Episode 199: Feed Bloat

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Curry (00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for November 1, 2024, episode 199,
feed bloat, hello everybody. Itis a brand new month, and a
brand new board meeting.Podcasting 2.0 is ready to go,
where we discuss all thingspodcasting, what is ahead, what
is here, now, and sometimes welook over our shoulder. We are

(00:22):
indeed the only boardroom thathas no agenda to follow or key
decision making authority. I'mAdam curry here in the heart of
the Texas Hill Country and inAlabama, the man with the plan,
that plan is phase eight. Sayhello to my friend on the other
end, the one, the only Mr. DaveJones.

Dave Jones (00:42):
So I've got so much crap in here in this room now
it's just I the reason wecouldn't rip in a timely fashion
is because I had so much like,it's just chaos you've

Adam Curry (00:55):
been living in that room. That's why you've
literally, I know Melissa. Youdon't have to call me Melissa. I
know he's living in that room.Am I right?

Dave Jones (01:04):
Sleeping bag under the desk? Yes, you

Adam Curry (01:06):
know it's really bad when you know that you've been
working in your in your officetoo much at home, when your wife
puts the kitty litter box inyour office to try to stink you
out. Yeah, you're screwed whenthat happens. Yeah, they're

Dave Jones (01:20):
trying to smoke you out. Yeah, you're like, oh

Adam Curry (01:24):
no, oh no,

Dave Jones (01:27):
I'm coming out. Brother, no, I've got, I bought,
I bought this car play AndroidAuto device, and that's set up
in here. And

Adam Curry (01:36):
what exactly is that? Because I have CarPlay in
my or no auto Android in my car,and now you have a device for
it. How does that work? Yeah,

Dave Jones (01:48):
okay, so this is like, and then grab it. Okay,
it's, this is an Amazon special.Oh, because it's got, it's just
a white box that says portable,wireless car stereo. It's like
the generic peanut buttercontainer. This is white, and it
just says peanut butter andblack, yeah, so, but it's, it's

(02:11):
just seven inch like a widescreen, 16 by nine format
screen, uh huh, touch screenwith and it's got Android Auto
and CarPlay, oh, and on on it,so it's like a head unit and

Adam Curry (02:27):
but now, do you connect portable? How do you
connect it to audio through aBluetooth or a J really?

Dave Jones (02:33):
Bluetooth? Yes,

Adam Curry (02:34):
that's pretty cool.

Dave Jones (02:35):
It's only 50 bucks. It was 499

Adam Curry (02:39):
that's not even 50 bucks. It was not even $50
that's interesting. And does ithave? Does it come with velcro
to put it on your dashboard?

Dave Jones (02:48):
It does not. It comes with a little sand, oh,
and a suction cup. Perhaps it'snot a suck it's not a sucky
stand. It's, it's the it's a,like a, I don't know, I forgot
what. It's some kind of otherstand. It's not the sucky one.
Like,

Adam Curry (03:03):
well, how does this, how does it stay stable in your
car?

Dave Jones (03:07):
Oh, wait, I was wrong. It is the sucky stand
that I

Adam Curry (03:10):
thought it was new. Show title, sucky stand.

Dave Jones (03:13):
This stand sucks No, it doesn't.

Adam Curry (03:16):
It's just, what are you doing?

Dave Jones (03:18):
I'm putting it back together. I'd put it all out of
the total out of the box so Ican put it back together. This
says it has wireless CarPlay,Android Auto, screen mirroring,
car stereo with backup camera.

Adam Curry (03:32):
Is it also a dashboard cam? It

Dave Jones (03:34):
says no installation fees.

Adam Curry (03:38):
I think that's your VMI podcasting, 2.0 no
installation fees needed,

Dave Jones (03:44):
yeah, free estimates.

Adam Curry (03:47):
Your insurance will pay for it.

Dave Jones (03:51):
Yeah. So I've got this thing in here. And then
there's also, there's also thismy Android phone that I bought
off, you know, to have a testthing with. I've got commentary,
by the way, on it, on PWAs, yes,

Adam Curry (04:07):
and maybe I'll talk about that right now. But maybe
I should say that what ishappening here, what is
happening here is Dave and Ihave been working on this
project for a couple months now,and it's starting to ramp up,
and we're so in it that when andI was getting ready to start the
board meeting like I only wantto talk about our stuff,

(04:27):
honestly, my head's so full.There's some things we can we
can totally discuss without, youknow, because it's just not
unclothed yet, and there's awhole bunch of people who need
to be informed about it, but wecan certainly talk about some
things and what we've learned. IWell, here's something I learned
on iPhones, which I do notpossess, P, W, A's work on Car

(04:53):
Play that they Yes, they do. Ihad no idea that they worked on
CarPlay.

Dave Jones (04:59):
So it. Yes, I guess we'll, I guess we'll talk about
it. So the I'm trying to findthe link to this thing that I
bought, so I could put it in theboard room. There it is. Okay, I
got it now. Yeah, so the car,there's a, there's a PWA aspect
to this thing we're making. Andthere it is. There's a, there's

(05:22):
a PWA component to this thing.And so I'm like, Well, you know,
we obviously you want, you wantthis, this media that you're
playing, to be able to show onthe lock screen and on Car Play
and all these things, um, youknow, the top, the title and the
image, the album art, and allthis kind of stuff, yeah. So,

(05:46):
um, even though it's not themain thrust of what we're doing,
we've got this, this PWA thingas a, as a, as a fallback
component. So the, you know,there's a, there's a thing that
enables this, called the mediasession. The media session API,

(06:08):
and a all apps have access tothis through native APIs or
through there's a web API forit. It's just called media
session. So you can check and ifMedia Session exists as an
object in in the in the the DOM,then you can add your metadata

(06:32):
to that, and then it will then,then globally, the OS will see
that that media session and beable to know what to display for
things like a Now Playingscreen. So from any app or web
session you can, you can justadd this metadata to the media
session, and then the OS canpick it up. This. This is, it's

(06:58):
an open standard, you know,widely, widely supported. I
mean, literally, every platformthat I know of supports the
media session, AP, exceptAndroid except and except
Android Auto, except AndroidAuto, stupid,

Adam Curry (07:15):
Google. Yeah,

Dave Jones (07:17):
so the so and the Android apps. You can set it and
it works on the lock screen,yeah? But as soon as you push to
Android Auto, it just nothingreads. It

Adam Curry (07:29):
doesn't, doesn't, doesn't exist, yeah, yeah.
Because so

Dave Jones (07:33):
CarPlay has, CarPlay has this notion of a Now Playing
screen. So if there's mediaplaying from somewhere. It
doesn't matter where, where it'scoming from. What happens? Okay,
from? Yeah, yeah, you can it'll,it'll just have now playing sort
of like a default home screenthat you did you land on right
and or a widget.

Adam Curry (07:53):
We have no controls. No, you

Dave Jones (07:55):
have controls. Yeah, you have controls too. No, it
looks beautiful. It looks justlike your phone lock screen just
on your car, huh? But AndroidAuto has no equivalent of this.
Yeah, it only understands apps,and if the app doesn't, if the
if the app is not publishedthrough the through the Google

(08:17):
Play Store, and have all the andhave like the, we call it the
like permissions, or, yeah,whatever manifest, or whatever
for for enabling Android Auto,it just doesn't show up. You
can't even launch it. It's like,it doesn't exist. You can hear
the audio, but you can't seeanything else. This is a huge
this is a weird thing to me,because going into this, I

(08:40):
thought, okay, CarPlay is goingto be the hard one to get
working, because this is an openstandard. So obviously Android,
exactly

Adam Curry (08:50):
Apple, would be the hardest guys ever. But no, it's
actually quite, quite easy.Yeah,

Dave Jones (08:55):
we got, we got, we got Apple for free, and
Android's been the pain in thebutt. So I don't know if this so
that's what I discovered. Ifanybody I believe me, I have
Googled every permutation ofthis that I can possibly imagine
and come back with zero answers.So and I even went so far as to

(09:17):
put, uh, put the Android Autointerface on the phone into what
they call un or developer mode,where you can, where you can,
quote, unquote, enable unknownApps,

Adam Curry (09:30):
extra features that are not the undocumented
features.

Dave Jones (09:34):
Yeah, advanced, you know, advanced, otherwise known
as normal mode. Yes. And Ienabled this thing, and it still
doesn't work. So that'shorrible. If anybody has some
some work around some top secretjuice, tell me, hmm, I would
love to know about it, by theway, true fans, speaking of PWA,

(09:55):
is true fans enabled offlineplayback. I would love to know
how they did that, because thatsounds super hard and as a PWA,
now that I've had a little bitof dabbling in the PWA universe,
I've got mad respect for whattrue fans is doing as a PWA. The
performance is excellent. Itlike it. It operates top notch

(10:20):
as a as a PWA, and that is hardto do because, especially on the
iPhone, because the iPhones PWAsupport is spotty to begin with,
and it all, and it tends to getbogged down. Yeah, in some Have
you noticed this?

Adam Curry (10:35):
I can't notice that because I've removed apple from
my life.

Dave Jones (10:38):
No, yeah. Well, you, I will, I will notice it for
you. It tends to get boggeddown, so that sometimes, like
tapping and moving things justdoesn't work and you have to
reload the kill the app andreload it. But true fans seems
very immune to this, and sokudos is all I can say. Now,

Adam Curry (10:58):
are they still working on native apps. I mean,
I know that Sam Sethi threatenedit, but I don't know if he
actually started on it or not.

Dave Jones (11:07):
I haven't heard any update on it. I don't know. Let
me check my email see if yousend an email

Adam Curry (11:14):
the true fans update of the week, which includes
inline images and and headersand subtitles is always a it's
an interesting read, but I dohave to sit down and take my
time to go through it. You

Dave Jones (11:29):
need a cup of coffee. Yeah, you do. I don't
see anything in here about thenative apps in his latest
update. I love these updates, bythe way. Yeah,

Adam Curry (11:39):
I wish everyone update like that,

Dave Jones (11:42):
straight up. Me too, because

Adam Curry (11:44):
I need more to do during the day. A lot more.

Dave Jones (11:47):
Yeah, that's anyway, so that's, that's the that's the
latest in my adventures in PWAland. Well, yeah, it'll be,
it'll be fun to talk aboutthings in the open. Because I
think it's like, I think whatwe're doing fits in so nicely to
everything with podcasting andpodcasting to Dotto, I think it

(12:09):
just, I think we're just kind ofslotting this thing into a lot
of open spaces. That's what itfeels like. What

Adam Curry (12:17):
I've been so part of what I've been doing for this
project as I've beenexperimenting with live which
has been really, it's been sogood to do that again, and
especially since you can put alive item into your RSS feed,
what a genius move that was. Andand when I look back and I have

(12:39):
to keep reminding myself, we'vebeen doing this for 15 years.
You know, doing the podcast likeno agenda, doing the podcast
live. We've got the, I mean, forI know that we haven't quite,
ever really finalized the thechat part of the of the live
tag, although it's there, youknow, there was never really a

(13:03):
consensus on as far as I know. Imean, I think curry caster, no,
we got cat. Chat tag exists, butchat tag exists, but no one's
really implemented the chat, oh,except for curio caster, I think
has a web frame that that bringsup. Maybe it's Kiwi IRC or
something like that. BecauseIRC, for some reason, just seems

(13:26):
to be the most rock solid, themost developments done on it for
the chat. And it's it's reallyamazing. I mean, you look at the
boost bot, you look at theintegration of split kit and and
the live web socket. So theminute I play something, the
title, the metadata, getsshuttled through from my playout
system into the I mean, IRC isjust where all the development

(13:49):
has taken place. And by the way,these are, you know, these are
GitHub available features likeboost bot, and it's not Adam
curry level. So for me, it'slike, can I install it on my
start nine with one click? Ifnot, okay, it's gonna be
painful. So boost spot, youknow, the heli, the helipad

(14:12):
stuff is just phenomenal, and itworks so well. When you just do
a live podcast, you know, youjust say, Okay, we're going to
start. We hit record. You do thepodcast, you know. And it's not
like the live stream, the noagenda live stream, you know.
It's not like we're we're tight,like a radio station tight. Now
we click in. I'm futzing aroundfor five minutes. Sometimes I

(14:34):
play songs, and it has this 24hour stream has such a nice
appeal. Then, when, when there'sno, when there's no live, then
it automatically falls back to aschedule. It pulls in a
scheduled podcast. And, youknow, I've just been, just been
enjoying messing around withschedulers and kind of getting

(14:55):
back into it. I mean, I've beendoing that for like, I mean,
I've been doing Ray. CEO stuffsince I was 13, but I can go all
the way back to, gosh, what weresome of the early, I mean, the
early shout cast and ice castsand scripting lineups and
formats and doing stuff likethat. And now that we have
music, you know, it's like youcan do music stations, value for

(15:18):
value, not all, but many of thepodcasting 2.0 apps will, will
let you stream value for valuein real time or boost. I mean,
it's, it's such an openopportunity, but it's, it's
always a little scary. You know,for people to go, to actually go
live, like Oy steenberger, thatguy's flying without a net, and

(15:41):
he's flying without a wingsuit.He's flying. He just flapping
his arms. He comes on. He justgoes, Man, he just goes, it's
fantastic. I love it. I lovethat. I love that too. You know,
it's just, it's, it's, it'sreally a lot of fun and and
that's because I've been doingboosted grand ball again, it's
every 14 days, but, you know, atleast now it's kind of set

(16:02):
Wednesday, every 14 days, 1pm Igo live, and that's where the
interaction, you know, it's,it's one thing to do a music
show, but when you have thecorner of your eye, you've got
the chat room scrolling by. It'sjust great. You know, you feel,
you feel like you're doing sosame with the boardroom. Just
feel like something ishappening, the interaction is

(16:22):
almost automatic. And then whenyou go back and listen to the
podcast, it doesn't irritate methat, oh, you know, there's the
guys talking to people in theboardroom or the chat room or
the troll room, you know, fillin whatever name you have for
it. In fact, if anything, itmakes me want to be there, which
is what has always been thethat's how I was taught with

(16:43):
making shows you you want tomake the audience feel like they
should be there. I got to bethere. I got to be there for
that thing. Whether I didn'twant to like they don't want to
miss it, yeah, yeah. Like youwant to be there in person, or
you want, you know, or, ofcourse, that's not possible, but
at least you know, with with allthese protocols we have, you can
be there by remote. It's thereis something so big happening in

(17:07):
this type of format. We justhaven't really pulled it all
together yet, and part of thatis the hosting companies. Of
course, we have pod home and RSSblue, and I'm sure there's a few
other I'm sure, I'm sureblueberry does it. But
podcasting, this really goesback to the early days when we

(17:27):
had no gear. You had no gear. Soit was very hard even, I mean,
there must have been eight yearswe were teaching people how to
set up a mix, minus to have, youknow, someone on remote and you
know, and not have them hearthemselves back through Skype or
whatever we were using in theearly days. And so people kind

(17:49):
of since we didn't have livegear like the rodecasters, which
I think really is still theflagship, because there's a lot
of it comes out of the box.There's other ones now as well,
but we were using gear formusicians, and it just really
wasn't appropriate for for alive type of program. And so we

(18:11):
defaulted back to editing. Andthis after the fat post, yeah,
post. And so we've got, we havean entire industry which now
includes AI to chop out your ersand your UMS. And instead of
honing your skills and gettingbetter at what you're actually
saying at the moment, you'resaying it. And we have an entire
category of Podcast Producer,oh, I'm a podcast editor. You

(18:35):
know, which, which is filled up.And of course, now a lot of them
are sadly find themselves out ofa job as the as the budgets are
being cut everywhere.

Dave Jones (18:45):
I've been listening to your live stream and to your
test stream, you know, for a fewdays now, and it's just, it's
great. I love it. Thank you. Ilove it the like, just the the
mix of various things that thatthat come on. It's like, it's

(19:07):
amateur, it's amateur radio, butdone by a professional. If that
makes

Adam Curry (19:12):
any sense, like, I know how to do it. I just can't
quite get there yet.

Dave Jones (19:17):
It's like, you know, you you know, yeah, you know how
to do it, and you're tinkeringwith, yeah, yeah. It's like,
you're tinkering with it to getit to be what the thing your
vision is. And it's fun. It'sfun to watch. Like, I think that
it's, yeah, yeah. I'm

Adam Curry (19:33):
learning a lot. I'm learning a lot. And it's
basically, I think, three Ican't even get my wife to listen
to it yet.

Dave Jones (19:39):
Oh, really. I think it's awesome. It's great.

Adam Curry (19:43):
I love it. She actually said this morning, now,
how do I do that? How do I howdo I find this thing? So, who
knows? You know, I've learned,you know, if you push people
will never do it. And yeah, bythe way, my family barely
listens to any of my podcasts.You know, Tina listens to Noah.
J. And she never listens tothis. Of course, you just nerds.

(20:04):
Just some nerd I know. Did youdo your nerd show? George? Did
you do your nerd show? Yet? Herown podcast that we do, curry
and the keeper, I'll show.Listen to that

Dave Jones (20:14):
for a second time after doing,

Adam Curry (20:16):
oh yeah. She's like, You never listen to the show. I
was there when I did it. Whatare you talking about? I know. I
know it was good.

Dave Jones (20:24):
I don't have time to listen to this show for a
second. Well,

Adam Curry (20:28):
sometimes right after, right after the show,
I'll take the dog for a walk,and I will listen to it while
I'm on the walk, you know, justto I always am sampling stuff,
you know, just to make sure thesound is good, the interaction
is good. You know, that kind of

Dave Jones (20:43):
stuff. I've listened to this show maybe six or seven
times when I when I was like, Iwas worried that I didn't like
that I was confusing, or thatdidn't or I said something
wrong. And I'm like, did I saythat? Right now, I'll go back
and listen to see, like, rightdid I make a mistake? But like
otherwise, man, I don't have to

Adam Curry (21:04):
realize well, and all, all props to Dr Scott. I
love the chapter work that hedoes on every single project I'm
involved in, and he does it formany other people. I appreciate
it so much, because I can go,Hey, what were we talking about?
And just go in, click, hit thehit the chapter. And I'm always
delighted when I see all thedifferent images that he's

(21:26):
chosen for stuff, because, youknow, there's, there's a lot of
easter eggs and funny stuff inin drebs chapters. And of
course, he gets a split of everyproject that I do for that, so
he feels appreciated. He getsvalue for the value he's
providing, and that part of thesystem works.

Dave Jones (21:44):
I just realized that I didn't put true fans on this
Android phone. Oh, and I need totest it to see if they've
somehow gotten some kind ofjuice. Wouldn't

Adam Curry (21:53):
surprise me, if anyone's figured it out, it's
it's the true fans crew. Ohyeah. True fans crew, sounds
like two Live Crew does? LiveCrew, two fans. Crew, yeah, kind
of good. Just before we started,I saw that David from hyper
catcher, which, of course, yeah,what have you seen? This

Dave Jones (22:17):
came back in with a vengeance. He sees me doing some
coding.

Adam Curry (22:20):
What exactly does this do? It says podcast
mentions, right? Set keywordalerts for your favorite
podcasts and get notified whenthey are mentioned.

Dave Jones (22:33):
Yeah. I mean, it sounds to me like a a way to to,
like, find topics mentioned inpodcasts that you're interested
in. Like to get an alert.

Adam Curry (22:44):
Let me see. So get started. Get started. Okay, for
free, for free, sign in withGoogle. Okay, nope. I like, I
like the logo, though, but Ilike his, his hyper gum logo.
I'll sign in with Google tofree. So I think what he's
doing, choosing, oh, so, okay,so it costs my AI powered

(23:07):
analytics. Ai powered analyticsbasic support, five projects
limit access to basic AI tools.See what does this do? So if you
so you brand alerts. There's alot going on here.

Dave Jones (23:26):
I'm signing in with Google. I'm about to tell you
what it does. Okay, let's see. I

Adam Curry (23:31):
mean, look, I like the idea for sure.

Dave Jones (23:36):
Oh, check your mode. What?

Adam Curry (23:38):
Oh, you gotta check your email for a code.

Dave Jones (23:40):
Well, it's it's this. Now it's sending stuff to
my Android phone. This is gonnabe

Adam Curry (23:45):
a problem. So the keyword alerts for your favorite
podcast get notified when theyare mentioned. So how is he
checking all podcasts formentions? That's gotta be quite
the quite the job.

Dave Jones (23:58):
I think he said he's not okay. I think he's somehow
he's doing it a different way.No, okay, so I logged in. It
says Search Credits Remainingtoo, and it says Search groups.
So I click Search groups, searchpodcasts. Okay, podcasting. It
Out of maybe, search, um, no, Ididn't do anything. Okay, I

(24:25):
don't know what this is. I likedyour search group name.

Adam Curry (24:29):
I like hyper gum. I like the idea. I like the logo.
It's a piece of gum, basicallylike, like a gummy the hyper Oh
yeah,

Dave Jones (24:37):
okay, here it is. So I searched pod news. Pod news
weekly review. So I'm gonna putthat. Oh, okay, so you pod News
Daily. Uh, no agenda. Let mesearch for that so you can build
a group of podcasts, which iswhat I'm doing, a search group
named Dave's stuff. Enter asearch term. Okay, Dave, all

(25:02):
right, so I'll search formyself.

Adam Curry (25:05):
I think that's that's illegal in Alabama, isn't

Dave Jones (25:07):
it? What it says you have insufficient search
credits. You

Adam Curry (25:11):
got no credit, right for more credit. Give me credit.
Man, just give me credit. Giveme some credit. Give me some
credit. Man, I need a credit. Ineed a credit. Man, please give
me some credits.

Dave Jones (25:25):
But I see what it does, but I don't have any
credits.

Adam Curry (25:27):
Okay, well, maybe we'll have David on soon. Dave
Norman on, well, he can explainwhat I do. Yeah, bring him on
the show in the board, in mybook, yes, in your black book.
So I've identified, uh,something that's presenting to
be a problem. No, no, yeah, youmay have seen some of these
emails go back and forth, soapparently, there are some

(25:51):
nefarious actors who areduplicating RSS feeds and and
then monetizing those byclaiming those feeds. Since,
since their duplicate feed hastheir own email address in it,
they're duplicating it throughvarious ways in order to get

(26:17):
value blocks into the databasefor feeds that are not theirs.
And I've had three or maybe fiveinstances of this happening,

Dave Jones (26:27):
and is it all coming from the same people?

Adam Curry (26:31):
No, it doesn't appear to be coming from the
same people. It's notwidespread, but it's, it's like
one of those things, like, ah.So you know, what typically
happens is, you know, you searchfor something, you see there's
three different feet, threedifferent versions of a podcast.
And then there'll be an, ofcourse, an a cast feed. And that

(26:51):
a cast feed will have adifferent email address in it.
And then they claim that, eitherthrough podcasts or wallet or, I
think probably the easiest waythey're doing it is through
fountain, which is not, youknow, Oscar and I have been in
touch. Now, in some cases,people think that that's
happened, but someone else onthe team did it, you know. So
there's some, there's somediscrepancy there, but it is

(27:15):
something we need to be on thelookout for. So, you know, feed
feed dupes that have valueblocks is a bit of an issue.

Dave Jones (27:24):
We could put some sort of some sort of alert in
where there's a if there's likea title collision, a brand new
feed with a title collision thathas a value block. Maybe there

Adam Curry (27:35):
you go. Throw flag on the play. Yeah, yellow card.
So the thing that that kind ofbugged me is vigilante TV
appears to have done that.

Dave Jones (27:45):
Well, I thought they were legit. Yes, what I thought,

Adam Curry (27:48):
too. But someone reached out to me and said, This
is not legit.

Dave Jones (27:54):
Isn't that? The Hive people? Aren't they a hive
group, I

Adam Curry (27:58):
don't know. Let me see if I can find the email for
a second, because I was verydisappointed by that van t let
me see lantee. Here we go. Thiswas Hello. I recently switched

(28:19):
to a fully podcasting, 2.0compliant act. I noticed
something. Couple of podcasts Ilistened to seem to have
lightning addresses listed fordonations, but never mentioned
this or listed as a way tosupport the show is able to
confirm that one of them so farnever set this up and doesn't
accept Bitcoin at all. Can youimagine? Lol, so apparently
someone is squatting on theirlisting. And so I looked at

(28:41):
this, yeah, vigilante.tv hadbasically taken this feed and
added, I mean, and they dointeresting stuff, because they
add a whole bunch of 2.0features. Alex

Dave Jones (28:57):
says that's a peer tube instance that allows
uploads of random videos tocomment on peer to. So this may
be somebody that went in andcreated a Rando using the
vigilante TV service, in puretube instance, and created a
channel of that name and is nowuploading the content just to
get a feed in there. By

Adam Curry (29:18):
the way, shows have anchor, not a cast anchor.
Typically, I

Dave Jones (29:21):
knew what you meant. Yeah, right. So this, this, this
may not be that this, this isprobably not the vigilante TV
people themselves. This

Adam Curry (29:31):
is people. Oh, okay, all right.

Dave Jones (29:34):
We should probably, you know, I should probably, I
just sent myself a note so Icould remember to put in a
couple of alerts in here. Okay,yeah, well, I'll start watching
for that, because that's notcool now, bastards.
Yeah, by the way, Francoresponded my four I forwarded

(29:56):
him that that,

Adam Curry (29:57):
yeah. What did. You say extortion letter, yeah.

Dave Jones (30:02):
He says it looks very scammy to me. On their
website, they mention as a pod,as their partner is the Italian
podcasting Association. ThePresident Giulio guadino
guardiano is a friend of mineand a good supporter of open
podcasting. Let me check withhim and report back to you.
Okay, yeah. So be thinking,Well,

Adam Curry (30:21):
I mean, so this literally went to my spam
folder. And not much goes to myspam folder, yeah, let me see it
was. Who were these Jim oaks?What was their name? Again?

Dave Jones (30:37):
License sync, lice. License sync, yes, like all one
word like

Adam Curry (30:44):
Amazon licensing, then dear podcast index team, we
are writing to follow up on ourprevious communications protocol
number 14, slash 23 and 13 slash24 which is meaningless. And of
course, 24 Oh, my God, ofcourse, I don't know what
protocol they're talking about,dated in 2023 in August 2024

(31:05):
regarding the request for thesubscription and settlement of
the streaming and downloadlicense for the Italian Italian
cmo licensing administeredpodcast repertoire, distributed
via your platform, github.com,comma, podcast index.org, like,
okay, yeah,

Dave Jones (31:21):
it's basically, and then they attach an invoice for
$7,000 yeah, come compliant, youknow, yeah, yeah.

Adam Curry (31:32):
The fact that it went to my spam is probably
because somebody marked it assuch somewhere along the line.

Dave Jones (31:40):
It's like things like this. It's like, well, you
know, this is, this is obviouslybull crap. But then you you
always have to wonder, okay, isit enough to just tell them to
go away, or is it, or do we haveto actually get a lawyer to
draft a threatening letter?Well,

Adam Curry (31:54):
we have some, yeah, we have some lawyers who'd be
happy to draft a threateningletter.

Dave Jones (31:59):
Yes, I'm like that. That's the only problem with
stuff like this, is you're like,come on, you know?

Adam Curry (32:05):
Oh, well, it's what it is. It

Dave Jones (32:08):
is, I have a note. James has had to fight this
battle. He's

Adam Curry (32:11):
had several things like this happen to him, right?
Yeah,

Dave Jones (32:14):
yeah. One, one guy, I think, got pretty nasty before
they finally quit. Yeah,

Adam Curry (32:18):
yeah. He's like, Oh, you're using this or that. So I
did get a note from saltycrayon. I hate to do this to
you, but we should probably justgo through it succinctly,
percentages versus shares in

Dave Jones (32:36):
block splits, no, no. You want to push it off
again. What like, what,

Adam Curry (32:42):
I don't know, percent. We just, can

Dave Jones (32:46):
somebody just look, find the old, the old time that
we talked about it? We can justlay late, like the chapter and
episode number. It's

Adam Curry (32:55):
probably a good idea. I think sir Dean Anonymous
is, is is doing a Bing? It.iofor for podcasting 2.0 which
actually is not, it's clipgenie.com Yeah, I think so.

Dave Jones (33:11):
Clip genie.com was a product that,

Adam Curry (33:13):
yeah, no, it's a product, yes.

Dave Jones (33:17):
But is that what powers being? It not? Yes,

Adam Curry (33:19):
yeah. Thank you. Clip powered by clip Genie,
exactly. So that would be, andwhat is this? Stephen B had a,
what was that transcripts? Shehad a transcript search. Well,
there's steno.fm, steno.fm,

Dave Jones (33:41):
um, am

Adam Curry (33:43):
okay. Well, here you go, podcasting 2.0 All right,
lot of broken images on thatpage. Okay, so splits. I'll just
do search splits. Let's seewhat?

Dave Jones (33:54):
Oh, Lord, that's gonna come back with a billion
results. No, maybe episode 149,scrape my JSON. Is that it? No,
I just, I just thought that wasa cool title

Adam Curry (34:03):
percentage, let me say no,

Dave Jones (34:06):
what would be a term that we would have used
discussing that that would belike rare pain,

Adam Curry (34:12):
pain, pain, search for pain. No episodes found with
pain value. How about fees?Maybe fees

Dave Jones (34:23):
respect the splits. Discuss this, splitting the tab,
splitting the tab, maybe thatmight have 91 that seems awfully
long ago, but maybe

Adam Curry (34:36):
split splitting the tab. That's a standard.fm is
pretty as though it's now it'ssearching for stuff. We'll find
it here. We'll find it, we'llfind it. We'll find it. We'll
put it out there for you. Saltycrayon. Yeah,

Dave Jones (34:49):
I mean, we, we spent, like, literally, an hour
talking about it. Yeah, we did.And when we lost half the half
the border, they killed. Theynever come back. They died. They
died. Yeah,

Adam Curry (35:02):
all right, we want to talk about

Dave Jones (35:06):
brother. Let's see. I've got, yeah, Daniel, I see
you trying to bait me in. I'mnot taking that bait. Stop it.
Name. Let's see Alex.

Adam Curry (35:18):
Well, Alex has worst episode to date, to be honest.
Well, could you just give us theepisode number? If you remember,
it was the worst one. What wasthe number?

Dave Jones (35:27):
Yeah, it stuck out in your head. And must be the
word you must know about.

Adam Curry (35:30):
That's the one. That's the one we need.

Dave Jones (35:34):
Let's see that. Well, I mean, you want to talk
about the the L, 402, stuff thatRussell,

Adam Curry (35:38):
yeah, yeah. I'm happy to see him working on
that.

Dave Jones (35:43):
Yeah. Um, so, so Russell's trying to build
something around the idea of payWalling, uh, content. And he's
settled on on the 402 method,the L 4o T,

Adam Curry (36:01):
which I suggested as the l sat. I suggested look at l
sat. And this is somethingsimilar, but different.

Dave Jones (36:07):
Same idea. Yeah. I mean, with l sat, you you
challenge with a you challengethe API call with a 402
response. And for HTTP status,402

Adam Curry (36:19):
is authentication required. It's a payment
required. Payment required.Okay, yeah.

Dave Jones (36:26):
So you, you respond. So the idea is, you, you make a
call to an end point. So someHTTP endpoint, that endpoint,
that endpoint responds with awith a with a status code of
402, and then you you know thatyou have to make a payment in
order to retrieve the data fromthat end

Adam Curry (36:47):
point. So they renamed it, l 402 l4 oh two.org.
Got it,

Dave Jones (36:52):
yeah. L, which makes a lot more sense than LSAT, to
be honest. So Alex says maybeepisode 146, the So, the, so,
the idea there is, is prettystraightforward. You You know,
you would, you can conceptualizethis as you know, you would try
to download a an episode of apodcast, or an audio book, or

(37:19):
whatever this content is youwould try to download the
enclosure. The CDN would respondwith a 402 saying that you're
gonna have to pay for this toget it. Then you would make some
sort of payment, then request itagain with the payment proof,
and you get and you get thecontent. Didn't

Adam Curry (37:41):
Alex gates have something already worked out
with this proof of paymentstuff? Yes,

Dave Jones (37:47):
the JS the the JSON payment token, JpT idea in that,
and that's that work. That wouldwork perfectly fine in this, in
this workflow, the issue he'strying to do, yeah, the JpT and
the issue he's trying to do,but, but Russell's trying to

(38:09):
solve this for Fiat as well. Thethe JpT is, it would work for
Fiat, but it's not going to besupported by like Apple and
Google and these Fiat paymentplatforms, the So the issue here

(38:30):
as described up until now inthis this is a discussion 670,
on the GitHub. Yay. Is the thefour, so the you, if you and I
heard James and Sam talk aboutthis on pod news weekly review

(38:50):
today, but they still missed thebig problem, which is, again, if
you pay, using, if you, if youpay in app for a digital
purchase, you must use in apppurchase, or now, very recently,

(39:14):
you are allowed to kick out to athird party payment platform.
And I'm talking specificallyabout Apple here. I don't know
if I don't know about Google, Idon't know. I've not heard of
them allowing this, but withApple, you're allowed to kick
out too. You're allowed to havea link which will take you to a
third party payment platform,but then you have to do your own

(39:38):
bookkeeping, so you still oweApple 30% of that digital
purchase, but you now have torecord it and track how much you
owe and then send them a check.

Adam Curry (39:52):
Yeah, that's a pretty big thing to miss.

Dave Jones (39:55):
Well, it's, it's so you can so the ideal solution
and. This is what, and that'sthe way that Russell is dealing
with this. Is he's saying, Okay,I'll build a service that will
allow doing this with with athird party link out but, and
then I'm gonna and then I willdo the book, build something

(40:18):
that does the bookkeeping, andthen there will be payments that
are processed out to variousparties at the end of the month.
So, this is a, I mean, this is,this is a, this is a payment
platform, bookkeeping servicethat is centralized to pod to
which there's, no, it's not aproblem, but, but as

Adam Curry (40:36):
far as you'll have to kick back the 30%

Dave Jones (40:39):
Yeah, you got, you've got, you've got, I mean,
you've got to, you've got to dothat. So the, you know, the the
ideal issue is, if we reallywould truly want to do this, if
we truly want to, and see, okay,this is not, and, by the way,
this is not how Spotify OpenAccess works. Spotify open
access, which is what this isall being compared to Spotify.

(41:04):
Open Access works through goingand paying somewhere else for
content, something like throughPatreon, and then just making an
OAuth connection back to thatthing you paid for so that you
can listen to it in Spotify.Spotify the app is still not
allowed to do a in app paymentflow that does not go through

(41:26):
it,

Adam Curry (41:27):
right? So you still need the OAuth from the app
side, right? You're gonna

Dave Jones (41:31):
have to go to a website or some other party, pay
for the content, then link it toSpotify through an OAuth
handshake that so, but whateverybody wants is not that

Adam Curry (41:44):
I understand what we want, but the rules of the of
the app road are just different.

Dave Jones (41:49):
They are and so, you know what? What everybody wants
is an in app payment flow whereit's just kind of like but, and
you're done, and that's so, butin order to so the only way that
I can imagine that that works isin a seamless way. Is if the RSS

(42:09):
feed returns a 402 and a 402 caninclude a response body, some
some HTTP statuses. The specsays that they don't that
they're just a status code. Theydon't have a body. The 402 can
have a body. So if we can returnthe body, the 402 body with in

(42:34):
app purchase specifics about howto do it. Okay, so here's this
for Apple, this for Google,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Okay, so you'd have maybe a,maybe return a JSON object that
includes Apple Pay or in app,Apple in app information, Google
Pay in app information, and thenlightning and something else.

Adam Curry (42:57):
That point isn't easy just to build in the Apple
Pay and Google Pay. SDK, I mean,you're going to pay for it
anyway. You're going to pay the30% anyway. That's

Dave Jones (43:09):
what I'm saying. If that's exactly what you just
read my you're Yes, that's whatI'm saying. If you have, if
you're having to do all this andstill pay 30% then it's better
to just have it as an in apppurchase. Yeah, and don't and
forget all the bookkeeping andrecord keeping and all that
stuff. So if we could returnsomething that has, uh, every

(43:33):
possible payment method in it,and then the apps can choose
what they support. So if, ifcast O Matic tries to play an
enclosed download an enclosure,and it gets a 402 back, it can
throw up a message to the usersaying, you know, we only
support Apple Pay, becausethat's their restriction that

(43:55):
they're have, that they have toabide by on as being an app in
the App Store. So we onlyhere's, here's your what do you
hear? Here you go in app,purchase so, and you would tap
it, do your thing, and go, Okay,that that doesn't affect value
for value at all, because V forV is, is a separate flow, right?
You know you, you can't. So whatI'm you know that to me, that's

(44:18):
the way forward here is we needto in we need to the feed needs
to provide, excuse me, the 402,needs to provide back the
information needed in order tomake payment right. And it could
even, it could even make, youknow, send back to payment like

(44:42):
a here's a payment for thecontent, and then here's a
payment for going to the app.So, like, there would be some
percentage of payment going tothe app. So the decisions, you
said the app could pay itself,or something like that as a sort
of kind of pseudo split. It. Soanyway, that's okay. Do you see?

Adam Curry (45:06):
Yeah, no, I'm with you. It seems like a lot of work
for something that you could doin a different manner. What

Dave Jones (45:12):
is and that's the problem with the app stores.

Adam Curry (45:14):
So we need more lawyers,

Dave Jones (45:18):
because, because if, if James is, you know, James is
saying, Well, you could do allthis with stripe, but you can't.
It's, and this is what we talkedabout last week. It's, this is
not a tech problem. This is apolitics problem, right? And,
well, let me take that back. Youcan, but it's, it's, it's

(45:40):
intense, apples, apples,policies are intentionally
difficult, so that nobody willdo it right. You're now, you're
now by by law or not law, but byby by policy, you are
technically allowed. But who'sgonna do all that? Right? And,

(46:02):
and, and Russell's saying, Well,I volunteer. I'll, I'll do it,
but then it's centralized aroundpod two. But, you know, I mean,
if we, if we can make it just anin app purchase, then just in
that purchase, it just works. Itjust works. Yeah, okay. The
problem is, I just don't knowhow to do that. No, like, I

(46:23):
don't know what information isrequired to make an in app
purchase. In that way, somebodywho's got a lot of Apple app
experience would need to tellus. I don't

Adam Curry (46:30):
think we need to go much further than we need to
spend time on other things.

Dave Jones (46:38):
I don't mind. I love the idea. I love the idea of
enabling this, because you thinkabout it, you could give back.
You could give back if you'rereturning a payment, an object,
if you're returning a JSONobject with various options for
payment. One of them could bebolt 11, and you could make your

(47:01):
payment and enable content ofthe content download, right? But

Adam Curry (47:05):
you still need to keep your books and pay 30% to
Apple.

Dave Jones (47:09):
No, I'm talking to so, no, I'm talking about like,
I'm talking about so things offplatform. So I'm saying like, if
you, if you always return allyour options. Then the the app
can choose the specifics thatare best for it. So then it can
say, Okay, well, I'm an Appleapp. I have to use Apple in app.

(47:29):
Purchase. I'm an Android app. Ihave to use Google and purchase.
I gotcha, I'm curio caster. Ican use lightning, right, right,
right. So I'm going to chooseboth, both 11 or I'm fountains
website, I'll use bolt 11, orI'm true fans, right?

Adam Curry (47:45):
It becomes a lot easier when you're not an app,
right,

Dave Jones (47:49):
right? Yeah, yes. Nathan says Spotify is getting
around this by never mentioningor leak linking how to pay for
open access shows, yes, it'sexactly right, right?

Adam Curry (47:59):
You don't do that in the in the in the in the content
itself,

Dave Jones (48:04):
right? And they don't take a cut the the that's
part of the rules in the AppStore policies. Up until
recently, you were not allowedto even

Adam Curry (48:20):
Whoa. Boost. Thanks. Tim F received what he's got
three boobs. It's a three. Boom,boost. Oh my.

Dave Jones (48:30):
Up until recently, you were not allowed to even say
in the app that there was analternative payment method.
Yeah,

Adam Curry (48:40):
this is so lame. Yep, and

Dave Jones (48:44):
I want to do this. I want to make it happen, but we
got to do it in a way that makessense. You need to

Adam Curry (48:49):
do that on your own time, Dave, because I'm falling
asleep.

Dave Jones (48:52):
Okay,

Unknown (48:54):
move on. Phase eight.

Dave Jones (48:56):
What you got? Big man. Hey,

Adam Curry (48:57):
listen, big man, I got phase eight. I see that
you're you got a plan. You got aplan for phase eight. Can we
want to hit the hit the hot namespace for a minute here. Just do
a little bit of a little bit ofhot name space.

Unknown (49:13):
Please hit it all right. Hello, Jennifer, and now
it's time for some hot namespace talk. Yes.

Adam Curry (49:23):
I'm awake now. Hot name space, hot.

Dave Jones (49:31):
You really, you really dug out that? Yes,
because it

Adam Curry (49:35):
was real. Man, yeah, I like me some hot name space
talk on a Friday.

Unknown (49:42):
Dig it out. Digging it
out.

Dave Jones (49:47):
Yeah. So James, location tag changes,

Adam Curry (49:51):
yeah, this is good. This is, I mean, he fought it
for years, and now he'srelented. He's given in. He's
given in to optional ways to usethe tag.

Dave Jones (50:00):
Okay, he's melted into the void. Yes, so here's
what, here's what I'm thinkingfor phase eight. These. I think
these should be fairlystraightforward. He said James's
location tag changes consist ofthe following, and these are

(50:21):
enhancements to the existinglocation tag. Change to location
tag. He wants to add a railattribute. So that's like short
for relationship, a railattribute to say, Okay, this
location is what is it tellingme? Is it telling me this thing
is about the location, or thisis where the podcast is made,

Adam Curry (50:40):
right? This was the big question, yeah, yep,

Dave Jones (50:45):
yep, and I'm and then he's got another, another
proposal, where he's sort of precalculating the, what you might
call the the relevance of thelocation, so that you don't have
to so that makes it easier forthe apps to ingest it. So this,
it's already got all this sortof like relevance data about,

(51:09):
you know, these things are inthis location or around this
area, and then, and then thelast change is just having
multiple allowing multiplelocations per episode, okay? So,
you know, you could imagine ifmaybe an episode is about, you
know, the Eiffel Tower and the,what's that? What's that real

(51:32):
polluted river? Which one thesand? Yes, yeah, maybe it's
about the the sand and the andthe the Eiffel Tower. So you put
both of them in there, thestinky River and the in the I
did not know this. Did you didyou know? And maybe, I'm sure

(51:55):
you probably did. I did notnotice this until recently, that
the Eiffel Tower was created forthe World's Fair. Yes, I

Adam Curry (52:02):
did know that. Actually, I had no idea. Yeah,
it was like the 1889 orsomething. Yeah, sure. Yeah,
that was cool. Well, they

Dave Jones (52:12):
had the stuff

Adam Curry (52:13):
back at the world fairs. I mean, they don't do
those anymore. Do they theworld's fairs? No,

Dave Jones (52:18):
but that, like, I read this. Do you know the book
Devil in the White City? No, Idon't just finished reading that
about three weeks ago. Greatbook about the world, the
Chicago World's Fair of 1893 andman, that's those things were
nuts. Well,

Adam Curry (52:37):
I remember in New York, which, of course, was
featured in Men in Black. Theyhad the all those structures out
there near the airport, whichwas also the site of one of
those early world fairs. Sirbemro says, Seattle Space Needle
was also built for one of theworld's fairs. That was cool.

Dave Jones (52:57):
That was cool. Ferris Wheel. The Ferris Ferris
was created as part of theWorld's

Adam Curry (53:01):
Fair, and now all we have when it comes stuff like
that is house of the future.Yeah, home of the future. I've
been to those. It's such a scam.I know James went to one, and
where was it? He was one of histravels. He was he wrote a piece
about it. And they're always ascam, because they had one in
the Netherlands, home of thefuture, and all it is is just

(53:24):
Phillips and, you know, andBraun and all these other home
goods companies who just puttheir concept models into this
home. Oh, you can have this inthe future. It's just an it's an
ad. It's an ad.

Dave Jones (53:37):
It's gonna, it's just all refrigerators. They're
gonna order your milk for youand stuff

Adam Curry (53:41):
like one day, baby, one day, one day, one day. It's
gonna happen. I know it's gonnahappen. All of a sudden, my
refrigerator will know that I'mout of milk, will automatically
order it, and the man will comein and put it right in my
fridge, right where it belongs.

Dave Jones (53:55):
Pfeiffer, the Ferris wheel at Six Flags St Louis is
not the one from the World'sFair. That is fake news. Fake
News. The ones from the one fromthe World's Fair was exploded
with dynamite after the st LouisWorld's Fair. Awesome. Why
dynamite? I had no idea. Whynot, but that's how you rolled
in 1903,

Adam Curry (54:13):
did somebody say, boom. They're like, what

Dave Jones (54:16):
are we going to do with this thing? Absolutely,

Adam Curry (54:19):
so that. So what else is in a is that it for
eight No,

Dave Jones (54:23):
no, there's also Nathan's follow tag. Ah, yes,

Adam Curry (54:27):
explain the follow tag again.

Dave Jones (54:31):
Well, I've got a I've got so I've got a couple
comments, though. So Nathan'sfollow tag is just a way to is a
way to list out all the variousplaces that a podcast can be
found on these differentplatforms. Yes, and the So

(54:53):
originally it was, let me read.It's kind

Adam Curry (54:56):
of an outgrowth of episodes.fm or comes from the
same Yeah. So. Same feeling,same vibe, Yeah, same

Dave Jones (55:02):
same milieu, million you gotta get along, yeah?
Matching feeds to theircorresponding URLs and third
party podcast apps can betricky. The follow tag would
allow podcasters to verify theirpresence on various platforms by
providing an array of URLs andlinked in a linked JSON file.

(55:23):
This is particularly useful forlocating shows on platforms with
no public lookup method, oridentifying shows with common
names, like real talk inplatforms that only provide a
search API. And so this isoriginally it was in XML, so it
was all this would have goneinto the feed, you know, yes,

Adam Curry (55:44):
I remember this, yeah, yeah. Then now it's an
external JSON,

Dave Jones (55:50):
yeah, and that's, that's what I that's what I
think is, that's what I think isthe problem here that. So I
understand why he did it. Hebased it on feedback, saying
from hosting companies, sayingthat, well, that's gonna bloat
the feed a lot, and we'resensitive to feed size because
of bandwidth costs and that kindof thing. To

Adam Curry (56:11):
feed bloat, feed below. I like this term feed
bloat,

Dave Jones (56:17):
and which is understandable, but there's a
couple of things I just want totalk about around this. And I
think, I think Daniel J Lewiswas right, because, I mean, he

Unknown (56:36):
said, what

Dave Jones (56:39):
he said? He said, we've not talking about, talking
about whether, you know, likebloating the feed with stuff. He
said we've not consistentlyfollowed that logic. For
example, wallet switching is inthe feed instead of episode
metadata, Jason, where itlogically belongs with chapters.
And I think, I think he's rightthat the So, for instance, pod

(57:01):
love chapters are now in thefeed or in the XML. So basically
we have, we originally keptchapters out of the XML because
it would have bloated the XML.No, that's

Adam Curry (57:14):
not. The reason why. Why? The reason why is for
community based chapters so thatyou can have external chapter
creation apps that can be doneoutside of publishing or
republishing the feed.

Dave Jones (57:27):
Oh, I'm sorry, What? What? You're right, what? What
is the what's the other one thathas a transcript? Yeah,
transcript. That's that one isoriginally was, was in a
separate file to keep it frombloating the XML,

Adam Curry (57:42):
but it's still in a separate file. No, it is, yeah.
It is, yeah.

Dave Jones (57:46):
But what I'm saying is, like, we some things. So my
example of pod love chaptersthat's originally people hosting
companies did not want to putthat in their feed because it
bloated the feed. Would ratherhave it in a separate file, but
now, because Spotify supportspod love chapters, everybody

(58:06):
starts putting pod love chaptersin the XML, yes. So I think
Daniels ride that the logic isnot, it's like it's not being
followed consistently. That'sthat's one thing. You know, we
can't tell hosting companieswhat to I mean their their costs
and their, their sensitivities,things like that. Those belong
to them, and they have to makethose decisions. But, but it

(58:27):
does seem to be inconsistent,and I know I never know when
it's okay and when it's notright. But that leads to this
other thing, which is, which is,well,

Adam Curry (58:41):
if I may, I would say that feed bloat is also
important for podcast appdevelopers who, in many cases do
parse a feed. And you know, ifyou're choking on five feeds
that are, you know, 20 megs,because there's all kinds of
stuff in it, I can see wherethat could possibly create

(59:02):
problems.

Dave Jones (59:04):
Oh, for sure, yeah, for sure. And yeah. And Nathan
says he the difference. And thisis what I was going to talk
about. Nathan the you know, youhave two separate you kind of,
they kind of have two separatefeature concepts here. Some
things are are you can justthink about this and say, Okay,

(59:24):
this is a feature that would bein every single feed, like title
or description or image, thingsthat are going to be in every
single feed. It doesn't reallymake sense to have that in a
separate file, but for thingsthat are just, that are never,
that are going to be sort ofselective enhancements to a

(59:46):
feed, those do make more sensein a separate file. But, you
know, like, and I understandthat's a little bit backwards,
because you would think, well,things that are going to be in
every single file, you. Thoseare going to cause feed bloat.
So you may what not want to putit in there, but if they're

(01:00:06):
going to be in every singlefile, and now you're going to
generate two downloads. And soit doesn't really matter if it's
in the feed or not, you're stillpaying, you're still paying the
bandwidth, right, right? So ifit's, if it's an item of of
almost universal desire,

Adam Curry (01:00:27):
item of universal desire. Look at that girl. Look
at that girl over there. She'san item of universal desire.

Dave Jones (01:00:33):
This is odd name space time. So if it's like, if
it's like a universal want,where you can imagine, and
that's what this is like. Youcan imagine that every platform
is going to want to see thisdata, because it tells them
where all the I mean, like, podpage. Pod page wants this. Yeah,

(01:00:54):
they're going to grab that datafrom every feed that has it.
They're going to want everylink, pod news, us. Everybody's
gonna want this data. So you're,if you're a host and you're
gonna provide the followinformation, you're gonna be
serving that data, whether it'sin a separate file, or wherever
there's in the feed. You'regonna, you're gonna be sending
it. So at that point, having itin a separate file is kind of an

(01:01:15):
un makes it unnecessarilycomplicated. Yes,

yes, I'm with you. Affirmative, Captain, I Yes, I'm
with you. So

that's, you know, that's fine. That's why, that's
why it seems to make meultimately, if that, you know,
it's whatever I don't, you know,I'm not gonna die on that hill.
If, if everybody, if the hostingcompany, I mean,

it's really not that huge. I mean, when it comes to
the follow stuff, it's prettylimited in scope.

I don't think it would be much bigger than
chapters, right?

Well, but, you know, again, chapters, the reason for
chapters is for external editingpurposes. No,

no, I'm talking about pod love chapters, the
ones that are in the XML. Um,

no, no, yeah, not real. It's not like a
transcript. It's not, it's not.I mean, look, I'm You're right.
I'm sure that they, the hostingcompanies, look at everything
because of bandwidth, butwhether you're pulling it off
their server as an external fileor in the feed. I don't really,
I don't really see that as adifference in the bandwidth,

(01:02:28):
because it's still, you're stillserving it. I'm looking at it
more from the aggregation side.It's like just a little bit of
extra data.

I mean, initially, initially, you're going to have
probably not very much, like, ifyou, if you left it out of the
feed, when the when you firstimplement it, if you leave it in
a separate file, you are goingto save bandwidth, yeah. But
over time, as people startrealizing this data is there and
start downloading it, then stuffwill happen with it. You're just

(01:03:01):
not gonna say. I don't thinkyou're gonna see much savings.
No, I don't know. Well, I

like that. I like this is a good tag. I like it,
but I think it's a good tag.

Yeah, I will ask for

valid, ask

for more feedback. Valid tag. I've, I've declared
this ballot.

Let's take a breather. Sure I have this is a
great track. This is from Texasboy. In fact, he's right down
the road in Austin, Texas, and Ithink we were trying to get him
for the boost to Grand Ball liveDecember 16. I'm not sure if
that's gonna happen or not. AndI played this one on boosted

(01:03:40):
Graham ball, a new booster grandball this Wednesday, one o'clock
central time. This is AbelJames. This is the Voodoo Queen
on podcasting 2.0 remember toboost and let me know about

Unknown (01:03:49):
every bedroom. We're the Voodoo queen. This cold
sweat is clinging to my bones.She's like Tiger. It gr
and I'm trembling because I knowshe's sharpening her claws.

(01:04:12):
Lord, I can't escape this tangleIf she eats. No, no, I used to
laugh. Used to laugh at magic,but now I do believe

(01:04:35):
my eyes are red and my bodywakes up bruised and blue, she
can't be tamed. There's nothingI can do when she's standing up.
That witch is bruised, Lord, Ican't escape this tangle where

(01:04:59):
she breathes.
Me now, I do believe now,

(01:05:38):
well, I sail a bedroom where theVoodoo Queen just cold, swear
you clinging to my bones. She'slike tigress, and I'm trembling
because I know she's shopping atHer claw Lord, I can't escape.

(01:06:02):
Just Tama with now,
laugh at magic. Now I do booze.You Believe now I Do believe.

Dance. Abel James voodoo Queen podcast in 2.0 and

(01:07:38):
just like any any boardroom whenthe band's on stage, everybody's
mulling around talking to eachother. Hey, man, why don't we
offload that to pod ping, we cando this. We can do this. You
guys are not even payingattention to the band. The band
is feeling bad.

No, I was, it does. It counts, though, that I was
like jamming while I was as

long as you were playing air guitar, it's okay.

Air drums. What is the, by the way, what is the
etiquette? The texting etiquettearound, like, when you reply to
somebody around, like, Ha versushaha, versus hahaha, like, is it
is Ha is just, if somebody sayssomething funny and that you
just say, Huh, oh, okay,

here's, here's how I look at it. Okay, if I'm
surprised because someone made aremark that was like, wow, okay,
you, you pointed something outto me that's ha, capital H, and
then a, lowercase a, exclamationmark, ha, ha. Now, now I now,

(01:08:42):
instead of doing an LOL, if I'mreally happy about something,
then it's a hahaha, I've addedthat to my dictionary, actually,
so I can type in just a coupleof has, and then it
automatically auto corrects.Usually no exclamation mark.

This makes sense to me, because sometimes I will
send you something and you willcome back with a with, like, an
A nine character string, hahaha,with an exclamation point, and
it's super fast. I'm like, Iknow you didn't have time to
type that,

especially not on my cat s 22 which is still my daily
driving jam, baby. I love thisphone. I love it.

I'm like that thing has real buttons. You can't tell
you can't hammer that out realfast.

It's a great phone. It's a great phone.

Nobody uses Rafflecopter anymore, by the
way,

okay, Boomer, no, no one uses that. No one uses that
anymore. Thank you, Dr Scott,for boosting. Abel James, by the
way, Suzanne Santo is onboarded,I think, into a value for value.
Oh, nice. Yeah,

you, uh, you played her. I think you were the first
one to play her. I think youplayed her.

I've been, I've been working her for two years,
trying to get working. Like,come on, girl, come on, get it
together. Uh, yeah. Open Mic is,uh, he's the one organizing this
whole. A antones thing. So I'mjust the MC slash host. You want

to talk quickly about the, about the nasty API
bug that that I fixed, yeah,

yes, that would be good one, because, I mean, yes,
it was a nasty bug, a nasty bug.

So Adam alerted me that one of the, one of the that
he was getting a random episodefrom, from just a he was getting
an episode, he was getting anepisode from a Rando podcast.
Rando, yes, just and I was like,he was like, okay, it

wasn't even a good podcast. It was some wonky
podcast. It was not the right,no,

it was dumb. It was dumb. And so he's like, Well, I
added these podcasts to mycollection here, and and, and it
all looks fine, except I keepgetting this random this episode
from a random podcast that I'venever heard of before, and the

(01:11:07):
podcast was delight, the life ofJB,

die, life of JB. Exactly. How does this even
happen? Yeah,

l, y, F, E, of, J, J, a, y, b, like, oh, like,
okay, so I started looking in.The first thing that popped out
to me was that the the feed IDin the in podcast index for this
feed was 25,000 to 25 000, mmm.Now, now that's a suspiciously

(01:11:44):
round number, yes

for a Rando podcast. Oh, what are we drinking?

Oh, this is a montane grapefruit, peach,
sparkling water.

You're gonna die so early.

This is zero calories or no sugar.

Oh, yeah, natural flavors, yeah, all natural Yeah.
All natural flavors, which iscode for chemical

the No, it's m, O N, T, A, N, E. So I'm like, okay,
25,000 that's pretty unlikely,right? So start look at what the
the end point that I was usingto get these episodes was the
episodes by feed ID, using thenew using the new parameter on

(01:12:32):
the end of newest. So if youtack newest onto the end of that
call, what you can do is you cangive it an array of feed ID of
podcast IDs. So let's say yousay you could give it like five
podcast IDs, and then you canalso give it a max parameter. So
I was like, I want no more thanthis many episodes returned. And

(01:12:54):
then you can give it the newestunary operator, and it will and
that will just give you the themax number that you specified,
newest episodes from this, fromthis array of podcast IDs. And
so I start looking through this.I isolated it to it was a

(01:13:18):
problem on the index. So then Istart digging through this end
point, and what I figured outwas, and everybody, this is
going to make sense toeverybody. So SQL, when you do
SQL queries on when you do SQLqueries, you you don't you use

(01:13:38):
what's called bound parameters.So what you do is you would say
something like this. You wouldsay like, select, select from
episodes where ID equal questionmark, max equal question or
limit equal question mark. Sothat was that. And so then you

(01:14:00):
would go back later, and youwould do what's called binding
those the values to thestatement. So later, you would
fill in those question markswith the values that you're
actually going to use. And whatit does, what this does is it
prevents SQL injection attacks,because bound parameters are not
x i hate. I knew you. I know youdo. Bound parameters are not

(01:14:24):
executed as SQL code their own.They're only allowed to be
values. So this is a, this is afundamentally, this is a
fundamental security thing thateveryone has to do. You have to
use bound parameters. Yes,exactly. No. Bobby Tables, the
so what? And so it should beclear now probably to what's

(01:14:46):
happening here. I got the orderof the bound parameters wrong,
so that the max parameter, whichI was calculating as 25,000 was.
The first parameter in the listand the feed ID array was all
the rest of them, right? Sothat's why it was giving 25,000

(01:15:09):
it was interpreting that as oneof the feed IDs to return, and
then it was just chopping offthe last value from the array.
So I was, I was never gettingcurry in the keeper, because it
thought that was the, the maxparameter and so, but I was
getting the life of JB, yeah,exactly. So this was, this has

(01:15:33):
been a bug in the index, evidentfor about, I think for about two
months.

Oh, only a month. Okay, is because

that's a fairly new parameter anyway, so, yeah,
nasty bug. As

as we've learned, my whole existence in life is to
break things that Dave built.

And you're and you do that so well, I

Unknown (01:15:53):
mean, like you, it's amazing.

I don't know how you do it.

It's why there's two of us, brothers. It's one of
your magical abilities. That'smy superpower. Before we thank
some people. I did just want toask you, since I kind of have I
tuned out from the thread alittle bit, what is the problem
with comic strip bloggers,podcast, not updating? Can we
help this man?

What is it? Did it happen again? I

don't know. It's always like, I mean, he's using
some, what is he, I'm sure he'susing some free host somewhere.

Well, he's using red circle. And they use, they

use pod ping, pod thing, yeah, because he's like,
Oh, it's like, I have 15episodes on red circle, but only
12 in the index. You suck.That's, I mean, not literally
saying that. But he always comesacross that way.

He didn't put it through a chat, CSB to calm that
down at all.

That's just my I just hear him that way. So that
could just be all on me. But itseems like, yeah, yeah, comic
should. Blog has a podcast. Werecords nature sounds, his
lightning and stuff and thunder.

He says, Is it unreliability of ping pong that
can only do so bad.

I said, when I read I'm like, What can we help this
man? Is there anything we cando?

I don't understand why that's happening, I really
don't, I'm, I'm gonna have to,I'm gonna have to dig in.

Has he somehow been automatically de prioritized in
the index parsing system?

Not that I know of. I mean, well,

look at that's something wrong with the ping

pong, all of the, all of the feeds from pod ping
enabled hosts. They're all deeppower test, and they don't pull
right. We just wait for theproblem with, I

think red circle is if he uploads things too fast,
or maybe they're not, they'renot pod, they're not ping
ponging enough. Seems like theydon't seem to slurp the things.
Slurp,

yeah, that's, that's, uh, Brian of London's
thing where you can look up afeed URL to see how many like
when it's been pod pinged orping pong. From

now on, his ping pong, ping pong and pod ping
Hello, oh.

Eric PP just got the boost bot to ping it, so make
sure there's crap flying around.I don't even know what's going
on at the time. I didn't knowyou could even do that from
boost, but nonsense. It's

amazing. It's amazing. All right, we got to
wrap this up. All right,thanking a few people who
boosted in live. 12345, from DrScott for voodoo queen. Great
tune heard on Friday. 11 slashone episode. 199 podcasting. 2.0
podcast with Adam curry and DaveJones. Yes, we still don't have
all podcast apps sending offthat information, which would be

(01:18:54):
great so that, so that someoneknows that this was a boost for
for a certain song. 1776 freedomboost from salty crayon. Howdy
boardroom. I got nothing. Have agreat weekend in the pipe. And
then we got to the pipe. Threeboob boosts from Tim f we got
333. From salty crayon. He says,lol, no worries. He'll look for

(01:19:14):
it this weekend. So we'vefigured out that the fees
discussion was in episode 120.Splits versus fees, and that is
in the show notes. So it'slinked right there if you want
to go listen to that. D's,laughs, 1000 SATs. Shout out to
all the garbage supporters fromCanada, political boost. Triple

(01:19:38):
seven from Mike Newman. Oh, thatwas just a test boost for the
boost spot, and I've hit thedelimiter, so you're good to go,
Dave.

We do. We have no one. We have no monthly or,
excuse me, one offs on the paypals, but we do have some. I'll
just go ahead and read themonthlies, and I'll read the
boot the boost. The monthliesare. Cameron rose, thank you,
Cameron. $25 nice drab. Scott$15 thank you. Dr, Thank you,
Chris, uh, Chris Bernard, Dick,$5 uh. Michael Kimmerer $5.33

(01:20:11):
Pedro gun calvis $5 Kevin Bay $5and Chad Farrow, $20.22

row of ducks and thank you. Those Sustaining
monthly donations. Those arereally important. Those are
great. You know, it adds up. Itadds up, it really does Yes,
thank you so much.

Oh, Franco, just emailed me back a more extensive
thing. Oh, okay, I'll forwardthis to you.

We're going to jail. All right, Italian jail. Italian
jail.

See you guys later. Let's see. Let me sort my thing
here. Okay, but boo. Boost fromcurry, 8008. 808. From fountain.
He says, I'm back. Baby, nice,surprisingly, normally,
surprisingly normal sizedBrazilian booties and pretty New

(01:21:00):
Zealand landscapes had medistracted for a while. Is the
secret project on? Okay, let'ssee, is the secret project an
app dedicated to your favoriteperson ever, Rachel Maddow,
thank you everyone.

Close, close. Even more favorite than Rachel
Maddow, which is

hard to do. Yes, thank you everyone for all your
hard work. Thank you curry.Thank

you Chiron. Good to hear from you brother, glad
you're okay. Glad you, uh, youextracted yourself from
Brazilian booty.

He's got Chiron is a fun guy to hang out with. He's
got some great stories. I'll betChad F 3333 to pod verse, he
says, re listening to see what Imissed since I had a heart
attack during this episode, whatChad f are you for real? Is that
for real? You just kidding?You're gonna have to. You're
gonna have to,

yeah. Are you alright?

Yeah? Me freaked Yeah. Freaked out. Don't

make jokes about this man chat, if his typing. I
can see that in my in my you

can see when he's typing, yes, yeah. Oh, sat
boost,

yeah, oh yeah. That was interesting. So he did send
a million SATs by accident. Hefat fingered it, but his Alby
hub restricted that to 50,000 soI still got the TLV record in my
helipad, which said, Here'sbecause I get 1% split for the
so I can get the live boost. Soit still came through as a
million, but the paymentsbasically didn't go out because

(01:22:26):
of the restriction on Albie hub,which is a good thing and
protect You're saved by I wouldhave refunded you, Brother, no
worries. But I'm glad, glad yougot saved.

Yeah, comes your blogger, the delimiter, 22,000
SATs. Speak of the devilfountain. He says, howdy Adam
and Dave, today, I invite youraudience to the podcast. The
podcast gauntlet hosts MikeWilkerson and Brian insminger
Throw down. Discuss Rise andshine in podcasting. Join Mike

(01:22:59):
and Brian as they uncover theArt and Science of Successful
podcasting with real world tips,tech insights and cultural deep
dives. Perfect, perfect foraspiring and seasoned podcasters
eager to create captivatingcontent and grow their shows,
tune in and step up yourpodcasting game. Yo. CSP,

what is the name of his podcast? Again, I want to
promote CSB podcast. Let

me see, it's honestly kind of generic, and I
forget, Oh, hold on, we

should be able to find that. See, CSB

made it. Let me see, I think it's kind of a generic
name, like, uh, great stuff, orsomething like that,

great stuff, or what

it's like, something like that. You know, he doesn't
really real talk.

He doesn't he that's funny. He doesn't have it in his
in his profile, or anything.What is know it? I've

pinged it so many times.

What is the name of that show? Comic, sort of
blogger, hmm, okay.

CS Oh, it's a CSB field. Is the name of CSB?

Well, hold on a second. Let's go check it out.
CSB field, because it's fieldrecordings. Let's see what he
has here. CSB field recordings,let's listen to the most recent
episode.

Recording part podcast by CSB, rain

drapes the Iberian plains anew. Silver drops adorn
the morning dew as chat GPT palmtrees sway beneath the gentle
rain, nature song unfolds acrossthe terrain. Oh, I gotta pee
real bad. Now

it's killing me.

That's it's an interesting idea for a podcast.
And now, here's winds of Iberia.Oh, cool. And there's Iberia.
Now, here is his neighbor'sdrill. I. A

boost garbage there's one of a garbage truck.
Oh,

this isn't a garbage truck.
You can hear moving the mic too.That's great. It's great. That's
what podcasting is all about,baby. I'm telling you, that's
fantastic. I love it. I love it.

I don't understand why it's not updating, though.

He has high priority now, on the on the bug, on the
bug list, we'll ping pong thepod ping and figure it out.
Brother, we'll take care

of somebody just ping pong him in the boost. But
Ellie, like three times a day,somebody be on call.

All right. Brother, Dave, we'll be back next week.
No,

no, we will not. Oh, I am gonna be gone Friday.

Can I ask what you're doing? I

will be in the forest in the me and my son are
going backpacking.

Oh, can you, can you record some sounds as a special
episode for CSB?

I will. I'll send it to him as a field recording.
Excellent. It's gonna be, it'sgonna be the new, like, it's in
the sipsy wilderness, which isin North Alabama. It's, it's
like tons of of audio potential.So I will send you the field
recording. Okay,

thank you very much. Boardroom. Thank you for being
here. Itbr in the boardroom.We'll be back in two weeks with
another episode of podcasting2.0 Have a great weekend. Dave,
so cool. You

Unknown (01:26:40):
podcasts are cool. Do you hope you have been listening
to podcasting to point oh, visitpodcast index.org for more
information.

Go podcasting. We like pork in the morning. You.

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Episode 199: Feed Bloat

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