Scooter Braun: "I Let It Burn"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
No one has all the answers, but when we ask
the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
of thinking by daring to ask, what if, why not?

(00:28):
And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
the conversation. It's time to question everything. For years, Scooter
Braun was known as the man in music with the
mightas touch, launching and steering the careers of artists like
Justin Bieber, Ariana Grande, and Jay Balvin. His name became

(00:51):
synonymous with strategy, influence, disruption, with making the impossible happen.
His company, as b Project, became known for closing the
big deals. But there was another side of it too.
The tour model they pioneered built philanthropy into the business.
Under Brawn, tour models became platforms for impact. Here are

(01:14):
some examples. Justin Bieber's tours funded global education with pencils
of Promise and launched Justice and Action, connecting fans to
causes like climate change and criminal justice.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Reform.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Ariana Grande's concerts raised over twenty three million dollars for
victims after the Manchester bombing and registered thousands of young
voters through Headcount. Demi Levado's tour offered free on site
therapy sessions in partnership with Cast Centers. SB projects also
contributed to movements like March for Our Lives, We Are
the World, twenty five for Haiti, and organizations including Make

(01:50):
a Wish, City of Hope, and the Enough Project. And
that's just what's public. There's likely more we'll never see
in the headlines. That was a part of Scooter's image too,
someone who, whether strategically or sincerely or both, placed a
value on contributing. There's this scene in the Justin Bieber

(02:10):
documentary where Scooter is running around a stadium handing out
tickets to fans who couldn't afford them. Suddenly kindness was cool,
Philanthropy wasn't optional, it was expected. If you weren't giving back,
it looked out of touch, and other pop stars and
celebrities he didn't manage started to follow suit. And then

(02:32):
Scooter bought Taylor Swift's Masters and everything changed overnight.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Everything I had done before didn't matter. What surprised me
is how before that I was known for helping people
and philanthropy and success and all these different things, and
the next day all of that was out the window.
You were defined by this one moment.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
He had done hundreds of business deals, but that deal
cracked his world open. His name became shorthand for a
much larger conversation, one about ownership, power, and loyalty in music.
The Internet flattened him into a villain. But while the
world debated intent, Scooter was facing something far more personal.

(03:17):
His marriage was ending, his relationship to work was disentangling,
and beneath it all, he was staring down a question
that had quietly driven him for years. Am I enough?
In the time since, it seems like he's been trying
to stitch things back together, not just his career, but
his identity, his family, and his understanding of who he

(03:40):
really is. After twenty three years in music, Scooter Braun
walked away from management altogether. He's never fully talked about
why until now. This interview was recorded in April, and
even since then a lot has changed. Taylor now owns
her Masters. I reached out to Scooter for comment, and

(04:02):
he told me he's genuinely happy for her. He's also
stepped down as CEO of HIBE and is thinking seriously
about what comes next. And maybe he already sensed it
back in April when we recorded, because when I asked
him about the future, it was clear he had a
direction in mind. But what struck me most in this
interview wasn't the business arc or even the drama. It

(04:25):
was how tightly he had wrapped his self worth around work,
the unraveling that came when that identity no longer held,
and the rebuilding that he's doing now in his spiritual life,
in his parenting, in the kind of man he wants
to be. This conversation isn't a defense. It's not a
puff piece, and it's not an expose. It's something in between.

(04:49):
I asked about Taylor about the rumors in her lyrics,
whether he's talked to his kids about it. I asked
about Kanye about justin about the weight of being responsible
for other people's careers. It's all in there, But so
is the other story, the one we don't always leave
room for, the one about worth, unraveling and repair. We

(05:11):
often want people to be one thing or the other
hero or villain, right or wrong? But what if we
allowed people to be whole? What if we made space
for contradiction, for change, for complexity. Scooter is known for
getting the deal done. So the question we're circling today

(05:32):
is what if the most important deal you make is
with yourself? This is his answer. It's time to question
everything with Scooter bron Scooter. There are documentaries and headlines
and Reddit threads, fan theories all written about you. I
think we as the public get quotes here or there,

(05:54):
but we never get your full story from you. A
lot has changed in your life. You've stepped away from
managing artists. Before we get into what the future holds,
which I am really curious about for you, I feel
like we have to go back a little bit. And
the one word that keeps coming up and all your
interviews is ambitious. And I feel like your ambition could
have been pointed in a few different directions, but you

(06:16):
pointed it towards music. When did you fall in love
with music?

Speaker 3 (06:20):
I think I've always been in love with music. My
first job in entertainment was a dancer. I was a
dancer at bar Mitzo's and weddings. I was discovered at
a teen club with my friend Dale back in the day.
It was actually a teen club and I think it
was Mount.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Vernon in New York.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
And you know, I've always I DJ'ed. I was dancing.
Then I started throwing parties when I was in college.
But music is something that always no matter what in
my life. It was like music and basketball were the
two things that could take me out of the thought
process of life and keep me in the moment and
give me just joy in the moment. When I was nineteen,

(06:54):
I was in my freshman dorm room and I read
a book.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Called The Operator about David.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Geffen, and he is not a fan of the book,
but I saw it as someone who is flawed who
became extraordinary and I'm flawed. Were all flawed, and it
made me think like maybe I can do this. And
I remember there's actually one distinct moment I'm in my
dorm room and I'm reading and I can't split this
book down, and it's talking about David trying to sign

(07:19):
John Lennon's solo career, and I start literally screaming in
my bed, like just go to Yogano. I know everybody's
being hard on her, but she has his ear go
to Yogono. And I turned the page and David was
the only one to go to Yogono and he signed
a solo career and it made me think I can
do this.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
I think this way.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
I was in Atlanta. I think the way David thought,
you know, think, you know, to think outside the box
would seem natural to me is never really what the
way everyone else thinks. And I was in Atlanta, Georgia
in two thousand. It was just an epic place to
be for music. You had Dallas Austin, Jermain Dupree, outcast,
Ti Ludacris coming up, like Jazzy Faye was a guy

(07:58):
on the radio who had this young girl seventeen sixteen
Sierra that he was, you know, put out the song
one two Step like it was all happening in that
era of the early two thousands, and Usher is you know, usher,
and like it was exciting. And I got to be
in the streets of Atlanta coming up with these people.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
I heard you were driving a purple Mercedes.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
I bought a purple Benz on eBay cash so I
could fake it till I make it at the clubs.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Did it work?

Speaker 3 (08:22):
It got me in the door with a lot of people,
and people still talk about that Benz. And when I
was twenty years old, I'd done some stuff for this
this guy Chris love Alava on the radio. He had
a manager named Shaka Zulu and Jeff, two brothers. Shaka
was the program director at Hot ninety seven. Chris was
the big morning show, Chris love Alova, and he had
a rap named Ludacris and he was coming up as

(08:44):
a rapper and he had this song, you know, fantasy,
and and I was throwing parties for them, and kind
of like people knew me for.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Throwing my parties.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
And then this guy Jermaine Duprie, it was like you
got more potential than parties. And within six months I
was running marketing for So So deaf and I was
twenty years old.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
What made you good at marketing? In other interviews you
talk about how you were getting on a plane with
your main dupre like presenting marketing plans to him.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
The reason I was good at marketing, the reason I
was if I was good, you know, but the reason
I thought you were listen, the reason I had a
successful career with marketing, and also A and R and
making records is because my belief that I am not extraordinary.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's actually the opposite.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
I believe extraordinary people know how to speak to a
small amount of extraordinary people.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
I'm ordinary as hell.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
I like, you know, what makes me move usually makes
millions of other people move. What makes me tick usually
makes millions of other people tick. So my gift was
just what my parents gave me, which was stupid confidence
that what I like maybe other people liked. I think

(09:54):
that's the difference. Most people have the gift of being
able to speak to the masses, they're just afraid to
find out. I think the way my parents raised me
and my siblings, they were like, if there's no leader
in the room, be a.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Leader, you know.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
So I think that is how I was able to
kind of put my ideas forward. And I also was
in a unique place where, like the Internet was really
taken off and social media was taking off, and.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I was native to that.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
I was that age where like first on Facebook, first
on MySpace, you know, first to use YouTube, like that generation.
So you know, having that love of music, having you know,
being native to the new technology. It was just a
perfect storm. And being in the city of Atlanta, where
you were close to the culture.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
But kudos to you for being willing to adapt it
because a lot of people just shied away from the
Internet and didn't want to be a part of it.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Look.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
I saw it as a way to reach a lot
of people, and I saw it as a way to
convey a message to a lot of people. And that's,
you know, one of the hardest things in marketing. You
could have a really good idea, but how do you
get it out to the masses and how do you
expand it and grow it?

Speaker 2 (10:54):
And I was.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
So afraid of failure at that point in my life.
I was leaning into all these things and it really
was And I think when you're younger.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
You think you're manifesting everything.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
You think like, I'm going to make this happen, make
this happen. And as you get older, you start to
realize how lucky you are to be in the position
you're in that yes, there's a little bit of manifestation,
but there's also a lot of you know, the universe
and God putting you in a position to do that stuff.
And I think that's where you understand like, as you
get older, it's not you necessary as doing You're kind

(11:24):
of a custodian of that energy, you know. And I
think if you get blessed enough to be a custodia
that energy, you have to treat it as such.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
You're like a vessel, is what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
You said earlier when you read the Operator you felt
like somebody flawed could make it and could do it.
Did you feel flawed when you were in college?

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, I mean I think so. Well.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
I think we're all flawed. I think we're all perfectly flawed,
you know.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
And I don't know if everyone's aware of that in college,
So it's interesting to me.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
That you, yes, they are. They might not say it.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
I don't think I was saying it that way when
I was younger. The truth is is what drives you
as an entrepreneur is sometimes the thing that makes you
not great at intimacy, you know, like what makes you
good at business is not always best in intimacy. When
you're great at business, sometimes you're always thinking about the
next move, You're always thinking about the next day.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Because you're so afraid of losing.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
You're so afraid of something coming and gets you don't
know how to be present right and at that age,
I didn't feel enough. I didn't feel like, you know,
I was worthy of anything. I felt like I needed
to earn being worthy. I didn't think That's probably why
I went by Scooter since I was eighteen years old.
It was like a nickname when I was younger, right,
and almost like I took it on because I didn't
think Scott was enough.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
But it's interesting to me because you had this dichotomy
where you're saying you didn't feel like you were enough,
and yet there was something inside you that was willing
to bet on yourself and say I'm gonna do this
like in Atlanta, and then when you found Justine.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Incredible driver insecurity.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Insecurity is an amazing driver for business because when you're
insecure that you're not enough, what do you do?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
You build to be enough.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
You build a life for yourself that other people can respect,
because deep down you don't know if you're worthy.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
And I was going through that as a.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Young person of I thought, well, the only thing that
makes me worthy of anything is building and building and building.
And at that point in my life, I was very
I was working from a competitive mind of like I
have to achieve otherwise I'm a loser, and you know,
being older. Now, I'm in a place now where, like
I move from a creative mind where there is no end,

(13:28):
there's no winning.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
There's no losing.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
I just get to create because I've gotten to a
good place here, which I'm sure we'll talk about, because
there was a lot of trials and tribulations and being
misunderstood and hard times. And it's never the success that
teaches you how to love this. It's being misunderstood, it's
being ridiculed, it's sitting in your place and just being like,

(13:50):
this feels unfair, and then you have to actually look
inward and realize the only thing that's actually going to
overcome it all is like looking inside and being good.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
I'm so glad you said word misunderstood, because that's a
word that kept coming back for me as I was
preparing for this interview. So I want to get to it.
But there was something that your friend Jay Williams said
in an NPR interview and you touched on it a
little bit. He said, you can spot talent with an
X ray like precision. Is it a feeling you get?
I'm interested in that.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
It's like falling in love. Say more, you can make
a plan to fall in love. You can say I'm
going to meet the love of my life this year,
I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have two point five
kids in a pick e fence. Life does not work
that way, right, And for me finding talent, finding stars,
it was like it's like a It's like that. It's

(14:39):
like you meet someone and you just know.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
So it's this feeling. It's like where do you feel
it in your body?

Speaker 3 (14:44):
It's just it's almost like a download. It's almost like
a cheat code sometimes where you know. Sometimes I'm like
wanting to figure it out, but sometimes it's like, hey,
just letting you know this is it has nothing to
do with you. I'm just giving you the heads up
because you know what to do. Like as I said,
you're almost like a custodian of this energy. It almost

(15:04):
feels like it's not even coming from me. It's like
someone giving me the heads up. And then I feel
this certainty and it almost like I get a downloaded.
I could see everything that's to come and I know
where to go. And I think sometimes that can be
with a talent.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Sometimes that could be with a company, Sometimes that could
be with entrepreneur.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
It would be nice that happened, you know, in my
love life again. But like I said, you can't make
plans for it. It shows up when it's supposed to.
I was just very fortunate that, for some reason I
was placed to see it a bunch of different times.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
There's an interview magazine article where Donald Glover interviews himself
and he said, are you ever worried about staying relevant?
Donald asked himself and his answer was, I'm never worried
about relevance because I have vision. That's a big word.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
I think things change as you get older and you
have different experiences. And I was with two great entrepreneurs
yesterday morning and young people building a really great company
not in entertainment, and we were having a very interesting
conversation and we talked about this place of self work
that I've gone the last five six years.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
And one of them said that he was nervous.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
He wants to do this self work, but what if
it takes away the dog in him?

Speaker 2 (16:21):
What it takes away that energy?

Speaker 3 (16:23):
And I kind of smiled because I was like, well,
you'll do it when you're supposed to, because you won't
care about that when you have new priorities and I
promise you, if that's supposed to be there, it will
be there, and all you're doing is delaying it, and
eventually in the universe smacks you around the way it
did with me to.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Like it's time.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
Did it take the dog away?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (16:40):
Absolutely not. It just gave me an opportunity to enjoy
being here.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
You know. It taught me how to be present.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
It taught me I had to lose for me to
understand what I have and for me to find myself again.
And I wouldn't I wish other people would figure it
out fast. I needed to slap in the face a
little bit. But when you talk about this idea of
it or relevance, I think you just show up every
single day and you can make long term plans and

(17:06):
then the universe makes its own plans and you just
try to be on the journey. Like my favorite poem Ithaca,
it's this concept.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Of like traveling. It's by Cafafi.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
It's this idea of traveling to the island of Ithaca
and the Greek islands and all the things that you're
going to see and experience along the way, and when
you finally reach your destination Ithaca, if you find her poor.
She did not fool you because it was never about
getting to Ithaca. It was always about the journey. And
then you understand what ethica means. And I think it's

(17:37):
a metaphor for life, like this idea of vision early
at least it's cool experiences, school stories has what you
know has me sitting here with you, and all the
questions you're gonna ask that are gonna make me comfortable
and uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
How are you feeling so far?

Speaker 2 (17:48):
I'm fine. At the end of the day.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
The only thing that really matters is how you see
yourself and how you see your relationship with the people
that really love you.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
And it's you know, the question I ask myself is like,
why would I even do this?

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Like, you know, it's going to be speaking to a
lot of people who don't know me.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
And you know, what I've learned over.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
The years is both the praise I received and many
points in my career and they hate I received the
man in my career, neither of them were deserved. The
people praising me didn't know me, yeah, and the people
hating me didn't know me.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
So a lot of music managers operate behind the scenes,
and you were a really public figure. Was that purposeful?
Was that a business decision?

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yes, it actually is because of Outcast.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Outcasts had a manager and they won the album for
Album of the Year. It was the first hip hop
group to ever went out of the Year. And that
year there was a big party in Atlanta, and their
manager was on the bill of the party with another executive.
And the following year Outcast broke up and that executive

(18:50):
came back and he did a party, but the manager
wasn't on the party ever again. And I realized, too
much of his career I was nineteen twenty years old
in this too much of his career was correlated to
the decision making and the success or failure of someone else.
So I decided that while I wanted to build up acts,
I wanted to build up myself so that I could

(19:13):
maintain and keep going. And I have things that have
been great about that, because you know, when acts of
mine have gone through really hard times, I've been able
to mate a power base to maintain them.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
And help them and build other acts.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
But at the same time, I also, as you know,
became a very easy target because in this business, you know,
it became the big, bad executive.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Did you enjoy the recognition?

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Ever when it was productive.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
I'm much more of a homebody than people realize. Like
I can go and have a good time, but I
like watching movies and hanging out with my kids and
like just being home, and I still hang out with
my best friends.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
I was eleven years old for the most part.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
So yes, I liked it because any human being, like
when you're being praised or people appreciate what you do,
that feeds the ego, It feeds the soul, and it
feels really nice. So I can't say I did not.
I did enjoy that. But at the same time, I
liked it when you could give away tickets, you know,
when when the power was used for like the most

(20:14):
influential things in my life with that were being able
to like, you know, respond with Arianna to the Manchester attack,
to help the kids from Parkland with March for Our Lives,
to you know, help my friend Bumbee with a you know,
a fundraiser and a telethon for the hurricane victims of
Florida and Texas, or to simply you know, join a board.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
Of a charity and like helps make a wish.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
You know, It's like there are perks that come with it,
and then there are negatives. But in my opinion, if
you use it properly, the perks far outweigh the.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Negative, so you never wish you could undo that.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
I mean, there were definitely times where I was like,
this ain't fun.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
You know, you got to you gotta be strong for
some of the stuff that comes when you're in the
public eye, some of it, like I don't want for
my kids. But I also don't think I'm like a
well known celebrity, you know. I think there's people who
know what I've done. There's people who don't know what
I've done and assume they know. I think that it
served me well for the things that I want to achieve,

(21:14):
but I don't necessarily need it anymore.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Would you be sad if it went away?

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Not at all. I mean, as long as I got
my kids and my friends, I'm good.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
What does it take to be a really good manager?
I was looking up like David Geffen's model, which is
very similar to your model. It's more of like an
equity model, irving asof did like a touring model. More so,
everybody had a different vibe. You were the first one
to do this equity model plus be a public figure.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
We were.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, look, we were very successful and the acts that
we worked with were incredibly successful. Yeah, and everyone did
incredibly well across the board.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
And I'm really proud of the work that we did.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
And you know, sometimes it's hard because you know when
you leave, you know there's people from the outside they
wone have re vision. It says you this that. But
at the end of the day, I got in love
for everybody I worked with and nothing to say negative.
I'm very appreciative of those twenty three years. And I
wrote about it like I did a post and wrote
all the explanations why I stopped managing. It was hard
because there was a year where legally I wasn't allowed

(22:15):
to say why I stopped managing, and everyone had all
their assumptions and stories and this person left in this
and I'm like, I lost forty three clients in one day,
but legally I couldn't until we resolve certain things. And
then when I finally could, it just felt nice to
do it, not so much for everyone else, But once
I said it publicly, I held myself accountable that I
wouldn't go back because I knew I didn't want to.

(22:38):
I think when you're asking me, like what it takes
to be a good manager, I think it differs. I
think some managers aren't amazing at torry. Luckily I had
people on my team who were. Some managers are amazing
at croudding the deals. Some are you know, amazing at marketing, you.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Know, building a little sitt for you though.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
I think we were really good at marketing. We had
a really good sporting team. I was one manager who
built an amazing team. You know, I stood on the
shoulders of a lot of people. You know, Jules is
one of the best branding people brand deals out there.
Alison is you know, was amazing at like dot in
the eyes, crossing the t's and like you know, running
the touring.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Jam me it was more like EQ or IQ.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think it was a combination.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
I think like I could cut deals and we would
do deals and no one had ever done before. But
also it was a lot of building relationships, being there
in the trenches, having understanding and being empathetic to what
they were going through. And many times I've heard other
managers tell me you got too close, you know, you
had too close of a relationship like that was you know,
you know, something you shouldn't have done. But I don't

(23:38):
have regrets, you know, because at the end of the day,
relationships ebb and flow, family ebbs and flows, and those
people always be family.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
But I think what was interesting is not what made
me a good manager, but in the end what made
me a bad manager. When I finally did the self work,
I knew my time as a manager was coming to
an end. What made me a great manager for twenty
years was my incessant need for them to tell me

(24:05):
that I was enough for them to tell me, like,
you're doing.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
A good job.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
So I had self worth. And when I stepped out
and was in a tough place in my personal life
and everything else, and I chose to step away, And
that was the first step, no phone, no email for
the first time in twenty five years, and really go
back into my childhood and dig deep into who I
actually am. When I went to that place, I never

(24:32):
ever let anyone call me Scott.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
I was only Scooter.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
I never felt like a Scott when I got out.
I loved my name Scott. I appreciated Scooter, but I
knew Scott had actually made him and that little boy
was back in charge.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
But I can imagine your clients needed you to tell
them that they were great, Like it was a codependent
relationship undred percent.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
But when I got out, I wanted to be there
for myself for the first time, and I wanted to
be there for my kids, and so much of my
life for twenty years was dedicated to them. And when
I got out, I just wasn't a good manager the
way I was before. And and I know that in fact,
you know, at the end, Ariana actually said it to me.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
She was like, you know, you haven't really been the.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Manager you were for the last couple of years. And
she was right, you know, and she deserved better at
that point. And you know, my friend Brandon Creed is
her manager now and he's crushing it and she's happy
and she's crushing it, and I'm so happy for both
of them.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Like, honestly, were you burnt out? I think it wasn't
part of being burnt out.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
But I also think the course of all the relationships,
like it wasn't like just me, it's they could see
it too, and their needs, like they deserve to have
someone that's the job.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
You're supposed to be there for them.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
And when I wasn't, you know, in that position, if
my soul wasn't in it the same way. So I
think it was a mutual thing in the end of
like an understanding like this is.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
And I've talked about it.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
We talked about twenty three years in the post and
I spoke about it all. But I think nothing makes
me happier than to see each one of them continue
to succeed.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Right. I've heard you say you like seeing everybody win.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, I like seeing everybody wins. Then everybody can pay
for their own vacation. I call my vacation theory. But
the other reason I like seeing everybody win is no
matter what it's like, it's what me and my ex
wife talk about, Like we have three amazing kids and
we're tied to each other forever. That's family, and I
want to see her do well because that's my family.
No matter what, whether we're a couple or not, we're
still co parents. We're still family forever. And that's the

(26:26):
way I feel about the acts. It's like there's gonna
be an ebbs and flows, and you know, you look
back at history and certain people feel this and other
people come in different people's years and say all kinds
of things. But at the end of the day, for
me at least, it's all love.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
It's no matter what.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
We did that, and we did that together and no
one can take that away, So you know, why not?
Like Dave Little Dicky, he and I had a dinner
and he was talking to me about a relationship with
someone else from his past in his career and I
managed him for a while and he was frustrated, and
I said, listen, does that person want to be your
business life anymore?

Speaker 2 (27:00):
He said no. I was like, do you want them
in your life anymore? He goes no.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
I was like, then, why can't you just celebrate who
you were once to each other and let the rest go?
And he did that, and I think that's what I
try to do with all these people in my life.
It's like there's so much noise out there in the
world that we're in, especially in this town, in this business,
everyone seems to have an opinion. I'm just going to
celebrate who we awre to each other always.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
I like that. I want to talk about your first client,
justin Biebert. You guys had such a ride together. I
don't think Asher Roth was my first that's a great call.
Was Justin your second Yes, Okay, I want to talk
about actually.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Know I had one called Cato, and I know them
called the Bama Boys. You just know the ones that
worked really big.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
I want to talk about your biggest clients.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Okay. I Love College. That was my first hit and
that was the first success. And then Justin.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I was in college partying to I Love College.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
You know, Justin was in the studio when we cut it,
in the makeshift studio behind in the basement because Asher,
you used to literally babysit Justine me sometimes because Justin
was so young, and he would go hang out at
Asher's house and they'd like play you know, Mario Kart
and like watch Justin hilarious.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I mean it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Like I have a picture of like all of us
on the stoop of the Greenhouse where like we recorded
Asher stuff and I put them up to live and
right down the street in the townhouse is where I
put Justin and his mom and.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
It was like this makeshift crew of like us trying
to make it.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Okay, So I'm sorry it was my mistake.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
You're right, I will forgive you.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Justin was not your first client, but I want to
talk about your ride with him. I don't think we've
seen fandom like that since the Beatles. That was really wild.
Why are you laughing?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
I'm laughing because the Paul McCartney, Yeah, I think it
was like the first or second Grammys we ever went to.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
He like saw me in the hallway.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
I'll never forget this, and he goes, you're Scooter right,
and I was like yeah, and he goes, I'm one
of the only people in the world who knows what
you're going through it And for me.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
I was so excited because I share a birthday with
Paul McCartney. And when I got to tell him we
share a birthday.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
For me, that's incredibly exciting to share a birthday with pumccartney.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Turns out didn't really excite him that he shared a
birthday with me.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
He kind of was like, that's nice.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
I don't think he's walking around like I want to
tellim scoter we share a birthday. So I was like, oh, yeah,
I guess the other way. It's not really as exciting,
but I.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Think that's great because that was your second Grammy, so
it was still all new and exciting to you.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, by the wait As long as I'm seeing it
through the eyes as someone who's experiencing it the first time,
it's always fun for me.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
There's videos all over the internet of you guys running
around giving out tickets to people who either couldn't get
tickets couldn't afford tickets, and you hand them front row seats.
They're crying. You guys donated a dollar from every ticket
sold on Justin's Believe Tour to support Pencils of Promise.
During the Justice World Tour, Bieber launched the Justice and

(29:38):
Action Initiative. He's the talk recording artist for granting wishes
for Make a Wish. Sure, when I think of philanthropic musicians,
I always think of Dolly Parton, but I'm not sure
I've seen a young person do it on that scale.
What about the give back was so important to you guys.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
I don't think you get the rest without it. You know,
my grandparents say, if your cup is being filled with
water by God, you better start pouring in and other
cups before it just makes a mess and spills all
over the place. If we keep getting that energy, we
have to share it. And that was always something important
to my mother. It was important with In my culture.
It's called sedaka just giving and charity, and it's biblical,

(30:18):
like it literally says, you know, in the Torah, in
the Bible, it literally says, when getting your crops, you're
supposed to leave the field at the end untouched so
people can come in and get some of the.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Crops, right. And I'm a very firm believer in that.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
And I'm very grateful that Justin and Ariana and Demi
and all these artists, Jay Balvin, all these artists I've
gotten to work with over the years, all them said yes.
And we brought in SHAWNA Nepp, who now runs our
family foundation, but she's always run philanthropic and still does
for most of the artists I've worked with and these
you know, families, and she's just absolutely amazing. And you know,

(30:57):
our job is to make it and her job is
to give it a and that's just something really amazing.
So I'm really grateful to all of the artists who
signed up to do those in credit Blacks. I'm grateful
to Justin for how many wishes he made over those
tours and how many kids he made happy. And you know, now,
like I'm very fortunate I get to serve on the
national board to make a wish, and whenever I go
to a board meeting, Leslie, our CEO, who is incredible,

(31:19):
I always tell her these board meetings I benefit more
than it, you know, than the kids, because getting to
hear the stories, getting to witness these wishes fills me up.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
And the greatest thing you can.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Do is give, because it's like I promise you, you make
another dollar, you're going to be looking for more and
trying to find out how to be happy.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
You give something, you're going to get closer to that happiness.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
I think now you see Chance theor rapper, he gave
a million dollars to the Chicago Public school system. Taylor
Swift would like give people their college education, their tuition.
Do you think it's fair to say that you guys
changed the culture of pop stardom and geared it a
little bit more towards philanthropy.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Look, that's a really beautiful thing to say, But I
think the Civil rights movement was paid for by Sidney
Poitier and people like him. I think that artists throughout
history have stepped up to help others. I don't think
that started with us.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
I think we were inspired by the people before us.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
You've had time away from that part of your life,
what do you look back on and feel the most
joy about.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Well, I also didn't know an adult life was like this.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
I've been managing since I was nineteen, and like full
time since I was nineteen, like two phones, answering every
phone calling it. Yeah, so like the last two and
a half years not managing because I announced it was
I guess a year and a half ago, the twenty
three years, but it's really been two and a half
years since I made this decision.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
I didn't know you could have like a weekend.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
I didn't know you could actually like binge watch an
entire series on Netflix.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, it's epic.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Like I'm loving it, and I'm still like I got
the hunger again to go do other stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
But it's been really nice.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
To be so present with my children and be so
present with my friends.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
And my friends talk to me about it.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
They're like, you use some of these skills to like
make sure we're all good at stagecoach or if we
go to Coachell or something like that, But like used
to use these skills in other ways, and it's kind
of fun for you to use them.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
For us, and it's been really nice.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
When I look back at the career, it's a less
small moments and then really big philanthropic moments. It's like
a little moment on a road trip or being in
a restaurant in you know, Europe on a promo trip
when we were first starting and having laughs with the

(33:38):
original crew. It's you know, watching Marcus Mumford come out
at the Manchester Show and do the moment of silence
and seeing sixty five thousand people completely silent, you know,
when you didn't even know if they were going to
show up because of you know, acts of terror. It's
it's little things like backyard concerts that no one will
ever see, you know, with a guitar being a passed

(34:01):
around a fire pit. It's it's all the things that
made all the nonsense worth it, you know, all the
things that make me happy when I look back, I
would have done for free. And being able to tell
the stories in private settings when people ask or sometimes

(34:21):
that's the best moment because you take it for granted.
You almost act like, you know, you're feeling the injuries
of it sometimes and you don't realize how many great
things came from it. And how many beautiful moments and
how many experiences, and honestly, it's just a lot of love.
Like you're looking backly even like being on the road
in the beginning, and like pulling into Walmart's at two

(34:41):
o'clock in the morning, and the things that you'll see
in a Walmart at two o'clock in the morning in
the middle of America epic epic?

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Do you have any regrets about that time?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
I think everything happens exactly the way it should.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
However, I don't want to use mental health as a
crutch because I think too many times people do that.
I think people say, oh, mental health, mental health. It's
almost like they don't want any adversity in their life.
And I don't think unless you take responsibility for your life,
you actually learn or grow. But I do think the
regret I have is not understanding taking self work time

(35:20):
for both myself and encouraging it for the people I
work with. I think we all could have awaited a
lot of pain. I think we were so young, and
we all moved so fast that we didn't know you know,
and by I didn't.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Figure that part out.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
You're moving so fast and you're having all this success
and you're not realizing that toll it could take on
you long term of not being present completely to the
moment of all the pressures that come with it that
you're not prepared for when they finally hit. And I
think understanding now at this age the importance of one

(35:59):
to two weeks year where you really take the time
to go inward and build a foundation for yourself so
when those waves come you can swim through them. I
didn't understand that lesson until I was older and I
had to deal with hard things, and I wish I
knew it earlier and I would have been able to
encourage it for everyone I was working with as well.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
That makes sense. So you pluck someone from Canada off
of YouTube, you guys have this insane ride together, and
then the working relationship has since come to an end.
When did you guys know it was the end of
that relationship, Because to me, it must sort of be
like an intimate partner, like you just wake up one

(36:36):
day and feel it like it's over or was it
a slow role?

Speaker 3 (36:42):
I just think, listen, a lot of things happened, and
I think over time, each one of us is making
decisions for our own personal life. And sometimes you drift.
Sometimes a lot of people get in between. Sometimes, you know,
I think the story's not not in a working relationship,
but I think that's what happens with relationships like that.

(37:05):
They ebb and they flow, and they go up and down,
and sometimes they go into one direction, sometimes they go another,
but you always keep your heart open to the fact
that that's family and it goes up and down and
you have each other's back in the end. And I
think that you know, for me, my life went a
certain direction where I was done managing and I wanted

(37:27):
something else for my life. And I think his life
when a certain direction where he was ready to really
control his own destiny. And I think both are appropriate
and I respect completely. You know that he is his
own man now and that that you know, he wants
to build his career moving forward the way he sees fit,
and he should same way. I respect the fact that

(37:49):
I want to build my life a certain way moving forward,
and I think you do so with love and respect,
and you don't really Sometimes you it's you know, with
other people it was like, Okay, this is the day,
and you point to it, and other times you really
it just gets there. One day, and I think you
treat both with respect.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Was it tough.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
At times, but like I said, I feel like everything
happens in the timing it should. Yeah, you know, the
stuff that I was dealing with in my personal life
was much tougher, you know, divorced with kids. I wouldn't
wish on your worst enemy, even with someone like my ex.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Who we did so we did it with such respect
for each other. But I don't think stories like end
the way you're describing. I think.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Their chapters, you know, and real relationships, you know, it's
just you're in a different chapter. You're each in a
different point in your life, and sometimes it comes together.
It's like a good friend, you know what I mean.
Like sometimes you could be ah, other times you could
be like, I'm talking to you in years you pick
it up like that, you know.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
It's just I don't I don't think.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
I think the only thing that's definitively ending is a lifetime,
you know, So the rest of it is you never
never know.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Well, the way you're describing it makes it seem like
you're hopeful that it'll come back together.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
Is not the business way, right, I said, I'm hopeful
in the fact of like, he's not done and I'm
not done cheering for him.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
You guys created such a strong fan base, and recently
his fans have been concerned about his health. People are
speculating USA Today said Justin Bieber's crashing out. There's videos
of him at Coachella where fans raised concerned about his appearance.
What goes through your mind when you hear me say
that or see those videos that.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
People should if they really respect him, they should leave
him and his family alone.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I think he has a newborn child. I think he's married.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
I think that that life is not easy, and if
they really did care, they would give him an opportunity
to be a human being.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, there was a moment. We talked about this a
little bit earlier, but there was a moment when you yourself
made headlines last year. We repeatedly saw these headlines and
it made it seemed like things were leaking. We're either
an artist on your roster was coming out or leaking
that they were leaving your management company, and it seemed
as though you were just taking hit after hit. Yeah,

(40:08):
how did it feel at that point because you mentioned
you were under NDA, so you couldn't say.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
Anything, Well, I also had a dream, so I couldn't
say anything. I could I was under nda. But my
publicists could have, like for our company, could have said, hey,
that's not true.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
But I wouldn't let her why because I had a dream.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
What?

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, I had a dream?

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Can you share?

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah? I one of I'm not going to go into names.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
One of my biggest clients came to me and said
that they wanted to spread their wings and do something different.
But I also knew that that was appropriate at the
time because I felt the same way quite some time,
but I was too afraid to say it out loud
because I was too afraid of who am I without them? Okay,
So when this happened, it was almost a catalyst for
me realizing, like it's now and I was on a

(40:49):
vacation with my best friends who really in my divorce
picked me up, and I had never done like a
boy's trip in my entire life, my entire adult life,
Like this was the first one. And I took all
of them and like we went to Europe and I
took them on a trip and like I'm talking, he's
gonna love this because I'm stand in the pocket, Like
I got a buddy Paul Brown from Bridgeport. He loves
when I say his name, and you know, Mike and

(41:11):
Jay and Buk and like, you know, all these guys
who like came to the trip. Dave Usher joined because
we've adopted him into the childhood group.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
But some of these guys had never been to.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Europe, and like I was like, I'm taking you guys
because you were there for me and I want to
do something for you. And it was one of the
greatest trips in my life other than being with my children.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Mm hm.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
And during this trip, this artist said this to me
that maybe we should change something, and I realized, I'm like, actually,
they're right, Like I've been avoiding this for quite some time.
And I went and I actually took a nap and
I had a very vivid dream and I have a
tattoo on the back of my arm about this dream.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
What does the tattoos say?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
It's not what it says.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
It is a man standing in a giant flame and
the flame cannot touch him, and inside of him.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Is the full universe.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
And basically what the dream said to me is you
are trying to navigate the perfect ending, and if you
do that, you're gonna get slapped in the face because
that's not what we want for you. You have to pull
the band aid. You have to stop managing and do
what you know you should have done for quite some time,
and then you have to go silent. If you do that,
I will let you have the rest of this ten

(42:22):
day vacation. No one will interrupt, which has never happened
in my entire career, and you will have the best
time in your life, and it will show you what
your life could be on the other side. But on
the final day, all hell is going to break loose
and everyone's gonna say they all left you, and people
are going to completely misunderstand this whole thing. So I
wake up it's vivid, and I tell my best friend
Jay Williams, who's on the.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Trip, And Jay's like, dude, no one cares.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
Your manager's not gonna happen like that, And I was like,
I'm telling you, so we the rest of the trip
is amazing. No one bothers. I make the calls that day. Yeah,
I'm no longer managing. It's done. All the clients know.
I've like had the phone. I spend a whole day
making call. The trip is incredible, best trip of my life,
loved by my friends, loving on my friends. It was

(43:07):
a beautiful, beautiful trip. It's one of the greatest trips
all of us joke.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Around, will ever have.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Okay, the final day, we're flying home and my phone
just starts to go and literally all hell is breaking loose.
The press is saying every client's leaving me. People are
making t shirts over her to La. I was managed
by Scooter Braun and I left him like it was crazy.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
And the publicist is calling me and being like, we
gotta respond.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
We got and I said you can't because if I do,
then I'm gonna get more trouble.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
I'm gonna get slapped. I had this dream and they're like,
what are you talking about. I'm like, you have to
let it go.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
It's gonna last for a week or two and then
it's going to disappear. And they're like, no, we need
to say something.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
We need to say something.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
And sure enough I stood in the fire. It didn't
touch me. It all burned down around me. All my
worst fears of what would happen if I stopped managing
took place. And then after two weeks and went away
and it wasn't that bad and the dream was real
and it sounds crazy and I've actually never told that
story publicly, but that's why I didn't respond.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
It wasn't any about in India.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
I couldn't write twenty three years for another year because
we had to finish a lot of the contracts because
like lots of different reasons, right, but responding, hey, this
isn't true, I just couldn't because of this dream.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
And then I went and got the tattoo because of it.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
And have you ever listened to a dream before? Or
this was the first you have?

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yeah, dreams have guided me in my life a bunch
of time.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Really, Yeah, when they're that vivid, yeah, I think I think. Yeah,
I think they should since you were a.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, sometimes there are daydreams sometimes of this, but that
was really really vivid, and it sucked because it was
against everything I wanted to do and it was like
it was hard and it wasn't fun, and it wasn't like, hey,
we're going to you know, this is going to be
an easy dream for you. We're asking you to do
something completely out of your character. You have to let go.
You're not allowed to manipulate this. You're not allowed to
try and control this. You have to let go and

(44:48):
let it burn. And that was really difficult. But the
crazier it got and the more people talked, the more
conviction I had that the dream was true. So it
was like the more people said, and the more ou
to hand. I mean, they were like Carlie ray Jepson
left Scooter Brown. I didn't manage Carly in like five years.

(45:09):
Carly's called me, like, what am I having to do
with this? I'm like, I don't know, Like like you know,
Dina Menzel, I'm like, it was starting to get crazy
people I hadn't managed recently, and and the crazier got
the more I was like, God is good and it
is real.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
And like trust.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
So for the record, your clients did not leave you.
One did, but the rest didn't. You left your clients.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
No, not that I left my clients.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
We had an honest conversation about really where I had
been for quite some time, and some were like what
does this mean? And will you still help? And this
that and the other. But you know, for the record,
I don't ever want to disch. I didn't leave anybody.
We left each other.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
It was time.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Okay, that's a wild dream, did you.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
I think. I think the reason is also crazy because
no one could imagine that like I would want that,
you know, like no one imagined like when you're in
that position, that you actually.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Don't want to do that job anymore.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
But you know who wasn't surprised.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Every one of my close friends, Okay, they no one
checked on me because when they saw it, they've known
for years how I felt.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
So they understood. But I didn't leave anybody.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Those are the greatest people to work with in the world,
like the most talented people in the world.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
It was just time.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Did you ever feel betrayed by a client?

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, And I'm sure they felt betrayed by me. You know,
I don't want to.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
I think it's easy to point fingers at someone else
and say you did me dirty.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
You know. People hurt people hurt people.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah, you know, and I'm sure like when people have
heard things over the years and misconstrued or someone gets
in their ear, you know, they can feel, oh, he
did this or he did that shit the internet think
so I'm like all powerful, like and I can do
all kinds of things I have nothing to do with.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
But I think.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
I try to have empathy in every situation because I
felt betrayed before. I try to imagine if they're acting
that way, probably they're feeling the same way somehow, And
I think it's just easier to not hold onto that energy.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
You manage Kanye West for instant.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
And a little while. How long it was like two
three years.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
So your grandparents are Holocaust survivors. You stand up for
Jewish people around the world, and Kanye West is now
an anti Semite and self proclaimed Nazi. I'm curious what
it feels like to have tried to help guide someone
who now stands in opposition of so many of your
deepest values.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
You know, the last time he spoke about me, he
actually like he did a Charlottage interview and there's like
a clip of it, and he talked about the relationship
we had where I helped him, and he actually says, like,
this Jewish man helped me because two of my brothers
are black, and he was talking about my relationship. My
brothers allowed me to have an understanding on how to
talk to a black man because I have family that's black,

(47:55):
and he was saying how I helped.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Him over the years.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
And then three four years later, the narrative that you're
discussing started. I don't know him anymore, and I think
the person that I knew wasn't someone who says those things.
And I think sometimes the hardest thing to do with
someone you care about is more in them while they're

(48:18):
still here. And for me, the person that I knew
is not the person that I'm seeing, So I don't
have a relationship anymore.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
And I'd rather.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
Stand proudly and who I am and who my people
are and be gracious and kind to all people, then
be a part of that.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
So I don't have any ill will.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
I have no interest in turning into the monster that
people you know with anti Semitism or hate want you
to be. I'd rather be someone who is focused on
positivity and being damn proud of who I am and
who my grandparents were and who my people are, and
not fall for this narrative that I'm seeing all two

(48:59):
prevalence October seventh, And that's why I'm not scared or
interested in talking about anti Semitism as much as I
am in talking about what a beautiful, kind and loving
people we are and it is to be a Jewish
person of Jewish faith and Jewish culture, and I'd rather
I tell someone instead of like, don't say that about me.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
I'd rather say, come to Shabbat and see who we are.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
So you know, I think he can be reached, though.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
I don't know and I don't know him, and I
think right now I have three beautiful kids that need
a dad to focus on them and make sure they're
prepared and strong in this world, and.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
That's going to be my focus.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Does any part of you ever wish that you didn't
manage any of these people?

Speaker 3 (49:44):
No, I love I love my life, and I think
my life has been like almost like this weird Forest
Gump journey.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Of like how the hell did I get in that situation?

Speaker 3 (49:54):
I mean I got to like travel the world with Justin,
with Arianna, but also with like side doing Gangnam Style
and like Harley Racing called me maybe, and the wanted
doing Glad you came and seeing Tory Kelly sing at
a coffee shop, to winning Grammys to you know, Dan
and Shay like and then all the different things, so
many different wild stories and artists and tech company like

(50:16):
it's just all these weird situations I found myself in
over the years and still find myself in and I
always say, like, when you say, do you not.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Wish you manage him?

Speaker 3 (50:24):
I always think of do you remember Carl Lewis, He
won the gold medal for the US. He was like
the fastest man in the world. And we were kids,
me and my brother Adam. We were in an airport
when we were probably like seven and five or like
eight and six, and Carl Lewis had just won the
gold medal. He was in the airport and my dad
pointed it out and me and my brother kept walking

(50:46):
and then running past him and then letting him pass us.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
And then we'd run past him and we were like,
we're the fastest guy in the world.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
And there was one time where he kind of like
looked at us and he made a move to like sprint,
and we like all giggled. I'm forty three years old.
I have never forgot that moment. And I said to Chris,
Paul was an amazing point guard and an amazing friend.
I said to him one time, I said, you know what, Chris,
the coolest part about our lives now is that our
every day is someone else's forever, you know, and that

(51:16):
things that happened to us on a daily basis. Is
that story that little kid remembered at forty three years old,
And as long as I don't take that for granted,
how cool is that? And like that job afforded me
all those memories, so I love it.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
If you had to throw like one fish back into
the ocean, though.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
One fish back into the ocean, this is gonna be fun.
If I had to throw one fish back into the ocean,
you're saying.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Like one client, Yeah, like one client.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Honestly, I have never even thought of this, but actually,
like every experience was worth it.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
So if people didn't know you from your work with
all these artists like Bieber and Ariana, they definitely know
you from the Taylor Swift saga started back in twenty nineteen,
and I think we quotes here and there around the internet,
but we never really get the full story from you
from your perspective what happened.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Look for me, it was six years ago.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
I think, like going backwards and like revisiting this is
a waste of time.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
I think.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
That I just assume you know, since then there have
been more deep dives, but I think people cared less
and less than the years, So I think a lot
of the facts are out there now if people actually
choose to go look at them. But I always choose
to think like, the only thing I didn't appreciate is
it was so public without an understanding of actually what

(52:38):
was going on. But I think once you do that,
it's hard to put it back in the box. But
I also think that, you know, like when Taylor says
that she wasn't offered the Masters, the reason I was
under NBA was because we were in negotiations to sell.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
It back to her.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
I just choose to believe her that maybe they didn't
tell her her team, like maybe her team didn't tell
her didn't understand the negotiation. But the thing, you know,
for me, the only thing that I really regret is
that it's easy to have a monster if you never
meet them. And Taylor and I have only met three
times in our life, and I think at that point
we hadn't seen each other in two three years. I

(53:15):
was managing people she wasn't a fan of, and she
probably saw my name come up and was like, I
don't like those people, so I don't like him. But
you know, we never had an opportunity to sit in
front of each other and actually have a conversation to
this day, and I think that you know, most of
the time, when people actually sit in front of each other,
the monster isn't real, that there's an understanding, that there's
a healing, you know that you know people kind of

(53:36):
a conversation. And because when I was asking for that,
it just never happened. It really awry, and I chose
to not say much. But the cool part is if
you actually pay attention, everybody in the end won.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Well, yes, she could have bought them back and that
could have been part of the victory, but I choose
to think of a team. Maybe he didn't tell her,
but like we ended up when they turned it down,
we ended up selling it to someone else because she
didn't want us to have it.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
We did very well in that.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Sale because we bought it at at a really great price,
and the value Masters went up. And the thesis when
I sold it was she had announced she was going
to do rerecords and I, if you understand music, the
value went up for Masters because Spotify and streamers created
a longer decay than buying just CDs, so like people

(54:25):
would listen to them more so there's a longer decay,
but it's still decaying. But when she records, all ships
rise in a world of streaming, so people were going
on and they were a being them.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
They were listening to see how much they sounded like.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
So she did incredibly well and basically had the biggest
moment of her career, reinvigorating her career.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
With each one. It was brilliant on her part.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
But also each time she released one, you saw a
spike in the original catalog, and that's how we were
able to tell, Okay, if she doesn't want them, this
is still a really great asset. And we actually created
an e n out. We did every one of our
earn outs and we were right. So funny enough everyone
involved in the Sofa from a business standpoint one, she's
the biggest she's ever been, biggest artist of all time.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
We did really well with the asset. The people who
bought the asset did really well because of those spikes.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
The only thing that I'm sad about is that's a
great example where everybody all ships can rise and there
doesn't need to be an enemy. There doesn't need to
be and and in that if her team, you know,
she could have bought them back, but like, even with
not doing that right, I wish kids and people out
there understood that, like there are scenarios in life where

(55:32):
there doesn't need to be an oppressor and oppressed. There
are scenarios in life where it's a misunderstanding yet everyone
can succeed. And the whole reason I did that deal
was not only because I believed in Big Machine and
Scott and Thomas Rhett and you know Florida, George I
and all the amazing acts they had on Big Machine.
But you don't make a deal at that level unless

(55:55):
you believe in her. Yeah, you know, so I believed
that she was going to become exactly who she's remained
to be. And you know, the narrative since then, you
know me even talking about this, now there's gonna be
Hello Swifties. They're gonna be yelling and screaming and you
know this, that and the other. You can't say anything right,
and it is what it is. And you know my
response to that is they made the horrible, you know,

(56:17):
miscalculation that I care. You know, My thing is that
i'd you know, I just I don't know those people
out there, and if I met them in person and
they needed my help.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
As a stranger, I would help.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
Them, and I've seen that on a human level, and
I think people forget that when you have a fan
base that big. If ten thousand people are yelling at you,
it feels like the world is ending. But that's less
than one percent of a fan base that big. I
think most people are dealing with their own problems. I
think most people are dealing with their own insecurities the
same way I am, the same way you know, every
artist and every human being is. And I think that

(56:50):
it's just a more productive use of your time to
not get stuck in the craziness of celebrity fodder and
focus more on being kind to people.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Interesting to hear that everybody won Like netnet, you made money,
she made money. The thing that she told Time that
I am curious about is she said, with the scooter thing,
my masters were being sold to someone who actively wanted
them for nefarious reasons. In my opinion, what do you
think she's referring to.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
I don't know. I don't have any nefarious reasons. You don't.
That was a major risk for me at the time
to buy that company.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
I couldn't afford to do it for nefarious reasons to go, Like,
just from a financial standpoint, that doesn't.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Make any sense.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
I needed her to be successful for me to take
that risk. There's nothing nefarious about it, there's nothing. I
don't know what she was told, but the monster if
she ever wanted to sit in front of me, the
monster doesn't exist, and she'd.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Be met with kindness.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
I just wish that it didn't take such a toll
on my family, with all the people that were activated
by that stuff, because there were.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
It was a very tough time for us.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
Because there's a lot of people out there that don't
understand and they hear this stuff and they take it
to a level that's really not okay, and I think
that's dangerous. You said earlier that she helps pay for
people's college tuition.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, good on her.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
I'd rather talk about her doing that than talk about
her nefarious.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Reasons with me.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
You think there's a difference between what actually happened and
what people think happened.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
So that's ninety nine percent of the things that people
read on the internet. But at the same time, that's
the whole lesson of self work. You can't define yourself
by what everyone else thinks. Especially people that don't know you.
That's the gift of being in the public eye, because
when you're not in the public eye, you can maybe
hide it a little bit more, But when you're in

(58:41):
the public eye, it's so much easier to be misunderstood,
and you better go deep inside yourself to figure that
part out. But you're talking about someone who doesn't know me,
and I don't know them, so why would I wish
them ill?

Speaker 1 (58:53):
You helped make so many other people famous. What surprised
you the most when your name was in the headlines
surprised you about how you reacted.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
It was the first time that I had ever had
any negative press. What surprised me is how overnight everything
I had done before didn't matter. What surprised me is
how before that I was known for helping people and
philanthropy and success and all these different things. And what

(59:23):
surprised me was like, the next day, all of that
was out the window. You were defined by this one moment.
That's what it felt like, and what a gift, best
gift ever, because that was when I started the lesson
of learning that all the praise that I thrived on before.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Wasn't real either.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
That's why I told you earlier, the praise wasn't deserved
and the hate wasn't deserved because none of these people
knew me, and at that point in my life, I
really didn't know myself. So the hate forced me between
that and losing my marriage, which had completely nothing to
do with that, something completely different, and there were rumors
about that, but like that was just all of that

(01:00:04):
led me to wanting to go to a deeper place.
And it's the reason I'm doing a podcast with you. Like,
I'm almost annoyed that we're talking about this. I think
you can understand. I don't want to talk about it.
I understand you're doing your job.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
I do have two more.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
We'll see.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
But what I can tell you, like as we joke
about it, what I really hope comes out of this
is that someone goes damn, like I'm gonna forget all
that noise and maybe look in word. You know, That's
what I really hope, I sik, somebody realizes that like
everything you need is and self love. And I know
that sounds cheesy and cliche, but it is so true.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Now she's about to take me with two more.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
Have you talked to your kids about it?

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
I had to at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
My kids were really young then, but my oldest is
ten and someone said something very mean to him at school.
But the beautiful thing is I didn't have to talk
that much because my kids know who their dad is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
You mentioned a rumor about your marriage. There's been a
lot of rumors with Taylor. There's lyrics in vigilante shit.
I hate cursing, but in vigilante shit she writes and sings.
She needed cold heart proof, so I gave her some.
She had the envelope. Where do you think she got
it from?

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Go ahead, keep going.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Now she gets the house, gets the kids, gets the pride.
Picture me thick as thieves with your ex wife? Ex wife?
Did you ever think these were about you?

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
No, because I talk to el every day. My ex
wife is one of my best friends. So me and
my ex wife laugh about that stuff. We don't even
call each other X. That's like my partner, you know.
That's the mother of my children. That is my family
for life. I have a tattoo on my finger that's
the same team after my divorce because she and I
are same team for life. It's what we say to
each other. So no, I never thought that was about us.

(01:01:44):
She never thought it was about us and everyone else.
Kind of feeding into the fire.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
Great strategy move, but like, Nah, can we talk about
your divorce?

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Yeah? Sure, I'll decide if I want to answer.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
So you seem so fueled by success at least in
your pre Hoffman life. Did you see divorce as a failure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
At the time.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
Yeah, No one in my family had ever been divorced.
And at that time I had built up this foundation
of Scooter because I didn't think Scott was strong enough.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
I didn't know that yet.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
So having the perfect career, the perfect wife, the perfect life,
the kids, the success, I thought.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
That made me worthy of love.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
And it wasn't until our marriage came apart and I
couldn't fix it. I felt like a failure because I
didn't have a foundation. But it was the greatest thing
that ever happened to me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Because the ups.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
And downs of artist's life, the tailor stuff, none of
that actually affected me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Losing my marriage affected me.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
The idea of not being with my kids fifty percent
of the time deeply affected me so much so that
October twenty twenty, when I didn't really even understand what
was going on.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
I had a suicidal thought at the height of my.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Career for twenty minutes wow, because my marriage falling apart.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
No one really knew. I knew.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
I couldn't understand why, and I was like, man if
I can't be the father to them and you know
this life, I felt like I didn't want to be there.
And after that twenty minutes went by, I was like,
what the hell was that? That was really scary. I
never want to feel like that ever again. And then
the next day I actually opened up to a friend
and he recommended Hoffmann and I went.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Two weeks later.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
The same day, Arianna was releasing Dangerous Woman. But I
just decided, you've done it this way for so long
and look what it got you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
You know, this deep depression. Now you've got to choose
something else.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
And October twenty sixth I went into the Haffin process
and started healing and got to this beautiful place where
here I am six years later. Before, never divorced, no
one ever said anything negative about me, and the press
there was, everything online was very beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
There's nothing negative. Later I'm divorced.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
People talk about me constantly and I couldn't be happier.
I wouldn't trade it in a million years, The relationship
I have with my children, the relationship I have with
my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Do I wish you know? Do you wish? Like you know?

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Certain things didn't happen because they were painful, absolutely, but
they were so necessary.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
That must be weird though, when your insides don't match
the outside.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
I didn't know because I didn't know how to be present.
So I always kept moving because.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
I thought like, that's how other people, that's how I
deserve love. And when I finally had to slow down
because I couldn't control it anymore, I broke. I had
no foundation, and that's when I had to put myself
back together, and other people helped me. And Hoffin didn't
fix me, but it started fixing me. And it started
me on a journey to like study breathwork and study meditation,
and do therapy and study stoicism and study kabbala and

(01:04:50):
study all these different things that I'm still doing every
single day today. You asked me about like being flawed,
I'm still flawed. I'm still battling every single day.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Do you battle?

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
There's this book Many Lives, Many Masters by Brian Weiss,
one of my favorite books, and it's this idea of
past lives, and one of the things.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
He talks about, you're life past life.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
It's more this idea that he says, you're here to learn,
and usually when you go, it's because there's nothing more.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
For you to learn.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
The reason why I jump out of planes, like learning
I jump learn how to jump solo for my forty
second birthday, or like I'll go swim with sharks, it's
because I know that I'm so screwed up and I'm
still trying to learn every day that I really don't
think it's my time to go because that book. So
I believe I'm flawed like everyone else, because I still
feel resistance. I still have moments where I'm like, oh,

(01:05:39):
the ego wants to win, or I'm hurt, or I'm angry,
or I'm disappointed or I'm like hurt by someone, and
I'm always trying to go towards it because that's where
the good stuff is. And as long as I keep
having that resistance and keep having that hurt and keep
having that struggle, I know I'm still in it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
So I choose to it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
When does that trigger come up randomly?

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Sometimes it's a friend you know, is celebrating something and
you see it online and you're like, was there a
reason I wasn't, Like, like, you know, it's it could
be on the other side of the country and you
just feel like left out or something, or your insecurities
make you think you have to do with something that
has nothing to do with you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
I'm more personal or professional for you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
Personal, yeah, but it's also like the slightest thing of
like sometimes it's an old thing that you think you
were past and someone brings up an old wound and
you were like, damn, I thought I was past that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
But okay, I'm not. Let's keep working on this.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
And luckily I talked to a therapist once a week,
which I never did when I was younger, and she
keeps me extremely accountable. She calls me on my bullshit.
She goes, no, you're dealing with that. I know you are,
and I'm really grateful for her hit me with.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
The next time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
No, there there's really none my I mean personally, I'm curious.
I don't know if you want to talk about this,
but like Hive has since bought what is it called
quality Control Music, so like you've since bought other people's Masters,
and there's no headlines and no issues, so it didn't
scare you away from it. Do you feel like there

(01:07:09):
is like a legal moral way to do it that
it doesn't work?

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
I think on this side of my career, I think
there's lots of things I realize about the laws of
the music industry that don't make sense, you know, And
I won't even talk from a master's point of view.
I think masters is you get what you negotiate in
the music business. It's kind of like the Wahwah West,
and Masters is a way that major labels feel comfortable
investing in artists because they don't participate in publishing. So

(01:07:35):
by owning masters or participating in Masters, it gives them
a reason to take a big risk and a chance
on emerging artists and helping you break like that's the
reward that they're.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Signing up for.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
I'll give you an example though, on the publishing side
that I disagree with and I actually wish it would change,
and I've been a part of the problem in the past. Songwriters,
I think that they're the most underpaid people in our industry.
I think that they're for the melodies and the stories
that we love. They're unseen and they're not rewarded the
way they should. And I think that one of the

(01:08:09):
problems when you're majing a major artist is unless that
artist has a piece of the publishing, there's no way
for the artists to protect their rights. So, for example,
if an artist doesn't own a piece of the publishing,
you can take the lyrics of their hit song and
you can sell t shirts without.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Them with any design you want because you own the publishing.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
But that doesn't protect the integrity of the artist's brand,
or the design work, or all the thoughtfulness they went
into creating their merch and protecting everything that they've worked
hard on. But the only way to protect that artist
is by demanding a piece of something that is a
very small revenue stream that those songwriters need. I think

(01:08:48):
that there should be a way to protect the performer
and the rights of the performer while not taking away
from the revenue stream of the songwriters. And that's something
that I'd love to see happen and something that I
realize now in this part of my career that while
I was protecting my clients, I might not have always
been doing the right thing by the songwriters because I

(01:09:08):
was doing my job. But what I'd like to do
on this side, if anyone want to advocate, I'd be
right there with them, saying the laws need to be
changed where you don't need to cut into someone's revenue
stream to do the right thing by the performer.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
But even with labels, as much as it is true
that they're taking all the risk, they're putting all the
money up up front, they don't have anything without the artists.
And all these young artists now like Chapel Rone just
talked about it at the Grammys, they're like starting to
wave their hands saying this isn't right, like the labels.
I don't know how else to say it, but the

(01:09:40):
labels like just have them.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Look.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
I think there's things about it that are wrong, and
then there's things about it where, you know, how many
artists who aren't successful are asking the label to keep
investing millions of dollars in them when it's not worked yet, right,
you know? So, I think there's always two sides of
that coin. That sometimes the artist in their individual situation
is spot on, But then what do you tell the
other artists where you're saying, well, because they said this,

(01:10:03):
I no longer have the revenue to take a chance
to break your next favorite artist, you know. I think,
like any business that needs to grow, it needs to change.
There also needs to be stop fighting against technology and
understanding technology can bring us new revenue streams that can
change our business. I think people come really hard at
Spotify and they're like, oh, they're not paying us correctly,
But they also forget that if it wasn't for Daniel Leck,

(01:10:27):
we wouldn't have the music industry value we have today.
He saved a dying industry. He took a risk, and
people are mad that he's done so well. But at
the same time, if it wasn't for him and streaming
and what Spotify did, we wouldn't be having in the
revenue that we have right now. So it's always it's
easy to kind of point fingers back and forth. I
think it's better if we find ways to work together

(01:10:48):
to create more more prosperity for everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Well, to your point, with streaming and so many independent labels,
you artists need big labels anymore?

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
I think it really depends on the case.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
I think sometimes a big a big label can use
its power and its its strategy and boots on the
ground around the world to actually make a difference for you.
And sometimes you're able to break through using the internet
and you can do you know, a distribution deal, And
you know, I really think it depends on your needs.
You know, some types of acts don't need a lot
of money to tour or do things. Other acts need

(01:11:21):
a tremendous amount of money to develop the music, videos,
the strategy, the development every act is different.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
And I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
You know, pointing fingers at each other while others make
money off of all of us is not necessarily the
most productive thing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
What do you think about the TikTok isation of music?

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Too old? I mean, that's honestly the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
I think when other people are coming on, they're like,
what is this, and like, I'm getting to that age
where I'm like, I don't understand the TikTok Like it's
I'm too old, Like I'm not native to the technology anymore.
So the same way my dad discovered vinyl, I discovered
DJ Clu mixtapes. And you know, some kids today is
discovering on TikTok. The one thing that has remained constant
is the love of discovery of music. So I'm not

(01:12:07):
going to bad mouth how a kid discovers music today
because that's their generation.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
But artists are making music for TikTok. Do you remember
in the Instagram era, everybody thought that Drake would make
these songs just so we would all have Instagram captions.
And whether that's true or not, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
I don't think all artists make songs for TikTok. I
think artists, like art, take different mediums and date different
types of art. So what I mean by that is
there are some artists who are still making albums, there
are other artists who are focused on singles, then there
are artists who are focusing on TikTok. I think people
make art specifically for the art they want to make,

(01:12:44):
and we seem to judge it based on who makes
the most revenue. That's been the biggest issue for me,
not just with music.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
Across the board.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Why are bachelor and bachelorette lists based on network and
not kindness or you know, not even like if the
person's a try active anymore. It's just like, seriously, it's
like how much how rich are they?

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
You know? And I think, what are you talking about?
Bachelor and bachelorette.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
Lists Like when we look at them, like when you
see the most eligible bachelors in the world, Oh, okay,
you know they'll be like showing their net worth.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
And I think that we've gotten women's beauty.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
It's like women's It's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
So to me.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
What's interesting about AI if it really does take away
a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Jobs and does replace a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
We've been a generation, the generation before us that's defined
by what we do.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
The next generation might need to be defined by who
they are.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Interesting because if you get a lot of people who
have more time on their hands, there's possibly like an
artistic renaissance.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
Either artistic renaissance or we're gonna have to deal with
ourselves and not just be defined with what we do.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
I don't know. Shakespeare says idle hands are the devil's
play things.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
We're gonna find out.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
Okay, at the height of it, how many calls.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
I hope it's an artistic renaissance, like you said, and
not idle hands.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
I hope so too. I think if AI, we don't
have a great track record in America, but if AI
gets into the right hands.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
Well, it seems to be in all our hands, especially
with all the open source and everything that's happening. But look,
the world's going to change drastically in the next couple
of years, and we always seem a way of.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Figuring it out and going on a new journey. And
I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
There's going to be a lot of opportunity for experience
and art and it's going to be an interesting world in.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
The next ten to fifteen years, if not sooner.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
At the height of your managerial career, how many calls
were you making a day?

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
Oh, it is all day emails, calls all day, like
more than three hundred.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
Yeah, probably like over a thousand emails in texta day.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
And were you a zero in box guy?

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
How did you do it at nighttime?

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
It was funny my assistant with jokereg in like two
three in the morning. It was just like, this is
just because I'd be answering everything.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Wow, a scooter. What's it been like to work this hard?

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
I've never been asked that. I don't think I knew
any other way.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
For a really long time, the more interesting question has
been what is it like to work different? The last
couple of years learning how to be present, it's less
a question of what to feel like to work that hard,
and how nice it is now to be here. I

(01:15:43):
don't think I knew how to be here. I think
I knew how to live in the future. I think
I knew how to prepare, pare for every single moment.
I knew how to always be on getting ready, getting ready,
getting ready, And that made me really good at business.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
But you took a breath when I said that. Tailed
why because.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
I've learned how to exhale. That's the reason.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
It's when you're working so hard before, you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
Don't know how to breathe. You don't know how to
take a moment. You don't know how to not look
at your phone. You're so afraid of what you're building,
not working. It's like my grandparents' Holocaust survivors. Like you said,
it was a lot of Holocaust trauma. Like tomorrow they're
gonna come and.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Take it all away. Yeah, And the last couple of years,
the pain of the last.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Couple of years forced me to learn how to be
here and learn how to take a breath. And that
has been really nice because the closest thing I can
relate to that is being a kid.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
Is like being a kid.

Speaker 3 (01:16:46):
Who's riding a bike around his neighborhood, a kid who
liked the ThunderCats and was silly and had fun and
didn't have a phone yet. And it was a lot
more joyous than I was in my adult years. And
I've got that back then you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
Had the playfulness though, like I mean, maybe it was
just on Instagram, but.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
I don't know. I did.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
But I was afraid of tomorrow. I didn't know how
to be here today. And so my friends feel like
you haven't changed where They're like, now you're back. I
didn't know how to be vulnerable. I didn't know how
to like tell that, you know, what was really happening
with me.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
I was.

Speaker 3 (01:17:24):
I was protecting all the time, and now I'm a mess,
just like you. It's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
Did you shed people?

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
Yeah, but I think that happens naturally. I don't really
like shedding anybody, Like I'm just not built. They my
friends actually say it's a problem, but I just think
you get to a point where you realize it's okay.
Like and I changed in a week, so I actually,
at the same time shed people, I also know that
they can change in a week and we could be
friends all over it again, you know. So I give

(01:17:54):
people the benefit it out the same way I'd want them.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
To do for me.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Yeah, okay, I was reading an article you and there
was a blind quote and they said he's a good
guy and can be ruthless in business. What's it like
to hear me say.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
That that's their opinion?

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Is it true?

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
I think that in my opinion, everyone who's ever.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
Done a deal with me has made a multiple I've
never lost money for anyone.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
I've never screwed anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:18:23):
I take a lot of pride in the fact that,
especially in his town, there are not many people that
can say that every investor they had did well, every
partner we had did well.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
That I'm still doing deals with those partners.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
I'll never apologize for fighting for our worth and some
people might have found that that be a tough negotiator,
but I always believe both sides can win, and in
the end we got there and being great an entrepreneur.
Jeff Bezos says, you better expect to be misunderstood, and
I'm okay with that. So when I hear it, I
don't take any offense to it because that might have
been their experience. But you know what they said, The

(01:18:54):
most important thing I thought, I was good guy. So
that's sweet, that's nice to them.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
I'm glad you didn't ignore that part at at all.
So someone you've done a few deals with said to me,
Scooters able to determine what people want in a situation
more than anyone. You wrote on Instagram that you like
in meetings to ask people what their greed is? What
do they want? Are you always cognizant of people's desires

(01:19:18):
in your interactions with them?

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
And it also makes things easier because people misunderstand the
word greed. They think you know it's a dirty word
because it's usually the thing that you feel shameful to say.
But it's usually the thing I need to know to
make the right deal. Sometimes greed is money. Sometimes greed
is fame. Sometimes greed is I want to spend more

(01:19:42):
time with my kids. Sometimes greed is I want to
be seen for who I am. Sometimes greed is I
want to make sure this charity I love makes money.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
You never know what the greed is, but if.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
Someone can just say it and stop hiding it, you
can build a deal that works for everybody you know.
And so for me, I try to push people to
feel comfortable enough to say what they actually want, so.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
We can make a deal that works for everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
And it served you. Yeah, you said, you asked Jeff
Bezos that what did he say?

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Asked him what what his greed was? I never asked
him that. I probably should.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
I asked him what he wanted. I didn't ask the
greed question, but I said, what do you want?

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
And I here, I was looking at someone who I admired,
who is misunderstood. You know, someone who has provided more
jobs for this country than any person alive today. Someone
who provided more jobs in covid than anybody. Someone who
changed the minimum wage at the corporate level when the
federal government wouldn't. He did, and other companies followed and

(01:20:47):
changed into fifteen dollars because he said, we can actually
do this. Someone who's built made trillions of dollars of
wealth for other people, not just himself, but also as
one of the most commercially successful people individually in the world.
And I got to ask him, you know, what do
you want? And he looked at me and he said,
I want to evolve. I want to be more vulnerable.
I want to be a better partner, I want to

(01:21:09):
be a better father, I want to be a better friend,
and I thought to myself, I don't need two hundred
billion dollars to start that, and I felt like it
was a cheat code. And I'm the reason I don't
like to tell stories about certain people in my life.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
But I feel proud to tell that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
Story about him because I hope more people hear it,
because no one needs that level of wealth to start
that journey.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
You seem really passionate about people doing self work. Is
it because you feel so much better now?

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:21:38):
And I don't want them to be in the place
that I was to start it. I had plenty of
people who loved me trying to tell me to start
self work, and I just didn't turn off the rat race.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
I said, I don't need that. Look at the whole
world is telling.

Speaker 3 (01:21:55):
Me I'm great, So I'm great, and I refuse to
hear that little voice inside of me that was like,
come get me, we should start this.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
And I only started when I was in deep pain.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
So I talk about it a lot now because I
don't wish that pain on anybody. And it's such an
easy thing to start, and you don't have to be
in pain to do so, so I kind of wish
people start it before they get to.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):
The place I was in.

Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
I'm sorry you were in so much pain, you know what.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
I'm here now, so it's all good.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
What do you want moving forward? What's your agreed?

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
I want people to stop asking me about past dramas.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
Maybe after this interview we can put it to bed.

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
And maybe I would love that. Honestly, what do you
really want?

Speaker 1 (01:22:41):
Like, no podcast answered, what do you actually want?

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
I would like to build something that I could share
with my children.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Interesting, I'd like.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
To build something next that if they said, Dad, can
we come do this with you? There's enough space for
them to not only do it with me, but find
themselves in it as well. And I could share my
care creativity with them, Like if they wanted to do
more of the business side, I could share that with them.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
Like I would like to do something that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
If they choose to do their own thing, that's great,
But if if there was an opportunity that they wanted
to kind of do something with their dad.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
That would be a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
You shared a lot of stories with me today about
like a more Fati and Marcus Aurelius, and you seem
to have these sort of like ASoP fables in you.
You post some of them on Instagram. I'm wondering why
being a storyteller is important to you or why stories
matter to you.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Does they have meaning?

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
Is that how you learn?

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
I think so.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
I think you learned from your own experiences, but I
think you can learn a lot from stories. I think
I loved always reading stories about great people to kind
of like have cheat codes. Like the story Jeff gave me,
that's a cheat code. Yeah, you know, here's someone who
has all that and that's what they're looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
That's a cheat code. Like great stories are a cheat code.

Speaker 3 (01:23:57):
Like my favorite story in the scripture was like two
weeks ago in a parsha and like it's a cheat code,
it's the story, Like do you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
Know who actually parted the Red Sea? Who do you
think Moses?

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
People think Moses part of the Red Sea. Moses didn't
part the Red Sea?

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
Pharaoh, Nope. So the real story, I'm gonna go biblical
on you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
The real story is the Egyptians were coming and they're
going to kill everybody, and everyone's freaking out, and Aaron
and Moses are standing up there saying God says, trust him,
go into the sea, and the sea is like choppy
as hell. The current's crazy, like people go in, You're
gonna die, and they're like Moses wants us to commit suicide,
like this is We're not doing that. And Aaron's brother

(01:24:44):
in law's name was not Sewan. He was the head
of the tribe of Judah. He was this regular dude
who was like the leader of his family. Something came
over him and God said trust me and not shown
not Moses walked into the sea and his family started
screaming like, don't do this, You're gonna die, and it
it wasn't until his mouth and his nose went under
the water that God parted the sea. And it's like

(01:25:06):
one of my favorite stories ever of this idea of
trust and in life it's not until you go into
a place that is unreasonable, into a place of danger.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
That shows up.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
And I love that story because that's like one of
the greatest gifts. It's a cheat code of like that's life,
you know, like success and failure live next door each other.
You have to go into the resistance, you have to
go into the fear, and it isn't until you put
yourself into a place of unreasonable danger that usually the
miracles happen, and I really like stories.

Speaker 1 (01:25:41):
That was a great one.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Thanks, Oh it's not mine.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
I'm curious when you felt the closest to that fear
and success. I mean, I've heard you talk about with
Bieber like you were basically down in your last dollar
at Asher and justin Yeah, but is there anything later
in your career where it felt that way, Like were
you really felt like you were taking a big risk?

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
My life change after that where I'll admit it, like
I have the luck of not being in that financial
position ever again after that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
But yeah, Like I think, it's not just about finance.
It's about all aspects of your life.

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):
It's about going towards When I did the self work
for the first time, I was lost and I went
in to do something that was so out of character,
that was so surrender, which I never did before. And
it wasn't until I put myself in surrender in a
place of being vulnerable in front of strangers that I

(01:26:35):
started to actually have the healing and the miracles take place.
So I can talk about it from a business standpoint,
but the most powerful in my life has actually been
you know, understanding that I'm not completely in control and
that I've actually been taking care of Most of us
have been taking care of our whole lives. So, for example,
if you mind I ask you a question. Sure, okay,

(01:26:59):
what if you had a friend your entire life who
every single time, every single time you've got in a
bad position where you didn't think you were gonna make it,
that friend showed up and said, I will take care
of it. And now you're this age and you're back
in that position where it's the worst it's ever been.
You feel like it's the worst it's ever been, and

(01:27:20):
like you cannot control it. It's gonna fall apart, You're screwed.
And this friend comes to you and goes, Okay, listen,
this one need you to do. I've earned this. I
need you to completely trust me. You have no control
of the situation. I need you completely surrender and I'll
fix it. Could you do it?

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
You really?

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
I'm proud of you because most people are going to
be like complete control, like, yeah, the friend can help me,
but like I'm talking, you're not even allowed to know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
You have to just say I trust and fall back.

Speaker 1 (01:27:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):
Okay, I'm really proud because you're an evolved person.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
In some ways to me, that's the universe.

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):
That's God.

Speaker 3 (01:27:54):
Like, how many times have all of us in our life.
If you're at an age of like over twenty, over thirty,
you've already had enough like experienced that There's been so
many points in your life, Yeah, where you thought there's
just no getting out of this, so many of them
that you've forgotten at this point because they've been healed
since where you thought it was the end of the
world and it's far years later and you've removed.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
And every single time steps up.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
So now I got to a point in my life
where it was like, okay, cool, you think you've been
controlling this, but I've actually been the one helping you
the whole time, So can you just fall back and
let me help you? And I finally gone and got
to the point and I work on that every day
because you say, yeah, I'm still working on full surrender.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
I'm not there yet. You're better than me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:34):
No, not full. But the caveat is had I not been,
had I not had those moments, I couldn't have said yes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:42):
Well, I think we've all had those moments, and I'm
still not able to say fully yes.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
It's the thing I'm working on every day.

Speaker 1 (01:28:47):
That's really interesting. I'm shocked to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
That I'm better at it, but like, because.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
You had to surrender your whole life.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
Yes, but I still struggle with it because it's scary.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
Yeah, I'm so much better than it was. But it's
scary every single time because what if they're not going
to be there? But they've proven you know, God, universe
has proven me a thousand times.

Speaker 3 (01:29:08):
It is Yeah, that's called faith, and I think I'm
still working on that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
Is there anyone in your life who has like, really
really beautiful faith that you admire, that you look to.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
My mom does really believe in the goodness in people.

Speaker 3 (01:29:22):
Obviously it will change that they get older, but because
of my kids are still kids, I get.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
To see it in them.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
You've been behind some of the most iconic careers of
the last fifteen years. When someone asks your eldest son
what his father does, what do you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Hope he says, he's Jagger's dad.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
I have some rapid fire questions for you, something that
really scares you whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
The first that was health for my family.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
The biggest misconception about.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
You that I control everything and I'm a crazy man.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
Wish you knew when you started out in the music
industry that I don't control shit. What's a risk you're
glad you took even if it didn't work out.

Speaker 2 (01:30:09):
I tried.

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
I just got out there and tried.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
Do you believe in karma?

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):
Yes, but in a way that it's teaching you, never
hurting you say more.

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):
I think karma.

Speaker 3 (01:30:23):
I believe that like all of us are on our journey,
and I think karma's there to give us corrections, never
to hurt us.

Speaker 2 (01:30:28):
It's always to teach us. I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
What's something everyone should try once?

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
The first thing that came to mind with skydiving, But
I don't know if that's a good idea.

Speaker 1 (01:30:41):
I can't. If you were a tree, what kind of
tree would you be?

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
Oka and olive?

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Something that you've changed your mind about recently, or an.

Speaker 2 (01:30:49):
Orange tree i'd like to give people. Yeah, yeah, probably
an orange.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Tree, just like lasting fruit. Yeah, something you've changed your
mind about recently.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
One thing I've changed my mind about recently.

Speaker 3 (01:31:03):
I was doing like a really healthy diet and yesterday
I was like, screw this, I want that cookie. So
I changed my mind about the diet yesterday and I
ate the cookie.

Speaker 1 (01:31:10):
Okay, a book that changed your life, something you think
everybody should read.

Speaker 2 (01:31:14):
Many Lives, Many Masters, that's a really good one.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
You grab the question Everything card game and pick a
card which everyone speaks to you this is the one.

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
Or you're okay. What's your superpower?

Speaker 1 (01:31:27):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:31:31):
I think I try to see people. Yeah, I think
my superpower is I think sometimes superpowers can hurt you,
and that's a good thing. So I think my superpower
is deep down, I really just want everyone to be okay.
That's my superpower. I get people to benefit of the doubt.
I actually just want I don't like conflict with people

(01:31:54):
like I. I want everyone to be okay. I want
people to get along. And I think even when people
are treating you know, even when my friends think I
shouldn't be like that, I'd rather be that way.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
That's interesting because usually what we give people is what
we need most.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
See, I just want to be okay and understood. Maybe
this is a great therapy session.

Speaker 1 (01:32:20):
Music takes Okay, these are gonna be fun. An album
you listen to No.

Speaker 3 (01:32:24):
Skips Lauren Hill Miseducational larn Hill Usher Confessions.

Speaker 2 (01:32:29):
Another one No Skips that's a good one too.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
Okay, Three albums to listen to for the rest of
your life.

Speaker 3 (01:32:35):
One I just named, well, I'll name other ones. Three
albums the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Tribe. God, that's so hard.

Speaker 3 (01:32:42):
I know, albums rest of your life just because you
know named my kid after Sticky Fingers by the Stones
and Born to Run or Springsteen.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
Obama would agree with you. AI good or bad for
the music industry.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
I think things of all of them. When we fight them,
we get in trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
So could Spotify or Apple Music.

Speaker 3 (01:33:07):
I'm a fan of both companies, but I have been
a long term supporter and shareholder of Spotify, and I
think what Daniel.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
Did is remarkable.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
Who's an artist we should all have our eye on?
Scarlet Opera first CD or tape? You ever bought?

Speaker 2 (01:33:27):
Kevin Campbell the single Round and Round.

Speaker 1 (01:33:31):
A song you wish you had discovered? Oh excuse me,
a singer you wish you had discovered or managed?

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):
First? I mean alive or dead?

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
And you're saying, yeah, an artist you wish you had managed.

Speaker 2 (01:33:42):
I don't ever want to manage again.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
But in the past, is there ever someone that you
really wanted on your roster that you never got I'm good.

Speaker 2 (01:33:50):
I had a great run. I'm good.

Speaker 3 (01:33:52):
That's my answer to the question, like I don't have
that wish anymore. I had an amazing run, I had
an incredible management career. I'm good, and I think everyone
was with the person they're supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
Yeah, peace, love and happy endings. Okay, an artists, people
would be surprised that you love George Benson a concert
that blew your mind, Michael Jackson bad an artist that
you think is still underrated even after all their success.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Tory Kelly.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
I agree. I also put Mario in there, Miguel.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):
But I just I'm saying Tori toy. I've worked with Tory.

Speaker 3 (01:34:34):
I think she's one of the most remarkable voices of
all time. And you talk about underrated Tory.

Speaker 1 (01:34:39):
Kelly lyric that lives rent free in.

Speaker 3 (01:34:41):
Your head, cooler than a polar bear's toenails. Oh hell,
there he goes again, talking that shit scooter, thank you
or I'm from Jamaica, Queens where I beat you up
and take your jeans.

Speaker 2 (01:34:54):
I always thought that was a funny line.

Speaker 1 (01:35:00):
Okay, you know what time it is, Today's a good day.
To have a good day. I'll see you next week,

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