Episode 245: Grow Your Show!

Podcasting 2.0 December 19th 2025 Episode 245: "Grow Your Show!"

Adam & Dave are joined by Alecks Gates to discuss our Podcast Discovery System

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Podcasting 2.0 for December 19th, 2025.
Episode 245, Grow Your Show.
Well, hello everybody.
Christmas is almost here.
Welcome to the official board meeting of Podcasting
2.0. This is it.
It's where it all goes down, where it
all happens.
We are the place, and we are also

(00:20):
the only boardroom that isn't mentioned in the
Epstein files.
I'm Adam Curry, right here in the heart
of the Texas Hill Country, and in Alabama,
the man who does more with your API
than the postman.
Say hello to my friend on the other
end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.

(00:41):
So, if a podcast goes live, and there's
nobody in the boardroom, is it still a
podcast?
No, then it's a YouTube video.
That's right, yeah.
I mean, there's Daniel and Eric, PP.
Yeah, the two, and now, luckily they're on

(01:01):
the compensation committee, so it's good that they're
here.
Yeah, we still get our Christmas bonus.
You want to have the comp committee guys
always attending the board meetings.
Yeah, it's, I guess everyone's traveling, or getting
ready, or who knows?
Party planning committee, where are they?
I don't see them around.
Party planning committee.
Or the committee, excuse me, it's either the

(01:23):
party planning committee, or the competing committee to
plan parties.
Either one of those.
Yeah, it's super lonely in here.
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, the power had
their end of year.
I completely forgot, kind of slipped my mind
to send in my predictions for 2026.
I think it slipped my mind because I

(01:45):
don't like doing them.
It slipped your mind because you weren't going
to do it.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of it.
What was your- I did it for
both of us.
Thank you.
What was your highlight from 2025, and your
prediction for 2026?
I mean, I didn't have a highlight.
I was like, for 2025, I was just

(02:06):
talking about, it felt like the major players
in the industry had finally just accepted the
namespace as just, it's a thing that's going
to be here.
Yeah, I agree.
You know, I feel like 2025 was just
sort of like a, okay, this thing's been
around a long time.
It's not going anywhere.
Let's just, let's start the adoption phase.

(02:30):
And then also, you know, Apple with the
chapters and stuff like that was cool.
But, you know, and then my low point
of 2025 was Todd's death, you know, that
just sucked.
But 2026, and this leads to my work

(02:53):
this week, was, I just think that 2026
is going to see an explosion of AI
slop that we're all going to have to
deal with.
Well, did you see my recommendation about this
on podcastindex.social?
No, thanks.

(03:13):
I did, but I can't, I'm trying to
remember what you said.
Thanks for reading my post.
It was days ago.
It was days ago.
I read it.
Yes, I read it.
No, I said, you know, instead of this
being a problem, why don't we just block
as much as we can and every single
app that uses the index should market itself
as slop-free.
Yeah, I think that's great.

(03:33):
I think you turn it into a benefit.
You know, if you want to listen to
AI slop, go use Spotify or whatever.
I really feel like it's an opportunity.
No.
It's a threat to the infrastructure of podcasting.
Yeah, I talked to Dvorak about it actually
on the show.
And he said, this is spam.

(03:55):
You should just block it.
Block it all, block it all, said the
man who can't even email because he blocks
everybody.
You block many.
I don't block anybody.
Well, you don't block them on purpose, but
you block email.
And this is similar.
This is actually a similar thing.
I don't block any email.
What are you talking about?
Your email filters are so strict.

(04:18):
Yeah.
If people don't have the email that lives
up to email hygiene standards, they get blocked.
Oh, then you can F off.
Yeah.
You mean like DMark and Sakspan and Schmickschmock
and all that stuff?
Sure, yeah.
Yeah, well, that's what email should be.
I have to.

(04:40):
AdamMcCurry.com is so widely dispersed.
It's just insane.
I see that as similar to the problem
that we're facing with AI Slob.
Yeah.
We're not going to block any particular person,
but we're going to have to jiggle the
knobs and like jiggle the knobs, move the
sliders around to make the filters so tight

(05:05):
that if you have garbage content, spam slop
content, that it just can't get in.
I think that's what we're going to have
to do.
I don't know how you do that.
I mean, I think just- I don't
either.
I think just, well, it has to be
a community-led project.
And I like just calling it TTS.
I like that a lot.

(05:26):
You know, text to speech, you're out.
Just know.
That's it.
Um, well, yeah.
Yeah.
If you can't talk, then you don't deserve
to be here.
Yeah.
You're not in full agreement because this is
the Dave Jones version of I don't agree

(05:48):
by saying, yeah, yeah.
No, no, no, no, I promise.
It's not that I don't agree.
It's, I'm trying to, you know, like this
kind of thing requires like precision of language.
I'm trying to, in my mind, I'm trying
to figure out how to like define what

(06:09):
we're doing.
Here's the analog.
So ever since everyone told me that YouTube
is podcasting, I paid a little bit more
attention.
And the first thing that is very obvious
and is kind of annoying and makes it
difficult is every single image is AI generated.

(06:30):
Every single one that most of them have,
you know, some kind of outrageous look, you
know, or some click bait type of you
won't believe, or this is awesome game changer,
you know, all of that.
And so it already makes it kind of
difficult to predetermine what I think is going
to be of any interest in a particular
topic.
And of course the algo has brought things

(06:52):
into my purview, but the amount of slop
that, you know, you wind up listening to
five minutes listening slash watching until you realize,
oh, okay, nothing's ever going to come.
It's just going to be these images rotating
stock images.
And that happens a lot.

(07:13):
It's a huge time waster.
And so that's the kind of stuff that
I think we should try to avoid because
that to me, that's just YouTube spam.
Yeah, yeah, I've had the same experience.
You get about, I don't know, four or
five minutes into a 17 minute video.
Yeah, which you think is good.

(07:34):
It's like, oh, only 17 minutes.
Yeah, this is right on topic.
And it never goes anywhere.
Yeah, it's just endless reiterations of the same
thing.
The same talk, like the same speaking over
and over and over.
And then you start to notice these images
look a little off.

(07:54):
Well, it becomes obvious.
Like I, you know, I'm a Ford truck
nut.
So I was watching some video a few
weeks ago about the history of the Ford
FE engine.
And it starts showing pictures like about three
or four minutes into it.
It starts showing pictures of like- No,

(08:17):
it was engines that are like, they have
like seven drives, seven camshafts in them.
I'm like, wait a second.
This is not, this is impossible.
What is going on?
Yeah, this thing looks like something from, you
know, the Voyager satellite or something.
But it's just, yeah, I think that kind

(08:37):
of, the threat to podcasting infrastructure is that
we just get overwhelmed.
And it's not just us.
Like, that's the point I was trying to
make.
No, everybody's bumping into this.
For yeah, Apple is, their directory is full
of this garbage too.
And because I see when they're like, so

(08:59):
the new endpoint, it's not new.
That's a lie.
It's an old endpoint, but I just took
the authorization off of it so that you
don't have to have an API token to
hit it.
And it just, and I beefed up the
amount of details it returns about the feed.

(09:21):
So this is just simply listing the last
X number of feeds that the podcast index
has ingested.
So you can hit this API endpoint and
it will give you, based on whatever criteria
you request.
So if you just give it a maximum
number, it'll just give you the last up
to 25,000.

(09:41):
It'll give you the last X number of
podcasts that we ingested.
Oh, okay.
In chronological order.
How about this?
Should we have a feedback loop that everybody
can access and not, I mean, not open
endpoint, but something that apps could put in

(10:04):
to their interface that says this is slop
and then just hit it.
Cause I don't mind reviewing that.
In fact, I'd probably enjoy it.
Yeah.
I think that's exactly where this needs to
go is we have a user reportable through
some mechanism and all the podcast apps could

(10:26):
like.
Yeah, it can incorporate.
And as soon as something gets flagged or
whatever as AI slop or whatever it is,
then they can push that flag upstream and
then we can have people that look at
it or whatever.
How about this?
I don't know.
How about this?
Adding another endpoint, open endpoint for other directories

(10:52):
or other indexes, et cetera, to access to
see what we have flagged as slop so
that they can then take that and, you
know, Apple, do you hear me?
You'll be happy with it.
I wonder what their policy, I'd love to
know what their policy is about that.
I mean, I'm sure they're having these conversations.
Oh, I'm sure.
I mean, I know they are because they're

(11:12):
the ones, you know, they were asking early
on for an AI tag that would be
labeled.
Yeah, but that's never gonna work.
It's like the explicit tag.
Well, so this, this is, the thing that

(11:32):
bothers me about this model though is that
it's always the abuse.
Well, yeah, you have a ban hammer.
It can be used anywhere on everything at
any time.
But if ultimately, let's just say two trusted
people, for instance, the judges of the index
awards.

(11:54):
Oh, those guys.
Those guys.
If they were the guys who were checking
it, I mean, how much could it be?
I mean, first of all, we're gonna shut
off Inception.
Just shut it off.
Just kick them out.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they themselves admit, we don't listen
to it.
And, you know, and the thing that is
bothersome about that is you check one of

(12:16):
those shows and you get two ads.
That just pisses me off.
Yeah, it's the first thing you hear.
So that to me is almost the definition
of spam.
Man, I got a good call this week.
A good phishing, hacking call.
Oh, you got another one of these similar

(12:37):
to the sheriff's office?
Yes, this is just as sophisticated.
So first- By the way, a person
I work with in my day job, they
got this exact, they got a clone of
the exact call you got from the sheriff's
office.
Yeah, a lot of people have mentioned that
to me.
Some of you even said, if you hadn't
mentioned that, I might've fallen for it.
Oh, yeah.

(12:58):
So this one, my phone rings and it
says Google in the display.
Now, right away, I know this can't be
real because not only does Google never call
anybody, you can't call them.
So this is, I know this is a
scam, but I'm interested.
I pick it up.
It's an automated system.
Someone in Toronto is trying to access your
account.
A representative from, oh, if this was you,

(13:21):
hang up.
If it wasn't you, press one and a
representative will call you.
So I press one.
About a minute later, get a call.
Same area code.
Doesn't say Google, but it has 650 and
I know that's the right area code.
Very well-spoken young woman.
Very well-spoken.
And with that, I mean, no hint of
any Asian accent.

(13:43):
Sounded very professional.
Wasn't flustering her words or anything.
And went through this whole thing.
And, you know, this is your phone number.
This is adamercurry.com, yes.
Someone is trying to open a ticket to
change the phone number that goes with your
Gmail account, with your Google account.
So, huh, okay.

(14:03):
Says, and so she went through a couple
of questions, which are really good.
So yeah, that's me, that's me.
And then she says, okay, so we've determined
this is you or that this Toronto is
not you.
So this person has opened up a ticket,
so you need to close the ticket.

(14:24):
And once you, as the owner of this
account, close the ticket, then it goes away.
I'm like, okay, that sounds reasonable.
Yes, could you go to this website?
Now I'm like, okay, let's see how this
goes.
Sites.google.com slash close dash ticket.
I'm like, well, that's just public, excuse me,

(14:48):
websites that anyone can set up.
She says, oh, but hold on a second.
We'll send you an email with a code
to prove it.
And bloop, in comes a code, looks official
from Google.
No reply at google.com, this is your
code.
Say, okay.
And it came into your email.
Yes, I said, all right.
So I go to the web, so I
hit the link to the website and she

(15:09):
says, okay, do you see the place to
close the ticket?
I said, no, it's asking me to log
in.
Yeah, could you just log in?
I'm like, no, I don't think I wanna
do that.
Because if you were nefarious, and she's calm,
man, she's sticking with it.
And she keeps on going.
And I said, well, what email address do
you have for me at Google?

(15:29):
She says, well, adammccurry.com.
I said, no.
She says, yes, adammccurry.com is linked to
your Gmail account.
I said, no.
No, it's not.
And she says, yes, it is.
It's hosted on Google Workspace.
I have the MX record right here.
I thought, wow, that's sophisticated.
I said, I have the MX record here

(15:50):
too.
It's not.
And she eventually wound up just hanging up.
But I can totally see where, because I
think Brian of London posted an Apple version
of this, and it's sophisticated.
The confidence part of the con game is
good.
And before you know it, you've given them

(16:10):
your two-factor, your second-factor authorization code,
and boom, you're done.
I mean, the internet sucks.
It just sucks balls.
The whole thing- It's terrible.
It was a terrible mistake.
It really was.
It was a huge mistake.
And it's just no way everybody can stay
safe in this environment.
Just no way.

(16:31):
Unless your AI somehow does it for you,
but that's iffy.
Well, that's, I'm glad you said that, because
I need to pass that information along to
other people.
You got to tell everybody, especially older people.
Oh yeah, because that's, unfortunately, that's the primary
target.

(16:52):
Yep, yep.
Hey, should we bring in our guests for
today, Dave?
Because we have quite a celebrity with us
today.
Ladies and gentlemen of the boardroom, those of
you who are here, please welcome the brains
behind many of the modern podcasting formats, protocols,
and magic moments.
Say hello to Mr. Alex Gates, everybody.

(17:12):
Hello, hello, hello.
Well, hello, hello.
Hello, hello, Alex with the CK Gates.
How you doing, brother?
I'm very well.
How are you, Adam?
I'm good.
I'm good.
It's good to hear your voice.
It's been a hot minute.
It's been at least a year, maybe even
longer.
I can't remember the last time you were
in the boardroom.
Yeah, I think it was the hashtag discussion
in like 2024 or something.

(17:33):
And how did that wind up?
I mean, we haven't really been focused on
new standards, so I think people just need
to do it and put some adoption.
I love that.
Everything we come up with in the boardroom
is usually as a post later on podcasts
and next on social, and Alex says, well,
yeah, I proposed this 18 months ago.

(17:53):
You want to take a look at it?
This is how I thought we should do
it, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, with a link to a lengthy
post from 2020, 2023.
So what are we here for today?
Dave, you invited Alex to come on.
I did because we need to talk about,
we need to talk about a couple of
things, but primarily the thing we talked about

(18:17):
recently with taking owners, sort of taking some
control of attestation.
So whatever, this advantage that Apple Podcast Directory
has where they have the owner of the
podcast is going in there and talking and

(18:38):
confirming that they're the owner and then like
giving authoritative action to the podcast.
Like this is my URL, blah, blah, blah.
You know, and we talked about having an
open version of that, you know, moveyourpodcast.com
or something, that's a terrible name, but we
talked about having a website, a web interface

(19:00):
somewhere where podcasters could go and confirm that
their ownership of a podcast feed and-
No, no, no, we discussed it differently.
Ownership of a podcast and then whatever feeds
are associated with it.
That's the way I understood it.
So that's, I was careful with my words,

(19:23):
ownership of a podcast feed, because that's what
you, that's the only way we can verify
the ownership and then you could have multiple
feeds.
Okay.
You know, that you combine.
So, but you're having to verify against a
feed somewhere because that's what you're ultimately doing.
So like, that has to be the backbone

(19:44):
of whatever, or the backbone of whatever we're
going to do here has to start with
some ability to, in an open way, have
an attestation of ownership that can be read
by and seen by everyone.
And so Alex has some ideas about pod

(20:05):
paying and I was like, yeah, let's talk
about it.
Yeah.
So we need to frame this discussion in
a few different aspects.
I really like the framing of a podcast
as an entity.
And then we also need to talk about
how that's going to work in a pod

(20:25):
paying world in both with Hive and without
Hive eventually.
We're talking like maybe even a decade down
the road.
I don't know how long, but so, so
let's talk about, so what do we need
to attest in the first place?
So, I mean, it's great that we have

(20:47):
this idea that this podcast is more than
the feed, like it could be a multiple
feeds.
It could even be like technically anyone with
one feed URL, but is also using like
IPFS podcasting.
Those are, if it's the same feed, but
two different URLs, like that's a perfect use
case for this.

(21:07):
However, we still need to have a way
of identifying the podcast identity as a separate
resource.
So maybe it would be if it's moviepodcast
.com or a podcast license or whatever, it
still needs to generate some kind of identifier.
So we need to figure out how that's

(21:28):
going to work and I don't have the
answer right now.
Maybe it's just a different keyword, I don't
know.
And then we need to establish a way
to trust that attestation in the first place.
And let's think about how that might work
with Hive.
We might just have a dedicated Hive account

(21:51):
from that everyone knows it's from moviepodcast.com.
And maybe we'll start out, we'll say, anyone
posting from this account, we trust them.
We know it's from the podcast index.
That's kind of how the whole system runs
today.
Like there's a central source of trust that
kind of bootstraps the whole system.

(22:12):
But down the road, we're going to need
to establish some kind of reputation system.
Like if we move away from Hive, we
need to think about how do we trust,
but verify that all these people posting these
messages saying I've updated my feed, I'm going
live.
I own this feed.

(22:33):
You know, we're going to have to think
about some kind of digital reputation system that
bootstraps off of what we're building today.
So that's, yeah, that's kind of where I'm
at in the whole thing.
What do you think about like a podcast
identifier?

(22:54):
Yeah, like I was thinking that, I had
a couple of thoughts about this recently where
if, I think we fall victim a lot
of times with being as obsessed as we
are, and rightly so, with doing things in
an open way where we don't, or excuse

(23:15):
me, in a decentralized way.
But then if, but we don't always, we
don't necessarily have to like start there.
We can start there.
And as long as we keep those goals
in our mind, we can eventually build, we
can eventually get our system to where it
is that way, but we could start with

(23:37):
a little bit of trust at the beginning.
And so that led me to thinking like
what you were just saying, if there's a,
okay, let me just lay out the model
I thought of.
If like, Let's Encrypt is already doing something
that's kind of like this.

(23:59):
If we had a way for, they're using
the ACME protocol, but if we took sort
of like, kind of like a spiritual influence
from them and said, okay, if we're gonna
claim, if we need a claim of ownership

(24:20):
that's verifiable to begin, to sort of begin
the process, and we already have systems in
place for feeds that are hosted.
Now, it doesn't work if you self-host,
that has to be like a different, that's
a little bit different, but for the feeds

(24:42):
that are already hosted at companies like Blueberry
and Buzzsprout and RSS.com and Transistor and
blah, blah, blah.
Those, they could do the attestation in a
sort of Lips Encrypt back and forth way
with us.
So if somebody said, like, I'm thinking for
instance, if just take for example, Transistor, if

(25:08):
they had a, somewhere on their interface in
their UI, if they had a place for
the podcast creator who's already logged into their
dashboard to say, go claim your podcast on
so-and-so, then they could sort of

(25:29):
bounce them over to our system, which would
already be pre-verified where we could do
a sort of a handshake back and forth
with them.
And then we could sort of pod ping
out, here's an, or however that needs to
happen on the second level, pod ping out,
here's the signed identifier or whatever that has,

(25:51):
this is verified by its owner that this
is the owner of this thing.
What does that, I mean, does that, like,
because it doesn't really solve, like we would
have to run to a separate thing where
people could do this process manually, but for
the ones that are, you essentially already have
a validation on the hosting company.

(26:13):
How does that work with the example you
used last week where someone still has an
rss.com account, but then decides that they're
gonna try out Buzzsprout?
So that, that's exactly what I was thinking,
because if you have, they have two accounts,

(26:33):
so they can, if they're verified, if they're
doing a validation, you know, we could, they
can say, oh, once they get, and they
get that thing validated, we could also ask
them, you know, where did you come from?
Like, do you have any, does your podcast
fee, do you have any other feeds for
this podcast that exist anywhere else?

(26:55):
And then they could go through that validation
on those things too.
Like, because they still have, like, especially at
the beginning, they still have those accounts there,
and they may be bouncing from one host
to another, but they, we might be able
to sort of like have these linkages with
hosting companies where they can help us sort

(27:20):
of consolidate all these feed URLs or all
these kinds of instances of a feed into,
of a podcast into one sort of verifiable
entity.
And how does that work with hijacked feeds?
Because there's a lot of them.
Well, they wouldn't be able to verify because
they wouldn't have control ownership over the feed
itself.

(27:41):
Well, there's a lot of people who, I
guess that's impossible to do, but there's a
lot of people out there who just rehost
episodes in an almost, or completely identical feed.
Right, but so like, if you have, so
if you have something like this, like the
Joe Rogan podcast, and somebody does a hijacked

(28:02):
feed of that on Anchor, well, they can't,
they may have exactly a cloned feed, but
they can't do that second step verification to
Joe's real account.
Right, but what if they register first?
I'm just going through all the steps.
So what if they say, yeah, I'm the
Joe Rogan account, and then Joe Rogan comes

(28:23):
along and says, nah, you're not the Joe
Rogan account.
Well, okay, so we're talking about a couple
of different things, and like, I think we're
confusing some stuff.
Like, you're thinking of it as sort of
like a universal identifier for like an identity.
Like, I'm Joe Rogan, and this is my

(28:44):
podcast.
Yeah, that's not how I should be thinking
about it.
Well, that's not, I wasn't, yeah, that's a
different thing.
That's sort of like a universal identifier for
an individual, but this, what we're talking about
is sort of, or what I'm talking about
is sort of an overlay for a podcast
as an entity, and then this, and we

(29:05):
already have a way to establish sort of
a baseline of what those are, and it's
the things that are already in the index.
So focus on the family with Jim Daley,
that main show, we already have an idea,
and this is a good example, because this
happened recently, they were still, we still had
them listed with FeedBurner feeds.

(29:27):
So actually, let's talk about this, because this
was, this is a perfect example of this.
So focus on the family with Jim Daley,
that's their flagship show, and the, they're quote
-unquote main feed, the real feed for that
podcast is on Omni.

(29:51):
But they also had the FeedBurner URL for
that show, which is updated because it's a
proxy.
It's most likely a proxy for the Omni
feed.
It's also getting updated every single time.
So in a way, it doesn't necessarily matter

(30:12):
what the feed URL was, because you're getting
the content every time.
It was sort of irrelevant, and this is
a perfect example of the point I was
trying to make.
It's kind of irrelevant what the feed URL
was, because every single day you got the
new episode with the exact same content.
True, true.
The only problem though is when you get

(30:33):
a mismatch where perhaps Omni supports a tag
that the FeedBurner proxy is not passing through
correctly, and then you're losing fidelity.
So then you would have a problem there.
But this is a good example, because I
guarantee you, there are people all over the

(30:54):
internet that are subscribed to the Focus on
the Family FeedBurner feed.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Not the Omni feed.
And so it's important that both of those
feeds be recognized as, not necessarily authoritative, that's
the wrong word, but as valid under the

(31:15):
scope of what Focus on the Family is
as a podcast.
So they could go, so we already know
that Focus on the Family with Jim Daley
is a thing, it's an entity.
So now we just need to know what
feed URLs sort of point to this thing.

(31:36):
So that's the problem.
So if we start with this entity, then
we have somebody coming in and saying, hey,
I am Focus on the Family.
And I can prove ownership of the feed
by doing X.
And then you have like a place to
start.
And as we say, okay, well, we also

(31:57):
see that you have a feed burner.
There's also a feed burner feed that claims
this.
Are you the owner of that too?
Yeah, I am.
We'll go verify that one.
So you begin to sort of like, Alex,
am I making sense?
Yeah, there's different parts here.
Proving a feed ownership, which we do today
with the lock tag and Apple's TXT record

(32:22):
for proving feed ownership.
We could extend that maybe with public key
infrastructure or something like that.
But proving that you own a feed is
pretty straightforward.
We already have processes for that.
The second part Adam was referring to is
more like reputation based, right?

(32:45):
Where, how do I know who you are,
who you say you are?
Feed ownership is a good example of that.
But we could also extend that to some
of the social elements like, you know how
I messed it on or social media websites
who can prove you on a GitHub repository,

(33:05):
or do you guys remember the service Keybase
where you can like prove you own like
a social media account?
Oh yeah, yeah, sure.
Well, that's all part of reputation and we
can build in reputation scores.
So I think we can approach it from
two different angles in that regard.
I mean, all I really care about is
that we name it the podcast exclusive naming
identity service.

(33:26):
That's the only thing I care about.
Yeah, yeah, this is the most important part.
That's what I care about.
Yeah, it needs to be very hard to,
you know, it just needs to be hard.
Thank you, penny dropped.
Yeah, good, Dave.

(33:48):
Yeah, well, what do you think about the
whole idea that the hosting companies already have
a verifiable ownership sort of in their hands
that they could pass to us?
Is that useful?
I think, yeah, I think it's very useful.
Okay, it's a matter of trust.
And I mean, as much as you want

(34:10):
to, you can't discount the societal impact of
a community and the level of trust an
entity brings.
So there might be some higher trust hosts
and there might be some lower trust hosts.
If you wanna do a self-hosted RSS
feed, you come along, people have no idea
who you are.
You're gonna have to, just like in, if

(34:31):
you like move to a new city or
something or village or whatever, you're gonna have
to establish a base of trust and that
might take some time.
In that regard, it's kind of like hosting
your own email server.
It's gonna take, you can do it, but
it's gonna take some time to get trusted.
Is there any?
Go ahead, Alex.

(34:52):
Oh, so we can take those existing reputation
scores and kind of learn from that too.
Like eventually we'll want, it might be, you
know, centralized at first, but we can use
that basis of reputation to provide some kind
of podcast and feed reputation score.
What is the existing analog to this system

(35:15):
we're talking about?
I don't, I think the existing analog is
we already take all these actions and various
different indexes and so forth every day in
apps.
It's just, we're trying to formalize it into
a, into a sort of a specification.

(35:40):
You could take some kind of analog and,
I'm sure there's some kind of a society
based philosophical thing here.
Well, for sure, I think the right path
is to start with the hosting companies to
provide a lot of that verification.
That just sounds so right to me.

(36:02):
Because, you know, if we can make it
simple enough that, oh Lord, even if ACAS
or what now, what's their name?
The Spotify service.
You're thinking of Anchor.
Anchor.
If they would do it, because, you know,
if we can get the hosting companies that
if it's something simple enough that they can
do this, then we actually can create something

(36:25):
beautiful.
I think that's the right direction.
I think there's sort of, there's the fee,
there's at least two steps to what we're
trying to do.
And I think that's kind of makes it
a little bit confusing.
But so if we have, if we have

(36:49):
a podcast verification mechanism, which like Alex said,
we already have multiple ways to do this.
That part's not a problem.
Then the question then is like, what happens
next?
So how do you- Right.
So let's take the example.
I go from rss.com, but like, I'm

(37:10):
going to use Buzzsprout.
What happens now?
Does Buzzsprout go, oh, hold on.
We see that you have an account with
rss.com?
See, okay.
So let me back up to the podcast
GUID.
Because that's one of the things this was
meant to fix.
The podcast GUID was supposed to be a

(37:32):
universal identifier where if somebody is moving from
one podcast host to another, that the podcast
GUID would remain the same.
That way you could say, okay, I moved
my podcast from Captivate to Transistor.

(37:55):
And so my podcast GUID is the same
here.
That way everybody knows this is the same
show.
And it was meant as a sort of
like identifier of the show, not the feed.
And you parse, or so you initially create

(38:16):
the GUID by a seed value and the
URL, but that's just to give you the
initial GUID.
It really doesn't matter what the GUID was.
You just needed one.
And then once you had one for the
life of your show, no matter where it
lives, that GUID just remains the same.

(38:40):
Now, I don't blame the hosting companies for
this because they're not the ones that are
the problem here.
The problem is that the feed owners go
and create, they create manually their same podcast
on multiple hosts.
They're not doing like an import.

(39:01):
If they do an import, then the GUID
should remain the same.
It should be consistent.
But the creators or podcast consultants or whoever's
doing this, they're not doing an import or
a move.
They're just going and creating a new podcast
with all the same details.
And so you end up with this sort
of like two versions of the same thing.

(39:22):
So that, you know, in one way, in
some way we already sort of kind of
solved this, but we didn't because there's still
this huge mess of people not doing things
the right way.
So in your example, if we go, if
somebody goes from, you know, Buzzsprout to rss
.com, well, then they should, if this is

(39:49):
all working correctly, they would have verified their
podcast on Buzzsprout and then they get over
to rss.com and rss.com's interface says,
hey, don't forget, don't forget, go register your
podcast over at registeryourpodcast.com or whatever this
thing's called.
You know, be sure and go do that

(40:10):
step because it's important.
As a sort of social credit score, you
know, type thing, go do that step.
And then when they get there, now it's
like, oh.
Don't use that term.
Don't use social credit score as a term,
please.
Cotton gin polluted my thinking.
Yeah, I know.

(40:31):
So, but you're, you know, like a reputation
mechanism to say I'm, you know, here's my
thing and I've attested to it.
And so if that, and then once they
hit, once they're in that phase of things,
now you're back into the realm of, oh,
hey, you know, you've already got this podcast

(40:52):
over here and now you've got a podcast
over here.
These look like the same thing.
Are they the same?
And you say, yeah.
And he's like, oh, okay, well, now we
know who you are.
Now we know what, now we know what
show this is.
But then after that, now, what does that
step look like?
And that's where I think, if I'm not

(41:14):
mistaken, we could do something through Podpain where
we just, you know, publish, you know, a
certificate or something like that.
That's a sort of a verification mechanism to
say this person, this podcast- I like

(41:35):
that.
Had its ownership verified and then that can
be another signal of reputation is, that makes
sense to me, at least.
Yeah, I think the service would maybe, so
maybe moviepodcast.com, you know, the more we

(41:58):
talk about it, the less I like the
name because it's not really moving your podcast
anymore.
It's podcast ownership and stuff.
I think it's going to be, it's going
to have to do some kind of good
podcast, good reconciliation.
So maybe, you know, whenever you register your
feeds, it's going to see which goods you

(42:19):
have and it's going to, if they're all
the same, you know, it's, there's not going
to be an issue.
But if you have a bunch of different
goods for the same podcast, it might, you
know, have instructions on how to fix that
and just choose one for you.
Or it might see that you've taken a
goods that someone else has registered and, you
know, tells you how to fix it and
so forth.
And then it might be as simple as

(42:39):
just attesting that the good match is registered
to that feed URL in Podping.
And moviepodcast.com has a Hive account and
everyone looks at that attestation and that Hive

(43:01):
account says, okay, we trust this.
And then they use that good for that
feed.
Yeah, so I could see where, Nathan's asking
what, you know, somebody fill me in on
what the reputation will be in service of.
It's, we're talking about the sort of claiming
ownership of a feed, but in a way

(43:22):
that's universal, where that claim of ownership can
be disseminated and trusted amongst all the participants
in the podcast, you know, ecosystem.
And so if, no matter where you're coming
from is sort of the goal there.

(43:45):
So if you had, if I understand you
right, Alex, you're like, the way that would
work is you would say, you know, you've
got these two feeds and, or you've got,
you've just created a feed over here and
it looks like the same feed as over

(44:05):
here.
And we could sort of help the podcaster
and say, hey, you've got two shows or
you've got what looks like one show that
has multiple feeds.
Is that what, are you wanting to do
that?
Is that what you intend?
Because if not, you may be causing confusion
with, and sort of like give them, it

(44:28):
could be a helpful service to them as
well because they may be screwing themselves up
just through ignorance.
Yeah, it's that.
And then it's also thinking down the road
where, you know, if we can establish a
reputation system now, once we're ready to start
decentralizing the whole system, we can use that

(44:49):
bootstrap reputation score or whatever we call it
to help establish a more decentralized way of
trust, improving ownership and so forth.
Okay.
So I'm a little cloudy.

(45:11):
To me on the last episode, it also
sounded a bit like Linktree where I can
say, I'm Joe Rogan.
Here's my megaphone feed.
Here's my YouTube channel.
Is that now off the table with this
system?
No, I think we're talking about the same
thing.
Let me just say this, that it is

(45:31):
completely understandable that people would be confused by
what I said last week.
Completely understandable.
I do not blame anybody for being confused
about what I was talking about because it's
a universal thing that whenever you take a
concept and start breaking it down into smaller

(45:53):
and smaller pieces, if you get to the,
as you go down in the level of
the building blocks, it gets actually harder to
understand.
I think that's kind of a universal thing.
Right.
You know, like, it's like, as you start
talking more and more specifically, you get lost,

(46:14):
but you start to not be able to
see the forest for the trees.
So can you just tell me again, what
is the problem we're solving with this?
So the problem we're solving, trying to solve
is the, maybe I can come at, maybe
I can come about it a different way.
Okay.

(46:36):
So we have two different, us and Apple.
We have two different methodologies or two different
ways of looking at podcasting.
Apple, as is their want, they look at

(46:56):
it from the standpoint of an account.
You have an account at Apple Podcast Connect.
You go and you put your podcast into
their directory that way.
They still have another way to get shows

(47:18):
in there, but that's their primary focus.
And that's a validation mechanism.
That's why, that's why Anchor back in the
day had to hire all those interns to
start manually putting shows into Apple because they
had to have accounts in order to do

(47:38):
it.
And so they were just using labor to
do that.
We have a completely different philosophy on how
to build a directory.
And our philosophy has always been, if we
find a feed out there that looks like
a podcast feed, it's in there, done.

(47:58):
Apple has an advantage in this, not that
we're competitors, we're not, but Apple has an
advantage in that they have a human being
that is claiming ownership in some way that
they can verify.
And they require, one of their verification steps

(48:19):
requires putting a code into your feed so
that they can verify.
That's why they adopted the TXT record.
And so they have an advantage where they
can prove that a human being, or at
least something that looks like a human being,
who knows nowadays, is doing this thing.
We don't have anything like that.

(48:41):
And as is typical for us, rather than
just replicating what they do in podcast index,
we're trying to solve it in a way
that's open and it makes it a thousand
times harder.
Yeah, and case in point, we're in the
Apple database, neither you or I put it
in there.
Yeah, I don't have a- Some other

(49:02):
human did that.
So, you know, the reputation is shot as
far as I'm concerned.
Well, you know, that's, and that's like a,
it's human curated over there from the top
down.
And that's just the way they like to
do things.
And it actually, it works well.
It keeps a bunch of junk out of
their directory, but not all the time.

(49:23):
Yeah, but does it, I mean, RSS.com
auto-submits.
I mean, is that a generalized API account
that just says rss.com?
You mean auto-submits to Apple?
Yeah.
Oh, I don't think they do, do they?
Yes, they do.
You don't have to have a account?
Nope.
You just check the box on rss.com

(49:44):
for Spotify, for Apple, for Amazon, and it
just happens.
Okay, so they're using their hosting relationship.
They must have a special connection, okay.
Yeah, but that's important, particularly in this aspect.
It is.
Because doing it in an open way that
doesn't make us the central authority of the

(50:07):
whole world, which it makes everything way, way
harder.
And in order to even begin to get
a feeling for what to do, you have
to analyze what every aspect of the existing
way that things are.
And so you have to get a little

(50:28):
bit philosophical first before you get technical.
And we're kind of in the in-between
stage now where we're like, okay, but you
weren't wrong in saying that that's kind of
what we're after in your sort of Linktree
idea.
It's like, you have to have a starting

(50:49):
point and then sort of an ending point
where you say, okay, we're starting from this
place.
How do we get to the Linktree sort
of building block and then what happens after?
I think that's kind of what we're trying
to figure out right now.
I think Keybase is actually a better analogy

(51:12):
because it has a list of all your
social media accounts, but it also provides a
way to cryptographically sign stuff, which is, I'm
not saying that we're gonna have to do
that necessarily, but that's a way of finding
who you are and a method of proving
in other means.

(51:32):
Keybase, is that the GPG?
Yes.
Yeah, it provides GPG keys and so forth.
Okay.
And then just to answer Adam's question, I
mean, it's a way of proving feed ownership
is gonna help in a lot of ways.
It's not just multiple hosts, it's multiple different
URIs, especially like this podcast is on IPFS

(51:53):
podcasting.
Yep.
How do you prove that you own that
URL?
Like that we're gonna have to, I think
this will help do that.
And I think it's a valid use case
to have multiple URLs for a feed in
several scenarios.
Additionally, having this bootstrap reputation system, I think

(52:13):
will actually help solve the AI slop issue
you mentioned you started the show with because
we can use this as a place for
the whole community at large, the trusted members
of the boardroom to mark feeds as AI
slop.
Yeah, I like that.

(52:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, cause this is, okay, well, it's similar
to TLS.
If you have, just because a website has
a TLS certificate, that doesn't mean that it's
a safe website.
No.
It doesn't mean that it's not complete garbage.
It could be just a piece of crap

(52:55):
spam website with nothing but ads on it
that nobody ever wants to look at or
go to.
Somebody has still done an ownership verification and
that's all that Let's Encrypt is doing is
they're saying, do you own this domain?
Yeah, well, here's a certificate.

(53:16):
And so it's the sort of the same
with us.
You have that step that says, do you
own this podcast?
Prove it.
Okay, you proved it.
You're the owner of this podcast.
Now there's this other thing where are you,
is this garbage?
Okay, so you at least get a leg
up in that fight by having some sort

(53:40):
of verification step, but then you have to
also go like what Alex said.
You have to have a human curation trusted.
Somebody has to look at it and say,
yeah, this is or this isn't.
You don't really get away from that.
I mean, we could make it easier, I
think.
Like, we can make it easier by passing

(54:01):
it through sort of a loose filter first,
which is sort of the same way corporate
email spam filtering and virus filtering works today.
You have sort of like 90% of
the spam just gets blocked and you never
see it.
And if you ever go look at it,
you're like, oh, that's just, you know, that's

(54:22):
100% obvious.
So they take away, they get you 90
% of the way there.
And then that last 10%, you just gotta
have real human eyeballs to look at it.
It's going to be a lot less manual
than that sounds too.

(54:42):
I mean, like you said, rss.com or
Buzzsprout, you know, if they publish it, you
know, they do their own checking.
So it's going to be a little bit
more reliable.
And additionally, we could provide some kind of
trust API for John Spurlock's input too, you
know, for example.
So how can I market this to normies?

(55:06):
What do I say?
You need to do this because...
To do the verification step thing?
Yeah, why do you need to be a
part of this verified trusted identity for your
podcast?
Well, for, you know, that's a good thing

(55:26):
to say because what I think implicit in
what we're saying but not spoken is that
when you, if you go and have, if
somebody takes the time to go and verify,
that is a, that's a meaningful signal.

(55:47):
So that, when it comes to things like
discovery and that sort of thing, a podcast
where somebody has taken an extra step to,
you know, to go and say, hey, this
is legit, this is my show, somewhere somebody

(56:07):
has taken some extra step, that's a signal
that we can use to show quality.
It doesn't, you know, I don't like, and
Brooklyn said he said the C word, this
is not censorship.
This is like, I mean, and this is
no more censorship than having a spam folder

(56:30):
in your mailbox is censorship.
Like there is some things that are just,
that are truly garbage.
And I don't mean garbage as a moral
judgment.
I mean, as a fact, you know, I
saw, and go look at, oh, corporate, I
see what you mean.

(56:52):
Sorry about that.
Go and look at the recent news feeds
endpoint, or recent feeds endpoint.
You'll see exactly, as you're looking through there,
this, it's funny how this all goes back
to the, was it, was it the hustler
guy that, or the judge in the hustler

(57:12):
case that was like, I don't, I can't
define porn, but I know it when I
see it.
Yeah, that was the Larry Flynn case.
Larry Flynn.
Larry Flynn case.
It's funny how all this stuff comes back
to that.
I can't, I can't define it, but I
know it when I see it.
So often that is the case.
And if you look at that new feeds

(57:33):
endpoint, you're like- What is that endpoint,
Dave?
It is api.podcastindex.org slash, let me
get it verified.
Yeah, podcastindex.org.

(57:56):
API V1.
I think it's recent new feeds API.
That's V1 API.
V1, yeah.

(58:18):
I can't find it.
Where did I put it?
Is it documented somewhere?
Yeah, yeah, it's, oh, I know where to
get it.
Let's see, docs.
Usually this is the time when Nathan pipes
in and drops the link.
Yeah, but he's drinking the eggnog right now.
Oh, here it is.
I gotta copy clean link.

(58:41):
I was actually, Nathan, I was asking for
the URL.
Yeah, okay.
Oh, there it is.
There it is.
Yeah, thank you, Dave.
All right, got it.
Yeah, so that's the thing.
So you can scroll through this and you
can be, and you can just see, yep,
there's one.
Yep, there's one.
There's one.
The ones that are junk, that you know

(59:01):
are just like monetization farming through or affiliate
spam, that kind of thing.
You just, they stand out like a sore
thumb.
Well, and Dave, some of it's just accidental
too, like WordPress feeds.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah.

(59:21):
Like you could say it's just bad implementation
or it's a bug.
There's all sorts of scenarios.
Or, and you know, we could even think
about pod ping spam as well.
Like, you remember that guy that you had
to block that was publishing like thousands and
thousands of updates for?
Yes.
That's, it could be considered malicious behavior if

(59:44):
not a bug.
And we could take like, you were able
to block it because it was on pod
ping.cloud, but theoretically they could spend all
the money they want and publish on their
own pod ping account.
And that's a sign of negative reputation, like,
hey, you're spamming the system.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point.

(01:00:05):
And so before, in the interest of time,
why don't, we've had two, the last two
weeks people have brought up that Hive is
quote, shaky, unquote.
And I have no idea.
I don't know if that's true or not.
All I know is that Brian of London
usually pops in and tells us that that's

(01:00:27):
fake news, but he has not.
The fact that he didn't is kind of
sus.
That kind of concerns me.
Cause I was banking on Brian being like,
you know, that's fake news, but he didn't,
he's not said anything.
So I'm like, what?
Do we build our own blockchain?
I guess, is that the question?

(01:00:48):
Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard anything either.
Usually Brian tells me if something's going to
happen.
I've been thinking about this for years.
So it's not like the recent discussion is
causing a change in my regard.
I want to get away from Hive just
because I don't think any implementation detail is
a good thing for this sort of technology.

(01:01:12):
I think we need to start thinking about
how to develop and use the system's reputation
proving that you are who you say you
are and proving that you own an RSS
feed by some means.
I think this podcast thing might become the
new sort of account based system that we

(01:01:33):
have on Hive.
Saying that we need a blockchain, that's probably
a little bit extreme.
But it's so hip.
Yeah, I mean, you could do, I think
the nano blockchain has a way of having
individual like micro blockchains for every different wallet
or something that might be worth considering.

(01:01:56):
But I mean, I think, I talked to
you about this Dave a while ago, maybe
having some kind of RSS feed versioning system
where you have different versions of RSS feeds
to be able to look up historical feeds
and like the latest version might be something
worthwhile.

(01:02:17):
And it's all these ideas of using reputation,
using different ways of proving feed ownership and
having a peer-to-peer based system bootstrapped
off of everything we're working on with some
kind of a decentralized protocol I think is
the way to go.
I don't have implementation details yet, but that's

(01:02:39):
where my mind is.
Yeah, Eric, we've looked at Eero and LabP2P
and that kind of thing.
Alex and I have done tests on that
in the past and run some proof of
concepts and stuff like that.
It's never, there's always been sort of blockers
here and there where like, especially with like

(01:02:59):
LabP2P, they get, they drop, initially they were
all in on IPFS but then they pulled
out of IPFS with their swarm protocol and
that kind of thing.
So I think, or the pub sub, I'm
sorry.
And so there's always a little bit of
thing.
I mean, Eero looks very promising, but I

(01:03:23):
don't know if it's solid enough yet.
The only thing that, I guess the only
thing that brought up blockchain to me is
I like, the thing that I like about
the blockchain aspect is that you have this
record where you can go back, because this
is the other thing that I was thinking
about literally this morning is in the, like
in the domain name world, in the DNS

(01:03:45):
world, one of the big reputation factors is
your age, how long you've been around.
And the blockchain lets you have this sort
of, lets you have this immutable record where
you can say, here's where this podcast, this

(01:04:07):
feed was born.
Here's how old this thing is.
And like that can be a major, if
it's provable through a non-modifiable ledger, then
you have this way to say this thing
is this old and I can prove it,
which is cool.

(01:04:30):
Yeah, maybe if we can do the micro
blockchain approach, which I'm nowhere near an expert
in any of this.
So I'm speculating a lot, but maybe each
podcast entity could have its own little tiny
blockchain that gets distributed throughout the ledger or
something like that.

(01:04:51):
But it's a great idea.
I don't think any of it matters until
we have a basis of being able to
prove you are who you say you are
in one manner or another.
I actually think that's- Do you have
a proof of RSS or something?
Yeah, I think the web UI part of

(01:05:11):
that, like where you're proving your ownership, I
think that feels very simple to me.
That seems easy to build.
I think we could get through that pretty
quick.
And then it's just a matter of like
what you're saying, where does that proof go
afterwards?
I'm going to have to ask again, because
I don't think I really heard the answer.

(01:05:33):
How can I market that people need to
do this?
And when I say market, it's like back
in the day, oh, you're doing a podcast?
Okay, you've got to register with Apple.
So- Okay, so why?
But why did you tell them they have
to register with Apple?
I didn't tell anybody that.
That was the thing.
Well, I mean, not you.

(01:05:54):
Apple told, if anyone, Apple told them.
Well, first of all, people don't understand how
it works.
You know, we have to- But what
was the carrot though, that was being dangled?
If you want to be on Apple's podcast,
you've got to register with Apple's podcast system.
Okay, well, so, well, maybe we, maybe the
carrot that we dangle in order to get

(01:06:16):
this thing jump-started is go claim your
podcasts in this open system, and then that
gets you on some sort of chart.
Yeah, you're fired from the marketing department.
I think they're sorry.
It's some sort of- Chart, a chart.

(01:06:36):
No, the domain is some sort of dot
chart.
Yes.
And you get a sticker.
Get the sticker, yes.
Top 5% of the web that comes
back to us.
But you see what I'm saying?
It's like either you use a fear-based
marketing, protect your podcast, that's one way to
do it.

(01:06:57):
The other, and I'm struggling, I'm just trying
to figure out what, how do we give
this some fuel so that people are like,
oh yeah, this is great, I need to
be a part of this, I want to
be in on that, because it will grow
my show.
Yeah, I don't think that's the only way
to think about this either.

(01:07:17):
It may be that we use a system
of delegated authority.
If someone just wants to, if RSS.com
has a way of registering a podcast on
someone's behalf, just to get started, they may
never have to log in until they want
to migrate their podcast to somewhere else or
something.

(01:07:42):
Yeah.
You don't seem excited about that.
Well, no, I'm just, I'm still kind of
struggling, like what exactly are we solving?
I don't think you'll get it until you
see the interface, to be honest.
And that interface is nowhere near ready to
be.
I can vibe code Python, brother, I can

(01:08:03):
get it.
You just need to explain it to me
in terms I understand.
I'm just trying, because we can create a
great system, but I feel my contribution is
to get people to use it.
And I don't quite have the story to
say, this is why you need to do
this, other than save the podcast index.

(01:08:25):
I'm trying to figure, and all indexes for
that matter.
I'm trying to come up with the reason.
I like the idea, because I can also
see it as a resource, as a big
resource, actually, where Joe Rogan example, here's my
RSS feed, here's my YouTube, and I could

(01:08:47):
even take it further.
Here's my Clips feed.
There's lots of different things you can do
with this, which I find exciting and exportable,
and people can build new products with.
But I just can't quite grasp the story
of what we're trying to get people to
do and why they would do it.
Yeah, I see what you mean.

(01:09:09):
Because again, people don't understand.
They see rss.com as a distributor in
the way that CD Baby is a distributor.
Oh, I just upload it here, and they
distribute it to the podcast platforms.
That's all they see.
They do not understand RSS.
The battle is over.

(01:09:29):
We've lost, we can't go back, and the
toothpaste is out.
So from that vantage point, what am I
telling them?
Yeah, I guess my point is we're not
even 100% certain what we're building yet.
Okay, fair.
All right, that's fair.
By the way, Hive, in January of 2025,

(01:09:52):
it was 60 cents a token, and currently
it is 8 cents a token.
So it's down 63% this year.
So that doesn't necessarily- There's a lot
of inflationary measures in Hive.
Like it's a lot of funny money, so
I don't really know what that means.
It doesn't mean anything other than people may

(01:10:13):
look at that and say, Hive is over.
Probably means nothing.
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can see that.
Well, my retirement is that, there goes my
retirement.
Oh, my Hive.
Oh, it just went up to 9 cents.
Woo!
Go, get out, get out.
To the moon, to the moon.
Sell, sell, sell, sell.

(01:10:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, we don't fully
know.
We don't fully know what we're building yet,
but I think the, it could be that,
as far as I can think, it should
be, we should start with the hosting companies
trying to get them to buy in, and

(01:10:56):
then in a way that is transparent to
the user.
Like if we can have some sort, if
we have a method where this person's podcast
gets verified with them doing nothing, and they
just sort of get this thing, this proof,

(01:11:17):
they just receive the benefits.
What are the benefits?
I don't know.
I mean, there's benefits to us.
There's benefits to us, but I don't know
about, like, they just, I don't know how
to, I can't, I don't know what the
carrot is yet.

(01:11:37):
Okay.
Well, hold on, tell me again why you
want it.
Why do you want this, Dave?
What do you want it to do for
your life?
Because.
No, no, not because, just what do you
want?
I want a better quality directory.
Okay.
And that starts with not, that starts with

(01:12:00):
having, with knowing that a feed is legitimately
a podcast, knowing that a feed is authoritative
for a particular podcast, and that's a thing
we do not have.
The user will not care until they have
a problem.
That's all the emails you get in the
podcast inbox.
Okay, so here's a crazy thought.

(01:12:25):
This is something I have a feeling Apple
may actually be interested in working with us
on.
They have the same problem.
Yes, they have the human part of it,
but not exclusively.
I mean, there's no way that there's Apple
Connect accounts being created for rss.com auto

(01:12:47):
-submit podcasts.
True.
So they're also getting slop, especially with RSS.
They are, yeah.
Yeah, rss.com has a free tier now,
so slop is inevitable.
So, hello, Ted.
Maybe there's something that we can do in
tandem with them.
I mean, everybody would benefit, and I see

(01:13:09):
on the back end of this, I see
all kinds of new products being able to
be built based upon someone actively managing their
identity and their feeds.
I can see all kinds of great things
coming out of that.
It's the fun part.
No, you're cutting out, Alex.

(01:13:30):
You're cutting out.
It's the fight against AI slop.
Well, see, that I can sell.
Fight against slop.
Rock against religion.
The why has, as Nathan said, the why
has to be something like, quote, we're building
the best podcast search API endpoint for all
the podcasts in 2.0 apps.

(01:13:50):
We need to create a reputation metric to
get there.
Boom.
Better search, more relevant search.
These are- Discovery, yeah.
These, well, that's true.
It is, yeah.
That is true.
Okay.
We're building- That's why I said a
chart.
That's why I said a chart.
Okay, all right, chart man.

(01:14:13):
Something about chart.
Building better discovery is very compelling.
Just in the, as Dave has a hard
out, in the limited time we have, what
kind of mechanism can we create to help
build better discovery from a better directory?
How does a better directory result in better
discovery?

(01:14:34):
Because it involves a human doing something.
It involves in a, whenever a, where we
are in the history of the internet is
whenever an actual human does a thing, that's
the strongest signal there is now.
It's the community collectively doing it, not just

(01:14:56):
the human.
True, yeah, yeah, true.
I like it.
This I like.
I mean, I like it all, but now
I feel like I can be a part
of it because I felt kind of pushed
to the sideline.
Oh, sorry, sugar.
You'll understand when we build it, Curry.
Thanks, Alex.
You're building, you're going to build it.
You're going to vibe code it.

(01:15:18):
Well, you know, the new Gemini, it can
do everything.
It's going to run my phone now, I
just heard, so.
Yeah, you know Flask, so you can do
it.
Flask, Flask is the bomb, baby.
Yeah, clearly it is.
You've made legitimately killer software.
Basic auth, but okay, it's Flask.
Basic auth, the pop-up, the little username

(01:15:40):
and password.
It's so old school, I love it.
No one's complained yet.
No one said, hey, what's that?
It feels official.
Like, wow, my browser is asking for something
different.
It's not just some rando webpage.
You go to what you think is the
Godcaster live system and you're like, wait, did
I accidentally log into my router?
Yeah.

(01:16:03):
Exactly.
I think we need to thank some people
because I want to get you out on
time, Dave.
We got exactly 11 minutes.
All right.
Let me see what came in during the
show.
Oh, there's Sam with 15,395 sats coming
in from true fans.
Love the show, drinking red wine and sat
in the bath.

(01:16:24):
Let me just get a visual.
Let me get a visual.
Hashtag TMI, but don't understand anything from this
week or last week's show.
I'll leave it to smarter people than me.
We currently support Podping and WebSub in and
out.
Well, actually, Sam, the way I just heard
it, which probably this boost predates that, is

(01:16:45):
we can create better discovery for true fans
users.
If we do this thing right, then true
fans will be a big beneficiary of this.
Bingo.
So this is what I like.
Now I'm excited.
Roa Swans, three fives from Salty Crayon.
He says, what's on the menu for the
Christmas office party, Dave?

(01:17:07):
Drinks.
Okay.
Alcohol.
Martin Lindeskog, 1773 from true fans.
How did you commemorate Boston Tea Party on
December 16th?
Whoops.
I guess I forgot.
I hope this- That wasn't on my
Apple calendar.
I hope this Boostergram with 1773 Satoshis will

(01:17:28):
go through.
I understand that it's a challenge with plenty
of splits that could take some time to
go through to the receiver.
I am happy that streaming sats is working.
Everything's, you know, it seems like the move,
the basic move to LNURL is, I think
we're kind of there.
It feels like there's been a lot of
movement.
Do you get that feeling, Dave?

(01:17:48):
Yeah, things have settled down for sure.
Yeah, it feels pretty good.
I think so.
There's Salty Crayon again.
Ho, ho, ho, Dave and Adam.
Spotify isn't the only slop bucket.
Wave Lake hosts 90% AI slop since
this became an infection.
Fountain is guilty lately of hosting AI slop.
Luckily, we have apps like V4Vmusic.com to

(01:18:09):
help filter this since these applications are not
labeling them.
In the pipe!
Yeah.
Whenever you have a monetization scheme, you're gonna
get- Yeah, you're gonna get slop.
Franco Solario coming in from his very own
Castamatic.
1,225.
Bonus des Natales Solis Invicti, he says.

(01:18:29):
Did he say, is that the Italian in
the middle there for des nuts?
Yeah.
Hold on a second.
Let's put it into Gemini.
Let's do a little translate.
And let's see what that means.
Do-do-do-do-do.
Happy birthday of the unconquered sun.
Ooh.

(01:18:50):
Wow.
Never heard that- Sun, S-U-N
or S-O-N?
S-U-N, S-U-N.
Oh, I like that.
Oh, that's some Italian for sure.
And then I hit the delimiter.
Commissure blogger.
So take it away, Dave.
We got a little gift, Christmas gift from

(01:19:11):
the ladies and gentlemen of Buzzsprout of $1
,000.
Hold on a second.
I got to grab my, there we go.
Shotcaller!
20 inch blade!
Only in Paula!
Well, ho, ho, ho.
Merry Christmas to you, Buzzsprouters.
We are here to make your discovery better.

(01:19:32):
Yes, sir.
Yeah, you only have to do slight code
implementation.
Yes.
It will be painless, I promise.
Yes.
We have, that's our only big one this
week.
So we got some boosts.
We got December 13th here.
We got Ugly Cracking Duck.
Bruce2222 through Podcast Guru says, AI and bad

(01:19:53):
players are pushing everything and everyone into a
digital ID system.
We will be marked.
73.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Ominous.
Hmm.
5225 from Anonymous.
True fan support.
Thank you, Anonymous.
Appreciate that.

(01:20:15):
2222 from Seloss on Linux.
Fountain.
He says, with that endpoint of new shows,
maybe we could do a bird watch type
thing.
That is what later turned into community notes
on X, where it has people write and
rate notes, and the notes only show up
if people that usually disagree agree that this
post needs a note.

(01:20:36):
Wow.
That could come from any user reports from
apps too, I guess, but then we would
need a centralized way of tracking the reports.
That would work for removing shows automatically in
an actually reliable way though, just as an
idea.
Kind of like that.
I mean, I actually like the whole community

(01:20:57):
notes idea.
I've always kind of dug that.
Yeah, community notes is the only good part
of Twitter.
Yes.
Facebook tried, it kind of failed though.
It hasn't really worked for them.
I wonder why.
It's Facebook.
Yeah, well, everything fails there.
Interesting.

(01:21:18):
Okay.
Well, that's an interesting idea.
See, oh, Delimiter.
Comic strip blogger.
17333 through Fountain.
Howdy, Dave and Adam.
In my childhood, I was forced to be
religious, but I am agnostic now.
Nonetheless.
Force, force fed.
Nonetheless, I'd like to recommend a podcast called

(01:21:40):
We Get to Do This by Adam and
his pal, Jim Pruitt.
It's about hearing aids, satisfying their.
Yeah, that's part of it.
It's about hearing aids, satisfying their wives, social
networks and aging.
They also talk about a deity called Jesus.

(01:22:02):
Website is https://rss.com/.podcasts/.we-get-to-do-this/.
Just look it up in your podcast app.
We get to do this.
Oh, that's cool.
Thank you, comic strip blogger.
Good podcast because authentic.
Yo, CSB AI arch wizard.

(01:22:24):
He is the AI arch wizard.
He has Lady Vox doing his voiceover for
his AI arch wizard show.
And I got a Christmas package from her.
Really sweet with a beautiful note and with
some Alaska sockeye salmon and some like dried

(01:22:46):
fish.
And yeah, it was really sweet.
Well, that was really nice.
Yeah, very, very sweet.
I think she listens to this show too.
I think so.
Oh.
She's with the grumpy old dames.
She's with that show.
Verifiably not AI.
No, no, definitely not AI.
Definitely not.
Got some monthlies.
Derek J.
Visker, $21.

(01:23:06):
Paul Saltzman, $22.22. Damon Kasejak, $15.
And Timothy Voice, $10.
And that's our group.
Beautiful.
Thank you all very much.
You can go to podcastindex.org to support
us with some fiat fund coupons.
Just scroll down to the bottom, big red
donate button.
Or of course you can boost us.
We are open and available for boosting.

(01:23:28):
So we won't have another show until after
Christmas.
Are we going to do the day after
Christmas?
We're going to do a show?
Or are we going to take one day
off?
I'm good with it.
I'm good.
No, I'm good.
Yeah, I'm good with it.
Let's do it.
I'm always good, brother.
I'm always good.
I'll be at work.
It'll be a lunchtime show for me, but
I'm good with it.
So what are the next steps on this?
Are we just going to keep iterating and

(01:23:49):
look at some feedback and come up with
some stuff?
I'm really excited about the idea of making
discoverability better by doing this.
That now we have something everybody can get
behind.
Like, oh, I want to be discovered.
I think my next step for this is
going to be, I've got some code I'm

(01:24:13):
fooling with right now for this, to make
this AI endpoint, excuse me, API endpoint, look
better for normal people.
Because I think that'll give it more visibility.
So I've got a little bit of code
I'm going to finish with that.
And then I think my next step on
this is to break out a pencil and
paper and just try to draw out a

(01:24:36):
concept of how all this stuff links together.
And then I'm just going to start posting
some feedback in the socials and everything.
And maybe we can try to come to
some sort of consensus on where to begin.
How about you, Alex?
What are your next steps?
I'll probably work on the podcasting side and
think about how it might look in that

(01:24:57):
end.
And we can meet in the middle.
Yeah, sounds good.
Wow.
Well, we have consensus.
Who's doing the meeting notes?
It's AI, of course.
Of course it is.
Hey brothers, very, very Merry Christmas to you
both.
And thank you for all that you've done
once again this past year.
Merry Christmas, bro.

(01:25:18):
Merry Christmas.
Boy, that sounded so demure.
Merry Christmas.
Hey boys and girls, Merry Christmas.
Have a good one, everybody.
We'll be back next week, right after Christmas
with more Podcasting 2.0. Podcasts

(01:25:46):
are cool.
You have been listening to Podcasting 2.0.
Visit podcastindex.org for more information.
Go podcasting!
Hey, that's pretty gosh darn good.