Episode 231: Keep Publishing!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for August 22nd, 2025, episode
231.
Keep publishing.
Hello everybody, welcome to Podcasting 2.0. We
are the official spot to find out what's
really happening in podcasting.
We don't hold back on anything.
We've got the down, the dirty, everything you

(00:21):
need to know.
We are in fact the boardroom.
This is where it all happens.
And on that, we're the only boardroom that
was at the Podcast Standards Project meeting.
I'm Adam Curry, here in the heart of
the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the
man who attends all the meetings while holding
down two jobs and going to school.
Say hello to my friend on the other
end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.

(00:49):
Exactly what episode number was this again?
Did I say it?
231.
You said.
Yeah, well you won't hear that because that's
just the fake opening.
And then once we have a show title,
I actually expertly edit a new opening on
to every episode.
So it's like, wow, he already knew the
show.
They know what they're gonna talk about before

(01:10):
they even did it.
That's amazing.
It's magic.
It's totally magic.
Welcome to episode 231.
Hey, Dave Jones, how you doing?
Good.
Okay, great.
That's it everybody.
See you next week.
You call me.
Mid mix swallow, yes, yes, yes, yes.

(01:33):
Hello boardroom.
Good to see y'all.
Good to have everybody here in the board
meeting.
Is Nathan back?
Who's back?
Because I saw a few of the board
members in Dallas.
Who did you see?
I need a full report.
You need a report, yes.
But can I guide the report though?
Yeah, I would like to guide the report.

(01:53):
Okay, I'm not sure what that means, but
I'll fly with you.
Go ahead.
Okay, what it means, I would like to
know, first of all, who did you see
in person?
In person?
Well, of course, Rocky Thomas.
Oh yeah, Rocky.
She was the first person I saw, because
you know me, I'm a baby, and I'm
like, hey, listen, when I show up, because

(02:14):
I was flying in in the morning, and
I've been to the Gaylord hotels, and if
you don't know where you're going, you can
get very lost.
And below 5,000 feet, I'm pretty bad
with directions anyway.
So I said, Rocky, can you send someone
to meet me at the front door?
And she was there, she was standing right
there.
With a limo, with a limo.

(02:35):
Well, I stepped out of the limo.
She had the bodyguards, everything ready to go.
Right away, I think Ben and Alberto and
Rob Kirkpatrick, so Ben and Alberto from rss
.com, we walked in, Rocky's husband, Sean, who's
a member of the whole big streaming conglomerate.

(02:59):
Yeah, the PSE.
The, see, James Cridlin, saw James.
By the way, James, you know, I forgot
about this.
Very tall.
He's handsome.
He's a handsome man.
Oh, that's not what I was going to
say.
I was just going to say tall.
He's a handsome man.
Yeah, he's a very handsome fellow.

(03:20):
Todd Cochran, another handsome fellow.
Daniel J.
Lewis, I'm going to forget half the people,
of course.
The boys from Buzzsprout?
Saw the boys from Buzzsprout.
Saw Nathan, Nathan G.
Saw- Spurlock, I'm sure you saw Spurlock.
I did not see Spurlock.

(03:40):
Oh, he wasn't there?
No, I don't think he was there.
But why would he?
There's no reason to be there.
I was only there just to, you know,
just to plug in.
One of these days we'll have to ask
him.
Yeah, one of these days we'll ask him
if he was there.
Oh, goodness.
I know him.
Ted, Ted Haussmann from the Apples, he was

(04:00):
there.
Oh, man, a lot of people, a lot
of people were there.
And yeah, so, you know, I hustled in.
You know, the whole headphone thing?
Justin Jackson from Transistor, I'm sure Justin was
there.
Justin was there.
I saw Justin.
Well, I, so I wound up, you know,
you're not guiding me anymore, so I'll just

(04:21):
take the reins.
I was just, I was just letting you,
I'm guiding you into, this part of the
guiding is, freestyle, do whatever you'd like.
Well, first of all, I'm on the WhatsApp
groups, the WhatsApp groups, the- Oh, man,
I'm so glad I'm not on that.
Oh, yeah, no, this is fantastic.
And the WhatsApp group, there was one for
the podcast movement.

(04:43):
There was a WhatsApp group and I joined
it.
And, you know, everyone's nerding out and they're
like, oh, look how many steps.
Everyone's counting their steps.
They're all part of the Borg.
And they're like, oh, how many steps have
you done?
How many steps?
Then they're going back forth.
Now, my plan was only to come in
for one day and go out, cause I'm
plenty busy, you know, podfather business.

(05:07):
So, I hooked my buddy, Mitch Maverick, the
periodontist, he hooked me up with his plane.
You know, with the jet.
Well, it is a turbo prop, so it
is a turbine engine, but it still has
a massive propeller on it.
And Jay flew, cause I'm not qualified on
the powerful machine like that.

(05:28):
How was the flight, by the way?
Smooth?
Comfortable?
45 minutes from the airport, five minutes from
my house.
I mean, you can't beat that going to
Dallas, which is a five hour drive, five
hour drive.
And you literally land at Addison airport and
you pull up to the FBO, the field
-based operator, and it's called Million Air.

(05:49):
I mean, does it get any better than
that?
No, beautiful.
Hey ladies, how are you doing?
Got any coffee for me?
I'm just going to freshen up here in
the lounge.
So everyone's, and by the way, Starlink is
on the plane.
So I'm, you know, I'm doing stuff on
the, I'm sitting in the back.
I'm doing stuff on the internet.
You're vibe coding.
You're vibe coding in the back.
I'm vibe coding in the back.

(06:10):
And I see everyone talking about their steps.
So I post a picture of me in
the back of the plane.
I'm like, these are my steps.
Flex.
Big flex.
Anyway, so Rocky and I did on the
sound stack stage, Rocky and I did a,
you know, like a fireside chat.

(06:31):
Now you have to imagine.
This is the headphone thing.
Yeah, but you have to, it's very interesting.
So it's a huge hall with carpet, which
for any trade show is incredibly welcomed and
appreciated and important.
So you don't, you know, if you're walking
on cement, you know, you're going to be
very tired at the end of the day.
So really nice plush carpeting.
And just imagine there's maybe seven stages all

(06:54):
in this big room in different locations, all
completely open.
So just a backdrop, chairs in the front,
standing room.
And when you come in, everybody gets a
pair of headphones and the headphones have three
controls, on, off, volume knob, and a channel

(07:14):
selector, which the outside of the headsets illuminate
in the color white, green, red, purple, or
blue.
And that signifies the channel.
So if you want to listen to our,
if you want to listen to our fireside
chat, you had to be on the white
channel, which I did remark was rather racist
of everybody.

(07:35):
And I thought this would be the worst
experience ever.
It is hands down the best thing I've
ever witnessed.
It was- Yes, because we're sitting on
stage, we have hand mics and you have
the headphones on yourself, but it's almost-
I'm seeing a picture of you right now,
yeah.
It's almost- You and Rocky.
Yeah, it's almost like you're doing a podcast

(07:55):
with everybody in the room because they all
have the headphones on.
First of all, you can make, you can
see everyone's listening to you because if someone
had a different color, you know, you call
them out like a body catcher.
You're like, hey, you're red, get out of
here.
But because of that, everybody's engaged.
You know, I've been on lots of stages

(08:16):
and you're always looking at the audience and
you try to, there's always one or two
people you catch their eye, you know, you
might look to them a couple of times
because they smile back or they laugh at
all your jokes, very encouraging.
But there's always people like on their phone,
looking away, talking to their neighbor, none of
that.
And then we do Q&A and, you

(08:37):
know, there was a lady there and she
was handing out the mic and it was,
you could hear them perfectly.
They could hear me.
It was an incredible experience.
Yes, and then later I walked to the
stage where James was interviewing the guy from
Coat Hanger.
What is that?
Goal Hanger.

(08:57):
I think Coat Hanger is better.
Coat Hanger.
And I was standing way in the back
behind all of the chairs and they had
the headphones on, just switch it to their
channel.
You could hear perfectly.
It was very enjoyable experience.
As much as I always like an amplified
room, I mean, I get it.
I'm all in.

(09:17):
I apologize for being negative about it.
I mean, I was too.
Just hearing it described, you're like, oh, this
is a train wreck.
But evidently in person, it works.
Eric PP says, how did they handle applause?
Well, yeah, there's no applause.
No one applauds.
You can't hear them applauding.

(09:38):
It's like, you can see people's hands moving,
but you don't hear anything.
And because it was a big open room,
applause doesn't really carry that far.
And with the carpeting and everything, it doesn't
bounce around.
Then had lunch with the RSS boys, which
is kind of funny.
Like, come on, we'll take you to a

(09:58):
steak dinner.
My restaurant's closed.
Well, we'll go to the Italian place.
Restaurant's closed.
But we'll maybe we can get some bar
food over here.
Bar closed.
I'm gonna say, there's the marketplace, which is
basically stand in line, grab a sandwich.
And that was perfect.
The food court.
Yes, the food court.
That was perfect.
And then they said, well, why don't you
come over to the PSP meeting, the Podcast

(10:19):
Standards Project?
That was interesting.
Now, I think they were doing a couple
of these.
They had one the previous day.
This is, you know, so it's a nice
room and everybody sat in a big circle
and held hands and shared a secret.

(10:40):
And Justin from Transistor was kind of running
it, which was, he's very good at that.
And it was an interesting vibe, I would
say.
Almost immediately, you know, well, let's talk about
HLS and video and streaming and video and
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, video,
video, video, video, video, video.
Now, this was an open session though.

(11:01):
This was not like a closed door meeting
of the PSP.
No, no, anybody could come in and-
Okay, good.
And, you know, see Rob Walsh was there.
Todd was there.
The RSS guys, Buzzsprout guys.
I'm sure I missed many others.
But, you know, obviously they focused on the
video.
They're talking about all these different things and

(11:21):
the protocols.
It could be all agree on one type
of encoder and et cetera, et cetera.
And someone said, hey, Adam, since you're here,
what are your thoughts?
On video?
Yeah.
Buckle up.
Yeah, I said, well, honestly, I think you're
all wasting your time and money, but it's

(11:43):
okay.
You can podcast PDFs for all I care.
He said, I'm more interested in lit.
That's where I think.
And then it kind of went to the,
well, we can do a lit over HLS.
At a certain point, the one thing that
was interesting is, you know, so what is
your concept of what the Podcast Standards Project

(12:03):
is?
What are they supposed to be doing?
My understanding, the way I see the Podcast
Standards Project is as a way to wrangle
the hosting companies to support a base set
of 2.0 tags.

(12:25):
I've always seen it as a way to
get the hosting companies on the same page
so that the hosting companies define the way
that they're going to move forward in phases
to adopt next generation podcasting tags.
Agreed.
And I think that was the general idea.
But what happened pretty soon, and someone actually
said, hold on a second, what's going on

(12:46):
here?
They were agreeing on certain standards, you know,
certain tags that will be implemented.
And then it's like, okay, well, that'll be
optional and that'll be optional.
And someone said, well, what's the point?
If we're sitting here agreeing on things, but
it's optional.
You know, and then I was getting pings
from the pilot.
He's like, you know, unless you want to

(13:07):
wait, we can go now and go in
between the storms.
Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.
Because everything was backed up and you know,
the ATC was routing people around and we're
small compared to some of the massive jets
that are out there.
And I guess they have priority.
So I had to leave at four to
get back to leave.

(13:28):
And I was, you know, we got back
home.
I was happy.
I was happy to be home.
I'm glad I didn't stay overnight.
Because, you know, it would have meant, because
it was like 9.45, our session.
So I would have had to go up
Tuesday, stay overnight.
They probably would have wait until Thursday, but
I couldn't do that because I got the
show.
So anyway, thank you, Maverick, for the lending
me your plane.

(13:49):
You did not tell me it drinks 60
gallons of jet fuel an hour, but okay.
You said, I'll chip in for fuel.
And you're like, oh crap, I should have
done that.
I'll pay for fuel, of course.
That's what I said.
I'll pay for fuel.
Cheap, a little bit cheaper than two nights
of hotel room.
Well, that's not bad.
Yeah, so it was good.

(14:09):
It was nice to be, everyone asked where
you were, of course.
How could, where's Dave here?
How can we get Dave?
Dave's not here, man.
Dave's not coming.
Dave's not going to come to this partay.
That would have been a train wreck.
Yeah.
Well, so the, so the PSP stuff did,

(14:31):
when somebody said, if it's, when somebody mentioned
it about the sort of ineffectiveness of things
being optional, did that change the room at
all?
Did they say, well, let's actually enforce some
things?
Yeah, I think so.
But that was just a little bit before
I left.
So I wasn't there for the conclusion.

(14:51):
You know what, what I did say, though,
is I said, I just have to stop
for a second.
And say, we are a quarter of a
century on.
And I am so delighted to see this
room.
I'm just, I just love everybody who's here.
I love that you're in it, that you're
all trying to get something going together.

(15:14):
It was truly, I almost choked up a
little bit.
It's just like, wow, look at all these
smart people.
You know, have all gotten into different, because
you always have app guys there.
They're all gotten into different areas of podcasting.
They all really want to make it work.
There's still an inordinate amount of, well, we

(15:34):
want to adopt these, so Apple and Spotify
will adopt them.
That would, to me is like, we're still
doing this.
Who cares?
You know, that's me, obviously.
But, you know, and I think I said,
look, if you publish, eventually it'll happen.
Just keep publishing.
That's just how it works.
Make the content, keep publishing.

(15:57):
We have many apps that already understand it.
You know, Pocket Cast is not small.
You know, they're adopting tags.
Just keep on it, keep publishing.
Just keep publishing because it always, these things
come from the bottom up.
There's, you know, there's always some software engineer
like, hey, what's this thing?

(16:18):
Where can I put that?
And then all of a sudden it shows
up and then someone in management goes, wow,
you did that?
You used a promotion.
That's one of the things I want to
talk to Spurlock about too is the HLS
stuff, because I know he's working on some
stuff as well.
And I want to see it work.

(16:40):
I mean, I want to see it work.
If we have, I mean, if we can
make a viable alternative to, you know, an
open distributed alternative for finding video content, even,
look, you'll never replicate YouTube.
You just can't because you can't replicate the
money losing- Yes, thank you.

(17:02):
Financial incentives that it produces.
It's just, it's a thing that exists.
Well, here's one of the fears that they
had, which I thought was valid.
It's like, well, if we start doing this
and by the way, the general consensus is

(17:23):
to have video in the alternative enclosure, which
I think is very interesting.
Yes, that's the right way to do it.
I love that.
I love that.
I think that's a great idea.
And everyone seems to be on board with
that.
But everyone realizes that, well, you know, if
we push this, Apple's probably going to do
video, but you'll have to upload your video

(17:43):
to iTunes Connect.
And I think there's a very real danger
of that.
Very typical.
See, Apple, the reason- I don't know,
I disagree.
I don't think that's accurate.
I disagree with that.
The reason I disagree with it is because
they do video already.
They already support video in a very inefficient

(18:05):
way.
We need to bring the guest in because
this is some tech talk.
Ladies and gentlemen, let's get into the tech
talk.
Let's bring in our special guest.
We talked about him on the last board
meeting and yes, there he is.
He jumped at the occasion.
Oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm being
involved in the bar drum.
Here I come, ladies and gentlemen.
He is behind op3.dev and many more
podcasting 2.0, podcastindex.socialprojects. Please welcome John

(18:30):
Spurlock.
Yeah, I took my own private jet as
soon as I heard.
It took me a week to get here,
but I'm glad to be here.
You rushed over, yes.
Hey, John.
I only spent 30 bucks a gallon.
Oh, no.
Hey, you weren't there, were you, at Podcast
Movement?

(18:51):
No, as soon as, so we lived in
Dallas for eight years and we recently moved
and so I was actually happy to hear
that it's going to be New York going
forward.
Yeah, so we're in New Jersey now.
We're in central New Jersey.
Where, where in New Jersey?
That's a big move.
Where in New Jersey?
Sort of central Jersey, so like the farmland,
basically.
I wanted to kind of like move out
as far as I could.
You could tell me the town or the

(19:12):
general county.
I mean, I lived in New Jersey for
12 years.
So you know where Bedminster is?
It's kind of like a little bit south
of that, basically.
So sort of nearer to Princeton, but she
got a job in New Brunswick, which is
Rutgers, which is their big college sort of
there.
So it's like, yeah, horrible bandwidth, but it's

(19:34):
really pretty out here.
People don't understand that when they say New
Jersey is the garden state, it's really true.
New Jersey is beautiful.
It's beautiful.
People always say, ah, New Jersey, me, me,
me.
It is stunning.
And it has seasons, like nothing against Texas,
but it's basically like, I mean, you're in
an oven in the summer, but there's really

(19:55):
not as much nature, right?
So it's like, I love seasons and it's
really great.
Again, except for the bandwidth.
So we have Xfinity here instead of ridiculous,
like 10 gig up and down that we
had in.
Well, have you tried Starling?
Because I mean, we only use it as
a backup because I've got five gig up
and down fiber, but Starling is surprisingly good.

(20:19):
Surprisingly good.
As a backup, you know, we got the
generator.
So we're going, you know, we're ready.
We're ready.
Do you have a landing strip?
We actually, we have enough room in the
back that we could actually, we just need
the plane.
Well, if you mow it, I'll come in.
Mow a strip for me, baby.
There's a soybean.

(20:40):
I'm looking at a soybean field here.
So if you land there in the off
season, it could work.
Soybeans are soft.
Yeah, you can make that work.
You heard the new, so it's going to
be in New York now.
So podcast movement going forward is going to
be in New York City.
Yeah, exactly.
But at least I'll be able to drive
if I want to go, so.
It's two and a half, two and a
half hours.

(21:00):
But I'm really glad to hear that.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Well, I'm glad you had a good time
though.
That sounds good.
It was perfect for me.
I mean, that's exactly, I wanted to see
everybody who I could see and hug everybody.
And that was perfect.
It was nice.
It was nice to be there.
And yeah, it was good.
Yeah, the old Edison Airport.

(21:21):
I think Nathan's from around there too, but
that's about where we lived in Dallas, sort
of that Northeast sort of area.
Another beautiful area of the Texas.
Nathan's in Chicago though, right?
He's in Chicago now.
Now he is, yeah, I believe so.
Yeah, okay, I believe so.
Yeah, but I disagree.
I disagree that Apple would somehow force people

(21:43):
to upload video through iTunes Connect.
I mean, I just don't think that-
Can I just give you the reason why
I say that?
Okay.
The reason why Apple is so slow with
everything is part of their DNA.
They care about one thing and one thing
only.
They want the most outstanding experience for their
customer, which is why they haven't put a

(22:07):
full-on AI LLM into their product because
they know it sucks.
And they've published research papers on it.
And they're just like, you know, we'll take
the heat.
We'll take the loss on the stock market,
but this hype is not good enough for
our customers right now.
So if there's any, if they go heavy
on video, and yes, I agree that it

(22:29):
already does video.
They really don't promote it that way.
But if they go heavy and say, hey,
we're really doing video now, and we're an
alternative, they are more concerned about the experience
for their customer than being part of an
open ecosystem, in my opinion.
Well, let me counter that because I think

(22:50):
that- Pirate.
I think that this is one of those
situations where it's a self-correct, no, it's
not correcting.
It's like a, so if you have enough,
let me just say, oh, here's a way
to say it.
If you have enough money to do a
video podcasting solution, then you, by definition, have

(23:15):
the means to do it well.
So like, if you think, I mean, the
larger hosts, Blueberry, Buzzsprout, RSS, Transistor, you know,
Captivate, these hosts that have solid infrastructure, Lipson,
they're going to charge for the product, for

(23:38):
the privilege, and they're going to build that
thing out correctly.
And so, you know, this is not, nobody's
going to be streaming HLS video from their
PowerPress install on their WordPress site.
Understood.
You know, I mean, they technically could, but
that's going to be such an outlier that
I think that the hosting companies that are

(24:02):
going to make this thing happen, I believe
also lend it the credibility of a proven
track record of content delivery.
True.
However, let's look at transcripts as an example.
So they may do an either or.
They recognize the transcript namespace tag, but the

(24:26):
first thing they did to make sure their
customers had an outstanding transcript experience is they
were doing the transcripts.
This is what I mean.
They will always want to do it themselves
to give their customers, you know, whenever something
breaks on an app, it's always the app's
fault.
None of the Apple users think, oh, well,
that's probably a problem with rss.com.

(24:48):
Yeah, but there's a huge difference between a
one kilobyte transcript and, you know, three gigs
of video that Apple, in order to support
something like this, would have to build out
an enormous infrastructure to support all the video
that they're going to do.
And Spotify was willing, what do you mean?

(25:11):
No, no.
I don't think they need infrastructure, right?
So to finish your thought, I didn't want
to.
No, I mean, if they're going to say
everybody uploads their video to Apple and then
we will distribute it, they would have to
build out a giant HLS infrastructure.
No, that's why they're not going to do

(25:32):
it.
I mean, they don't, they're not server people
over there, right?
Like name one server product from Apple that's
any good, right?
Mac drive.
Mac drive, dot Mac.
Yeah, exactly, iCloud, right?
So they love podcasting, right?
Because it's hosted by other people and they
can just like make it look great in
their player app.

(25:53):
And that's what's great about apps, can kind
of highlight stuff from others.
And I think it'll be the same way
with HLS.
Now the problem is if they turned it
on today, there would be what, like five
videos a day that would show up?
So I think that's part of it.
I was curious about this myself.
So I kind of just wanted to see
like off the fire hose of what was
coming in, like how many podcasts like use

(26:14):
this alternate enclosure, HLS thing today.
And so it's really not that many, but
it's cool to see like, you know, Fountain
does some, actually Dystopia does some.
Yeah.
And I actually put together a site instead
of just seeing it myself.
I was like, hey, everyone might be kind
of interested in this as well.
So if you go to HLS.livewire.io,

(26:36):
you'll see just like a crappy site with
all the videos that everyone's publishing out there
today, right?
So this is what Apple would see or
any app would see today.
John, did you vibe code this website?
No.
I had some pretty good vibes as I
was doing it.
Yeah, mostly coffee vibes.
By the way, the thing, here's the thing
that I learned at the PSP meeting.

(26:56):
The actual cost of doing video is not
the bandwidth.
I knew that would make you quiet.
I don't agree.
Crickets.
What is it, the encoding?
Yeah.
Compute.
That's, they all agreed on it.
They all- No, see, I didn't.
Well, hold on, hold on.
Wait, listen, listen to what I'm saying.

(27:18):
Not the encoding into HLS.
It's what people feed them.
So people are going to give them everything
from Windows video to MP4s, MV4, all these
different things.
They have to then re-encode that to
some kind of standard.
I still disagree.

(27:39):
I think they're thinking.
Now, if they're thinking that they're going to
have to have a fleet of transcoding compute
instances, well, on a cloud host somewhere, well,
yeah, sure, but you could run a few
boxes in-house.
I'm just reporting, Dave.
Don't shoot the messenger.

(28:00):
I'm just a roving reporter.
You could do quote unquote on-prem and
run a few boxes and do transcoding for
nothing.
Is this going to be one of the
sessions that's recorded, by the way?
I love that they're releasing the recordings for
everything.
No, I don't.
At the conference.
I don't think this was recorded.
I don't think so.
Ah, okay.

(28:21):
Maybe it was.
Take a step back, though.
I've been thinking about the whole video, audio
thing as well.
I'm an audio person.
I love listening to audio.
Listened to transistor radio when I was a
kid.
Like, there's something special about audio.
And I think where I am now is
that we just don't want to say that
like, hey, if you want to do video,

(28:41):
if you're good looking and you want to
do video, we shouldn't have to say like,
oh, sorry, can't do that.
It's only audio, right?
And we have all of the pieces, right?
It's not like we have to do the
work of how would we do this?
It's like, you guys did a ton of
work to say like, here's a great way
to say an alternate enclosure so we're not
breaking existing audio apps.
And then we have these feeds.

(29:02):
You know, Apple came up with HLS back
in, remember when they hated Flash, right?
They're like, we're not going to have Flash
on the iPhone.
So Flash was used for two things.
It was used for video and it was
used for interactive stuff.
And the web is actually fairly good now
at interactive stuff, but video was still something
they had to do.
So they came up with this HLS format

(29:22):
and it was using the very, you know,
high technology of Winamp playlists.
It's just basically a text file with, you
know, streams in there.
Yeah, and if you remember the Winamp stuff,
it's like, it's the same thing.
So what's cool about it is it's like,
we have the place to put it.
There's all these transcoders now that do it.
And in particular, like it works on a

(29:43):
wide variety of devices as well, right?
So it works on a TV just as
well as it works all the way down
to the phone.
And the client, it's like doing the work
of saying like, oh, I see that you're
kind of bandwidth constrained at this point, you
know, let me pick a smaller bandwidth there.
And the client is doing that.
So crucially the server companies, podcast hosting companies

(30:04):
are not doing, they don't have to stand
up a live, you know, real 65 server
or something on the backend.
Like they can just do what they're already
doing, which is do deals with CDNs and
like post static files.
And this is what they're doing already.
And from the client point of view, it
looks like magic, right?
You can scan to wherever you want, you

(30:24):
can go picture in picture, but it's all
running off of just really boring HTTP sort
of technology.
Hmm.
Yeah, I agree.
This, I think this can be, I think
this can be done for, I just think
they have to think outside the box a
little bit and think about, okay, the answer

(30:46):
to everything is not, let's add X more
number of compute notes to our AWS account.
You know, if you think outside that a
little bit, I mean, now at the scale
of YouTube, sure, you're going to have to
like, I think it's going to be incredibly
expensive, but for the limited amount, I mean,
let's be honest.
If you add a podcast option to your

(31:10):
hosting company, you're not, how much percentage of
your user base is actually going to use
that?
It's not going to be huge.
So you're already talking about a small.
What's the point?
If it's not going to be huge and
it doesn't compete with YouTube, what's the point?
Well, I think, no, I mean, now competing
with YouTube is a, that's a question.

(31:33):
That's what everyone's talking about.
Everyone, that's what everyone, oh, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube,
we got to do video.
Well, but yeah, but see, compete, quote, competing
with YouTube is, that has to be defined
because you can compete with somebody in multiple
ways.
If you mean competing with, or if they
mean competing with YouTube by being YouTube, by

(31:58):
doing the exact same things that they do
at that scale, that's, that's delusional, but I
don't, I hope that's not what they mean.
I think, you know, the way I would
define, I would say they can compete with
YouTube though, if you define it correctly.
And the competition is, have a legitimate place

(32:19):
to serve video to the mass consumer and
have it available on demand whenever it's needed.
I think that they can absolutely do that.
It just will not be at YouTube scale
in a, and I don't think they want

(32:39):
that though.
Okay, here's the problem I have.
And I like that we disagree because we
rarely disagree.
True.
So this is much better.
What I'm looking at here, the HLS podcast
radar at hls.livewire.io is actually very
interesting.

(32:59):
It's an interface that is interesting for video.
Your typical podcast app is not going to
be interesting for video.
So if we really want to compete on
a different level, we need different apps that
when video comes through or when video is
available, function in a different way.

(33:21):
I just don't think that, I mean, it's
two pieces or three pieces.
One, YouTube is free.
So you're going to be paying for something
to do this.
So that's already a large barrier.
Once you get over that hurdle, what is
the experience for the user?
YouTube has a lot going on in their
interface.

(33:42):
That's part of the appeal of YouTube.
In fact, the only appeal of YouTube, in
my opinion, is the discovery aspect.
That's why people want to be on YouTube
because they're getting recommended.
You trick the algos, you get popped up
to the top.
There's all kinds of stuff that happens.
It's not just about video.
By the way, if video truly had killed

(34:02):
audio, MTV would still be playing music videos
on the air today.
See, if we can already do all that
stuff that YouTube does, the problem is that
people don't look at their podcast app.
So if there's a reason for them to

(34:24):
look at their podcast app, all those things
that people have been dinging podcasting 2.0
features for, like, eh, nobody's going to use
this because nobody looks at their podcast app.
All of a sudden, those people are going
to be like, it's become viable features because
now customers or listeners will look at their
podcast app a little bit more like they

(34:45):
do their YouTube app, where they're now expecting
to sometimes be able to see things and
interact with them.
PeerTube is a perfect example of this.
PeerTube is probably serving, you can correct me
on this, John, but I bet PeerTube is
probably serving most of the HLS content through
podcasts right now.

(35:06):
That's right.
Most of those say PeerTube, for sure.
And they were very early, thanks to Alex's
plugin.
Alex, right.
Yeah, Alex did miracle work in creating the
alternate enclosure tag and then doing all of
the legwork to do pull requests up to

(35:26):
the PeerTube guys to get HLS video in
the alternate enclosure tag into RSS feeds.
If anybody wants to see exactly how to
do this the correct way, go find a
PeerTube instance, look at the way that they're
doing it with the alternate enclosure HLS.
That is the correct way to do this
spec.
This would be my recommendation.

(35:48):
To make this work really well, the first
person who comes out with a Roku app
or a smart TV app that understands video
enclosures will make an incredible impact.
That's a great point.
Yeah, that's a great point.

(36:09):
I just, I think this can be done
because the problem, see, the other problem with
YouTube is that YouTube, because of what it
is and the way that it works, has
tons of content that just would never make

(36:30):
any sense in a podcast app.
That's right.
It just wouldn't.
Which is good, because there's a signal to
noise ratio that is compelling.
I'm totally on board with that.
Yeah, like these PeerTube videos, these are perfect,
the ones I'm just scrolling through here on
HLS podcast radar.
These things, these videos are perfect for a

(36:52):
podcast app.
These make a lot of sense in a
podcast app.
And I see no reason why Apple wouldn't
just play these.
I don't think they would force everybody to
re-upload it.

(37:13):
And I think that it makes sense and
I think it can work.
I mean, all you need is a little
bit.
It would be more compelling if there was
more like general content, right?
Obviously, right?
So it's like, there's somewhat still the chicken
and egg.
We'll see how many people really want to
publish this stuff.
Hosts like Transistor, I think, will ease that

(37:33):
tremendously.
Those, and Fountain that does this.
I think making it as easy as possible
for people to just hit a button and
it goes everywhere, basically.
Including this, I think that'll, you remember back
in the early days of the iPod, right?
They were really touting, some of those shows
were really high production, right?
Some of those early video podcasts.
I was really surprised by that.

(37:54):
It's just a matter of like, hey, where
are people expecting to see this stuff?
And I listened to this really interesting podcast
recently from the head of ESPN.
And they're creating their own streaming service finally.
And they have an app.
And he was saying that like the people
younger than him basically, they don't really have
a problem like using an app, like going

(38:16):
to a particular app to watch a particular
thing.
You know, I kind of hate that, right?
But like, this is sort of a bridge
it's already been crossed because of exclusive deals
and stuff like that.
So if it's something that doesn't exist at
YouTube at all, that even wouldn't be a
problem.
Now I imagine like, you know, some content
is gonna, probably all content is gonna be
there and then some will be here as
well.
But it's just a matter of like the

(38:38):
option, right?
Just taking a step back, just saying like,
hey, we can't do this, right?
As a media hosting company, sorry, video is
something we don't do, have to go to
YouTube for that.
That's, I don't know, that's problematic.
I don't think it takes away from audio
in the slightest.
And I think people, just like they shouldn't
create bad audio, it's like, no one should
be forced to create bad video, right?
Like, that's not the idea here.

(38:59):
It's just an optionality sort of thing.
It's like, you have the option of also
doing this.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, this can work.
I like bad audio.
I like bad audio.
I do.
I'm serious.
I like- Well, I mean that in
a Jim Rome sense.
Or like, remember Jim Rome always had his
rules for callers was like, have a take

(39:20):
and don't suck.
So bad quality is fine, but it's like
bad, like uninteresting content is like bad audio.
Of course, yeah, all right.
And there's a lot of that.
Oh, there's a lot of that on YouTube
as well.
Yeah, that's, I mean, the percentage of like
quality, actual quality content on YouTube, and I
always define quality content as somebody somewhere actually

(39:45):
wants to watch it.
If that number is zero, then that's not
quality content or watch or listen.
And so that- Yeah, I mean, you
can make a personal judgment about the New
Heights interview with Taylor Swift, but a lot
of people wanted to watch that and watch
it live.
It actually almost took down YouTube for live

(40:05):
viewing.
So it's like, it may not be quote
unquote, maybe some people wouldn't consider it good
content, but it is, like you said, compelling
to someone to watch, right?
Someone wants to watch that.
Somebody somewhere, yeah.
Not me, but someone wants to watch.
No.
All right, let's talk about something else because
everyone talks about this.

(40:26):
Well, I think, well, I mean, everybody talks,
yeah, you're right, everybody talks about it, but
I mean, I think, I mean, this group
defined the specs that are going to be
used.
And I think we can, I think we
also have valuable, but I don't mind saying
that.
A lot of podcast hosting companies don't even

(40:46):
know what PeerTube is.
I mean, because this has always been the
struggle with Podcasting 2.0. Most of the
people in Podcasting 2.0 that are actually
writing specs and writing tags and that kind
of thing are fairly steeped in open source
technology.
That's where most of us came from.

(41:07):
We came from other open source projects.
Even James, you know, he was deeply involved
in open source projects, with things like OpenStreetMaps
and that kind of thing.
So a lot of us are just used
to, we're used to living in an open
source milieu, but the podcast hosting companies didn't

(41:31):
really have a lot of that.
You know, they were not familiar with a
lot of these things.
So I'm sure that there's some podcast hosting
companies out there that don't even know about
PeerTube and they don't even know that the
HLS aspect of PeerTube is fully functional today.
It's basically a roadmap for what they need
to do.

(41:51):
So I think we have a different perspective,
you know.
Conversely, most people in the Podcasting 2.0
group have no idea what it takes to
run a hosting company with customer service, people
who can barely hold a mouse, who want
help understanding, you know, it's a lot more
than just the technical side of it.

(42:11):
That's true, that's for sure.
Yeah, yep.
So, you know, and that's, you know, I
know that a lot of these companies have
20 people, not all full-time, but they
have 20 people, 24-7 on the help
desk.
And I used to work for Google and
like they do all these tech talks internally
and I would just go to all of

(42:31):
them because I'm curious.
And like one of them was about, and
this is very early on, about content detection,
right?
So like, and sort of like detecting horrible
stuff, like you kind of go a different
level when you do video, when you start
hosting video as a provider, then you do
an audio, right?
I mean, what's the worst that someone can
do in audio?
I mean, they could- Blaspheme?

(42:52):
Blaspheme?
Yeah, the- Satan.
But, you know, obviously it takes a lot
of people.
I mean, it literally takes people just like
sitting there and we're looking at the worst
kind of stuff.
And that is something that you would have
to think about as a video hoster.
So it's not, it's not, and it's an
order of magnitude more data, but it's also
an order of magnitude more of that kind

(43:14):
of stuff.
And takedown requests and legal issues across the
world.
It's just different.
That's, yes, good point.
Yeah, and you know, now you're talking about
having to run through CSAM filters and all
this.
It's a big deal.
And it's a lot easier now than it
used to be.
There's actually some, I've been looking into some
of the stuff and you can get some

(43:35):
off the shelf stuff to do it.
And there's some services that are fairly okay
to do it.
And remember, there's not a lot of the
stuff that would be published.
So I still think it's sort of at
a manageable level.
No one is saying like, Transistor is going
to be the next YouTube, right?
I don't think anyone's saying that.
It's just like, can we start publishing video
if the publishers want to do it?
And a lot of publishers want to kind

(43:56):
of own their own stack these days.
They want to be their own media company.
I think part of that is saying like,
if all else fails, if YouTube takes us
down, you know, like you can go to,
you know, myname.com and I have my
own little publishing world that includes newsletters, podcasts,
video, whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, if all it would take would

(44:18):
be a few big shows, you know, to
start publishing over it.
I mean, if Rogan started cross-publishing HLS
video through the podcast feed, that would, that'd
be huge.
What do you think that would cost?
You know, I don't, I don't know.
That's a good question.
Well, I know the terabyte costs are around

(44:39):
$20.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
You know, yeah.
You start pushing content, it gets pricey without,
you know, edge servers.
Because yeah, personally, I'm much more interested in
what will the small person do.
But you know, what, you know, I'm just

(45:00):
less interested in a big, big show coming.
Mm-hmm.
That's kind of always the default.
Well, if a really big show, if a
really big show starts using value for value,
it'll be there.
Nah, that's not how it works.
This has never worked that way.
It's a very, podcasting is always just a
very slow, slow growing, slow burn, five, 10%,

(45:23):
sometimes 10% a year, just inches up,
inches up, inches up.
It's never been a, oh, all of a
sudden.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm excited about it because it unlocks
content.
It's things that you would have never found
otherwise, right?
That's what I love about podcasts, right?
You kind of see, especially if you get
an app that's like showing you random stuff,
it's amazing what's out there.
A lot of the apps are actually not

(45:44):
that great at doing that.
They're like, subscribe to this NPR show, right?
But there's actually, if you just do a
random search, just like what's being published, you'll
find some really interesting stuff.
So I think apps could do a much
better job at, you know, the serendipity aspect
of like showing the kind of long tail
of stuff that is out there that will
be interesting to different people, right?

(46:08):
And let me clarify, when I say, because
I made a statement that the hosting companies
weren't like aware of a lot of open
source stuff.
What I mean, like a lot of them,
a lot of them are from their, they
use open source stuff.
That's not, that's not what I'm saying.
Like they use like Ruby on Rails is
really popular and with a lot of podcast

(46:29):
hosting, I think they, but using those things
and being involved in a specific project is
not the same as sort of like being
a FOSS person.
You know, like those people are all in
on all the, you know, ActivityPub, PeerTube, OwnCloud.

(46:50):
I mean, you have people who are just
sort of like all in on the open
source lifestyle.
And when you're in that world, you sort
of, you know, you see things in a,
you see a lot of things that are
otherwise hidden.
A lot of people just don't know about
some of those things.

(47:10):
So that's kind of what I meant.
So Nathan G, and I put it in
the show notes, just published or just gave
us a link, HLS costs.
And it's very eyeopening, what it costs.
I'm seeing here at bit rate, this may
be audio, I guess.
Bit rate, 96 kilobit per second, duration, 30

(47:32):
minutes, file size, 21 megabytes.
Does he have number of requests here?
Yeah, I've seen that spreadsheet.
It really, yeah, it's, there's a lot of
factors in it, right, like how many things
you're streaming and each bit is very, and
like you said, it's sort of an order
of magnitude less.
So I would really love to see kind
of some folks publish shows and then actually

(47:54):
get some real world numbers on these things,
because this is, honestly, this is what the
podcast hosts do, right?
This is their kind of value add in
the competitive market.
It's like, what kind of deals can we
strike with their various providers?
And how can we do some cool stuff
with FFA MPEG under the hood to make
it, because you can spend as much as
you want.
I mean, there's services that will basically do

(48:15):
the whole thing at this point and stream,
but you're paying per minute and it's kind
of expensive, but that might be okay if
all you're doing is doing a company's press
release or something like that.
But then if you're a podcast hosting company,
your bread and butter is like, how can
we do this in a clever way?
And not to give any secrets, but there
are ways to do this, right?
There are definitely ways to do this with
the pieces that are out there now.

(48:36):
I'm sorry, why won't you give away any
secrets?
This is the boardroom.
What's wrong with you?
Who are you working for?
Give us the secrets.
Working for myself.
Ah, this is, oh, there we go.
He's sitting in New Jersey.
He's got a eight gigabit, eight megabit connection.
He's going to be serving HLS video for
the world.
No, not from here.
No, no, no.
I'm on an Xfinity, like 20 meg up.

(48:59):
Xfinity is already my favorite term.
Xfinity.
Xfinity.
Xfinity, yes.
No, but it's like, it is, it's interesting.
And I think it's, I don't know, everyone's
videoed out and I'm kind of videoed out
as well to be, I actually don't watch
a lot of TV.
I don't know who's watching all these YouTube
videos, but it's.
I'm videoed out too.

(49:20):
I agree.
My video content consumption has just, continues to
steadily go down and down and down.
Yeah, there you have it.
I've gotten to where, I've gotten to where
the only thing I really watch on YouTube
is just how-to videos, if I need
to do something.
Russian dash cam crash videos.

(49:42):
That's the best.
Oh God.
That's the best.
My video watching is basically like my drinking.
It's basically just social situations.
That's about it.
Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
That, Spurlock, I wanted to ask you about,
about the SPC, the standard podcast consumption.

(50:02):
Oh, right, from the last conference.
That's the proposal that came out of the
last conference.
Yes, yes, yes.
I like that proposal a lot, by the
way.
I really like it.
It's very small, but yeah, what were you
interested in, Dave?
Well, I just- In getting it deployed,
getting people to use it is what I'm
interested in.
I think it's a great idea.

(50:23):
Well, I've got a ton of notes here,
but it may be, rather than me trying
to read this off, do you want to
give a thumbnail sketch of what it is?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So if you go to, I think the
easiest way to get to it now is
just livewire.io slash SPC.
There's a small blog post and then a

(50:43):
link to the nitty gritty, but it's really
a very small spec.
The idea is, hey, we're all in this
open ecosystem.
We have the players that are sometimes owned
differently than the server side.
And in order to compete with all the
other folks that are integrated, you kind of
need the information flow to go both ways,
right?
And so right now, apps can kind of

(51:05):
leech off of the content providers and say
like, hey, you're providing all this good stuff,
but they can't see what's going on in
the other direction.
All they get is downloads, which is basically
like, maybe I auto downloaded it, who knows?
So it would be great for all of
us to kind of say like, hey, I'm
an app and I know some cool stuff
about what's going on with your show that
I'm showing in my app.

(51:28):
Overcast has done this for the longest time.
So when they hit, they have to go
out and crawl RSS feeds on the server.
But instead of just passing an overcast.fm
as the user agent, he's like overcast.fm.
And by the way, your show has 25
subscribers in overcast just as part of the
string, as part of the user agent string.

(51:49):
It's a call they were gonna make anyway,
right?
It's a call he's gonna make anyway.
It's a call the server is gonna see
anyway.
So SPC is basically just taking that one
click forward.
It's the same idea.
But instead of like passing the numbers down
in the user agent, cause that could get
unwieldy.
It's just saying like, here's a URL.
You hit the secret URL.
You get all the information for this show

(52:11):
that I know about for my app.
And then what's cool about it is there's
no new tags, right?
There's no, even if you hate the podcast
namespace, podcasting 2.0, it's horrible.
Like there's nothing, no namespace requirements.
There's nothing that relies on servers.
It's calls that are already being made, but

(52:31):
it just exists kind of above that layer.
So in theory, there's really nothing that prevents
Apple or Overcast or anyone from doing this,
right?
This is something that anyone could do and
it doesn't require a handshake.
So you could start collecting this data as
an app and making those URLs available, but
maybe no one hits it right away.
And then it takes them a while, but

(52:52):
let me tell you, if you're on the
server and you're seeing these cool URLs coming
in and saying like, here's information about the
show that you're, you are gonna integrate that,
right?
You're gonna say, oh, this is great.
And so none of this requires meetings.
None of this requires authentication.
It's secret in the sense that private podcast
feeds are secret, right?
So they're just a URL that's unguessable.

(53:13):
And that's part of the spec on how
to create those.
But if the host wants to share those
with a larger, like an analytics service, they
can.
But by default, since it goes directly server
to server, even your analytics companies will not
see this, right?
So it's OP3, for example, won't see this
going back and forth.
So the podcaster is always in control of,

(53:33):
or whoever's hosting their podcast is in control
of what happens to this.
And so really the trick is like, what
is the payload?
What's interesting on the other end?
And when I was back in the, what
was it, the Evolutions Conference in Chicago, I
had a bunch of conversations about this.
And the thing that sort of surprised me
is like, if you had to stack rank,
like, what is the information you're not getting

(53:54):
now from these apps that you would ask
for in a standard way?
Number one was the retention graph.
So kind of like how far, you know,
it's great, like a play is great, but
like, how far did they get, right?
Like, where did they drop off?
It's kind of like that cool graph that
they'll show on OP3 for all the Adam
shows, right?
Where you can see who's streaming and where
it drops off.
I don't know if that's useful or not,

(54:15):
but I find it kind of interesting.
And it kind of like reinforces kind of
anecdotally what I would have thought.
It's the only stats I ever look at.
Yeah, it's kind of cool, isn't it?
Sort of saying like, it's more than just
like a download is a download.
It's like, oh, I see that when we
start this segment, people start to drop off,
that sort of thing.
And only the apps know this, right?
There's nothing that the server can tell just

(54:36):
from downloads coming in.
So this is one way for the app
to kind of make this available and make
this available at scale.
It's all static data, right?
So the app can kind of like recompute
this whenever it wants.
It doesn't have to do this in real
time, but it's kind of a nice, simple
way for apps to provide this data and
for servers to obtain it on behalf of

(54:56):
the podcasters.
Yeah, I was thinking that to start with,
apps could just give the basics.
They could just give like a follower account.
Exactly.
If they have it.
I mean, there's always gonna be some apps
that just don't even have this.
I mean, if they don't have a backend

(55:17):
or...
I mean, I'd love to give it from
the Godcaster because we stream episodes and I'd
love to add to that a report of
how many people just dumped into an episode
and streamed it.
And I'd like to get those numbers back
too, which is something they can't get at
all.
That's exactly why I got to thinking about

(55:39):
the SPC and talking to John is because
I was like, I was thinking the other
day, as I was doing some work on
Godcaster, I was like, we need to start
thinking about a way to give some stats
back and this actually makes some sense.
And we could be an app that pushes
how to do this.

(56:02):
We could start the ball rolling on this.
We already have a producer login.
We could add it right there.
That's a good idea.
Yeah, that's a great idea.
And it can be done incrementally.
So you don't have to add it to
all your shows.
You could start out with one or two
shows, right?
It's nothing that says you have to do
this for all the shows.
It's just like, as you do it, Apple
the same way, like if they wanted to

(56:23):
do it on some, but not others, it'd
be totally possible, right?
So it's all very loose, right?
The big thing that I guess we would
all need to agree on is like, it's
just a JSON document that comes back.
Like what are the standard fields in there?
Like what are people mostly interested in and
what is worth the trade-off of like
expensive for the app to compute, but also

(56:44):
it provides a lot of value to the
show.
And like you said, I like the idea
that it's almost like advertising.
It's saying like, hey, Godcaster is great because
it sends all this interesting stuff that you
weren't getting otherwise without a portal.
Yeah, because we don't have followers per se.
So in most of our stats, I mean,

(57:05):
we would on the podcast side because when
we publish our stuff back out to podcast
apps, you know, that's just goes out as
an RSS feed.
So we could probably, but then that goes,
that's into the hand of the app.
So we really don't have those numbers very
much, but we would have like total listen
time and things like that.
We could push that back out and that

(57:26):
would probably be really helpful.
I don't, some of the examples you have,
I don't really know what a histogram is.
So I don't think I could do that
cause I don't even know what it is.
I always scroll past that.
I'm like, all right, whatever that is, it's
pretty.
I mean, it looks pretty.
Dave, have you seen the graphs that we
have at OP3 for the value for money
shows?

(57:46):
So it's the live listen graph.
It'll show, it's just a bunch of bars,
right?
So it'll show like, now that one is
actually fairly detailed, but some of them are
just like- I can do a bunch
of bars if that's all it is.
I can just make a bunch of bars.
Yeah, it's just grouped into, some histograms are
very low resolution.
It's just like 25%, 50%, 7,500.
But that one is like, you know, it
got to this minute cause you can calculate

(58:08):
that, but just whatever.
It's like, you know, they're in the desert
here.
We got to give them some water, right?
It doesn't matter.
Just anything is better than what they have
now.
Even if you give back the listens, I
mean, they know what you're getting from a
download point of view.
So they can do that math on their
side and say like, oh, this many downloads
results in this many listeners.

(58:28):
Then they can take that ratio and apply
it else.
So it's super useful.
It's like signal, right?
It's a signal that they do not have
right now.
Yeah, so that would be a good way
to say, well, yeah, I like that idea.
Cause you're saying, here's total, I'm giving you
back total listen hours and I already know
what the downloads are.
And here's a correlation I can make.

(58:49):
And that correlation may be different for every,
it will be different for every single show.
You know, that's not going to be the
same.
It'll be different for every app too.
But listen, like I'm sure everyone knows the
math that happens in podcast world is not
as precise as, we're not launching rockets with
this math.
That's the George Bush fuzzy math is what

(59:11):
the podcasting uses, yeah.
No, I think we should do this.
Cause this falls under the category of things
that I think need to exist just so
that somebody else coming along later doesn't try

(59:32):
to reinvent a wheel that is going to
fall off.
This is the best proposal for a way
to do this that I have seen.
And I cannot think of a different way
to do this that would not be just
an immediate no.

(59:53):
I mean, everything, every proposal we've seen about
stuff like this has always been some different
version of rad.
Oh yeah, very complicated.
And I just don't think that's, I think
every one of those things are just going
to fall flat on their face.
This one actually seems doable.
So if we, but we just need somebody
to do it.
And I'm willing to put that work in.

(01:00:15):
It's worth saying like there is nothing listener
specific about this, right?
So all of these statistics are aggregate numbers,
right?
They're just like, there's nothing that would ever
be at the level of a listen in
these ads.
So in that case, it's not like-
Now, where do you stick this?
You just stick this in the header response?
In the request.
So as the app, when you're requesting the

(01:00:37):
no agenda feed, right?
So you're, it's just a HTTP request.
Instead of saying like, I'm coming from Godcaster,
you say, I'm coming from Godcaster and for
your show, hit this URL for it.
And then they can choose to do nothing
with it or hit the URL periodically to
see what's going on.
That's literally it, like it's so basic.
Everything else would complicate it, right?

(01:00:57):
And every time you introduce more complications, you
just lose people.
You're like, no, I'm not going to do
that.
Nope, I'm going to push this off.
So the idea here is to make it
as simple as possible.
I think the proper way to do this,
if you agree, is would really probably just
be push, compile, compile this response, this JSON

(01:01:19):
response, compile that into a document, stick it
in object storage, and then send that back
as the URL, the callback.
Exactly, so that would be the idea is
that you do this periodically every day, every
week, whatever, right?
And then on your time, we don't want
to bankrupt the apps here, but it's just
like, if they already have this, they can

(01:01:39):
go through for some shows and it could
be a threshold where you only do it
for shows above 100 downloads or something like
that.
So it's not like it has to be
everyone, but it could be a static, so
that was the idea, right?
There's nothing that's dynamic.
It could be, it doesn't take query parameters
like query by year, right?
And give me the minute by minute.

(01:01:59):
No, it's like, this is a static file.
And so it can be stored on object
storage or your CDN of choice.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, if you already have the stats,
why not?
You just need a server.
So like you said, it's like, it's not
gonna work for an app that's like purely
in the app store, but a lot of
the apps nowadays, and I know even the

(01:02:20):
ones that started out app only, they introduce
a server, right?
Because there's some good stuff that you have
to kind of have on a machine that
you control and that sort of thing.
So that's where this would live.
Now, sometimes they don't, sometimes apps don't have
a, they'll have a backend, they'll have a
server, but the server's not really doing this

(01:02:41):
type of stuff.
It's like Castamatic, you know, he's got a
server now, but it's mostly doing like pod
pings and stuff.
It's not doing this.
Right.
So that would be different.
The other, yeah, and the other thing I
think you just mentioned, did the other potential
barrier here is that nobody really wants to
be in the stats business.
You know, it's kind of a sucky business.

(01:03:04):
We should also probably address the elephant in
the room and it's the feedback I get
sometimes.
It's like, oh, this is valuable.
I can charge for this.
Give me half a cent for this, for
sure.
Yeah, right.
And to me, that is just like totally
missing the point.
It's like, this is information so that these
loose pieces, so that we can stay a

(01:03:26):
loose confederation, right?
If we don't pass this information back and
forth, then we're just not going to be
as interesting as a full stack, right?
We're never going to be able to compete.
And yes, I guess if if like Apple
podcasts wanted to charge, maybe.
I'm trying to think of like the largest
app that you would actually pay to get
this in a standard way, maybe.
But even then, I mean, this is not

(01:03:47):
rent money that we're making here, right?
This the job of an app is to
have something worth paying for, either from the
listeners or from the sponsors or advertisers.
Right.
Like it's not to like nickel and dime
you on the stats on the back end
for podcasters that don't have any money anyway.
Right.
So right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, but yeah, I agree.
We can just we can just give this

(01:04:08):
back.
And, you know, with the the apps may.
They may be resistant from the standpoint of
wanting to of not wanting to be in
the stats business.
You know, hey, we don't want it like
because the thing about stats that blows.
Is that it takes so much storage.

(01:04:32):
I mean, these the hosting companies, if you
know, if you see it, when you when
you see there or hear them talk about
their stats databases.
I mean, they're just terabytes of, you know,
gigantic databases that are just like so easy
to break.
And and it's it's a really bad business
to be in is the stats business.

(01:04:53):
So and if you get them wrong, you
know, like if suddenly you realize that you
were recording stats wrong, maybe you had a
bug in your stats collection that was calculating
something wrong for even a few days.
I mean, going back and fixing that is
really difficult.
I mean, if there's one thing about the
IAB that's positive is that they come in

(01:05:15):
and try to, you know, and give you
they give you as a hosting company a
reason to audit your stats and find out
if there are bugs.
Now, now the end result is fuzzy math
like we all like we all know, but
at least some it gives you a legit
reason to like really do some intense code

(01:05:35):
review for a while and check your stats
and make sure that you're not messing something
up.
But it's just a messy business.
And I'm sure some some apps are probably
just like, nah, we know we'll never want
to fool with this.
But if you have it, you might on
the on the hosting side, if you don't
want to do this, you can always use
OP three or get my OP.
How's that going, by the way?

(01:05:56):
How's that?
How how is OP three doing?
I love OP three.
And whenever someone asked me about something, I
I've been, oh, you can look over here
because we don't care about stats.
We just care about value.
I mean, I see I see the hits,
Adam.
I see.
I see who's looking at that.
I'm burning your late at night, baby.
I mean, but Dave's totally right.

(01:06:16):
And like OP three does about 17 million
podcast downloads a month at this point.
And I think there's about thirty three hundred
non music shows.
There's a ton of music shows as well.
But the non music, I think is about
thirty three hundred.
Wow.
And but it is it's not cheap.
Right.
So you can look at our costs.
You can go to OP three dot dev
slash costs.

(01:06:37):
I thought it would be given the nature
of this project.
I wanted to make sure that all of
our costs are fully out there in public
as well.
And I had to do some things once
it started growing and we started having larger
shows on board to like really cut off
the various filters that are provided.
You can you can save it all, but
it's you pay for it on coming back
out.
So slash costs with an S.

(01:06:59):
Yeah.
So OP three dot dev slash costs.
Yeah, it's not it's not opening for me.
I already broke your server.
Oh, here we go.
I got holy moly.
And so that I'm not hiding anything there.
So that's everything either 500 bucks a month.
And yeah, yeah.
So it's not it's not inexpensive.
Now, you could probably do this cheaper if

(01:07:21):
you had a secret server chomping away on
this.
But I'm running this all on public cloud
flare.
So like in theory, you can say you
can see if you wanted to.
You could trace every request back to like
where it's stored and you can see that
like no IPs are being lost.
But so it's a little more expensive than
otherwise might be.
But the upside is it never goes down.
So it's never been down for the I

(01:07:44):
think three years now that it's been running.
And it's yeah, people are coming on board
all the time.
A lot of agencies like it because they
can put it on all their shows and
get kind of an apples to apples comparison.
And did I mention it's free, right?
But why don't you have just you don't
have a an open value giving link?

(01:08:04):
You know, we did back in the day.
Oh, you mean like a little button there
that's like, give me a coffee sort of.
I won't give you a coffee.
I'll give you a gourmet.
But I can only buy sponsorships.
I want to support you.
Well, I do like the idea of kind
of a one time sort of payment.
I should get my act together on that.

(01:08:25):
So maybe right by the costs or something.
Yeah, I think I even the sponsorship links
are on GitHub, which is not ideal.
That's what I'm looking at.
Yeah.
But again, this is a free sort of
thing.
Like I do this with out of goodwill,
basically.
So I have to kind of limit the
time.
There's a lot of management that actually is
involved.
So like yesterday or two days ago, like
every year, La Liga, which is the Spanish

(01:08:47):
football sort of a.
Yeah.
League.
Yep.
They have these insane blocks, so they will
go to the orange and like all of
the Wi-Fi mobile providers in Spain and
be like, block these IPs during this time
period.
Wow.
When the football matches are live.
And now a lot of people run stuff

(01:09:07):
on these, you know, cloud services like Azure
and CloudFlare.
So they can pirate the signal and get
it anyway.
Yeah.
So all of these sites will like, you
know, stand up a quick CloudFlare thing to
do so that they are legitimate things that
need to be blocked.
But unfortunately, these IPs are shared.
Yeah.
So every time these blocks go into a
they do a network block and you're out.
GitHub goes down and GitHub uses CloudFlare for

(01:09:30):
this.
And unfortunately, OP3 sometimes is hit by this.
So and every I get emails every every
year at about this time, like, oh, it's
La Liga time.
And this actually CloudFlare is taking them to
court in Spain.
So it's a little better this year.
But anyways, I had to do a fire
drill a few days ago and upgrade.
I'm paying a little bit more now to
get into a different pool of IPs that

(01:09:51):
I think right now will will escape.
But it's really hit or miss.
CloudFlare was telling me that some of their
enterprise customers are affected, right?
They can't do anything about it, basically.
So it's really a region by region thing.
But anyways, that sort of stuff comes up.
But I spend, you know, a little bit
every day making sure that new shows are
onboarded and spam is taken out and that
sort of thing.
So it's but I really I love this

(01:10:14):
idea, right, that anyone can have stats.
It's not something that you need to pay
through the nose for.
And it's something I would use that's like
not going to sacrifice listener privacy, which is
actually a tough tradeoff.
And really, no one in their right mind
should do it.
But I could like I could kind of
see, you know, being a tech person, I
can see how to put that together.
So what are you doing these days, John?

(01:10:34):
What's the big plan?
What do you what do you I'm sure
it's all secret because, you know, you're still
a Silicon Valley kind of guy.
But we have an NDA for the whole
boardroom.
So you can feel free to talk.
We're good.
We're good.
We're good.
I am not a Silicon Valley type of
guy.
I just had to slip it in.
What are you working for?
Google in Cambridge.
So that was definitely not Silicon Valley.
That's true.

(01:10:54):
That's true.
Well, I've been working on a podcast app
for a while.
And I'm a you know, I work for
Android on Google.
And I love it.
You know, I think obviously most people listen
and and watch podcasts on their phone, on
their mobile devices.
So, you know, I've been working on an
app.
I don't want to ideally compete with all

(01:11:17):
the other cool apps that are out there.
Right.
So I don't want to be another like,
hey, this is overcast, but a little bit
better and doesn't crash and doesn't look horrible.
You know, it's like, yes, the world probably
needs one of those.
But I would hate to take away share
from those sorts of apps.
Right.
And so it's like I don't.
Yes, I could do that.
And I have actually an app that I
use that kind of does that.
But I kind of wanted to take a

(01:11:38):
step back and say, like, what could a
podcast app look like?
Right.
So this is like podcast app from the
future kind of thing.
And I did I do think I hit
on something that there's one thing that I,
again, ideally, like we just take stuff away
from YouTube and Spotify and not from the
others.
I did think I think I hit on
one thing that I could do as the

(01:11:58):
first like major feature of the app that
both of those do that no one else
does.
And then it kind of like is in
its own space.
Cool.
So I'm hoping to get it out this
year because, you know, they have the new
new OS cadence.
Yeah, I think it's coming.
The new phones are being announced on the
9th of September, but I probably won't be
ready for that.
But it's going to be it's going to

(01:12:20):
be a weird app.
Let's just put it that way.
You know me.
I like I like different weird apps with
an attitude.
That's what I've been waiting for.
So I anticipate that.
Let me ask you, since you did work
on the Android side.
Any insight?
I'm very, very sad, actually, because apparently Google
will no longer be supporting the AOSP hooks

(01:12:43):
on their pixel phones, which means graphene OS
is pretty much going to die.
From what I understand, I was already having
all kinds of problems texting people.
Yeah.
You got a real phone, brother.
I do.
I had to get an actual phone, which
sucks.
Yeah.
I mean, it's open source in theory, right?

(01:13:04):
Android, but it's kind of like backwards open
source.
So all the development is done internally at
Google.
Then every year they poop out, oh, here
it is.
Boom here.
And like they have an issue tracker.
But as I'm sure you know, like it's
the same sort of thing anywhere.
Like there's actually very few developers working on
Android.
And so they just are hit with this

(01:13:25):
fire hose of like, this doesn't work.
This doesn't work.
And so the the feedback from the AOSP
stuff.
I mean, that's the last on the list,
right?
Yeah.
Unless it comes from a partner or that
sort of thing.
So it's a very difficult position to to
do all of this.
And again, they do this out of their,
you know, those the goodness of their heart
or services.
Yes.
Well, no, I mean, but it's sort of
funded.

(01:13:45):
No one could do this if they didn't
have alternate sources.
Right.
So it's sort of like they're in a
weird position.
Well, I've gone full in on the Borg,
man.
I'm on a Galaxy Z seven flip.
Oh, really?
I thought you meant Apple.
All right.
Once we know, no, no, no, no, I,
I, I will not go to Apple.
Nope, nope, nope, nope.
It's funny.

(01:14:06):
Like, as soon as I quit Google, I
got an Apple phone and just to kind
of get familiar with that ecosystem.
So I've been on Apple ever since.
I like their I like their world.
I like their nice, comfortable world.
But well, enjoy that.
You need you need to have both.
You need to have both, especially for one
thing.
Don't you have to have like an Apple
device for testing?
Well, that's what Dave and Paul have.

(01:14:29):
We're for Tina.
Tina has a Apple and I'm constantly saying,
hey, babe, can I just install it?
Let me just put test flight on.
She's like, what are you doing to my
phone?
Yeah, don't worry.
It'll be fun.
Let me just kind of just put this
in your.
Can I just test out your car, play
in your car for a second?
I'm sitting in the garage.
She's like, you should you should at least
open the garage door when you have the
engine running.

(01:14:49):
You're going to die.
Tragedy struck today.
Podfather down to testing, beta testing a podcast,
died in the car.
The car play will kill you, though, so
I can confirm that.
The the thing about Android, though, is that
I was talking to Alex about this the
other day is that Android is has way

(01:15:11):
more like weird restrictions and bugs than iOS.
Goodness.
Yes, it does.
Well, just think about the position that they're
in, right?
Like Apple has they can work.
They can go knock on the door of
their hardware team and be like, yeah, this
isn't working.
Yeah, they got one house.
Yes, they have their like pixel devices, and
those are actually fairly new.

(01:15:31):
Like they used to have the Nexus devices.
And so those would actually work very well.
But and, you know, they you know, they
have they talk with Samsung and that sort
of thing.
But it's hard to make that is, I
don't know, as bug free as possible.
I got it.
It's just this.
Sorry.
Yeah, go ahead.
I was going to say the amount of
crap you go through with a brand new
Android phone, the amount of I mean, you've

(01:15:54):
got T-Mobile installing stuff.
You've got a Galaxy, Samsung installing all kinds
of stuff.
Now I'm using a vault warden, bit warden,
password manager, and every single time I don't
you want to use the don't you want
to use the Galaxy password manager?
You know, even though you've clearly said, no,
this is what I want.

(01:16:15):
I want to use this.
They keep popping it up.
Now, just all and then and also Gemini.
Hello, I'm Gemini.
I can fix your email like, no, go
away.
And it just keeps coming back like bad
Mexican food.
You know, it's just, oh, no, it's just
like TVs, right?
They're not making any money off the device.
It's all about the upsells after the fact.

(01:16:35):
Yeah, like at least they're not upselling you
on podcasts.
They used to also Samsung also used to
have a podcast thing where they say free
podcast.
Yeah, that's gone.
At least you're.
And it's actually interesting.
It's a great opportunity for Android podcast apps,
right?
There's really no equivalent of, you know, and
this is why YouTube is really taken off
is like that's always on the device.

(01:16:57):
Yeah.
Every device.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Now that dog catchers died, we there's nothing
left.
Dog catcher was what?
Who was it, Dave?
Early on, dog catcher.
If I recall correctly, we killed we broke.
We killed it.
Broke down.
We broke dog catcher because it did not
handle namespace.
Yeah, exactly.

(01:17:17):
We don't get this namespace and we'll correct.
No, it was it was it was a
very specific thing.
What I think it was transcripts was live.
And it was the live item tag.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
You threw the live item.
If if you throw a live item tag
in a channel, dog catcher just like barfed
its guts out and died.
And it was and it was really sad.

(01:17:37):
It was sad because because, you know, people
would email the developer and the developer would
email back and then copy me and say,
these guys are doing it wrong.
Oh, really?
You got that email?
Oh, I got several of them.
Yeah, that's that's the publisher.
Their feet is broken.
Like, oh, OK.
All right.

(01:17:58):
You can always have a soft spot in
my heart for dog catcher, though.
It's I got Android on day one and
they actually had a listen.
They called it listen.
I think it was part of the operating
system back in the day.
It was a great podcast player that shipped
with the old, really old looking Android day
one.
And then they went through all sort of,
you know, they had Google Music, Google Podcasts.

(01:18:19):
But it was just some, you know, someone
on the team really like listening to podcasts.
And I was like, hey, this is great.
Like, let's do this.
As I always say, as I always say,
it's always someone on the team down below
who's like, what is this thing?
Maybe I can add that in there.
I can just put this in here.
That's a keep publishing people keep publishing.
There's your show title.
Keep publishing.

(01:18:40):
Yeah, I'm looking for dog catcher on that
place.
Play Store.
And it's it's a gets a goner.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's still there.
I listen to Libsyn to get their stats
and it has, you know, about the same
number as Podverse, that sort of thing.
It's like they're always like neck and neck.
And I was like, who's going to win
this?
Really?
Yep.
Yep.
Because Podverse is my number two app for
no agenda.

(01:19:01):
Well, this is a cross on Libsyn shows,
so it's probably a sense of like, I
guess, and stuff.
But yeah, it's not on the Play Store.
It's not on the Play Store.
You must be people must be sideloading it
or something.
I don't know what that is.
Or there's not update right?
Android doesn't update.
So.
Huh.
This yeah, there's no there's you you can't
find it.

(01:19:21):
There must be like that would be an
interesting investigative reporting is to go and find
where these dog catcher downloads from Libsyn are
coming from.
How how are people downloading with dog catcher
when dog catcher hasn't existed on the Play
Store for three years?
Phantom.
Yeah.
I see some of those three.

(01:19:41):
So I'll do that.
Also, we'll see.
We'll see where they're coming from.
We need to track these people down.
I used to I remember when I had
my very first Android phone and I'm trying
to remember what I think it was.
Man, I can't remember what what phone that
was, but yeah, I had dog catcher and
it would immediately fill up the internal storage.

(01:20:02):
So I had to put an SD card
in it specifically for dog catcher.
Good times, baby.
Good times.
Very good times.
Hey, we're speaking of time.
We're at one twenty.
So, Dave, I don't know what your day
looks like.
I got a yeah, I got a hard
out pretty quick because I've got to.
Did you get the power back on at
the office?

(01:20:23):
Yeah, that's yeah, that was resolved.
Man, Transformer blew up right next to the
office.
And that's that's like the third time since
I've known you.
We're on an old like we're in an
office park area that was built like in
the 70s.
And all the buildings themselves have been refurbished

(01:20:43):
and are all very new and nice.
But the actual infrastructure for like.
So here's so here's something funny.
Like when our when our firm moved into
this building, the this building had sat empty
for quite a few years and it used
to be a bank.
And so then there was fiber coming through

(01:21:05):
that area.
And unbeknownst to all the contractors and everybody
who was working on renovating that building for
us to move into there, the fiber that
served all of the offices around that area
went through this one vacant building.

(01:21:25):
There was it was like a loop that
went through this building.
And so when the when the contractors came
in, they just saw all this all this
fiber and wiring hanging out of the wall
and they just ripped it all out.
And as soon as they as soon as
they cut it, boom, everybody was down for
like blocks.
So the fiber had been running through this
building and serving this wide area for so

(01:21:48):
long.
And it was this huge ordeal.
I mean, those didn't have anything to do
with us, but it's just this old infrastructure.
So there are a lot of the electrical
in that, you know, is like run underground
and so there's like, you know, some of
it's rotten and stuff.
Anyway, as we learned, as we learned with
the Godcaster app, a lot of people buy

(01:22:08):
competitors names in the app store.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
So guess who's bought sponsorship on dog catcher?
Oh, who?
Cast box.
Why not?
Why not?
You picking up the dog catcher people?
Yeah.

(01:22:29):
You spend some money on that.
No, but I got the kid, the kiln
guys coming.
So we have a kiln.
My wife, you know, she's an artist.
She does pottery and stuff.
Yeah.
That's what she's telling you.
Who knows what she's doing in that kiln?
I'm just drying out the weed, Dave.
Don't worry about it.
It's OK.
It's all good.

(01:22:51):
Yeah, we got a we got that guy
coming soon.
So I got a bail.
All right.
Let us thank a few people.
John, hang around if you can.
Be nice, because we did get some boost
during the show.
We got Martin Linda's Coke, who always for
some reason boosts twice.
Amazing always is 1776.
He says the long tail of indie podcasters,

(01:23:13):
freedom of expression.
Go podcasting, Adam.
Thanks for sharing your experience from the conference.
I like the debates between you, Dave, and
your guest, John Spurlock.
I'm not good looking, but maybe I will
start a video show doing a Western style
tea ceremony.
But I'd watch that.
All the best.
Martin, author of a tea book, sketches, ideas

(01:23:34):
and notions about the second most popular beverage
in the world.
P.S. Ombudsman is a Swedish word.
OK.
Triple five from Salty Crayon, which is a
swan boost.
Audio is king and so is key sent.
Go podcasting.
Yeah, Sam Sethi checks in with seven, seven,
seven.

(01:23:55):
And wouldn't you know it?
True fan supports peer to HLS via the
Alt enclosure.
Here's an example.
Yes, of course.
Of course it does.
That's Sam is whatever we talk about.
Sam implements.
I love that.
Anonymous was triple eights.
We've got Eric PP with three, three, three
with a pew pew.

(01:24:15):
Dreb Scott, one, two, three, four with a
pre-show boost.
And T.J. the raffle with triple seven.
And I hit the delimiter.
See, we get these are not sorted.
So I'm going to go through here.
So we got Jesse Anderson.
This is a paper, some PayPal's Jesse, Jesse
Anderson, 15 bucks.
That's a one off.
Thank you, Jesse.

(01:24:36):
Appreciate it.
And there's no note on that.
But Silicon Florist, 10 bucks.
Thank you, Silicon Florist.
Timothy Voice, ten dollars.
Oh, look at this.
The boys from Buzzsprout, one thousand dollars.
Holy moly!
Bam!
Shot caller, 20 inch blades on the Impala.
Keeping it alive, boys.
Thank you so much.

(01:24:56):
Thank between Buzzsprout, RSS.com, Blueberry.
You guys really, really make a difference.
Fountain.
Yes.
Appreciate you.
Appreciate you all so much.
Thank you, Buzzsprout.
Did you talk to Kevin and Tom?
How are they?
Briefly, briefly.
I really didn't have the time I wanted

(01:25:17):
to spend with him.
It was I mean, it was insane.
It's insane, the old man.
Like everyone's pulling at me, you know, like,
oh, come over here.
Let me take a selfie, selfie, selfie.
We're going to do a selfie, selfie.
Oystein Berra, five bucks.
Michael Goggin, five bucks.
Thank you, Michael.
Christopher Reamer, ten dollars.
James Sullivan, ten dollars.

(01:25:38):
Cone Glotzbach, five bucks.
And that's that's our PayPal.
Thank you all very much.
Thank you.
We need to have Tom and Kevin back
on.
I don't even know what they're doing.
And I've completely lost track.
You know, you know what?
In the PSP circle.
They were all that, you know, like, well,
what are you guys going to do?

(01:25:59):
We're doing stuff.
They're very secretive, very secretive.
We're we're we're doing stuff.
You know, don't don't love podcast.
Yeah.
Don't worry about us.
We're doing stuff.
Sorry.
Just upload to our pod roll.
Upload to our pod roll.
Upload to our Buzzsprout Connect.
Yeah.
By the way, wasn't there some fracas over

(01:26:22):
pod roll?
A fracas?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Here's what I think.
If you want there to be, there is.
Here's what I think happened.
Not what I think happened is Lipson.
I think they bought a company.
No, they're just called Podroll.
Yes.
So Podroll.fm was started in 2022.
I met the guy or the tech guy

(01:26:43):
that's part of it.
He went to one of the conferences and
then that term was in the air.
And then Kevin, if you know, next month
was like, hey, I have this great idea
called, you know, for a new tag called
Podroll.
It's a different idea.
You know, Podroll.fm is kind of the
feed drop sort of thing.
It's like, we'll take over your RSS feed
and insert stuff.
So it's kind of a different concept.
But if you look at the Lipson, what

(01:27:04):
they did is what they are.
You know, they integrate, right?
They don't develop, you know, do a lot
of development.
They integrate with and make the other person
do the integration.
But that's that's basically what it is.
So they didn't acquire them.
They're just like making it easy for podcasters
to basically like integrate Podroll on Lipson.
Right.
But the problem is.
It's got nothing to do with podcasting.

(01:27:25):
Exactly.
It's a naming issue.
Yeah, that's what.
Oh, well, Lipson can say that they support
Podroll now.
Is that what we're saying?
But the craziness of this service.
I'll put them on the apps list.
The craziness of this service is that you
basically sell an episode in your feed to
somebody else.
Which this is a that's crazy.

(01:27:48):
When if I'm subscribed to a show and
somebody and somebody does a feed drop, I
will unsubscribe from that show.
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
That is the that is the worst rude
thing.
Like I used to I used to listen
to Club Random, the Bill Maher podcast all
the time.
Yeah.
And he started he started feed dropping some

(01:28:10):
other show in there.
It happened like twice.
Wow.
And I was done.
I just unsubscribed.
I was like, no, I'm out of this.
Unless they that just makes people mixing in
like, OK, like, you know, they have the
original podcaster mixing in like, oh, you know,
check out this part.
And it's like but they don't do that
a lot of times.
It's just like, boom, here's another episode.
Just drop right in.
A lot of the NPR shows now will

(01:28:31):
at the end.
So it'll like the show will be done,
but then they will include in the same
episode, like eight minutes of another show.
And I like the idea of that.
I mean, it's easy to skip out.
But if if there was more metadata around
that, I think that'd be nice because I'm
sure it doesn't work that well.
Right.
It's just more of a word of mouth
sort of thing.
And it's not at the beginning.
Yeah.

(01:28:52):
As a listener, I'm with you guys.
I hate those.
Yeah, it's just like, why would you why
would you sell your your listeners that way?
It just seems short sighted to me.
But I'm sure it's apparently very high CPO.
Now you can do it on Lipson's.
Yeah.
Piss off your listeners on Lipson.
Whoo.
There we go.

(01:29:12):
Salty Crayon, thirty three thousand three hundred and
thirty three cents.
I'm going to hit a ball.
That was nice.
A 20 inch blade on the Impala.
Nice, nice booster gram.
Thank you.
Curio Castor.
It says, Howdy Dave and Adam.
Just want to say a huge thanks for
all you've done to build and built with
everyone for podcasting 2.0 and the music.

(01:29:32):
I think the remaining ones of us music
podcasters can confidently carry the banner of V4V
music when you all move on to full
on God casting like Hello Fred.
It's been full of scissors and we're happy
to keep running with them.
Five by five in the pipe.
I don't think we're going anywhere.
Nobody's moving on.
Yeah, I think we're good.
I think we're good.

(01:29:52):
It just adds to the pile.
Yes, it does.
Let's see.
Oh, let's see.
This is oh, this is last year.
Martin Lindis got the true fans 1776.
Adam, best premises with your fire chat at
the podcast movement conference.
I asked Rocky Thomas on LinkedIn if it
would be possible to listen to your conversation
on a new modern podcast app.

(01:30:14):
She replied, quote, Working on it.
We'll let you know, unquote.
I will do an episode on podcast events
on my new podcast.
Swing that gig.
We planned an unconference potluck conference in in
Gutenberg some time ago, but the pandemic came
along and it was not possible to arrange
it.
Bummer.
Let's see.

(01:30:36):
And we got a few of those.
Here's the delineator.
Comedy blogger 13320 through fountain.
Howdy, Dave and Adam.
Yesterday on no agenda, Adam mentioned a certain
PayPal co-founder and his transhumanism.
Well, race for immortality is one of the

(01:30:58):
main topics of the best science fiction TV
show of 2025.
Alien Earth that I hereby recommend today.
It's available on Hulu and Disney Plus.
It's an epic sci fi.
Alien Earth is set in the year 2120
and tells a story of synths, cyborgs and

(01:31:18):
body horror aliens.
Too scary for ladies.
So watch alone or with your man friends.
Yo, CSB, with your man friends.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I think I think CSB may have been
drinking because there was a lot of misspelling
in that.
Yeah, it happens.

(01:31:38):
Oh, the Mary Oscar, Mary.
Oh, send us 2000 sets through fountain.
He said, thank you.
Thank you, Dave, for all the hard work
on fixing this issue.
I think he means the soundbites issue.
Oh, yes, it was quite an issue, Oscar.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Oh, thank you.
By the way, on that same note, John,
what?
Do you I think the jump in transcripts

(01:31:59):
might be Spreaker.
Oh, OK.
I didn't take the time to actually look
into it.
So that's great.
If they're producing more transcripts, that's awesome.
What made you identify them?
Because I look I just reverse sorted that
table just to see what the you know,
to see if there was like an obvious

(01:32:21):
trend of one host over the other, like
with the most when the most recent transcripts
are coming in.
And I see like an overwhelming number of
Spreaker.
And I don't think they were producing it
in that volume before.
Oh, that's great.
I'm just taking a look here to see
it's still like they're still taking off.
And Spreaker produces a ton of shows.

(01:32:42):
So if they're auto transcribing, that would definitely
be very nice.
Did we know that?
I don't think we knew that they were
doing transcripts, did we?
The royal we here.
Yes, yes, we.
Yes, we.
I don't remember.
Did they put out some sort of announcement?

(01:33:02):
Because I don't remember that.
So I think this must be something that
they just flip the switch on.
Well, we love that.
This is good news.
Good news, everybody.
Yeah, they have good guys over there.
They they're.
Yeah, yeah.
They were there at the conference as well.
Did you talk to them, Adam?
I I'm sure I only took selfies with
them.

(01:33:22):
No, I wish I wish I had.
It was it was tough.
Everyone's walking around doing stuff.
You know, it's just it's tough.
It's hard being me, John.
Hard being me.
Celebrity life.
No, please.
Well, thank you very much, John, for being
here.
We appreciate you.
Appreciate all you're doing for for podcasting, for
podcasting 2.0. Put no I subscribed.

(01:33:43):
I got on your subscription here to help
out with OP3.
Appreciate it.
No, I appreciate you, man.
This is I realize like you're not shoving
it in my face enough.
Remember, the number one reason people don't give
you money is because you didn't ask for
it.
So you got to you got to be
a little more assertive.
Put a big button there like we have
on podcast index that or get the bottom
of that page, a big red donate button.

(01:34:05):
People can send their fiat fund coupons and
PayPal to us.
And it's really appreciated.
And well, we'll have to have you on
again.
Of course, we will.
When when I'm looking forward to your app,
I'm very excited about that.
Yeah, nice, nice.
Yeah.
Believe me, once that's out, you're going to
get hit in the face with that.
Everyone's going to hear about that.

(01:34:25):
Cool.
All right, brother.
Dave, have have a good time with your
kiln.
You can kill things.
I don't this thing is a three phase
and it needs to be rewired for single
phase.
It's so far beyond my electrical.
Just stay away.
Stay far away when the guy come our
way.
Do that.
Exactly.
All right, everybody.
Thank you very much.
Boardroom for being here.

(01:34:47):
We will return, of course, next Friday for
another board meeting of podcasting 2.0. You

(01:35:08):
hope you have been listening to podcasting 2
.0. Visit podcast index dot org for more
information.
Go podcasting.
I like bad audio.

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