Episode 211: Podcast Plumbing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for February 21st, 2025, episode
211, Podcast Plumbing.
Oh yeah, it's Friday again, it's 27 degrees
on Main Street in Fredericksburg.
But it's time for the only board meeting
that has an RSS feed.
That's right, our boardroom's got that.

(00:21):
It is Podcasting 2.0, everything happening with
podcasting, what has been, what is now, and
what will forever be.
I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of
the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the
man who comes to the party whether he's
sick or not, say hello to my friend
on the other end, the one, the only,
Mr. Dave Jones.
I'm telling you, I did that, I hit

(00:43):
the post right when you, right when you
finished me up.
Right when I finished you off.
Right when I finished, I hit the post.
It's all right, I'd forgotten to, I forgot
to hit the live, the lit tag too,
so.
Oh, that's all right.
That signal has been sent, that signal has

(01:04):
been sent.
The pong has been pinged, that's right.
Hey Dave, how you doing?
You don't sound so hot today, you sound
a little under the weather as we say.
Yeah, I'm sick.
It went through my daughter and my wife
and that was like maybe four or five
days ago, and then I was like, oh

(01:26):
man, maybe I escaped, and then it was
like, oh no, I woke up this morning,
I'm like, no.
What is it, throat, cough, is that all
the typical symptoms?
Not really cough, it's just, yeah, it's just
throat and fatigue, just feel like you've been
like, you know, run over.
I'm sorry.

(01:47):
You want to, you just want to quit
and we'll do it next week?
Yeah, I'll see you.
Okay, bye.
Yeah, take care.
I know you better than that, Dave Jones.
No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna muscle
through, I'm gonna, I'm gonna push my body
beyond its normal limits to get to, to
get a board meeting, which seems so important.

(02:11):
It is important.
You hear, did you, did you see the
big news that I revealed?
The big names that you revealed?
No, the big news that I revealed, like,
literally, like, right before I connected to the
stream.
No, no, did you release this on podcastindex
.social, this big news?
I did, yes.
What did you release?

(02:34):
Apple's official document, Apple has now adopted the
podcast TXT tag.
How about that?
Yes, their official documentation now references, uh, so
here, so let me give the, the background
here.
Um, that's good.

(02:54):
Yeah.
So let me get the background that, so
what, I guess it's current, I guess it's
concurrent with them releasing, uh, it was iOS
18.3, something like that.
Yeah.
So it was 18, I don't know, 18
.4 beta.
I don't know what it is, but, um,

(03:15):
sorry, I'm sorry, Nathan.
Did I mess it up again?
Dave's not here today, people.
Dave's not fully here.
Don't worry about it.
What, what did, what did I do?
I miss, okay.
I mess up the episodes.fm link to
our show every single week.
How hard can it be?
It's not that hard.

(03:39):
How do I screw this up?
It's just some numbers.
Okay.
All right.
Let me wait.
I'm going to fix this.
I'm going to, I'm going to delete and
redraft.
Okay.
Oh, that's the, that's the beauty of Mastodon
delete and redraft.
I have a blue check Mark on X
and I get to edit for like, I
think 30 minutes after posting it, say it

(03:59):
saved me a lot.
Uh, okay.
All right.
I just did, did that one.
I got to fix Twitter X, whatever you
call it.
Upgrade.
No screw it.
It'll just have to be wrong.
How come co-pilot can't do this already?
Okay.
Yeah, seriously.
Okay.

(04:20):
Well, I'm going to, okay.
I'm going to delete that post and I'm
going to delete, I'm going to do this
by the way is riveting, riveting podcasting, ladies
and gentlemen.
But see, I teased the, the big thing
at the beginning, so they're going to stick
around.
Oh, okay.
Well they, see, see.
All right.
So Apple added the TXT tag and did

(04:42):
they alert you of this or did you
just stumble upon it?
Uh, no, Ted emailed me this morning and
said that, uh, he gave me the details.
Here's how it went.
Hey, that failed project of yours.
We added another one of your failed tags.
It's because we, he said, what is his

(05:03):
exact words in the email were we were
going to, we were going to put in
the documentation, fail, colon TXT.
But we decided to not be snarky and
podcast.
No, no, he didn't say that.
I'm making, but, but so they have a
new way to claim shows in their directory.

(05:27):
Ah, and so they have a whole new
process for submitting and by using the TXT
tag.
Uh, well you can see their, their submission
process, um, is outlined.
Let me see if I can post this
in.
There's a documentation is updated here.
Uh, here's the, okay.

(05:48):
This is how to claim your show.
I'm going to post this into the boardroom.
Uh, how do I do that?
Paste.
Yeah.
And so then this is how to, um,
claim your show, but they've got another document
document on how to, on how to add
to their directory.
Okay.
So that was a, you know, that was
things we've been throwing that out there for
a while is how do you even get

(06:08):
your show into Apple's directory?
And if you don't have an Apple podcast
account, Apple podcast connect account, and then we
were like, well, there may be, there's some
way to do it.
Um, because we don't have one in our
show got in there.
And so we just been theorizing that, that,

(06:31):
uh, there was some, that either somebody internal
to Apple, maybe Ted or somebody else just
stuck it in there or somebody with an
Apple podcast connect account just did it right.
Just went ahead and did it.
Yeah.
That's probably what happened somewhere.
Right.
And so, um, they have now they have
this, they have an official submission process now.

(06:55):
And so, and now, so since they have
this, the, a submission process where anybody can
submit, then they have a, excuse me, not
as I'm sorry, that's correct.
That's incorrect.
It is not anybody.
It is hosting companies, hosting company partners.
So hosting partners of which there is a
list of them can submit, um, directly to

(07:17):
Apple's directory with or without an, they don't
need an account.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh, so now then after the fact you
can go as the owner of that podcast
and claim your podcast and say, this is
mine in the Apple podcast connect.
If you choose to go get an account
and then, um, so that claiming process is

(07:42):
now where they recommend that you use the
podcast TXT record to put your claim claiming
token in there.
So they're going to generate a token in
Apple podcast connect.
You're going to go into your hosting provider
and in the verification field, uh, you're going
to put in that and, and save the

(08:04):
tag, save it, save your code in there,
your token in there.
And for 24 hours you, uh, Apple will
scan your feed and look for that token
in the podcast TXT, uh, podcast TXT tag.
And if it sees it, it'll, you're verified.
You're done.
Ah, perfect.
Well, this is good.

(08:24):
Now everyone can finally use that as a
system because Apple's done it and everyone will,
uh, glom on.
Thank you very much, Apple.
Yeah.
Good job.
Better than Spotify.
And this idea originated with them because Ted
mentioned, yeah, he mentioned to us, it took

(08:46):
two years for them to get this in,
but okay.
It's that's just, that's their process.
It's okay.
I get it.
That's businesses sometimes move slow.
Well, and, and that's really kind of, I'm
sure we're going to talk a lot about
that today is, is this, this is the
natural order of things.
Yes.
This is how stuff happens in the real
world.
Yeah.
Um, but so this, this is, they had,

(09:11):
they had just to finish the discussion about
the podcast TXT tag.
It's in there.
Uh, it's in their documentation.
Um, along with, so they have, they have
two options where you can verify the iTunes
colon Apple podcast verify tag or the podcast
TXT purpose equals Apple podcast verify tag.

(09:35):
Oh, so they, they added their own little
right shimmy in there.
Right.
So it's either, it's either or because some,
some hosting companies are, have already implemented.
Actually there's a decent amount of companies that
have already implemented the TXT record.
Yeah.
And so your purpose, including bus sprout, right?

(09:56):
Bus sprout uses it.
Don't think they, I thought they did.
I think they do.
Trano transistor does.
I think rss.com does.
I'm not sure about blueberry.
Oh, I'm sure Todd has it implemented.
Yeah, he does.
Hopefully they'll, they'll ping us in all and
everybody they'll tell, tell us who, which ones
have done it.

(10:18):
Um, but the, the purpose, uh, tag, excuse
me, the purpose attribute, uh, is going to
be custom for, for them.
And that fits the, that fits the model
of this, uh, fits the model of this
tag.
The reason we put the purpose in there
was so that you could have fine grain

(10:41):
control over, okay.
Cause the TXT record, what you don't want
the TXT record to do is become a
general purpose utility that replaces a real tag.
Yeah.
That just jam some crap in there.
Like here's my value block.
Yeah.
Right.
Cause that's what happened.

(11:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Cause that's what happened to the, to DNS.
Yep.
You know, became this, this, like the TXT
record in DNS is a garbage dump.
I've used it as such for all kinds
of groovy things like verifying my blue sky
account.
Yes.
Verifying domains, um, SPF records for mark.

(11:26):
I mean like it's, there's all kinds of
crap in there.
And so we don't want that to happen
to this thing.
So you put the purpose in there and
in the purpose is meant to be a
short lived or very niche thing.
Right.
Uh, because like in DNS world, there should

(11:47):
have been an SPF record.
Oh, clearly.
You know, and in this, in, in this
thing, you know, there should be a particular
type of record for a thing that's going
to be a longterm deal.
It's kind of interesting.
The analog between, uh, the podcast, uh, spec
and the namespace and DNS, look how long
it takes for everybody to agree and come

(12:09):
to terms on adding something to DNS.
It's so it's almost impossible.
We still don't have DNS sec.
No.
I mean, it's still not widely used.
No.
I mean, I mean, like, do we need
to talk about IPV six?
No, I really don't want to.
We can.
No, no, no.
So anyway, this a win, a win from

(12:35):
the grave of the dead podcast, uh, podcasting
2.0 project.
All right.
Hold on.
I'm gonna let these people in.
Hold on a second.
All right.
Come on.
The band is here.

(12:57):
Hey, I did that live and unrehearsed.
I want you to know I literally ripped
it from, I hit the YouTube, uh, this
music's on YouTube and I hit it while
I was talking.
Yeah.
Sight unseen.
It's almost like you're a pro.

(13:19):
Yeah.
That was, uh, I'll have to admit that
was somewhat talent and a lot of luck,
but that's professional.
That's how you can dethrone people like Joe
Rogan.
All right.
Rip and run.
I figured it was time for a state
of the union.

(13:39):
Oh, and you wrapped it up on time.
What can I say?
What can I say?
Um, a lot of talk in my favorite
podcasts, uh, podcasts about podcasts, uh, that would
be the new media show on power.
Can I preface this?
Sure.
I would like to, to say for the
record, since this is the state of the
union, I would like to say that I

(14:02):
have not listened or read any of this
stuff.
Oh, well, this is how I like you
the best.
And I did this on purpose.
You know, you know how I am.
Um, I heard new media show.
I heard Rob say, we're going to talk
about podcasting 2.0. And then he said,
um, he asked this question.

(14:23):
He said, has it lived up?
We're going to, we're going to, we're going
to talk about whether it's lived up to
expectations.
And I immediately stopped balls.
I'm not listening to this.
I figured you would either not listen or
you would have 50 clips.
And so when I didn't see clips like
Dave hasn't listened and I love it.
Yep.
Yep.
Um, so just to preface for those, you

(14:43):
don't know, um, an episode of the in
and around podcasting podcast had the, uh, title
is podcasting 2.0, a failure.
And, uh, of course I listened to the
episode.
It was recommended by James Criddle.
And he said, it's a good discussion.
Um, and I listened to the discussion that,
um, James and Sam had on the podcast

(15:06):
weekly review.
And I also listened to, um, the new
media show and, um, now listening to the
in and around podcasting episode, what they didn't
really define is what success means.
I did hear a lot, but I had
heard a lot of stuff about the podcasting

(15:26):
industry, uh, tipping listeners are stupid.
They just want to hit play the movement.
All of these things to me say we,
that's why I said we need a state
of the union to just briefly go over
the history of what we're doing here.
First of all, podcasting 2.0 is the
name of this podcast.

(15:46):
It was never set out as a movement.
It was never, never set out as a
project.
It was never set out as anything other
than the name of this podcast.
And it was, it was created.
It was two, two things.
It was the name of this podcast and
to, to really piss Dave Wanner off.
Those were the two intentions.

(16:07):
Well, that was your input.
And we appreciate that accomplished, um, just to
reiterate.
Uh, I called Dave over five years ago
and said, as I have done throughout now,
the past 15 years, said, Dave, we got
to do something.
Uh, what do you think?
And Dave went, okay.
And that was pretty much it.

(16:27):
I think every single time I've come up
with an idea, you've said, okay, let's go
build it.
And we've built many interesting things, but I
want it to fail in reality, not fail
on the phone.
So, um, and, uh, and I still use,
uh, our products, uh, and they are, and
they are rock solid.
Uh, but the, so I, I proposed building

(16:48):
a, an alternative index of podcast feeds and
that we would do this mainly.
And that this was the impetus behind it
is, uh, Apple started screwing around with, uh,
entries in their, uh, in their index, which
they may in hindsight may actually regret, but
there was this, you know, overnight move by

(17:09):
Apple and Facebook and Twitter at the time,
uh, to remove certain feeds and to remove
de-platform basically.
Um, and there was also some odd things
with Apple news that it didn't, the API
didn't really return the proper RSS feed.
So there was, it was wonky enough that

(17:30):
I said, you know, we can't really have
a commercial partner managing the entire world of
podcasting.
And when you looked at it objectively, uh,
Apple's, Apple's iTunes at the time had become
the default, uh, on-ramp into podcasting, because
if you were in the Apple index, then

(17:50):
you were in Overcast and you were in
any other alternative, uh, podcast app.
The second thing, which was, which we put
in from the get-go was the value
tag, which of course gave us the reason
to create the namespace.
And I believe we also put in chapters
quickly at that point because there was another,

(18:11):
another, uh, namespace item floating out there.
I think I, and you'll have to correct
me on that, but the, the main reason
for the value tag was this new thing
called the lightning network.
And I saw it as a, really for
myself as a possible alternative, should anyone be
de-platformed from any of the financial payment

(18:34):
systems, most notably PayPal, which my entire, uh,
mortgage is based on.
Without PayPal, if that goes away, and by
the way, just to give you an example,
when the PayPal, PayPalpocalypse happened, when, I can't
remember why it was, but people got really
mad at PayPal and they closed their accounts.
It hurt financially.

(18:55):
It hurt no agenda quite significantly because a
lot...
That was because, that was because PayPal said,
changed their terms and said that if they
found that you had donated to some, to
certain things, they were going to like fine
you.
Right, right, right.
That's right.
Um, and a lot of people, um, had
recurring donations, which in no agenda world, value

(19:15):
for value is any amount, any frequency.
So anything from $4 a month to, you
know, some people did $5 an episode, et
cetera.
And a lot of those went away.
Um, so that created the namespace and it
was miraculous to see that as, I think
that was kind of the beauty of the
project was setting up podcastindex.social. You know,

(19:38):
Mastodon was kind of an up and coming
thing.
I had a little bit of experience under
my belt.
And so I set that up and people
came and people had all kinds of ideas.
And as we were talking on this podcast,
and this podcast was really meant to replicate
the original days of podcasting of daily source
code, where if you talk about it and

(19:59):
you talk about the, what the developers are
doing and the development they're doing, you have
this kind of circular motion and there's feedback
and you, and we've had many of the
developers on the podcast in the boardroom talking
about, you know, what, what we're doing basically.
Um, and it was also to continuously remind
people that the podcast index is an open

(20:21):
source project and it is a value for
value project.
And if only if people find value in
using it with the API that we've made
available for free, uh, at no charge, um,
if only if people would support it, would
it continue to exist?
And you and I had that agreement as
well.
And it's like, that's, that's just how we're
going to do it.

(20:41):
And remind me, I'd like to answer, um,
uh, Todd and Rob's question about the finances
of the index later on.
So that's noted.
So, so that is, is really what it
is.
And the namespace kind of took on a
life of its own and we focused on
the namespace and lo and behold, there were

(21:03):
existing apps and, but a lot of new
energy and excitement came with new app developers.
Uh, some have come, some have gone and
multiple things have happened from the, and, and
in a way, because we never really did
any marketing, um, the name podcasting 2.0,

(21:24):
2.0 took on a life of its
own and it became kind of a moniker
for, wow.
There's Dreb Scott.
We do have, he, he fired off his
own big baller with a one, two, three,
four, five, six Satoshi boost.
Whoa.
Then he says, I can drip.

(21:44):
I find value in this project.
Go podcasting.
Thank you very much, Dreb.
This is, there you go.
This is one of the things that we've
created, including the lit tag and all of
these wonderful, fabulous things that have come out
of, of this project, but it kind of
became a moniker and as humans do, and
I'm sure that we've been just as guilty

(22:04):
of it.
It's like, Hey, it's podcasting 2.0 and
the, you know, to the absolute chagrin of
Dave Weiner, as you pointed out, but I
think that's a good term.
Yes.
I believe from year one, certainly I have
always said that I'm looking for something new
for new applications.
Um, not just the same old inbox model

(22:27):
that we've become accustomed to, uh, in our
daily lives and our daily podcast lives.
And, uh, who was, um, he's, he, he
came and went, who was the guy?
Rolfi.
Was it Rolfi?
Rolfi?
Yeah.
Rolfi would from time to time code something
up.
There was like, what am I looking at?
And boxes would be jumping around and all

(22:49):
kinds of crazy stuff would be happening.
And, um, and it's, it was always fun
and interesting to watch.
Um, and I've also in more recent history
said quite clearly the way forward, I believe
is more looking at specific listener groups.
And my example was the Rachel Maddow app

(23:10):
now.
Uh, so I define, and, and, and one
little side note, uh, I think one or
on the, on the last episode of the
board meeting, you said you, you highlighted how
important indexes are and then also how complicated
it can be.
And also what the weakness is.
And we, we talked a lot about decentralization

(23:32):
of the index, which is our ultimate goal.
And here is an API which you can
use for literally anything you can dream up.
But what has been the main focus has
been kind of a traditional podcast app.
So when I look at successes, I look
at the fountain app and I say, we

(23:55):
can die right now.
We have made a trim.
This has been a tremendous success where an
app came out of nowhere, rose from the
ashes and built an entire ecosystem around a
community of people.
And that community of people has mainly been
people interested in Bitcoin, users of Bitcoin, users

(24:17):
of the lightning network, uh, and Nostr.
And I have no insight into the finances,
but they actually raise money based upon what
they were doing.
And it appears to me, just looking at
the 1% that we get, uh, from,
uh, from fountain.
And by the way, if you look at
the V4V stats, there's a lot of apps
that we don't get any split from.

(24:38):
A lot of them look up, do direct
feed lookups like podcast guru.
So, you know, most of my, even my
boosts, et cetera, don't even, there's no split
that goes off to the index.
So it's probably, uh, significantly higher than what
most people are seeing in the statistics, but
here is this beautiful resource with a well

(24:59):
-documented API.
Thank you to everyone who's been involved in
that, that can be used for many different
things.
Fountain to me is a mind boggling success.
Even though I, I even pushed back in
the beginning thinking that, uh, posting the boost,
the booster grams would, would detract from value
for value.
I think I've admitted I was wrong about
that several times.

(25:20):
Uh, it is, it is a full on
beautiful ecosystem for a group that is not
small.
It's not huge, but it's not insignificant.
Then we have an app like Ellen beats,
very specific focus completely on music shows and
on music.
And I think it serves that growing small,

(25:42):
but growing community extremely well.
Um, we've seen, we've seen this with, um,
uh, with many of the live shows we've
seen it, uh, with the booster Graham ball
live.
Just it's, it's a V to me, a
very, very successful project that is just getting
started.
True fans.
I believe that when true fans becomes native

(26:05):
app, true fans will find it's it's place.
And the name already says it.
I think it will be a place that
people who want to be rabid fans, not
just for podcasts, but for music as well.
We'll go to interact, to exchange, to buy
merch, to buy tickets.

(26:26):
Sam has a vision and I believe that
is going to come out.
And that is all thanks to the podcast
index.
I think that is a huge success.
Hosting companies are very active.
In fact, it's mainly the hosting companies who,
uh, we can count on larger funding for
the index, but you know, that's not to

(26:46):
say that, you know, every single Satoshi counts.
Um, and, and, you know, you get a
one, two, three, four, five, six from Dreb
Scott that takes care of a couple of
servers on a monthly basis.
So that's fantastic.
I call that a big success.
Now what this is has never, I think
the, the concept of the, all of the,

(27:10):
you know, the most important tags are the
top 10 tags and all the podcast apps
have to have, I think that is, uh,
archaic thinking that is probably not going to
happen.
We live in a very decentralized world right
now.
Um, it's not about in my mind, in
my opinion, it's not that YouTube is all

(27:32):
about video.
It's just a place that's easy for people
to get it where they already are.
There's a good search and they can find
it.
And so the users aren't really concerned about
an RSS feed, but if they, if it's
an audio only podcast, I'm pretty sure that
they're going to find that somewhere else.
Um, so just on a quick side note

(27:55):
of, you know, cause Sam was saying, well,
Adam should be the, should be the leader.
And she'd be going out and doing four
keynotes a year.
Just as a side note, the podcast industrial
complex, the industry is not interested in Adam
doing a keynote.
They don't, they don't care.
They don't, they don't really care about anything

(28:16):
we have to say.
That keynote is a $50,000 sponsor opportunity.
They're not going to put me on a
keynote, see podcast movement.
Now, I think three years ago, they threw
us in a back room during lunch hour
and put up a little easel with a
sign that says, so it was really hard

(28:36):
to spell.
I have never been offered a key.
And please don't offer me keynotes because I'm
not going to do it.
There is no interest in me as a
keynote, even though, Oh yes.
He called inventor of park.
No, there was never any interest from podcast
movement.
They're not interested.
They're interested in money, which is fine.
I have known this.

(28:56):
I've known this about the very first podcast
conference.
I'll just reiterate the story.
They called me up.
We had VC funding and they said, Hey,
we're going to do this first contrast.
It used to be called the new media
expo.
And now it's the podcasting conference.
I'm a little fuzzy on the history of
it.
And I said, and would you do a
keynote?
I said, I really don't like it, but

(29:16):
okay, I'll do it.
Great.
Are you going to be a silver or
gold sponsor?
I said, what do you mean?
Well, you have to sponsor, you have to
sponsor the industry.
I'm like, no, I don't know this.
We're putting this into podcasters, hands into development.
I'm not going to give that to your
conference.
That's your business.
And, and I subsequently probably pissed off everybody
in the, in the conference industry, but I

(29:38):
didn't feel that was, um, I didn't feel
that was appropriate.
So we'll just, just look at the, look
at the two years in a row.
Mark Cuban was, was keynoting podcast movement for
the fireside chat app, which doesn't even exist

(29:58):
anymore.
It is not about, it's not about all
that.
It's a purely, the keynoting stuff is purely
a money play.
If you, it doesn't matter if your app
even exists, or if anyone cares, but a
lot of people cared about it, but people,
Oh, this is the future.
Okay.
So as I said, the world is decentralizing.

(30:22):
You're seeing Spotify satisfying its user base with
certain, uh, with certain extra widgets.
You're seeing YouTube trying to basically capture the,
uh, the podcasting world and, you know, they're
getting the video podcasters.
That's fine.
Um, but when you look at, I mean,

(30:44):
so I, I think we naturally just you
and I, Dave, we just kind of, you
know, we, we glom, we, we understand what
the index is and what you can do
with an API.
And so when the opportunity came, so I'm
going to, I think we should talk a
little bit about Godcaster since we've officially announced
it, um, six, eight, nine months ago, maybe,

(31:08):
um, uh, Gordon, uh, a guy who had
a, who had this basic podcast player and
was, um, uh, working with faith-based radio
stations to put podcasting into their web pages.
He approached me and he said, Hey, um,
I really need to figure out what to

(31:29):
do with this thing.
Um, I'm extremely interested in all the extra
features.
I'm interested in what the podcast index can
do.
And I, and I basically looked at him
as a, as an app developer and app
developer who wanted to tie in.
And so I, you know, as with any
app developer, anyone interested, I took my time
and I explained to him what it was
and I walked him through all the pieces

(31:51):
and a rather long story short after about
six months.
Um, we decided to, uh, uh, to join
his company.
We're equal partners with Dave to create the
Godcaster and Godcaster incorporates a whole bunch of
things that, um, pretty much all of the,

(32:14):
uh, the features come from the podcast index.
And it was very interesting to see and
to hear how James reported on it.
Um, because he completely missed, missed what it
really does.
That's not his fault, by the way, it's
not his fault.
Um, and I'll just explain what it is.
And so just know that this is a
completely different animal from any traditional podcast app,

(32:37):
but it uses the podcast index and it
uses some very important, uh, namespace features.
So do you mind if I just give
the vision for a second here, just so
people understand what we're talking about and then
you can tell us how it works.
Because I think I want to expand everybody's
mind instead of an inbox model of a

(32:58):
podcast app and that that's what we all
have to have.
Because if you look at radio stations and
I think in the United States, there's three,
three, maybe 4,000, uh, religious broadcasters, faith
-based radio stations, and they all understand a
couple of things.
They understand value for value because many of

(33:19):
them are donation-based.
Many of them, uh, run nationally syndicated programming
that buys their airtime.
So they understand the, the value, the basic
value for value model.
They also understand that they are on a
one-way ticket into heaven as that's where
all their listeners are going with a 74
-year-old average age.

(33:40):
And they're kind of freaking out, like, what
am I going to do?
Because what is all of radio done around
the globe almost, they have consolidated transmitters, consolidated
radio stations.
They have removed most of their local programming.
Um, except maybe you have Elvis, just an
example, Z100 New York, Elvis Duran.

(34:01):
Um, he was the New York morning guy.
Now he's the morning guy in multiple markets.
They fire off local, local jingles, but he's
not really talking about, you know, what's going
on with, um, with the New York congestion
fee.
He's not really talking.
He's only doing national type news.
Part of the reason that local programming has

(34:23):
died off is that Facebook has taken up
all of the local advertising.
If you want to advertise your small business,
you're going to go to Facebook.
That's where you're going to get most of
your, most, that's where you get the most,
the biggest bang for your buck.
Newspapers are almost non-existent.
Uh, they've all kind of dried up.
So really, if you look at a town
like Fredericksburg, which is an interesting example where

(34:46):
I live, there's a little under 12,000
people who live here, but on a yearly
basis, 2 million people come through here, um,
to visit because we're a tourist attraction.
But we have a Facebook rants and rage
page, and that's where people go and moan
and groan at each other about what's broken
and what's not working.

(35:07):
So the idea that I had is looking
at these radio stations, what does every single
one of them have?
They all have a live stream and they
stick this live stream on their webpage, listen
live.
And increasingly more of them have an app
and they're asking people to download their app.
And the app really doesn't have much more.

(35:28):
They may have a podcast feed or two
in there, but they have no way to
manage or to really program that lineup of
on-demand programming, most of which is national,
some of which is local, but really the
vision here is you give an interface the
radio stations can use as a player on

(35:49):
their page or in their app, which we've
made available and a whole backend that allows
you to schedule your live streams, to put
in your on-demand programming, to also track
everything that people are doing there.
It's very unique.
It's very unique that a station can see,
okay, someone is listening to the Tony Evans

(36:13):
podcast, and I can see that they listened
right after they were listening to the live
stream, heard a promo for it and bopped
over into the app or in the player
and started playing that.
We use the funding tag also tracked, and
this is one of the biggest problems they've
had is attribution.
So if someone is listening to a nationally

(36:36):
syndicated program on KHCB in Houston, and they
donate to that program, how do we know
that that came from KHCB?
Well, with the funding tag, which we also
all have in the statistical analysis program, we
can say, hey, someone was listening on your
KHCB app.
They hit the funding tag and we tell

(36:57):
both parties.
So KHCB knows, but Tony Evans also knows.
So we built this entire, I'd call it
a platform really, that enables people who are
programmers to now use the local programming that
they normally wouldn't put on the air for
multiple reasons, which are local podcasts.

(37:19):
Some of them have gone, my true vision
involves your local church, which are content factories.
They're creating all kinds of content all the
time.
And to start transitioning their listener base to
using this web player, using the universal app,
which is a PWA, or using their app,
which we have an API so they can

(37:40):
integrate that into their app.
And we now have, did Gordon say like
235 stations who are using this now?
I don't remember the number.
It's over 200.
And I'm going to the National Religious Broadcasters
Conference next week, and I'm doing a keynote,

(38:01):
but I'm not going to be selling in
the keynote, of course.
By the way, they asked me to do
a keynote.
How nice is that?
And I'm also going to be talking about
the future of podcasting in a separate session,
which will be pretty much exclusively 2.0.
But we are solving some really big problems
for a group that is a niche group,
but has extremely large audiences attached to it.

(38:24):
And no one has focused on that.
And so that is, to me, an excellent
example of the future of podcasting.
We're no different than Fountain, except our ultimate
customers, well, our customers are radio stations and
churches, but our customers may not be interested

(38:45):
in Nasr.
They may not be interested in value for
value.
By the way, I think they ultimately will
be, and we're going to be integrating that
in the future.
But there's so many, I mean, our customers,
the radio stations are saying, they're coming up
with ideas now.
What if we could do this?
What if we could add this thing?
What if we could do this?
So that to me is the success of
the project, is that anybody can come up

(39:07):
with a completely new idea to serve a
specific group.
And here's all of this content that you
can integrate, all of these different ways with
structured data, with an open API you can
access and can do anything you want with
it.
When I pitched on Rogan, the idea of
hyperlocal podcasts, I have hundreds of emails of

(39:31):
people saying, I love the, that no one
had thought of this, apparently.
A podcast, well, that you have to be
Rogan.
Who can compete with Rogan?
I can't do that.
It's too hard.
And when they think about it, hey, I
can do a podcast for my little town.
They get really excited.
And hyperlocalpodcast.com, I have a page that
just kind of shows you some easy way

(39:52):
to get started with podcasting.
And then I actually say, go to Dave
Jackson School of Podcasting, because that's the guy
who can teach you all this other stuff.
That is the future of podcasting.
It is the future of media in general
for this period of time.
Because we're in decentralization mode.
And when all of mainstream has gone completely

(40:13):
national, all the conversations are about national news,
Washington news, EU news.
It's all at this big top level stuff,
by the way, we all get spun up
about and all we do is go on
X or BlueCry and go and post videos
of it.
But there's a hunger, a thirst for local

(40:35):
programming, local interaction, and definitely and all the
research shows this for live, live things at
a local level.
So I think that is so we are
very successful in creating this entire toolbox for
anybody to go off.
Now, local can be a geographical locality or

(40:57):
can be a geography of interest.
I think either one is appropriate.
But that is where the future is.
Just creating more apps to do the same.
Yes, you may have something specific that, you
know, like a better playback engine.
I think that a lot of people enjoyed
Overcast, which in my mind, Overcast is a

(41:18):
legacy app.
You know, it was there early on.
People have used it.
There's a legacy user base.
But people are starving for more.
And they're actually that's the Rachel Maddow example.
They are starving for something that serves their
community.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So I think you said you used the

(41:42):
term the future of podcasting in the future.
It just sort of started stirring my head.
I was trying to keep my mouth shut
because you were on a roll.
But the future of podcasting, if it's hyperlocal,
that is beneficial to everybody.

(42:03):
Everybody up and down the chain of the
pod of what you might think of as
the as the true podcast infrastructure group.
I'm not talking about the podcast industrial complex
with all the advertising and that kind of
thing.
I'm just I'm talking about if you just
look at the plumbing of podcasting, the podcasters
themselves, the apps and the hosting companies, everyone

(42:27):
benefits because hyper hyperlocal approach explodes the number
of of people that are podcasting.
Yeah.
And so you have more podcasters needing more
hosting companies as you know, buying more hosting
accounts.
And all linking out to these new apps

(42:51):
and new, you know, new and new apps.
It feels weird to say, but you got
to throw Apple in there now because they're
starting to play.
You know, they're starting to change, change their
stuff to adopt 2.0 features.
You you have the people who so to
go to Godcaster for a second.

(43:12):
You know, so the way what God what
Godcaster is doing is.
In its current incarnation is that you're a
you're a you're a radio station or you
can be anybody, you can be a church,
you can be anyone.
But, you know, primarily our main customers right
now are radio stations.
You go on your radio station, you go,

(43:35):
you log into your Godcaster, you build your
player.
So you add in your live streams, your
podcasts, which are pulling from the index, you
arrange them, you make collections, which are sort
of like sort of like channel channels of
of different podcasts.
And you arrange all that into a player

(43:57):
and then you embed it in your website
or you stick it in your app.
That's that's that gets you to that gets
you to a digital presence.
But but the other aspect of Godcaster, and
this is this is where it goes to
the 2.0 at large.

(44:19):
Is that every every Godcaster app, every God's
Godcaster player that is created also creates an
RSS feed.
And that RSS feed is a feed of
your live streams and all the shows you
added to your player.

(44:39):
So if you are KDAV, you know, KDAV
radio, KDAV radio in, you know, in Birmingham,
Alabama, KDAV, KHCB, it's a real station.
It's a huge station in Houston, and they're
using it and they love it.
If you're KHCB in Houston, what you've got
is a player with all of your programming
lineup and your live streams, and then you

(45:01):
now have an RSS feed and that RSS
feed is a feed of your station.
So your radio station now has an RSS
feed of itself that people can now instead
of people bypassing your radio station and going
directly to something like Focus on the Family
and subscribing there, now they can subscribe to

(45:25):
KHCB directly in their podcast app of choice.
And now they're following your entire station.
So if you release new local content, it's
going to show up in their feed in
their podcast app because they're following you.
They're not following your programs individually.
So that sets the stage for the next

(45:48):
sort of it's taken, I mean, this has
been a sprint.
I mean, this is like five months of
development to build everything from scratch.
And so we finally got here now where,
you know, the you are here moment is
now like we've gotten most of the basics
covered.
Now we start to do the next phase,

(46:09):
which is the fun stuff, the real hardcore
2.0 stuff.
But that idea is for every new like
just using us as an example, for every
new Godcaster player slash user or whatever, you
now have an RSS feed.
You click on the link in the in

(46:30):
the player and you get this list of
2.0 apps and you can link out
and you can follow KHCB in Trufans or
Fountain or Podverse or Podcast Guru.
You can follow this radio station in all
the new 2.0 apps.
That's that way you got, you know, you
got some people, you've already got some people
who are going to listen to on the

(46:50):
website, but then you have hardcore users that
want to listen in their normal podcast app
and they can do that.
Eric PP just said, no agenda stream would
be perfect.
And I'm like, yes, I'm going to have
to put that together.
Excellent example.
Like what we're doing now is I'm finishing

(47:11):
up a new feature for adding multiple live
streams through the UI.
It's a complex UI.
So I'm almost finished with that.
So there's we're you know, we're still finishing
up some of these base level features, but
we're most of the way there.
But this is I think this was an
important thing.
The Godcaster product fits into a section of

(47:37):
podcasting 2.0 that I think is really
important.
We were we have been sort of building
and shepherding features based on what we're hearing
from podcast app developers and hosting companies and

(48:01):
theoretical needs.
But with a with an actual product, we
now have real experience that is guiding us.
We're building actual 2.0 things and we're
doing it in a way where we get

(48:23):
firsthand experience with it.
You know, many people use the podcast index
API that are not traditional apps, but you
just never see them.
Right.
And I know this because every time a
hiccup happens in the API, I get bombarded
with emails.

(48:43):
And there are people I forgot about.
There are people that are using the API.
We've got we've got people using the API
that hit us with Python scripts that all
they do is data analysis.
We've got people using it.
We all the time get pings from universities.
Yeah.
Doing a research project, doing research projects.

(49:06):
We have people using it for AI training.
We have all kinds of things that are
not traditional podcast apps.
And the thing about the podcast index API
is it is it is a it's a
full member of what podcasting 2.0 is.

(49:26):
And it's going to even become more so.
Podcasting 2.0 is not just the namespace.
We've had a lot of success with the
namespace, but that's it's not just that.
Podcasting 2.0 on a technical level is
the index, the namespace, pod ping and any
other spec that people come along with and

(49:49):
say, here's a thing that's wrong with podcasting.
What can we do to fix it?
And I want to fix it for this
particular problem I have, which may not be
a universal podcast app issue.
Right.
Yeah.
And we're, you know, so a good example

(50:12):
of that is like deprecating tags out of
the namespace.
I've never I've never wanted to do this.
I've always been opposed to this.
I've been open to it, but I would
need, you know, I just I just strongly
feel uncomfortable with it.

(50:34):
And I think we were shown this week
why it's a bad idea.
You had transistor that came out of nowhere
and added blue sky support to the social
interact tag.
So now all of a sudden they've taken
a tag that everybody has claimed is dead.
The social interact tag, where's my cross out
comments, cross out comments that aren't going anywhere.

(50:57):
And then transistor comes out and based on
their own desires, they like blue sky and
then they start looking around and they're like,
hey, look, just think called a social interact
tag.
We can take our love of blue sky
and we can stick that in the social
interact tag.
And now all of our feeds have the
ability to deliver blue sky comments to apps.

(51:22):
It's a delivery mechanism.
Now, the apps are going to have to
choose what to do with that information.
They can ignore it or they can embrace
it, but it's now there, whereas it was
not there before.
I can see an app that embraces this
becoming the de facto podcast app for blue
sky users.

(51:42):
Believe me, it's yes.
I mean, I see this opportunity.
It's so big.
And of course, I look at the boardroom
and I see the blue cry blue cry.
I mean, I have the same opinion, but
hey, but I'm not here just because of
my own opinions.
We're here.
Technology is agnostic.
It can be used for peace.
It can be used for war.

(52:04):
And it doesn't really matter to me.
So if we had, but if we had
said three, you know, if we had said
three months ago, the social interact tag, it's
just, it's just not, it's not getting adopted.
Nobody's using it.
Let's just deprecate it.
Well, exactly.
Then we would have take, we would have
cut the knees out from under transistor and

(52:26):
they would have had, they would have had
to build some new thing on their own
that didn't have the, the possibility of the
adoption that we, that we see with social.
That's such a great example, Dave.
And I forgot to put it on my
list.
I really encourage anyone who, if you want
to have a successful application that has podcasts

(52:49):
and comments, I'm not, I'm going to call
it a podcast app.
There's a, it's like, wow.
I mean, the hole is so big.
I can spin a 747 around in it.
It's like, come on, let's go build it.
They're waiting.
They are waiting for it.
Let them figure out what, what podcast they
want to surface or what they want to,

(53:10):
what they want to highlight that that's the
opportunity.
And it's, and it's poetic justice that, that
transistor did this.
Well, and, and then, and then now today
Apple, podcast TXT was one of, has been
one of the most poo-pooed tags in

(53:33):
the namespace.
What is this thing for?
It's silly.
Nobody's going to use this thing.
It's going to be niche forever.
And then Apple says, Hey, we just used
it and stuck it into our documentation as
a recommendation because it fits a need for
us.
That's the nature of the nature of open

(53:54):
source and collaborative projects is not some sort
of plebiscite.
It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a process.
Instead, it's a process where we try to
convince each other of a good idea.
Everybody takes a shot at convincing everybody else,

(54:17):
whether something's a good idea, knowing in advance
that you're never going to get unanimity, but
there might be enough people that get on
board that are willing to do some development
and, and create and bring a thing to
life.
And then six months, a year, five years,
10 years later, somebody picks that thing up

(54:39):
and makes something beautiful out of it.
That's the way this stuff works.
It's not a product delivery.
Here's another example.
As I have seen this huge influx of
P of interest for local podcasts and people
have emailed me, they say, thank you for
bringing this up.
We're already doing it.
I got this great, this is great to

(55:01):
local podcasts in Saskatoon, Canada.
Those guys are out of control.
They do a daily show.
They've got local, the local lumber yard is
sponsoring it.
I mean, it's, it's perfect.
Here's an, here's an idea, a local podcast
application.
How, how can I find the podcasts that

(55:22):
are in my area?
Now that means that the podcast will have
to start using the, um, the location tag.
And many of them do most don't, but
you watch when there's a place for them
to surface for people to search, people start
using that publish.
We'll start using the location tag about every

(55:43):
God, every Godcaster feed has a location tag
based on the, what the user put in
there as their radio stations location.
And that's when P when you start, when
you begin to have adoption like that, it
doesn't take long before the data guys out
there start to really take notice.

(56:04):
Yeah.
Was it, is it listen.godcaster.com?
Listen.godcaster.fm. Oh, .fm. I made a
horrible marketing mistake there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, you, you go to listen
.godcaster.fm and you just type in something
like Texas and it shows you all the
stations.
Boom, boom.
Look at that.

(56:24):
How many are in Texas?
One, two, three, four, five, a lot in
Texas.
So all, all these, the, this is, these
are, this is not a podcast app.
Listen.godcaster.fm is not a podcast app.
No, it's a search.
It's a search engine, but we're using the
location data out of the podcasting 2.0

(56:44):
namespace to find, to find this stuff.
And it'll get better over time as we,
you know, as we, uh, refine this with,
with like James's new proposals for the location
tag, uh, tag to, to tweak that and
make that better.
This is a, this is, I just think
we need to go back to this question
of, of what Rob said.

(57:06):
Has it lived up to the expectations?
What are the expectations?
Yeah.
In my, for my money, I come here
every Friday because it's so successful because of
the success of what we've built here, which
manifests itself in many different ways.
If we're only thinking inbox structured podcast apps,

(57:30):
well, you're going to get what you get,
but that's not the success.
You know, actually it was something on the
new media show that Todd said, which I
thought was really a salient point.
He said, if you're going to start a
show and you want to go to YouTube,
this is not a video or audio question.

(57:51):
There's 160 million, I think that was the
number, YouTube channels versus 250,000 global weekly
podcasts or podcasts that update at least on
a 10 day basis.
Where do you want to be?
Where do you, where do you, where do
you think you can get some traction?
Right.
I mean, it's, it's, it's dead simple to

(58:15):
me.
And it's not a question of, is, I
mean, we, we just had this huge, funny,
I'll have to say a headline in Newsweek
saying that this podcast, MediaTouch podcast, MediaTouch network
had dethroned Joe Rogan.

(58:37):
And they show the pod scribe, is it
pod scribe?
The pod scribe stats.
And pod scribe uses a tracking pixel.
So I don't think it's, you know, I
don't think it's jacked.
They probably, IAB 2.2394 compliant.
But what they do is they have about
100,000 downloads or 100,000 people and

(59:00):
they release 15 episodes a day.
Well, do the math.
Jeez.
Yeah.
So if you, you know, if you release
15 episodes a day, you're going to get
to over a million downloads on a daily
basis.
And at the end of the month, you're
going to look pretty good with 57 million.
Oh, that's the, that's the Steve Bannon model.

(59:21):
You, you, you release, instead of one four
hour episode, you release four one hour episodes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, it's, it's, and it's absolutely
valid.
Now it's, is the content compelling?
I think they probably have about 100,000
people subscribed to, and this was not including
YouTube.
YouTube has similar numbers.
But it was purely based on, on the

(59:42):
download chart.
And so I think, you know, and you
know, would they run bots?
Could they, could have, I don't think so.
But I think that's a, that's a strategy
and then do a press release and boom,
you know, we dethrone Joe Rogan.
People don't know.
They don't know how that works.
Right.
There, there's so much going on under the

(01:00:03):
sort of behind the scenes with all this
stuff.
I mean, Sam is adding, you know, he
just added activity pub support for comments to
true fans for, for comment threading.
I mean, like these are all, all of
these are major things that just happened this

(01:00:24):
week.
Yeah.
I don't, the, this whole concept of 2
.0 being some kind of dead endeavor, it
doesn't make any sense.
There's no definition in the question of what,
what success is.
And if we think success has to be
Adam going out and telling everybody to use

(01:00:46):
these tags and more podcast apps to use
these tags.
Well, no, that, that, that's not success.
And it's also not necessary anymore.
That's, that's the main thing I'm trying.
I can't hammer this home hard enough.
Local podcasts will, will lift the tide for
all, as you pointed out in particular for

(01:01:07):
the, for the hosting companies.
This is local podcasts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is where you want to be.
This is, this, this is the audience.
This is where you want to be marketing.
You want to be, don't just tell people
how they can start and grow their show.
No offense, Todd.
But how can you serve your community?
How can you create a podcast for your

(01:01:27):
church?
How can you create a podcast for your
scout group?
Whatever it is.
This, that, that, that thing you just talked
about with Rogan and the, what was the
name of the other podcast?
Midas Touch.
The podcast industrial complex is obsessed with things
like this.
It's obsessed with who's at the top, who's

(01:01:48):
got the biggest audience, who's got the biggest
advertising budgets, who's got the, you know, it's
just, it's all a bunch, it's, it's a
humongous popularity contest.
But what drives actual podcasting, you know, ask
the hosting companies, what drives actual podcasting is
normal people with small audiences.

(01:02:09):
And I mean, well, they don't, they don't
want the Rogans costing them a fortune.
It's actually bad.
Yeah, it's bad.
Like what, what drives podcasting as a, as
a, as a broadcast medium is the small,
it's the humongous pool of people all doing

(01:02:33):
it.
It's the, it's the suspensors and the blueberries
and the day, the, the, the, um, Daniel
J.
Lewis is that, or, you know, that, that
future of podcasting probably does, you know, has
the same size audience as our, as our
show does not big, but it's a, it's
a great show and it adds to the

(01:02:56):
conversation and it adds to what podcasting is
as a medium.
All that, that is what podcasting is.
It's not, it's not these humongous gargantuan shows
or it's just, that's not the future.
Or humongous adoption of, of one type of
app.
Right.
Yes.

(01:03:16):
Yes.
And by the way, if you look at
Fountain, they've got their crap together, man.
They're marketing, they're marketing all the time.
They've got their own charts.
They've got their own, you know, promotions.
They've got all kinds of things they're doing
and trying out.
And you know, is it, is it making
a dent in the, in the OP3 stats?

(01:03:37):
No, but they're surviving.
You know, they're, they're, they're alive.
I think they pay themselves salaries.
They were able to raise funding on it.
Um, you know, I'm seeing that, you know,
they are 95% of all, uh, the,
the boosts and the streaming traffic.

(01:03:57):
So, you know, you're either paying four to
5% of your streaming and boost traffic
to them, or you're paying for a premium
subscription.
I get a premium subscription.
I love it.
You get, you know, all kinds of extra
things unlock and they're doing it for a
very specific audience.
They don't need to be Apple.

(01:04:18):
They don't need to be Spotify.
No, they're, they're satisfying a whole different, and
the tie into Noster is exactly what they
should be doing.
And we're never a go, we meaning the
podcasting 2.0, the people who are involved
in it, are never, we're just never going
to do marketing.

(01:04:38):
It's just never.
Of what?
What are we going to market?
But number one, it's just not who it's
just not who we are as, as people.
And the number two, it's not necessary because
I had a grand total of about three
conversations with Ted Hossman in the last two
years about the podcast TXT record as a

(01:05:01):
solution to the verification need.
And it's in it.
Boom.
It's in.
I never did a keynote.
We didn't, we didn't pimp that thing.
It just, what matters is does it meet
your needs?
We were standing outside the hotel at podcast
movement.
I think that's where the main conversation that
took place right outside the lobby, if I

(01:05:22):
recall.
Right.
Yeah.
And then we had a follow-up conversation
with it about it after and hashed out
a couple more details after they released transcripts.
Was about a year ago.
And so it's just not necessary.
What, what, the only thing that matters is
does this thing meet your need?

(01:05:45):
And if it does, you're going to use
it.
If it doesn't, you won't.
So if you want to see, we've mentioned
it before.
If you go to hellofred.fm, you'll see
the Godcaster in action.
You'll see the live stream.
The live stream is Adam's radio station.
It's my little radio station and I run
it with with my friend, Jimmy, pastor Jimmy,

(01:06:08):
and we pick the music together.
We, in this case, there's a couple of
V4V songs in there, and I'd love to
add the remote item tag.
We'll get in there eventually so we can
stream them sats, but in general, it's licensed
music.
And because it's a stream, I pay ASCAP
BMI through live 365.
So it's all doable because it's a small,

(01:06:29):
it's a small community and I run promos
in there.
And those promos are for local podcasts.
We have one guy, he does the Capitol
report.
He goes to Austin and he comes back
and then every week he gives a five,
he's a five minute podcast.
And he talks about what's being decided in
the Texas legislature, which the people, his name
is Matt and people know him from church

(01:06:50):
and know him from town.
Like, Hey, Matt, I heard you, I heard
your report.
That's great, man.
Everybody is happy about that.
Here's the one, here's an opportunity and it's
two pronged.
If anyone's interested in working with me on
creating a hellofred.fm app for iOS and
Android, and we have everything available.

(01:07:12):
We have an API so you can tap
right into that for the app.
I would love to work with you on
doing that.
And the opportunity is, I'd love to have
a couple of app developers.
When we have one of our customers who
wants to do an app, they have a
couple of places they can choose from.
Some of them are already going with some

(01:07:34):
app companies, but I think there's an opportunity
for people who want to work for radio
stations, possibly churches, because that's all consolidated too,
by the way.
And they're kind of hurting because you have
these app companies and they've gone to all
the radio stations and a lot of these

(01:07:54):
stations are there and the app companies, they
have a very set template and they may
or may not want to add additional resources
into integrating an API.
A lot of them stick our PWA in
like a web view, which is fine, but
you don't get all the CarPlay and Android

(01:08:17):
auto features.
And I think there's opportunity there and we'd
love to share with anyone who's interested.
Yeah.
I think there's a big opportunity for podcasting
2.0 apps in general to sort of

(01:08:41):
white label themselves to a specific market.
Rather than showing everybody the entire index, because
that's not what Godcaster does.
For Godcaster, we have a curated set of
feeds and most of the time as a

(01:09:04):
user, you're searching in that database of feeds,
which is only less than 2000 feeds and
they're feeds that cover 99% of what
our specific customer base wants.
And they can search the full index, but
what happens is the way it works is
if you try to add a feed to

(01:09:25):
your player and that feed is not in
the local database, then it searches the index.
So you have to be real.
It keeps people from just putting a bunch
of junk in there.
But any app, TrueFans, Podverse, Podcast Giver, any

(01:09:46):
of these apps could spin off another app
with a subset that targets a specific audience
and white label that app as another thing,
because that's what happens in the church world.
There's lots of app developers.
If you go to a church, if you
look up a church on the app store,

(01:10:08):
they may have an app and it's probably
from one of a handful of app developers
who just white label their base app as
that church's name.
And then they just bundle it, ship it
to the app store and they're done.
You could do that as a podcast app,
you know, to give a very streamlined experience

(01:10:30):
for just your target audience like, you know,
like Fredericksburg or Birmingham, Alabama.
That way it shows up and you get
all the local SEO goodness and all that
kind of stuff kind of baked in.
There's a lot of opportunities for that.
So just briefly, since there seemed to be
a little bit of confusion about Podcast Index,

(01:10:54):
I'll just reiterate.
Podcast Index is an LLC.
Adam and Dave are the two partners.
We set it up as an LLC for
two reasons.
One for protection.
That's why you have a limited liability company.
So we can't be personally sued for anything
that someone might go crazy about.
And two, for control.

(01:11:15):
I'll be very honest about it.
We want to control what its destiny and
what happens with it.
And the finances work as follows.
Every Satoshi that we receive, and it's typically
one sat per minute from almost every stream
that comes in.
If you grab the value block from the

(01:11:40):
index and not from the feed, which I
don't know, I think most apps grab it
from the index.
I'm not sure.
I know Podcast Guru doesn't.
So I'm not sure.
A lot of them will look it up
first and then maybe look at the index
secondarily.
If it's from the index, then we insert
a 1% fee.
So if you just look at the index

(01:12:03):
node, you'll see one sat, one sat, one
sat, just continuously one sat.
If someone sends a boost, then yay, we
get 1% of that boost.
All of the Satoshis from day one have
stayed on the podcast index node.
And with that, if you need a channel,
and it was different a little bit earlier
on, now Albi Hub, there's LSPs in the

(01:12:25):
mix, but anyone who needs a channel, we'll
open a channel to you.
We have big channels open to some of
the main players.
And we use that purely for liquidity purposes
to keep the lightning network flowing.
All of the PayPals all go into our
PayPal account, and then our, I guess, Dave,
you regularly slush that off into the bank

(01:12:47):
account.
So I have an automatic, all of our
hosting fees get paid automatically from the PayPal
account.
And then anything that's left, anything that's left
in the account over a thousand dollars at
the end of each week gets swept into
the bank account.
And so that money just stays in the

(01:13:09):
bank account.
At the end of the year, when it's
tax time, because of the nature of the
LLC, Adam and Dave get taxed on the
income minus the, you know, the corporate expenses.
And then we pay ourselves whatever our tax
liability is so that we pay that to
the IRS.
And that's all.

(01:13:29):
We don't take a penny, a penny of
anything.
And we're happy that way because we want
to build this fund up long enough that
if RSS.com and Buzzsprout and Blueberry and,

(01:13:50):
you know, all the individual $25 donors, if
that dries up for some reason, that at
least the index can continue for a number
of years while we figure out what to
do with it.
Right.
And I said this before, if that ever
did, if that did happen, if the end,
if for some reason, all the, everybody pulled

(01:14:11):
out.
We'd pay for it out of our own
pocket.
And then, and then, and then we could
run for two, three years, however long till
the funds ran out.
At that point, when the funds run out,
I would just cut the index down to
the bone and we'd pay for it out
of our own pocket.
Absolutely.

(01:14:31):
And that that's another reason why we want
to decentralize the index is because in the
process, it lowers the hosting fees and makes
all of this even makes all of this
more sustainable.
Yeah.
Well, I'm done.

(01:14:52):
I need to smoke now.
Light up a cigarette, Dave.
A cig.
I need a ciggy.
I think it's, I think it's.
And I'm thankful, by the way, I'm, I'm
very thankful to Mark and In and Around.
Mark, it's Mark, isn't it?

(01:15:13):
I think it is.
Is that?
I think it is from In and Around.
Captivate?
Yeah, I think so.
Mark, Captivate?
I think so.
I don't think that's the same show.
Yeah, In and Around podcasting.
Yeah, I think that's, I think it's Mark.
I may be wrong.
Come on, boardroom, help me out.
Yes, Mark.
Thank you.
I'm very grateful that he did that.

(01:15:34):
And I'm grateful he did that clickbait.
Yeah, I'm grateful.
Okay.
That really was good.
It was the jolt that we all needed.
It sparked my thinking, gave me clarity.
And I hope that we've, you know, that
we've helped out here and that people, you
know, sit back and let it swish around

(01:15:54):
in your brain for a second and think,
you know, what can I do with this?
What can I do with this?
I know there's a lot of people who
are purely interested in the content.
Okay.
I mean, man, the music stuff, Ellen Beetz
is great.
I think that we have a lot of
exploration we can do on the lit tag.

(01:16:16):
And who was on, I was very impressed
with her on the podcast Weekly Review.
Her name was Rookie Thomas of, Rocky, I'm
sorry, Rookie.
Rocky Thomas of Soundstack.
Rookie.
Sorry, Rocky.
Didn't mean to call you Rookie.
Rocky Thomas of Soundstack.
She knew exactly what she was talking about.

(01:16:38):
She knows about all of the tags.
And she's very excited about the lit tag.
And I was delighted to hear that.
Oh, nice.
Nice.
Nice.
And I, you know, and this is something
that is, you know, well, we've talked about
it before.
This is what radio stations need to pay
attention to.
This is, so much can be done with

(01:16:59):
this.
And I think, Eric, I think I have
to talk to Bemrose, but I think I'm
kind of considering setting up a Godcaster for
the No Agenda stream because, man, it really
is perfect.
It is perfect for the No Agenda stream
with the 24-7 stream and then put
in all the podcasts that are featured on
the stream.

(01:17:19):
You can rearrange them so we know what's
coming up next, or there's a whole bunch
of things.
And then, of course, you can subscribe to
it, to the entire No Agenda stream arsenal
of podcasts in any podcast app.
Booper, you just posted some kind of screenshot
from a, looks like a Nostra chat where
Sam Means from Wavelake is talking about the
podcast index LLC privacy policy in terms of

(01:17:42):
service.
I don't really know what is being said
there, but let me just like state this
on the record.
I have no idea what's in that thing.
That thing was created by Eric, who was
a partner with us when we first launched

(01:18:04):
this.
And he wrote, or he birthed that entire
thing.
And I honestly have- It's probably copy
pasted from somewhere else.
I think it is.
What I'm trying to say is, no, well,
I'm trying to say two things.
First, we probably need to go and look

(01:18:24):
and actually see what's in that thing and
see if it's like, do privacy policies and
stuff really have to be so confusing?
Can't they just be straightforward?
I honestly just don't know what half of

(01:18:45):
it means.
And the other thing is, don't get too
hung up on it because I think it's
basically, it's like it got written by AI
or something.
I don't, any specific thing in there is,
like I said, we don't even know what's
in there.

(01:19:05):
All right, fine.
Like if you're freaked out by something that
says in there, I mean, like email it
to me and we'll like, I don't know.
We'll try to figure it out.
I think it's purely just lawyer stuff.
Yeah, of course it is.
Eric was just trying to keep us from
getting sued.
What it looks like, and I don't know
why Sam is doing that, but it looks

(01:19:26):
like he is saying that if we or
our assets are acquired, if we go out
of business or bankrupt, then we can transfer
all the assets.
Well, yeah, I guess we could, but ultimately...
But we could do anything we want though.
Yeah, I mean, ultimately it comes down to
trust.
And as we've stated quite clearly, we want

(01:19:49):
to decentralize the index.
So if you're really worried, then help us
decentralize.
Oh, sure.
Like, I mean, it's not just that that
thing says it that makes it where we
could do that.
We could just do it.
I mean, but it's not about, it's not
a privacy policy that keeps us from being

(01:20:11):
douchebags.
It's the fact that we're not douchebags.
Yeah, exactly.
That's what keeps us from doing stuff like
that.
It's not because we've been, oh my God,
I really want to run off to Mexico
with all the funds from Podcast Index, but
this damn privacy policy is keeping me from
doing it.
We can't do it, Dave.
We can't do it.
It's not like that.

(01:20:32):
It's just not the way that works.
That's hilarious.
Well, let's see.
Let's see what's in the Wavelake terms of
service.
Is this a tit for tat?
I'm just interested.
It doesn't really matter.
Look, there's never even any consideration of that
because nobody would ever buy us anyway.

(01:20:56):
What are you buying?
We're the most worthless thing in the whole
world.
But what's your TAM?
What's your total addressable market?
Yeah.
What do you get?
We already gave it all away.
It's completely useless.
What you get is an index that everybody
uses for free.

(01:21:18):
Oh, man.
Oh, man.
You get a tax bill at the end
of the year.
That's what you're buying.
That's what you get.
Yeah, exactly.
Anything else on your agenda, sir?
I don't think so.
Well, yes, I do have stuff, but I
just don't think we have time.
All right.
I want to talk because I've been working
on the new aggregator and it's as expected.

(01:21:44):
It's been a challenge.
But, you know, the initial runs are promising.
It's not doing much, but the initial runs
are, you know, we're parsing like a gig
of XML in about six and a half
seconds.
That's pretty quick.
What kind of machine is that?
Uh, just a run of the mill, like

(01:22:04):
Core i7.
I mean, that's like, I think it's like
a three-year-old processor.
It's not.
How much memory, though?
You're reading it in your memory, right?
The memory is not.
No, no, no, no.
This is from the file system.
Oh, really?
Wow.
Yeah.
That's six and a half seconds off the
file system.
We're not even at the memory part yet.

(01:22:25):
Crazy.
No, it's, I mean, it's promising, but it's
hard.
I, uh.
We'll talk about it next week.
I will say that, um, my.
Wait, you're not going to be here next
week, right?
Uh, well, yeah, I am.
Yeah, I'm here.
When is it going to be?
It's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
So I come back late Wednesday night.
I do no agenda Thursday morning and then

(01:22:46):
we have our regular, uh, regular show.
Um, I will say that I've been receiving,
uh, payments on my strike wallet from the,
from the 2.0 feed and it's working
beautifully.
Um, I think most of these are probably
from fountain, but I don't know.
Fountain, they were putting in a links for

(01:23:08):
me to read the whole thing, but they're
not doing that anymore.
I'm not sure why.
Uh, let me see.
Well, maybe not.
Let me see who did.
Um, let's see.
Should we put our, I know I'm, I'm,
I'm going backwards here, but should we put
our privacy policy in terms of service as
GitHub repos and then let people do pull

(01:23:30):
requests on it?
Fine with me.
And then they can make it be whatever
they want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Let's do it.
That's fine with me.
I'm good with that.
Open source, uh, private, I think it's more
the terms of service.
I don't know if the privacy and what
privacy.
Yeah.
That's uh, you know, isn't our API, do

(01:23:51):
you have to have a key for the
API?
Did we ever make part of it open?
Some calls are open, but, but others are,
but most of them are key.
Okay.
Well, let's thank some people who've supported, uh,
this wonderful project.
Okay.
Starting with Randy black, one, three, two, one
Satoshi.

(01:24:11):
She says, go podcasting, salty crayon, 1701 beaming
you up with some feel better karma.
Dave reset with some bone broth, five by
five in the beef.
I got it.
I run, I got to run, get my
paper.
I'll be okay.
I'll keep reading triple seven from Eric PP
with a Godcaster boost.
Thank you brother.
Uh, as discussed, uh, 1,200, 123,456

(01:24:35):
Satoshi's from dreads, Dreb Scott, uh, who says
I find this, I find value in this
project.
We appreciate that.
And Dreb, you don't have to do that
because you already provide so much value, uh,
particularly doing the chapters for, uh, for the
board meeting.
We appreciate that.
A, uh, 77, 77 from Lyceum, uh, from
coming in from, uh, true fans value for

(01:24:58):
value, value verse music, sweet namespace talk, super
comments, and other stuff are music to my
ears.
Here is sound effect by Harpo marks.
Yes, you did the Harpo marks.
We've came in.
We all, we all heard it.
Maybe Camille Cary and Kennerly K kit of
the harp twins could be interested in phantom
power music, wave Lake fountain, dot FM radio,
et cetera.
Go podcasting best premises.

(01:25:19):
Martin Lindeskog.
He is, uh, of course, uh, Lyceum at
true fans, dot FM, Mike Newman, triple seven,
save the taggies.
And I hit the delimiter.
Nope.
I've got a PayPal from our buddies at
bus Brout a thousand dollars.
There you go.
Shot caller 20 is blaze on the Impala

(01:25:42):
much appreciated boys.
Thank you so much.
I may you have straight to me.
You have many local mortgage of my Mexican,
my second home in Mexico.
Wait, no, that's a, I think that's a
Sam Sethi has a second home in Mexico,
doesn't he?
Oh, does he?
Yeah.
I heard him talking about it.
Oh, nice.
That's always beautiful.

(01:26:03):
That's only the second.
He may have a third or a fourth.
I don't know this.
Uh, and we got the, thank you, bus
Brout.
Uh, we've also got a $300 from blueberry.
There you go.
Shot caller 20 is blaze on the Impala.
Thank you very much, Todd and crew.
We appreciate you.
And, uh, Todd and the crew said, excited

(01:26:26):
to see podcast index, get back into introducing
new features, the blueberry team.
Well, we love the blueberry team.
We do.
Uh, and I gotta get, um, I gotta
get back in touch with what are you
doing, brother?
I'm doing all kinds of stuff.
I'm gonna get back in touch with, uh,

(01:26:46):
with Tom over at bus Brout.
Cause we, um, we've been taught, we've been,
uh, batting some stuff around.
Um, and then we ended, we ended up
with both, both our kids are in college.
And, uh, so we, I gotta, I gotta
get back over there with him and, uh,
figure out, figure out where they're at.
And I, I've, I'm, uh, talking to a

(01:27:08):
band over at RSS.com this week.
We got a call, just need to catch
up with people, figure out where we're at
and what people need.
And you know, it's just, it's just good
to touch base, uh, sometimes and figure out
what people need so we can help like
help prioritize what we're doing.
Absolutely.
Um, cause not, not people don't always, they

(01:27:30):
don't always just offer it.
Sometimes you got to check in.
Sometimes you got to drag it out of
them.
Yeah.
Let's see.
We got, uh, Oh, here we go.
Uh, we got some boost.
Oh, wait, we got another, uh, PayPal.
Where'd we get?
Oh, this is, Oh, here we go.
We got a last minute PayPal from Dave

(01:27:51):
Jackson school of podcasting, $50.
Thank you very much, Dave Jackson.
He says, congrats on the Godcaster launch.
Can we get back to making streaming sats
easy?
Adam do a webinar to show off Godcaster
recorded and then use it as a demo.
Geeks want to know what tech is under
the hood for streaming live.
Yay.
Uh, thank you, Dave Jackson.

(01:28:11):
Appreciate that.
And now let's see, we've got some boosts
here.
Always got to sort it.
Uh, there we go.
I got way too many emails in my
box that we got.
I'll be 1984 through fountain says, love the
intellectual episode 4,000 sets.
Thank you.

(01:28:32):
Uh, we got Jean bean 10 24.
That's a killer boost through Castamatic says for
what it's worth world community grid and Rosetta
at home run the same way said he
did, but both give atta boys and such
and help you see how what your computer
is doing matters.
Yeah.

(01:28:52):
I think that's part, I think that needs
to be part of this.
Um, you know, I think it needs to
be part of it because it's important that
your compute cycles aren't just being blown, you
know, blown up all the time.
You did, you actually see that it's doing
something.
I don't know exactly how to do that

(01:29:13):
yet, but I D I think the feedback
is important.
I think that's a good observation.
Jean, um, Jean bean sent a 22 22.
He says what Dave is describing about how
the index could be sharded out reminds me
a lot of Boink B O I N
C Boink Boink.
It's at B O I N C dot

(01:29:36):
Berkeley dot edu.
That's the underpinning of world community grid Rosetta
at home and many other projects.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
Boink.
Maybe it ties into a DHT somewhere.
Observe the Boink.
Okay.
Uh, let's see.
And we got comments for a blogger 15
,150 sats through fountain.

(01:29:57):
He says, howdy, Dave and Adam grumpy old
Ben's podcast is on hiatus because Ben Rose
got well-paid job in Seattle as manager
of delivery driver for Amazon.
So I'd like to recommend another grumpy pod,
grumpy old dames at www dot grumpy old
dames.com by lady loca and my fellow

(01:30:19):
Pomeranian are art of aficionado lady Vox, the
singer quote from their website, quote dames are
the ambassadors of womanhood.
They offer a mature female perspective end quote.
In last episode, they talk love, no agenda,
how women find men.
Yo CSP.

(01:30:39):
Oh, how women find men.
Oh, there's one.
I got to tune into.
I've always wanted to.
That's right.
It's a church, of course, a church.
Did you have as well?
I guess the monthly's got Jean Liverman, $5,
uh, new media productions as a Todd and
Rob $30.
Ooh, thank you.
Michael Hall, $5 and 50 cents.
Timothy voice, $10.

(01:31:01):
Trevor.
That's down under Satan's lawyer.
He's way down under $5.
Boy, Steen.
Yes.
The O has a little slash through it.
So, you know, it's legit $5.
Jorge Hernandez, $5 and Michael Goggin, $5.
Thank you so much.
And a reminder, I think Oisín comes on
with his mutton meat and music after the,

(01:31:22):
uh, uh, after the board meeting.
He's been doing that for every Friday for
quite a while.
So you can just stay tuned.
And, uh, I think he actually stays in
the 2.0 chat.
I believe, I believe all the time.
He just never leaves.
No, he's just, he's just glued to it.
He's just there all the time.
Uh, we did get a late boost from
gaggle pod, 77, 77.

(01:31:43):
Great to be among the walking dead.
Podcasting 2.0 is far from dead.
So as long as one of us is
still carrying the innovation torch, have a great
weekend and go podcasting.
Beautiful.
Thank you all so much for being here
at the board meeting today.
Thank you for participating in our value for
value project to keep all of the machines
worrying and the steam coming out of the
pipes.

(01:32:03):
Uh, go to podcastindex.org down at the
bottom, you can, uh, you'll find a big
red PayPal button and it would be great.
You know, if someone could put our, uh,
do a poll request at our, uh, our
on chain, um, address there, that'll be cool.
So that people can donate if they just
want to donate on chain, you know, you
might have a Bitcoin laying around, you know,

(01:32:24):
send it off to podcasting next, just saying.
Um, so you can use that for your
Fiat fund coupons.
And of course all of the modern podcast
apps that understand how it works, you can
boost us.
Uh, it does matter.
And everyone gets to participate in the benefits
of that, which is liquidity for all Dave.
It must, is it busy again for you?
Is it, is it, uh, you know, now

(01:32:45):
that all the IRS agents are being fired,
does that mean you guys have to do
more work or is everyone just happy?
Like, Oh, we can sit back and relax.
There's no audits this year.
No, the worst part about IRS agents getting
fired is that you still get all the
letters, but you just can't get anybody on
the phone.
He's just sending it into a big black
hole.
The letters don't stop.
Believe me.

(01:33:06):
All right, brother.
Thank you so much.
Appreciate you and have yourself a great weekend.
All right.
You too, bro.
And everybody in the board meeting.
Thank you very much.
Board members.
Good to have you here.
We will be back Friday and I'll bring
some information back from Dallas.
I'm sure.
We'll see you right here on podcasting 2
.0. You

(01:33:39):
have been listening to podcasting 2.0 visit
podcast index.org for more information.
Go podcasting.
It can be used for peace.
It can be used for war.

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