhat I'm saying.

Okay, so you're saying, like, if you haven't
intentionally submitted yourfeed, right, right, then it
doesn't appear in these otherapps that rely on Apple's
catalog for their list ofpodcasts.

Dave Jones (23:16):
Yes, exactly, yes, exactly. And so, you know, it's,
it would not be, and it'sunderstandable. They can do
whatever they want. They can runtheir directories and their
platforms however they want, ifthey want to be

Adam Curry (23:27):
a holes, yes,

Dave Jones (23:30):
but, but it, but what it leaves is this thing
that's supposed to be open, thatthat really, that that isn't,
you mean, like

Adam Curry (23:42):
YouTube podcasts, I mean, yeah, come on this. Yeah,
that's what they're doing.They're breaking the system, and
that forces everybody to gothrough their on ramp and go
through Spotify on ramp and longterm that will that's not a
winning strategy, but right now,it's going to be pain. I think
we

Dave Jones (24:00):
have this thing in, you know, in the in the open
web, or in the on the web, wehave links, you know, and then
so, and they start with a URLscheme of HTTP or HTTPS, and
that scheme is a trigger thatthat every platform handles the

(24:24):
same way it always considersthis a link to some sort of web
request page. Podcasting justdoesn't have this equivalent. It
doesn't have a universal URLscheme that like the way it
works on what you're saying withDaniel, the way it works on, on
on the iPhone, is that podcastscheme. You know, it'll at

(24:50):
least, this was my experiencethe lat, any app can register
that podcast scheme. So whenyou're when you're hitting it,
whatever the. Last app youinstalled, that's the one that
catches it.

Yeah, here's an example of that. I also have
downcast installed on my Mac,and if I do it PC, colon, slash,
slash, which is supposed to befor iTunes podcast. It's that
old that should open an applepodcast, but right now that
prompts me to open in downcast.What

Adam Curry (25:21):
is happening here, gentlemen? Is we have just
scratched a very old scar and wehave opened up the wound down to
the bone. Yeah,

Dave Jones (25:32):
and you know, this is okay, like Nathan says in the
boardroom. I wasn't expecting aLinux user try to listen to an
apple podcast. If they want tolisten in a browser, they can
listen on EFM. Okay, so let me,let me talk about that for a
second, because you're right.Nathan, in this see what, what
we're building is going to havea very specific use case, very

(25:54):
specific and so the web isalready where this thing is
going to be so it doesn't makeit doesn't make any sense to
sort of like just go sidewaysover to another web player. Um,
well, it could in certaincircumstances, but, but not in
this one. But the thing is, so Ithink ultimately, what I'm what

(26:16):
I'm realizing, is that there'slike, for well established
shows, first shows that havedistribution, they're going to
episodes.fm is going to just bea godsend. It's like, boom,
right through,

Adam Curry (26:35):
yeah. If you have an iTunes ID, you mean well, or
even

Dave Jones (26:39):
just an HTTP Feed URL that is well known, that's
in these directories, yeah,yeah, yeah. So if, if my, if my
show was in Spotify, even youknow, then that search would
have returned it, and it wouldhave been a seamless transition,
like it would have been perfect,but for before new feed, yeah,
this use case, I think what theissue is is we're just going to

(27:03):
have to be opinionated aboutwhich apps we want people to
use. Well,

there are two kind of solutions with this. One
is that, yeah, you you beopinionated with it, and you
recommend those top apps. Andanyone who uses something other
than those top apps is probablygoing to be familiar enough with
their own app to be able tosearch for the podcast, but
telling people to search intheir app, I am against that.

(27:30):
The other approach that youcould take, yeah, you can also
do the smart kind of thing, andI've been doing that with a
feature of podgagement, where Idisplay, I detect the device
that's visiting the page, and Idisplay only what's compatible
with that device. And therecould be something there too,
kind of like, what with whatNathan does with episodes.fm,
where you can have it rememberyour selection, and that

(27:53):
remembering the selection leadsto the other thing do you know
about blueberries? Subscribe onandroid.com.

Dave Jones (28:01):
Yeah, that's nice some JavaScript or something.

It's something that the app developers had to
put into their app. I don't knowexactly how it works, but it is
something they had to put intotheir app, but it's super simple
code that they can support. Andwhat that allows it to do is
that if someone visits subscribeon android.com it will open that
podcast in their preferred app,or whatever app it is that they

(28:27):
have installed on their system,as long as it's supported. So
that kind of thing, that's whatwe need. But that, and also just
this idea, going back to kind ofan abandoned thing in
podcasting, 2.0 is the fastfollow idea. That's really what
we need. Here is some way thatpeople can quickly follow a

(28:49):
podcast from whatever app, bothclicking a link inside of that
app as well as opening reallyany podcast link, if possible,
to automatically trigger openingthat in their preferred app, and
some of that, I know we'relimited because of what you can
do with the mobile operatingsystem, but there are certain
things that you can do withthese URL schemas and the the

(29:15):
JavaScript tricks or URLpatterns to potentially remember
a favorite app, like what Nathanis doing with episodes.fm.

Dave Jones (29:24):
Yeah, I think, I think this, you know, I don't
expect this to be, I don't know,solved ever fully in a way
that's satisfactory, which, youknow, I think the solution we're
all looking for, if we could alljust sit down in room with with
the platforms, and say, youknow, with the mobile platforms,
and say, okay, look, this iswhat we want. I think we would

(29:45):
all come up with something like,when I click on a podcast,
colon, slash, slash, link, itpops up a list and ask me which
installed players I want towhich, which one of these do we
want to use that that's like,this beautiful, you know. A
system that we would all want.It's probably a pipe dream to
think that's ever going tohappen any, you know, ever, but

(30:08):
especially not anytime soon. Butyou know, in the meantime, you
know this, yeah, like you said,I think we're going to have to
just be, not be afraid, to beopinionated about, hey, here's a
bunch. Here's my use case. This,this, this thing I'm building,
and I'm speaking as just generaldeveloper here, this thing I'm

(30:30):
building has these needs. Itneeds live support or funding
tag support, or blah, blah,blah, you list all the things it
needs, and then you say, okay,which apps fit that criteria?
Which apps do I, you know, dothose things? And you say, Okay,
well, these seven apps do that.Well, I'm just going to

(30:52):
recommend those apps, and I'mjust going to link out to those
things, and I'm not even, I'mjust not going to worry about
Spotify or Apple or these otherthings, because, I mean,
podcasters, clearly, you know,have Adam's listenership, he's
moved from on no agenda. You'vemoved your a massive amount of
people from, from just standardapps, oh, yeah, pre installed

(31:16):
apps, over to other apps.

Adam Curry (31:17):
Yeah. Thank you Apple for not updating.

Dave Jones (31:21):
Yeah. I mean, like, if you ask your listeners to
consider using this other app,many of them will. And if you
just give them that option whenyou link out, well, a lot of
them will also just go get thatapp. That's, I think we're a
little afraid to be opinionated,I guess, and so. And I'm
learning to sort of live withthat discomfort.

Adam Curry (31:41):
I'm looking at the top apps for no agenda, pod
verse, 13% at number two.Podcast addicts, eight and a
half. Overcast seven. Podcastguru, six. These are big
numbers. I mean, they're smallerthan Apple podcasts, which is
34% and that's your changeafter, after this week,

(32:03):
fountain, 4.6 of course, there'szero Spotify in there because
we're not on Spotify, and ithasn't hurt me.

Dave Jones (32:14):
Yeah, in because I think a lot of people don't mind
it, Spotify is, is like apodcast app of opportunity. I
don't think anybody ever goeschooses that as their first one.
You know, it's convenientsometimes.

Adam Curry (32:32):
Well, you know, in other countries, like Italy, I
know, as an example, Spotifyreally launched podcasting. They
weren't really listening topodcasts. And these past two
years, Spotify did a big Blitz.They got a lot of famous
comedians, and they put them allon Spotify. So when people say,
you on Spotify, and I say no,that you could see them go, Oh,

(32:54):
okay. And I just say, No, we'reon these other ones. But I
agree, just we being opinionatedis not a bad thing.

I think that I want to challenge that idea of
it's not hurting me. And I did awhole episode about this once on
the audacity to podcast that wereally can't know that unless
you have a parallel universe tosplit test things in, you really
can't know. Are you missingaudience? Because you've done in
one platform.

Adam Curry (33:24):
I've done the A B and the A B. I only have one
metric. I was just helpingsomeone with this thing. I have
one metric. Am I receivingenough value in return for the
value I'm putting out there? Wewere on Spotify for a bit when
they first launched. Theyingested us. I had never asked
for it. Didn't even know it. Andthen, and then I discovered it,

(33:47):
and I said, I said, take it off.They took it off. And there were
some people who said, Oh, you'reno longer on Spotify. But what
didn't change, Daniel, is thevalue we

received, right? Because that's the metric
that matters to you. In thiscase, that's

Adam Curry (34:03):
the only metric in podcasting that matters.

People value different things. So for some
people, the value is they justwant a big audience. Like in my
podcast, I teach this profitparadigm, which profit stands
for popularity, relationships,opportunity, fun, income and
tangibles so different ways thatpeople can get value from their
audience, as well as give valueto their audience through their

(34:31):
podcast. And so for some people,they just want to be popular.
They just want a big audience.They want their audience
listening in whatever app theywant. But then there are the
others,

Adam Curry (34:42):
and I would, and I would be okay with that, Daniel,
if, if the if I could just be inany app people want to use, but
the fact that I need to sign asign an agreement with both
Apple and with Spotify that'salready breaking the basic
agreement. So I. As an American,I will not stand for that. Yeah,

(35:05):
yeah. I'm telling you, that'sthe part that is pissing me off.
It's like, that's the onlything. It's like, yeah, okay,
you want, you want to beSpotify, great, but don't force
me to sign some kind of terms ofservice with you. That's not
okay, that that's total horsecrap. So now with Apple, and

(35:26):
this is the one thing I'd loveto still find a workaround for.
For our project, you cansubscribe manually to a podcast.
You can just input the feed intointo Apple. Now, go ahead.

There's a very good reason to do that for any
shows that are controversial orconcerned that they might be de
platformed in any way, because Ikeep harping on this since iOS
14.5 you know that catastrophicevent that came out since then,
Apple no longer subscribespeople directly to RSS feeds.
Now, when you press subscribe orfollow in Apple podcast, you are

(36:03):
connected to Apple's proxy ofthat podcast about that. So if
Apple or the podcaster removethemselves from Apple podcast,
the audience is disconnectedfrom the podcast. 301,
redirects, do not save this. Itis all about the audience is now
following the listing, thecatalog listing of the podcast.

(36:24):
So like that whole thing thathappened with Alex Jones was
before iOS 14.5 and back thenwhen it happened, when Apple
kicked him out of Apple podcastsand Stitcher were really the
first people to kick him out.But when Apple did it, he didn't
lose any of his existing Applepodcast audience at that time.
If that happened today,

Adam Curry (36:45):
because the app actually was subscribed to the
feed and not to

happen today, though, he would lose his entire
apple podcast audience. So thisis a big reason why anyone who's
concerned about freedom ofspeech or censorship, corporate
censorship, governmentcensorship, for whatever reason,
they should not recommendsubscribing from a catalog like
Apple and certainly not Spotify.Spotify has always been this

(37:11):
way, but Apple switched to beingthis way because Apple can stand
between the audience. Applecould even prevent a single
episode from going out. We know

Adam Curry (37:20):
they do we know they do this. We know we know they do
it. We know that Spotify doesit. Specific episodes are de
platformed,

and they have if

Dave Jones (37:31):
you're ahead, you know, if you're somebody who
listens to a lot of podcasts, orsomebody who's familiar enough
with podcasts to um, uh, to knowwhat to do, to even subscribe to
one, then I feel like it's verydifficult to just live in

(37:53):
Spotify, because you're going tohave so many instances where
either something you want is noton it, or you have a private
feed, or some it, it, I guesswhat I'm saying is it's it
takes, it doesn't take much foreveryone to to hit a roadblock

(38:13):
at some point where they have toget some other app. Now, whether
that's just the apple podcastdefault app, or the, you know,
YouTube default, whatever thatmight that's, you know, that's
fine, but it, it's, it seemslike it's because Spotify is so
closed, gated, um, againstanything that's, you can't use

(38:36):
our private RSS feeds with it.So if, you know, if you have a a
private, like membership feed,like I do for America this week.
It's a it's a private feedcoming out of sub stack. I
couldn't even use that in sub inSpotify if I wanted to, right?
So it doesn't take much beforeyou can get a barrier and have
to use some other app. Anyway.Let

Adam Curry (38:55):
me tell you something about human nature
from historical perspective.Back in the 70s, growing up in
Europe, the Netherlandsspecifically, but it was the
same for the for the BBC was thesame for the German all public
broadcasters. So there were fourradio stations in the
Netherlands, and one, I thinkthere were 2am repeaters of what

(39:18):
was already on the FM station.So the popular music station at
the time Hilversum three, itwould start at 7am it literally
the signal would not be off. Thesignal beyond would go like,
Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom Hill forsome three Doom, Doom, Doom,
they would just repeat untilseven, and then at 1130 would go
off the air. Now it's 24/7 andthe pirate radio ships were in

(39:42):
the North Sea playing the musicthat the kids wanted to hear. So
we were listening to long wave.Not am long wave. You know,
that's basically, yeah, thereyou go, perfect timing, and
you'll see it. And you'd have toretune, you have to kind of turn
your body sometimes to get thesignal, but at least we could

(40:05):
hear the music we wanted. Andpeople will do all kinds of
things to get the content theywant. Now, the thing that is
this elusive discoverymechanism, which I don't believe
in, in podcasting, becausethere's inherently no
algorithms, maybe Spotifyrecommends some stuff or
whatever. That's a differentstory. That's what platforms are

(40:26):
good at, is figuring out whatyou want and recommending
something to you. But ingeneral, I found that people
don't discover no agenda or anyof our other podcasts. It's
someone else saying, Hey, haveyou heard this podcast? No, can
I get on Spotify? No, it's onlyon x, y or z. People will do
that. They will do that to getsomething that some their buddy

(40:49):
has told them, or that they'vebeen listening to previously,
and they can't they'll dowhatever. They'll do whatever
they want to get that content.There should be no fear about
that at all.

Dave Jones (40:59):
Yeah, especially when it doesn't cost money,
right? It's like, if some, ifyou say, Hey, you should go
check out this show, and it'sgonna, I see that it's gonna
cost me some, some, some money.I may pause, but if it's free,
and it's just doing a couple ofthings to jump downloading an
app or something like that, Idon't, I don't know that that's
the he. It's just not that bigof a barrier. It doesn't seem

(41:23):
just too bad.

Adam Curry (41:24):
It's too bad. But, okay, whatever. Well,

Dave Jones (41:28):
the directory stuff like, there is no, there's no
directory of blogs, no, youknow, but somehow that there
was,

Adam Curry (41:36):
it was called Google Reader, and it got ruined. It
got taken down because, oh, wecan't make money on it,

Dave Jones (41:43):
but somehow RSS feed readers are, you know, still
kicking, going strong. Got alot, got lots of loyal users. We
podcasting. Podcasting has thisidea of having directories. You
know, obviously we have one. Butthe to me, the idea of having a
podcast, maybe this is where therubber meets the road. For me,

(42:06):
the idea of having a podcastdirectory, but then it make
making me have to sign up andagree to a EULA in order to put
stuff in it. That's not apodcast direct. I mean, that's
that's not,

Adam Curry (42:24):
it's not. We now know that we know what Spotify
does, and now we know that Appledoes the same, the exact same
thing. They are ingesting yourcontent just like YouTube does
through the RSS feed, and thenthey're doing whatever they
want, right? They haveinterrupted that, that holy
connection between the podcasterand the listener, this

Dave Jones (42:47):
is why we did this is why we've done so many of the
things that we've done with theindex, making the feed, making
the database downloadable, youknow, weekly, making it where
it's instant ingestion. Becausethe the idea is, you want it to
everything to be decentralized.You want there to be zero

(43:07):
barriers to being found, zero,you know, because it's like, if
you if a, if an RSS feed is,excuse me, if a podcast feed is
out, is out there, and it wantsto be in the index, it's, boom,
done. I mean, you don't justsign anything, you know. I mean,
we're gonna find you. We'regonna stick it in there. Whether

(43:29):
you know, without your, youknow, without your input anyway,
and if you want it out, you can.But that's to me, that's a
directory. Yes, that's an actuallike discovery mechanism. If
there's a

Adam Curry (43:41):
there's your discovery, right there's your
discovery. That's yourdiscovery, right there.

Dave Jones (43:46):
So I'm just griping now. No,

Adam Curry (43:49):
no, no, it's so this is actually good news, because
this we can move into anothertopic here. I am delighted,
absolutely delighted with the AIslop. Now I have a prayer. I'm
going to be honest with you. Myprayer is I would like all the

(44:09):
social networks to be filledwith AI slops that become
unattractive and unusable. Thatis my and I'm not kidding. This
is an actual prayer I do becauseI think it's so, so horrible.
What's happening with socialmedia? There's

Dave Jones (44:24):
probably a Catholic saint for that.

Adam Curry (44:28):
We got to find him, and now we're seeing that the
free hosting company, becausethere's really only one free
hosting company, which isSpotify for podcasters, they are
going to be filling up Spotifywith so much AI slop. We don't

(44:50):
even automatically ingestSpotify for podcasters anymore.
Do we?

Dave Jones (44:55):
No now has to be submitted. No, exactly, it

Adam Curry (44:57):
has to be submitted. And so the. The irony of almost
every everyone talk, oh, AI andpodcasting, oh yeah, it's great,
and I'm a show notes andeverything that, what, what
they're doing, AI podcast. Oh,we have to have tags for that.
Oh no, we can't have that. Like,this is the best thing that

(45:18):
could have ever happened,because this is not really
getting submitted to the index.This is all all this nonsense is
going to fill up Spotify withcrap. And I could not be more
happy about it. Going to berunning after themselves.

Spotify wasn't already full of crap. Okay,

Unknown (45:36):
okay. Ding

Dave Jones (45:40):
is AI. Chad F says AI is slowly ruining value for
value music, is it? Well,

Adam Curry (45:47):
that's really true, but I think that's really
subjective. If, if you listen toa song and you like it, and for
instance, I'll give you anexample why I'm I'm not going to
agree with that statement. Mowho is a who is, actually is a
music producer. That's, that'swhat he was doing before I met
him from mofax, he has beenactually making some really good

(46:11):
music with his own lyrics, andhe's come up with these crazy,
super prompts. And he sent me acouple of songs, and I had no
idea it was AI. The vocalsdidn't sound your typical, you
know, AI type vibe. I was like,I'm okay with that, if, if I
want to, you know, I we all,hey, I listen. I danced and

(46:34):
listened to disco. Yeah, comeon. It was basically a that's
basically it. That was thebeginning of AI music. I mean,
we went through this with, oh,it's not real drums. That's a
drum machine. That's no good.It's ruining the music business.
Well, arguably, no, no. So Idon't think it's ruining value
for value music at all. If it'sa good song, it's a good song,

(46:56):
it doesn't matter. You know, ifI hit some washboards and
buckets, or if I had ai dosomething, if I like it, then I
like it. And if people don'tlike it, then I shouldn't be
playing it. If they go, that'snasty. I can hear it's aI I
don't like it. How is thatruining everything? If people, I
think there will be AI, music,podcasts, I see no reason why

(47:18):
there wouldn't be.

Let's dive into that.

Adam Curry (47:24):
That was funny, Daniel. Let's unpack this. Yes,
exactly. Let's dive into, let'sdo a deep dive on that. Yes,
exactly. And, I mean, I like allof these notebook LM podcasts
because they become sorecognizable and they're, I
mean, some of them are actuallyit's hilarious. I mean, I can, I
can listen to. It's limited,because now everyone's sending

(47:47):
me, hey, look what I did. I putraccoon butt in there. Eight
minutes on raccoon, but it'sfunny for 30 seconds, and then
it's not funny anymore. But asthese voices will become
changeable, I listened to, Ilistened to an AI podcast. I
listened to, we talked aboutthat on the last show. What is
it called

Dave Jones (48:07):
the news and tech news or something. Hold

Adam Curry (48:10):
on a second. Let me. Let me open my secret project.
No, my secret project. So willtell me exactly what that is.
It's um, here. Now, where is it?Uh, oh, boy. Uh, that's
interesting. I don't see it now.The projects broke. Dave, no,

(48:33):
did

Dave Jones (48:33):
it break? No, it wouldn't surprise me.

Adam Curry (48:36):
No, it's working. It's working, but I just don't
see it in here, the automateddaily, okay? And, and so here's
someone who takes news storiesand inputs these new stories,
and it's not these two offensivedeep dive people. It's a pretty
unoffensive, non offensivevoice, and it's just giving me a

(48:59):
summary of these news storiesand and I kind of like it.
There's zero personality. Isjust, it's just reading it to
me, which is what I suggestedmonths ago. I said, How come my
app can't i can't subscribe to ablog, and the app just reads me
that blog. That'd be fine. So Idon't have a problem. I don't
see, you know, also this wholetagging AI content. I mean, come

(49:22):
on, what's next? Tag Photoshopjobs. I don't see it as a huge
issue. Personally, I like thefact that it's filling up
Spotify with crappy podcast,because after the novelty wears
off, they're crappy. It's notit's the content.

What it does help is makes the authentic
podcast really stand out. Like Iwent on a rant about this in one
of my episodes recently, I likebeing in the kitchen and cooking
and stuff. And whenever I goonto YouTube to try and find the
best whatever potato peeler, Ifind all of these videos that
are just AI. Generated crapwhere they just looked at what

(50:02):
has the top ratings on Amazon.Let's promote it with affiliate
links. Let's do this genericvoiceover that tells you really
nothing. So there's so much ofthat out there that when I see a
video of someone actually usingthe product, their opinion, to
me, skyrockets, because they area real person, actually using
it, not just talking about itbecause it's popular, but

(50:25):
they're sharing their opinionand experience. And let's so
much more.

Adam Curry (50:29):
Let's be honest, the algo didn't recommend those to
you. Had to do some work to findit. Am I correct? Yes, yeah.
Usually like second page, andthis is I went through this
with, with Didi Stein. You know,the whole P Diddy thing. So I'm,
I'm looking for information onDiddy, and, whoa, there must be

(50:50):
1000 AI generated YouTubechannels about Diddy. And
because you're watching it, andyou hear the voice like, okay,
you know, it's like, I know thisis not really a person speaking,
but I can handle that. And thenthe images just, you know, they
rotate, like, I've just sawthat. It's all B roll. And after

(51:12):
about 45 minutes, like, okay, noone has anything. This is all
crap. It's all from headlines,until I finally found one, one
person who I thought was, youknow, had had some good
information. I could followthem, but the AI stuff, it
actually, it's a big turnoff.It's a big turnoff. It's, it's,
it's slop. It is slop. All ofit, I just like saying slop.

Dave Jones (51:36):
You've got me so completely distracted debugging
the secret project. It'sworking.

Adam Curry (51:42):
It's working. Okay, I just don't. Don't worry. I did
find

Dave Jones (51:46):
a bug, though. I did find

Adam Curry (51:48):
a bug. Don't debug on the show man,

Dave Jones (51:53):
air funding, URL does not have a default value.
That's okay.

Adam Curry (52:00):
Okay, that's why I didn't show up. Okay, yeah,

Dave Jones (52:02):
I got I got you, I got you live debugging.

Adam Curry (52:05):
So do we need to talk about AI podcast anymore?
Have we handled this? Have weall given our please? No, okay,
please, no. Pod ID. Pod ID needsto be discussed.

Dave Jones (52:15):
Yes. Have you seen this? Daniel, seen pod ID?

Talking with Russell, a little bit about it.
Can you explain it for me, aswell as anyone else who's
unfamiliar?

Dave Jones (52:27):
I think I can. Yes, it's so well. I mean, it's it's
multifaceted. So, oh, I just sawRussell harrows picture. I have
not seen that before. I

Adam Curry (52:41):
saw a picture. I saw a picture of his bloody ear. Oh,
yeah. He posted on the he had,he had some kind of, is like a
brain operation, and he had togo to the ER, he posted all this
on the on podcasting Next, onsocial, and they said I thought
he

Dave Jones (52:59):
may have done a speech in Pennsylvania. Look,
they

Adam Curry (53:02):
actually look worse than Trump's ear. And he did the
right thing. He says, you know,don't click on this unless you
can handle blood. I'm like, oh,man,

Dave Jones (53:12):
of course, he's baiting you at that point. How
could

Adam Curry (53:15):
I not? It's like, this has got to be some
cheesecake. Cheesecake.

Dave Jones (53:21):
Okay? So pod, pod id.org. Is pod id.org. Is, well,
let me, I'm trying to figure outwhere to start. Okay, the person
tag. Let's start with the persontag. The person tag is a very
simple tag, sort of it has youcan define a name, an h ref,

(53:47):
which is a web link to the tosome place on the web that is
associated with this person,maybe their home page, or their
business, or whatever this Sothere's an A, there's a href,
the person's name, and an image,a link to an image of the
person, like a bug, an avatar.And then you can define a role

(54:12):
that they're going to be on theshow, like a guest host, the
audio engineer, whatever. Sothat's the person tag, and then
you have, so then pod ID issomething that that Russell
created as sort of a layer overthe top of the person tag, and
that is, I'm thinking of it likeGravatar for podcasting that

(54:38):
that may not be fair, butthat's, That's kind of the way I
think about this, I think, andthis is what I think he's doing.
I think he is crawling all ofthe podcasts. I don't know how
he determines which ones tocrawl and which ones not to or
if he's crawling all 4 million.I don't know what he's how many

(54:58):
he's doing. You. But he's caughtcrawling through tons of
podcasts to find person tags,and then he's sort of bringing
those in and making themsearchable through pod id.org
but then, but what you have todo is you have to sign up, sort
of like Gravatar. You have tosign up and then put in your,

(55:24):
you know, like your emailaddress and and your link to
your website and some stuff,some identifying information.
And then, then pod ID willassociate you with these
different person tags that haveappeared across the corpus of
feeds. So then, when people areusing the pod id.org API, they

(55:47):
can find all easily find all ofyour appearances based on a hash
of the href or a hash of youremail address.

It seems interesting, and still, though,
I wonder, do we need a thirdparty service to do that?
Because, like, you think ofGravatar, not everything
supports Gravatar. Some places,you have to upload your image
manually. Some of them, you it'sfrustrating that you can't
upload your image, and the onlyway you can change your image is

(56:20):
by going to gravatar andcreating an account. I think
though hot ID, at least from myunderstanding what you've said
and what Russell has said is,seems like it's an optional
third party service, kind oflike episodes.fm that someone
could use if they want to, andif they don't want to, then they

(56:40):
don't need to go over there andsign up. Here's

Adam Curry (56:43):
my question. I would like to see some numbers on the
use case of how important it isfor people to be able to find
all the other podcasts thisperson appeared on. I have a
feeling that is a very, very lownumber. This, to me, sounds like
it was created by people wholike this functionality and need

(57:06):
it for research purposes. I'mnot sure it's a it's a user use
case. One

The tough thing with it is it really its
effectiveness really depends onpeople actually populating the
person tag. Well, that's forsure. Like, if I wanted to,
since I've been a guest on a lotof podcasts in the past, if I
wanted to create a quick archiveof here all of the episodes I've
ever been on, I can't do that bysearching the person tag,
because not all of thosepodcasts have searched the

(57:34):
person tag or used it.

Dave Jones (57:36):
Okay, now I've got this is interesting. So when I
first signed up for pod ID thismorning. I didn't see initially.
There was nothing there, and hesaid they crawl every five
hours. And so now I've gone backand it says you have maybe a, c

(57:57):
says you may be featured onthese episodes. And so I've got
1234, I've got four maybes andone definite. And it says we
matched you on these podcast andepisodes. And it says podcasting
2.0 so that one's automatic. Itfound me immediately there. And

(58:17):
then there's other there's theseother four, and they're all
things that I've they're allfeeds that I've done. Yeah, I
don't know that I even put theperson tag in those. Here's what

Adam Curry (58:27):
I here's Okay. So first of all, a centralized
resource is just not a goodidea, period. One of our biggest
fears, if Dave and I talk aboutstuff even jokingly, it's like,
dude, how do we make sure thisthing, this index, continues,
because we're gonna die. We'regoing to die. I hate to tell you
all we're gonna die now. We'llbe partying in heaven. This is

(58:48):
the good news, but we're gonnadie. A plan for that, plan for
that so, but so with this plans,you know, we have the with,
there's a lot of differentplans, but in in general, Dave
goes, a lot of problems happen,a lot of problems with a lot of
projects and a lot of apps.That's the index. So now, if we
bootstrap all kinds of othercentralized things on top of it,

(59:10):
there's your main problem. WhatI find interesting, and this is
what kind of piqued my interest.And so let me step back. It's a
display purposes thing. I willput in whatever Daniel J Lewis
wants me to put in. I usuallyjust select a picture and put
that into the person tag, and Iknow that apps that support this

(59:33):
will show the picture that Ichose, which is, I love having
that control, because I canchoose the worst picture or the
best picture. Oh, it's all up tome, I, after all, control my
feed and whatever link, and itmay be something that Daniel
wants to promote today and whichmay be different from yesterday,
and he may not want to have toupdate some centralized thing

(59:54):
that changes everything. So Ilike the fact that there's a lot
of flexibility, and it's forthat episode. Code in the feed
that I'm producing that I wantto have look a certain way in
the apps. I want thatinformation to be passed
through. What I find compellingabout what Russell has done is I
wouldn't mind having a resourcethat I can go to and say, what

(01:00:18):
other podcasts has this personappeared on and because he's
already claimed to be scraping,you know, transcripts and doing
all kinds of stuff, that couldbe a valuable research tool.

Daniel J. Lewis (01:00:33):
And that thing does already exist, like with
podchaser.

Adam Curry (01:00:37):
Yeah, well, I've never used podchaser, so So I
wouldn't know. Well, there yougo. There's kind of your answer.
So is it really something that'snecessary to have this
centralized resource and thepain? Because it's painful, it's
look how much effort it took.Okay, we had some early
adopters, but it's been verypainful to get the adoption of
the index to be seen as, as a asa valid thing. You know where,

(01:01:03):
where you can go, and you canget numbers that you that are be
valuable if you're looking foryou know what happened the last
30 days, 60 days, 90 days, canI? Can I find this podcast for
sure? You know all of thesethings. It's taken years now to
do that for individuals and haveall the individual content
producers, I don't know. I mean,I don't know there was pod ping

(01:01:27):
made things a lot easier for usand having big hosting companies
jump in. But you know, youliterally have to have everybody
retool for this. I It seems likea really heavy lift.

Dave Jones (01:01:39):
Okay, so here, I like Go ahead, Daniel,

this big problem that we're facing is
basically this war betweencentralized and decentralized,
and that happens every day inpodcasting, because podcast
consumption and distribution aredecentralized, but discovery is
basically centralized, becausediscovery typically happens in a
way inside the apps, and so itis centralized to whatever

(01:02:06):
catalog that app is using.That's the centralization that
I'm talking about here. So thisidea of pod ID or pod chaser or
IMDb or anything like that,those are just other centralized
sources of information thatmaybe does need to be
centralized, but then we'retrying to make it fit in with a
decentralized system.

I'm sorry. Russell has put in some more information
since I last looked at podcastindex dot social about this, and
he's so I've got a little bitmore background here. He he's
saying that they use pod ping,they watch pod ping, and then
they just parse feeds that comethrough with POD ping, and

(01:02:51):
that's how they look for newperson tax. That's cool. That's
a great use of pod ping. A likethat is great. And again, it's
so efficient. You're not nothaving to go back and, you know,
just like scrape, scrape thewhole universe every all the
time. Perfect. Perfect. And

maybe, and maybe, when a pod ping comes through
with a different link, or toimage, or a different link to an
h ref in the pod thing. Add itto the record. Don't replace,
but add.

I think what Russell's doing is creating. I
think this is mine. This is mygut. Is what he is creating is a
way, is a tool for the host, forhosting companies to use to find
to help their customers, findpeople to put into person tags

(01:03:50):
so that I can say, Okay, I'mgonna go. I'm gonna have a guest
on my show, and I'm in thedashboard of a hosting company,
and I'm like, okay, this personis, you know, I'm gonna have
Daniel J Lewis on here. So I'mtyping Daniel J and then it's
gonna search pod, pod id.org, inthe background, and find some
some hits. They're like, Ohyeah, that's, that's him. So I

(01:04:12):
hit it. And then it pulls in andjust base, because it already
has seen your person tag onother places. It's gonna give
you options to just go ahead andpop that right into your new to
your new episode tonight, likethat. That's cool. Yeah,

that's providing a service, an agency
level service, to theseproviders, so that the providers
can make an easier experiencefor the podcasters. I'm all for
that doesn't listen

notes, provide that API as well.

Listen notes, the for the Listen notes,

pod chaser, pod chaser, yeah, yes.

Or provide listen notes might actually as
well I don't write, remember,right? So these services

do exist. So this

is cool. This is like, this would be a service
like, this is a great. Tool,because this is a service like
pod chaser, but it is, but it isbased on the dis, decentralized,
non owned data of, I mean, theway pod chaser works is they
had, they just have people like,hoofing it, like just doing,

(01:05:18):
like, manually inputting stuff,I don't know. Yeah, they had a
farm of people. They

should look at pod ping. What are they thinking?
Well, what Russell

essentially created was a, was a, a a clone of pod
chaser, but that is based onactual feed, structured feed
data that nobody owns, which isbeautiful. And then, you know,
and it's, it's a centralizedservice, yes, but it's a
centralized service made to tofacilitate ease the easy use of

(01:05:50):
this data by other centralizedservices, which are the hosting
companies. I mean, hostingcompanies are centralized as
well. I mean, they're anaggregate of tons of feeds and
that they control. So, I mean,as long I think it's cool, man.
I mean, I don't know that weNess. I don't know that we have
to change the person tag. I

don't think he's suggesting that. Is he? He
started off

suggesting it, but I'm not sure where we are on
that yet. Oh, because I thoughtit was clear, go ahead. I don't
mind putting in some sort ofhash, like a hash of something.
But at the same time, I think Ifeel like there's already enough
data in the person tag where youcould just detachable already,
like, so, okay, let, let'severybody wants a hash, you

(01:06:36):
know, because they want auniversal ID, a unique ID for
each for each person tag. Butyou could do it this way. You
could, you can recreate thisthis way. Daniel J Lewis has two
sort of identities that he wantsto use. One is as maybe a, you
know, a podcast consultant, andanother one is, in his personal

(01:06:58):
capacity, his consultantidentity is has a specific href
and a specific by a pig avatarand the name Daniel J Lewis. His
personal capacity has adifferent href, a different
picture URL, and also the exactsame name, Daniel J Lewis,

(01:07:20):
though, if you just hash theentire tag, minus the minus the
the role, if you just hash thosethree things, the name, the
picture, URL and the href, youget a unique you get two
different values. One is goingto be his personal, and one's

(01:07:41):
going to be his professional.And you could very much pump
that in, you know, into acentralized service like pod
id.org, and then, and then, whensomebody tries to find Daniel J
Lewis, they'll see both of thoseidentities, and they'll just
choose the one that'sappropriate. Like, I don't, I
don't know that we necessarilyneed to add another attribute to

(01:08:03):
the person tag. Is what I'msaying? No, I'm with you. Do you
agree, Daniel, or is that? Am Icrazy?

I could maybe see something like a directory
listing, because there is theidea of, well, should the person
Tag link to this person'swebsite, or link to something
that does point out other placeswhere they've been. But then
again, that's what the persontag is supposed to do, because

(01:08:32):
the podcast app should see thatand then be able to link to
other places. So even like rightnow, do we have the ecosystem
where the podcast app, if I'm inpodcast guru and I see Dave
Jones in the app on an episodeI'm listening to, and I tap on
your name, is that going to takeme to a whole list of other

(01:08:53):
podcasts you've been on? Theapps would probably have to
process all of that themselves,unless they use a third party
service. So I kind of see whathe's doing as maybe a service
for the developers. And maybethere is the possibility of

(01:09:14):
blinking something inside of thefeed in the person tag, because
how otherwise would I can takepodcast guru. How would podcast
guru know how to discover all ofthose other episodes if you're
linking to podcast index.org andyour person tag, but you could
then add this pod ID orsomething else as an additional

(01:09:38):
attribute that is, in a way,it's like the publisher feed,
but for the person, in a sense,and that then makes it so much
easier for the app developers toinstantly populate that list of
everywhere else this person hasbeen.

I think, I think what, as I'm listening to you
talk, I feel like, what. Sothere's still room here. So you
have, you have Russell'sservice, which is meeting this,
this, this need. He's, you know,again, he's a hosting company.
So he's, this is a service thathe would, you know, that he
wants, and that fits that usecase. This guy's obviously got

(01:10:19):
other use cases too, but I thinkthat's a great fit for that type
of thing. But then I feel likethere's also this other
possibility, still, there'sstill a need for just a flat
out, just a flat list thatexists somewhere that's doing
the thing that I mentioned awhile ago, and sort of the thing

(01:10:40):
that you're talking about,Daniel, where you have just,
just a flat JSON list, yay, JSONof of name, you know, name and
attribute and hash, and thenwhen this, when you know when an
app or some service wants tojust look up when they see

(01:11:03):
something, they can just matchhashes. Like, I don't know that
the hash just has to be in thetag. You know, that's the thing.

The hash could change too. You get one
character off on a URL, likejust a trailing slash, yes or
no, and the hash will bedifferent. Well, that's

what happened. That's what Okay, so initially,
Russell posted back and said,That's why I initially was not
seeing any any hits, is becausethe the URL in the href that
I've always used has been anHTTP link, and he his service
required HTTPS.

You're subjected to a man in the middle attack on
your information. Dave, you'renot interrupting everywhere. Oh,
bad to bad.

I know, horrible. And so that. So it didn't, they
didn't match up. So he, hechanged the system a while, just
a few minutes ago, to be to justtreat everything as HTTPS So,
yeah, so that then, so thatfixed the issue and but I don't,
I think, I think there's a lotthis. I like this service a lot.

(01:12:11):
I think it's a I think it's coolhaving to go through here and it
says, maybe you've been on theseepisodes, I've got some
potential matches. And so foreach one, I can choose, do I
want to sort of tag myself asthis is a an appropriate hit to

(01:12:32):
be returned into pod id.org,API, and I think that's a great
way to do it, because that givesme some control. I don't have
to, because since, because theseare hits, what, what this has
done, I think, is matched up myemail address with what was in
the feed, and that he's notincluding those by default,
which I think is, again, theright choice. I can choose

(01:12:55):
whether to associate myself withthat or not. The person tag
match was, was an instant hit,and it went right into the API.
I don't know. I like it. I likeit a lot.

Dave, we have you for another 15 is that the same
same time frame we're on today?Yeah, okay, then we shall move
on to one last quick topic.Okay, no song today. We got no
time for music, no

song, yeah, play a song, play a song, but then we
will, okay,

all right. Well, I pulled the song particularly.
Jay Lewis, you can what.

I condone it. I condone this. You condone

this. Okay, Daniel, I chose this one for you and for
me because I love it. Hambleton,you're killing me on 2.0 sunrise

Unknown (01:13:41):
coming. I'm guilty again. Rooster crowing. It's not
the first time I see you. Kissmy neck, pick me up again. Oh,
pick me up again. It feels likeI am The

(01:14:16):
slow dead Lord is.

(01:14:48):
Oh, Jesus, your King.
I thought you were a ghost justin there. Didn't care, always

(01:15:11):
mad, looking for the bad in me.I compared you to my dad. To be
honest, I've been wondering ifyou could really love me.
Wondering if you could really
love me. You said you reallylove me, and it feels like

(01:15:40):
heaven. It feels like,
dying.

(01:16:02):
We with kindness,
don't she only I can't

(01:16:30):
believe it. With your

me. Hambleton, you're killing me, and the
boardroom chatter definitelyweighs out the message of that
song, we're all going to hell.

The boardroom is basically a bunch of 15 year

old boys. I'm up front. I'm up front. Man, it's a
value for value song, so if youdidn't boost while you were
listening to it, you can alwaysgo back and you just even pause
it, and you can boost. And allof that works in the modern
podcast apps. Since, well, we'rerunning out of time, we need to
thank some people for this valuefor value operation that we're

(01:18:16):
running here. I'll read a coupleof the boosts that came in. In
fact, one just came in frombooberry. Whoa, 30,003 SATs,
which is a nice Palindrome, andhe has a link here to the split
kit with some video. Oh, allright, I gotta check this out
first. Are

you gonna click that?

Yeah, I'm gonna click that. Let me see. Whoa,
oh, my God, this is some kind ofmassive, massive boost board
thing on split kit. Not evensure what. This is. Huge shout
out to Stephen B for these livesplit kit watch pages. He says
it reminds me of being back onMySpace, almost. And I love it.
He's also implemented usingchapter artwork instead of

(01:18:59):
video. Very deeply legal. Okay,well, I gotta look at all this,
man. This is, this is, I'll putit in the show notes so people
can take a look at that. And Ihave no idea what I'm looking at
right now, but you know thatit's good stuff, because these
guys are crazy. 2222 from coleMcCormick, speaking of
centralized versusdecentralized, I had a meeting
with Zach from indie hub. Ah,yes. His vision is to be the

(01:19:22):
center of the new model forfundraising and distributing
movies and TV, while usingdecentralized tools and tags to
enable that. Yes, I like Zach alot. I think he's got he's on a
good path there. I put my shortfilm, the break in on there, and
people can use the site to watchit, support it. And I enabled
the odd the option to distributewith RSS. Ah, he's doing hosting
too. The cinema side ofpodcasting seems to need a

(01:19:45):
centralized thing to show peoplewhat's possible. Well, sometimes
you do need that. That's cool.I'll take a look at that salty
crayon 1111, Adam and Dave. Ilook at the AI as parody. If it
makes me laugh, I play it. Butthe voice that sounds like JCD
using a. Intro, boots on theground and subs in the water and
the bunker, voice for music, andthen it gets put into the AI
sludge bucket. Okay, let usknow. Triple seven. Boost from

(01:20:10):
Chad F Thank you, Chad. 1776freedom. Boost from salty crayon
hero boardroom, a little V forV. Housekeeping. Fountain looks
like the value time splits is onthe fritz again, with not time
stamping the music and artistsand fountain artists. If it's
not in the index, don't promotethe legacy apps you if you want
to earn crackers, stay onSpotify and wave Lake. He says,

(01:20:32):
we can get an organized listthat says music, podcasts and
podcasts separate from eachother. Hold on a second. Can we
get an organized list that saysmusic podcasts and podcasts
separate from each other, fromthe last boardroom. Yes, more V
for V wallets. Jesus take thewheel. This is off the rails in
the pipe. Go podcasting. Yeah,whoa, he

fell on the board there. Well, Ellen beats.

Ellen beats has a pretty good list, from what I've
seen in beats, yeah, another333, from Chad F and Dr Scott
boosted the bat signal, andthat's what we've got. Dave, I
hit the D limiter.

We got, we've got pod verse, donated $50 that's
Mitch and Creon. Very

nice. Thank you. Brothers, excellent. Still

waiting on podcast. Pod verse, Ng, yes. Next Gen,
yes. Hard at work there. We gotsome boost. We got pod home.
That's Barry, 30,000 SAS dopodcast guru. He says, I
appreciate you guys. No,

thank you, Barry. We appreciate you guys. You you you
guys, you guys. Use guy. He'sonly one guy over there. Pod
home, use guy, yes.

Anonymous to cast O Matic, that's rare. Customatic
doesn't usually when I seeanonymous through

custom maybe, just, maybe just named himself
anonymous.

That's true. Maybe that's might be his first name.
Boosting on Episode 196, redneckAir Force. He says, just for the
music. 51 sets, nice. We got youwe got you covered. Oh, comic
strip. Blogger, that was a veryshort,

very short list, people, what's going on? You
think Bitcoin is down? Oh, itis.

It's always down. Do you know the fifth my buddy Tim
was telling me about the 58kcrowd?

Yeah, I've heard this. Yeah, bitcoins going to 50
and will never go above 58 andit's stuck at 58 is that? What

that is? Yeah, if it ever goes below, it'll come back
up. If it ever goes above, it'llcome back down to 58 and it'll
just like pegged there forever.

I watched the I watched the HBO special last
night. That was that promised touncover, for me the true
identity of Satoshi Nakamoto.I've heard that thing is
terrible. Well, I actuallywatched it because I heard the
breakdown of it on This Week inBitcoin with Chris. And that is
funny enough. It made me want towatch and it has some good

(01:22:53):
history of Bitcoin. It doeshave, yeah. I mean, the whole
search for Satoshi is like,whatever, okay, and of

course, we don't find out who's No,

of course, not, not spoiler alert, not conclusively,
but the but in general, it's apretty good doc about Bitcoin. I
enjoyed it.

Maybe I'll give it a what the but we do, we do have
comic strip blogger, yeah,26,000 sets. He's always there.
He says there's during the whenthe apocalypse happens. Yes,
there's going to be three thingswhen the nuclear winter and
Apocalypse happens of world warthree. There will be three
things left, Velveeta cheese,yes, cock, cockroaches

and comics blogger, I actually plugged him on the in
my interview, I don't know ifthey'll use it, but I know, did
you Yeah, yeah. I said, youknow, I was talking about early
podcasting, and we had all thesecool characters show up, like
Roger smalls, who people may notremember, but Hello, Adam. It's
Roger smalls and, and comicstrip blogger and, and he's

(01:23:57):
still with us. We love you.Comic Strip blogger,

howdy, Adam and Dave, I'd like to invite y'all
to a podcast called unrelenting.Available at www dot
unrelenting. Dot show. It airslive on no agenda stream
immediately before your livebroadcast. It's hosted by Irish
mafia member and a Jew grok AIsays about it. Why unrelenting

(01:24:23):
real talk, honest debates with atouch of humor, hot topics, from
Tech Trends to political rants,nothing's off limits. Engaging
banter. Gene and Darrenchemistry make every episode
must listen, yo. CSB,

well, that's a promo, if I've ever heard one.
Yeah, it is comic blogger. He ishere to promote your podcast. He
is the podcast discoverymechanism.

Just Oh, I missed one. I missed one. Hold on. That
was a foul sir. Brian of London,11, 948, OH, Cosmetic Yes. He
says, I'm back. I had to findtime to shift my Alby to Alby
hub on the old umbra. Well,because I really didn't want my
point eight, five BTC node to belinked to every podcast app. I'm
not sure I like this new setup,but I'll try to finish my a lb

(01:25:09):
API for a high I

got to I'm digging the lb hub now that I understand
it. And I understand it becauseI could just click install it.
Oh, it's there. Oh, I see whatI'm supposed to do. Okay, yeah,
yeah, it's a it's basicallyturns your, your my own node
into, you know, gives me an appstore for it so I can connect
all these apps to it. Got

so much backlog of stuff to do that, including the,
you know, the Zebedee and thelight spark and all. I've got a
humongous backlog of stuff likethat that I well, I will get to
as soon as we ship this thing totesters.

Yeah, why don't we just take next week off to

sure that'll work? Okay? But I own a programming
note though, I will be gone nextI will will not be a show next
week. Ah, good. Where

are you going?

Going to going hiking? Me and Melissa,

oh, you're going to do the Appalachian Trail. Have
you chosen for some No, it's,

it's damn we were going to do the Appalachian
Trail, but it's damaged becauseof all the flood. Yes. So we're
actually going to go. We're,this is our this year was our
25th wedding anniversary.

What is the actual date of your what is the actual
date of your anniversary?

It was August the 14th. Wow.

You forgot to tell me. I would have called it out
on no agenda. Oh, sorry. 25years and they never had a
fight, not even one Tina'shiking at the Smoky Mountains
right now with the blonde squad.

Oh, nice. Yeah. She sent me a picture eight hiking
up there.

They were all looking at the at the Aurora
Borealis. Last night. It wasbeautiful there.

The aurora borealis has been as far it's been down
here in Alabama, yeah, we had itlast magnetic storm is no joke.

No, we love that more storms.

Yeah, yeah, I've been alive for 48 years, and I
don't ever remember an auroraborealis in Alabama until this
year. We've had like, threeoccurrences. Oh,

you've never been through a World War either, but
it's coming. Hey, we want tothank our guest. Daniel J Lewis
the Jason, oh, wait

a monthlies. Sorry. Monthly is Jesse Hunter $10
Lauren ball, $24.20 bezelPhillip $25 Mitch Downey $10
Christopher Harbaugh $10 andTerry Keller $5

All right, thank you all for supporting us with your
value for value. This is how itworks. We put everything out
there, the whole podcast index,all of it, all the work, all the
energy, the effort, the sweat,the blood, the tears, all of
it's in there. And as long as weget value back that is worth it
to us, we keep going with theproject. That's how simple. It
includes the board meeting, ofcourse, and so far so good. We

(01:27:57):
don't take any of that money.But that's not the value we're
looking for we're looking forpeople doing stuff. It's time,
talent and treasure. Daniel JLewis, you're part of that, man,

thank you. I've been a fan of this ever since
the beginning. You mightremember that I heard you
mention it on no agenda, and Iimmediately emailed you, and I
was like, whatever you're doing,I want to be part of

it. And did I email you back, or did I show on you?
Oh, I did. You

emailed me back. Wow, it wasn't like the
first time that we met.

It might have been for me, like, Who's this guy?

Do you want to hear that story briefly? Sure.
So it's a two part story here,very brief. You know Jen Briney,
host of congressional dish, I doyears ago, back when I was
married, I was at what was thenight of the Podcast Awards, the
first time I won a podcastaward, and at the party after

(01:28:50):
the award, Jen Briney came up tome, and she was just gushing
with fangirlism because shesaid, You taught me everything I
know about podcasting. Iwouldn't be podcasting if it
wasn't for you, like justshowering all of this praise on
me to the point that I startedto feel a little awkward and
like I tried to hold up my lefthand, showing you know I am

(01:29:11):
married, and I could tell shewas married. I kind of tried to
gesture my wife to be overcloser to me, and it was just
like this. Now, of course, shedidn't mean any of that. She was
just such a fan girl. Well, sofast forward. Then, I think, two
years later, New Media Expo, thelast New Media Expo, the one

(01:29:32):
that had the podcast award,horrible disaster there, and
Adam was there, and Adam, I gotto meet you afterward, and I was
having my own, like, fangirlingmoment, because that was the
first time I'd met you inperson. And, like, I just Oh, so
much did Adam show

you his ring to show you

I'm married? Daniel, J stay away.

Well,

so what happened is I just was so
excited to meet Adam, and Iwanted to tell him how. Much I
appreciated him and what he'sdone in podcasting. And then he
says, Hey, is that Jen Briney,that's funny.

Well, I'm a big fan dang of Jay Lewis, I do. I
listen to your podcast. I listento your I always tune in to find
out what the future ofpodcasting is going to be and I
learn a lot. Thank you, brother.We appreciate you being on.
Don't be no stranger now.

Hey, anytime, every time, okay, brother, Dave,
thank

you so much, man, and I'm glad you're you're not
going to be here on Friday. Youdeserve it. You and you and the
wife deserve it. Are you

going to do something? Are you going to do a
bushcray ball or something.We're just gonna call it, but

I just might call it. There's a lot going on, but
you never know. You never know.I might get, I might get a bug
at my butt. You never know.

Since makes the heart grow fonder,

this is true. Have a great weekend, everybody. Thank
you very much for being here inthe boardroom. We appreciate all
that you do your time, yourtalent, your treasure. We'll see
you in two weeks right here onpodcasting 2.0

(01:31:20):
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Cold Case Files: Miami

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 197: Yay JSON!

Episode Transcript

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Cold Case Files: Miami

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Episode 197: Yay JSON!

Cold Case Files: Miami