October 16, 2025 • 55 mins
What happens when a woman refuses to take no for an answer—from the FDA, from society, from stigma? In this episode, Danielle + Cindy Eckert, the billion-dollar entrepreneur and founder of Sprout Pharmaceuticals, who fought the U.S. government to bring the first FDA-approved drug for women's sexual desire to market. Together, they unpack how women's health, equality, and pleasure became a battleground and why the future of feminism might start in your doctor's office. Cindy shares:
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The "lightning bolt" moment she realized women's desire is rooted in brain chemistry, not emotion
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How Viagra was approved in 6 months while her drug took 6 years + what that says about systemic bias
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The truth about medical gaslighting and why women are still understudied and undervalued in healthcare
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Why she bought back her billion-dollar company to finish what she started
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How to know when your idea is worth fighting for (and when to walk away)
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The power of curiosity, candor, and crying in business
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Her advice for women who want impact, not just success
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The childhood disruption that made her fearless and independent
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Why women deserve pleasure, not permission
Follow Cindy on Instagram @cindypinkceoBook recommendation: The Five Temptations of a CEO by Patrick Lencioni Learn more about her mission and work at The Pink Ceiling and Sprout Pharmaceuticals
Disclaimer for ADDYI: ADDYI is for premenopausal women with acquired, generalized hypoactive (low) sexual desire disorder who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past, and who have low sexual desire no matter the type of sexual activity, the situation or the sexual partner. The low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem, problems in the relationship or medicine or other drug use. ADDYI is not for use in men or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased if you drink 1-2 standard alcoholic drinks close in time to your ADDYI dose. Wait at least 2 hours after drinking before taking ADDYI at bedtime. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is also increased if you take certain prescription, over the counter or herbal medications, or have liver problems. Low blood pressure and fainting can happen when you take ADDYI even if you don't drink alcohol or take other medicines. Do not take if you are allergic to any of the ingredients in ADDYI. Allergic reactions may include hives, itching or trouble breathing. Sleepiness, sometimes serious, can occur. Common side effects include dizziness, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep and dry mouth. See full PI and Medication Guide, including Boxed Warning at addyi.com/pi or call 844-PINK-PILL.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
No one has all the answers, but when we ask
the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I'd come
together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
of thinking by daring to ask, what if, why not?
(00:28):
And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
the conversation. It's time to question everything. Viagra was approved
in six months. Addie, the drug developed for women's desire,
basically the women's viagra, took six years to be approved.
(00:52):
When I first heard that, I had to stop and
ask how is that possible? And then I met the
woman who refused to accept it. Cindy Eckert is a
force an entrepreneur who built and sold two billion dollar
pharmaceutical companies, then bought one back when the mission was abandoned.
(01:13):
She went head to head with the FDA, big pharma,
and an entire cultural script that told women our desire
was psychological, not biological. For six relentless years, she fought
to get Addie approved, the first ever drug for women's
sexual desire.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The greatest lie you were ever sold is that sex
is rooted only in emotion and not biology.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Six years of scrutiny, media backlash, and institutional bias nearly
destroyed her career and her personal life. But Cindy never
stopped because for her, this was never just about sex.
It was about equality. She's known for her pink hair
and her sharp mind. And when I say sharp, I
mean it. She's one of the most brilliant communicators I
(01:57):
have ever met, a rare mix of intellect, emotional fluency,
and charisma. I don't say this often, you guys know.
I don't say the word icon or I don't like platitudes.
Cindy is a unicorn. What defines her most, though, I think,
is her persistence. She's still fighting for women to be
(02:19):
seen and studied in medicine. The idea of female desire
and sex can be blushworthy, but the conversation really isn't.
This is revelatory. We talk about the science of desire,
the medical gaslighting women face, and why men's pleasure was
considered urgent why was ours optional? So we're circling three
(02:40):
questions today. First, what does it reveal about our culture
and our health system that a drug for men's desire
was fast tracked in six months, while a drug for
women's took six years. Two what does it take for
one woman to challenge an entire system built without her
in mind? And Three what can we learn about strategy, communication,
(03:02):
and persuasion from a woman who has sat in big
rooms with big egos in the big leagues. It's time
to question everything with Cindy Eckert. Cindy, welcome to question everything.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I love it so exciting.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I feel like you're such a perfect guest for this
show because you really did question every single norm that
has to do with women's health and our bodies. Before
we get into all of your incredible work, I want
to start from the very beginning. I want to know
who this woman is. You grew up a nomad. What
part of your upbringing shows up in who you are today?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Oh my gosh. I think I had a childhood with
a lot of disruption. Lovely childhood, make no mistake, but
a lot of disruption. I moved every year from the
fourth grade through my senior year of high school, so
I was that kid every year, like here's the new kid,
here's a new kid. And I think that you know,
there are two things that happen when you face a
(04:06):
lot of disruption. I think that you find out that
being uncomfortable isn't a bad thing.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Like you'll you'll make it through.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So when you are that new kid on the edge
of the room, like that's okay, yes, because you have
this unique opportunity to observe what's going on and kind
of form your own opinions. And I think that's the
second big piece. I think you develop like an independence
of thinking that allows you to disrupt. So, you know,
I was so lucky. I was never labeled like I
wasn't in any of the I was the misfit, right,
(04:36):
I wasn't the jock, and I wasn't the popular kid.
I wasn't this or that, And therefore you could really
kind of decide exactly who you are.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I've heard, and I don't have any statistics to back
this up, but it's anecdotal. I've heard that a lot
of entrepreneurs have disruptive childhoods, and a lot of it
is because they have a different risk tolerance.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Makes total sense to that, right, I have to tell
you a story, Danielle, one hundred percent. Actually I was
very honored that Microsoft picked me. Years ago, they were
doing a campaign. They were like working internally about like
how do we create more internal disruptors in a big
corporate structure. So they picked six different disruptors and they
picked me. The condition of it was I had to
(05:22):
be interviewed by a performance psychologist, and I can remember
I got into the on camera and I got into
this interview and he said, what's the craziest thing you've
ever done? And I said, agreed to be interviewed by
a psychologist on camera?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Like what I mean to find here?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
But it was fun because I happened to be the
last of the sixth and so naturally when we were
done recording, I said, Okay, what is it? Like? What's
the common thread? And he said, honestly, you all came
from such different walks of life, but you had one
thing in common. You all moved a lot. And I
thought that's so like we were faced with lots of
(06:00):
different environments, different you know, disruption to just the norm.
I thought that was fascinating. So it totally resonates with me.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
That's also a cool perspective for me to hear because
I came from a very sturdy upbringing and childhood, and
my dad actually did that very purposely, and hearing that
there's an alternative way to do it sort of frees
me up a little bit as a hopeful parent.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
One day, I'm like the woman at the cocktail party
when you know, like the conversations about somebody who recently
moved to the area and like how are your kids
doing with it? I'm like, I have great news for you.
Here's my great news is that?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Actually? You know?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And I think similarly, I have great envy. Like my
sister in law has lived in the same ten mile
radius her whole life, and I go to you know,
life events for her, whether it was her baby showers
or whatever, and I'm like stunned by like the community
of support that she has. So you know, there there
are always there's always advantages right to every different way.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You just got to find them.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Well said, you are a relentless champion of women's health,
and I feel like women who become passionate about women's
health usually have an experience that highlights the disparities that
women face when it comes to healthcare. Do you have
an experience that comes to mind? Or did I make
that up?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
No?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
You didn't make it up. And I'll tell you what
it's actually astonishing to me. So if you look at
my career, you know, I first built a company in
men's sexual health, and I built this company very successful.
Loved being in the space and like creating change for
people around sometimes a taboo topic. But my AHA moment
(07:43):
was actually when the science was presented on women and
really a self reflection, Oh my god, that's me, and
actually calculating in a way through that lens, how often
I'd been dismissed, Like how I'd brought up this very
issue and gotten the you know, padded on the shoulder
(08:04):
and told to be mindful and you know, set the mood,
light the candles, and in a way like I always
thought my obg yn was trying to be helpful and
almost you know, a therapist to me.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
And then like this lightning bulb.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Hit when I saw brain scan imaging of women that
were struggling with this, where I was like, holy shit,
it's biology and nobody has even addressed that for me.
So part of my you know, deepest passion, I think
was not only the science of it all, which I'm
you know, I love and data like show me the
data or you know GTFO, but but also like really
(08:43):
like really seeing myself in it, yeah, and my own
lived and actually having a heightened consciousness once I did that.
That's exactly what was happening to me.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Is that really the moment that led to you founding
sprout file cuticles.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean, like I can almost close my eyes, Danielle
and be like transported to the moment, like I was
struck by lightning.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I saw brain.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Scan images presented at a big sexual medicine conference, So
it's I call that like I was the pink and
the sea of blue pills, right. It was all sexual
medicine at the time was really for men, and there
were brain scan studies being done of women who struggled
with their libido versus women who were happy with it,
and they put.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
The slides up.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And what they did is they took those women, put
them both in an MRI, exposed them to erotica, and
their brains lit up totally differently. The women who were struggling,
their brains did not activate at all in response to
sexual cues, and it was like you could see the
light up versus the lack of Like basically for the
women who were struggling. They weren't shutting all the tabs
(09:50):
of their brain to ever, like you know, respond to sex.
And I think to me it was like hardware, hardware biology.
Oh my god, how insane is this that we've never
considered that women are also just biologically wired to desire sex.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I have a question about this. So I'm Gloria Steinhem's
fellow for the year, and I know it was in Oh,
oh my God for me too. But I was in
her living room a few weeks ago and we were
talking about sex, and she's so funny about it because
she's totally neutral. She has apps like it's like a
doctor talking about it. I think that's part of and
(10:29):
I'm just assuming or inferring, but part of her message
is like, it's natural, it's normal. I don't want to
give any power to it, one way or the other.
We were talking about I told them I was going
to be interviewing you, and we were talking about how men,
older men feel all of this pressure because we assume
societally or culturally that they are supposed to want to
(10:49):
have sex all the time, and we don't assign that
to women. Although a lot of the women I know
want to have sex just as much, if not more
than men. Yeah, And she said, I don't know why
we put so much pressure on it. Sex is really
about reproduction, so as we get older, like sure, we're
(11:10):
gonna want it less. And I never thought about that.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
What are you?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
What are you? And that was I shared it with
my friends. Some of them were sort of triggered by
that statement. I'm curious what you think.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I might be triggered Danielle. Here's what I think, and
I will tell you. I have a glorious stein a
moment where I was going to speak at an event
in New York City about like breaking barriers, and I
got on a plane in Raleigh, North Carolina, and she
was sitting.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Next to me, and I thought, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Universe, what what's happening? And we had this lovely conversation
that she would never remember, but you know, she kind
of she kind of gave me the pat on the
shoulder and said, we all do our part. I think
that here's here's what I'll tell you is really interesting
and I think this has been an underpinning to the
whole my whole journey and even the journey of the product.
The first FDA of proof product for women's desire, right
(12:01):
is I think there was a cultural moment in which
all things related to sex became objectification for women. I
would say that's the Steino moment, right like, I think
she really deeply felt that and was fighting against that.
I can't speak for her, but just based on all
the things I've read and consumed, and I think that
that has shifted through time, and I feel that actually
(12:24):
it's complete agency to have power over your own pleasure.
I don't believe you can go through the sexual revolution
and end it reproduction. I don't think we've actually made
change until we see it all the way through pleasure.
And so I hope you have sex the rest of
your life. And the reason I say that is because
(12:45):
the benefits to your physical and mental health are undeniable,
and it's the connection that we need as we want
as human means. If you don't want to have sex,
don't have sex, but by all means, you deserve pleasure
for the entirety of your life. Sex actually isn't just
a means for reproduction. I reject that.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I really like your response to that. I didn't have
the words for it, but I felt like well, I
hope I get to have sex the rest of my
life because to me, so much of it is about
like creativity and freedom, and if that's something that you want,
(13:24):
there should be a way to try and make that happen.
I'm curious about the conversations you had when you first
had this spark of an idea. Can you take me
back to that moment when you see the brain scans
light up? What was your next move? Who did you
talk to you What did those early conversations look like.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Okay, my very first move was I talked to all
the best researchers in the world, and I said, can
I talk to any of your patients? And I spent
a year with the best researchers in the world, really
like most of them having moved the entire category of
men's sexual health forward, and you know, they met with
partners to these some of these men had partners who
(14:02):
were similarly struggling. And what I couldn't believe is not
only that I was so really privileged that women shared
this private struggle with me, but also how similar their
stories were. It's I'm going back to that, like Microsoft, like,
what's the common thread, right, what's the common thread. These
were women of all age bands, of all walks of life,
(14:23):
of all different relationship status, and yet almost to a person,
they described it the same way. They're like, I don't
know what happened is like the switch one out?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
They're like, I once was there an age that happened?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
No, totally indiscriminate across the age bands, like I'm talking
everything from you know, a twenty two year old to
a sixty five year old to a seventy year old.
We got the best letter from a woman that was
seventy seven at the company. But the common thread was
I want to want but something changed and I can't.
(14:57):
I can't figure out what it is. And it it
turns out what it was was biology. And yet the
narrative and the culture fed to her like try harder.
I think there's so many parallels in this to the
conversation that I hope we're having around obesity, weight, you
(15:18):
know where, think about for so long we've shamed and
stigmatized people with this struggle, and then all of a
sudden and they've tried all the lifestyle modify. It's all
lifestyle modification is always good for all of us. Sleep more,
be less, stressed, don't drink, all those things we all know.
But regardless of what they did, it didn't shift. And
(15:40):
then it's as if the world in the last few
years went, oh my god, maybe it's genetics. Oh my god,
are you of course it's genetics. And so here are
these folks that have struggled for so long and now
there's a solution for them. But they waded through all
of that shame and stigma. And I feel like I
draw a lot of parallels to that here because these
(16:01):
women were so struggling and no one was listening. They
were telling them basically do better.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
When I think about what the rhetoric would be for
a man who was saying I'm struggling with this, there's
so much empathy. They feel sorry for their manhood. There's
just so much there. And we're telling women to do better.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yes, well, I mean like we value male leisure and
men similarly feel quite entitled to it because that's culturally embedded,
and women don't, which is culturally embedded. And you know,
that's really what we've got to examine. I mean, I say,
my fiance and I have this party trick. I don't
know that's really a party trick, but he thinks it is,
and at some point in the night, you know, the
(16:45):
conversation comes up, like what do you do?
Speaker 3 (16:47):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And when people ask me that, he looks at him
like and hear shakes his head like, oh god, buckle up.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Here she goes.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
And what's so interesting is if you have, you know,
like a male female couple stand across from you, and
I say, there's a moment that the woman has to
process like are we talking about this out loud? There's
an actual, like almost physical lean back away from me,
and then the guy leans in and he's like can
I take it? And all I'm seeing and that interaction
(17:17):
is the cultural conditioning that he understands that he's entitled
to pleasure and she's not sure we even are allowed
to discuss it.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
It's mirrored in pornography. I took a gender studies class
in college and had three weeks on pornography and we
actually had to watch certain videos and see that the
and I'm going to be sort of graphic, but yeah,
the end of most porn videos is a cumshot and
(17:46):
it's about male pleasure. It has nothing to do with
female pleasure. And that is the like, what is it
called in a song?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
The climax, the climaction always all my.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Words, I'm sorry, welcome to my life.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So if you can nerd out with me, how does
the drug work?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, to know how it works is just to understand
its origin. So just think for a second. I'm looking
at these brain scan studies. Right, here's this radical difference
in the ignition in essence of the sex center of
the brain. So, punchline, this is women's biggest sex organ.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Their brain.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
We are brain flow, not blood flow, truly, Like this
is where it ignites.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
And so ada is a mood drug.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It works on dopamine and serotonin, works on key like neurotransmitters.
And what you know is like, we're actually quite familiar
with products that work on neurotransmitters. We anti depressants, anti
anxiety meds, It've been on market for years. What are
their most common side effects? They harm your sex drive.
So basically the thesis was, well, if it's true that
(18:52):
we can work on those neurotransmitters and it causes depression
of sexual function, then it should also be true scientifically
that you could work there and increase it. And that's
that's Addie in a nutshell. I mean, in its most
basic form, it's a non hormonal pill that's working on
igniting that sex center of the brain. And that was
(19:14):
the switch that had gone out for all of those
women that I taught. Like, that's why I think they
describe it that way, because it's really like that, it
never percolates, it never responds to sexual cues.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, I'm sort of thinking like a light switch, like
it just doesn't turn on. Yep, this is going to
be an ignorant question. I try not to ask those
on this podcast, but similar to I think questions that
people had around viagra. Yeah, the fear was that you
took a viagra and you would be hard all day
or at inconvenient times.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
What is the equivalent to that with Addie? Is it
just when the sexual cue happens? And can you like
what if you're at work and you're like, wait, why
why did my boss say something? It's like that's I
didn't mean to get turned on by that.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
That's funny. I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
What's so funny is like the very first piece of
press I did. They came to the office, it was
nightline and they're like, but what happens if Channing Tatum
walks into the world.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
That's actually a way better way of asking the question what.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Is happening.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
The truth is no, it's much more subtle than that.
It's really like returning back to that normal you once had.
And I think that it's about really you do ignite
around partner. It's not hyper sexuality. Let me say it
a different way. In fact, honestly, in clinical trials you
must measure for that. You have to make sure that
(20:46):
on the scales you're not pushing people into hyper sexuality.
And I'll go back to that parallel even around like
you know, medications that work on anxiety and stuff or
or mood.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
You know, you're isn't.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Like euphoria, right, You're not walking around euphoric every day.
You're just back to that like place where you were
doing you know, your best, And that's I think that's
adding and in truth, like honestly, it's also an important
expectation because if people think they're gonna like take a
naddy and swing from the chandelier tonight.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I'm gonna disappoint you.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Not because of the drug if that happens, because it's
really just not how it works.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right, And you said it affects or it works with
the dopamine. Yeah, in your brain does it affect the dopamine?
So if you're taking it consistently, is your body still
developing the same amount of dopamine if you stop taking it?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, it's really sort of that. And I think it's
similar to like that dopamine is around excitation, like excitatory factors.
That's why in mood products like they're the happy you know,
we all know the dopamine, the dopamine phenomenon, and then
like the distinct I think in ADDIE's mechanism is it's
around inhibition. So typically, like why do these mood products
(22:07):
like SSRIs is a classic drug cause that it's caused
like sexual libido to drop. It's typically because it causes
some inhibition.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, that's interesting. What's a belief about sex that you
wish every woman could unlearn today?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
The greatest lie you were ever sold is that sex
for you is rooted solely in emotion and not biology.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That's so relieving.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It is so relieving actually, like when you're really struggling
with this, and I will say maybe the best moment
for me in any room is when a woman comes
over and talks to me about this and.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
She has actual relief.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, And I think that it's so prototypical for women
who struggle with this condition type A in charge, succeeding
in every aspect of their life, and like the tabs
never close for her to really enjoy sex or think
about sex, and then she realizes like, oh, but it's
brain chemistry. Yeah, and then all of those things that
(23:05):
she's felt bad about or felt defensive about really slip away.
And it's that same grace we give to people who
struggle with medical issues when we say, no, no, it's
not you. It's your genetics or your biology betraying you.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
And there are.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Ways that you can do that. And there's a myriad
of ways, right, Like, it doesn't mean in lieu of
lifestyle modifications and some of that work, but to have
those tools makes all the difference.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Viagra was fast tracked for approval within six months, yeah,
and Addie took six years. The irony of the six
is just not lost on me. Can you break it
down for us? What did the system teach you about
the types of gaps and solutions for women?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
It speaks volumes at disparity doesn't it. That's all I
have to say to you is that the blue pill
was deemed to me such and an important unmet medical need.
It was so important for a man to get an
erection that it received fast track status through the FDA
in just six months. It took us six years. And
don't miss this point, we had four times as many
(24:12):
patients worth of data in our clinical trials. ADI is
the largest studied drug for sex at the time of approval,
male or female. So, like you, just I want women
to hear that we have more data on a product
for sex for women, And I think that's really, like,
it was so important to see that. Like I was
(24:34):
debating when you said, what's the one other thing you'd
want women to relearn about sex? It's really this pleasure principle,
isn't it, Because like exactly your experiment on porn is
that the construct is pleasure is ours to deliver, not
ours to receive. And I think that goes way beyond
the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
By the way, where do you put pleasure with desire?
Because I guess my next question for you after hearing
that was why do you think female desire still makes
people so uncomfortable?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
You know, I think that it's just is potentially the
most scary thing to all of the cultural norms. A
woman who has complete agency over everything, including her own satisfaction.
And I don't mean that to be like independent and
needs nobody, Like we all want human connection and and
you know, intimacy with a partner in all of that,
(25:25):
but like, is that really what is challenged here? This
like idea and when we when we have to move
away from a notion that women are ruled solely by
their emotion scary to us. It's so deeply embedded. I mean,
for your like health care, Like healthcare is embedded with
this bias. It's embedded in every way. It's not only
(25:48):
in the regulatory queue that would impose a radically double standard,
you know for products specifically for women, but it shows
up in you know, medical training, in the interaction with
medical professionals, in advertising standards, Like it's just really through
every I've lived, every, every single aspect of that in
(26:11):
this journey.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Well, you essentially fought the US government over this drug.
We're kind of giggling, but it's not funny. You really did.
As someone who's gone head to head with an agency
like the FDA, What did you.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Learn that.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
You have humans on the other side of the table
that have unbelievable unconscious bias and that in a way,
like those things that we believe sacred and just scientific standards. Look,
all science is just you got to prove it, right,
you do it with blinded trials, you do it with
plascebo controls. You have to meet the definitions of success
(26:53):
that the FDA themselves set for you. And yet right,
and yet we were interpreting data through a lens of opinion.
I mean the amount of discussion that happened when we
were first approved around how much more sex should she
need to have for her to get a drug?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
What did you ultimately have to prove to get the
drug approved?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So we proved three things. So in clinical trials we
had to prove not only did we increase women's desire
to have sex, but when they had sex, it was
more satisfying sex to them. And importantly, don't miss this,
that it reduced their distress. ADDIE's a mood drug. And
women who are struggling with this are really struggling with this,
(27:35):
Like we can laugh and I've been in sex for
so long, I tell really great jokes, right, because that's
a way to enter into sometimes these conversations that can
be tougher for people to have, and yet like they're
really struggling with it. So my takeaway from the FDA is,
FDA is filled with humans. Humans can impose their own bias,
(27:56):
and you've got to be relentless in really exposing that
bias and getting to the answer. Science had the answer
the whole time. It just took us a minute to
get out of our own way and listen to it.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
About two questions ago, when I asked you about fighting
the government or the FDA, you took a big breath
before you answered me. What do you remember about that time? Personally,
it signaled like it was just more difficult than you
were even letting on.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Oh it's are you joke?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
It's been so the trauma in a way to me,
Like I'm a very optimistic person. I believe if you're
faced with the obstacle, you got to find the work around,
you know, convicted to the core and yet right like
I have moments like I just had to bury it
(28:48):
and move through and bury it and move through, and
like I'm ten years out now and I can look
back on that. I can look back on just the
craziest letters that would come in and like I think
about my dad and how upset he was right, like
I'm going to get upset because like, oh my god.
And he would say to me, Cindy, can you please
just work on diabetes? Like his reason for that was
(29:11):
because when it's sex, everyone has an opinion, but you
just stay that, you know, you stay the course, and
it tests you to see how much do you really
want to see this through? Like how much does it matter?
And I think that's every that's still today, right, I
still get these crazy challenges and it's not just people's opinion.
It's just like how do you dismantle the systemic bias
(29:34):
that's holding women back? And like the hill I die on,
is no more medical gaslighting of women?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Are the tears from your dad? Your dad's fear, your
dad's nerves? Oh what was that?
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I think it's just like the you know, everybody who's
around me has had to live through this too, Like
I chose it, they didn't, and they had to watch
all the arrows being thrown. I mean, you know, it's funny.
I have two big brothers. Like how everybody My family
stood with me the day at the FDA. They all
came right and like they stood there and waited for
(30:09):
this decision, and yet you know they had been through
their own Termoal. My brother to this day, when I
call him, there is the most hideous photo like illustration
of me from one of the articles at the time,
and it's still like he saved it in his phones.
Every time I call him, it's what pops up because
he thinks it's funny.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
He likes to show me a good brother, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And but I'm like, I'm I'm the devil, Like I'm
painted like the devil in this thing.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
And it fueled me.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
But there's no question it came with some some cost.
Like I don't allow myself to feel that often, Daniel,
But I think when you ask, like it's it's underneath
the surface.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I could only imagine. I mean, it's sort of I
think like our version of the Salem witch Trials in
some ways. Yeah, do you ever get cynical? What keeps
you going?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
This to God?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
What keeps me going is that women to this day
still write me every day. They might send me a DM,
they might send me an email, and like I just
got one from a woman literally last night, and I
like said, this brings tears to my eyes that you
would take the time tell me this story. And like
she said, I've got hope back. And she's like, and
I realize that you've actually been doing this for a
(31:22):
long time. Like, I'm sure she has fought her own
personal battle, right, So like, thanks for continuing continuing the fight.
So that's what really keeps me going. I mean, I
think we all have our moments of cynicism. But again,
like to me, that's just the challenge and the test
of like, how much are you gonna you know, see
this all the way through? And the answer is to
(31:44):
the end until we change the conversation forever.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Earlier, you clarified a difference between women being understudied and
undervalued in twenty twenty five. How are women still so
undervalued from a healthcare perspective?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Women are undervalued for that very premise, that is that
women are are ruled by emotion or psychology and not biology.
So long as I can continue to believe that, I
can continue to dismiss you when you show up with
real medical symptoms, right, And unfortunately I think this is
the thing now we have to be hyper conscious of.
(32:24):
So because of that, like we are because we are undervalued,
we are understudied, and so what we've found as our
medicine has been unproven, often like questionable products that aren't
studied in our bodies, that have no merit to the
claims that they make, and so long as we continue
(32:45):
to allow that or be participants in purchasing those things,
no one ever gets an incentive to study us. So
we're part of the cycle. Like I hate to say that.
I mean, I say it to all my girlfriends who
like bring a baggie full of all sorts of things
that they take to every lunch table. I'm like, what
is that? Who studied it? Where is it monitored? And
I'm it's not to say that there aren't products that are,
(33:07):
you know, wonderful out there that are certainly alternatives to medication. However,
if we accept that the gummy is all we got,
we're never getting real science. And I think I'm seeing
that that shift even generate racially, where they're like, Nope,
don't sell me the thing with the big promise and
(33:28):
the little fine print that says you've never studied it
in my body. You know, there's no merit to those clams.
So I think that's where we break understudied when we
demand more evidence.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I've seen you talk about this topic, but I personally
was shocked to learn just a year or two ago
that tampons weren't tested with real female blood, and so
it was like, yeah, of course they're not working great
for all of us, are we surpromised? I know, And
that's something that affects fifty percent of the population every
single It's really wild.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
It's wild. It's wild.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Like there's so many layers, like we could have a
whole show just on this, like how does this begin?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
When did it begin? Right?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
How does it get perpetuated? And like and now great,
what can I do about it?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And I think what I can do about it is
that that demand of evidence.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I have to give you your flowers because it's rare
to see a person do so many things at such
a high level. You are not just a scientist an expert.
You're an expert science communicator and you're a bad ass
business woman. And I don't use that term. I don't
like like colloquialisms in that way, but you really embody it.
(34:44):
You reacquired sprout after selling it for a billion dollars
with a bee you could have done anything after that.
To me, that signal you had unfinished business. What should Yeah,
what shaped your DECI vision to go back?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
You know, when a woman sets out to do something,
she doesn't stop until it's done. And I did not
fight this hard when men had twenty six FDA pre
products for women to finally have won for the company
who purchased it from me to put it on the shelf,
not on my watch, no chance.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
That was not what we set out to do.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
And I really tell you, like, this has never been
about a product at all. This has been about something
so much bigger, bigger than me, and about changing a conversation.
And to me, like it was devastating when we finally
won and then women couldn't get it, what all those
(35:45):
women that had talked to me and everything else. And
so I think it was just about making right by
the mission.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Did anyone try to talk you out of it?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I think that the you know,
the sigh of relief after like being out of the
the line of fire, right like just the arrows, Like
I always say that, I know, like you know, what's
the expression, like the pioneers have arrows in their back.
I'm always looking around like I feel I think I
still have some marks there and like you get beyond that,
(36:13):
and everybody would have assumed. I think that success for
me was defined as that big exit, like it is
an entrepreneurial dream come true. Right, I've created a solution
to a big need and that's why. And yet that's
not my definition of success, and so it wasn't done.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
What is your definition of success now, impact? Yeah, what's
something in business that you have done like a woman
and it worked better than the boys? Oh?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I love it? Well.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
I have to storytell this to to tell you. So
I was in a pitch meeting and I had some
of my like now you know VC friends, the guys
in the blue and gray suits, exactly as you would imagine,
who absolutely would have never written me a check at
the beginning, but now they think, maybe.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Cindy's onto something. I'm going to come sit in this room.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And there was a woman who was pitching a technology
to basically help with concussions, and in the middle of
her presentation, she like got very choked up, just like
I did with you, not that long ago, right, she
got choked up and she moved through it. But she
had like this box of all her prototypes and it
was like it was like in her grandmother's old Cuban
(37:26):
cigar box. I loved it. We left the room, and
it's funny. The guy sat with me and they were like,
I can't believe you didn't say something to her when
she broke down, And I said, like what, And they're like,
you know, there's no crying in business, like the kind
of there's no Cindy, you're her mentor like you go
tell her that. I said, you guys are such idiots.
The moment that she started to cry was the moment
(37:47):
I knew I was investing. That was the moment like
I knew how much it mattered to her that minute,
like it I'm gonna cry, Like I feel that of
founders right, like you're so emotionally invested, Like she's not
going to stop until it's done. Like it's the same thing.
And like they they read it as a sign of weakness.
(38:08):
I read it completely differently in that room, completely different.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I'm so grateful you shared that story. I'm a crier?
Are you a crier?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
A total crier.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yes, such a crier, and I have to see Hi, everybody.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Well, you're actually a very pretty crier. I not so much.
I more have the ugly Kim Kardashian crying face. But
I've cried at work a few times, and I'm always
sort of questioning whether that's okay or not, and I'm
not sure, and so I I think sometimes I cry
out of frustration, sometimes out of passion, And so thank
you for sharing that. Yeah, from your perspective of making
(38:49):
a deal, how do you know you're being taken? Seriously,
how do you know when you have the upper hand.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I think there's a moment when the room goes silent,
and you know, like I think that's the moment where
they're just quietly listening.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
And I think if you don't have that moment, you
go silent until they do.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
I presented at like the biggest healthcare conference. It was
like I had won Willy wonkas ticket. Like I was
like this tiny little you know, this tiny little private
company trying to get this big ambition of this product approved.
Forget that I already had a track record having built
and sold a company, but like this seemed so far afield.
Nobody wanted to touch it. And I remember being invited
(39:36):
and you get like you got like six minutes on
the clock, eight minutes on the clock, I can't remember,
and like your big counter is right in front of you.
And I got up to talk about sex and it
was a room full of bankers. The giggle that went
across the crowd, you cannot believe it like started and
it like went through the whole audience like the wave.
And I remember like looking up because they were so loud,
(40:00):
and I'm watching my like minutes disappear, and I fast
forward in my slide as fast as I could do
the brain scans, and I just went silent and pointed
until the whole room went silent, and I was like,
I'm just here to talk about the biology of sex.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Can I continue?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
And like they didn't make another peep the rest of
them meeting.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
They like you went full on sixth grade teacher on them.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
They were like, yes, but it made them conscious of
how ridiculous they were. And I think you do know,
like in a moment where you've got the room like
they are listening to you, you hear it, like you
hear the lack of like all the chitter chatter, and
I would just say, like, I think it's one of
my my negotiation tricks for all ladies. If you're not
being taken seriously, just go quiet for a minute.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Which can be a little uncomfortable, so you'll have to
get used to that totally.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Say I told you that was the value of my
childhood being comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Great call to bring a full circle. You had an
incubator called the Pink Ceiling and it gives candid feedback
to women entrepreneurs to pitch you, and you have this quote.
I love you said. What I fear is that if
we do too much cheerleading and not enough straight talk,
we're going to set up a lot of young women
for failure. They were brave enough to start a business
(41:18):
from scratch, and we congratulate them for it without telling
them candidly that their business plan isn't scalable or sustainable. Okay,
you said you're an optimist, and so I wouldn't be
curious about everyone's answer, But I'm curious about your answer
to this, because how are you balancing being an idealist
(41:39):
who can spot a unicorn disruptor company and a realist
who knows when something's not going to work.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
I speak truth always because I think that's the greatest
sign of respect that we can give to each other.
But I will always lean toward optimism, and because I
I think every woman deserves to know that somebody is
betting on her. She's not given a lot of that,
(42:06):
And so like if I had to trade one over another,
I'll lean toward optimism. But I do think in that quote,
and I appreciate you picking that one out, I think
candor is compassion. I think saying it straight to each
other is the most respectful thing we can do. And
the last thing I want when I think of you know,
the I'm so lucky, like people with big dreams come
(42:29):
and share them with me, and I might get to
be a participant, you know in that Like if I
don't say the truth to them, they do have all
the chops to go do it. It's just not this thing,
And that's what I want to make sure that I reinforce.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
It's not them. Just as the.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Idea people with big dreams come and share them with
me is such a beautiful thing to say. Yeah, what
do you think the best way to give negative feedback is?
Do you do that?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Compliment sandwich n But no, I would much rather go
straight in like I'm I'm always with somebody.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Hopefully this isn't off putting to people.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
But I'm very like blunt, and you know, I want
to say it with this may be hard to hear,
but I need to tell you this and then we
work through it on the other side of that, right, Like,
but I think you have to just set the stage
and I'm going to say it.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
I wonder what my team would say.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
I don't know if I even give them the preamble
this might be hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I just say it, Well, they know you at this point.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, and we talk about that, like I actually talk
about that honestly, even in interviews, Like to be here
is to be constructively irreverent, like that's part of our
DNA and so you got to be able to listen
to the thing and process it and in the end,
like we will make a decision together, but we will
lock arms and go conquer the world, like, but we're
(43:49):
going to make that decision together in here, and we're
going to tell each other the truth.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
For someone listening who does have an idea, and I
will shout out the people that listen to this podcast
because because they DM me and email me with such
awesome ideas and they have they're really smart people. I
always say they're interested and interesting. So I do think
there will be a lot of people curious to hear
your answer. For someone listening who does have an idea,
(44:16):
give us your take on how to build a really
amazing pitch that cuts through the noise.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I will tell you, I think this is lost on
a great pitch. It's really not about telling me what
you're trying to do. It's convincing me why you're the
one to do it. That's all I'm listening for. Great
ideas don't execute themselves. People execute great ideas. And that's
(44:44):
the only thing I'm really figuring out in that interaction
with you.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Wow, so you are fully of the mindset you're investing
in the entrepreneur over those absolutely? Yeah. What do you
know about power now that you and understand in your twenties?
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I think, look power in its most conventional definition. I
think when we're in our twenties is you know that
next rung of the ladder. It might be status, it
might be money, it might be you know, celebrity for
some people, and I'm very clear that power is impact
(45:22):
and the deep contentment that comes from that, Like, actually,
you know, there's a professional power, and professional power to
me is really impact and the personal power is being
content in who you are, so like doing those things
that truly feed you and who you want to be
in this world. Nothing will make you happier than that.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
I've been listening to a lot of podcasts lately with
people who I think have I've coined this term post
economic like they've made a ton of money and are
sharing a lot of messages about self work, and I
think sometimes it's hard to ingest because my first instinct
is like, yeah, now you have the time to do
(46:06):
all that the caveat And what I know deep down
is that my career has only risen to the height
of my personal growth, and so I really deeply understand
the importance of what you're saying. My question is, what
did you do personally to grow and to support your
(46:30):
personal growth while you've been on this journey.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I'm insanely curious, Like, I just think that's it, Like,
as you describe your listeners, that's why I love you
so much too, Like I love the like I'm endlessly fascinated.
And so every day I sit down, whether I'm on
like an airplane or you know, in my office, I
recognize that I have mentors actually sitting to my left
(46:54):
and my right. Everyone can teach you something, and I
think that is the personal growth. Like I cannot even
imagine like waking up tomorrow and be like I did it,
I know it all. Like how boring would that day
actually be? Every day I'm learning. When I built my
first company, we had this like little in office procedure
that you did, and it was new. So we filmed
(47:16):
like all these experts in the world doing this procedure.
And I can remember like the first medical conference we
got up to like train the masses, and we showed
all these different experts and I remember looking at the
audience and it's an audience of surgeons. Okay, so I'm
going to tell you ninety nine percent of the audience
had their arms crossed in front of them and they
(47:37):
were leaning back in their chair like modestly, like shaking
their head like no, that's not how.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
You do it, no, no, no, wow.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
And one percent of the room was like leaning forward
like ooh, I never thought of that. That's so interesting. Right,
because not everybody does everything the same way. Who was
the one percent, the one percent in the world, who
were these the experts that everybody aspired to be. They
were still learning and the rest of the room was like,
that's not how you do it. And I think that
(48:06):
was a wonderful lesson for me. And I think, you
know how I try to live every day to continue
to personally grow and again like find that contentment even
in knowing you don't know everything, Like that's a that's
good too. There's that means there's so much more of
the journey left ahead.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yes, I have this quote on my card game that
says charmed are the curious, for they shall have adventure.
And I think curiosity is at the center of all
the great stuff in life, like of creativity, of relationship.
And it sounds so dorky to.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Talk about, No, it's so spot on, Danielle.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
It's that's it.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
The most successful people like I feel like I've been
so lucky to come across like people who've done big things.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Like you know, famous things, all of that, and like, if.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
There's one thing they are insatiably curious, this is their magnificence,
is like their curiosity, And so I love that I'm
writing that down right now.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Read no, No, I'll send it to U. I have
to send you the card game anyways.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
I need to put it on my wall behind me
next time we got on us.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
You actually just unlocked something for me, though, because I
saw this great clip of Trevor Noah interviewing Oprah and
he said, you've interviewed so many successful people, what do
they all have in common? And she thought for a
second and said, they all know where they're going. And
it's a powerful statement, but I did not resonate with it.
(49:43):
And listen, I'm not Oprah, but I've interviewed a bunch
of people who don't necessarily know where they're going immediately
they kind of feel the next right step. And so
for you to say the common threat is curiosity, that
is what I have fund That is the truth.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah, I would not say I know exactly where I'm going,
no way, Like I actually don't even want to.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I don't. I want to like.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Have the the adventure ahead of learning something new that
will inform where I go and make the next step,
like being open always to that, like what the world
is showing you or teaching you is so important to me.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
I agree. I really wish I could talk to you
for a whole nother hour. But I have some rapid
fire questions for you.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Okay, let's go.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
What is a hill you're willing to die on?
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Oh, I'm dying on the hill that women will no
longer experience medical gaslighting?
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Nope?
Speaker 1 (50:44):
What is a question you'd like to be asked? Something
that you like to talk about but nobody ever brings up.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
No one ever asked me about my farm animals?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
But I have two pigs, six chickens, and two dogs
that live at my house and I like to call
it pink Acres. And I understand why nobody wants to
talk about my pigs, but I would talk about them mendlessly.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
That is so cute. Are you a vegetarian by any chance?
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (51:08):
God, don't tell them.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Don't Okay, I won't, and we could pretend I didn't
ask that question. What is the best piece of advice
someone's given you that you've actually applied to your own
life and had success with.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
You will love it more if you earn it.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Cindy, you gave me chills when you said it. What
is a book that changed your life, something you think
everybody should read.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Oh my gosh, I'm such a fan of Pat Lencioni
and he wrote a book called The Five Temptations of
a CEO. I'm kicking at old school right now. Okay,
that hasn't hurt his feelings. But he actually talked about hiring,
which I think is so crucial.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Success is not a solo sport, so who you find
to surround you is so crucial to your journey. And
he said there are three characteristics they need to be hungry, humble,
and smart. And I think that has really stayed with
me as I built organizations.
Speaker 3 (52:07):
So love the book.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Such a great read, Five Temptations of the CEO.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Thank you for sharing that. What's something every woman should
try once?
Speaker 2 (52:17):
Every woman should have sex every day for thirty days
and see how much it improves her the quality of
her mental, physical health and connection.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
Wait, this is so fun. I have to tell you.
Nobody's given me that answer, yet.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
There you go. That is amazing. Let's try.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
My last question is from my card game.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Okay, because we're virtual, you just have to tell me
when you feel like I should stop. Okay, now, if
you could relive one night from the past without changing anything.
What night would it be.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Oh, I would relive the night before we got the
FDA news because we threw a victory party and we
didn't know whether or not we were getting approved. And
I will tell you, the chairman of my board thought
I had absolutely lost my mind because I threw a
(53:15):
victory party for the team, and I said, look, whatever
happens tomorrow, we have done everything we could do inside
of our own power, and so we really do enter
the arena as champions.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Wow. Was your family there? Yes, Oh, you're getting emotional.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
It's such such a good every like and so many
people I love like took the time to like fly,
you know, they like people who'd been part of my
teams in the past that weren't even part of my
team that day, like flew in to be with me
in the room that day.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Like that was incredible. I'm still emotion about it.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
Well, you're such an inspiring leader like you. You lead
with honesty and compassion. I get why former employees would
fly in seaking with my executive coach this morning about
beliefs versus expectations. Yeah, and I think that I have
been trying to believe things, and maybe some manifestations haven't
(54:12):
come because it's actually better to expect. I think she said,
things happen when you expect, and it's like you expected
a victory.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Yeah I did. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yeah, you're one of the most remarkable people I've ever
spoken to.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
Oh, Danielle, thank you well.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
I've been wanting to do this with you for so long.
I'm so glad we did it.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Thank you for that. Okay, you know what time it is.
Today's a good day. To have a good day. I'll
see you next week.
No one has all the answers, but when we ask
the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I'd come
together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
of thinking by daring to ask, what if, why not?
(00:28):
And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
the conversation. It's time to question everything. Viagra was approved
in six months. Addie, the drug developed for women's desire,
basically the women's viagra, took six years to be approved.
(00:52):
When I first heard that, I had to stop and
ask how is that possible? And then I met the
woman who refused to accept it. Cindy Eckert is a
force an entrepreneur who built and sold two billion dollar
pharmaceutical companies, then bought one back when the mission was abandoned.
(01:13):
She went head to head with the FDA, big pharma,
and an entire cultural script that told women our desire
was psychological, not biological. For six relentless years, she fought
to get Addie approved, the first ever drug for women's
sexual desire.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The greatest lie you were ever sold is that sex
is rooted only in emotion and not biology.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Six years of scrutiny, media backlash, and institutional bias nearly
destroyed her career and her personal life. But Cindy never
stopped because for her, this was never just about sex.
It was about equality. She's known for her pink hair
and her sharp mind. And when I say sharp, I
mean it. She's one of the most brilliant communicators I
(01:57):
have ever met, a rare mix of intellect, emotional fluency,
and charisma. I don't say this often, you guys know.
I don't say the word icon or I don't like platitudes.
Cindy is a unicorn. What defines her most, though, I think,
is her persistence. She's still fighting for women to be
(02:19):
seen and studied in medicine. The idea of female desire
and sex can be blushworthy, but the conversation really isn't.
This is revelatory. We talk about the science of desire,
the medical gaslighting women face, and why men's pleasure was
considered urgent why was ours optional? So we're circling three
(02:40):
questions today. First, what does it reveal about our culture
and our health system that a drug for men's desire
was fast tracked in six months, while a drug for
women's took six years. Two what does it take for
one woman to challenge an entire system built without her
in mind? And Three what can we learn about strategy, communication,
(03:02):
and persuasion from a woman who has sat in big
rooms with big egos in the big leagues. It's time
to question everything with Cindy Eckert. Cindy, welcome to question everything.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
I love it so exciting.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I feel like you're such a perfect guest for this
show because you really did question every single norm that
has to do with women's health and our bodies. Before
we get into all of your incredible work, I want
to start from the very beginning. I want to know
who this woman is. You grew up a nomad. What
part of your upbringing shows up in who you are today?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Oh my gosh. I think I had a childhood with
a lot of disruption. Lovely childhood, make no mistake, but
a lot of disruption. I moved every year from the
fourth grade through my senior year of high school, so
I was that kid every year, like here's the new kid,
here's a new kid. And I think that you know,
there are two things that happen when you face a
(04:06):
lot of disruption. I think that you find out that
being uncomfortable isn't a bad thing.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Like you'll you'll make it through.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So when you are that new kid on the edge
of the room, like that's okay, yes, because you have
this unique opportunity to observe what's going on and kind
of form your own opinions. And I think that's the
second big piece. I think you develop like an independence
of thinking that allows you to disrupt. So, you know,
I was so lucky. I was never labeled like I
wasn't in any of the I was the misfit, right,
(04:36):
I wasn't the jock, and I wasn't the popular kid.
I wasn't this or that, And therefore you could really
kind of decide exactly who you are.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I've heard, and I don't have any statistics to back
this up, but it's anecdotal. I've heard that a lot
of entrepreneurs have disruptive childhoods, and a lot of it
is because they have a different risk tolerance.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Makes total sense to that, right, I have to tell
you a story, Danielle, one hundred percent. Actually I was
very honored that Microsoft picked me. Years ago, they were
doing a campaign. They were like working internally about like
how do we create more internal disruptors in a big
corporate structure. So they picked six different disruptors and they
picked me. The condition of it was I had to
(05:22):
be interviewed by a performance psychologist, and I can remember
I got into the on camera and I got into
this interview and he said, what's the craziest thing you've
ever done? And I said, agreed to be interviewed by
a psychologist on camera?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Like what I mean to find here?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
But it was fun because I happened to be the
last of the sixth and so naturally when we were
done recording, I said, Okay, what is it? Like? What's
the common thread? And he said, honestly, you all came
from such different walks of life, but you had one
thing in common. You all moved a lot. And I
thought that's so like we were faced with lots of
(06:00):
different environments, different you know, disruption to just the norm.
I thought that was fascinating. So it totally resonates with me.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
That's also a cool perspective for me to hear because
I came from a very sturdy upbringing and childhood, and
my dad actually did that very purposely, and hearing that
there's an alternative way to do it sort of frees
me up a little bit as a hopeful parent.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
One day, I'm like the woman at the cocktail party
when you know, like the conversations about somebody who recently
moved to the area and like how are your kids
doing with it? I'm like, I have great news for you.
Here's my great news is that?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Actually? You know?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And I think similarly, I have great envy. Like my
sister in law has lived in the same ten mile
radius her whole life, and I go to you know,
life events for her, whether it was her baby showers
or whatever, and I'm like stunned by like the community
of support that she has. So you know, there there
are always there's always advantages right to every different way.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You just got to find them.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Well said, you are a relentless champion of women's health,
and I feel like women who become passionate about women's
health usually have an experience that highlights the disparities that
women face when it comes to healthcare. Do you have
an experience that comes to mind? Or did I make
that up?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
No?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
You didn't make it up. And I'll tell you what
it's actually astonishing to me. So if you look at
my career, you know, I first built a company in
men's sexual health, and I built this company very successful.
Loved being in the space and like creating change for
people around sometimes a taboo topic. But my AHA moment
(07:43):
was actually when the science was presented on women and
really a self reflection, Oh my god, that's me, and
actually calculating in a way through that lens, how often
I'd been dismissed, Like how I'd brought up this very
issue and gotten the you know, padded on the shoulder
(08:04):
and told to be mindful and you know, set the mood,
light the candles, and in a way like I always
thought my obg yn was trying to be helpful and
almost you know, a therapist to me.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
And then like this lightning bulb.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Hit when I saw brain scan imaging of women that
were struggling with this, where I was like, holy shit,
it's biology and nobody has even addressed that for me.
So part of my you know, deepest passion, I think
was not only the science of it all, which I'm
you know, I love and data like show me the
data or you know GTFO, but but also like really
(08:43):
like really seeing myself in it, yeah, and my own
lived and actually having a heightened consciousness once I did that.
That's exactly what was happening to me.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Is that really the moment that led to you founding
sprout file cuticles.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean, like I can almost close my eyes, Danielle
and be like transported to the moment, like I was
struck by lightning.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I saw brain.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Scan images presented at a big sexual medicine conference, So
it's I call that like I was the pink and
the sea of blue pills, right. It was all sexual
medicine at the time was really for men, and there
were brain scan studies being done of women who struggled
with their libido versus women who were happy with it,
and they put.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
The slides up.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And what they did is they took those women, put
them both in an MRI, exposed them to erotica, and
their brains lit up totally differently. The women who were struggling,
their brains did not activate at all in response to
sexual cues, and it was like you could see the
light up versus the lack of Like basically for the
women who were struggling. They weren't shutting all the tabs
(09:50):
of their brain to ever, like you know, respond to sex.
And I think to me it was like hardware, hardware biology.
Oh my god, how insane is this that we've never
considered that women are also just biologically wired to desire sex.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I have a question about this. So I'm Gloria Steinhem's
fellow for the year, and I know it was in Oh,
oh my God for me too. But I was in
her living room a few weeks ago and we were
talking about sex, and she's so funny about it because
she's totally neutral. She has apps like it's like a
doctor talking about it. I think that's part of and
(10:29):
I'm just assuming or inferring, but part of her message
is like, it's natural, it's normal. I don't want to
give any power to it, one way or the other.
We were talking about I told them I was going
to be interviewing you, and we were talking about how men,
older men feel all of this pressure because we assume
societally or culturally that they are supposed to want to
(10:49):
have sex all the time, and we don't assign that
to women. Although a lot of the women I know
want to have sex just as much, if not more
than men. Yeah, And she said, I don't know why
we put so much pressure on it. Sex is really
about reproduction, so as we get older, like sure, we're
(11:10):
gonna want it less. And I never thought about that.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
What are you?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
What are you? And that was I shared it with
my friends. Some of them were sort of triggered by
that statement. I'm curious what you think.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I might be triggered Danielle. Here's what I think, and
I will tell you. I have a glorious stein a
moment where I was going to speak at an event
in New York City about like breaking barriers, and I
got on a plane in Raleigh, North Carolina, and she
was sitting.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Next to me, and I thought, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Universe, what what's happening? And we had this lovely conversation
that she would never remember, but you know, she kind
of she kind of gave me the pat on the
shoulder and said, we all do our part. I think
that here's here's what I'll tell you is really interesting
and I think this has been an underpinning to the
whole my whole journey and even the journey of the product.
The first FDA of proof product for women's desire, right
(12:01):
is I think there was a cultural moment in which
all things related to sex became objectification for women. I
would say that's the Steino moment, right like, I think
she really deeply felt that and was fighting against that.
I can't speak for her, but just based on all
the things I've read and consumed, and I think that
that has shifted through time, and I feel that actually
(12:24):
it's complete agency to have power over your own pleasure.
I don't believe you can go through the sexual revolution
and end it reproduction. I don't think we've actually made
change until we see it all the way through pleasure.
And so I hope you have sex the rest of
your life. And the reason I say that is because
(12:45):
the benefits to your physical and mental health are undeniable,
and it's the connection that we need as we want
as human means. If you don't want to have sex,
don't have sex, but by all means, you deserve pleasure
for the entirety of your life. Sex actually isn't just
a means for reproduction. I reject that.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I really like your response to that. I didn't have
the words for it, but I felt like well, I
hope I get to have sex the rest of my
life because to me, so much of it is about
like creativity and freedom, and if that's something that you want,
(13:24):
there should be a way to try and make that happen.
I'm curious about the conversations you had when you first
had this spark of an idea. Can you take me
back to that moment when you see the brain scans
light up? What was your next move? Who did you
talk to you What did those early conversations look like.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Okay, my very first move was I talked to all
the best researchers in the world, and I said, can
I talk to any of your patients? And I spent
a year with the best researchers in the world, really
like most of them having moved the entire category of
men's sexual health forward, and you know, they met with
partners to these some of these men had partners who
(14:02):
were similarly struggling. And what I couldn't believe is not
only that I was so really privileged that women shared
this private struggle with me, but also how similar their
stories were. It's I'm going back to that, like Microsoft, like,
what's the common thread, right, what's the common thread. These
were women of all age bands, of all walks of life,
(14:23):
of all different relationship status, and yet almost to a person,
they described it the same way. They're like, I don't
know what happened is like the switch one out?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
They're like, I once was there an age that happened?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
No, totally indiscriminate across the age bands, like I'm talking
everything from you know, a twenty two year old to
a sixty five year old to a seventy year old.
We got the best letter from a woman that was
seventy seven at the company. But the common thread was
I want to want but something changed and I can't.
(14:57):
I can't figure out what it is. And it it
turns out what it was was biology. And yet the
narrative and the culture fed to her like try harder.
I think there's so many parallels in this to the
conversation that I hope we're having around obesity, weight, you
(15:18):
know where, think about for so long we've shamed and
stigmatized people with this struggle, and then all of a
sudden and they've tried all the lifestyle modify. It's all
lifestyle modification is always good for all of us. Sleep more,
be less, stressed, don't drink, all those things we all know.
But regardless of what they did, it didn't shift. And
(15:40):
then it's as if the world in the last few
years went, oh my god, maybe it's genetics. Oh my god,
are you of course it's genetics. And so here are
these folks that have struggled for so long and now
there's a solution for them. But they waded through all
of that shame and stigma. And I feel like I
draw a lot of parallels to that here because these
(16:01):
women were so struggling and no one was listening. They
were telling them basically do better.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
When I think about what the rhetoric would be for
a man who was saying I'm struggling with this, there's
so much empathy. They feel sorry for their manhood. There's
just so much there. And we're telling women to do better.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yes, well, I mean like we value male leisure and
men similarly feel quite entitled to it because that's culturally embedded,
and women don't, which is culturally embedded. And you know,
that's really what we've got to examine. I mean, I say,
my fiance and I have this party trick. I don't
know that's really a party trick, but he thinks it is,
and at some point in the night, you know, the
(16:45):
conversation comes up, like what do you do?
Speaker 3 (16:47):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And when people ask me that, he looks at him
like and hear shakes his head like, oh god, buckle up.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Here she goes.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
And what's so interesting is if you have, you know,
like a male female couple stand across from you, and
I say, there's a moment that the woman has to
process like are we talking about this out loud? There's
an actual, like almost physical lean back away from me,
and then the guy leans in and he's like can
I take it? And all I'm seeing and that interaction
(17:17):
is the cultural conditioning that he understands that he's entitled
to pleasure and she's not sure we even are allowed
to discuss it.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
It's mirrored in pornography. I took a gender studies class
in college and had three weeks on pornography and we
actually had to watch certain videos and see that the
and I'm going to be sort of graphic, but yeah,
the end of most porn videos is a cumshot and
(17:46):
it's about male pleasure. It has nothing to do with
female pleasure. And that is the like, what is it
called in a song?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
The climax, the climaction always all my.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Words, I'm sorry, welcome to my life.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So if you can nerd out with me, how does
the drug work?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, to know how it works is just to understand
its origin. So just think for a second. I'm looking
at these brain scan studies. Right, here's this radical difference
in the ignition in essence of the sex center of
the brain. So, punchline, this is women's biggest sex organ.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Their brain.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
We are brain flow, not blood flow, truly, Like this
is where it ignites.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
And so ada is a mood drug.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It works on dopamine and serotonin, works on key like neurotransmitters.
And what you know is like, we're actually quite familiar
with products that work on neurotransmitters. We anti depressants, anti
anxiety meds, It've been on market for years. What are
their most common side effects? They harm your sex drive.
So basically the thesis was, well, if it's true that
(18:52):
we can work on those neurotransmitters and it causes depression
of sexual function, then it should also be true scientifically
that you could work there and increase it. And that's
that's Addie in a nutshell. I mean, in its most
basic form, it's a non hormonal pill that's working on
igniting that sex center of the brain. And that was
(19:14):
the switch that had gone out for all of those
women that I taught. Like, that's why I think they
describe it that way, because it's really like that, it
never percolates, it never responds to sexual cues.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, I'm sort of thinking like a light switch, like
it just doesn't turn on. Yep, this is going to
be an ignorant question. I try not to ask those
on this podcast, but similar to I think questions that
people had around viagra. Yeah, the fear was that you
took a viagra and you would be hard all day
or at inconvenient times.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
What is the equivalent to that with Addie? Is it
just when the sexual cue happens? And can you like
what if you're at work and you're like, wait, why
why did my boss say something? It's like that's I
didn't mean to get turned on by that.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
That's funny. I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
What's so funny is like the very first piece of
press I did. They came to the office, it was
nightline and they're like, but what happens if Channing Tatum
walks into the world.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
That's actually a way better way of asking the question what.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Is happening.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
The truth is no, it's much more subtle than that.
It's really like returning back to that normal you once had.
And I think that it's about really you do ignite
around partner. It's not hyper sexuality. Let me say it
a different way. In fact, honestly, in clinical trials you
must measure for that. You have to make sure that
(20:46):
on the scales you're not pushing people into hyper sexuality.
And I'll go back to that parallel even around like
you know, medications that work on anxiety and stuff or
or mood.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
You know, you're isn't.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Like euphoria, right, You're not walking around euphoric every day.
You're just back to that like place where you were
doing you know, your best, And that's I think that's
adding and in truth, like honestly, it's also an important
expectation because if people think they're gonna like take a
naddy and swing from the chandelier tonight.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I'm gonna disappoint you.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Not because of the drug if that happens, because it's
really just not how it works.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right, And you said it affects or it works with
the dopamine. Yeah, in your brain does it affect the dopamine?
So if you're taking it consistently, is your body still
developing the same amount of dopamine if you stop taking it?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, it's really sort of that. And I think it's
similar to like that dopamine is around excitation, like excitatory factors.
That's why in mood products like they're the happy you know,
we all know the dopamine, the dopamine phenomenon, and then
like the distinct I think in ADDIE's mechanism is it's
around inhibition. So typically, like why do these mood products
(22:07):
like SSRIs is a classic drug cause that it's caused
like sexual libido to drop. It's typically because it causes
some inhibition.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, that's interesting. What's a belief about sex that you
wish every woman could unlearn today?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
The greatest lie you were ever sold is that sex
for you is rooted solely in emotion and not biology.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That's so relieving.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
It is so relieving actually, like when you're really struggling
with this, and I will say maybe the best moment
for me in any room is when a woman comes
over and talks to me about this and.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
She has actual relief.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, And I think that it's so prototypical for women
who struggle with this condition type A in charge, succeeding
in every aspect of their life, and like the tabs
never close for her to really enjoy sex or think
about sex, and then she realizes like, oh, but it's
brain chemistry. Yeah, and then all of those things that
(23:05):
she's felt bad about or felt defensive about really slip away.
And it's that same grace we give to people who
struggle with medical issues when we say, no, no, it's
not you. It's your genetics or your biology betraying you.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
And there are.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Ways that you can do that. And there's a myriad
of ways, right, Like, it doesn't mean in lieu of
lifestyle modifications and some of that work, but to have
those tools makes all the difference.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Viagra was fast tracked for approval within six months, yeah,
and Addie took six years. The irony of the six
is just not lost on me. Can you break it
down for us? What did the system teach you about
the types of gaps and solutions for women?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
It speaks volumes at disparity doesn't it. That's all I
have to say to you is that the blue pill
was deemed to me such and an important unmet medical need.
It was so important for a man to get an
erection that it received fast track status through the FDA
in just six months. It took us six years. And
don't miss this point, we had four times as many
(24:12):
patients worth of data in our clinical trials. ADI is
the largest studied drug for sex at the time of approval,
male or female. So, like you, just I want women
to hear that we have more data on a product
for sex for women, And I think that's really, like,
it was so important to see that. Like I was
(24:34):
debating when you said, what's the one other thing you'd
want women to relearn about sex? It's really this pleasure principle,
isn't it, Because like exactly your experiment on porn is
that the construct is pleasure is ours to deliver, not
ours to receive. And I think that goes way beyond
the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
By the way, where do you put pleasure with desire?
Because I guess my next question for you after hearing
that was why do you think female desire still makes
people so uncomfortable?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
You know, I think that it's just is potentially the
most scary thing to all of the cultural norms. A
woman who has complete agency over everything, including her own satisfaction.
And I don't mean that to be like independent and
needs nobody, Like we all want human connection and and
you know, intimacy with a partner in all of that,
(25:25):
but like, is that really what is challenged here? This
like idea and when we when we have to move
away from a notion that women are ruled solely by
their emotion scary to us. It's so deeply embedded. I mean,
for your like health care, Like healthcare is embedded with
this bias. It's embedded in every way. It's not only
(25:48):
in the regulatory queue that would impose a radically double standard,
you know for products specifically for women, but it shows
up in you know, medical training, in the interaction with
medical professionals, in advertising standards, Like it's just really through
every I've lived, every, every single aspect of that in
(26:11):
this journey.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Well, you essentially fought the US government over this drug.
We're kind of giggling, but it's not funny. You really did.
As someone who's gone head to head with an agency
like the FDA, What did you.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Learn that.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
You have humans on the other side of the table
that have unbelievable unconscious bias and that in a way,
like those things that we believe sacred and just scientific standards. Look,
all science is just you got to prove it, right,
you do it with blinded trials, you do it with
plascebo controls. You have to meet the definitions of success
(26:53):
that the FDA themselves set for you. And yet right,
and yet we were interpreting data through a lens of opinion.
I mean the amount of discussion that happened when we
were first approved around how much more sex should she
need to have for her to get a drug?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
What did you ultimately have to prove to get the
drug approved?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So we proved three things. So in clinical trials we
had to prove not only did we increase women's desire
to have sex, but when they had sex, it was
more satisfying sex to them. And importantly, don't miss this,
that it reduced their distress. ADDIE's a mood drug. And
women who are struggling with this are really struggling with this,
(27:35):
Like we can laugh and I've been in sex for
so long, I tell really great jokes, right, because that's
a way to enter into sometimes these conversations that can
be tougher for people to have, and yet like they're
really struggling with it. So my takeaway from the FDA is,
FDA is filled with humans. Humans can impose their own bias,
(27:56):
and you've got to be relentless in really exposing that
bias and getting to the answer. Science had the answer
the whole time. It just took us a minute to
get out of our own way and listen to it.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
About two questions ago, when I asked you about fighting
the government or the FDA, you took a big breath
before you answered me. What do you remember about that time? Personally,
it signaled like it was just more difficult than you
were even letting on.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Oh it's are you joke?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
It's been so the trauma in a way to me,
Like I'm a very optimistic person. I believe if you're
faced with the obstacle, you got to find the work around,
you know, convicted to the core and yet right like
I have moments like I just had to bury it
(28:48):
and move through and bury it and move through, and
like I'm ten years out now and I can look
back on that. I can look back on just the
craziest letters that would come in and like I think
about my dad and how upset he was right, like
I'm going to get upset because like, oh my god.
And he would say to me, Cindy, can you please
just work on diabetes? Like his reason for that was
(29:11):
because when it's sex, everyone has an opinion, but you
just stay that, you know, you stay the course, and
it tests you to see how much do you really
want to see this through? Like how much does it matter?
And I think that's every that's still today, right, I
still get these crazy challenges and it's not just people's opinion.
It's just like how do you dismantle the systemic bias
(29:34):
that's holding women back? And like the hill I die on,
is no more medical gaslighting of women?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Are the tears from your dad? Your dad's fear, your
dad's nerves? Oh what was that?
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I think it's just like the you know, everybody who's
around me has had to live through this too, Like
I chose it, they didn't, and they had to watch
all the arrows being thrown. I mean, you know, it's funny.
I have two big brothers. Like how everybody My family
stood with me the day at the FDA. They all
came right and like they stood there and waited for
(30:09):
this decision, and yet you know they had been through
their own Termoal. My brother to this day, when I
call him, there is the most hideous photo like illustration
of me from one of the articles at the time,
and it's still like he saved it in his phones.
Every time I call him, it's what pops up because
he thinks it's funny.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
He likes to show me a good brother, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And but I'm like, I'm I'm the devil, Like I'm
painted like the devil in this thing.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
And it fueled me.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
But there's no question it came with some some cost.
Like I don't allow myself to feel that often, Daniel,
But I think when you ask, like it's it's underneath
the surface.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I could only imagine. I mean, it's sort of I
think like our version of the Salem witch Trials in
some ways. Yeah, do you ever get cynical? What keeps
you going?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
This to God?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
What keeps me going is that women to this day
still write me every day. They might send me a DM,
they might send me an email, and like I just
got one from a woman literally last night, and I
like said, this brings tears to my eyes that you
would take the time tell me this story. And like
she said, I've got hope back. And she's like, and
I realize that you've actually been doing this for a
(31:22):
long time. Like, I'm sure she has fought her own
personal battle, right, So like, thanks for continuing continuing the fight.
So that's what really keeps me going. I mean, I
think we all have our moments of cynicism. But again,
like to me, that's just the challenge and the test
of like, how much are you gonna you know, see
this all the way through? And the answer is to
(31:44):
the end until we change the conversation forever.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Earlier, you clarified a difference between women being understudied and
undervalued in twenty twenty five. How are women still so
undervalued from a healthcare perspective?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Women are undervalued for that very premise, that is that
women are are ruled by emotion or psychology and not biology.
So long as I can continue to believe that, I
can continue to dismiss you when you show up with
real medical symptoms, right, And unfortunately I think this is
the thing now we have to be hyper conscious of.
(32:24):
So because of that, like we are because we are undervalued,
we are understudied, and so what we've found as our
medicine has been unproven, often like questionable products that aren't
studied in our bodies, that have no merit to the
claims that they make, and so long as we continue
(32:45):
to allow that or be participants in purchasing those things,
no one ever gets an incentive to study us. So
we're part of the cycle. Like I hate to say that.
I mean, I say it to all my girlfriends who
like bring a baggie full of all sorts of things
that they take to every lunch table. I'm like, what
is that? Who studied it? Where is it monitored? And
I'm it's not to say that there aren't products that are,
(33:07):
you know, wonderful out there that are certainly alternatives to medication. However,
if we accept that the gummy is all we got,
we're never getting real science. And I think I'm seeing
that that shift even generate racially, where they're like, Nope,
don't sell me the thing with the big promise and
(33:28):
the little fine print that says you've never studied it
in my body. You know, there's no merit to those clams.
So I think that's where we break understudied when we
demand more evidence.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I've seen you talk about this topic, but I personally
was shocked to learn just a year or two ago
that tampons weren't tested with real female blood, and so
it was like, yeah, of course they're not working great
for all of us, are we surpromised? I know, And
that's something that affects fifty percent of the population every
single It's really wild.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
It's wild. It's wild.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Like there's so many layers, like we could have a
whole show just on this, like how does this begin?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
When did it begin? Right?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
How does it get perpetuated? And like and now great,
what can I do about it?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And I think what I can do about it is
that that demand of evidence.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I have to give you your flowers because it's rare
to see a person do so many things at such
a high level. You are not just a scientist an expert.
You're an expert science communicator and you're a bad ass
business woman. And I don't use that term. I don't
like like colloquialisms in that way, but you really embody it.
(34:44):
You reacquired sprout after selling it for a billion dollars
with a bee you could have done anything after that.
To me, that signal you had unfinished business. What should Yeah,
what shaped your DECI vision to go back?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
You know, when a woman sets out to do something,
she doesn't stop until it's done. And I did not
fight this hard when men had twenty six FDA pre
products for women to finally have won for the company
who purchased it from me to put it on the shelf,
not on my watch, no chance.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
That was not what we set out to do.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
And I really tell you, like, this has never been
about a product at all. This has been about something
so much bigger, bigger than me, and about changing a conversation.
And to me, like it was devastating when we finally
won and then women couldn't get it, what all those
(35:45):
women that had talked to me and everything else. And
so I think it was just about making right by
the mission.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Did anyone try to talk you out of it?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I think that the you know,
the sigh of relief after like being out of the
the line of fire, right like just the arrows, Like
I always say that, I know, like you know, what's
the expression, like the pioneers have arrows in their back.
I'm always looking around like I feel I think I
still have some marks there and like you get beyond that,
(36:13):
and everybody would have assumed. I think that success for
me was defined as that big exit, like it is
an entrepreneurial dream come true. Right, I've created a solution
to a big need and that's why. And yet that's
not my definition of success, and so it wasn't done.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
What is your definition of success now, impact? Yeah, what's
something in business that you have done like a woman
and it worked better than the boys? Oh?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
I love it? Well.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
I have to storytell this to to tell you. So
I was in a pitch meeting and I had some
of my like now you know VC friends, the guys
in the blue and gray suits, exactly as you would imagine,
who absolutely would have never written me a check at
the beginning, but now they think, maybe.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Cindy's onto something. I'm going to come sit in this room.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And there was a woman who was pitching a technology
to basically help with concussions, and in the middle of
her presentation, she like got very choked up, just like
I did with you, not that long ago, right, she
got choked up and she moved through it. But she
had like this box of all her prototypes and it
was like it was like in her grandmother's old Cuban
(37:26):
cigar box. I loved it. We left the room, and
it's funny. The guy sat with me and they were like,
I can't believe you didn't say something to her when
she broke down, And I said, like what, And they're like,
you know, there's no crying in business, like the kind
of there's no Cindy, you're her mentor like you go
tell her that. I said, you guys are such idiots.
The moment that she started to cry was the moment
(37:47):
I knew I was investing. That was the moment like
I knew how much it mattered to her that minute,
like it I'm gonna cry, Like I feel that of
founders right, like you're so emotionally invested, Like she's not
going to stop until it's done. Like it's the same thing.
And like they they read it as a sign of weakness.
(38:08):
I read it completely differently in that room, completely different.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I'm so grateful you shared that story. I'm a crier?
Are you a crier?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
A total crier.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yes, such a crier, and I have to see Hi, everybody.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Well, you're actually a very pretty crier. I not so much.
I more have the ugly Kim Kardashian crying face. But
I've cried at work a few times, and I'm always
sort of questioning whether that's okay or not, and I'm
not sure, and so I I think sometimes I cry
out of frustration, sometimes out of passion, And so thank
you for sharing that. Yeah, from your perspective of making
(38:49):
a deal, how do you know you're being taken? Seriously,
how do you know when you have the upper hand.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I think there's a moment when the room goes silent,
and you know, like I think that's the moment where
they're just quietly listening.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
And I think if you don't have that moment, you
go silent until they do.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
I presented at like the biggest healthcare conference. It was
like I had won Willy wonkas ticket. Like I was
like this tiny little you know, this tiny little private
company trying to get this big ambition of this product approved.
Forget that I already had a track record having built
and sold a company, but like this seemed so far afield.
Nobody wanted to touch it. And I remember being invited
(39:36):
and you get like you got like six minutes on
the clock, eight minutes on the clock, I can't remember,
and like your big counter is right in front of you.
And I got up to talk about sex and it
was a room full of bankers. The giggle that went
across the crowd, you cannot believe it like started and
it like went through the whole audience like the wave.
And I remember like looking up because they were so loud,
(40:00):
and I'm watching my like minutes disappear, and I fast
forward in my slide as fast as I could do
the brain scans, and I just went silent and pointed
until the whole room went silent, and I was like,
I'm just here to talk about the biology of sex.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Can I continue?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
And like they didn't make another peep the rest of
them meeting.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
They like you went full on sixth grade teacher on them.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
They were like, yes, but it made them conscious of
how ridiculous they were. And I think you do know,
like in a moment where you've got the room like
they are listening to you, you hear it, like you
hear the lack of like all the chitter chatter, and
I would just say, like, I think it's one of
my my negotiation tricks for all ladies. If you're not
being taken seriously, just go quiet for a minute.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Which can be a little uncomfortable, so you'll have to
get used to that totally.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Say I told you that was the value of my
childhood being comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Great call to bring a full circle. You had an
incubator called the Pink Ceiling and it gives candid feedback
to women entrepreneurs to pitch you, and you have this quote.
I love you said. What I fear is that if
we do too much cheerleading and not enough straight talk,
we're going to set up a lot of young women
for failure. They were brave enough to start a business
(41:18):
from scratch, and we congratulate them for it without telling
them candidly that their business plan isn't scalable or sustainable. Okay,
you said you're an optimist, and so I wouldn't be
curious about everyone's answer, But I'm curious about your answer
to this, because how are you balancing being an idealist
(41:39):
who can spot a unicorn disruptor company and a realist
who knows when something's not going to work.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
I speak truth always because I think that's the greatest
sign of respect that we can give to each other.
But I will always lean toward optimism, and because I
I think every woman deserves to know that somebody is
betting on her. She's not given a lot of that,
(42:06):
And so like if I had to trade one over another,
I'll lean toward optimism. But I do think in that quote,
and I appreciate you picking that one out, I think
candor is compassion. I think saying it straight to each
other is the most respectful thing we can do. And
the last thing I want when I think of you know,
the I'm so lucky, like people with big dreams come
(42:29):
and share them with me, and I might get to
be a participant, you know in that Like if I
don't say the truth to them, they do have all
the chops to go do it. It's just not this thing,
And that's what I want to make sure that I reinforce.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
It's not them. Just as the.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Idea people with big dreams come and share them with
me is such a beautiful thing to say. Yeah, what
do you think the best way to give negative feedback is?
Do you do that?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Compliment sandwich n But no, I would much rather go
straight in like I'm I'm always with somebody.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Hopefully this isn't off putting to people.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
But I'm very like blunt, and you know, I want
to say it with this may be hard to hear,
but I need to tell you this and then we
work through it on the other side of that, right, Like,
but I think you have to just set the stage
and I'm going to say it.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
I wonder what my team would say.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
I don't know if I even give them the preamble
this might be hard to hear.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I just say it, Well, they know you at this point.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, and we talk about that, like I actually talk
about that honestly, even in interviews, Like to be here
is to be constructively irreverent, like that's part of our
DNA and so you got to be able to listen
to the thing and process it and in the end,
like we will make a decision together, but we will
lock arms and go conquer the world, like, but we're
(43:49):
going to make that decision together in here, and we're
going to tell each other the truth.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
For someone listening who does have an idea, and I
will shout out the people that listen to this podcast
because because they DM me and email me with such
awesome ideas and they have they're really smart people. I
always say they're interested and interesting. So I do think
there will be a lot of people curious to hear
your answer. For someone listening who does have an idea,
(44:16):
give us your take on how to build a really
amazing pitch that cuts through the noise.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I will tell you, I think this is lost on
a great pitch. It's really not about telling me what
you're trying to do. It's convincing me why you're the
one to do it. That's all I'm listening for. Great
ideas don't execute themselves. People execute great ideas. And that's
(44:44):
the only thing I'm really figuring out in that interaction
with you.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Wow, so you are fully of the mindset you're investing
in the entrepreneur over those absolutely? Yeah. What do you
know about power now that you and understand in your twenties?
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I think, look power in its most conventional definition. I
think when we're in our twenties is you know that
next rung of the ladder. It might be status, it
might be money, it might be you know, celebrity for
some people, and I'm very clear that power is impact
(45:22):
and the deep contentment that comes from that, Like, actually,
you know, there's a professional power, and professional power to
me is really impact and the personal power is being
content in who you are, so like doing those things
that truly feed you and who you want to be
in this world. Nothing will make you happier than that.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
I've been listening to a lot of podcasts lately with
people who I think have I've coined this term post
economic like they've made a ton of money and are
sharing a lot of messages about self work, and I
think sometimes it's hard to ingest because my first instinct
is like, yeah, now you have the time to do
(46:06):
all that the caveat And what I know deep down
is that my career has only risen to the height
of my personal growth, and so I really deeply understand
the importance of what you're saying. My question is, what
did you do personally to grow and to support your
(46:30):
personal growth while you've been on this journey.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I'm insanely curious, Like, I just think that's it, Like,
as you describe your listeners, that's why I love you
so much too, Like I love the like I'm endlessly fascinated.
And so every day I sit down, whether I'm on
like an airplane or you know, in my office, I
recognize that I have mentors actually sitting to my left
(46:54):
and my right. Everyone can teach you something, and I
think that is the personal growth. Like I cannot even
imagine like waking up tomorrow and be like I did it,
I know it all. Like how boring would that day
actually be? Every day I'm learning. When I built my
first company, we had this like little in office procedure
that you did, and it was new. So we filmed
(47:16):
like all these experts in the world doing this procedure.
And I can remember like the first medical conference we
got up to like train the masses, and we showed
all these different experts and I remember looking at the
audience and it's an audience of surgeons. Okay, so I'm
going to tell you ninety nine percent of the audience
had their arms crossed in front of them and they
(47:37):
were leaning back in their chair like modestly, like shaking
their head like no, that's not how.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
You do it, no, no, no, wow.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
And one percent of the room was like leaning forward
like ooh, I never thought of that. That's so interesting. Right,
because not everybody does everything the same way. Who was
the one percent, the one percent in the world, who
were these the experts that everybody aspired to be. They
were still learning and the rest of the room was like,
that's not how you do it. And I think that
(48:06):
was a wonderful lesson for me. And I think, you
know how I try to live every day to continue
to personally grow and again like find that contentment even
in knowing you don't know everything, Like that's a that's
good too. There's that means there's so much more of
the journey left ahead.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yes, I have this quote on my card game that
says charmed are the curious, for they shall have adventure.
And I think curiosity is at the center of all
the great stuff in life, like of creativity, of relationship.
And it sounds so dorky to.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Talk about, No, it's so spot on, Danielle.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
It's that's it.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
The most successful people like I feel like I've been
so lucky to come across like people who've done big things.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Like you know, famous things, all of that, and like, if.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
There's one thing they are insatiably curious, this is their magnificence,
is like their curiosity, And so I love that I'm
writing that down right now.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Read no, No, I'll send it to U. I have
to send you the card game anyways.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
I need to put it on my wall behind me
next time we got on us.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
You actually just unlocked something for me, though, because I
saw this great clip of Trevor Noah interviewing Oprah and
he said, you've interviewed so many successful people, what do
they all have in common? And she thought for a
second and said, they all know where they're going. And
it's a powerful statement, but I did not resonate with it.
(49:43):
And listen, I'm not Oprah, but I've interviewed a bunch
of people who don't necessarily know where they're going immediately
they kind of feel the next right step. And so
for you to say the common threat is curiosity, that
is what I have fund That is the truth.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yeah, I would not say I know exactly where I'm going,
no way, Like I actually don't even want to.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I don't. I want to like.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Have the the adventure ahead of learning something new that
will inform where I go and make the next step,
like being open always to that, like what the world
is showing you or teaching you is so important to me.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
I agree. I really wish I could talk to you
for a whole nother hour. But I have some rapid
fire questions for you.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Okay, let's go.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
What is a hill you're willing to die on?
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Oh, I'm dying on the hill that women will no
longer experience medical gaslighting?
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Nope?
Speaker 1 (50:44):
What is a question you'd like to be asked? Something
that you like to talk about but nobody ever brings up.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
No one ever asked me about my farm animals?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
But I have two pigs, six chickens, and two dogs
that live at my house and I like to call
it pink Acres. And I understand why nobody wants to
talk about my pigs, but I would talk about them mendlessly.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
That is so cute. Are you a vegetarian by any chance?
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (51:08):
God, don't tell them.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Don't Okay, I won't, and we could pretend I didn't
ask that question. What is the best piece of advice
someone's given you that you've actually applied to your own
life and had success with.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
You will love it more if you earn it.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Cindy, you gave me chills when you said it. What
is a book that changed your life, something you think
everybody should read.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Oh my gosh, I'm such a fan of Pat Lencioni
and he wrote a book called The Five Temptations of
a CEO. I'm kicking at old school right now. Okay,
that hasn't hurt his feelings. But he actually talked about hiring,
which I think is so crucial.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Success is not a solo sport, so who you find
to surround you is so crucial to your journey. And
he said there are three characteristics they need to be hungry, humble,
and smart. And I think that has really stayed with
me as I built organizations.
Speaker 3 (52:07):
So love the book.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Such a great read, Five Temptations of the CEO.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Thank you for sharing that. What's something every woman should
try once?
Speaker 2 (52:17):
Every woman should have sex every day for thirty days
and see how much it improves her the quality of
her mental, physical health and connection.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
Wait, this is so fun. I have to tell you.
Nobody's given me that answer, yet.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
There you go. That is amazing. Let's try.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
My last question is from my card game.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Okay, because we're virtual, you just have to tell me
when you feel like I should stop. Okay, now, if
you could relive one night from the past without changing anything.
What night would it be.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Oh, I would relive the night before we got the
FDA news because we threw a victory party and we
didn't know whether or not we were getting approved. And
I will tell you, the chairman of my board thought
I had absolutely lost my mind because I threw a
(53:15):
victory party for the team, and I said, look, whatever
happens tomorrow, we have done everything we could do inside
of our own power, and so we really do enter
the arena as champions.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Wow. Was your family there? Yes, Oh, you're getting emotional.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
It's such such a good every like and so many
people I love like took the time to like fly,
you know, they like people who'd been part of my
teams in the past that weren't even part of my
team that day, like flew in to be with me
in the room that day.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Like that was incredible. I'm still emotion about it.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
Well, you're such an inspiring leader like you. You lead
with honesty and compassion. I get why former employees would
fly in seaking with my executive coach this morning about
beliefs versus expectations. Yeah, and I think that I have
been trying to believe things, and maybe some manifestations haven't
(54:12):
come because it's actually better to expect. I think she said,
things happen when you expect, and it's like you expected
a victory.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Yeah I did. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yeah, you're one of the most remarkable people I've ever
spoken to.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
Oh, Danielle, thank you well.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
I've been wanting to do this with you for so long.
I'm so glad we did it.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Thank you for that. Okay, you know what time it is.
Today's a good day. To have a good day. I'll
see you next week.
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