Episode 240: Open Source = People!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for October 31st, 2025, episode
240.
Open source is people.
Hey everybody, it's that spooky time of year
which means time for another board meeting.
That's all we really do here.
It's time to talk about podcasting.
Everything that's been going on in our world
and yours and in the world of podcasting.

(00:22):
We are the board meeting.
In fact, this board meeting is the only
board room that doesn't require age verification.
I'm Adam Curry, here in the heart of
the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the
only man who can never be included in
a reduction in force.
Say hello to my friend on the other
end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.

(00:44):
I am the riff, I am the reduction,
I am force reduction.
That is the definition of Dave, force reduction.
Force reduction, yes.
No, we cannot riff you.
You are un-riffable.
Un-riffable?
You are un-riffable, yes.
We can get rid of everybody, but we
can't get rid of you.
Un-riffable, we say, un-riffable.
Everybody's expendable.

(01:08):
I'm not so sure about that.
I'm not saying it won't hurt.
It may hurt bad.
It may sting.
But everybody's expendable.
It may sting a little bit, just a
little bit.
Yeah, brother, I was so blown away.
Why?
Because all of a sudden I get a
message and you've sent clips.

(01:29):
It's been a long time.
I don't think you've sent clips in, well,
I don't think we've had clips in a
long, long time.
Weeks, weeks, I'll tell you.
Yeah, so do you want to get to
your clips or what do you want to
do first?
I'm always excited.
You got clips, clips, clips, and they're biblical.
Wait, did I send you the right clips?

(01:50):
No, you sent me Solomon one through four,
so I'm like, okay.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Let's see, I need to actually get the
clips on this machine.
I sent them from a different machine.
Where are they?
Because it would be bad if I can't
even tell what my clips are.

(02:12):
Well, I'm going to think this is John
Solomon, maybe.
I'm just guessing.
Negatory.
It's not John Solomon.
It gets more interesting by the moment, everybody.
This is David Solomon.
Pew!
Wow, okay.
Good timing.
This is David Solomon, who is the CEO

(02:33):
of Goldman Sachs.
Oh, okay, a douchebag, basically.
Yeah, yeah.
So, apologies that this is a little bit
maybe out of order, because I'm going to
have to, like, the way I number these
really didn't, end up being the correct order.

(02:54):
Like, the best order, the most ideal order.
Yeah, no problem.
You just tell me what number you want.
I mean, I'm a full-service production guy
here.
Well, so I get this Bloomberg News newsletter.
Yeah.
I don't know how I got on this
thing.
I mean, like, you just, you know.
The question is, how do you get off
of it?
That's the question.
Yeah, you sniff in the right, when you're

(03:16):
turned in the right direction out on the
street one day, and suddenly you're on the
Bloomberg newsletter email list.
I got you.
And this thing is hilarious most of the
time, because it's like, you know, it's this
eloquent sort of synthesis of economic language, TDS,

(03:43):
and just complete hogwash.
Like, it's funny.
It makes it funny to read.
Like, I enjoy reading it just to see
what they're going to say.
But, so the most recent thing is they
blamed the nearly $40 trillion in U.S.

(04:03):
debt on the one big, beautiful bill.
Yes, yeah.
Which happened like, you know, three months ago.
But hold on, hold on, Dave.
We're going to grow ourselves out of it.
Don't you know that by now?
Stable coin and GDP.
We're going to grow ourselves out of it.
That's the plan.
Nevermind the 40 years of debt-fueled expansion.

(04:26):
Don't look at that.
Oh, I won't.
No.
Through every administration, you know, left, right, and
center.
Don't look at that.
Just look at the most recent thing that
just passed your newsfeed.
That's the knowledge.
Yes.
But, so, this guy, David Solomon, David Dave,

(04:47):
from CEO of Goldman Sachs.
Well, it's important to remember, Goldman Sachs is,
Goldman Sachs, along with J.P. Morgan, and
I think about three other banks.
Citibank, somebody else is in that mix.
I can't remember.
There's just a handful.

(05:09):
This is the good old Boeing network.
J.P. Morgan, J.P. Morgan Chase, Citibank,
Bank of America, Goldman, and then you get
into, yeah.
I don't think, what I'm talking about is
these guys are primary money dealers.
Oh, oh.
Which is a, yeah.
Yes.
And then you have a designation.
Yeah, the guys who got wiped out in

(05:32):
9-11.
Yes, these are.
Those guys.
These are, so, yeah, a primary dealer in
FedSpeak is somebody who can print money.
It's a bank, it's a regular bank, but
they can print money.
Yes.
They can essentially, they can issue treasuries.
They can do open market operations on their

(05:55):
own without having to go through the Fed.
And so, that's what, it's important to remember
that Goldman is one of the few christened
money dealers in the U.S. system.
And so, when he talks, I mean, he's
talking as somebody who has the ability to

(06:15):
do these things.
So, he's being asked about, he's being asked
about the U.S. debt when he's talking
about, this is Solomon One, the growth question.
Okay.
Well, in New York, they wouldn't sell, they

(06:37):
wouldn't be buying treasury securities.
It was such a big problem because it
wouldn't be a good investment.
And then the people in New York say,
well, the people in Washington must know what
they're doing.
If they're borrowing this money, they must know
how to figure out how to pay it.
So, what is the story?
Why is the business community not worried about,
as a general rule, they don't seem to
be as worried about the 38 trillion as
I would have thought they would be?
Well, I speak to a lot of people

(06:57):
in the business community, a lot of people
in the financial community, and I think people
are worried about the level of debt.
And the fact that we've reached a point,
and by the way, this is true in
the United States, but it's true in every
developed economy where kind of fiscal stimulus and
an aggressive fiscal play is really just kind
of embedded in the way these democratic economies
are operating.

(07:18):
And it's accelerated meaningfully in the last five
years.
I think the pandemic played an accelerating role
and it doesn't seem like we have an
ability to pull it back.
And so, we've taken the debt in the
last 15 plus years, kind of since the
financial crisis, from 7 trillion to 38 trillion,
and just refinancing it for the rest of

(07:39):
the decade.
What's got to be refinanced, if you look
at current rates, is going to grow it
into the low 40s, for sure.
And we're growing our spending at a reasonable
rate still.
And so, this is an issue we have
to wrestle with.
Now, the path out really isn't a revenue
path out, the path out is a growth
path.

(07:59):
And if you think about it, the difference,
trend growth is 2%.
The difference between compounding growth at 3%
and 2% is monstrous in terms of
dealing with this issue.
So, there's a lot of discussion about running
a real growth play.
I think we have some things that are
going on that give us a better opportunity
to have a higher growth trajectory, particularly.

(08:22):
So, actually, there's 25 money guys.
It does include Bank of America, Cantor Fitzgerald,
that's who I was thinking of, Deutsche, Goldman,
HSBC, JPMorgan, Morgan, et cetera.
I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think
there's an FRBNY designation that gives you the

(08:46):
ability to do actual direct open market operations.
I think those guys can do, they can
essentially print money, print dollars, but I don't
think they can issue treasuries, which is what
Goldman and them can do.
I think that's a very select few.
But I do know that Cantor Fitzgerald can
do that, and that's kind of controversial because

(09:08):
our Commerce Secretary is the CEO of Cantor
Fitzgerald.
Of course he is.
Minor point, minor point, minor point.
What was interesting there towards the end, there's
a couple things about this that piqued my
interest.
Number one, there towards the end, he said,
there's a lot of, I forgot the exact

(09:30):
language he used, but he said, there's a
lot of talk about doing a growth play.
Yes, that's- Can you play the very
end of that?
Oh, yeah.
Again.
Sure, hold on a second.
Yeah.
I don't know where it starts, but like
- It's around here.
At a reasonable rate still, and so this
is an issue we have to wrestle with.
Now, the path out really isn't a revenue

(09:52):
path out, the path out is a growth
path.
And if you think about it, the difference,
trend growth is 2%.
The difference between compounding growth at 3%
and 2% is monstrous in terms of
dealing with this issue.
So there's a lot of discussion about running
a real growth play.
I think we have some things that are
going on.
He says there's a lot of discussion about

(10:13):
running a real growth play.
Yes.
That sounds like, almost like- Football?
42, grow!
That sounds almost like he's having like sort
of side discussions.
This sounds like a private discussion that he's
had with other people that come, that kind

(10:35):
of leaked into his answer to this thing.
This is the way he works.
It's almost like it's not, because have you
heard of anybody- Yes, actually I have
heard about this.
Yes.
And I heard about this on This Week
in Bitcoin.
Oh, okay.
A few weeks back, actually.
And Chris was talking about this.

(10:55):
And so I think our growth rate is
3.2, which is indeed monstrous compared to
two.
And part of that is tariffs coming in.
Part of it is reduction in spending and
some other magic.
But that was always the idea was, because
you go from two to three, that's huge.

(11:17):
That is big, compounded.
So how, he's saying, he said there's a
lot of ways, there's ways we can do
that.
And this is a podcast about podcasting.
We're getting there.
I'm weaving, I'm doing the weaving.
Take it easy, CBrooklyn1112, simmer down, simmer down.

(11:38):
Yeah, this is not DHM plug.
So he's like, how are we going to
do?
We've got ways of generating this growth.
So Solomon too, and he gives the answer.
Do you want to take a crack at
what you think it is?
What's the question again?
How are we going to do this?
How are we going to get that two
to three?

(11:59):
How are we going to go from two
to 3% growth so that we can
get ourselves out of the bad debt trap?
Somehow it's going to come down to printing
even more money, I think.
Let him talk.
You know, technology, AI, getting embedded into the
enterprise, the productivity opportunity from that.
Oh, we're screwed.

(12:20):
AI.
Productivity from AI.
Well, yeah, of course.
And it actually, there's something to be said
for that for as long as you can
keep it running, because what we're doing is
we're soaking up all the money into this
circular AI economy where just everything is being
sent to the next guy and eventually comes

(12:41):
back to NVIDIA.
And then it goes out again.
It goes even up.
I mean, even that new humanoid robot thing
that everyone was looking at.
Oh yeah.
Neo, Neo, the stupid robot with an anonymous
Indian controlling it from Bangladesh.
It's Amazon, walk in, grab your grocery, 2

(13:02):
.0. $129 million, both rounds led by open
AI.
I mean, come on.
It's like the money is just circulating.
Yeah, sure.
So, okay.
Well, that's very risky.
And somehow every time it hops from around
the circle, from one company to the next,
everybody gets to record the prior, everybody gets

(13:22):
to record this as an investment, as an
asset and not a liability.
You know, that's the beauty of it.
Yeah, of course.
Magical accounting.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
But so the answer is AI.
That's, what's going to give us the productivity
in order to grow out of this, grow
out of the problem.
Wow.
And so, but some also happened to be

(13:46):
listening to at the same time, that's why
all this stuff sort of piqued my interest
at the same time.
So I happened to be listening to an
old talk by Milton Friedman from 1978, a
speech he gave.
And now I'm not a Milton Friedman fan.
I mean, the Chicago School of Economics, I

(14:07):
think is just kind of like mid, but
at the same, you know, I'm more, I
would probably be more of an Austrian, but
his theory of, or his explanations of, that
inflation only comes, inflation is anywhere and everywhere

(14:28):
a monetary phenomenon.
That is just accepted gospel now.
I mean, it's a provable fact that that
is the case.
So regardless of his other, you know, of
his other aspects of his economics, that aspect
is legitimate.
And he happened to be talking, he gave
a talk on inflation and he mentioned this

(14:49):
issue of productivity and growing your way out
of an inflationary trap in Milton Friedman one.
The second argument that will be made, you've
left out of this picture productivity.
In those charts, what was it that I
connected with prices?
It was not simply the quantity of money.
It was a quantity of money per unit

(15:10):
of output.
And it's true.
Anything that increases output will tend to hold
down prices.
And so it's very common for people to
say, well, the real source of inflation is
that our productivity has not been increasing as
much as it should.
Or to say that the real cure for

(15:31):
inflation is to increase productivity.
Now, productivity is an enormously important phenomenon from
the point of view of our standard of
life, of how well we live.
There's nothing that's more important.
If we can get a rate of real
growth of 3% instead of 2%, that

(15:52):
will make a great difference over a period
of time.
And I don't doubt that one of our
national problems is a fall off in the
growth and productivity.
But from the point of view of inflation,
it's the wrong order of magnitude.
It would be a tremendous achievement to raise
the average rate of growth of real output

(16:13):
in this country from 3% a year
to 4% a year.
That would be a 33 1⁄3% increase.
It would be a dramatic change.
But it would reduce the rate of inflation
by one percentage point a year.
And from that point of view, the possible
variations in the quantity of money are much

(16:33):
greater than the variations in output and productivity.
So from the point of view of inflation,
productivity is very much of a bid actor
on the stage.
The lead, the hero or the villain, as
you wish it, is not productivity, but what
happens to the quantity of money.

(16:56):
Oh, he kind of screwed me at the
end.
Why?
Well, he says it's not productivity, but it's
the quantity of money.
Right.
Because I was gonna say that when it
comes to productivity, first of all, restarting manufacturing
in America, even if it's just rare earth,
any kind of manufacturing that increases our own

(17:16):
productivity.
On the other hand, I'll say that even
though they're losing money on me, that my
vibe coding has indeed increased the output of
productivity because I only have one Dave Jones,
he's working on something else.
I am being productive in ways I couldn't
have been before regardless of whether it's costing
Elon Musk way more than I'm paying him,

(17:39):
which is currently nothing.
Right.
But for every one Adam Curry, there's 14
,000 developers laid off at Amazon.
Well, but they can all get a sandwich
here at my house.
See, it's like there's- And they weren't
developers, they were supposed to be administrative.

(18:00):
Well, there's a lot of engineers getting laid
off.
This seems to be hitting Twitch particularly hard
and a lot of developers, a lot of
engineers.
This is, the Amazon's, this is particularly like
the Amazon Twitch and game development side seems

(18:21):
to be drastically affected by this latest thing.
And this, and I don't know if you
saw YouTube, YouTube, their announcement that they were
going to be laying off.
They're doing, well, actually they're, let me quote
it accurately, they're doing buyouts.
Yes.

(18:42):
And a reorg.
And so they're wanting voluntary buyouts.
And so this is what, and the letter
that YouTube CEO put out, I don't know
if we've seen numbers like this before from
them.
He mentioned something in there.

(19:04):
And clearly these things don't get, I mean,
these things are leaked.
They're not, you know, please, they don't get
out without, they're carefully worded so that they
know they're going to get out.
But the CEO of YouTube says, you know,
in this letter, he says, he starts talking
about all their awesomeness.
And then he says, we've built a subscription

(19:26):
engine with over 125 million monthly paid subscriptions
and 8 million YouTube TV subscribers.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm
not, I didn't, I wasn't sure if we've
ever seen that 125 million subscriber number for
YouTube.

(19:49):
I mean, it sounds like, I think I've
heard number, maybe not.
Okay.
Yeah, somebody will tell me if I'm wrong.
Hold on a second, 125 million times, what
is it?
It's like 14 bucks a month.
14.
Yeah, so about.

(20:09):
That is.
Be generous and say 2 billion a month
in revenue.
Well, 1.75. Yeah, but there's family memberships
in there too and stuff that are a
little bit more.
So let's, yeah, you could probably round it
up to two.
2 billion and then eight, how many YouTube
TV?
YouTube TV is 8 million.

(20:31):
8 million and that's time, but there's a
huge cost associated with that.
Yeah, that's probably very low margin, I would
imagine.
Yeah, in fact, they just threw off ESPN
and all Disney stations because they couldn't get
to an agreement on the carriage fee.
Oh really?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, so that's 24 billion a year in

(20:52):
revenue from subscribers.
You know.
Yeah.
Let's say that, let's say, and so Spotify,
we know those numbers, 88% of their
total revenue comes from subscribers, only 12%, or
it's actually less than 12%, it's like 11
and a half percent.
It comes from advertising.
It comes from advertising.
So let's just say that maybe that's similar

(21:15):
at YouTube.
That means they're doing 300 million in ad
revenue a month.
That's nothing.
On the grand scale, no.
At their scale, at their size, that's very
little.
And so, I mean, I think if you
sort of back your way into these numbers,
that really makes you question, you know, whether

(21:38):
they're profitable, number one.
And- As a separate business unit, you
mean?
Yes, as a standalone unit, yeah.
And, you know, that's all revenue.
That's not income.
I mean, you know, that's- That's not
profit.
That's not profit.
Yeah, that's not profit.
So, you know, YouTube doing a reorganization and
asking for buyouts and that kind of thing,
that's, this is all, you know, this is

(22:02):
all pointing to, they're going to be using
AI as the excuse, the enhanced productivity of
AI.
Yeah, that's clear.
Yeah, across the board for all of these
things, that's what you're going to hear that
time after, that's what's going to be said
for everything.
But, you know, really the issue is a

(22:24):
overall slowdown in government spending.
Yes.
Government spending is decaying.
Decelerating.
Is decelerating, and that is the only, that
deflation coming from government spending, that deflation is

(22:46):
starting to hit everybody.
Because the only way you keep this whole
machine running is by staying in front of
inflation by outprinting it.
And that's, you know, and David Solomon says
as much in number three about who pays.
Number three.
Okay.

(23:07):
But if we continue on the current course
and we don't take the growth level up,
we will, there will be a reckoning in
this.
And the bottom line is we have to
find people, you know, to buy and finance
our debt.
And, you know, ultimately it's not going to
be other people around the world.
If it keeps growing, it's going to turn
to us.
But what happened to stable coin?

(23:29):
Well, he talks about that, he talks about
that too.
Play number four.
I think you have to start, David, with
a point of view that the dollar and
the relationship between currencies fluctuate.
And, you know, the dollar's been on a
pretty good run over a long period of
time, and it's certainly given back this year,
given some of the policy actions, some of
the gains.
But fundamentally, the dollar is the reserve currency

(23:49):
of the world.
I don't see anything at the moment that
threatens that.
And even when we were talking about, you
know, debt and, you know, our fiscal debt,
when you get around the world and you
look at all the capital flows around the
world, global allocators, 50% of their capital
is coming into the US.
They might be hedging the dollar a little
bit differently now than they might've been for
the last few years, but I think it's

(24:09):
more at the margin.
So I think it's something to watch, but
I'm not concerned that there's some fundamental shift.
And actually, when you think about digitization and
tokenization and access to the dollar, you know,
over time, it's actually allowing easier access to
the dollar around the world, which in the
long run is a benefit for the dollar
and the dollar's position in the world.
Okay, tokenization, that's the stable coin gambit, yeah.

(24:32):
50% of the investment around the world
is in, you know- Dollars.
50-something is in dollars.
And so how do we get, we need
to get that to be 80%, 90%, 100%.
So you tokenize, yeah.
Do you need a digital dollar to go
out and capture you?
So the way you get out of this

(24:52):
debt trap or stay ahead of it is
you grow the dollar.
It's everything you gotta grow.
You gotta grow, you gotta grow.
That's the only way out of this.
Bigger, bigger, bigger.
More, more.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, I mean, this is coming home
Spotify for creators.
I got an email from them saying that
they were going to- Start charging?

(25:14):
No, no, no, no.
I did not, no, not that email.
I got an email saying that they were
gonna kill my account if I didn't go
out there and do some activity on it.
Oh.
Now, this is the first- Because there's
an actual like three bytes that are being
used?
What is that?
I've had an anchor account as just a
test, you know, to keep in the background

(25:35):
forever.
I mean, for a long time.
Sure, sure.
And this is the first time I've ever
gotten an email saying that I had to
go be active on my account in order
to- Keep it.
To keep it.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you're just seeing- So they
just wanna shut machines down.
Yeah, and I'm seeing it in the software
industry as a whole in line of business

(25:57):
apps.
I'm seeing, you know, Microsoft went up on
their volume licensing.
Now, this is a four, Microsoft's a $4
trillion company.
They make hundreds of billions of dollars in
profit every year.
They went up across the board on their
volume licensing costs 20% this past year.

(26:20):
This is what businesses pay for things like
Windows licenses, Office 365, that kind of thing.
And- 20%.
And guess what?
There's no guarantee it stays up.
See Azure this week.
Right, right.
And they're laying off people consistently.
Yeah.
You know, because AI.
But so there's, what I'm saying is there

(26:43):
is a reckoning that is happening in slow
motion right in front of us with, I
think what this administration has done and that
is inadvertently, I think, expose all the weak

(27:04):
points that everyone thought were there, but were
not, didn't really know how to spot because
global economics is so difficult to understand.
It's such an octopus.
But I think that just slow, if you
just slow, take your foot off the gas
just a hair, all of a sudden, all
the cracks and all the rot starts to

(27:27):
show.
And what is gonna, it is having a
ripple effect across all of these industries.
Podcasting is tied in with all of these.
Podcast advertising and podcast hosting.
Yes, yes.
And so, I mean, this is gonna be
rough.

(27:47):
I mean, I think, you know, once these
kinds of things start, it's gonna be, it
could be pretty nasty over the next few
months, a few years.
Oh, well, I have my own indicator because
I've been doing it for 18 years and
I can see that people are slower to
part with their money in value for value.

(28:08):
I just see it.
And which, by the way, is one of
the most fantastic things about value for value
because yes, it fluctuates and yes, it goes
down, but it's not like people are on
mass canceling subscriptions.
When they still feel like they get some
value, they send off another, you know, five
or 50 or sometimes $500, but only when

(28:31):
they can.
And they email me, hey man, like, I'm
really sorry.
I haven't been able to send anything for
a while.
So John and I both have noticed it.
And you know, I don't think it's a
reduction in quality of the products.
Although some would say because we don't askew
Israel, it is, but I disagree.

(28:52):
Okay.
But you know, that's, I think what we're,
I think that's what we're staring down the
face of.
I agree.
And it makes me think like, I've kind
of brought this mindset.
To the boardroom?
Or sort of to, well, to the thought

(29:14):
about value for value, about the Bitcoin, you
know, value tag.
Now I knew we're gonna be talking to
Chad today.
And it just made me, I've been thinking
a lot about this and I feel like
it's not inappropriate to have sort of convictions

(29:40):
about things.
And even if nobody, even if other people
don't share those convictions.
And so it's, you know, we've always had
a feeling that Bitcoin was gonna be sort
of a modern hard asset.
It would share a use case with gold

(30:04):
and in a way that's easier to get
into and out of.
Now, you know, whether gold, so I mean,
gold has a lot of drawbacks too.
You know, it's, you gotta store it, you
gotta keep it safe.
You can't really ship it very easily without,
you know, heavy insurance and that kind of

(30:25):
thing.
And it's a cumbersome thing to have, but
it always, but it serves a purpose as
a hard asset and as a store of
value.
And there was, Bitcoin is sharing that same
role, but in a much more accessible, easier

(30:49):
to get in and out of, you know,
package.
And so I think, you know, what we
felt like early on and why we thought
that Bitcoin was a good thing to do
in podcasting, good thing to support directly in
podcasting was because of its digital nature, because
of its open nature, because it was easy

(31:10):
- Programability.
To plug into program, yeah, programmatically.
And then, but also that it was going
to somehow serve this other role.
And so, you know, a podcaster could say,
you know, could do advertising and could do
lots of different revenue streams, but then also
have this sort of backup strategy.

(31:32):
This is the sort of the retirement account
for a podcaster where they, you know, for
lack of a better terms, you know, stacking
stats or whatever.
They're also getting a stream of Bitcoin in,
which is this hard asset, which is going
to resist inflationary pressure.
Yeah, it's volatile, it is, but that's the

(31:54):
nature of a 24-7 hard asset.
Of a true open market without handbrakes, emergency
brakes, of course.
Right, and people pull, the reason gold is
less volatile, even though it has been pretty
nasty the last couple of weeks, even though
the reason gold is less volatile is just
because it's so much harder to get rid
of.
Right.
You know, when you can get rid of

(32:15):
Bitcoin instantly, it's going to swing wildly sometimes.
So anyway, I'm just bringing all that to
the table of like this discussion of, I
think if you sort of eject the growth
mindset and say, well, you know, you can

(32:35):
have a conviction about something, you don't have
to just be open to, okay, well, I
guess we can't do it since we can't
support, and we can't do it unless we
can support every possible currency that exists in
the world and all of them you haven't
even thought of yet.
Well, I mean, still to this day, very
little work has been done on any other

(32:57):
currency, even the dollar, other than Bitcoin.
I'm talking about in the RSS feed, I'm
not talking about platforms.
So you're making a case to keep it
as Bitcoin, is that what I'm hearing?
I think I'm feeling that way.
And I'm not saying reject, you can bring
Chad anytime if you want to.

(33:18):
No, I don't want to, let him sit
there.
I'm free.
Well, you want to play this last Milton
Friedman clip and then we can bring him
in?
Oh, yeah, sure.
What is he saying here?
It's short.
Just play it.
The difficulty of having people to understand monetary
theory is very simple.
And that is that the central banks are

(33:39):
good at press relations.
The central banks hire people and the central
banks employ a large fraction of all economists.
So there is a bias to tell the
case, the story, in a way that is
favorable to the central banks.
Oh, well, of course, that makes nothing but
sense.
Nothing but sense.

(33:59):
By the way- When they all work
for the Fed, then that's what the story
is.
Yeah, of course.
So two things.
One, this explains to me immediately why there
is a federal law that no states may
make any laws against AI for 10 years.
That was quite controversial.

(34:20):
When did this happen?
That might've been part of the big, beautiful,
one big, beautiful bill.
Let me see.
Yeah, I think so.
Let me just double check.
Are you kidding me?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
No.
Oh, that's great.
Let me see.
No state laws against AI for 10 years.
Where did that come from?

(34:43):
Let's see.
They said, Spencer said they're edging Chad.
Hold on.
Oh, I'm on expert mode.
So it's going to take a second.
Expert mode on Grok is a piece of
crap.
I've been doing an interface today.
And I said, change the color.

(35:05):
And then none of the buttons would work.
You know, it's like- Oh, cool.
How hard can it be?
They sure do look good.
How hard can it be?
Don't change anything except the color.
Well, I changed the color and I changed
the way the CSS- No, no.
Just give me the code for dark.
Productive.
Do you feel productive?
Do you feel very much more productive?
Well, again, I feel more productive than having

(35:28):
no Dave Jones.
That's true.
So there's a point.
Oh, it's going to take a long time
here.
Thank you, Mike Newman.
Let's bring in Chad.
Let's bring in the man of many wallets,
ladies and gentlemen, the one, the only, Chad
F.
Hey, guys.
Hey, Chad.
How are you?

(35:48):
I'm the man of many wallets.
I like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm good.
It's really weird being here, to be honest.
Oh, well, we love having you here, man.
And I think I said on the last
board meeting that when I heard your voice
on the demo you did of one of
your V4V music wallets, I'm like, that guy
doesn't sound like I envisioned Chad's voice sounding

(36:12):
at all.
It almost sounded like you thought I sounded
like Todd Cochran for a second.
Oh, no, no.
I just thought you were like a really
wimpy, whiny voice, but you're not.
Well, thanks.
This says a lot, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Hey, I'll take that.

(36:34):
Well, we're glad to have you here, man,
for sure.
Because you have been doing, you've been doing
just Yeoman's work on testing out everything to
see if we can, well, I'm going to,
I'll set it up and then you can
tell us.
But to me, once Key Send started to
become an issue and we started talking about

(36:54):
it, you went on a very long journey,
months and months, I would say, of trying
to find first ways to make Key Send
work.
And I think you've now switched to, okay,
how can we make Bell and Address's work?
And with some focus on sovereignty and being
self-hosted, I think you've probably let that

(37:16):
slip a little bit.
And you've come up with solutions and you're
really looking at everything just in any attempt
to continue to make this work.
The biggest issue, I think, being metadata.
Does that kind of sum it up?
Yeah, but actually the wallet journey has been,

(37:40):
I guess, really ever since we switched from
LNPay to Albi, because I know how much
of a pain that was.
And we've always been, like, personally, I've been
looking for an Albi alternative for the last
three years.
And I still don't really have one.

(38:03):
Yeah, I don't see one out there, you
know?
Yeah, well, and- You mean like a
drop-in API replacement type thing?
Um, there's wallets out there.
So like that music demo app you referenced
that uses the- The Breeze Spark wallet.

(38:24):
Yeah, and that was, like, I added that
to an app that I already had within
a couple hours of vibe coding.
And that was really just dropping the GitHub
in and kind of getting it to work.
So that works.

(38:44):
And there are other wallets that work, but
none of them do Keysend.
So you can, like, I can, anyone can
go and build, like, a new podcast app
or a music app using the, like, 30
,000 value-enabled feeds in the index.

(39:06):
But they all have Keysend, so you can't
pay them.
That may, that is going to be changing
as, as my understanding is that Fountain is
going to start, you know, changing those feeds
to have a LN address.

(39:29):
Because I, you know, I spoke with, Oscar
reached out to me to make sure that
the APIs were right for him to make
those changes.
So I think, I think they're going to
retroactively, at least for all the stuff that
Fountain, all the podcasters that Fountain hosts, they're
going to start changing that.
So it really, it would be, I guess

(39:52):
the other major sources would probably be, what,
Wavelake, and then all the self-hosters, LN
Beats.
Yeah, because really, like, even that demo app
basically uses Fountain music feeds because they don't
have any Keysend.
So Fountain changes and probably most, probably most

(40:19):
podcasters are using a Fountain feed anyhow.
So even if they're using, like, Podhome or
someone else, I would assume that Fountain would
just fix that somehow, but that's, I mean,
that's really on the host, honestly.
Like if they're making feeds for people with

(40:41):
like value tags on them, it's kind of
up to them to pick what they put
in them.
Right.
Honestly, and then the self-hosters, which is
the camp I'm in.
So like I'm running a lightning node with
Albie Hub and it's, as a listener, it's

(41:06):
the best setup I've ever had.
All of my sending payments show up in
Albie Hub and I mean, they show up
in Albie Hub and Helipad.
And without me having Albie Hub, I wouldn't
have been able to do any of this
testing that I have just because it's.

(41:29):
Yeah, it's a Swiss army knife.
You got everything in there.
Yeah, like it's just been, it's been working
and it's been battle tested and the apps
are set up for it.
So kind of all of that said, like
the current, like the current model works and
we can build new apps, but any new

(41:50):
apps need to support Albie or use Albie
to pay most of the splits, I guess,
because like you could build a new app
right now and like all the payments are
just gonna fail if you try like a,
just say like a CoinOS wallet or like

(42:10):
Primal or anything.
So those are not.
Those are not KeySand, right?
Yeah.
Correct, yeah, because none of them, trust me,
I've tested them all and Albie's the only
thing we have.
So all of that said, we, if I

(42:31):
had to boil all this down, I would
say we need to change, we need to
move away from KeySand addresses in the feeds.
Yeah, right.
And I know that has metadata issues, but
honestly, I don't care about that because we
need to be sending payments before we can

(42:52):
send the message.
Because a couple of years ago we had
Boost before we had BoosterGrams.
Yep.
Right.
And all the other Strike or basically all
the other stuff, it just needs to be
put off for now.
Like we need to focus on sending payments

(43:13):
because ever since we switched to Albie, say
three years ago, everyone's been saying that we
need an Albie alternative, but no Albie alternative
exists because of no other wallets do KeySand,
but the feeds have KeySand so you can't

(43:33):
use other wallets anyhow.
So it's like a, it's a standoff.
And we always say that the feed is
the source of truth.
So if you're a podcaster and you have
a, I mean, you pick what you want
in your feed.
Like if your feed has KeySand, then you're

(43:58):
going to have to tell your audience how
to pay that or if it's a fountain
or whatever, like it's kind of on the,
like it's really on the podcasters, to be
honest, if we're going to.
Well, Dave, if you did a search right
now, I'm pretty sure that almost 90%

(44:18):
of all podcast wallet addresses in the feeds
are a fountain.
I'm just going to guess.
Well, but see, but even like even the
fountain feeds, like if you use, if you
use sovereign feeds, well, okay, so if you're
using a fountain address and if you use

(44:39):
sovereign feeds, it still puts the KeySand information
in the RSS feed.
I understand, but everyone has to change that.
I mean, we've even slowly changed and that'll
just, it's going to be painful, but that's
just it.
I mean, I've switched almost everything over to
LNURL for this podcast.

(45:03):
Yeah, and all of the current apps that
use Albi minus Podverse have updated to support
LN address.
So if you would, so if you would
move, I'm going to try to think how
I want to say this.

(45:26):
I guess, so if you're running Node now,
you're running Albi Hub, you put your Albi
address in your feed, the apps can still
pay it.
So basically if you switch from KeySand to
an LN address, all of the apps minus
Podverse can pay them just fine.
So like we can make this transition and

(45:50):
we know that the new Lightning addresses work
in the feeds, because like I've tested Strike.
Yeah, it works fine.
Yeah, Cash App and other ones.
So like the feeds are okay and the
apps can handle paying those because they use

(46:11):
Albi.
So like we can transition and then once,
like once we kind of get more feeds
changed over, then we can start adding maybe
more wallets into the apps and then worry
about the metadata and seeing how we tie

(46:32):
other things in.
Yeah, I'm with you on the metadata.
I mean, I will miss it very much
until we get it kind of working for
live shows because it's really cool to have
stuff coming in live.
I completely agree, but no agenda now is
accepting Bitcoin payments through Lightning and it's in

(46:56):
the feed as a Strike address.
And I'm sure we're missing some things, but
in general, the actual booster grams are very
low, but we've had several thousand dollar payments
come through Strike and people just send us
an email.

(47:17):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking a while
ago when Chad was describing the issues.
It's like, if we, the cliff we're running,
the cliff that we're about to run off
of is the, first of all, is the
KeySend cliff.
And so if we fix that first, then

(47:38):
I feel like, so if we go through
all the feeds, here's what I think I
should do.
I feel like I should go through and
just dump out a list of all of
the value block feeds in the index and

(48:02):
then group them by top level domain.
So all the feeds that are hosted at
Fountain, Wavelake, LN Beats, blah, blah, blah, just
and say, okay, and just get sort of
like a list that says percentage-wise, here's
from most to least, here's where all, here's

(48:24):
the biggest impact hosting companies that are gonna
have to, that still have KeySend in there
that are gonna need to make a change.
And then just like publish that so that
we can all see it.
And then that lets them, that lets the
people responsible for that know what they need,

(48:48):
that they need to go in there and
make changes and try to just keep that
in front of, in the front of everybody's
mind until we get like, until we get
a lot of, until we get people solving
their problem.
Yeah, and I have seen multiple podcast guru
metadata booster grams that come through on Strike

(49:10):
and it has a URL, same as Fountain.
And so, these systems are being tested and
built, which I'm extremely delighted by.
Actually, I think the Fountain ones, I think
they're just a link to the episode in
Fountain, but I could be wrong.
But the podcast guru ones are a link

(49:34):
to like a webpage for podcast guru and
it has what looks like the TLV records.
I also got one here from Castamatic.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure what Frank
is doing yet, but I know the podcast
guru guys have been playing around with just

(49:54):
putting a URL in like the metadata or
whatever.
And sending that along.
Right, so the metadata is like, you just
link out to it and it's readable?
Is that the way it is?
Yeah, basically, and then I guess like if,
like in Adam's example of using Strike to

(50:16):
receive payments for no agenda, like Strike's not
going to let you tie in to get
that data.
So I think that data needs to be
sent.
Somewhere else.
Like, whoa, 10,000 sats, thank you very
much.
Which I'm guessing that's up to the, I'm

(50:36):
guessing that's up to the podcast apps, like.
Alex is running, you know, Alex is building
the MetaBoost spec to give us an API,
like a Swagger, you know, API to get,
to send the metadata and then we can
all just write to that interface and then
on the back end, you can push to
wherever you want it to be.

(50:57):
If that's, you know, Nostr, if that's Nostr
or somewhere else.
I got, I have Fountain, yeah, you're right,
Chad.
They send you a URL to the Boost,
the Boostagram on Fountain.
And so I got one here and it
took me right to Comix or Blogger's Boostagram.
So I can read it right there.

(51:19):
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if it went to
like the episode page or if it went
right to the, right to the Boost, but
okay, that's good to know.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's looking good.
What I was saying earlier, the kind of
where I was going with all that discussion,
you know, previously is where, is that I
think that we're just, at some point you

(51:40):
can't avoid having some, being opinionated about stuff.
And we, I think we've always tried and
actually we've gotten criticism for this too.
We've tried to be so open and so
accommodating to every possible protocol to where, you
know, like when you, for instance, the social

(52:02):
interact tag, you know, it's made to be
where you can just plug anything into it.
You don't, we never said, okay, you must
use ActivityPub or you must use this or
that.
But so we tried, instead we tried to
make it where it was just as open
as possible and pluggable.
But I think, you know, and that's fine.

(52:23):
I still think that's the right approach most
of the time.
But when it comes to, but then you
have to, then you step back and you
look and you say, okay, it's been five
years.
And the only people who are using the
value tag in anything like, the only people

(52:44):
using it period are Bitcoin people.
So it doesn't mean you stop, it doesn't
mean we're gonna, you know, that we all
change the spec to where it doesn't accept
anything but Bitcoin.
It just means that I think like we
can safely say at this point in the
game, let's focus on Bitcoin and solve this

(53:07):
problem and make sure that it works because
it's just, it's been in a broken state
for months now, sort of.
And it's just sort of limping along.
And I think we need to like, I'm
kind of speaking just from my own mind
here.
I'm talking this out myself so that I

(53:28):
understand what I'm planning to do and say,
well, this is, I'm not gonna feel bad
about just digging in and making sure that
we fix the Bitcoin part.
You know, I don't, anything else, trying to

(53:49):
say, oh, well, they dropped KeySend or they're
not, they dropped, but like nobody supports KeySend
for normal wallets.
So let's switch to stable coin or let's
try to figure out how to cram the
dollar into this thing or whatever.
I mean, I just don't think that's useful.
I think we just need to double down

(54:10):
on the people who clearly love and use
this thing all the time.
Yeah, and like you say that Bitcoiners are
using this and Bitcoiners are just happy with
whatever Fountain decides to do.
And I like the direction Oscar's going.

(54:30):
I might not, I might not agree with
it, like with the Nostr stuff fully, but
like the bit, the quote unquote Bitcoiners are
only using Fountain and they'll just do whatever
Fountain tells them to do.

(54:51):
And my focus is on those of us
that have been here all five years and
wanna help all of the apps do this,
not just Fountain.
Like I want, like I wanna help Franco,
wanna help the guys that, you know, podcast
guru, Mitch over at Podverse, Stephen B at

(55:14):
CurioCaster.
So like, I'm like, I kind of see
how like, like moving away from KeySend is
like the first step to fixing all this.
Like for me, testing and vibe coding stuff,
if I had more feeds that didn't have

(55:34):
KeySend, they wouldn't rely on Albi.
So then I could test, I could test
with other wallets and maybe that would bring
more, more people on board because like, I've
also been working with some Nostr devs and
one of them built a music app and

(55:55):
they pulled everything in from the index and
they said, hey, these all have KeySend payments,
which requires using Albi Hub and Albi Hub
isn't really that popular amongst Bitcoiners because even
they think it's too much to do.
So he just turns those off.

(56:15):
So he'll, his app will show all of
the music from the index, but if it's,
basically if you can't send a zap to
it, it's just turned off because he would
rather turn it off than have an error

(56:37):
message.
So it's like, it really just comes back
to KeySend and like, it doesn't say KeySend
has to go away because you can, I
mean, you can still leave KeySend in there
and just tell people to use Fountain as
long as they support KeySend and use Albi

(56:57):
as long as it supports KeySend.
So it's like, I don't know.
It comes back to the feeds, I guess,
is kind of my, if I had to
sum all this up.
Well, there's somebody, just trying to figure out
who this is, somebody in the boardroom, caught,

(57:18):
maybe it's Cotton Gin saying just use Noster.
I mean, the problem, I don't want to,
the value tag is supposed to be, it's
supposed to be a direct interface to the
currency or to the protocol that controls the

(57:40):
ledger.
It should not be an interface to an
intermediary platform like Noster that has some then
depend, that where you have to use Noster
to get to Bitcoin.
That's just, I don't think that that makes
any sense.

(58:01):
I mean, if you're going to use, if
you're going to do that, just figure out
how to manipulate like the, just put in
some podcast TXT records or something like that
to try to shove that in there or
put it, figure out how to put it
in the funding tag or something like that
in some way.

(58:23):
But I mean, the value tag itself is
supposed to be a direct interface to the
currency ledger tool itself.
So that's going to either be directly on
-chain, lightning, ARK, you know, something like that
directly.

(58:44):
I think we have to keep it that
way.
It doesn't make any other sense to, I
do not, I don't think you can, I
think it's a slippery slope to try to,
because then why don't you just put like
a strike directly in there with API calls
or something?
Like it doesn't make, I think that's a
dangerous thing to do.
Yeah, and like, I'm like kind of on

(59:09):
the fence with Noster, but like it keeps
coming up.
So like it being used for the metadata,
I do like, because I've added Oscar's proposal
to some of my apps, so I can
send a boost and it goes to Helipad
like it does now.
And it also posts to Noster.

(59:30):
So that's like, that's a nice option, but
that's only like one of three options we
have for the metadata.
So it's like that and then ActivityPub or
the MetaBoost and I don't know, everyone's going
to just argue between the three of those.
And so I don't, I'm not really worried
about that.
I'm not really worried because that's not, yeah,
something I'm worried about.

(59:50):
But then Noster also adds Noster Wallet Connect
that I'm a huge fan of because that
adding just that.
Good tech, unfortunate name.
Yeah, but names don't matter, but.
Right, I'm just saying people immediately think it's
a, they need a relay and all that.

(01:00:11):
Yeah, but I don't know how heavy of
a load that is for apps to add.
None of them, like Franco's kind of played
around with it, but he doesn't really, just
from what I've seen him post, it kind
of sounds like it's like too heavy of
a load for him to add to Castamatic,
which it might be, I don't know.

(01:00:32):
But NWC like lets us use, I don't
know, maybe a dozen wallets and you just
kind of copy and paste a string in.
And if you lose that string, you just
burn it.
So it's like the metadata and Noster Wallet

(01:00:55):
Connect are like the two things from Noster
that I like.
But then again, Noster Wallet Connect, those wallets
don't do keysend.
So unless it's Albi, but I don't know.
But outside of, so if you want to
build something, I guess even the current apps,

(01:01:19):
like if you want to build a new
app as a Indy 5 coding dev, you
support Albi like we do now, NWC, or
you try this Breeze SDK that I've been
playing around with.
How do you like that?

(01:01:44):
It's actually pretty slick because it's similar to
how Breeze used to be, where the Breeze
wallet added podcasting to the app.
But with this Spark SDK, you can kind

(01:02:04):
of take that and you can flip it
where it's a podcasting app with the wallet
baked in.
Hmm.
So basically you just hit make wallet and
it just spits out 12 words and you
have it and you write those 12 words
down.
And if you lose them, you're screwed.

(01:02:28):
Right.
But so you spin that up.
But you don't need to manage liquidity or
anything?
No, that's all done through Breeze because you'll
connect it and it takes a couple seconds
and it connects there.
And then you top it up like you
always do now.

(01:02:48):
And I mean, it's almost just like how
Albi has always been.
But the only thing I- I think
what Dave is just going back to what
Dave said initially is if we just take
a stand and say, okay, here's what we're
doing to fix this since it's been several
years, five years, and no alternative currency has

(01:03:13):
been added into the system, I think we
just need to stop worrying about normies.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say.
You know, just stop worrying about it because
normies will either become non-normies or they
won't.
And personally, I mean, I've onboarded a lot

(01:03:35):
of people into Bitcoin and they consider themselves
to be hodlers, but they still, and there's
always going to be trouble.
They have problems figuring it out, getting it
from strike into fountain, connecting.
I mean, you would just connecting.
I mean, this is just life.
That's just what it is.
Yeah, it's part of it.
And, you know, topping up and buying your

(01:03:58):
sats and all this stuff.
And as I've always said, it always comes
down to the podcasters explaining that to their
audience over and over again.
And people will do it.
They will try.
They will really try to do it.
There's just no frictionless world and just look
at what we're doing.
It's amazing any of this stuff works at

(01:04:19):
all in my mind.
It's crazy that this has been created and
it works.
And by the way, we got 10,000
from Castamatic who sent 10,000 sats, says,
you guys are crazy.
Hey, no metadata, it's no message, which as
you know, is a key aspect of the
value for value feedback loop, which is why
you're keeping key send at the moment.

(01:04:41):
For those of us that have been building
off this for the last couple of years,
the messages are absolutely vital.
Well, yes, the messages are important.
I assume that came from Franco himself.
Maybe, I know Franco, well, maybe.
I don't know.
Well, maybe, I don't know.
I just assume, because he said that before

(01:05:03):
on the Mastodon, so that's why I was
curious.
But he's right, but it's an order of
operations though.
I mean, like, it doesn't, yes, it's a
message.
It's not a reason to keep key send.
Well, right, the reason you do get rid
of key, the problem with switching, or the

(01:05:25):
reason that you switch from key send to
LN address is not primarily to get quote,
unquote, normies or things like that.
It's because the writing is on the wall.
Yeah, because key send is so sparsely supported
amongst wallets.
People who are Bitcoin people may not have

(01:05:48):
a wallet that supports key send, and they
want to interface with that.
And so there, you need to have that.
It's keeping even your own rabid fan base
in some instances from sending you money.
And going back to the Nostra wars of
the past, so far Nostra has not come

(01:06:12):
up with the promised alternative to value for
value podcasting, because of course they couldn't, we
knew that.
But we've also failed in making the payment
part easy for the Nostra people.
So, I mean, there's really your opportunity.
Yeah, well, okay, so assuming that was from
Franco, which I think it was.

(01:06:33):
It doesn't matter to me.
Well, but okay, I'm just, I've been kind
of working with him on stuff.
So he's kind of at the top of
my mind, but if he's building Castamatic, that's
his app.
If he wants to support key send, he
can keep Albie in Castamatic.

(01:06:54):
And as long as they support key send,
then like, what's, like, I don't see the
issue.
Because I mean, Albie just, Albie will pay
anything.
And if he, FAP devs want to support,
keep supporting Albie, then that's, I mean, that's
their, I don't know, I mean, it comes

(01:07:15):
down to what they want to do.
I mean, it really, it comes down to
what all of us want to do.
Like every app dev, podcaster.
Yeah, I'm going to be honest.
This is my life.
I live on value for value.
I live on it.
That's literally how I pay my mortgage, my
car, help my kids with their electricity bill.

(01:07:35):
I live on this.
I live and die by it.
And we still get PayPal's with no note.
And you know what they get?
A double up karma.
And, you know, and notes get lost and
it's a very convoluted system.
And it's not always perfect, but it's not
like the end of the world.
If I asked John C.

(01:07:56):
Dvorak, and it took me 10 years to
get him to even accept Bitcoin, 10, if
I asked him, how critical is the note?
He says, but I don't care at all.
Just want the money.
And, you know, so it's not the end
of the world and we will fix it.
But in the meantime, you know, in this

(01:08:18):
transition period, we have to keep the money
flowing and which has stopped, by the way,
the amount of sats coming into the podcast
index node is dropped significantly.
Just fallen off a cliff.
And I think it's multiple reasons why.

(01:08:39):
And going back to Dave's original point, I'm
using Bitcoin more and more as currency.
And there's so many different ways to use
it as currency.
And there's so many people who are, particularly
Chris at This Week in Bitcoin is continuously
coming up, you know, showing us new ways

(01:09:00):
of how without selling your Bitcoin, you can
transfer it to different places and you can
use fiat against it.
This is just the pioneering world that we
have to go through.
And we may wind up as, you know,
we come out of the apocalypse and everything
around us is in rubble and ash that
we may still be alive, you know, and

(01:09:23):
we'll be using this.
I don't know.
Sounds to me like 10 years is kind
of the timeframe when something has to blow
up with the dollar.
I don't think we have much more than
that.
Maybe that's why that 10 year AI thing
has been put in place.
No laws against AI, state laws.
So, you know, it's like, yeah, it's a

(01:09:43):
step back, but I'm sorry, it's not the
end of the world.
It's just not.
We're not gonna not...
To me, the metadata thing is very solvable.
But it's been two things that have been
holding us back.
One, a core group of very hardcore people

(01:10:03):
saying, if it's not sovereign, it's no good.
And that has driven away tons of musicians,
all kinds of people who just threw their
hands up in the air and went, I
can't do an Albi hub.
I don't feel like doing it.
It's too much work.
And they went away.
I think that ship has now sailed.
I think we're past that, particularly with the

(01:10:24):
strike just being so incredibly easy to convert
your Bitcoin back and forth.
And now we're at the metadata stage.
And I think we just have to do
the same thing.
We just gotta go.
We gotta move forward.
Well, yeah, Eric P.P. said metadata is
solvable in multiple ways.
Yeah, I think the metadata seems very solvable
to me.

(01:10:45):
But you have to figure out order of
operations when you have multiple things.
You have a switch from key send to
LN address, and then you have the fact
that LN address does not handle metadata very
well.
Here's a way to do it.
Solve one, then the other.
Here's a possible interim step that may help

(01:11:05):
people.
Because it's mainly people who are doing live
shows who will really miss the Boostergram aspect.
And I completely get it.
I think, and by the way, 90%
of those people use noagenda stream and the
void zero node.net IRC channels.

(01:11:25):
I'm convinced of it.
Those are the loudest people.
We can easily create a bot.
I'm looking at you, Cotton Gin, that will
take 1% split of an LN address
Boostergram and somehow convert that into an onscreen
message as an interim step.

(01:11:48):
So at least we have metadata coming through
for the live shows.
I think that's the main thing that people
want.
Yeah, well, a few of the NA-related
shows, I know bowl after bowl, Spencer has
a Boost bot right in the IRC that
some people use.

(01:12:08):
Yes, we need a dashboard, but we just
need to figure out where to pull that
from.
Well, this is what I'm saying.
If we create one bot, one IRC bot
that just does it, and you can put
that into your feed, even if you alone
are logged in and just looking at what

(01:12:28):
that Boost bot says, that's part of the
problem solved right there before we deploy a
new helipad or whatever else has to happen.
Just a bot, just a single bot.
I actually made something similar for Spencer since
his stuff posts to bowl after bowl.
I actually read the IRC and send those
messages out to Noster.

(01:12:50):
So that's kind of the same idea, but
we need those payment flows to be able
to tap into it, which I guess is
kind of my point and kind of what
Dave was saying about we need to...
There's so much to fix that we need
to kind of just pick something and just

(01:13:12):
start chipping away at it.
Right, so I think I'm with Dave.
Let's just pick payments first and work on
that, and the Fountain guys will change the
90% of wallet addresses in their feeds.
And we put out a list, like, hey,
you've got to switch.
I don't know any other way.

(01:13:33):
Yeah, let's fix the...
It's not like we're gonna lose millions of
dollars here, okay?
I mean, it's just not, it's just not.
Yeah, let's fix the...
Franco says angry Boost about metadata wasn't for
me.
Okay, there you go, good.
I stand corrected.
Sorry, Franco.
Let's fix the fact that a bunch of

(01:13:54):
wallets are not, a bunch of splits are
not working right now.
Let's fix that first.
So the money actually gets...
When somebody, there's nothing more disappointing, but now
on the podcaster side, for sure, it sucks
not getting those payments, but also it sucks
for the people sending it.

(01:14:16):
Like, CSB gets very angry when his splits
do not go through.
And I feel that, I feel that.
Like, I feel the...
If I try to send a payment to
somebody and it doesn't work, it's annoying.
Tell me about it.
I sent 100,000 sats this week in
Bitcoin from the CLI interface, because I know

(01:14:37):
that he's still doing keysend.
And no Boost was read, so I don't
think he got it.
But it left my wallet.
Although he does have two feeds in the
index.
I'm wondering if it went somewhere else.
But yeah, I felt very...
I was let down.
Yeah, you've already mentally decided, you've already mentally

(01:14:59):
parted with that money.
And then when it comes back to you,
you're like, oh, wait, I didn't want that.
Yeah, yeah.
And like, we're just gonna have a lot
more of that as we test stuff out,
honestly.
I mean, like a lot of us that
are kind of chipping away at stuff can...
We like doing that, but I mean, it's

(01:15:21):
gonna...
Stuff's gonna fail, but it's either...
We either leave it like it is or
we fix something.
All right, Dave Jones, PodSage, what's the plan
of attack here?
What's the plan of attack?
What are we gonna do?
I'm gonna start by dumping out all those
feeds and getting us a list that tells
where, top to like most to least, who's

(01:15:44):
hosting the most feeds.
And then we just kind of go through
and contact those people and get them, inform
them that they, if they don't know already,
that they need to transition all those receiving
addresses over to LNURL.
Yeah.
Yeah, and if most people are using...

(01:16:07):
I'm just assuming most people are using Fountain
Wallets anyhow.
So like that should be an easy...
Like switching it from the Fountain keysend info
just to the someone at Fountain.fm should
be easy, at least in my mind.
But...
Sam is gonna be affected by this.

(01:16:28):
I don't do...
Is TrueFans hosting any wallets?
Like podcaster wallets or are they just listener
wallets?
This I don't know.
I think they are, but not many probably.
I think they are too.
Not many probably.
Yeah, I believe so.
Yeah, if Sam's listening, just let me know

(01:16:48):
if y'all are hosting very many wallets.
And they may have already made this transition
because they're usually pretty quick to make changes
like this.
So I imagine that he's probably already moved
every anybody over to a LNURL wallet.
But I'll do that first.
I think that's just like...
I just can't think of 12 things at

(01:17:10):
the same time.
So I think that's just, we need to
start there.
And then once we get some sort of
traction on that and at least get acknowledgement
from everybody that they've got some awareness of
the issue and have something like a plan
to change it, at that point, then we

(01:17:32):
move on to like, okay, let's crack the
metadata issue because I actually think that's the
easier problem to solve.
Yeah, I agree on that.
Yeah, and if people don't, I mean, people
don't wanna change their feeds, then that's up
to them.
We went through this when Albie changed.
Like a lot of us, some of us
were hosting music and feeds for people.

(01:17:55):
And we had to go through and change
all of the old, Albie hosted wallets over
to Fountain.
And some of those people said, I don't
care, just shut it down.
And you keep the sats or we never
heard from them.
So we've got like, when Albie switched over
a year ago, we've got feeds that still
have those in it.
So, but yeah, I like the idea of

(01:18:19):
just like, we just need to know like
what's in the index.
And like from someone who's kind of like
trying to build demo apps.
Like if I have a list of feeds
that I know, like don't have keysend that
I can add to apps, that helps a

(01:18:41):
lot.
Okay, yeah, that should be a very quick
thing to do is export all that stuff
out.
And then we can, I'll just make it
available.
I mean, it's not, I mean, none of
it's private.
It's all in the feed anyway.
So I'll just publish it.
And then we can slice and dice it
and figure out what to do.
And there's gonna be some feeds that never
fix their stuff.
I mean, there's just gonna be, there's gonna

(01:19:01):
be stuff that's abandoned or people don't even
know that they put a wallet in there.
They don't know what they're doing and they'll
never fix it.
Somebody on PowerPress that stuck an Albi address
in there 10 years ago.
And then it's 20 years from now, it's
still gonna be have this weird address in
there.
Well, like we've seen that on the Albi
stuff because they've like, as they've switched off

(01:19:23):
stuff, people are like, hey, I had 100
,000 sats in here that I forgot about
for a year.
And now they're gone, but that's just, I
mean, that's just part of running with scissors.
Hey, Chad, have you actually been able to
send anything out of that Breeze Spark wallet
or only receive?

(01:19:44):
Oh yeah, I sent a bunch of test
ones to last week's episode.
No, cause I'm getting all kinds of errors
trying to get it out.
There was, I saw CSB post something earlier
that in fountain that episode, that year split
on that episode failed.

(01:20:05):
Well, no, I'm trying to get it out.
I'm trying to get, yeah.
So there's like 26,000 sats in there
and I want to send it to the
podcast index node and I keep getting the
payment failure, all kinds of crap.
I haven't really done much sending out, but

(01:20:28):
that doesn't, you're not doing a key send
payment, are you?
No, no, no, no, Ellen address.
Yeah, I don't, I've only been putting like
a thousand sats in at a time.
Yeah, I just let it sit and it's
not doing very well.
I'm also on the listener side, so I'm

(01:20:51):
like pumping sats in and not really pulling
them out from places.
Right.
So that's not really my area of expertise.
Well, so far failing.
But the sats are there and that's what's
important.
Yeah.
Yeah, got to call Roy.
Hey Roy, give me my sats man.

(01:21:13):
They're there unless you try to send to
Jupiter, then they just go somewhere else.
In my demo app, I'll add this episode
and you can boost it and I'll tell
you if all the sats made it to
my wallet or not.
Yeah, well, I mean, again, the problem is
getting them out of the Spark wallet.
That's the problem.

(01:21:33):
Just boost something, but yeah, we'll see that.
That's also a demo wallet.
So I don't know, but I mean, you've
got Roy's number, right?
Can't you just?
Yes, I do.
I don't want to bother him for 26
,000 sats, but yes.
There is a Telegram dev group for that

(01:21:57):
SDK that I've been in and he is
active in.
So, I mean, I don't know if you
guys reach out to him and say, hey,
we.
I'll find him, don't worry about it.
I was just noticing it was a problem.
Well, I mean just.
Roy has Telegram embedded directly into his brain.
I mean, never leave.
I mean, just like, just maybe tell him,

(01:22:17):
hey, we're thinking about maybe adding this and
see if he's.
I think he's checked out of the 2
.0 stuff from what I've seen.
Oh yeah, no, he's gone.
But I mean, maybe we can bring him
back in.
I don't know.
I doubt it.
I'm just a vibe coder, but so I
don't really.
I'm with you, brother.
I'm just a vibe coder.
That's a t-shirt right there.

(01:22:37):
Just a vibe coder, man.
Don't ask me any questions.
That Telegram group's way over my head.
But Roy's got bigger fish to fry and
I don't blame him.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so yeah, I'll do that.
And then maybe Chris Fisher can tell us
why he has two feeds.

(01:22:59):
Yeah, let me see.
Cause I took the one that, let me
see.
Did he have, yeah, I think he does
have two.
I think I remember.
Yeah, he's got a fountain feed and a
Jupiter feed.
Unacceptable.
Yeah.
Unacceptable.
See, I don't remember which one I sent
it to.
I mean, see, that's his problem, having two

(01:23:20):
feeds in the index.
Yeah.
I mean, if you search it.
Maybe if they have the same value splits,
then they should.
Yeah, they do.
They have the exact same value split, which
is what's odd.
I mean, if you search a show and
you accidentally boost the wrong one, I mean,
that's not, I don't know.
That's his problem, but I don't know.

(01:23:41):
We just, I'm just trying to rally some
people.
I'm excited.
I'm excited I see options, but I'm also
stuck in the way we do things now
because it works for me.
But I'm willing to.
That's how you decay.
Yep, that's how things eventually fall off a
cliff.
Yeah, well, I'm taking my Node and Albi
Hub to the grave with me, but I'm

(01:24:04):
willing to fix this along the way.
But I mean, the Node with Albi Hub,
it's just so solid.
Yeah, so it's so solid, but it requires
extra steps, and I understand that, but yeah.
It's okay.
No, but I mean, again, to this day,

(01:24:25):
Bitcoin, it's the only thing that's in the
value block.
Nobody else has anything in it.
So Dave, is this also your way of
saying we should stack SATs to save our
skin?
SSSS?
SSSS?
I wouldn't, that's not a thing I would
say, but yeah, I don't disagree with the

(01:24:46):
sentiment.
Yeah, well, Tina and I have definitely been
doing it.
We're all in.
We're all in, like, yeah, this feels good.
It's good.
Yeah.
And again, we use it, if we go
out for dinner with friends, we'll settle the
bill in SATs just for fun, but it's

(01:25:08):
still, he's doing it.
Now, and then I'll say- I've got
a buddy that does, he does all of
the new, like, fancy Bitcoin stuff.
Like, he's got a fold card.
He does- Yeah.
He does, like, Bitcoin-backed collateral loans.

(01:25:28):
Yeah.
Like, he's doing all of that stuff, and
like, you know, I don't really, I don't
know.
I don't go that far.
I don't get into it, but it all
works.
I mean, like, he's doing it all the
time.
Yeah, it does.
You know, and like, once you have a
significant, not significant, but like, once you have

(01:25:53):
some holdings, you can, the way things are
evolving now, you can really leverage that stuff
to do some crazy things.
Yeah.
And, you know, he's into all that kind
of stuff, and it's pretty impressive, honestly, because
you have a, what you have is a

(01:26:14):
thing that the dollars just are hard to
rep.
It's hard to mimic with dollars.
You have like a, you have an appreciating
asset, which the dollar is just not.
And so you can, like, if you take
out, like, a Bitcoin loan or something like,
Bitcoin-backed loan, you get, you have a

(01:26:37):
built, you're appreciating in value most of the
time against the loan.
And so when you get to like a
certain level where it's like the value of
your Bitcoin that you've put down as collateral,
the value of that number of sats to
the value of the loan principle, it'll just

(01:27:00):
sort of like reallocate itself and, you know,
it's because you're actually gaining against your loan
in dollars.
Yeah.
Which is, we're just not, it's kind of
like a brain- Twister, yeah.
Scramble, yeah.
That is not what we're used to.
We're used to a constantly depreciating currency, and

(01:27:21):
it's so hard to get your, so sort
of like readjust to this thing.
You're like, oh, you're saying I could take
out a loan in a certain amount of
months?
It may just pay itself off?
Like, I don't, that doesn't compute.
Yeah.
And so, but once you kind of like
learn how to use that whole strategy, like
you can do some pretty wild stuff.

(01:27:42):
And so I don't know, I just think
we're, I'm not afraid to just say, well,
you know, these are the people that are
using it.
This is the thing that seems to be,
have emerged as a real asset that we

(01:28:03):
can do things with.
And that's enough for me.
I mean, I'm not, I'm just- We
still buy our beef in Bitcoin.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, like- That's a basic necessity
right there.
Yeah.
And if I'm wrong, and it's all just
a huge global scam that, that the hood's

(01:28:28):
been pulled over my eyes, maybe, you know,
then it's just on me, I guess.
Well, let's thank some people for joining in
on the scam with some Boostergrams.
We appreciate it.
Bullysteed, one, two, three, four sats.
Chad F, CEO of the free and open
internet, AKA VibeCoder.
Yes.

(01:28:49):
There's Franco with his Angry Boost metadata.
It wasn't about me.
I read the 10,000 sats, Angry Boost.
Salty Cray on Howdy Boardroom, 4577.
Happy White Paper Day.
Ah, yes.
Here's my end of month dono in sats
conversion.
Five, $5 to five.
Go podcasting.
Thank you, brother.

(01:29:11):
7777 from Mike Newman.
I love it when the pod stage goes
meta with a report from Reelville.
Hearing similar on This Week in Bitcoin and
read it years ago on the Thank God
for Bitcoin book.
Don't reject BTC, but add others and relook
at a Gates proposal from a few years
ago.
Steady on.
Yes, absolutely.

(01:29:32):
Yep.
6900 from Franco.
Life boost is love boost.
Yeah, I agree.
And with that, I hit the delimiter.
Guess, let's see what we got.
We got some one-offs here, which is
nice to see.
We got, these are PayPal's.
We got $10 from Jeffrey Hallam.

(01:29:54):
Thank you, Jeffrey.
Jeffrey Hallam.
Thank you, Jeffrey.
We got, who's this?
Oh, this is Bronze Oxen Films, LLC.
Sent us $25.
Well, thank you.
Do you know Bronze Oxen Films?
I have never.
In fact, I think we need a defragmenting.
You've been defragmented.

(01:30:15):
Thank you for participating.
Oh, Adam and Dave.
Thank you for all your work to keep
speech free and open.
Your efforts have enabled many years of fruitful
ministry at the Schoolhouse Rocked podcast and the
Biblical Family Network.
Go podcasting, Sir Thinking Dad, guardian of the
home educators.

(01:30:35):
Yes, very nice.
Homeschoolers unite.
Yep, we homeschooled our oldest too.
And she's no longer on drugs.
It's great.
Let's see, three, oh, this is a big
one.
$330.
Whoa.
Paula, shot caller, 20 inch blades on the

(01:30:57):
Impala.
That's from David McAnally and the message just
says V for V.
Oh, V for V back at you, brother.
Thank you.
V for V.
V for V, love it.
Thank you, that really makes a difference.
Everything makes a difference, to be honest.
Man, that's, I don't know.
I don't think David McAnally's ever said anything.
He may want to defragment me too.
You've been defragmented.

(01:31:19):
Thank you, David.
Really appreciate that.
I hope, I'd love to know what you're
doing with it, with the index.
Oh, $777 from the boys at rss.com.
Bang.
Paula, shot caller, 20 inch blades on the
Impala.
Thank you, boys.
That is, and girls, that is very much
appreciated.

(01:31:39):
Wow, keeping us going yet another month.
Love it.
Yeah, Ben says, to the best open source
project.
Thanks, Dave and Adam, for keeping podcasting, for
keeping podcasting human, creative, and independent.
To the team at rss.com.
Thank you, team.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, team.
Thanks, team.
Go team.

(01:32:00):
Let's see, what else we got?
We got some booster grams.
Let's see, ugly quacking duck.
That's Bruce, 2222 through podcast guru.
He says, keep going, Adam and Dave.
We appreciate what you do.
73s from Southern Illinois, wet and cooler here.
Yo, 73s, kilo five, alpha, Charlie, Charlie.
Let's see, oh, Franco, speak of the devil.

(01:32:22):
Franco, 10,000 sats through Castamatic.
He says, I'd love to hear your thoughts
on streaming sats versus boosts.
Doesn't thinking boosters by name on the show
while not mentioning streamers risk discouraging listeners from
streaming?
In my show, I think both, and I'm
seeing roughly 80% of sats coming from
streaming and about 20% from boosts.

(01:32:43):
What's your experience and take on this?
Well, that's a good question.
I don't have an answer.
I don't think we've ever thanked streamers separately.
I know Chris does, which I always appreciate.

(01:33:05):
And he does get a good amount from
streaming.
Obviously- He thinks of them as a
group though, right?
Doesn't he say thank you for all the
streamers and give a total?
Yeah, he does, you're right, you're right.
Yeah, I think Chris just adds all of
yours together because I've sent a couple of
small boosts and it's just like, he'll just
add 10 boosts together in the streams, which

(01:33:30):
is one way of doing it.
So the answer is, yes, of course we
want names.
Of course we want metadata.
We have to go through, we got to
go through the wall of pain.
I don't think it'll take too long.
Wall of pain.
No metadata for a bit.
Wall of pain.
Yeah, the wall of pain.
But you could do, you could accumulate, you
could like, you could get those numbers from
Helipad, right?

(01:33:50):
Yes.
You could dump all that out.
Yeah, yeah, you could dump it out, yeah.
Yeah, but Helipad requires running a node.
Yep.
Which is kind of what we're trying to
get away from.
I guess, I guess Franco's running a node.
Just saying, I think he has AlbiHub in
the cloud.
He has.
He mentioned he has some kind of, something

(01:34:12):
with the API.
He's pulling it out.
Oh, he's doing a, he's doing a custom
job.
I got you.
Yeah, he's, you know, he's a doctor.
He's in there fixing it.
He's got his scalpel, his tweezers, gauze.
Yeah, he's just, he has a little mirror
on his head.
Of all people to be afraid of a
little blood in the water, come on, Franco,
we're going to be okay.

(01:34:33):
We're going to be okay, brother.
We're going to be okay.
Let's see.
Oh, CometStreetBlogger.
Did a limiter.
14.015 sats through fountain.
And CSB says, howdy, Dave and Adam.
Today, I want to recommend a podcast called
Happy to Help from the link happytohelp.buzzsprout
.com.

(01:34:54):
Quote, Happy to Help is a podcast about
all things customer support, brought to you by
the people at Buzzsprout.
Join us on the second Tuesday of every
month as Buzzsprout's head of podcaster success, Priscilla
Brooke, dives into the world of customer support
to make remarkable support the standard, not the
exception.
End quote.

(01:35:14):
Yo, CSB, the AI arch wizard.
Thank you, thank you, CSB.
That's beautiful.
We got Michael Kimmerer, $5.33. Chris Bernardik,
$5.
Thank you, Chris.
And Dreb Scott, $15.
Wow.
Let me see, what is this picture that

(01:35:36):
was posted here?
Oh, Lord.
Lyceum.
I don't know, Lyceum.
I'm not getting your boosts over here, man.
True fans.
That's so weird, because I'm getting even two
sat boosts from IPFS.
So I don't understand.

(01:35:59):
True fans stream from, hmm.
I don't know, I'm not seeing that here.
Let me see, let me look in streams
for a second.
Let me see if I'm seeing streams.
Yes, no, I'm seeing, oh, it actually says
true fans stream from podcasting 2.0 to
40 live October 31st, 2025.

(01:36:20):
Okay, so I do see them.
I see them in helipad, yes.
Oh, Sam just, like when I posted the
live thing on ActivityPub, he sort of reposted
with his own live link off true fans.
That's cool.
His own live, oh, so you can listen
live on true fans.
Yeah, yeah, I kind of like that.
It's almost like a link tree of all
the different places.

(01:36:41):
That's pretty cool.
Well, thank you all very much for the
value that you've sent, for the value that
we provide with podcastindex.org.
All of these funds go into the podcast
index to keep all the machines running, to
keep us safe and sound for at least
a couple of years.
So we appreciate that.
Don't let up, though.

(01:37:02):
Don't let up.
It's been kind of like evened out with
cost versus coming in.
So we want to continue this to keep
it going.
Really appreciate all that.
And Chad F, thank you so much, man,
for all that you've been doing.
I think everyone sees you.
We all see your tests and we all
have been watching with bated breath of what's

(01:37:24):
the next thing he's figured out.
And that effort is really appreciated.
Yeah, it is.
Thanks, Chad.
Open source is people and you- Open
source is people.
Now there's another t-shirt.
Open source is people.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, well, I mean, honestly the Bitcoin stuff

(01:37:48):
is my favorite part of Podcasting 2.0
and I just kind of want to help
expand that.
So I'm here if anyone wants my opinion
on this stuff, it's- Yeah, I mean,
someone's got to, but I mean, I see

(01:38:09):
the problems and I do want to open
it up, but also kind of want, I
don't know, I don't want all this just
to turn into Spotify or Apple again.
So any kind of pushback or rudeness is
- We understand.

(01:38:30):
I'm stubborn.
But I mean, this is like, I mean,
this is cool.
I mean, we just ran off a bunch
of boosts.
People grabbed their phone, you know, sending us
money.
That's, I just want more of that at
the end of the day.
I agree.
Thank you so much, brother.
Brother Dave, thank you.
Yep.
Hey, happy Halloween to everybody, if you celebrate
that, this pagan holiday.

(01:38:52):
And thank you very much, Boardroom.
Thank you for being there.
And we will return next week on Friday
for another board meeting right here on Podcasting
2.0. You

(01:39:19):
have been listening to Podcasting 2.0. Visit
podcastindex.org for more information.
Go podcasting!
Well, but they can all get a sandwich
here at my house.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 240: Open Source = People!

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Episode 240: Open Source = People!

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