148: Regenpreneur Story - The Soil & The Ledger with MAD Capital - Seeds of Tao: Impact entrepreneurs seeding regenerative paths beyond sustainability

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome. My name is Emily Prieto and I'm the co-founder of Seeds of Dow alongside
my husband, Joshua Prieto. If you're new to the podcast, this is a podcast for impact
entrepreneurs creating regenerative enterprises. We often get asked what exactly a regenerative
enterprise or impact entrepreneur is. So if you're wondering, a regenerative enterprise

(00:20):
builds triple bottom line profits through the practice of ethics and principles that
lead to a more inclusive, fair and balanced economy. Impact entrepreneurs or regenpreneurs
as we like to call them are those willing and able to take on the financial and personal
risks of starting and building regenerative enterprises. You'll get to know exactly what

(00:40):
all that means as you join us for this and future episodes, but know that we welcome everyone
to join us as we work to build regenerative economies together. That's exactly why we're doing what
we do at Seeds of Dow. Our mission is to help establish regenerative economies in every
bioregion by serving individual regenpreneurs like yourself. In this podcast, you'll hear

(01:01):
the startup stories in all their glory from impact entrepreneurs all over the globe. You'll learn and
grow the skills of building a regenerative enterprise from your peers, mentors, and leaders. Finally,
we'll get to know each other as you engage in the podcast and join the wonderful regenerative
business economies ecosystem, aka RegenB, an open community where peers, colleagues, funders,

(01:23):
allies, allies, and supporters of Regenpreneurs come together to build the regenerative economies
of the future. Join us every month for a wonderful episode as we collectively move beyond sustainability
and into our regenerative future. It all starts now.

(01:52):
Welcome back to the Seeds of Dow podcast. Man, it has been a while. I think the last post,
last episode was beginning of the year in February. A lot has happened since we last posted an episode
to the Seeds of Dow podcast. I have been trying to get back to the podcast for a little while,

(02:12):
but now I have a co-host with me. And Noam Rifkind is going to be my co-host for the next foreseeable
future as we really start to dive into all of the wonderful things happening in the ecosystem of
regenerative business. And really playing on that, the regenerative business economics,

(02:33):
the regenerative business economics ecosystem is really what we're building on the RegenB.
Noam has been working with me on that. Noam, if you can, just give us a little bit of an intro to
you because this is like the first time people are hearing you on the podcast and a little bit of
why you're involved in the RegenB work and now Seeds of Dow with the podcast. And then let's give us

(03:01):
a little bit of a preamble for our conversation today that I had a really long time ago. So it's
like a time capsule at this point, but you got to listen to it. And I would love to get your thoughts
on Mad Capital and what they're doing. So let's start it off. Noam.
Pleasure to be here. I think between this podcast being a phoenix rising back to life and my journey

(03:27):
into kind of being your co-host, pretty good proof that all regenerative transitions can take a little
bit of time and patience and may not necessarily be straight lines. But I'm really excited to be
joining you and to be talking about this going forward. It's a really, really wonderful opportunity.

(03:47):
And, you know, I've been getting introduced into the, you know, I'll say the regenerative world
over the last nine months or so, working closely with you, Josh, working with a lot of the great
people at like Evolute 6 and, you know, around the ecosystem. And, you know, every day includes a

(04:08):
conversation where I learned something new. And every day, you know, includes a conversation where
I get to share my perspective coming from, you know, archaeology and then digital marketing that
will warn career path and moving into, you know, this idea of regenerative entrepreneurship and

(04:29):
wanting to both achieve positive ends for the world, for nature, for ecosystem, but also not,
you know, intentionally taking a vow of poverty and realizing that regenerating financial capital
allows you to have a continued and larger impact. And if a regenerative business can support itself,

(04:53):
it's that much less strain it needs to put on the rest of the ecosystem in order to support itself.
And that means it can have that much stronger of a impact going forward. So that's, that's my
perspective on things. And, you know, I'm really looking forward to the conversations we're going
to get to have on this podcast, the people we're going to get to talk to.

(05:13):
Awesome. Yeah. So this is kind of a fun episode to kind of restart our journey on. I really like the
folks at Mad Capital, Brandon, and you got to remind me who else, Phil, Brandon and Phil. Goodness.
It's been almost a year and a half since we had this original conversation with them. And I really

(05:39):
enjoyed just how involved they are in the movements, and how much they live it, right? They really have
that ethos. And, and, and so just from a perspective of like, these are really two great guys. I wanted
to have a conversation with them, but also the work that they're doing is really intriguing. Like

(06:02):
they're, they're really getting some fun stuff done within Mad Capital. So if you can, since you just
listen to, to, to it, uh, give us, give us your thoughts, no, what, what's happening, um, give us
some context and what, what the audience should expect and what's, what, what should we actually
do on the, on the coattails of this? Uh, cause I know it's a time capsule. What, what are the

(06:26):
conversations do we need to have with Mad Capital? Yeah, that's a great lead in. Um, so my first
thought was the bar is higher than I anticipated to join this podcast. Cause Josh, you're
you're a pretty effective interviewer and that was a really, uh, well-paced conversation.
And I think you, uh, did an excellent job of kind of directing their thoughts to the topics

(06:51):
that were going to resonate with the audience that we have, you know, kind of most, most
broadly, most strongly. Right. Um, you know, it's interesting while I was listening to it, I
was just kind of looking around at their recent social media activity, um, both individually in
it and as Mad Capital. Right. And it's been what, about 16 months since you recorded this,

(07:17):
right? A little over a year. Um, and you know, as I was listening to it, I'm thinking to myself,
you know, they're not necessarily using the same vocabulary that some of the other people we might
have talked to would be using around regenerative financing or regenerative capital, but their
perspectives and the metrics that they're paying attention to are in lockstep alignment with the

(07:45):
same regenerative principles that we've talked about, you know, on however many zoom calls we've
had since, since we first met. Right. And you know, it's, it's a little bit of an assumption,
obviously like we're not in their ballroom or anything like that, but it's easy to, or clear
at least to look at their, um, you know, activities and acquisitions, expansions, focuses since that

(08:14):
conversation and see how they are applying regenerative financing principles. Right. But you know,
you have a really, uh, concise exchange with them, uh, during the conversation where they talk about
their kind of, you know, three time horizons that they're evaluating on. I think you refer to it as
like the orbit shot, the moon shot and the star shot. Um, and you know, it's, it's a really effective

(08:43):
reminder that progress isn't linear and success. You can define your parameters beforehand, but that
locks you into one version of success, right? If you understand as you know, Phil and Brandon really
clearly seem to have internalized, right. That you're looking to influence an ecosystem,

(09:08):
a matrix of interconnected factors, levers, processes, and you can kind of say the overall
impact is reflected in the health of X, Y, or Z. It gets a lot easier to open up all these
additional opportunities for yourself, for you to deploy the financial capital that you're able to
raise, centralize, grow, regenerate. Right. So I think, uh, just as we're, you know, kind of at the

(09:34):
beginning of this process of understanding the current state of the RegenB community and what
we're trying to build towards and the types of stakeholders and their concerns that are kind of
arrayed around that, I think this is a incredibly, you know, kind of pertinent conversation for us to
listen back into. And, uh, I'll, I'll kind of leave my preamble there. Yeah. So let's, let's dive into it.

(10:04):
Welcome to the season now podcast. I have some two really great guests today that we get to talk
about a side of, of, uh, regeneration that's maybe doesn't get spoken of enough. Um, and so
we're going to dive into their, their story, but I have, uh, Phillip, uh, Taylor and Brandon Welch

(10:24):
of mad capital on the podcast today. How are you two doing today?
Okay. We are good. Yeah. Excited to be here. Thanks for the invite and happy to share our
story. Cool. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. We're excited. Yeah. So the way we like to get these
podcasts rolling is to get to know you just more personally. And, uh, I think the best way to do

(10:45):
that is just to kind of get a little day in the life of you guys. Uh, so, uh, Brandon, maybe you
start or Phillip, whoever wants to start, what got you up this morning and, uh, just tell us a bit
about your day and how it's going. Yeah. Uh, still relatively early here in mountain time
in Boulder, Colorado. So it's eight o'clock in the morning. Uh, so I've been up for a couple of

(11:09):
hours, uh, woke up, you know, just, I I'm in my mornings. I'm fairly just regimented and kind of
just disciplined about how I go about the day. So like I'm up, alarm goes off at six, I'm out of the
bed, you know, six, uh, yeah, six and seven seconds. And then, um, you know, usually I'll

(11:30):
stretch for college 15, 20 minutes, just kind of wake the body up, get moving, maybe do a little
breath work. Um, and then I hopped in the shower, got, got ready to hop into the office and get on
this podcast, got to the office a little early, uh, chatted with Phil for a little while. We caught
up, just kind of sensed where we were both at, you know, energy wise, how we were feeling for the

(11:52):
day. We have a, uh, Europe, uh, fundraising trip coming up next week. So we're just, you know,
really making sure that we have all of our, our ducks in a row and yeah, I'm, uh, I'm feeling good.
Um, you know, other mornings could wake up and, you know, hit the gym, go on a trail run. Um,
usually like to do some sort of just physical activity to kind of get my, get my body moving,

(12:16):
and get my mind working. Um, so most days start with some sort of a nature based or outdoor,
just physical endeavor. Yeah. That's how I'm feeling. Yeah. I'm feeling great. I, uh, use my
morning similarly. Uh, I have a fairly robust meditation practice that takes me about 30 minutes.

(12:36):
And so, um, I've been training in that for a while now. And that's sort of my core anchor point in the
morning. Um, I get up, I have four kids and a lovely wife. And so I, I rise before the whole
sort of family gets smooth. Um, and today I left before anyone was up. Um, I, I, yeah, I like

(12:57):
occasionally, I mean, I used to get into the office early all the time, but now that I'm more in dad
mode, um, I typically get in around like eight 30 and yeah, it was beautiful. I live up in the
mountains, but Boulder. And so I have this beautiful Canyon drive to get to wiggle down the Canyon
alongside this beautiful Creek. I like to plunge in and, um, yeah, it's just a beautiful way to wake

(13:19):
up. So that's kind of my daily routine, uh, meditation and peak drive and drop the kids off
at school and get in the saddle and rock and roll. Right on, right on. I'm familiar with the,
the area at least. Cause I'm, I'm from Salt Lake city, Utah. And so I love that kind of mountain
life. Right. I, I, I kind of miss it a little bit being here in Panama, but yeah. Uh, are you guys

(13:43):
skiers or, or climbers or, or what, what's, uh, do you have any particular outdoor activities that you
guys like to do? Definitely. Yeah. Uh, I like to get into the back country. So I did a little skin
with a buddy on Sunday, went up to Caribou just outside of, uh, Nederland and, you know, I was

(14:04):
outside for three or four hours, just doing some laps on, on kind of the local, the local incline
there. Um, got some awesome powder in the summer, mountain biking, trail running, uh, you know,
hiking. I, I just enjoy all sorts of outdoor recreation. I was into rock climbing at one point.

(14:25):
That's faded a little bit. The time intensity to maintain a level of excellence is really high.
Like you'd have to be very dedicated, um, in order to maintain peak performance there. Whereas other
things, you know, mountain biking, I can just hop on once or twice a week. I don't need to be
focusing 20 hours a week on, you know, strengthening my fingers and such. So I've,

(14:47):
I do that every once in a while, but that's kind of faded. Yeah. I love a lot of the same things.
The thing that I've been most drawn to, I call it kind of like adventure days. And then I
basically pack a backpack with sort of no trail or chart, you know, known and put watercolors and
a journal and binoculars and some plant identification guides. And I just kind of cut loose with my kids

(15:13):
up hills and down mountains and sort of get lost exploring nature. And, you know, before I was kind
of turned conscious capitalist, I was an ecologist for 15 years, um, studying rainforests. And so I
have this, we'll get into it, but I have this like very deep curiosity itch around how ecosystems

(15:34):
are structured and how they function and where that beauty, you know, sort of comes into being.
And so, um, it ties deeply into my like sense of place. And so there's a, this sort of like
undying love for adventure and ecological curiosity. And so that's my go-to is the sort of adventure

(15:54):
days. That's my, that's my thing. That sounds like a dad, dad way of saying it to adventure days.
I'm just picking up on that a little bit.
Yeah. I mean, I wake my kids up at like six in the morning. I usually have like the burritos warm
and the coffee and the hot chocolate, and then we hop in the truck and then we go. And, uh,
they usually bring the pillows and sleep in the truck and I have to wake them up at the trailhead

(16:18):
or whatever. And, you know, they smile kind of, and, you know, we get going. Yeah. It's a super fun.
I mean, it's one of those things where like when you wake up in the morning and, and you have that
alpine start, like you never regret it. You know, it's like, you never regret an early morning wake,
even though it can be really hard when you get back to the house and it's like only one in the

(16:42):
afternoon, you're like, Whoa, I've like lived an entire day. Um, I like sort of deep satisfaction
that comes with that commitment and that devotion. Um, so yeah, I like to, I like to kind of
relish in that. Yeah, no, I, I agree with you on that. We do a lot of hiking and stuff. We, we did
a lot of skiing as a family, but we also did a lot of winter and, and summer hikes in the mountains

(17:07):
and in Salt Lake, uh, area. Uh, I have four kids myself, so I, I kind of get those adventure days,
uh, going. My kids don't always want to go up with me, you know, and they grunt, but when they,
when we get back, it's always like, Oh man, that was awesome. Or wow. Look at what we saw
today where I found all of these things, they come back with like 50 pine cones and all sorts

(17:30):
of different, you know, rocks and whatnot. Our whole, our whole house is full of branches and
rocks and seashells. Um, I literally have like a ton of nature collections in my garage. It dominates
the sort of storage capacity of the back garage is just collections of bones and rocks and stuff.

(17:52):
It's, uh, you know, it brings up a lot of like, what is responsible foraging? You know,
there's like all kinds of philosophical debates that happen. And yeah, anyway, yeah, it's, uh,
one of my richest parts of life for sure. Yeah. Well, I think it's about connection with nature
too. And when you're young, I think there's some amount of allowing for a little bit of disruption,
you know, to be able to have that connection. Um, that's my, that's my two cents on that,

(18:16):
but, uh, it's good. It's good to just get to know you a little bit, uh, before we dive into
your story. So yeah, Brandon, tell me more about what gets you excited to do the work that you do
at mad mad capital. Yeah, for sure. Um, what gets me excited is, is really the, the tangible real
world difference that we're helping our farmers create. You know, I think society now is very focused

(18:41):
on, on the digital, on, you know, on social media, on kind of hyper growth on VC and you have this
mentality of always trying to get more for less and farming and really just agriculture as a whole
is rooted in a much longer, uh, longer relationship with the work. And you know, the work has real

(19:02):
world physical outcomes and being able to show up on a farm that I haven't been to for three or four
years and just see that we helped provide right fit capital to help that farmer transition their
land. And now the farmer's happier, the land is healthier. You know, the soil is, is richer is,
is invigorating for me. It's exciting. It's, it's empowering to see that, you know, we're helping

(19:27):
connect these, these two worlds that are fairly distant right now being, you know, wall street
and institutional capital with, you know, stewards who have a multi-generational mindset.
Um, you know, we actively live in that tension and being able to successfully bridge those two
worlds and then help a farmer transition land organic is, is exciting. And that, that gives me

(19:50):
passion that gets me going. And, you know, when it, when times get tough, when we're in kind of the
chaos and the struggle of building a company and an entrepreneurship, um, it's really being able to
reflect and think about those moments that, you know, reground me and, you know, get me excited
again, uh, about the work, but that's what drives a lot of my passion. Right on. And, and, and feel

(20:14):
for you, what, what, what excites you about your work with Meta Capital? Oh man, there's so many
things. Um, I'll give you a couple of like kind of little nuggets. One is like the philosophical
and, uh, psycho-emotional challenge of like re-imagining money and capital. Um, you know,

(20:34):
there's like a very robust, like inner landscape within the team around like, what is economy?
What are, how, what is money for and how should money flow? And so, you know, a lot of what
we're doing in my mind is like trying to, um, connect money and its utility to like the natural

(20:55):
economic and ecological flows of ecosystems. Um, like what is sort of the natural interest
rate of an ecosystem? How much money can things bear? Or like, there's all sorts of, um, there's
all sorts of interesting, um, uh, like tissue in that conversation. So like, there's like a
super rich part of our work that's sort of philosophical and curious. And I would say it's

(21:19):
not polemical or dogmatic. It's, it's, um, sort of asking the questions and trying to
practice these things in real time. And so that's a really fun intellectual and emotional
spiritual exercise that brings me a lot of life. Um, and then on the other end of the
spectrum, sort of similar to what Brandon was saying is like, there's a very practical

(21:41):
outcome, you know, and I think like ideas without action are dead. And so, you know, how do we
move that philosophy into practice? And I love this idea of like living the questions. And
and so I think living the questions is like working with your hands. It's putting things
to work. Um, and so when we lend to farmers, um, it's real stuff. I mean, these, these are

(22:03):
livelihoods, it's family, it's land transformation, it's real transition to organic and regenerative
ag, um, systems, economies, ecosystems are changing because of it. And to like,
feel and witness that and be a partner in that is like, just, it's an honor. Yeah. It fills

(22:23):
me with gratitude, excitement. Um, it's full of challenge. And so the sort of like philosophical
to the practical, you know, and all of the stuff in between, you know, really brings me
a lot of joy. Um, I would say the last thing is, is, I mean, it's just really cool to, to
watch, uh, the people on the team here just rise to the occasion, uh, building the systems,

(22:46):
the practices, the, the servicing, the, the way we underwrite, the way we understand risk,
the way that we take risk. Um, you know, like our, our meetings that sort of really get into
the weeds and the guts of, um, you know, what is private credit, you know, just fills our days,
you know, with, with a lot of energy and verve. And, and so that's really fun to witness a team

(23:12):
of people coming together to really reform that in a positive way toward regeneration.
That's, that's so cool. The, the, the combination of, of your guys is, uh, the two of you answering,
I think, um, branding, it felt like you're, you're kind of, you're seeing, you're, you're enjoying
seeing the, the progress of, of the farms and, and things moving forward and, and, um, that progress

(23:36):
inspires you and, and then, uh, fill the, the challenge, uh, the challenges and like working
through those challenges, like, uh, and seeing, seeing that happen, I think, uh, is something
that's inspiring you. And, and what I kind of took away from, from, uh, both of your answers is
there's like this always being able to see what's, what's, what's coming and what's being

(23:57):
created, but there's this, uh, the, the, the enjoyment and actually like solving that challenge
right now, uh, is also something that, that really, uh, enlivens you guys. Um, yeah. So
yeah, thanks for sharing. Uh, what, what, what gets you excited? Tell us more about mad capital
and the work, the, the, the actual tangible work that you guys are, are doing, uh, now that

(24:22):
we've kind of had an understanding that's, that's working with how, what gets you excited about
it?
For sure. Yeah. So mad capital, uh, we're on a mission to create a regenerative
organic revolution in agriculture. So what that means is we are trying to use capital
as a tool to help empower farmers on their regenerative journey. And as they try to transition

(24:44):
land from conventional chemical based synthetic kind of much more industrial agriculture to
regenerative organic agriculture, which is positive from a human health standpoint.
Um, you know, this is, these farmers are growing chemical free food in a way that's putting
carbon in the ground. It's improving biodiversity. There are more, you know, birds and bees and life

(25:07):
on the farm. Uh, and it's mitigating all of the, the eutrophication and water issues that, uh,
these more industrial farms are, are creating. Um, so our, you know, our mission is really to
connect the two worlds of, of capital and agri and farmers and stewards of the land in order to help

(25:28):
them have right fit, properly structured debt to facilitate that transition. So we are a, we're a
lender, uh, we're a private credit shop where we provide long-term fixed rate and flexible financing
for farmers to make that transition. So farmers have all sorts of, uh, challenges or hurdles that

(25:49):
they have to overcome in their transition. Um, it's occasionally capital, not occasionally access
to markets. It can also be access to the right information and, you know, having the place-based
wisdom to make a, uh, a good successful transition. But when it is capital, um, we are working on
cultivating the right capital stacks that are really designed for organic transition. So these

(26:13):
are loans that are on interest only terms have deferred terms, or, you know, we sculpt the payment
schedule. So what I mean by that is we'll alter the payment schedule of the loan to best fit the
cashflow of the farm. Um, because during the transition to regenerative organic, the cashflow of
the farm suffers, it usually is reduced roughly 20 to 30% below the breakeven point. So if a farmer

(26:39):
goes into their community bank, their traditional kind of farm credit system, uh, lending institution,
they're usually on much shorter terms with less flexibility and they're demanding a higher amount
of repayment too early that doesn't allow for the regenerative organic transition to successfully,
you know, increase resilience and increase profitability of the farm. So by mad cap,

(27:03):
having a, I'd say the way we originate capital is more aligned with just ecological cycles and the
tempo that, you know, nature, uh, tends to beat to that's where we can really help enable successful
transitions. So in that cap, as of today, we're working in roughly 16 States, uh, over about 79,000

(27:25):
acres of farmland and helping our farmers transition about 10,500 acres to certified organic. Um, and
that's put about 30, uh, producers, um, mostly row crop farmers. Uh, but also we do work with some
grass fed, grass finished pasture based operations as well as some specialty, uh, operations like, uh,
cotton farmer, um, and yeah, some unique, uh, vegetable, uh, like, uh, popcorn for example. So, um,

(27:53):
yeah, it's a little bit about mad cap where we're at. You want to add anything? No, that was pretty
comprehensive. I would say that, um, and just to add something there would be, you know, a lot of
the most forward progressive farmers in what they are trying to do or is not understandable

(28:15):
from a traditional banking perspective. You know, we've heard story after story where a farmer will
enter the bank and literally get sort of laughed out of the bank. Um, we hear stories of farmers,
you know, really being sort of, um, um, um, dismissed by their communities, you know, um,

(28:35):
there's a real, I think, especially in rural communities where a lot of people tend to do the same
thing. When you begin to do something different, the, the level of human judgment can rise very quickly.
And that level of human judgment, um, for sort of bucking the system can be seen through everything

(28:56):
from the local coffee shop to like the banker's office. And so folks that are kind of, you know,
pushing out on the edges of change are usually unwelcome and they're often iconoclastic and they
have to like, sort of, you know, build that courage to sort of be disliked. And so when mad

(29:17):
capital shows up, you know, there's often this huge amount of kind of mushy, gushy camaraderie,
you know, where you're like, Whoa, where are you from? I'm so glad you're here. Like what's up,
you know? And there's a, it's like a human connection that often is like part of the

(29:37):
genesis or origination of the relationship that yields this like wonderful kind of sense of
camaraderie and movement building. Like we're in it together. And so, which is true. I mean,
that's how we approach things. Um, we really do approach it as building a revolution in ag, which,
you know, in so many ways is community based. And so, you know, um, yeah, I would just say that

(29:59):
there's like this kind of wonderful ethos around that, that sort of pervades the way that we work.
Yeah. Cause if you think about it, you know, only one out of a hundred farmers are certified
organic in the U S so these are, these types of farmers are rare. Um, they're just out on the
prairie, usually lone dogs, not feeling like they have any sort of support. So that's where,

(30:20):
you know, it's like suddenly like they've been searching in the dark with a flashlight,
like they come across us. It's, you know, it's a little exhilarating and it's exciting for us too.
I mean, we love meeting new farmers, hearing their story, understanding how they're approaching
transition and, you know, their mindset and then being able to hopefully work with them and,
you know, support them, um, to go further faster. Um, so it's, it's exciting for both because we're

(30:43):
both, uh, both farmers and Madcap are focused on a small niche. Um, you know, this, it's not,
it's not for everybody. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, I feel that camaraderie just,
just kind of being, I, it, the regenerative movement is very, um, very niche and few and,

(31:03):
and far apart, right. All over the world really. Uh, and so you get it, you know, I, I tried doing
an off-grid farmstead with my wife. We failed, failed at it miserably, but while we were doing
that in our community, we got, we got so much grief, grief around, uh, um, around what we were
doing and, and why we were doing it. And we always had to explain, you know, 10 times more than what,

(31:25):
what we thought we were supposed to be explaining to them. Uh, and, and just to even be accepted
within, within our Montana community. Right. Um, so yeah, I, I definitely feel that and when seeing
the work that you guys are doing, I would definitely be like, yes, this is so amazing. Please,
please. Uh, I want more of you and where have you been all my life. Right. Um, so let's,

(31:50):
let's get to the story time on this and let's, let's take us back wherever you guys want to start
the story, uh, is, is perfect. Uh, but tell us how did, how did you get to this point building
mad capital and where you're at today? Good question. I'll kick it off. Yeah. I'll kick
it off and you can, you can riff. Um, yeah. So man, there's, it's tempting to start on like

(32:15):
the childhood, like land, you know, maybe I'll do briefly, which is, you know, like I, yeah,
I grew up, I grew up in Maryland in this really wonderful ecological just place. Um, that I think
at a young age, you know, I came into this awareness that, um, you know, how we steward the earth

(32:39):
through agriculture basically shapes, how the earth is used. And so, you know, my love for
everything from like blue crabs to like, you know, horseshoe crabs and herring and shad and
the beautiful ecosystems that I was falling in love with as a kid, I realized that like their
greatest detriment was the agricultural practices that, you know, sort of surrounded me. And so I grew

(33:02):
up working on farms, was very well acquainted with it. And, um, I thought that my like sort of
purpose in life was to be an ecologist, to understand their beauty and how they function.
Um, and I spent 15 years as an ecologist really deeply exploring, you know, natural ecosystems and

(33:22):
really how to protect them and what's the basis for conservation. And, and eventually I got to a point
in the kind of academic vein of ecology where I was just sort of over serving the cerebral side of
things and felt that my gifts and my passions were much better suited by thinking more holistically

(33:44):
about how I could show up in the world. And, you know, I tend to be someone that shows up as an
artist and as the poet and as a, you know, as a community builder and, you know, in academia,
just crunching data all the time to publish papers, it was highly limiting. And so 2016, I had a bit of a dark
night of the soul on a bit. I had a dark night of the soul, two nervous breakdowns, full, full spiral

(34:09):
into the vortex. I'd never struggled deeply with depression, but as I've looked back on that time,
I was really struggling as an individual to take all of this sort of bubbling goodness and light
that was in my soul and figure out how to translate it into like practical work. You know, it was,
I tried a couple of things. I failed at them really miserably. I spent a lot of money. I drug my wife

(34:33):
and my kids through a lot of stressful times and I still had like no answers around what I was going
to do. And I was like, my God. And then I, in that kind of dark moment, I went back to some of the sort of
wisdom keepers that I like to lean on. Wendell Berry and Terry Tempest Williams and Mary Oliver and
Jon Kabat-Zinn and, you know, the list goes on. And in that kind of re-approach to those wisdom

(34:58):
keepers, I stumbled back on the Mad Farmer poems. And the Mad Farmer poems are these amazing poems
that Wendell Berry wrote in the late seventies that call humanity to this radical re-imagination,
you know, of society and economy based on love, reciprocity, community values, place-based wisdom,

(35:18):
ecological principles. And they have this like healthy dose of like, it's an invitation to be
slightly insane, right? Like let's play at the margins. Let's, let's play at the edges. You know,
I believe change comes from the margins. And so, you know, I, I love the sort of spirit of those poems,
the way they resonated. And then out of that, um, in 2017, 18 really began thinking about forming

(35:45):
Mad Ag, um, which is a nonprofit. So Mad Agriculture, Mad Capital spun out of Mad Agriculture,
the nonprofit, and I'll get to there in a second, but essentially Mad Ag started as a, uh, just a
gathering and community base for farmers in the, in the front range of Colorado. We would gather farmers
into an old Grange hall. We would, um, cover everything from carbon farming to philosophy

(36:11):
around kind of capital and money all the way to like practical policy things, you know, related to
hoop house heights, you know, in the, in the Boulder area. Like we were kind of covering all these zones
and somewhat unconsciously during that period, what I realized we were doing in hindsight was that we
were approaching agriculture and the problems that farmers and ranchers face with a really high dose

(36:34):
of empathy. And we were learning a ton about their challenges because we were listening with our like
deepest hearts. You know, we were, we were really giving our, our all to say, what is up? How can we
support you? And then out of those learnings, Mad Ag started to find purchase. We started to find like

(36:56):
our feet below us and we started running and you know, what we've come to learn is that
there are kind of four big barriers and there's a lot of barriers, but there are four big barriers
that we're addressing that we feel like if we can help farmers and ranchers overcome these barriers,
there's a good chance that change is going to be successful and it's going to happen rapidly.

(37:17):
And Mad Ag, the nonprofit started and still works really in kind of that boots on the ground,
land and business planning, thought partnership side of things. So a lot of farmers or they have an
idea about where to go, where, where they want to take risks, where they want to build this new

(37:37):
ecosystem, but they often struggle crossing that idea into action. You know, I mean, even myself,
when I plant cover crops in my little two raised beds in the hills, I'll spend like two or three hours
just Googling cover crops, you know, and I'm thinking like, you know, farmers who pull their
livelihood from a landscape, transformation is really daunting. And so, you know, a lot of the

(38:02):
way the work nonprofit works is that kind of thought partnership that comes alongside supports and helps
de-risk those kinds of early actions. Um, and so that's, that's been a core of the nonprofit. Um,
we also do a lot of storytelling in the nonprofit. We believe that story or myth or narrative is
absolutely critical to animating the revolution. You know, a revolution doesn't happen because of

(38:28):
data and facts. It happens because your soul longs for something. Um, and so, so we're very cognizant that
the revolution needs to be beautiful. It needs to be irresistible. It needs to be delicious. It needs to be
fun. It needs to be attractive financially and otherwise it needs to build community. So like
a lot of our nonprofit work plays in those, in those realms. And, and I think we're just kind

(38:53):
of getting started with it. We're kind of, we have this like rich ethos about it and we're just
starting to flirt with like, what does that actually look like? Um, I'll wrap it up here, uh, kind of
quickly. Cause that can be loquacious. Um, but I want to migrate. Okay. Um, so we're migrating
across the office because we need other people in the office work. Um, but yeah, so the thing that I'll

(39:21):
wrap up about and say is that out of that nonprofit work, um, we also learned that without money,
it's very difficult to make these changes. Um, it became very practical, um, where we would often
be ideating with a farmer in the land and you're like, okay, here's an awesome vision, but where

(39:45):
am I going to get the money? And so what that led us to do was to think about where does money come
into a farm and how does it come into a farm? And essentially money comes into a farm in two ways.
Um, it comes in to the farm through where you sell your crops, livestock and or fiber,
um, through the markets that you have access to. And then it also comes into the farm through where

(40:08):
do you get your financing? Um, some farmers have equity financing with partners, but by and large,
most farmers have debt financing. Um, and so what we realized was, is there was a huge opportunity
to start re-imagining both the marketplace side of things, as well as the capital and
financing side of things. And so I won't dive into the markets right now, but what we realized

(40:34):
on the capital side is that a lot of farmers, especially their transition to organic, they go
through this valley of death where, you know, they'll go into the red during those three years
of transition. You know, they pull the chemistry, the chemicals out of the farm system, their yields,
perhaps drag down. And during that period, while they're rebuilding soil health and investing in

(40:56):
natural capital, um, they're spending money and more money than they're making. And so a lot of banks,
you know, who operate under the principle of getting like principle and interest at the end of the year
or the annual note, you know, an organic farmer comes in the door and they're like, what do you mean
you're not going to pay me back for three years? Um, and it's just sort of confusing.

(41:17):
And so what we realized is, is that, um, there was an opportunity for us to not radically re-imagine
finance, but to change some financial products to be better tuned to the business model of organic
farmers. And with that simple tweaking, we have found incredible resonance, you know, that kind of

(41:39):
tweaking of the financial product, which meets our kind of values alignment and our commitment
to the cause that sort of suite of, of features of how we show up has really, really given us a lot
of like rocket boost, um, to be successful. So that's, um, a little bit about the sort of longer
origin story. Um, you know, about what, five years ago I met Brandon in a coffee house and we just hit it

(42:05):
off and, um, I'll let him tell his story and entry point into the work. Right on. Great.
Yeah. So med Phil about five years ago, it was, uh, November, November of 2017 had just moved to
Boulder kind of only a few months prior and I was working in carbon markets and was working to help

(42:29):
figure out how to put carbon in the ground or mitigate carbon through these more kind of
traditional, uh, carbon offset, uh, markets. These are all, you know, climate action reserved,
um, uh, qualified projects like methane capture avoided grassland, uh, things of that nature.
And along the way, uh, right before I met Phil, I had learned a lot of the problems with carbon

(42:51):
markets around double counting around effectively auditing, um, that the project in around additionality
and really trying to figure out if it was the highest and best, best use of, you know, really
society's energy. And if, if carbon offsets, we're going to solve, you know, the climate issue that
we're facing. So I was already having a lot of these thoughts and then we met up with Phil

(43:14):
at Trident, um, downtown Boulder, and he was deep into the work of figuring out what that was going to be
and trying to sort out what the best and highest use of his energy would be to help more farmers
transition to regenerate bag. So then throughout 2018, uh, we really just went on, you know,
a learning journey of trying to understand all of the different problems that farmers were facing

(43:39):
across, you know, access to capital markets, uh, place and, you know, information. And, you know,
that that's what resulted in, you know, forming multiple entities that we have now across the nonprofit
and add markets and add capital. Um, but early on when we were really starting to hear that
access to capital was a challenge, um, we, we, we thought the solution was potentially going to be

(44:05):
carbon markets. You know, if a farmer can make 20, 30, $40 an acre additional on top line, that should
be enough value in order to drive or incentivize change on farm. But early on to that, we discovered
a lot of the challenges with MRV and specifically additionality and row crop systems, um, that make

(44:25):
that just a, it'd be a multi-decade endeavor that we didn't think we were best suited for.
Um, and we also discovered the difference between the value, at least financial value creation that
organic farmers can have compared to conventional. Um, so organic farmers can typically sell their crops
for roughly two X that of conventional, um, which ends up driving substantial profit margins for,

(44:51):
uh, organic producers. So, you know, we believe that in order to create real durable change,
you've got to be able to create the right financial incentives, um, to ensure that all stakeholders,
you know, are aligned and that we're able to create enough of a carrot to create, um, you know, mass,
uh, scaling transformation. And the difference between an organic farmer being

(45:14):
able to add a thousand dollars to the top line compared to a regenerative conventional farmer
adding 20 or $30 to the top line from carbon markets is just, it's, it's substantial. Um,
so it was obvious to us to start focusing on where the, the bigger gap was. Um, and then over the
proceeding, you know, three years, we decided to, um, one, one evening we're in our co-working space

(45:38):
and we decided to launch a fund and call it the perennial fund. So, you know, we bought the domain,
the perennial fund.com that made it official. Once you have the website, then you have to do it.
So from there, we, we ended up applying to a large grant, um, from the conservation that we got a
conservation innovation grant from the NRCS. It was about $1.8 million that allowed us to actually

(46:01):
launch the initial funds to try to find product market fit, to validate if these ideas and theories
that we had were actually going to be practical in the real world. And, you know, the rest is,
you know, history at this point. I mean, we raised the $10 million fund one, we deployed that, uh,
we're now in market raising a funds to, we've got great farmers, we've got a great community of

(46:25):
investors and, you know, the wheel is, is really spinning, um, at this point, but you know, it all
started with an idea and then being able to just root that down into the real world. And, you know,
it was messy and confusing and entirely, I think we were entirely unsure if it was going to work.
I mean, we believed it would work, but you know, we can't have certainty in that. And I think, uh,

(46:48):
our willingness to just kind of plunge into the unknown and, you know, figure it out along the
way and be adaptable is really what allowed us to, to get to where we are today. So feel grateful that,
you know, it has worked out. Cause I mean, there have been moments along the road where certain,
yeah, certain stars didn't align. Uh, we would not be, you know, in this office today with a,

(47:11):
with a team. Um, so it does take a little bit of luck, uh, as well in order to just to keep the ball
rolling. For sure. I think that's with any, uh, venture, uh, nonprofit for profits. Uh, it's,
it's all about a little, it's the luck, it's the risk that you're taking on. Uh, it's about the

(47:32):
dedication, uh, all, all of those kind of, uh, come into line. Oh yeah. Um, that's all of it.
Yeah. I mean, we'll get into that, I think a little bit, but the, the tenacity that it takes
to build something and launch something in the world, whether it's a nonprofit or for profit or
whatever you're creating, it is not for the faint of heart and you have to be, you have to go all the

(47:57):
away, you know, you can't, you have to go all the way. And even if you do, you might not make it,
you know, if that risk taking the sort of luck, you can create some luck, but some of it is,
is truly out of your control. And so, yeah, it's, uh, it's been a really wild journey and one that
I'm grateful for. I feel like we're actually like crew, not cruising altitude, but that we sort of,

(48:21):
um, the rocket boosters can, we can shed the rocket boosters, I think in the next like 18 months,
you know, like we can sort of let them fall and we can say, ah, we've like hit exit velocity.
You know, we're, we haven't, we have that in, in her, in our horizon of view.
Yeah. It is at that moment where it's like the spaceship is shaking, like space and entering

(48:43):
orbit is like right there. And we're so close to being able to just exit the atmosphere.
Uh, so it's, you know, for us, it's kind of this final moment of, and, and we'll probably not final,
but it really hard push over the next, you know, six to 18 months to just get into orbit.
And, you know, it's been five years now leading up to these moments, but it does feel like it's,

(49:08):
it's right there. Um, but yeah, as Phil was saying, I mean, the, having kind of a burn,
burn the ships mentality is what it takes. I mean, we're, we're all in,
and it's either going to be a one or a zero. It's not this kind of, oh, I hope it works out.
It's no, we're putting our, all of our focus to watch this one egg and we're going to take care

(49:29):
of it and it's going to work out. Um, but being able to have that, that grit day after day is, uh,
yeah, it's challenging. I mean, it can be a little wearing too. So it's just, uh, uh, yeah.
And this is something that we're actively like kind of living through and trying to
sort out how to have the right relationship with like the ability to drive and work hard,

(49:51):
but then also, you know, be able to relax and live a good life at the same time,
which is probably the perennial issue of all entrepreneurs. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Let's take a moment for a brief promotional break and talk about the state of our world.

(50:12):
There are famines, floods, and fires in our backyards, a global recession affecting our
economies and war and conflict tearing down our relationships with one another. You see it in the
news, feel it in your wallet and talk about it in your social networks. It's hard to think that it
doesn't affect you in your personal life and bring you down in your work. Except you want to regenerate

(50:33):
our lands, turn our economies into circular ones, and do it in collaboration and community with others.
How are you supposed to do that when it seems like everyone's working against you? You're an
entrepreneur and you have a business that's going to help us solve these problems and bring these
solutions. You're telling me you're going to change people's minds and raise capital for your cause and
bring in triple bottom line profits. You must be an optimist and dreamer or completely out of touch.

(50:56):
Who's going to buy your products or services, take you up on that offer or help you fund your do
good business. We will, who are we? We are the regenerative business economies network,
a connected group of impact entrepreneurs, peers, colleagues, funders, allies, and supporters of
regenerative enterprise building. Together we take on the financial and personal risks of building

(51:17):
regenerative enterprises. It's all of us together that creates the change we want to see. We must
believe in each other and the work we've devoted ourselves to. If you want to be supported and also
lend support to impact entrepreneurs like yourself, follow the promotional link in the podcast
description or head over to seedsofdao.com and click on join the community. With that,

(51:37):
let's get back to the episode.
I'm curious and maybe we can dive into this for just a moment for all of us listening and going
through that entrepreneurial endeavor. I love how you guys were talking about, I always say this to

(51:59):
clients. What is the orbit shot, moon shot, and star shot that you're looking for, right?
And so what does it look like as you're gaining traction, getting out and you feel like, okay,
we got some breathing room. And then what is it right after that, I think is also

(52:20):
kind of a fun exploratory thought experiment of like, okay, we just made it out of orbit. Now you
kind of feel like you're comfortable. You sit down in that comfortable mode or were you guys heading
out from there, right? Because there's still a destination, right? Are you going to the moon?
Are you going to the stars? What is that? And so, yeah, maybe we can go there. But before we do,

(52:44):
you mentioned, Brandon, I think you kind of put us in that space of like, you got to manage our
ourselves of finding the balance of like really pushing and then enjoying life around us.
There's so many entrepreneurs that I speak to in the regenerative realm, especially because they
think that they do a little bit more of a martyr syndrome, right? In their work that they burn out

(53:10):
before they get to even a place of like an orbit shot, right? And so like they're grinding there,
they can maybe even see space up there and that they can get and get to that point.
But they're not they burn out right before they're there and they they explode or, you know,
something happens right right before that moment of just kind of getting that first little breathing

(53:32):
room. Well, what I guess the question is what what has helped you guys to persist and to kind of get to
the point where you're at right now, to see some some great wins and but also just enjoy the time
that you've you've had building this as well. Yeah, I think self care is super important. So for me,

(53:53):
that's, you know, just physically getting outside getting into the gym. I, you know, I'm doing something
physical five to six days a week. And that just helps me clear my mind. I mean, if I'm, you know,
deadlifting in the gym or running up Green Mountain, I mean, I'm not thinking about anything else in
that moment. And the physical is almost a means of able to clear kind of my mind, which is always

(54:20):
rolling over in these various, you know, different challenges and struggles and also a lot of wins
that we're having in that cap. So that's a almost like a forced meditation practice in a way, when I'm,
you know, breathing so hard, and you know, my heart rate's 170, and I'm going up a mountain.
I'm not thinking about anything else besides how to breathe, you know, that moment. So that for me

(54:42):
has been really important. I'd also say the really just getting things on the calendar in terms of
like vacations or trips or adventures to just disconnect. So, you know, at the beginning of the
year, you know, call it an end of the previous year, I'll work to just pinning down, you know,
multiple weeks and long weekends, and just put it on the calendar, to then just have these

(55:07):
opportunities to just unplug for a little while. Like my wife and I are taking two weeks in August,
we're going to do, you know, Iceland and Norway, and I'm not going to work at all. And if you know,
the team needs to connect, they, you know, can text me, but I'm not going to be checking my email,
I'm just going to entirely unplug. And I think being able to do that in a way that like forces

(55:31):
me to go, allows me to not make an excuse that I should just cancel it, or bump it, or push it,
always going to be, we're always going to be busy. There's all, there's an endless to-do list,
and it's, it's never going to get shorter, it's probably only going to get longer. So then it's
learning how to open the right relationship to that never-ending, just
task machine that just keeps throwing more and more things on my plate. So those are,

(55:56):
those are a few ways that at least I try to take care of my mind and body in order to,
you know, not burn out and to, to keep, to keep pushing. And there's, you know, within these,
like cycles of, you know, day to day, week to week, there's all these different,
there's like overlapping sine waves, you know, that I go through throughout an individual day,

(56:19):
throughout a week, throughout a year, that I try to have different moments to be able to
ebb and flow between driving really hard, and then also resting and relaxing really hard. But
those are a couple of the strategies that I use to, you know, at least stay sane through, through all of
this. Yeah. Mine, I have an incredible wife, Nicole, and I know that Brandon has, has Lily.

(56:45):
Um, and man, without that life partner and that rock, I think I'm speaking for both of us, like,
man, uh, I would just not be who I am. Um, and so, you know, I'm very Yang and she's very Yin,
like in terms of Enneagram numbers. I'm a seven, she's a nine. Um, and we just have this like

(57:09):
positive negative charge that attracts, but it's very different. And, you know, she's, she's, uh,
she's been my rock really through it all. And so, you know, yeah, that's probably been the most
important thing in my life is it been having her to keep me grounded and calibrated. And,
you know, it's, um, that's been number one. Number two, um, yeah, is this like,

(57:35):
it's, it's self-care. Um, I think I'm just really starting to learn how to do it in earnest. Um,
I think I've, I've been, I've played that martyr role, that over exhaustion role. Um, I know it really
well. And, you know, just in the past three years, I've found three mentors, um, in my life.

(57:58):
Um, one is sort of executive coach, like it's sort of cheapens. It's much deeper than that.
I have a meditation coach, this guy, Murph, who is so serious with me. He's basically like,
Phil, if you commit to working with me and you don't show up, you will never see me again.
And you know, you're like, Whoa, okay. Um, what's that all about? So like really figuring out like

(58:22):
what devotion to self looks like and deconstructing the idea that self-care is selfish, but it actually
is like, it's the way that we can show up fully in the world. And so whether it's meditation or
exercise or, you know, adventure days, you know, I, I, I begin to wobble very quickly if I break those

(58:44):
devotional routines. Um, and, you know, I think Brandon's the same because I know about him,
right? Like we're, we're pretty darn committed to that, those devotional routines. And they just
bring us that groundedness and sanity to show up every day, compete with passion, curiosity,
you know, a drive to productivity. Um, yeah, I would say that those are the biggest things.

(59:12):
That's great. I, I, I get so much, um, uh, of a conversation around this topic for entrepreneurs.
And I don't even try to get into this, this conversation. I think it's just something that
regenerative entrepreneurs are really struggling with right now with where we're at in our,

(59:35):
in our world and, and the things that we've been going through the last, you know, several years
with the global pandemic, uh, you know, world, we, we kind of take on a lot more than, than I think,
um, you know, someone that's not thinking about these things that these, these bigger problems,
uh, with, you know, very extractive, uh, farming systems, extractive industries,

(59:59):
and, and exploitation of, of, uh, of communities and people there we're taking on a lot more.
And so there has to be a, uh, a deeper conversation and a deeper realization of our self-care.
And I like, I like how you put it, that devotion to ourself, like has to be, uh, enough. You have to,
you have to be fully devoted to your cause, but also to yourself, right? Uh, or else it's just not

(01:00:24):
going to happen. And, and, um, and I see that so much. So, so thank you for, for sharing your,
your, the way that you've been able to, to get to this point. Um, and, and now I, I'm a little
excited and a little curious as well. Like you're, you're getting to that point where you're, you're in
that orbit phase, right? The, the orbit shot, um, tell us maybe a little bit of what that orbit

(01:00:47):
shot looks like, but also like, what does it look like to get to the moon, to the stars? What are you guys
planning on? I'm excited. I'm excited to hear. Hmm. Yeah. I'd say, I'd say the next big hurdle
that we're trying to cross to get into orbit is a successful fundraise of our second, uh, fund.
So we're raising a $50 million fund too. We have some great early anchor investors, got some great

(01:01:10):
farmers we're working with. And the reason that this fund is important is it gets us to profitability
and being a break even business. Um, it puts us in a position of, uh, surviving and being a much more
resilient entity. And it gives us the opportunity to step back a little bit, slow down a little bit,
and also think about what our next best steps are from a business and long-term, you know,

(01:01:35):
growth standpoint are really are because, you know, our mission is to, from a numeric standpoint
at mad cap is to be financing 5 million acres of farmland by 2032. So there's a going from zero to
one, zero, like zero, just being an ideal land and mad cap being a theory and thinking about

(01:01:56):
capital access as being a problem to then raising the first fund, raising a C brown and then raising
the second fund and being a profitable business. That, that was a monumental effort to get us to this
point. And then to take us from there to actually financing 5 million acres is, is going to be
another, you know, five to 10 year journey. Um, and we want to make sure that with all the lessons and

(01:02:21):
wisdom we've been able to harbor over the last few years that really putting that to, to good use. So
we think that, you know, the next step beyond that will be a larger, more evergreen structured, uh,
funding vehicle. So, uh, right now we raised what are, we raised what are called 10 year closed ended

(01:02:41):
funds, which are not necessarily aligned with nature and agriculture, which is perpetual and going to,
you know, exist for the next millennia to come and beyond humanity. Um, so we want to create a funding
vehicle that isn't limited by time, um, and allows us to work with these longer term projects. So an

(01:03:03):
evergreen open-ended fund, um, it could exist, uh, hypothetically for forever, um, or at least for
centuries where we can raise capital, deploy that capital into farmer, into farmers hands, and then
investors can redeem as they're looking for liquidity out of the fund. So we think that, you know, the

(01:03:23):
kind of next big hump after the second fund is raising a $250 million fund three, um, starting at the
$250 million and then perpetually fundraising our way upwards. Um, and then along the way, likely making
some, you know, micro pivots and market focus and how we, how we end up structuring loans to farmers. But

(01:03:44):
we think that that could be the vehicle that then takes us to, you know, the moonshot, uh, mission at
least over the next decade to be financing 5 million acres of farmland. Um, but beyond that, I mean, I'll let
Phil maybe lay out more of the vision that we've set out for, for mad, which can go far beyond,
you know, financing 5 million acres of farmland. Yeah. So a couple of thoughts there. One,

(01:04:09):
just reiterating the kind of orbit shot is 50, you know, 50 million raise and default alive. Like,
you know, if we can not go back out to market and raise another equity around in the top go,
it'd be really, really good. I, I do not like the venture treadmill. Um, and so we are really doing
everything we can to reach break even. And it really is in that spirit of like self care,

(01:04:33):
right? Like we, we know that if we reach break even, we can support the salaries and the team
and the farmers and we can steward what we've done without having to stress about constantly raising that
money to support ourselves. And so that's, that's the orbit. Yeah. The moon, um, the 5 million acres
that Brandon's talking to is kind of positioned within this theory of change that we would love

(01:04:57):
mad ag to, um, be one of the core people responsible or core organization responsible for
creating what we feel like is a tipping point in the revolution. So if you look at somewhere around
that 10% zone of adoption, um, there are some challenges there. Um, but if we can press that

(01:05:17):
10% zone of adoption, there is a very strong likelihood that there will be inevitability
to the revolution. And so we're really kind of, you know, gunning for that tipping point in the way
that mad capital, mad markets and mad ag are working collectively as a force. And so within those teams,
we've kind of divvied up like, Hey, you're responsible for this. You're responsible for

(01:05:40):
this. Let's like go at it holistically together. And so, um, some of that underlining theory of
change really relates to like the numbers of acres that are transformed, the numbers of farmers
that have adopted it, um, and stuff like that. So we can get into that if you want, but that's,
that's what drives those kinds of quant numbers that we're shooting for. Um, and then, you know,

(01:06:03):
beyond that, I think it's interesting to, to think about where we could go from there. I mean,
I think that by the time, if we hit those quantitative goals of 10 million acres total
in 10 years, I think the organization is going to have this really wide diversity of ways that we work.
So for instance, in mad capital right now, we, we have an awesome private credit solution for

(01:06:28):
organic regenerative farmers. Um, yet we can't serve all the farmers that we want to be able to serve.
You know, just because we can't possibly under underwrite, you know, like oyster farms,
we just don't know how, I would love to underwrite an oyster farm. Um, we can't underwrite a lot of
specialty crops and perennial things right now that are long term, like chestnut forest. You know,

(01:06:51):
we, we don't have the right capital, you know, that to match to that. We're like a first time farmer
that lacks equity. Um, like we have some limitations of what we can do. So I think like, as we grow,
I would love for us to proliferate our financial solutions, um, as it comes to mad capital.
And I think the same kind of proliferation of services is going to happen at mad ag and mad

(01:07:14):
markets as well. And so, yeah, I think 10 years from now, I would love for us to hit those big
kind of acreage and land goals. And I'd also love for us to be working internationally. I feel like
there's a ton of opportunity to take the lessons that we've learned here and start moving them across
the world. And, you know, the spirit of self care, I would love to work in Europe and have an office

(01:07:35):
office in Barcelona. Um, it sounds amazing, you know, so like, why not, why not dream about it?
Right. And so, um, yeah, so we're, we're sort of, uh, really tied to the decadal strategy that we have
in place around impact and scale. And at the same time, there's this kind of like, again, living the

(01:07:55):
questions, what do we want to grow into? And I think what I would say too, in the spirit of like the
entrepreneurial journey is, and this is what Brandon has really brought to this team and
across the org is focusing on one thing and doing it really well. So that it drives very clear impact
and value and using that success as a stepping stone to do the second thing. And just, it's very easy in

(01:08:23):
the entrepreneurial creative mass to want to do it all at the same time. And I think that there's a real
discipline in that focus that what happens is, is like, well, I was talking to someone from
Australia yesterday and they're like, listen, you guys are like the go-to company for transition
finance. And I'm like, I think we are like, I think we have transition finance like down. And so, um,

(01:08:46):
it's nice to be known for that. And from that position, now we can build out and go, oh, we're
going to do infrastructure. We're going to do equipment loans. We're going to do mortgages. Um,
and so, you know, that sort of like focus, do one thing, well, use it as a stepping stone,
you know, I think, I think is a lot of our internal mantra here. And so that's just another
kind of flavor around both the entrepreneurial journey and then the mechanism or the vehicle

(01:09:11):
or the way of being, you know, to get to that orbit shot, moon shot, you know, sort of galactic
shot. Cool. Uh, both of you kind of hit some of the things that I was hoping that you would hit
of like, where would I like to see you guys? You know, uh, one thing I'm in Panama,
so I'd love to see you guys, uh, guys here in, uh, Central America maybe, or doing some different

(01:09:33):
loans in, in, uh, and, and, uh, in areas that are seeing a lot of deforestation and, and different
things right there. And the other side of that was like, I would love to see you guys figure out ways
to finance, uh, you know, early startup farms. And I would also love to see you guys, uh, do more

(01:09:54):
agroforestry and more perennial stuff like that. That would just be amazing to kind of see you guys
evolve into those, those places. So it sounds like there's, there's so much potential. I personally,
I found you through a friend that was like, got really excited that there was someone in this
transition, uh, uh, funding phase. Right. And he was like, man, you got to take a look at this.

(01:10:17):
And then I started looking at it. I'm like, I've got to talk to them. Uh, so I reached out to Brandon
or I can't remember. I think I reached out to both of you and Brandon answered. I'm like, yes.
And then we got, we finally got our conversation today. Uh, so thank you for, for, for taking the
time to, to share your story, the journey that you've been on and how it kind of led you to,
to this point, these entrepreneurs that are listening, they're doing so many different things.

(01:10:40):
They are taking on a lot. Um, and they, they probably do maybe still feel some burnout.
So I think we'd talk to them in that mode for sure. But what I would really like to end this,
this conversation on is like, what would you hope for them, uh, to take away from, from the story?
Um, obviously they're, they're going to take what they need from it, but what would you hope
they take away from, uh, the story that you shared?

(01:11:02):
I would say that building a company or building an organization or building anything, um, that
is ambitious and, you know, risky takes time and having the ability to just build it brick by brick

(01:11:22):
and having the patience to build it brick by brick is, is absolutely critical. I, um, when I graduated
college back in 2016, I biked across the country from Boston to Portland, Oregon and sitting there
on the coast with having just tipped my toes in the Atlantic ocean, thinking that we were somehow

(01:11:43):
going to make it all the way across the country, the Pacific ocean in a matter of a couple of months
just seems daunting and almost impossible. Like there was so much room for error. Um, you know,
could have got hit by a car bike, could have had a major mechanical issue, you know, weather health
issues, whatever it may be. But, you know, every day we just woke up, we pedaled literally pedal by

(01:12:07):
pedal. And day by day, we ended up moving our way across the entire United States, 3,500 miles,
um, did it in 54 days and we got there and we got to the ocean and it was actually this interesting
moment when we got to the ocean where it was, it was exciting and satisfying to have done it. But

(01:12:30):
there wasn't this like explosion of like, we just won the lottery or this big moment of like,
we did it. We actually realized that like when we got to the ocean, we're, we're looking at the
Pacific that it was, it was the adventure and the journey along the way that really was the exciting
part. And that's what it was really all about. Um, so two things that, and I know that's kind of,

(01:12:53):
yeah, cheesy, you know, enjoy the ride, not necessarily, but it is, it's true. Um, so I'd
say a couple of things to take away would just be to, to focus, you know, build, build it brick by
brick and, you know, eventually you can get there. But we even think, you know, when we get to 5 million
acres of farmland financed, 10 million acres of the mad entity, it'll be a success and it'll feel

(01:13:16):
great, but it's not going to, it's not going to solve any of the internal ailments of what we finally
did it. Okay. Now we can rest and be happy the rest of our lives. Like we have to, we have to learn
to live and enjoy, enjoy it along the way. Um, so there are a couple of life lessons that I've learned
along the way that I think are important to ruminate on. Yeah. It's a great one. Yeah. Here's

(01:13:39):
a kind of a disorganized list. One is like care for yourself and figure out what that means.
What does devotion to your own wellbeing look like? And it's a slightly different thing than
discipline, discipline. You can beat yourself up. If you miss a day of working out with discipline,
devotion looks at yourself with curiosity and compassion. So that if you miss that day of
meditation, you go, Oh man, what was up? What do I need to adjust? Maybe I didn't need it that day.

(01:14:02):
You know? So I really like this kind of shift from discipline, devotion, and self-care
don't carry the weight of the world. Focus on the things you can change kind of the stoic philosophy
of like, you know, the news will crush you. Um, so, you know, dabble lightly, um, be a global
citizen, but focus on your locus of control, um, so that you can feel really rewarded by the things

(01:14:26):
that you're stewarding and the fruits you can bear. Um, I would say find some like true believers,
whether they're funders or donors, investors, whether they're team members, like you can't do
it alone. Um, you know, one of the greatest things is having Brandon be the CEO of mad capital and
having a team right behind this door that we're talking behind, you know, cranking and working.

(01:14:48):
And so, you know, I think that like a lot of founders have trouble letting go, um, letting
go of maybe expectations of themselves or letting go of big ideas or projects, you know, the sunk cost
fallacy. Like I've been at this for two years and you're afraid to like, you know, wipe the whiteboard
clean and let it go. And I think like letting go and getting good at letting go, you know, is like a,

(01:15:14):
is a really good practice. And there's actually a lot of like Buddhist wisdom and letting go
of like, you know, you got to feel the whole thing, the shadow, the light, the goodness.
And then when you let it go, you got to really let it go. Like you can't hold that resent and
harbor that like edge of like the hooks that can find their way to you. And so I think being able to
sort of let go across the board, you know, um, can really be helpful for your own sanity as well as

(01:15:40):
not burning yourself out. So those are those kind of three nuggets that just came to mind.
Right on. So, so good. Um, it's been a great, uh, pleasure to, to be able to hear your journey
and then to be able to get this out to other entrepreneurs. Uh, thanks for taking the time
again, um, for our audience that wants to, to follow what you're doing, maybe get involved,

(01:16:06):
uh, reach out if they're farmers or just be in tune with, with your work. How can we stay in touch?
How can we, uh, uh, keep on following the journey?
Yeah, I'd say the best way is the website, madcapital.com. We have a contact form on there
if anyone wants to get in touch. Also LinkedIn, um, fairly active on there. We post on, you know,

(01:16:29):
madcapital's, uh, webpage pretty frequently. Then madagriculture is also another portal. So you can
check them out on Instagram that agriculture has a newsletter. Um, they also have, you know,
LinkedIn to follow along. So I would just get plugged into all the different mad entities. We've
got a variety of messages that we're putting out there, uh, whether it's access to capital or markets

(01:16:51):
or more of the storytelling cultural work. Um, but yeah, Google mad and you'll, you'll find us.
Yes. Right on. For those that are listening, we'll get those in the show notes as well. So you can head
over to, uh, the, um, well description of this podcast, as well as the, uh, the website or this,

(01:17:11):
the landing page for this, this podcast. So thanks again, Brandon. Thanks again,
Phil dude. It's been, it's been a pleasure to, to really get to know you, uh, looking forward to,
to following your journey and, uh, bye for now, everybody. Thanks for joining us today.
We hope you enjoyed the podcast and it really is a blessing and a pleasure to bring each episode to

(01:17:32):
you. So what'd you think? If you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review or follow us on the podcast
platform of your choice. Each review really does help us further the reach of this podcast and move
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(01:17:55):
known as region B, which is linked in the description and in the show notes of this
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(01:18:16):
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148: Regenpreneur Story - The Soil & The Ledger with MAD Capital

Podcast Episode: The Soil & The Ledger: Seeding a Regenerative Future with MAD Capital

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