Episode 206: Substance Dualist

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for January 10th, 2025, episode
206, Substance Duelist.
Hello, everybody.
It's nice and cold here in Texas.
You are welcome in the boardroom, the official
boardroom of Podcasting 2.0. This is where
the meeting takes place.
This is where you want to be.
We discuss all things podcasting, past, present, and

(00:24):
future.
And of course, we are the only boardroom
that doesn't chase the algos or run uninterruptible
advertising.
I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of
the Texas Hill Country in Alabama, the man
who has not one, not two, but three
secret projects with me.
Say hello to my friend on the other
end, the inimitable Dave Jones.

(00:44):
What does that word mean?
Inimitable?
Yeah, I don't know what that means.
I don't know.
It sounded good though.
I thought I'd just throw it out there.
Is it a real word or do you
make it up?
I think it's a real word.
I think it's you can't be imitated.
Unimitable, I believe.
Inimitable?
No, unimitable.
Maybe it's not a word.
Maybe I made it up.

(01:07):
Unimitable.
Unimitable.
No, it's inimitable.
Are you looking it up?
Are you looking this word up?
Yeah, I'm on the dictionary.
Inimitable, so good or unusual as to be
impossible to copy.
Unimitable.
It's a word.
I looked up unimitable.
No, unimitable with an M.
Unimitable is, unimitable is, come on Webster dictionary.

(01:36):
Hmm.
It says.
Oh, it's an alteration.
It's an alteration of imitable.
Okay.
It's the redheaded stepchild of inimitable.
Unimitable.
Well, you can't be copied.
How about that?
That didn't flow as well as unimitable.
I like saying these things.
I just didn't.
The man who can't be copied.

(01:57):
I didn't know if it was good or
bad, if I should be offended.
It's good.
No, it's good.
It's good.
It's all good.
It's all good, man.
It's all good.
How you doing, brother?
I'm good.
It's a winter wonderland here in Birmingham.
What's your temp out there?
What you got?
Well, it's 35, but it is a blanket
of snow everywhere you can see.
Oh, you have snow.
We don't have any snow.
We have zero snow.

(02:18):
We didn't even get ice, but it is
a, it's like it was 34, I think
this morning.
So it was cold.
It got down to about 30 last night
and it started snowing and like freezing rain
around, uh, around two in the morning.
And then it just kept on going until
about six this morning.

(02:39):
We've got about an inch and a half
on our, in our backyard.
That's not all of it.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Have you gone out and made snow angels?
I did not make snow angels, but I
did go out and try to, uh, coax
the chickens out of the coop.
And they were like, no chickens.
Like, no, I don't think so.
They looked around and they were like, and

(03:00):
they just stood there and stared.
And then I put them back in.
They're like, nope, stupid chickens.
Chickens are dumb.
They're dumb.
They're actually, that's pretty smart though, because if
you go out on a white background, you're,
you're just begging for a hawk to snatch
you out of there.
We're like, no, that's stupid.
I love it when they fly up into
a tree.
I'm always amazed.

(03:20):
What are you doing up there?
How'd you get there?
What's going on?
Sometimes they just launch like two feet off
the ground to about hip level for no
apparent reason.
It's just like, just because I can do
this.
I'm going to do it right now.
Yeah.
And they don't even know, they don't even
know why they did it.
Yeah.
The curry, the curry one sounds good.

(03:41):
I've got many compliments on it.
Yeah.
You sound really good on that mic.
Oh, thanks.
Yeah.
I wonder what the difference is between this
and the RE320.
It's all in the capsule.
It's all in the cap.
The housing almost doesn't matter in my opinion.
Uh, as you can tell, this is much,
much smaller than the RE320.

(04:02):
Which is appreciated by the way, because the
RE320 is a monster.
It's always shows up at TSA is a
huge bomb.
A bomb or the vibrator.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
These days, when we came back from Holland,
um, we had to go through their version
of TSA and you know, I've found that

(04:24):
if I just, you know, cause my bags
often get, you know, secondary screening because, you
know, cause I've, I've got two bags.
I got one bag, which is a shoulder
bag.
It's actually a camera bag and I have
headphones and, um, I used to have the
RE320 in that one, but now the curry
one, I just pop it into my roller
bag, which is a very small roller bag,

(04:44):
but it has the whole studio in it.
And, um, and you know, so I'm always
talking these guys up, Hey, how are you
doing?
You know, just kind of make them feel
better.
And sometimes they look at me like, why
is he doing that?
Does he have something explosive in here?
Um, and the guy, he looked at the
image.
He says, you got a podcast rig in
here.
Oh, he nailed it.

(05:05):
Yeah.
I was like, wow.
Oh yeah.
He's an experienced guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he's like, is that an RE320?
Is that the curry one?
I've heard so much about it.
The curry one.
Wow.
I can recognize it by the capsule.
So what color would you want this to
be?
Because we're, we're looking at different colors.
Dvorak wants a yellow top that you talk

(05:28):
into and I'm against that.
Um, you know, this is going to be,
this is going to be so far out
of my normal thing.
I don't think I've ever said that I
would want something to be white, but white
would look kind of cool.
Really?
A white top with the whole thing white
or just the whole thing?

(05:48):
Like that mic that Glenn Beck has.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
I don't know why.
I think it's probably just because everything like
black is just the, has been the trend
for so long now with stuff.
Everything electronic is going like black cabling, black
housing.
The white just sort of pops and stands

(06:10):
out.
Interesting.
Alex Gates in the, in the boardroom says
Dave sounds good, but I miss his old
sound.
What was it about the old sound that
you, that you liked?
I can put my, uh, I can put
my toboggan over the mic and make it
all muddy like the old sound.
Yeah.
I wonder, I wonder what it is that
he misses.
That's interesting.
I listened back to it and I think

(06:31):
like everybody was saying it was brighter.
I think it has more low end and
his sounds brighter.
Okay.
Okay.
What do you think?
What did you think?
I think it was clearer.
It was less, um, you, it was more
articulate.
Like you could hear my, I think you
could hear my mouth more.

(06:52):
Whereas before you only heard sort of the
words, maybe it may, I wonder if it's,
I wonder if it has to do with
the internal pop filtering, because this clearly has
less internal pop filters.
Yeah, it does.
And you know, remember the re three 20,
that's basically a kick drum mic.
You know, that's what it was built for.
So that's why it has all that pop
filtering built in and this is engineered to

(07:14):
be what we're using it for.
Okay.
Yeah, that makes sense.
That is right.
It was a kick drum mic.
This one, I have to go sort of
off axis because if I don't, it'll pop
pretty hard.
Yeah.
It may not come through to you, but
I hear it.
Yeah, it's there, but I, I've never, you
know, I don't worry about these things.

(07:35):
You don't know.
I don't, I've got all kinds of pops
and clicks and all kinds of stuff.
I don't care.
I just wanted to, you know, I, I
monitor everything I do on in ear buds.
That's what says the old sign was better
too.
Chimp doesn't know what he's talking about.
That just good.
That just shows you the difficulty of getting,

(07:56):
you know, like sound or whatever.
Uh, so Alex says he, he misses the,
he says there was more base.
Really?
I don't think so.
Base that you had, that you had more
base.
I turned off the master compeller.
I wonder if that, that doesn't make any
difference.
I don't think that makes any difference.
Cause you, you mix me down on your

(08:16):
side.
Yeah.
Let me see.
I mean, I can put a little low
end in on, Oh, you, Oh, you'll base
me up.
I'm basing you up, baby.
Let me see.
Give me a little more bottom.
I'm giving you a bigger bottom.
There you go.
Big bottom, big bottom.
He's got a big bottom, everybody.
There you go.
Okay.
A little more bottom, a little more, a
little more queen, just a tad, just a

(08:38):
tad.
So, uh, the news, uh, proves that the
future is hyper-local.
There's no doubt about it.
Talking about what Sam posted.
Yeah.
The global introducing a new nations strategy, dropping
local and regional shows in England.
This is, this is how, what an opportunity

(09:00):
this is.
It's such an opportunity to, to do local
stuff.
I mean, I have hellofred.fm and it's,
it's taken off.
People are digging it.
The, um, same thing that happened to the
same things happened into local radio.
Finally that happened to a local newspapers.

(09:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And well, go ahead.
I was just gonna say websites, like websites
and blogs, uh, that these local newspapers started,
uh, to get in on the web, uh,
on the internet explosion, those, the websites made
the paper in your mailbox seem unnecessary.

(09:45):
And then, and then there was this upward
consolidation that happened, um, as the ad revenue
margins went down because like you've said Facebook
before a Facebook, yeah.
Infinite inventory.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so that you just had to go,
you had, it had to go upstream and
like sort of up the triangle to the,

(10:06):
to the top.
And the same things happening to radio now,
cause you have, um, you know, CarPlay, Android
auto and basically, basically mobile in the car
is making the car stereo seem unnecessary.
And now we see the scene, we see
radio consolidating upwards, you know, until it's going

(10:27):
to hit that last layer, which is the
national sort of parent.
And that's where the advertisers are going to
do all their buying because that's, that's all
they, because that's the last locus of control
for some sort of ad inventory limit.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
It's, um, it's interesting because what I understand

(10:49):
cause you know, global also has, uh, they,
they have the podcast, uh, division and the
podcast division seems to be doing well.
I think they have, uh, what's the, uh,
the news agents, which I like a lot.
I think news agents is a good news
show.
Yeah.
They do have that.
Don't they?
I was thinking that was a cast, but
I think you're right.
It isn't.
Yeah.
And they bought, uh, captivate, I believe.

(11:11):
So, but this, this is exactly the same
thing that happened to I heart.
It's going to happen to serious.
It's going to happen to all these companies
and, you know, and, and now, especially with
tune in crapping the bed, um, which is
in my car has a, has a tune
in app, which is, which is nice.
I, I, I find that a very nice

(11:32):
experience, but I don't really need it.
You know, as far as I can tell,
car, car manufacturers have pretty much given up
on creating an awesome entertainment system because people
just bring their own.
It's customized the way they want.
It's what they use when they're out of
the car.
Why would you use anything else?
Just make, just make the in-car experience,

(11:53):
you know, flow through CarPlay or Android auto.
And I think there's room there for something
else too.
I don't,
I think we may have mentioned this in

(12:13):
the past, but we, there was a company
that like within the first six months of
the index existing, a company contacted us.
I remember this and they did in-car
entertainment systems, um, for, um, for Mercedes BMW,
I think they would high-end stuff.

(12:34):
Yeah.
And they just went away.
Yeah.
They, we, I did, I honestly, I did
tons of work.
I know, I know I side to, to
get the index to work for them in
a way that would basically the index was
going to power podcasting in their car entertainment
systems, power, power, power.
Yep.

(12:54):
And they just, they kept linger sort of
lingering around.
They would pop up every couple of months
and ask another question.
And then at some point after about a
year, they just vanished.
And I guess they just gave up and
said, well, we'll just do Android auto.
I think so.
And, um, and the same with tune in
and we talked to the C wasn't that

(13:15):
the CEO was the new CEO of tune
in at the time.
Not, not whoever's running it now.
It was so he was up in the
C-suite.
I think he was, he was maybe COO
or that guy had come from a radio
public radio Republic.
I can't remember now.

(13:35):
He had come from some, from some startup
that got bought and he got it.
And then he went over to tune in
and was heading their podcast strategy.
And he lasted like six months and bailed.
Yeah.
Well, he didn't understand the whole concept.
He's like, well, you know, first of all,
we had to get business insurance, which we

(13:55):
did.
Um, and then he was like, well, you
know, how do we know we have permission
from all these podcasts?
Like, ah, really?
We're going to go down that road with
you.
Uh-huh.
And I finally just told him, you know,
like, Hey, dude, just, just download the index
off our website.
We're not doing any more terms of service.

(14:16):
We're not doing this.
Like, Oh, they wanted to hold terms of
service.
You're right.
I forgot about that.
Yeah.
They wanted us to add specific indemnifications for
them.
I'm like, nah, man, I'm not doing this.
Stop.
You can just like, I don't care.
Like you, the more, if you use this,
it's just going to make our, you're not

(14:37):
going to pay us anything.
So if you, you, if you use our
directory, all it's going to do is increase
our costs and we get nothing.
So I don't really care.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Uh, like it was, it's like, so just
either use it or don't at some point.
And then, and then like, he, I don't
remember his name, uh, but he gave an

(14:58):
air of being frustrated the entire time we
talked to him.
Yeah, he did.
He did.
Like he was having to go through five
layers of bureaucracy every time he, you know,
opened his laptop, all this to say that.
Um, so I've, I've been running hellofred.fm
for gosh, what is it now?
Three, four months now?
Uh, I think so.

(15:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's been a while.
And you know, the, the concept is so
simple.
Like you have a local, a local station.
Now in this case, I play a Christian
contemporary Christian music and I pay ASCAP BMI
for it.
That's the only thing you can do is
live streaming.
You can actually buy a license for that.

(15:38):
And it goes by listening hours, which if
it, if I had 10,000 people listening,
it would be very expensive.
Uh, but it goes, what is it now?
How much is it now?
It's so you do it through live three
65 and you know, so you buy basically
live three 65 has a standard package and

(16:03):
it has a simple scheduling system.
It does some cross fading between songs and
you can tag things as a station ID
or, um, I think really station ID and
maybe some promos.
You can't, you can't set up your own
categories and, and it does, it does a
decent play out, but when you have a

(16:23):
really long outro, you know, nothing pops in
quick.
So it's, it's just not, it's not that
great.
And then if you want to play licensed
music, then you have to buy the license.
And I think it's, you get 1500 listening
hours for $65 a month.
And that, that goes, they, they take care
of all that.
And it's ASCAP, BMI, PRI, uh, I think

(16:46):
Buma Stemra in the Netherlands.
They have a number of, a lot of
countries that would be in it.
It's all kind of built into one, but
then, you know, the next package is so,
and I actually went over the 1500 and
then, oh, but if you, if you allow
them to insert ads, then it's like 35
bucks.
Okay.
So what, what is it?

(17:08):
What was it initially?
Did you say like 75?
I think it's 75 without ads.
Yeah.
And now, and now I'm up to 130
because I needed 3,500 listening hours.
But are the list, are they quote listening
hours?
Are they just as unverifiable as like podcast
downloads?
No, because you know, they, they, they see

(17:30):
the streams, right?
So they count the streams and how many
minutes the stream has been running.
And in theory, they're taking my metadata and
attributing that on the back end with some
logging in theory.
I don't know if they really are.
Uh, I don't think ASCAP, BMI cares either.
They just want the money and they'll just
divvy it.
They give it to Taylor Swift anyway.

(17:52):
It's the way I see it.
It's Taylor cash.
Yeah.
Um, and, uh, but anyway, the point is
I run promos for podcasts and all those
podcasts are highlighted on hellofred.fm and you
can literally see people hearing a promo.
Cause I can, in the stats, I can
see when the, I know when the promo
ran, I can see, Oh, and then this

(18:13):
same person, the same listener went over and
started looking at that podcast and interacting with,
uh, with the episodes and then grabbing an
episode and playing it.
And so we have, and so God, this
is all Godcaster and we have a customer
in Houston, really big station, a big, big

(18:35):
faith based station.
And they get it, man.
They're like, Oh, we want multiple live streams.
I mean, they're not even thinking about their
broadcasting.
They could be off the air and the
engineers wouldn't even know it, but they're so
excited.
And you know, they've got local people, uh,
podcasts being created locally.
And you know, this is really a way
forward.
Now that's for Houston, Fredericksburg, we only have

(18:56):
19,000 people or I'm sorry, 12,000
people.
So it's not that big.
Um, but people are hungry for it.
They're hungry.
They want to hear the mayor being interviewed.
They want to hear, um, the guy running
ACE hardware, you know, they want to hear
these things.
It's really amazing.
And I, there's no support, there's no support

(19:18):
mechanism.
I haven't, you know, there's no, I mean,
it will be all value for value ultimately.
Um, but there's, I know, I know just
like we see with Boostergram Ball live and
with the V4V music shows, I know that
people will come out and support, you know,
gone are the days of, of being a
multimillionaire from your program, but will you be

(19:41):
supported?
You bet you will.
You bet you will.
It'll be enough.
And it's, it's simple.
I didn't get enough value for you.
I got to stop playing my, stop making
records.
You gave me enough support.
I'm making another record.
It's that simple.
It works.
Dude, we're in our 18th year of no
agenda.
And people always say, Oh, you're begging for

(20:02):
money.
You sad puppy on the newsletter.
Yeah.
Well, we're telling you the truth.
Well, I mean, your, your, your local NPR
station begs for money too.
And nobody gives them a hard time about
it, but they actually beg for it.
They literally beg for it.
We're just saying, Hey, thank you for your
50 bucks, John or whoever it is.

(20:25):
He, you know, here's your message.
You thanks for sending this note.
That's all it is.
It's so, it's so obvious.
Maybe, maybe people just don't, maybe people don't
understand, uh, what hyperlocal, I think some of
these words get thrown around a lot and
would they kind of lose their meaning, but
hyperlocal, like I heard, uh, Kara, the Kara

(20:49):
Swisher thing where she was talking about buying
Washington post.
I think she, I know it's ridiculous.
I think, I think that she threw in
that word, uh, about in that discussion with
Scott Galloway.
And I'm like, you don't, I don't think
you really understand what that means.
I mean, hyperlocal, I don't understand.

(21:10):
I don't think people get how, what the
hyper part means.
It means really, really tiny.
Yeah.
Small.
Yeah.
It's like your block or your neighborhood.
Yeah.
It's very small.
And I mean, if you're, if you're, um,
if your little town can support a nice
hardware, well, it can support your local podcast.

(21:32):
Yes.
Oh, absolutely.
You know, there's, there's lots of, I promise
you there's lots of accountants and lawyers and
small business owners that are making just a
fine living in small and very small and
they're, they're hyperlocal businesses.
Now, why can't a podcast be that?
It can.
And I'll also say that with hyperlocal, I

(21:54):
will also group hyperlocal as a locality of
interest.
So a band can also be hyperlocal for
me.
So it doesn't always have to be geography.
Geography is great for podcasting.
It's, it's less great for music, but even
that is possible.

(22:14):
I don't know.
It's just, it feels, all I know is
the hole is big.
The gaping hole.
The preacher at your local church, that is
a hyperlocal value for value supported salary.
And a content factory.
Yeah.
These are, this is not, I mean, that,

(22:35):
that's, that's purely a donation based system, you
know?
And, and that's that's the way that thing
works.
It can work.
It for sure can work.
I mean, God, the, I think the, the
model that we're trying to build with Godcaster
it's push back against that dropping of local

(22:56):
by radio, like by adding the live item
to every, to everybody's station and, and a
feed and a podcast feed it's the station
itself survives the transition to digital and remains
a local programming source.

(23:17):
It's even hyperlocal.
Yeah.
And the thing about that, cause I've been
thinking about this and when, when Sam posted
that article, I was like, so, you know,
what we're trying to do is, is, is
use these 2.0 technologies like live item
to help these stations survive.

(23:40):
And then it feeds into the bigger podcast
ecosystem because there's got to be a way,
a way for people to listen to the
live items like true fans and podcast, podcast
addict and podcast guru and podverse.
And there's, there has to be a way
for that stuff to be accessible because there

(24:02):
needs to be, like you always call it
a tuner.
And like, and it got me on, it
got me thinking that, you know, I really
want, I don't ever really do this, but
I can't help it.
This one instance, I think I really want
Apple on board with the live item tag

(24:22):
to the point where I think I may
send Ted an email.
I don't expect a reply.
They don't work.
That would be, that would be a game
changer.
Yeah.
That's for them.
I think so.
Do you remember, they used to have FM
tuners in the iPhone.
Do you know that my flip phone still
has an FM radio in it?

(24:43):
Does it?
Yeah.
But you have to connect the wired headset
to it for the antenna.
Otherwise it doesn't work, which is like, how
dumb is that?
No, that doesn't work at all.
I'm not using a wired headphone.
I think that's what, I think that's the
way the iPhone FM tuner used to work.
You had to have the headphones plugged in.
Yep.
Yep, exactly.
Which is probably why, yeah, it's probably why

(25:05):
they did away with it.
The entrance of Bluetooth made that antenna connection
obsolete.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you, they dropped the FM tuner out
of the iPhone with, I think the iPhone
six.
Yeah.
And, um, but that's something it's like, they
used to have tuners in the phones and
that's something like, it's clearly something Apple believed

(25:27):
in.
They believed in radio and they could believe
they could believe in it again.
Yes.
Believe.
Just believe.
You're old enough to remember.
Um, I don't think I actually had one,
but kids who were older than me, we
used to have our boom box and you'd
have it on your shoulder and you'd be

(25:48):
playing your favorite radio station on the beach,
walking down the street and you'd have the
boom box, you know, blasting your favorite radio
station and you'd have record, play and pause
pressed all at the same time for when
your favorite song came on, pop, you could
record the song.
That's right.
It's, it's, uh, and you'd have to stop
and flip the tape every now and then.

(26:10):
Um, but yeah, the live item in, uh,
in the Apple podcast app would be phenomenal.
It was just be, and what would it
really take them to do it?
I mean, it's not a, not a huge
implementation, but it would kickstart something amazing.
That's what I was thinking is that it's
not that big.
It's not, I just want to, like I

(26:31):
said, that's this, it's not the way they
work to respond to emails and say, hey,
this is a good idea.
We're going to work on it.
That's just not what they do.
They don't even respond to customers who have
spent thousands of dollars on their products.
I know.
I know.
Here's a help.
Here's a knowledge-based note.
Go look at that.
If you're lucky.
Yeah.
Um, but that, they don't do it that

(26:52):
way and that's fine.
But I do want to at least broach
the topic because I feel like it's not
really about, um, it's not really about Apple
themselves.
I don't, it's for me, it's about the,
um, I think it's a, it's a, it's

(27:14):
odd that they don't do it.
Like it's such a natural fit for them
and their sort of, uh, you know, I
don't know, milieu or, or, or ethos that,
that if I see it very similar to
transcripts, it's an obvious ad for them.

(27:35):
And, uh, because they, they already support, um,
they already support like, so here's the way
it could go.
Like whenever the Apple, an Apple event keynote
happens, there could just be an Apple feed
in the podcast app and you get to
watch it live.
How about this right there in the podcast?
How about this?
They become the new tune in.

(27:56):
There's not a single radio station on the
planet that does not have a live stream.
Not a single one.
Every single radio station has a live stream.
We have the, we have everything all fleshed
out.
We got, we, it's, it's all sussed out.
It's been working for a long time.
There are many podcasts that use it.

(28:16):
Um, and they would have such a competitive
edge.
I think Spotify would have a hard time
even getting, catching up with them.
I'm not, I'm not sure why I'm saying
that, but it feels like they don't have
the, they, yeah, it just feels like they're
focused on so many other things.
It would just be very competitive and it'd

(28:37):
be great.
And they could become the de facto for
in-car radio listening.
They could do all kinds of cool things
with, um, with their, with their existing index.
Of course, you know, they're happy to use
ours.
Uh, Hey guys, save yourself some money, use
ours.
Well then, you know, and, and if they
want to, you know, if they, if they
wanted to enhance the spec and say, Hey,
this, we would do it, but it needs

(28:59):
to be, uh, we're only going to support
it if it's like HLS or, you know,
an MP3 stream or whatever, because the spec
is very loose, you know, it can, it
can adapt to whatever there is.
And they would say, okay, yeah, that's all
that.
All that makes sense.
You know, you can just basically do whatever
you want within the bounds of the spec
and we make the spec work for them.

(29:20):
And they, you know, I just think that
it would be a humongous win right now
at this point in time.
Bingo.
Because we, we, for like for the, for
the Godcaster follow button, we give a whole,
we list a bunch of podcasting 2.0
apps.
Yeah.
Is we list all the 2.0 apps
that are supported.
Yeah.

(29:41):
Uh-huh.
That, and, and we, we include one that
doesn't, which is Apple, just because it's such
a big app and everybody's going to ask.
And you just have to know that it's
not going to support all the features, but
you just have to add it because everybody's
going to say, where is it?
Yeah.
But if it did support the features, that

(30:01):
would be awesome.
And I should add that every single radio
station has their own native app.
And most of them use some app, you
know, a handful of app companies that do
this.
They all have their live stream in there.
So what are people going to use?
Yeah.
It's up to them.
And it's just a simple tag too.

(30:23):
Maybe they're all busy.
Maybe they're all busy making Siri work properly.
I don't know.
Or not work.
Or not work.
Yeah.
Or not work at all.
Yeah.
Well, by the way, I've got, uh, I've,
I've, I've got some, uh, some clips from
Sir Libre's, uh, feeding of the troll room
into notebook LM.
Is that because I, I, you know, I

(30:44):
never listened to your clips.
You sent me some clips and it says
N A I R C clip one, two,
and three.
I'm like, I want, Oh wow.
The volume's real low on this.
Who did this?
Libre did it?
Yeah.
Can you juice it?
Yeah.
Come on.
I'm the pod father, man.
I can juice that stuff.
It's already done.
What are you talking about?
So it takes me just a few seconds

(31:04):
to juice it.
So what, so what is it?
Are we going to play this now?
Uh, yeah, it's the note.
So, uh, Cola Mona, uh, Sir Libre, he
put, he, he took like, I don't know,
months.
No, wait a minute.
Is Sir Libre.
Is he also, is he Sir Spencer in
disguise?
No, no, it's not.
It's a different guy.
Okay.
I have no idea.

(31:24):
I'm so confused by, uh, by all the
different, wow.
This last clip is really, he's a lot
of juicing.
Oh, you just give it double juice.
No, I'm, I'm up to time.
I'm, I'm up to seven.
Uh, let me see what it's seven juice
metrics, seven juice units.
I'm, I'm amplifying seven DBs.
Oh, golly.
Yeah.
So note notebook.

(31:46):
Uh, I, you see, I usually juice them.
I pre juice them before I give them
to you.
You did not, you did not give me
pre juice stuff, man.
It's like, I got to bring my own
juice to the party.
Nice.
I was snow blind from the Birmingham snow.
All right.
So, uh, set it up and I'll, I'll
get into it.
Well, this is like months, I think months
of the troll room chat.
Oh, he took the whole troll room chat

(32:07):
and put it into notebook LM.
Yeah.
I think it's like, let me, let me
find, I think it's like months of troll
room chat.
Are we going to dive into it with
these, with these Jim Oakes, these phonies?
Let me see.
Uh, let me see exactly real quick though.
First, how many I can find how many
months of this he did.
Cause it was like, I want to say

(32:28):
like six months of troll room, which is
way too much.
Wow.
Troll room.
Uh, can I find this?
Uh, I don't know.
Let's dive in and I'll find it.
Let's dive in.
I'm very excited to hear what they make
of this.
All right.
Buckle up because today we're going deep diving
into some serious podcast.
Wow.
Right off the top.

(32:49):
Buckle up deep dive.
Oh man.
They got to change the model on this
thing.
We're talking about the chat logs from the
no agenda show.
You know, the one with Adam Curry and
John C.
Dvorak.
Yeah.
The IRC channel.
That's old school.
Right.
During one of their live recordings.
So we're going to see what the fans
were saying as the show was happening live.

(33:10):
Hold on a second.
A not fans B maybe producer C trolls.
It's fascinating.
Really?
It's like a window into how these dedicated
fans engage with the show in real time.
And you know, those no agenda episodes are
long, like three hours every Thursday and Sunday.
Yeah.
So that chat is going for a long

(33:31):
time.
So they build this whole little world in
their little world.
And they're constantly reacting, you know, to what
Adam and John are talking about, building their
own inside jokes and even trying to influence
where the show goes next.
It's pretty amazing.
Yeah.
They're not just passive listeners.
They're like active participants.
Exactly.
And remember, no agenda is ad free.
It runs on that value for value model.
So the fans are directly supporting the show.

(33:53):
Yeah.
Which makes the chat even more interesting because
it's this direct line of communication between the
fans and the creators.
Hold on a second.
I wonder, did Libra put that, did he
put in there the value for value or
did they glean that from the IRC logs?
Did he have a setup?
I mean, if they got all that from

(34:13):
the log, I'm very impressed.
Here's what he said.
He says to 24,950 lines of IRC
chat from hash no agenda IRC channel, December
28th to January 9th.
OK, so it was only like a couple
of weeks fed into notebook.

(34:33):
LM is interesting how much they get right
and how much they totally get wrong.
He only mentions that he fed in the
IRC chat.
He doesn't mention anything else.
OK, let's go to clip two.
But this reads like, but it sounds though,
like it sounds like a native ad for
no agenda is what, you know, remember they're
doing that value for value model.
They don't take ads.

(34:54):
I know, I know.
Every Thursday and Sunday.
That's right, except they didn't catch it.
We call them trolls.
We have a troll count, you know, so
OK, let's go.
So let's start with Doug.
Doug.
The bot.
He's like the heart and soul of this
chat, keeping things organized and throwing in some
witty comments along the way.

(35:14):
Doug's a busy guy.
He announces when the show's live with a
pod ping bat signal detected, keeps track of
everyone's karma points, even cracks a few jokes
now and then.
I love that.
It's like he's a character in the chat
himself.
He is.
And speaking of karma points, it's amazing to
see the hierarchy in there.
Oh, yeah.
You've got J.C.D. with like 18000
points.

(35:35):
Clearly a veteran of the no agenda community.
Right.
Like a king of the chat room.
And then you got others like a birdie.
Jerry, you had 1666 Matthew Dunage with fifty
four forty one even titties clocking in at
40 points.
Forty.
Wow.
You say it's a diverse crowd.
Not quite understanding the karma points.

(35:56):
You know, when when we first started, no
agenda stream, I was running the stream and
I ran it from my house.
I think it was I was in Los
Angeles at the time.
And so I had a 24 hour streamer
and it was not very sophisticated.
We're talking 2008, 2009, something like that.

(36:17):
Maybe it's maybe I remember that.
And I would have Doug and Doug was
an early voice synthesis system.
And Doug would do time and weather and
Doug would read like a headline or something.
I had all kinds of scripts set up.
It was kind of remember.
I remember that because Doug was you could

(36:37):
like.
Hi, this is.
Yeah.
And he would come on the stream, you
know, and announce the next podcast.
Yes, yes, yes.
Oh, good time.
I remember when that was running out of
your head because you were in the that
was I was in the Hollywood Hills now
on fire.
But didn't didn't it wasn't it still that

(36:58):
way when you were in the garage?
Yes.
Yes.
You're right.
In the garage.
Man, you remember that stuff.
Yeah, man, I was there, bro.
That's amazing.
They've got all these running gags and inside
jokes.
It's really creative and quick witted.
Like what?
Give me an example.
Well, they kept talking about gigawatt coffee, gigawatt
coffee.
Yeah.
I think it's a reference to Adam Curry's

(37:19):
high energy personality.
And then there's artificial curry, which is a
playful jab at AI.
That's hilarious.
And these running gags just evolve organically.
They become part of the chat's unique vocabulary.
I love that it's like they've created their
own language.
They have.
And it's constantly changing and adapting as the
show goes on.

(37:40):
I also noticed a lot of a kind
of plus plus sprinkled throughout the chat.
What's that all about?
Ah, that's their way of giving someone karma
points like a mini upvote system.
So if someone makes a funny comment or
a sharp observation.
Yeah, you just hit them with the plus
plus.
It's a way to acknowledge each other's contributions.
It's like their own social currency within this
chat.

(38:00):
Exactly.
And everyone's playing the game trying to earn
those points and climb the ranks.
It's fascinating.
This no agenda chat is more than just
a bunch of people typing at each other.
It's a complex ecosystem with its own rules,
language and social dynamics.
Wow.
I just had an idea.
It's a did you ever have you ever
thought of the troll room as a complex

(38:21):
ecosystem with its own rules?
Totally, totally.
That's how I think of it all the
time.
Cotton gin.
Think about if you did a plus plus,
you could send a zap to somebody.
I thought the same thing.
What a great idea.
Yes.
Plus plus means means like a a boost.

(38:43):
Well, you know, I have to say.
Ever since I got the primal app, which
has a wallet built into it, and I
think they have a business account or some
business relationship with strike, I could be wrong
on that.
But they have a wallet, which is clearly
some custodial thing, I guess.

(39:04):
Maybe not.
I don't know.
Maybe I don't know.
I have no idea.
But the primal app for Nostra is there's
a couple of things I would like differently,
but is a good app.
And I'm not all that interested in most
of the content.

(39:25):
But when I flow something through fountain.
And and it shows up in Nostra and
people start to comment there.
It's kind of an exciting experience.
It's a very small community because I can

(39:46):
I can just say something like, hey, I'm
having a problem with my lightning node and,
you know, boom, boom, boom.
We got a lot of comments.
I don't think I'm being followed by that
many people.
But it's just it's relatively what is it,
maybe 40,000 active people, maybe.
I don't know.
But as I look more into.

(40:08):
What's capable, what you can do outside of
the social network, how you can flow content
through the Nostra protocol, I guess, or whatever
you want to call it.
I see a lot of opportunities and I've
been desperately trying to follow along with what
Stephen B is doing because he he in
essence, this split box that he's creating and

(40:30):
I think he's gotten a little sidetracked, but
I'm obviously OK.
I'm just trying to follow along.
So he is now making zaps splittable through
the split box.
Right.
And so I can't help but think that
there is a natural fit between podcast feeds,
podcasting 2.0 feeds and the Nostra protocol,

(40:51):
not necessarily the Nostra network itself.
I'm just seeing, by the way, how how
funny is it that Dare Gigi came up
with the how was it the prism splits
or whatever he came up with must must
be two years ago now.
Not a single person has done any development.
No, that has to come from our group.
Just saying.

(41:14):
And it's almost like, well, if there's this
group of tens of thousands of people and
they clearly know how to onboard and there's
app development going on.
Why wouldn't we incorporate zaps into our existing
system?

(41:35):
Because it's no different from a boost at
this point.
If you can hit a button, type something.
Well, actually, I don't think there's any message.
There's no there's no concept of a booster
gram in Nostra.
But it's it's I mean, I I've got
like 80,000 sats just from being on
this thing for a month.

(41:56):
And that's just people zapping me.
Now, if I could split those.
I mean, I just see opportunities.
I mean, a zap is just an LNURLP.
Exactly.
I mean, we already do.
I mean, I know.
But, you know, right now, if I look
at the stats of what we see on
the index, which is definitely not everything, it's
ninety nine percent fountain.

(42:19):
Everything else with Albi apocalypse has kind of
fallen off the radar.
And I'd love I mean, it's going to
take time to get that back.
I mean, like because if Primal is just
a strike, Chad says Primal is just using
strike black strike black wallet.
I mean, if what is that?

(42:41):
Can anybody use the strike black wallet?
Well, I think I think that's just the
white labeled strike.
But as well, I think that's what I
don't think I didn't have any KYC when
I said, give me a Primal wallet.
Just saying.
So I don't know how that works.

(43:01):
It just feels like there's wallets and stuff
out there in Nosterland that is just begging
to be incorporated into our stuff.
If you know, if if it all works,
I don't care what you call it.
But just see, that's that's at the app.
That's at the application layer, though.
And, you know, that's that's just at the

(43:21):
application layer.
I don't think that that's if if podcasting
2.0 app developers individually want to do
that, you know, that's that's their prerogative.
And I'm you know, I'll support them and
whatever they want to do.
But, you know, but I don't I don't
think that it really requires any special podcasting

(43:44):
2.0 protocol level things.
I think all that stuff's already done, you
know, because I mean, this is all application
layer stuff.
If they the the.
I guess what I'm saying, try this on
for size.
I'm saying, what if you can choose in
your app?
Well, I just I have zaps all set

(44:05):
up.
Just make the boost button work with that.
Doesn't that take away all these other issues
of integrating a wallet and doing all that
stuff?
Is it just isn't it just the LN
URL pay link click and it just works?
Or am I mistaking that?
Describe that again.
I'm not sure I'm following.
So.

(44:26):
I have the primal app, but then I
also have the primal dot net web login
and I log in and then I can
use the same wallet for zapping people that
I use on the mobile.
So I don't have a wallet sitting here
in my in my desktop computer.

(44:46):
So it's making these links to somewhere.
So if those if those links work like
that, why wouldn't if we have the split
box capability, why wouldn't I just surface a
zap button in a podcast app as an
alternate or turn the boost button into a
zap button?
I don't care.
And I'm saying and I'm saying I think

(45:08):
I'm saying I think you can do that
because that doesn't really.
So Nostra is two things.
Nostra is an authentication protocol and it's an
authentication and message signing protocol.
And then it's a WebSocket protocol, a JSON
based WebSocket protocol.
And they really can be independent of one

(45:29):
another.
Like if you if somebody wanted like if
I generate a not a quote unquote Nostra
identity, which is just a which is just
a key pair.
I mean, it's not, you know, they do
they have a little bit of their own
flavor to it to get the right to
get sort of prepackaged outputs, the in pub
and the insect and whatever.

(45:49):
That's fine.
But if I want to use that key
pair facility or protocol to generate an identity
that that is Nostra compatible, but also a
standalone thing, it's a key pair.
It's just math.
If I want to use that and then

(46:10):
send an LNURLP payment and attach that identity
to it, that's fine.
You know, that's fine.
The problem with the problem with Nostra from
a podcast, from an app developer's perspective, has
always been not the authentication part, but the
message signing part.
Identity part, but the WebSocket protocol part.

(46:33):
Sockets are hard.
I'm going to tell Tina that tonight, baby,
just so you know, sockets are hard.
Give me a break.
Most app developers, modern app developers, are used
to HTTP calls.

(46:53):
They're used to REST based HTTP protocols where
they're communicating with a backend.
Socket programming, we call it WebSockets, but it's
still a socket.
And it has all the same difficulties as
programming with a TCP socket, you know, or

(47:15):
a named pipe or something like this.
These are at their core, not really that
much different than a Unix socket on a
local level.
And that requires a lot of layers of
management within your code.
Because now, all of a sudden, you're talking
about race conditions.

(47:38):
You're talking about...
Oh no, not the dreaded race condition.
Yeah, race conditions, mutexes, semaphore handling.
There's a lot that happens when you have
a, what is essentially an unmanaged open connection
between two endpoints, that you are pushing and
pulling packets back and forth.

(48:00):
And so that's the difficulty with a protocol
like Noster.
It's something that most mobile app developers are
just not going to get it.
I don't mean from an intelligence standpoint.

(48:22):
I mean, they're just not going to invest
the time to do that.
But I don't think it's necessary to implement
the Noster protocol in order to do the
thing that you're talking about.
Okay.
Well, I guess what I'm saying is I
see a community of users, call them people,

(48:43):
who understand the basic value for value moniker.
And I see that they have tools that
enable them to do it.
And I want to find out how can
we get those people, and maybe what Stephen
B is doing is a podcast pops up

(49:05):
on Noster, whether it's a page, a library,
a social network, I don't care.
The social network part is the least interesting
to me.
It's the fact that there's a value for
value exchange mechanism, which works and is understood
by both users and developers.
And somehow we're not connecting those dots.

(49:28):
I'm not sure how to explain it any
differently.
You're saying that, if I understand you correctly,
are you saying that you want to tap
into the Noster world's zappers to bring them
into the, to be able to send value

(49:52):
into podcasting 2.0 apps?
Yes.
That's what I'm saying.
Thank you.
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, I just, I think that's, I
think that's very, I think that's very doable.
The only thing I would caution against though,
is, I really, we've, we've talked about this.

(50:16):
I feel like many times the, the somehow
merging of some sort of Noster thing with
RSS, please don't.
Like, it's just not, it's, it's ultimately going
to fail and just be a big mess.
Like, I don't, at the application level, this

(50:38):
stuff needs to really stay separated so that
you have, okay.
Like, there's nothing stopping, there's nothing, okay.
So there's nothing stopping somebody like, let's say,
let me think of an example.
Let's, let's say, Castamatic.

(51:04):
There's nothing stopping Franco from saying, okay, when
you, when you, when you fire up a,
when you fire up your, your Castamatic app,
it's going to ask for your Noster, if
you, do you have a Noster ID?
Right.
And you say, yes.
All it's going to do is just store
that, store that NPUB.

(51:26):
It's going to store your, your identity.
And somewhere that, that NPUB knows where my
wallet is, correct?
Or is that incorrect?
Well, the, it's in the metadata for the,
for the identity.
Okay.
So it could store, it could store your
identity, it could store your identity, basically make
one call to, you know, a hundred relays

(51:46):
or whatever, all the ones it knows about,
pull down your identity.
And then it never really has to communicate
with the Noster world again.
Okay.
No, that's fine.
That's fine.
Like basically it's just, it's just checking, does
this person have a wallet that exists somewhere
on a Noster relay?
Yes.
I think that's what I'm, what I'm talking
about.
Okay.
Well then, and then, and then it's not,

(52:07):
you know, it could do stuff on that
network later, but it doesn't have to that.
And, and that's, I think what I'm saying
is like, it could be done.
And I'd really, I think that, that is
the way you basically, you, you make, you
grab an identity just just like you could
grab an identity from whatever, I mean, Twitter

(52:28):
through OAuth or anything like you make this
one call, get the identity and get the
information you need.
And then you can, you know, store that
and begin to now, now you're, now you're
back in RSS world and you can make,
you can send payments and do these things
that you want to do.
Okay.
So, so the next thing that flows into

(52:49):
this.
Because let me, let me just say one
more thing because, because Castamatic, the idea of,
of Franco maintaining an open web socket connection,
it's not happening.
I understood, understood.
Yeah.
And I, and I, and I'm, I'm with
you on that.
Okay.
I'm just trying to make connections.
And then the next thing is, is do

(53:11):
you know if Fountain is already honoring LNURL
splits?
Because until they do, nothing's going to happen.
Who?
Fountain?
Yeah.
Because I, there's no evidence, there's no evidence
it's working because I have LNURL splits in,

(53:32):
in, in this feed and people are boosting
from Fountain, but that split is not getting
anything.
Well, the test, the test that, that Oscar
created was the Fountain radio feed and that
works, right?
I mean, we tested that.
Right.
Well, it doesn't work currently with boosts and

(53:56):
I think it has to.
I don't know.
I don't know the answer to them.
Yeah.
I think Fountain has to take the lead
on this and, and make that work so
we can figure out what, what doesn't work
and what does work and troubleshoot, et cetera.
Because I have, you know, I have my
Adam Curry at strike.me address in a

(54:18):
split and I'm not getting anything.
Eric PP, he's, he says you need something
in Nostra to zap.
You can't just zap an RSS feed, but,
but that's not what I'm talking about, Eric.
That's not what I'm talking about either.
No.
Yeah.
What I, Eric, what I'm saying is in,
is that if, if Adam is talking about
allowing people, allowing people to bring a Nostra

(54:42):
wallet sort of connection, like I have a
Nostra identity that has a wallet in it
and I over in primal and I want
to go over here and do this, do
this thing on this podcast app, I could
just bring the identity with me.
And since it's LNURLP, I should be able
to do to, to make that work.
Exactly.

(55:02):
That's what I'm talking about.
Unless, unless primal, and this could be the
case, unless primal is doing something proprietary.
Could be.
It's very possible.
I have no idea.
Yeah.
But if they're just using Strikes API, well
then, you know, podcast apps should be able
to do that too.
I'll throw a wrench into the, into the

(55:24):
machine.
Did you follow this?
Did you follow this rumble announcement that they
got a $775 million investment from Tether?
No, that's an odd.
How much?
$775 million.
And.
That's a lot of money.

(55:45):
I can't help but think just having followed
ever since Trump announced the strategic Bitcoin reserve
and Senator Loomis is, you know, that bill
is being introduced and I think that will
happen.
And let's not get all jihadist about it.
Just, I'm talking to the boardroom.
Let's just talk about reality and what's happening.

(56:07):
It is very possible that the United States
will create currency by allowing companies such as
Tether, which will be run through Canterfix Gerald,
I think, you know, there's going to be
a lot of stable coins and Trump, even
Trump, Trump is a meta guy.

(56:29):
People don't realize this.
When he said, I like the Bitcoin and
the stable coins, he sees the capability, because,
you know, Tether is backed by Bitcoin.
It's backed by treasuries.
Are they like one of the top three
holders?
Yeah, I think they're the biggest holder of

(56:50):
T-bills.
So the concept is to give the U
.S. dollar, to maintain the U.S. dollar's
dominance.
You allow a lot of stable coin and
I think it'll be Tether, could be USDC.
I don't know.
I don't know too much about that world,
but you allow them to create stable coins

(57:12):
on top of, you know, to mint stable
coins on top of the T-bills, which
gives the United States an enormous advantage by
selling debt, which is immediately monetized in U
.S. dollar denominated tokens.
And already, I mean, you think Russia's cut

(57:34):
off from SWIFT?
You think it makes a difference?
No, people are sending stable coin back and
forth.
And the way stable coins work, you can
send them on the Bitcoin blockchain.
You can send them on Tether, on Ether.
You can send them through a whole bunch
of different blockchains.
And I presume that with the changes that
were made to Lightning, they will also run

(57:55):
through the Lightning network.
So what I'm saying here is that would
be very interesting and something to just keep
tracking if the U.S. starts to make,
because, you know, everybody wants dollars.
Every country wants dollars.
And if they can get these dollars easily
and simply by getting them through blockchain and

(58:17):
so the U.S. dollar through stable coins,
you know, maintains its dominance as it's pegged
as the world currency.
Basically with, I think in an odd way,
with Bitcoin being the settlement layer, that's something
we need to track because if people start

(58:38):
to, and I think there's been a lot
of talk that Strike even uses stable coins
to send stuff back and forth.
I don't know the details of it, but
it's something to track that we may or
may not.
I mean, I can already hear the purists
saying, oh no, that's no good.
That's a shit coin.
But my mission in life is to make

(59:00):
sure that people can get value for value.
And it may be something we need to
be tracking to look at of stable coin.
And it can, I think it can run
over the Lightning network.
So the things that we're doing are important
for the future, but we have to be
open.
I think we should be open to looking
at all the different flavors of that value

(59:21):
transfer that are coming down the pipe.
What, what are the T-bill, what kinds
of T-bills are they holding?
Are they like three to five year?
I think very short term, very short term,
I think.
Yeah.
Very short term.
So like three months, something like that?

(59:41):
Yes.
Three months.
Yeah.
This, this might be, uh, this sort of
feels like we're on the verge of like,
um, what we'd call it Bretton woods three.
There's always been talk of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
There's something fun.

(01:00:02):
The fact that a, the fact that a,
that a crypto currency company can become the
number one holder of treasury bonds of treasury
bills.
That is weird.
Would nobody tell me you saw that coming
five years ago?

(01:00:24):
No, no, did not see it at all,
but it makes total sense because if, if
we are, I think it's twofold.
I truly believe if the United States were
to turn all those stupid AI debt data
centers into Bitcoin mining centers, which will, I,
I have the theory that will eventually happen.

(01:00:45):
Um, backing your stable coin, your us dollar
denominated stable coin on that and a short
term us debt keeps the United States as
the King of the world without having to
continuously go blow people's countries up for oil
and other things.
Cause all that, all that is, that's no

(01:01:07):
longer an advantage.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
So a non-war, a non, Hey, a
non-war backed currency.
Sign me up.
Yeah.
I mean, I really care.
I'm with you.
I kind of don't care what it's, what
it is, you know, with you on that.
So it's just something to keep, keep an
eye on.
Um, uh, I'm, I'm not sure where it's

(01:01:29):
going, but I can feel it.
I can just feel like something's going on.
That's, that's, yeah, that's, that's interesting.
Cause we, we, we don't really know, I'm
like you, I think, I think there was
the big, the strategic reserve thing.
I think that will happen.
Um, and, and if it does, that tells
you, I mean, those things don't just happen.

(01:01:52):
They don't just happen.
They have, um, it will, you know, this
is actually, this is funny.
Cause I'm, I'm doing this thing that I
thought of like, when I was listening to
the, to the Sir Libra's like clips about
the troll room, uh, that, that, um, fake
podcast.
Um, you know, I had posted something earlier

(01:02:14):
in the week that the world is not
prepared for LLM powered fishing emails.
It's not, it's not, it's not.
Here's how, here's how this, and I'll, I'll
promise I'll tie this in here.
Here's how this will go at some point
in the future.
Um, you're going to have how, how it

(01:02:37):
works now, the most insidious of phishing scams.
Um, and this would be, these would be
like a business email compromise scams or somebody's
office three 65 credentials get compromised.
The hacker logs into their mailbox, takes over
their, their office, their, uh, uh, hosted exchange

(01:02:57):
mailbox, start sending out emails to their people
in their contacts list gleaning.
Uh, they, they look back through their email
history and so then they insert themselves into
a prior conversation so that it is very
hard to detect that this is a new

(01:03:19):
actor who's just entered the mix and is
now, you know, it's, you're not talking to
the real person anymore because it's coming from
their mailbox.
All the stuff checks out and they're using,
they're replying to threads that previously exist on
your side and their side.
Very difficult.
The only thing that gives it away is

(01:03:40):
a lot of times they don't, they don't
talk the same and they use sort of
giveaways.
This, the LLMs could go in there and
just make a, build a quick local model
of everything in that person's mailbox, every sent
item that person has ever sent so that
it's speaking exactly like this person would speak.

(01:04:02):
And that is something no scam, no scanning
filter, no, no fishing filter, no heuristics are
going to catch it.
No, unless you have an AI on the
other side, which is going to have to
sort through it and confine the, uh, the
anomalies.
Oh yeah.
I mean, it's going to get, it's going

(01:04:23):
to be bad and also it's going to
be bad, but also people fall for the
dumbest things.
It's pig butchering people, you know, and it's
not just men.
I've learned a lot of women fall for
these things, particularly middle-aged older women who
think they found a new friend and they
fall in love.
And, you know, it's always the, the sex
organs that, uh, that make the blood drain

(01:04:44):
from the brain.
I'll send you money.
I'll help you out.
Sure.
No problem.
There's this, uh, guy, there's this guy named,
uh, Ian McGilchrist.
Have you heard of him?
I don't think so.
He wrote a book.
He's written a few books.
He's, uh, I think he's, I think he's
made, he's out of the UK.

(01:05:05):
I'm not sure what university he's maybe Oxford.
I don't know, but he, he wrote a
book, he wrote sort of, he wrote a
very scholarly work and then he wrote sort
of a, um, a more accessible book.
Um, the, the, the scholarly work, it's like
two volumes.
I don't remember the name of it, but
then the sort of condensed, more accessible version

(01:05:28):
of that work, um, is called the master
and his emissary.
And it's about the mind, the human mind
and the brain.
And this guy is a, uh, what you
might call a substance dualist.
I mean, he, he believes substance dualist.
Yeah.
I call people that all the time.
What does that even mean?
Like that, that, that, that humans are based

(01:05:50):
are, are two substances.
They're a metaphysical substance and a physical substance.
So you're, you're a mind and a brain.
You're not just a brain, you know?
And so the, the, the, you is, is,
is the synthesis of these two substances.
And he, so this, you know, he, he

(01:06:12):
makes the point, uh, it's a very good
book.
I mean, he makes the point that we
humans are meaning makers.
We, we are the only things in the
universe that do that.
We give, we, we give everything meaning, we
can't stop it.
It's a, we are, it is a fundamental

(01:06:36):
core aspect of what being a human is
because it is the thing that makes us,
it is the thing that makes us distinct
as we give, we give meaning to things.
Remember, you know, remember, you know, we talked
about this before, this deep, uh, philosophy when
you get into meaning.
Yeah.
And about we've, we talked about aboutness the,

(01:06:58):
the aboutness is a property is a non
-physical property.
This only possessed by the human mind for
our, for our Canadian listeners.
That's a bootiness.
That's right.
Hoser.
The, a bootiness is a, is a, is

(01:07:19):
a property of thoughts and functions of the
human mind.
We think about things, we give things meaning
and video.
I was kind of musing on this a
little bit yesterday.
Video doesn't have this quality to it.
Like television, you know, the dumbing down of
the, of the American mind or whatever, you

(01:07:40):
know, this video or musing ourselves to death
or whatever that book was.
Yes.
Yeah.
Neil Postman.
Yeah.
Uh, television, television makes you this sort of
alpha wave zombie.
Totally.
Where you turn off most of the features
of your mind.

(01:08:01):
Um, we watch something happen and then we
tell ourselves after the fact, we tell ourselves
a story about what we saw.
Um, so like you've, you've, we watch a
movie and during the movie, you were just
experiencing the series of images and sounds.

(01:08:23):
Then after you have the, and people, people
express this in different ways.
Sometimes they'll say, okay, I just need a
minute to process this.
You hear people say that after they've seen
something, something very moving, or are they something
they thought was important and what they, what
they're actually doing is they're saying, I need
to think about this in order for me

(01:08:43):
to understand it.
I have to think about what I saw
and tell myself a story about that thing.
That's how we understand things.
And the storytelling is the infusion of meaning
into a thing so that we can understand
what that thing is.
And you feel that, and this may be
just true, that with, with watching video creates

(01:09:06):
this alpha state and audio is different.
I believe audio is different.
I believe it too.
I just never thought of it in this
context.
I had neither until yesterday.
Audio is different because we're process, we are
assigning meaning as in real time.
We are participating in the process.

(01:09:28):
The troll room and us are, we're going
back and you know, and for the board,
the boardroom and the two of us are
going back and forth.
We're all participating in this thing together.
Even though they're not talking, they're listening and
they're, they are assigning this meaning as we,
as we go along.

(01:09:48):
The V, if we did a video podcast,
like they, this would not be the same
dynamic.
So the LLM stuff, the, the reason this
came up to me is because the LLM
stuff is worse than television because it doesn't
just, it doesn't just turn off this meaning

(01:10:10):
making process.
It hijacks it.
It turned, it took like that, that fake
podcast we listened to.
It, it jacks in directly to this meaning
making procedure in our, in, in us and
distorts it because it starts assigning meaning with

(01:10:30):
some random algorithm to the things that we,
that we're hearing.
And it, it, it pushes, it's like it
derails the entire process.
We, before you know it, you don't even
know what you're listening to anymore.
Um, that's, wow, that's deep.
That's good.
It's deep.
It's good.
Is Dave taking drugs?

(01:10:50):
Well, I'm eating cashews.
So on that, on that note, so I
was listening to Rogan with Mel Gibson yesterday.
I watched for a little bit, you know,
just, just to see what he looked like
and, you know, but then I, I find
that I have the YouTube app, so I
just turn it off.
And then when I walk, I switch over
to the podcast audio version, which by the

(01:11:11):
way, it's the interruptions in the middle of
the, of the conversation, the minerals.
Oh, it's not, it's not even mid-roll.
I got a pre-roll and then no,
it starts off with the podcast.
Then about a minute in you get an
ad and then it rolls for about four
minutes, another ad.
And then you don't get a whole thing.

(01:11:32):
Then the whole show goes until a post
-roll.
It's just like, wow, that's really super annoying.
Um, but so I was listening.
You've seen Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson's
movie.
Yeah.
A long time ago.
Now, do you, do you remember, what do
you remember about that movie?
Um, let me see.
I remember, well, okay.

(01:11:55):
I remember some things around the movie.
I remember, well, see the movie itself.
I remember some images from it around the
movie.
I know that it was very controversial.
Um, there's a lot of, because it was
so bloody and that kind of stuff.
But I remember in during the movie, I
remember the crown of thorns scene.

(01:12:16):
Do you remember, do you remember that all
the actors exclusively spoke Aramaic and it was
subtitled?
Yes, I do remember that.
And Gibson had this whole theory.
He said, cause he's doing, he's done a
couple of movies like this.
He's doing another one.
And he says, it's such a different experience.

(01:12:36):
Now for me, it's very comfortable to watch
television or a movie and read subtitles.
Cause I grew up with it in the
Netherlands.
Every English movie was subtitled.
So I'm very comfortable.
I think most people today are comfortable with
captions and young people, especially.
Yes.
And I noticed that I often find myself,

(01:12:57):
even listening to pod news daily, reading along
with the transcript.
And I think it sinks in better.
You know, this is, this is that, you
know, that research that has come out, I
think in multiple, multiple studies that says, if
you write, if you take notes with like
a pen, that it actually, you remember it

(01:13:18):
more.
This is why I journal every day on
my remarkable smart pad.
Is it, is the, the other movie he
did that way?
Wasn't it at that one about South, like
South American?
Yes.
Can you do a movie about South American
Indian tribes?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
All right.

(01:13:39):
That's interesting.
I never thought about that, but I do
remember that that was a big deal because
that was like, it was because Aramaic, I
think it's a dead language, right?
I haven't spoken it in a while.
Not at least since high school, right?
My buddy, Jimmy can, he has quite a

(01:14:00):
deep knowledge of it.
Oh, does he?
It may not be.
I may be completely wrong.
It may be a living language.
I just don't know.
I mean, you never hear it.
Well, it's, it's, you know, a lot of
the original language of the Bible was Greek
Aramaic.
You know, there's a lot of, a lot
of stuff.
Jesus spoke Aramaic.
Yeah, Jesus spoke Aramaic.
Yeah, exactly.
Wow.

(01:14:21):
Where do we go from here?
We've gone so deep.
Where do we go?
I don't know if I can pull us
out of this, out of this hole.
Oh, deep thought hole.
Oh, the deep thought.
I don't, let's see, we got, how much
time we got?
I did want to say one thing about
Noster.

(01:14:42):
I just resist it.
It's the dumbest marketing I've ever heard.
It's stupid.
You know, I'm censorship resistant.
I mean, Facebook is censorship resistant.
You know, I have a water resistant watch.
You know, it's like, it's, it's, it's, there's

(01:15:03):
a lot of things that Noster is.
Censorship resistant is just bad marketing.
I don't have a better suggestion right now,
but I just wanted to put that out
there.
The more I think about it, I'm like,
oh gosh, I hate this term.
Censorship resistant.
Everything can be, everything can be censored.
Resistant is a meaningless term.
Yes.
Thank you.
Exactly.
Do you want to thank some people considering

(01:15:24):
your time?
Oh, I did want to mention it's, although
I won't use it.
And as a specialized app, which you know,
I'm, I'm all, I'm all for specialized podcast
apps, always have been, will continue to be
true fans using secure RSS is definitely interesting

(01:15:47):
for what they're trying to do.
The secure RSS where you can like a
L4 or two.
Yeah.
The L4, you can purchase something.
If not something I'm interested in, but I
think it is a very interesting development.
I like it a lot.
And I'm interested to see what kind of
uptake it gets because it is in essence,
an open protocol type system.

(01:16:09):
I like all that.
I think people are selling themselves short.
It's, it's also not really what podcasting ever
was supposed to be.
Podcasting never had a business model in that
regard.
But I, I, I do want to just
say that's interesting, interesting stuff, interesting stuff for

(01:16:29):
sure.
Yeah.
I agree.
I like, I like that a lot, but
I like just having the ability to sell
content if you want to, like you said,
it's not, it's not my thing, but I
think, I think for pod, I think for
podcasting to be complete, it needs that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, people have subscriptions, people have private
RSS feeds.

(01:16:49):
I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting and
I, and I hope it's very successful for
them.
Again, not, not for me, but I hope
that's very successful for them.
Yeah, me too.
And with that, I'm going to give you
a couple of songs.
What?
No, no, no, no.
We don't have time for songs.
No, this, this new time that you have,
we don't have time for songs.
Oh, I'm sorry.

(01:17:10):
Yeah.
Well, you should be.
It's, it's, I feel bad.
It's blasphemy, man.
I can't believe it.
I've ruined the show.
You have ruined the format.
We got Lyceum coming in with a row
of ducks, 22, 22, writing.
That's Boobury.
I'll get to Boobury in a second.
Uh, writing a comment with a payment on
TrueFans.
Had a great conversation with Sam Sethi, Sethi

(01:17:32):
together with my co-host, Deborah Anderson.
New podcast in the making, Studio Fusion.
All the best from Martin.
Very nice.
Uh, there's Boobury, 17,776 sats.
Thank you very much.
I'm beyond, uh, Enceladus, E-N-C-E

(01:17:52):
-L-A-D-U-S.
I don't know.
For how things have come, for how things
have come together for, for Sunday.
Ah, visual artists, musicians, programmers, video editors, models
all coalesced together this Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday,
4 p.m. Central for The Embrace.
LiveIsLit.com.
Yes.
Is that, that's a satellite skirmish.

(01:18:14):
Elated.
Maybe he meant elated.
I think he meant elated.
Yes.
Which comes in, uh, right after the No
Agenda show.
Uh, Dee's Laughs, who you just heard boost
in 321.
ITM never missed a board meeting.
My fountain app too is acting funny.
Then I think about the saying, I'm surprised
any of this works at all, especially since
I'm in Canada, eh?

(01:18:36):
In Toronto, I believe.
3330 from Chad F.
Stephen B.
and Hazard 149.
We're on bowl after bowl, episode 361, talking
all things Nosker and podcasting 2.0. Yeah,
that's, uh, I have that on my list
to listen to.
Dreb Scott, 1234, boost, boost, boost.
Dreb never gets enough credit for all the
wonderful work he does on chapters for thousands

(01:18:57):
of podcasts.
It's much appreciated.
Salty Crayon, 808.
Howdy, Dave and Adam.
Threw an idea at Stephen B.
last week.
If nodes are the ledgers of the blockchain
and run the lightning network, could we build
our own nodes and back up the index
on a node?
And if so, would it sink to the
changes made at the core of the index
IDK?

(01:19:17):
I'm just an IT guy with a podcast.
What do I know in the pipe?
Wow, that's an interesting thought.
I've got like next week, I think I
want to start talking a little bit about
some index stuff because, um, I've got some

(01:19:38):
ideas about, um, if I've been trying to
get pod ping D, uh, that's Alex's pod
ping D, uh, popping, um, storage Damon.
Yeah.
So I want to go, I want to
start distributing that to different places.

(01:19:58):
Um, and I've been talking, I'm going back
and forth, uh, with, uh, with Alex, uh,
we're working out some issues with trying to
get the, um, he put object storage in,
he baked it into the, to the process,
to the, to the, um, to the, to
the Damon.
Yeah.
He baked it in.
And so I've got, I'm using Linode and

(01:20:21):
we're getting, we finally figured out it's giving
us some, an SSL certificate issue.
So, um, I know, I think I know
how to fix that now.
I think we worked, we worked out that
out this morning.
Okay.
And so I'm going to get that working
this week and start pushing, uh, pod pings
to object storage.
So it would hopefully make, make it easier

(01:20:43):
for people to, uh, to track that data,
you know, as in their own, however they
see fit.
I like it.
But yeah, so that's one, that's one thing,
uh, getting sort of back into index work
is, uh, is the pod ping D, uh,
rollout.

(01:21:04):
And then, uh, other people can, once we
have the bucket in place, that's going to
store the pod, the pod ping data, uh,
then other people can mirror that bucket if
they want to.
And so we can have that be distributed.
So there's not a single point of failure.
And then, um, but, but I have, which

(01:21:25):
is basically a way to build the index
or build an index.
Uh, huh.
Yeah.
You could re you could replay that to
find feeds and do it.
Yeah.
You, you could do a lot of stuff
with that to just sort of like bootstrap
a new index.
Nice.
Uh, but, but then, um, you know, to,

(01:21:47):
to, to a degree, uh, but then what
were you gonna say?
No, no, go ahead.
I'm just laughing at the scale of it.
Yeah.
To a degree.
Oh yeah.
But then there's also, I've had this idea
for a long time that I want to
begin actually working on now.

(01:22:08):
And that is, uh, changing the way that
the index, uh, aggregator does his polling.
Yeah, I know you have.
And I'm finally, I'm, I'm ready.
I think I'm ready to pull the trigger
on fleshing this out and getting this to
work, but as a, and I'll talk about
this next week, but as an adjunct to
that, I want to, this is, that would

(01:22:29):
be a good time to figure out how
we get other people on board to support,
to, to, I think people want to participate
in hosting fragments of the index or I
don't know how to say it.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, of course.
I certainly do.
I'd love it.
Give me a start nine app, baby.

(01:22:49):
The old, the only, the only issue is
whenever you, whenever you charge something and begin
to host parts of things in other areas
is those, those other pieces have to be
online.
If you say that you're going to host
something and then you're, you know, you're, you're
down 50% of the time, that doesn't
work.

(01:23:09):
That's no good.
So decentralizing is a, it's not only complicated,
but it also requires you to be like
legit and committed.
So we have to talk through all this.
Anyway, start talk.
Then we'll start talking that next week.
22,223 sats from chimp.
No note, but we appreciate it.
22, 22 from Oystein Berger, hyperlocal baby.

(01:23:32):
So what he says, and uh, is always
seeing going to do a show after this?
He usually pops on after we're done.
Uh, 21, 21 from Macintosh.
He says, CSB, thanks for the kind words
about Satoshi's plebs last week.
Appreciate it.
Go podcasting.
1, 2, 3, 4 from Dreb Scott, pre
-show boost.
And I think that is all we have.

(01:23:54):
Oh, uh, I don't see a delimiter.
I think comic strip blogger, do you have
a problem with his, with his app?
I think I saw a note about that
somewhere.
So I don't, I don't have a, I
don't have a boost from him, but I
believe that's the delimiter for me.
And, uh, in our value for value efforts
to keep everything running on the index, Dave

(01:24:14):
was going to give us the rest of
the support.
Uh, no, no single, uh, one-off PayPal's
this week, but we did have some monthlies.
We've got Podverse.
That's Mitch and Creon, 50 bucks.
Nice.
Thank you.
Basil Philip, $25 and Mitch Downey, $10.
Thank you, Mitch.
And, uh, Christopher Harabaric, $10.

(01:24:37):
Nice.
Thank you all very much.
Appreciate that.
Oh, I did a rip instead of a
crumple.
Yeah.
Could you please just go back and crumple
that?
There you go.
Oh yes.
That sounds good.
The curry one picks up the crumple just
fine.
Oh, nice.
Uh, let's see.
Tone, uh, Tone Wrecker gave us 2025 stats.
Oh, there you go.
I see what you did there.
Through fountain.
He says, great to kick off the new

(01:24:58):
year with a new episode to catch up
with.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Randy Black, triple seven.
We got it.
Um, let's see.
Boobury to see Boobury through fountain.
He says fast approaching January 12th.
Satellite skirmish.
Polar embrace.
Live after no agenda.
We have both returning and familiar faces joining
this edition.

(01:25:18):
What I'm most excited for.
We have new boost alerts featuring the artwork
from the young Bolets.
I've never put it.
I've never put children into a value split,
but I'm thrilled to check it out at
live is lit.com.
Glad you liked the sign.
Just need to get it to get it
to flash on a pod ping update.
Well, maybe you can do that with the
new pod ping D or as someone said,

(01:25:40):
the big D.
Oh, we'll just call it the big D
the big, the big, let's please not call
it the big day.
Okay.
Pod ping D got it.
Don't go to the big d.com.
Uh, Alex says Dave sound is better with
the changes you made earlier.
Adam.
Oh, okay.
And what if I told you, what if

(01:26:01):
I told you I made no changes and
that's just in your mind, the theater of
the mind.
That's right.
I'm turning this button.
How does it sound now?
I do this all about now.
I do this with Tina with her headphones.
She's like, I can't hear you.
And I'll just touch the button.
I don't do anything.
So how about now?
Yes.
Perfect.
Okay.
Don't touch it again.
It's you nailed it.

(01:26:21):
He's nailed it.
Cole McCormick, satchel of Richards through fountain.
He says, I am burned out with listening
to Rogan.
I personally want more interviews on my podcast,
but I want the guests to be interesting
and not boring.
Solo episodes are still interesting.
Since we don't have a comic strip blogger,
I'm just having to put more, more emotion
into every boost.

(01:26:42):
Like I miss him.
I mean, this is, this is a harsh,
harsh reality.
I miss comics or blogger.
I miss his, uh, his boost.
It's a, it's a cold, desolate winter.
Gene, like Gene Everett, he sent us 33,
33 sats, um, through fountain.
He says, boost, boost, boost, anonymous 22, 22

(01:27:08):
sats through podverse.
He says, cool animated background on the live
stream artwork.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think that was from the last show.
I think that was from that, that, that
was a delimiter from the last show.
Alive.
Okay.
I remember the weirdest things.
Yep.
And so I think that's it.
That's all we got.
Wow.
You have two and a half minutes left.
What are we going to do?
This is crazy.
I show 201.

(01:27:30):
Oh yeah.
Well, yeah, but we have one hour and
27 minutes on the podcast.
I mean, were you going to short change
us?
Uh, well, yeah, yeah.
The answer is yeah.
The, uh, you know, yeah, let, let, let
me, I can, I can fill two minutes.

(01:27:51):
Okay.
You know what, you know what, let me
just talk about this since we're talking about
like, uh, streaming and radio and all this
kind of stuff.
Motor trend is a, is a subscription service
that I used to subscribe that I subscribed
to for years.
They had a bunch of car shows on
there that I liked.
Is that television or is that a magazine?

(01:28:13):
It was a magazine.
And then they went, became a television network.
Right.
That's what I remember.
Uh, and so then they had a bunch
of cool car shows on there.
Roadkill was their most famous car show.
It was a great show where, uh, these,
a couple of dudes go and they just
like resurrect a car out of the, out
of the junkyard.
Out of dust.

(01:28:34):
They literally would go into a junkyard, grab
a car, get it running in a couple
of hours, get the brakes working and then
go off on like a 500 mile road
trip.
And they're breaking, they're breaking down every couple
of hours, you know?
Yeah.
It's great fun.
And then, uh, so I subscribed to it
and it was like four 99, like this

(01:28:54):
is maybe like six years ago, it was
four 99 a month and I watched it
all the time.
And then they raised the price to five
99.
I'm like, okay, that's fine.
Whatever.
Then discovery bought them.
Then they moved, they had their own app,
which was great on the Roku.
They got rid of the app, moved all

(01:29:14):
the shows into the discovery plus app, which
sucks.
No.
And then I just got an email last
week saying that they're canceling all the motor
trend shows except for, uh, about four or
five that are just kind of crap, like
that non-specific car review type shows.

(01:29:35):
And they're raising the price from five 99
to nine 99.
And it's going to have ads.
I love the, and it's going to have
ads part.
Everything is now, and it has ads like
it's a feature.
Uh-huh.
The, um, now if, if they had continued,
what do you think you would have given
them value for value to maintain even just

(01:29:57):
that one show that you like the, the,
the dust to driving?
What would you think the roadkill show?
Yeah.
What do you think you would have given
them value for value on a monthly basis?
Just watching the show a couple of times.
If they had never told me the price
and said, give me what you want, just
like as a monthly subscription, I would have
given them, I don't know, 15, 20 bucks

(01:30:18):
a month.
And my point is made everybody exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
So.
Cause you're like, you know, cause you don't,
if you, if nobody tells you what the
price is, then you have to decide for
yourself.
That's right.
You got to dig deep inside your heart.

(01:30:39):
That's right.
That's right.
It's not tipping people.
It's not tipping two minutes, baby.
All right, everybody.
That's it for podcasting 2.0 brother.
Dave, have yourself a great weekend.
You too, man.
And, um, board room.
Have a great weekend.
We'll be back next Friday.

(01:31:10):
You have been listening to podcasting 2.0
visit podcast index.org for more information.
Man, I was there, bro.
Yeah.

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