Ep. 24 | Sexual Liberation vs Conserative Black Women feat. Ashley Cobb - Selective Ignorance with Mandii B

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Selective Ignorance. However,

(00:03):
before we get to this week's episode, I want to
remind you guys to purchase my book No Holds Barred,
a dual manifesto of sexual exploration and power. So feel
free to go to your local bookstores preferably queer owned,
black owned, or woman owned to support them, but also
just click the button on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, or

(00:23):
wherever you read your books.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Again.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
That is No Holds Barred, a dual manifesto of sexual
exploration and power, written by yours truly and my co
host of the Decisions Decisions podcasts, Weezy.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Make sure y'all get that. Now let's get to this
week's episode. This is Mandy Bee.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Welcome to Selective Ignorance, a production of The Black Effect
Podcast Network and Iart Radio. Welcome back to another episode
of Selective Ignorance, the space where we question what we've
been talked to ignore, and today we're talking about the
swing of the pendulum, and not just any pendulum, but
the one that defines the boundaries of women's autonomy, sexuality,

(01:02):
and public power. If y'all know me and y'all know
my platform. It's something I've stood for for a long time,
and the conversation today may shock some of you on
where I stand with where we are at. Remember the
first fire of the Me Too movement, Remember the boldness
of the SlutWalk, the raw sexual liberation and the lyrics
of Cardian Meg with Watt and so many other women

(01:24):
in hip hop who made us feel seen, not for
the male games, but for ourselves. It felt like we
were getting somewhere, that we were finally rewriting our narrative
that women could be sexual, powerful, free and not have
to pay for it with silent shame or survival. But
here's the uncomfortable truth. The pendulum has swung back, and

(01:45):
that's my take. But I'm joined by someone to help
me out here. Okay, it's been a hard swing. We've
watched Roe v. Wadefall, decades of bodily autonomy reverse in
a single legal blow, women forced to navigate pregnancies under
laws made by men who will never carry them. We
watch Diddy walk, and not in shame, not in accountability,
but in a world more invested in protecting his legacy

(02:08):
than listening to survivors. We still don't have the Epstein
client list either, because the system protects perpetrators, not the prey.
So the question is can a woman feel truly sexually
liberated in a world that still refuses to see her
as a victim When harm is done, we're owning your
body is somehow still an invitation for violence, judgment, or dismissal.

(02:29):
The patriarchy didn't just push back, It snatched the mic
and started rewriting the verses that we out here trying
to make for ourselves. What we called liberation, they reframed
is excess. What we call power they painted as a threat.
So is sexual freedom real if it's always up for negotiation?
Let's talk about it, And by that I mean all

(02:50):
of it, the illusion of progress, the weaponization of empowerment,
and what it means to seek liberation in a world
that punishes.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
You for it.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
This is selective ignorance, and we're not letting this pendulum
swing without calling it what it is. And y'all doing
that this week with me as always, My super producers
Jason and a.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
King are on the mics. Y'all might not hear them
too much this episode, but you know, we steel like
to have men.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
We like to have we like to have men in
the room during these conversations, so I do implore you
to speak up for men during this conversation because I
don't want people to feel like we're here just to
bash them.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
Me.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Here's the thing, here's the thing with the internet. Whenever
we're speaking to things, none of us know all of anything.
I don't know all men, I don't know all women.
I am only here to speak for my experience, and
my guest is doing the same thing.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Today.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
I am joined by Ashley Cobb, who is an award
winning sexual health expert who hosts the Sex with Aishley
podcast and is working on a book for release next
year called Pleasure Please. She also was on an episode
of Horrible Decisions where ooh, we talked about all things.
BD has some contracts and if you want to listen

(04:18):
to that, you can go over to the Horrible Decisions Patreon.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
But really excited to have you on. It's funny because it's.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
One of those where I truly believe out of sight,
out of mind, and I just ran into you at
Essence Fest right. We were at the Black Women's Health
Imperative booth where we got to hand out signed copies
of my New York Times bestselling book, No Holds Barred.
Shout out to Gilliad Sciences who sponsored those books for everybody,

(04:48):
and it's just always.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Good seeing you in those places. Did you enjoy your time?

Speaker 1 (04:54):
The Internet has been loud about their thoughts on Essence fest,
But did you enjoy your time? What kind of conversations
where you having that weekend?

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Have you been before, like you know.

Speaker 5 (05:03):
So I've been going to Essence before working for Essence
before Covid. Okay, so I've been going pre COVID touch
my friend from college period and had a good have
a good time. So this is my This was my
second year actually working getting booked by Essence. So I
this year I was the host of one of their panels,
well not panels on the stage, one of their talks. Okay,

(05:25):
So I hosted a it was Essence after Dark. I
noticed it was the day time time, but me and
they had a sex therapist on stage, so I asked
her questions and then she got to answer a questions
from the audience.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
So it was really cool. It was a really cool
little little panel. I love that. I love that. Uh.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
This was my first year there and I worked the God. Yes,
So I will say this.

Speaker 5 (05:50):
So last year where I did Essence, I did Essence
every day all three days, and I was from it
was from one to like four and and so I
was in the convenience center all day because I also
contract with Black Health Imperative, Okay, And so when I'm
not on the Essence stage, I'm with them, Okay, So

(06:10):
I am working, so I don't get to do like
the Traveler the fan ring. I'm there as a as
a as a worker, Okay.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
So it's a very.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
Experience when you're working Essence and then when you're going
to Essence as a as a lay member.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
So I may have to go back in thirty years
when I'm the age demo.

Speaker 5 (06:31):
Okay, Well, weasy not calling weezy now.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Look we're talking about what it is.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
What's crazy is I ended up getting able to party
and have a good time.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
I also.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Love that they're having the talks around sex in this space.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Because it's still very much like still not being had.
And I guess I'll.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Start with what the weekend kind of meant for me,
and I'd get into even where I'm at with this
topic as a whole. Right, So this was our like
first time really being invited to Essence in the eight
years that we were doing even horrible decisions. We were
invited maybe three or four years ago. The offer was

(07:29):
basically like, here's some pennies, but we would have had.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
To pretty much pay to be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Would we would have had to come out of pocket
to be a part of the weekend, and at the
time that just didn't make sense, right, So this was
our first time being a part of Essence on a large,
major scale. The day before getting there, it was brought
to us that we were New York Times bestsellers. So
literally the night before I leave out, I'm getting the

(07:56):
announcement from my publisher and I'm like, oh my god.
Like I was on such a high because I'm like,
whoa New York Times bestseller? That's the best, Like that's
the highest accolade that you could have as an author,
right like the way an artist gets a Grammy, the
way actors get Emmys. And Tony's like, this is the
pinnacle of being an author, and so I get to

(08:19):
celebrate it. We finally are going to Essence Fest, which
we were like we made it.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
And we get there and there's there's.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
A few companies we are attached to during the weekend,
and as I'm checking into my hotel, I'm told that
one of the companies apparently did their due diligence. Mind you,
the day that I'm there, less than twenty four hours

(08:52):
after being New York Times Bestselling authors for our book,
No Ho's Barn, we are told that the company wants
nothing to do with our brand, that we do not align,
that our brand is not brand safe.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Mind you. We are seven months into our rebrand.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
The book, and what we actually stand for is empowering
for women, and so.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
Literally did not get to.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Feel the triumph or celebrate having this new title that
I thought would stamp me as official essentially, you.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
And it was just even more heartbreaking because it's like, Okay,
I'm at this festival that celebrates black women, but on
the other foot, a sexually liberated black woman is where
we draw the line. And so I brought this to

(09:58):
therapy and I've just been feeling really defeated lately, like
in terms of my branding, my messaging, what I want
to put out into the universe, because when I meet
my fans, when I go on tour.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
When I'm at booth signing the books.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
The response from the women on the ground are that,
oh my god, this is transformative.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
You've saved my life.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Essence, it was so dope to meet women in their
fifties and sixties like, Ooh, I wish I had this
when I was younger.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
There were so many thank yous that it becomes unfortunate
that the louder voice the bigger voice.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
And let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
I'm not even talking about white men here. I'm not
even talking about men as a whole. In other instances,
and I've shared it on my other pod, I may
have shared it here. I've had to fight black women
within the space to feel respected or seen because black
women also don't want to allow other black women to

(11:04):
be liberated, right, And it's and it's and it's strange
for me. And so I'm not going to start off
this pod bashing black women, I promise, but I do
want to open the floor to letting the audience know, like,
this isn't just the patriarch versus the matriarch, This isn't
just a man versus woman battle.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
It's like overall.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Society and where we exist as people and so pre production,
I was talking to Ashley and she was like, oh yeah, girl,
oh you just found out black women are my biggest hater.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
And so where is it.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Or what is the tug of war between us wanting
to find the freedom and existing while also trying to
make other women not feel so like do they feel
attacked with our liberation? Do they feel like we're taking
them a few steps back by being liberated? What are
the conversations you've been having and what is the response

(12:01):
from your type of content too?

Speaker 3 (12:02):
So before I get to that, right, yea, I have
a question.

Speaker 5 (12:04):
So the brand who brought you in, right, yes, what
did they think you did?

Speaker 4 (12:10):
We?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Decisions Decisions is still a and and mind you, we
don't say it's a sex pod, but it's a dating
and relationship pod, bitch. When you date and you relate
you sex, okay, Like I like, I don't know, I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Because I mean, yes in your name it pops up.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
And Horrible Decisions is still very much a part of
our brand. It's still there. Mandy and Wheezy are Horrible Decisions?

Speaker 3 (12:34):
Right? Yeah, I don't I'm not gonna lie. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Mind you a part of the rebrand was to be
able to step in more spaces and kind of amplify
our voices essentially because I get it. Not everyone wants
to call themselves a whore, right, everyone has sex, but
not everyone wants to be labeled into those type of stigmas.

Speaker 5 (12:57):
But yeah, and so I will say this, so essence
is very as as Mandy has said, is for the
thirty five and older aunties my direction of people, and
so it is very conservative, very much so. I think
black women in whole are conservative in general, even once
we are fucking are are our conservative or conservative adjacent?

(13:21):
Like you know in particularly instances Also well, the magazine
is from New York, but the festivals in the South,
so you have women in the bell like you know,
we talk about six but we don't talk about out loud.
It's the thing that we don't. We do hush hush,
So like even with them, even with me working working
with them for the last two years, you know, it's

(13:43):
very it's still very The content that we do is
very PG.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
Content.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
But outside of saying hey, we're a condom or be abstinent,
what does PG sex content look like with like for
me from a liberating side. So is it always unpg
to advocate a woman to have sex for her pleasure
or get her orgasm and not be doing it just

(14:12):
to get a certain attention from the male gaze or
to reproduce, like outside of reproduction. I think that's my problem.
Sexual liberation is really about having your own autonomy and
being able to say yes or no, or being able
to advocate for yourself as a woman in the bedroom.
And so for this for sexual liberation that has such
a goddamn negative, bad off the wall non conservative stigma

(14:37):
is crazy because it's advocating.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
You're advocating for yourself.

Speaker 5 (14:40):
And I think so like for me personally, like professionally,
I think, well, let's talk about this past essence. So
for me, they put me on the stage as the host,
and they had a sex therapist okay first who answered
the question, which was totally founding me. Like she was
very clinical, she was very professional, she was very you know,
cussing real life right, I said, I say pussy, I

(15:04):
say fuck right, you know, So I have to be
very cognizant of that when I'm in different spaces, and
so like getting me to do the whole stuff that
works because I might say an answered that it might
not be on brand for them, so they paired me
with someone who was very much on brands.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Okay, it kind of works for me.

Speaker 5 (15:24):
I am just and this is and maybe this is
me taking the scraps, but I am just happy that
they actually have and uh, they're allowing kind of set
conversations to be taking taking place. And yet so it's
not on the main it's in stage which one day
I hope that one day it gets there, So it's
on the little stages all throughout the room. But I'm

(15:45):
just happy that they're at least having the conversations and
that people are at least walking away with something. I
guess that that's the something better than nothing kind of mentality.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
The crumbs.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
Let us let us just continue receiving the crumbs, right,
And I think you even saying the baby step. That's
why I want to get into this conversation. But before
we do, y'all know, I introduced a new segment. It's
called double Down or Take It Back, And I recently
said with Shamboo dram about what sexual liberation kind of

(16:19):
looks like to me or what I thought it looked like,
and how that shifted, and boy were the comments commenting. Okay,
so I want you to listen to my take on
the Lover's podcast with Shamboody and hear your kind of
thoughts on what.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
I had to say.

Speaker 6 (16:38):
About that, because you always hear the story of the
woman who was sexually liberated, did her thing, had her
whole phase, enjoyed it, who then finds a partner, finds God,
finds insert here and now is like, if I could
give advice to younger women, it would be don't respect yourself,
love yourself.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
I don't think that that's the advice I would give.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
I'll be honest with you too, Like even with the
rebrand right, and I think as a woman seeking her
own sexual liberation and what it really means is freedom
and power to remove yourself from all stigmas and all
labels that patriarchy has wanted to give us. Right, however,
to feel free and to feel powerful, and to be

(17:18):
able to express to a man no, and to say, actually,
this is how I receive pleasure. If you can't do that,
I'm fine me not changing myself to appease a man
or to be more likely for him to select me.
That's power that's liberation.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
You believe it.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
So I want to lean into kind of what the
comments and why that seemed like outrage. They pretty much
insinuated because comprehension skills are lacked amongst us. They pretty
much insinuated that any woman who's gone through a whole phase,
you've reached this point when you're not chosen, when you're
not married. So they pretty much what shamed me in
my comments for saying what this is more times than

(17:59):
not a par I doubled down on my takes, but
that was literally I still stand in that. I think
sexual liberation for me, at one point did look like
just being able to fuck without care, and that has
now shifted to me viewing liberation as having sex because
I wanted not to make someone like me more having

(18:21):
sex because I know what works for my body and
I'm going to make sure he's doing exactly what I
want to please me. So the fact that there's this
negative connotation around the word now bothers me because sexual
liberation did look like free hop phase, like what is
it a free spirit?

Speaker 3 (18:38):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (18:39):
And so I wanted to know your thoughts on that
clip and if your mindset has changed, or if the
way you talk about sexual liberation is different than it
once was for any for any reason.

Speaker 5 (18:53):
So yes, I think as you change, you just your
viewpoint on. As you age, your viewpoint does changed different things.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Period.

Speaker 5 (19:01):
So when I so like you when I was twenty
and I was just fucking just as the fuck because
I want to like, but.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
What did you want to?

Speaker 5 (19:12):
So yes and no, okay, so uh in my younger twenties,
so I was having six because I thought this is
what I needed to do for God to like me. Yep,
as I got towards late twenties, I was doing because
oh I like doing this right and so and now
I was just you know, right, just outside. And to

(19:32):
be honest, last summer I was also outside. She said,
Actually it was just outside, right, you know, just it changes.
I'm not as outside, It's just different like so now
as someone who is forty.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
So yeah.

Speaker 5 (19:46):
So so somebody told me, somebody told me what advice
would you give a girl? And I was like a
young a young woman consumed to what shann asked you?
And I told her A whole longer, hole longer, whole
longer is my advice. And I'm a saved I need
to know what because right this is going so I

(20:07):
don't feel in this and this and this. Maybe this
is the feminist in me. Okay, maybe I don't feel
like women should be trying to get married in their twenties,
like you should be doing that thirty.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Get married in your thirties.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, so you would, you would recommend that someone holds
throughout their entire twenties into their thirties.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
That's that's just my advice. Okay, that's just what I think.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
And you could take it or leave it. And what
does a woman get for ho and longer?

Speaker 5 (20:35):
So one you get to learn what what you like sexually,
you get you warn a lot about men by hoeing too.
I feel like you get to learn how men operate,
how they think, how they deal with other people, how
they deal with you.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
I feel because when you a whole, they honest, they
letting you. All the other women.

Speaker 5 (20:52):
Say you could you get to know how men operate
because if you're just someone who's being like I've been
in one relationship for say, I got to out dating
my high school sweetheart. I also don't believe you should
marry the first guy you dat in high school. You know,
shout to my mama.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
I just don't believe I ain't gonna hold you the
way I'm about to clip up everything you're saying, I
can't wait for the internet.

Speaker 5 (21:13):
I just don't believe that from from from what I've
seen in the older generation, right, our parents generation, they're
the ones who.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
Got married young. They seem lost.

Speaker 5 (21:25):
Yeah, got a high school sweetheart, only man you've been with, right,
and so you don't know how.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
You have no idea how that the other options out there.
You have no idea that there's better there's better sex,
there's better men, there's better men who can who treat
you right now, it gets longer, gets that, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:42):
Just on a relationship standpoint, outside of sex, it's just
better because you don't know that because you've only been
with one guy or you only had two.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
Relationships in your life. So you have got a got
B and that's it, right.

Speaker 5 (21:55):
So I think when you ho longer and doesn't necessarily
mean that you.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
Just fucking inning and everybody.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
So when you say that too, I think in terms
of what I mean is that you are centering your
centering yourself first, and you're not centering men.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
I think though that's hard the fact that both of
us can acknowledge though that in our twenties we were
very ignorant and in our sexual prowess and exploration actually
leaning more towards doing it for them and not for
ourselves at all. So to me, if if there's a
suggestion for anybody to hold longer or be within their

(22:36):
whole phase, there has to be conversations earlier about what
that really entails. And unfortunately, again the conversations just aren't
being had right.

Speaker 5 (22:45):
And it's also so with every action there is there
there is reaction and consequences, right, So there's think there's
there's rules within hoeing, like you know, where.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Out the gate you don't have babies.

Speaker 5 (22:57):
Bytery man, You fucking right, you know, k I would
stay different. She loved being pregnant.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
She love it. You know, I'm certain to think I'm
gonna do too.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah, she's been pregnant every year, she said, y'all a
never never, But.

Speaker 5 (23:14):
Like, you know, don't it's frowned upon, you know, to
fuck homies in the same you know circle if if
you want to be with one seriously, like it's just
just certain rules and things I'm gonna say, don't do it.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
But if you're doing it, just know that you know
that was my problem. Yeah, it's so I was dealing.
I was dealing with this guy.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
So before I started dealing with him, I fucked the homie. Mandeed,
she fucked the hommie. Remember I'll remember that song. Anyways,
So I but I only had sex with this guy
once and it was terrible, So it was never going back.
Ended up meeting a guy who was actually friends with
his brother but was still in the circle right. Ended

(23:57):
up dealing with him for for a few years, and
it got to where there became an emotional connection between
us and when I.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Tell you the literal.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Thing that was like, I can't get over this mentally,
and I'm gonna tell you he said, if I marry you,
that is one of my friends that will be invited
to my wedding. And I don't know how I can
handle the emotional mental gymnastics of being at a wedding
knowing you fuck my own boy.

Speaker 5 (24:27):
Men care about what the friends say, they do, lookt
the nodding of the heads.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Why do y'all care so much y'all care about about
because here's the thing, right, No, No, I just want
to say because as a woman. As a woman, if
I dealt with a guy physically and it just wasn't
good and I could care less about him, my friend
could go marry him and I wouldn't give a goddamn
my wife.

Speaker 7 (24:51):
My wife stayed my homeboy before me.

Speaker 5 (24:53):
Oh they had second.

Speaker 7 (24:56):
Day, both of them both.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Hoo.

Speaker 7 (25:01):
Yeah, it's man, still a man, you know.

Speaker 8 (25:04):
You know.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
The funny thing is, wait, how did you get past that?

Speaker 7 (25:07):
We So I'm the one who.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
I jumped in the line right like they were, they
were messing around.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
I cut the line.

Speaker 7 (25:16):
So I was a dirty dude. Yeah, I was a
dirty dude there.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
But but then but then he saw us out, he
saw us out at Greenhouse and then oh dating, Yeah,
but then but then, but then, but then I approached him.
I approached him and and you know, I talked about
like what his friendship meant to me, and.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
It didn't mean much of you out here.

Speaker 7 (25:33):
His girls, well, but it wasn't his girl.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
They were dating. That's why I said they were dating.
They were dating and it wasn't his girl, right, But
still he didn't. But it's because of the thing that
we're saying. He didn't like it, right, Like he didn't
like it.

Speaker 7 (25:46):
I stepped him.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
I was like, yo, like that, that's you know that
I didn't want to act upon like something that doesn't
agree with our friends.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
But how did you get past?

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Look?

Speaker 1 (25:56):
I think you're about to ask how did you get past?
Though actually wanting to I don't care?

Speaker 7 (26:01):
Okay, I honestly didn't care.

Speaker 4 (26:03):
And then the funny thing is it's like I knew
that they liked each other as like humans, but it's
like you know when you're young and dating and it's
like chaotic, and so it's like we got married and
at the wedding with the crib and they had a
small wedding where like there was four people, but he
came to the crib like two summers ago, and I
had a big barbecue and they're talking, and I know
that they like each other, and it's like they both

(26:24):
work in the business, so like when I see them
around each other and they talk, I know that there's
a genuine feeling there that they have for one another.
That's fine, right, Like if she were to leave me
for him, it's because of me, not because of him, right,
So there's there's there's.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Over there, like everything saying no, no, no, no, I
have questions, you feel that.

Speaker 4 (26:46):
I can feel that for people thinking that and doing that,
and I get the general like the general man stance
of like nah, fuck dad, I can't do that. I
just think it has to do with so much that's
not you, and so much it's like internally you right,
people waste their time and energy on it.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
I agree when you said they were dating, how did you?
How did you? How are you aware of that? Like
probing questions like quietly, and then you just like.

Speaker 4 (27:15):
No, I think I think I knew, Like I think
she was open with like she was dating people. I
definitely a bunch of different people. So it's like she
knew and like I could see them out together. She
would see me out with like another chick, and you know,
it was like it was it was that kind of
like the messy, a messy circle of like non committed people.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
I'm not gonna lie. You just gave me hope.

Speaker 5 (27:36):
And so I love the fact that he is because
a lot of men are into like ownership from God forbid?
Like who is Uh, it's something going viral now about
some celebrity girl she's dating.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
I think it's Megan. Megan dating Clayton, and so people
are saying, oh my god, and she gets passed around.
She's dating. Yeah, she's had to be a public figure,
so we know who she's dating. But it's a little
much to post every nigga you online. Now, I don't
post no nigga like.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
You could be sexually liberated, but god damn, like, I
don't want to see everybody inside of you.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
Like I agreed, I don't.

Speaker 5 (28:10):
My rule of thumb is want once I get married,
then I'll post him. But you know I changed, you know, period,
like the season, but no one knows that.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
But my friend, what you.

Speaker 8 (28:21):
Said before is that me personally knowing how I am
behind closed doors with said person and how sexual liberating.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
How I am. I couldn't imagine another dude being a dog.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
Oh my god, nigga, you're not the first, you're not
the last, or or you know what I'm gonna at
a party.

Speaker 8 (28:47):
But the mental gymnastics that you've met referenced before, it's.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Like, like, if you like how I'm sucking your dick,
best believe out of something other dick that way, God.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
From something.

Speaker 8 (28:58):
But what I'm saying, unless I'm in Jason's position point
of view, where.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
Were you speaking in being a dirty dog?

Speaker 8 (29:06):
Skipped the line and it don't matter, But I don't
if I'm being skipped.

Speaker 4 (29:09):
But I think to so like that that same barbecue
I'm talking about, where like my homeboy came over and
he used to date my wife. My ex was also there,
other homeboy, my other homeboy was dating her.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
Jason just saying we gotta have another.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
The next barbecue.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Hey, yo, if any of y'all a barbecue at Jason's house,
just no, him or his wife may or may not
have everybody there.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
Everybody my point, she was saying, like, you know, he
called me, right, He called me and was like, Yo,
I'm gonna bring my new girl.

Speaker 7 (29:43):
I'm like, yeah, come through, and he tells me who
it is.

Speaker 4 (29:46):
And I knew he was trying to have like the
ownership conversation, and I'm like, good dude, like I've been
married to my wife for six years.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
Wait, this hasn't been smashed before.

Speaker 7 (29:55):
Yes, this is this is we're not doing this.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
So my point, he was trying to have like the
ownership of conversations like is it okay if I bring
her over? And I'm like, yo, dude, like we haven't
dated in so long, right, So it's like that that
that idea of like the ownership thing, like just because
I dated her in the past, Like there's this whole
chain of women that are off limits because of like
some like quasi ownership.

Speaker 9 (30:18):
Giving you had a hell of a really so like
but I dated, It's that's what women did. But that's
what women say we're dating, and we get shamed for
being outside dating.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
So for example, so like back to Jason situation, so.

Speaker 7 (30:33):
You know, I don't get the situation.

Speaker 5 (30:36):
Okay, scenario scenario, scenario carry out. So like there's this
dude I was dating my first moved to a Lamba
that I knew from back home, right, and he was
a part of we went. He was a part of
a Greek organization that from now, why would you ever
do that?

Speaker 1 (30:51):
And I they don't want to be a little wait,
well which Greek organizations?

Speaker 4 (30:56):
Okay, you can't say too easy to fay.

Speaker 5 (31:00):
I mean anybody who knows it, no me, no, there,
I know who it is that knows me know him.
But so he was a part of an organization from
my from back home, right, and so in that organization
I had sex with a few people from that organization
over the years.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
Okay, it wasn't like it was all college. It was
some college.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
A lot they happened.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
Like I'm forty, right, I don't live.

Speaker 7 (31:29):
How many on the same how many? How many on
the same line?

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Though I never never knowne the same line?

Speaker 5 (31:34):
So I don't do lines, right, So I'll do so
you know, oh four oh five, oh six, three, right
oh two, there we go.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
But not none of the on l B's none of
my line ruggers the.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Very sic.

Speaker 5 (31:53):
So we had a conversation and h with I was
talking to him and I was like, oh, yeah, you know,
blah blah blah, No, I used to date blah blah blah,
you know several years ago. He was like oh, I
was like yeah, and you know, and then we I
was like, and there.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Was, you know, another one a couple of years before that.

Speaker 5 (32:09):
I even could tell him to the rest of them,
because just our conversation, I could tell like he was like,
it was a no. And I remember it was this
whole thing with he and I one time, and it
was a thing where like people realized that he and
now were kind of a thing at the moment, and
it was a whole thing and he could not get
past the fact that.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
I had these experience experiences.

Speaker 5 (32:35):
But one of the people that he knew, and I
was like, I don't understand, Like I get it, I
understand how men think, so I get it, but I
think it's very stupid.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
It's so crazy because women, on the other hand, you
you could have fucked three of my homegirls in the past.
Like we'll talk about it normally. It'll be like, like,
we don't have that ownership on niggas because maybe we
to be community.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
That's what it is. And you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
I think there's an expectation for men to be able
to be liberated right and their sexual exploration and prowess,
and for whatever reason, we're not granted that same I
don't want to bring grace to the cookout, but we're
not granted the grace to explore and find ourselves in
the same way that they do. Like Jason probably doesn't
end up with his wife if he's not outside fucking

(33:27):
on all of his homeboys girls apparently, you know what
I mean. So it's such that we don't get to
fuck it off. Are your homeboys to figure out what
we like?

Speaker 2 (33:39):
It?

Speaker 5 (33:39):
Like a small world like, even when I moved to
Atlanta five years ago, okay, and so I had a
friend here who's been here longer. She's a female friend,
and she was she was dating al in Atlanta. I
met one of her exes on a day nep. I
didn't know it was her ex though, so like, so
after I went out with him, you know, we had
six or whatever. And then I told her about the

(34:00):
after fact and she was like, girl, I know him.
And I was like, oh really really, well me too
now and so like and she was like no, she's
what she said. I was like, well, do you feel away,
you know, because like we're cool and we're really friends.
And she's like, well, no, I think you guys are
better fit because I'm into like alternative lifestyles and same

(34:21):
and Sally and all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
And so she is not.

Speaker 5 (34:23):
She's very traditional and that was part of their issue.
And she was like, I think y'all are good fit.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
It's funny because I think that we're in the space
now in terms of sexual liberation, that the relationship dynamics
are also drawing the line between us as not only
a community but within women and how we either hold
ourselves accountable.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
Four ways because mind you, I have I have maybe two.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
Or three friends refuses to identify as Polly are opened,
but have cheated on all of their partners.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
And so mind you, but.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
All hell breaks loose if their partner's cheat, but they've
also stayed there. Yes, yes, So it's just been interesting
on how we as even friend groups, hold each other
to certain standards in question while also wanting to empower
each other in bitch, I know that's right, bitch, go outside,

(35:22):
you know what I mean, there's like just this line
that can be drawn. I do want to get into
some things that have pushed us to have more of
these conversations from a cultural state. So we're gonna be
down for some ignorance real quick. In men also currently

(35:44):
not being held accountable, or it's two sides of the coin.
Men not really being held accountable for abusing women, whether
it be physically, sexually, all the things. But then also
I want to get into and this is where we
might shake some tables. There has been a backlash of

(36:04):
the me too movement where I have physically and verbally
heard and seen women weaponize the ability to accuse men
of behaviors whether they did it or not. And so
I think there's also with the me Too movement, two
things happening. We've now been educated on different terminology that

(36:27):
we're still learning. And there's also a confusion of being
uncomfortable and being.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Harassed or assaulted. And so there's this really big blur.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
And I want to talk about your thoughts and views
on now the verdict of the Ditty case, and then
I also want to get into the Ben macklamore case.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
But we'll start with your thoughts on.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Ditty and then I want to bring in the Ben
maclamore case and what we think could have happened that
happened all the things.

Speaker 5 (37:01):
So at first, let me say I didn't really think
that he was going to get on anything, Okay, so
let me start there.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
So I was surprised they found they came back with something.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
And that's because you see just that people aren't being
charged with these type of crimes. The rico was a
lot that I'm even talking about.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yes, the rico was was was a lot.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
I want.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
I don't feel like the prosecution, I don't know. I
feel like they were focusing on.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
A lot and they were poken a lot on the sex. Yeah,
and the sex was not what we were here for.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
So and then that, and then when and then uh,
when the deliberate the jury start deliberated and they came
back and said, oh, well, don't focus on these anymore.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
To focus on that. I was like, oh, he about
to be home to yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:46):
So when they came back, it was like, oh, you
know he's guilty of you know, prostitution on the Demands Act. Okay, cool,
you know, so it's get like the crumbs, like we'll
we'll take something. Because typically when power from men outside
of you know, Harvey Wanne thing because he's in prison,
you know, typically stuff it doesn't nothing happens typically, or

(38:10):
they'll or you know, well, or they'll get a slap
on the risk. Now this is a slap on a risk. Still,
now that's for him.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
I want to ask, Oh, let's see how we're gonna
have this conversation. I want to ask your thoughts on
Cassie's standpoint in the trial as well as Jane Doe,
because I think what I saw in terms of the
public outrage around their testimonies was the fine line between

(38:39):
someone being a sexually liberated wild woman that's into certain
sex acts and then also.

Speaker 7 (38:45):
Being a victim.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Yeah, saw that too.

Speaker 5 (38:47):
So I think people don't understand that sometimes that power
distores consent. Right, So someone who has more access, more money,
more employment, control, more fame, whatever, Right, So yes, they
those people hold the power, and so I may be
too scared to say no because if I say no,

(39:10):
there goes my career. If I say no, if your
a person who's paying my bills, there goes my bills.
I mean, so, yes, you could say no and I
could be homeless and not gonna have a job. That's
always option true. Yes, but you know they manipulate their
power with the access they give you.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
But does the power of capitalism as a whole.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
So it's interesting because I saw someone compare it and
it did make me think. So this is not my
my thought process, but I was like, ooh, it made
me think.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Right, Say you have a job, Say you hate the
treatment at your work. Say you show up.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
To a boss that you don't like, but you show
up every goddamn day to work. I do could you
sue that company? Because now you're a victim of abuse.
And so the parallel to see showing up if you're
showing up for money, if you're showing up because you
have alternative reasons as to why you're showing up again

(40:07):
a career and you're doing things you don't want to do,
are you a victim? If you are choosing to show
up and continue to stay in that relationship. Are you
a victim if you're choosing to continue to show up
to a job that underpays you and doesn't treat you well,
to a system which would be the power the job

(40:28):
being the company that now And so when we get
into these relationships, there's so many other dynamics where we're
actually existing in those same power dynamics. And so again
I think when you when you conflate all the things
with the actual sex they were having, there was another
struggle of power dynamics.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
But also as women, there's women that might want three
at a time.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
There might be women that like induce taking the drugs
before that. So to me, it blurred what consent looks
like because we read them say they loved him, they
went back, And so I think that that's why both
of their testimonies also didn't help to the public perceived
them as victims.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Jane Do that's the fifty.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Cents who was getting the ten thousand dollars a month.
And that's another part of this where unfortunately, if you
take money, if you are a sex worker, you can.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Never be a victim of a sexual crime.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
According to the Internet, right according to society. And so
when we have these deeper conversations of what autonomy looks like,
it's hard for me currently to be pro sex positive,
pro sex work and not understand the blurred lines of

(41:47):
how we actually can protect ourselves if we are violated,
because the world does not see those things as you
being able.

Speaker 5 (41:55):
To be a victim at all because two things are
you said, two things could be tru at the same time, Yes,
I was getting paid for a service, and yes you
still violated me.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
How do you hold someone accountable when two things are true?
Because I think that that's the problem right when we're
talking about consent, and that's where I kind of want
to get into the Ben maclamore case of it all.
So Ben Macklamore, former NBA player, he was recently found
guilty of raping a twenty one year old woman. He
was sentenced to eight years in prison, approximately one hundred

(42:24):
months she testified and if you see that both of
them testified to their own truths, right, whatever it looked like.
So she testified that she was passed out, woke up
to him having sex with her. She woke up and
he was gone. Mind you, there's videos of her throwing up.

(42:46):
There's evidence that she had to be carried and put
on this couch. His testimony is a little different. His
testimony is that he also this is where it gets
It's like, his testimony is that he fell asleep on
the same couch because there was a party at there
as teammates lakehouse.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
He fell asleep on the same couch and woke up
to her rubbing on him. Okay, he ensued sex. When
he was done, he left.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
So his testimony is that, well, she came on to me,
it appeared to be consensual. The only thing that I
did wrong was be a bad guy by not holding
a conversation with her after. So then the conversation is
also is she mad that he didn't stay and treat
her well after or was she actually assaulted? Did she

(43:35):
regret having sex with him because she was drunk? He
also was drunk as well, And so again the blurt
lines of and this is.

Speaker 5 (43:45):
What the waters get muddy, like when I go to
colleges and I talk to young boys, I'd say this,
I'm like, if you, if there has been some type
of drinking involved, if there has been some type of
drugs involved, don't have sex that night. Just don't because
the waters get very muddy.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
I just hate that that's the responsibility of the man,
because to be fair, I've had a lot of sex
drunk to where I've had to deal with the reality that.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
I don't remember what happened the night before.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
And it would be unfair to claim that said person
rake me, because I'm sure I was all here for it,
and so I just hate they were also in a
place where we remove the accountability of women should not
have sex either if they are drunk. And unfortunately, though
a lot of women are given the courage and confidence

(44:39):
to have sex when they're drunk, it allows them to
feel free in the moment, which is unfortunate because then
it leaves a lot of men in the fucked up
position to be fully responsible as to whether they sexually
assaulted or committed a.

Speaker 5 (44:55):
Crime in that And That's what I'm gonna say, Like, yes,
the woman should have sex either, but the woman is
also the person who not going to go to prison
if they say this was.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Well, neither. A lot of times.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
In this case, I brought it up because he actually
didn't put in a lot of cases.

Speaker 5 (45:09):
And there's a lot of cases of and I'm not
saying that these people are innocent and guilty, but there's
a lot of a lot of cases that are not
celebrity cases I've seen with men like the regular people
out there who are now sex offenders, who are now
had to go behind bars for something that.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Could have been not perceived that way.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
You know, people who were statutory rapists because oh I
was and this is a different topic, but you know
I was nineteen or was twenty in the girl was
sixteen or whatever, fifteen where the age is and technically
nineteen fifteen, y'all still teenagers technically, but like tricky, Yeah,
but like I know people who have like now you
have us now you have to as a sex offender

(45:51):
because I was nineteen having sex with a fifteen year
old And I know people's I know that's wrong. I'm
not saying that it's right, but you know, fifty nineteen fifty,
not before your eight difference.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, I mean, I think age difference looks different depending
on the agents too, Right, And so where we're at now,
I kind of want to get to the future where
we see us going, right, because we had the Me
Too movement, because now, unfortunately there are women out here
weaponizing the ability to charge and sue and go to

(46:26):
court on these on these acts. Jason, you found some
context from a un LV legal scholar that says that
there is now backlash from the me too movement. Do
you want to like kind of give some context to that.

Speaker 4 (46:43):
Yeah, I wanted to read this passage because it's it's
talking about some of the things that you're both mentioning
right now about like the blurred lines and the idea
of things being tricky. And so this woman wrote this piece,
it's about it. She's a legal scholar, so set in
law practices, right, So there's there's a lot of it's
built around this idea that women are not getting opportunity

(47:03):
because men will not mentor them, because men don't want
to go to dinner with them or be in conference
rooms with them alone, right, because.

Speaker 7 (47:13):
They're worried about topic.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Right, So they're worried about things that may happen, Right,
And so she says, right, we cannot let the fears
of the me too movement and false claims override the
important findings of this report or lead to an entrenchment
that will deprive female attornings of rights.

Speaker 7 (47:27):
Right, Like I said, this is about a legal study.

Speaker 4 (47:31):
But this is the part that I wanted to read
that I think is applicable to this conversation. And so
then she says, but what about the men's concerns that
they will falsely they will be falsely accused of sexual
harassment to the detriment of their reputations. Are these concerns
simply a backlash a power play, or are the men's
concerns legitimate?

Speaker 7 (47:49):
That men may have the.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
Opportunity to avoid working with female lawyers without harming their
own trajectories demonstrates that men, not their female compounds, still
have significantly more power than the women have. But nonetheless,
it appears that these men do not feel powerful because
of popular perceptions. Many are concerned that they will be
falsely accused. But the evidence of false accusations is sparse,

(48:14):
and the rate of false accusations versus the sexual miscontent
women bear make the.

Speaker 7 (48:19):
Oh, hold on not that part.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
So here's the part I one to hear men who
fear false reports may be reacting to a confusion concerning
what is actually sexual harassment.

Speaker 7 (48:29):
Oh, that's what I wanted to answer.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
So so story time and this is public knowledge, and
this was a conversation in going back to black women
and the conversation around it. So in twenty twenty, I
signed to the Joe Abouten network.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
It was me and two other co hosts.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Right seventeen episodes in from a conversation that happened on Mike,
she claimed sexual harassment in the workplace. Now, clearly it's
tough to distinguish that in a podcast setting on a
mic where we don't have hr all the things, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
So we go down essentially a huge.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Rabbit hole during this because me and the other co
hosts chose to stay on the network, and so there
became a huge isolation and attack from black women for
us choosing to stay on that network. And at the time,
it was about growing this brand that was my IP,

(49:33):
which is why I was able to walk away with
it when we left the network, Like there was a
lot of power.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
In what I was creating, and I enjoyed what I
was creating.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
So and Also, I was present during the interaction and
had different thoughts on what happened because again, blurret lines
of what constituates sexual harassment and what may not. But
I'm not here to tell anyone how they feel is
right or wrong either. I didn't really pick sides. I

(50:02):
just chose to Okay, you're gone, I'm gonna stay here.
And the conversation after that was how the fuck and
why the fuck would I say?

Speaker 3 (50:10):
And I said, well, what do you want me to do?

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Because at the at the time as well, some pass
clip from Brilliant Idiots went viral about Charlemagne.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
I'm on the Black Effect Network.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
There was something around joking with Spanish flyfe and again times,
you know what I mean, we can talk about we
can do that all day. And so I was literally
having this not only internal battle, but alternal conversations. An
alternal may not be.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
A word, but stick with me here.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Whatever a bitch alternal we're talking about, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
But the conversation was, well, then what am I supposed
to do in these work environments?

Speaker 1 (50:49):
If at any given point a man may have made
a woman feel uncomfortable, a man may have done something
and do you know what the number one response was
from women.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
Both black and queer, type, well, why do you have
to work with men? The conversation literally.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Was that it wasn't giving any forgiveness, any grace, any
ability to see a man as anything but a monster
who would eventually perpetrate or violate another woman. It was
just like, there's a lot of women owned companies out there.
You're a woman, start your own network, and the conversation was,
you don't need to work with men. And I literally

(51:28):
could not see how that was the logical response. And
so when articles like this are now being written, when
I'm having conversations with friends, or when a nigga like
Rick Ross is going on the radio admitting to not
wanting to have female artists under his label because he
might want to fuck him and he doesn't want to
blur the lines. When we had people like Joy Taylor

(51:51):
expressing that, yeah, I had relations with niggas in my company,
and now there's a whole lawsuit around it. Unfortunately, the
answer is not that men and women cannot coexist in
a work environment.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
It's just not.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
But I don't blame men right now for fearing I
don't either that at all, you don't either like what
would be?

Speaker 2 (52:14):
What?

Speaker 3 (52:15):
What? What would have been if we were speaking at
that moment and you were not in your head.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
So I'm sure it came across your timeline of all
the things that happened, what would have been your advice
to me or any woman that may or may not
have been going through the same thing like in that
present time?

Speaker 5 (52:32):
How do you answer what should have been done? So unfortunately,
probably at that time I probably would have been like,
oh why why are you there?

Speaker 3 (52:40):
Too? Okay?

Speaker 5 (52:41):
But since then this is why, this is why I
think women should have platonic male friends. Okay, so I
have a lot of platonic male friends now right whom
where I'm able to hear men's opinions, because if you
just surround yourself with women all the time, you hear
pretty much the same it's an echo chamber, child, Yeah,
the same talking points pretty much. And then you started, let's.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
See, friends would have been just like me who thinks
out side of the box.

Speaker 5 (53:07):
And if you and most people don't, it's group things, right,
And so then you're gonna start to think, oh, this
is right, this is what I hear all the time,
Oh this is right? This is what this is what's
being repeat to me in my circles. It's not until
you talk to other people who are different from you culturally, gender, religion,
all the things that you learn, Oh okay, maybe my
way of thinking is cute.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
Right. And so by having male friends, like real platonic
male friends who were smarter than me, some have different
experiences than me, some who are married, some who were single,
I'm learning like, oh okay. I was like, oh okay,
I get it.

Speaker 5 (53:44):
Maybe you know how I think it's not the only
way to think, and their other options.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
And I think it does nothing but limit our ability
to be in safe spaces. If we're not allowing ourselves
to view men that can change that can learn so
the same way.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Right.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
I recently shared a story about being stealthed. When it happened,
there wasn't even a word for it. When I learned
the word, I was like, oh shit, this is happening.
These conversations are now being had to where men can
understand that what they were doing was a violation. And
so if we're learning about our own traumas and instances

(54:22):
through educating by language being broader and us having more
platforms to have these conversations.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
There has to.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Be an allowance for men to do the same. Consent
is another word that we are all still trying to
fucking figure out, which is crazy.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
Change.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
It changes, It's literally changed. And I want to add
some of the things just so that you guys are familiar,
and Jason, if you could look these up real quick,
because you're a journalist and I want to get the
dates right. I recently saw this woman talking to Candice Owens.
Do you know that there was just a law that
was passed in nineteen ninety three that it was actually

(55:00):
crime and illegal to beat your wife. That may sound crazy,
but if y'all know a little further back, there used
to be a law that said you couldn't rape your wife.
That is an actual thing. They used to claim that
if you were in a committed marriage, that the man

(55:20):
could not have at all any ability to sexually assault
his wife. And so there was no way for even
wives at the time to I see you over there looking,
did you.

Speaker 4 (55:32):
Get the so the rape one in all fifty states
it was. It was decriminalized July fifth, nineteen ninety three
that I was born.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Prior to that, we were still we were still born.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
We were born during a time where you could not
be criminalized for raping or beating your goddamn wife.

Speaker 4 (55:54):
And that same act was Violence against Women Act that
that same one had the three it became illegal in
all fifty states ninety three.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
I mean I was two or three, but we were
born at a time where that wasn't a crime. And
so when we're talking about being millennials and in the
space of women finally gaining power, maybe we're not talking
about voting rights anymore. We're literally talking about the rights
to even be able to express and tell and have
any viable, like like.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Way to receive justice.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Because I'm saying that this happened, and so the conversation
about well, why did it take so long for you
to come out, and well why didn't you say something early?

Speaker 3 (56:42):
And well why are you just now?

Speaker 1 (56:44):
It's like, bro, do y'all not see that there there's
literal laws that there were certain states that a woman
could not even speak up for it. And so again
back to being sexually liberated, it's almost it's almost frustrating
to me that women don't see how it can be
empowering and as men, if you have a mom, a sister,

(57:04):
a daughter. How you don't want a woman to be
able to have a voice to speak out about her mistreatment?

Speaker 5 (57:10):
Back to uh to black women being my biggest haters?
Uh huh, Right, so we said we don't see it.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
We don't. We women don't really.

Speaker 5 (57:21):
See uh, sexual liberation as a thing that should be
talked about, not openly.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
I feel, as a whole in general, how do we
learn if we're not speaking about it openly?

Speaker 5 (57:31):
They want you to learn, you know, with your friends,
you know, quietly in the corner.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
They want you to learn with the men that also
don't want you to be sexually liberated.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
So how are you supposed to get to that place?
But I don't, I don't know. I don't I don't
even have we don't. We don't say that.

Speaker 5 (57:46):
But like I will say this though, like in this
in just my my life, in my in my career,
like I don't really because I don't consider myself a
sex educator.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
All right, this is just not okay, I am a
I U. I don't know. I write about sex, I
talk about it whatever you want to call that. Oh yeah,
I don't like the sexpert title. I don't.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
I don't want that because even with the book, right
with with my experience, it's a lived experience. But I'm
no expert. And every chapter that I wrote is still continuing.
Nothing is even though each chapter in it with a.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Period, it ain't period.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Like I'm still navigating all of those different things within
my life. So I'm no expert on it. And what's
crazy is in terms of sex, because it's so nuanced,
because it's ever changing, even within the laws, I don't
think anyone is really an expert at it now. There's
not a real blueprint to how to navigate anyone any

(58:46):
one particular is like what makes me come, don't make
you come?

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Period? It is different. And like I just put the
terms s experts. I had to put something because I
like sexual health exper Well it's still out.

Speaker 5 (58:57):
Of an expert something, okay, like oh cool, that's why
I'm there. But I will say, like in terms of
like black women, so there are a lot of And
I had this conversation with somebody else who is a
buddying she's a sex educator expert of sorts, okay, and
she was like she went to a conference, a very
well known conference for sex therapists and educators and all

(59:20):
that stuff, and she's and she was like, she doesn't
really feel what's the word looking for? She doesn't feel
not seen, she doesn't feel like she belongs. Why because
and this is the black woman, And she said, because
other black women feel like that. They're because they're more
educated than her, Like because I have a PhD. Or

(59:42):
because I am a therapist and I have my own practice,
or because I've been doing this for twenty years. You
know that, and you just because she she she has
she got her certificate from like a certification program for something,
which still it teaches you basics and teaches you about
sexual sexual health, teaching you about a sex anatomy and
all that stuff. So she is educated. But because it

(01:00:04):
didn't come from a school or because you have a PhD,
they feel like she.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
I had the conversation with Shambouti. A part of her
going to get her license and a part of her
even getting married.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
She said, how am I here giving relationship advice? And
I'm not married?

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
And so a part of her going to school and
doing those things is to be seen as a professional,
which is why weezy and I I try to not
I'm not gonna put an expert on me, but the
fact that I feel like I've done just as much
help to the community in educating and giving people power
then anybody would have got damn PhD.

Speaker 5 (01:00:40):
And Shannon I had a countries before too, because she
was like I was on her podcast years two, three
years ago and we were talking about and she was
at times she was in the process of getting her stuff,
and she explained why she was doing it. I was like, Uh,
maybe I'll do it. I'm not but after thinking about it,
but I get it. People feel like because and and

(01:01:01):
the people are black women, feel like, oh, I know
for me, just for me. When I first came onto
the scene, people felt like, uh, what you mean?

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
How are you? How are you getting more followers than me?
How are you getting different gigs than me? How are you?
How are you writing for this magazine? How are you
doing that?

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
In comparison is the Thief and Joe Bin Yo goddamn
business right, how are you doing this?

Speaker 5 (01:01:25):
How are you doing that? And how come I'm not
doing this. I've been out here longer, I have the degrees,
and she is just someone who they feel like just
started yesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
And I think I think for me being someone who
lives in empowering others. It's been unfortunate to feel so unempowered.
I was having a conversation with Candia Essence as well,
and I was just telling her like, I feel like
I'm wearing the scarlet letter because like we did a

(01:01:55):
rebrand and now brands are still like, you know, even
though you're a New York Times bestseller, your book got
the word sex in it, sexual exploration? Is you know,
to have to exist with this scarlet letter for wanting
to lead an empowered movement. It was crazy because she
has Grammys, she has all these things, and she was like,
oh girl. As soon as I candy coat of you know,

(01:02:18):
the bedroom stuff, and she was like, you know, she
toured the dungeon. Those things we couldn't even talk about
with her because it's sex related. And she was like,
oh girl, not until I started doing the Broadway, am
I even now being invited to certain She was like,
NAACP wasn't trying to see a bitch for being sexually liberated.

(01:02:40):
And I'm like, this is so much a part of
our history because we weren't allowed to be, because we
were used for our bodies, because even as black men,
they were seen as bulls essentially, or they were seen
superior because of what they had between their legs. Everything
about our entire existence has been sexualized, and in twenty

(01:03:01):
twenty five, it's something that we have to hide from.
It's something that we can't like like stand on it.
It's so so stressful, it is and uninspiring and unempowering
and draining to feel like the work we're doing eight
years in, Baby, I'm just gonna have to continue wearing

(01:03:23):
the scarlet letter because.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
That's what I'm doing.

Speaker 5 (01:03:25):
I've just I'm just like, Okay, this is my this
is my lot in life.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
I've come to accept it.

Speaker 5 (01:03:30):
To accept it, I don't even with like people who
have like if you ever going to my Instagram, like
I really, I don't even I don't sell any toys
on there.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
I don't talk.

Speaker 5 (01:03:39):
About sex toys because Instagram will take it down. People
can you can even have a website that has toy
and have like a payment processing system because they take
it off.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Oh wow, they equate it to like prostitution.

Speaker 5 (01:03:52):
And so it's just one hurdle atter, another hurdle atter,
another hurdle. So because I have some some young lady
reach out to me and she's like, well, how what
are your tips? Because I'm trying this and keep getting
blocked and I'm keep getting block blocked, and I was like,
I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Already had no tips. You just have to keep trying
because it happens to everybody. It's just frustrating.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
In the news, though, I want to get into the
last segment because we talked about a little bit of
the future. We talked about how we've existed as essentially
millennials and being born during the times where certain laws
even still existed.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
But gen Z, they're saying, are having less sex. I
can see that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
But yet gen Z are also open to more non
traditional ways of having relationships as well. So when we
think of this younger generation coming up, do you think
it's going to be a more healthy sexual exploration experience
or do you feel like they're going to reach a
lot of the same kind of obstacles and herders that

(01:04:53):
we've had to overcome.

Speaker 5 (01:04:54):
Notin'll be a lot healthier because they are also already
very opened of different sexuality, different gender identities. You know,
they are so open and they are into doing all
the things and they're not shame about there's no shame
with them. Like my generation. I say, my generation is
the first generation that talking about something dick out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
Loud and period. Right, yeah, the person say we love
sucking day.

Speaker 5 (01:05:20):
Yeah, you know our mothers No, I don't even know
if my mother even had dick in her mouth.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
She did, but she didn't talk about it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:27):
You never heard he never heard the same, right, never
had her even mentioned word penis mouth together in the sentence.
So like you know, so like this next generation, they
are open to trying all the things. They're like our
generation we label everything is gay, and our generation, yeah, everything's.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
Gay, like that's it's not gay, it's not. But their
generation if it's gay or not, that even care.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
They don't care the labels are being I want to
read something from the New Yorker, and it may actually
be why so if you think about what you just that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
You didn't even know your mom was having sex.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Right, so you know the idea of if someone tells
you not to touch the red.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
Button, what do you want to do touch the red button?

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
So they're saying, and this is part the New Yorker,
that casual sex can be arranged as efficiently as a
burrita delivery from door Dash and so because it comes
across as something that's more accessible, that's more not only accessible,
but acceptable, casual sex, finding partners online, all the things.
It's so easy and free. At us, it's there, Okay,

(01:06:32):
you don't need you know what I mean? As for us,
there was almost this thing of being secretive of doing
something that you didn't want people to find out about
the same maybe excitement that men get from cheating.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
I don't know, but you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
What I mean, Like there was excitement about finally being
able to do something that they said was so terrible.
And for gen Z, we're now speaking about pleasure in
a way that it's like, Okay, I can have it
and enjoy it, kind of like an espresso martini. I'll
have it when I wanted, don't need it when I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
You know, that means we're doing our job. I feel
like I think we're helping them a little bit. Jason.
From these articles.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
I know that there was quite a few about why
gen Z were having less sex. Did you see any
other dynamic that made it to why they weren't having
so much?

Speaker 4 (01:07:20):
There was a lot that was saying they're better at
setting healthy boundaries, that came up articles.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
That that's true, but we weren't talking because we ain't
have podcasts like mine to listen to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
Our parents, and they didn't talk to us about sex, and.

Speaker 5 (01:07:36):
We solved their fucked up relationship and we're like, okay, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
And then sex Thatt in high school just said don't
have sex or you're gonna get pregnant or die. Yeah,
like it was one of the other. And so there
was never a conversation around pleasure. There was never conversation
with women about how to say no because we didn't
want to. Like there those weren't having being had. So then,
in terms of the revolution of sexual liberation, I want

(01:08:03):
to ask you, Ashley, before we get out of here,
are we heading in a direction that we may actually
be able to celebrate sexual liberation or do you feel
like we'll always be under the guise of the patriarchy
as women first and then black women second, Because I
think there is a difference between between the two.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
So in our lifetime at least, okay, the hopeful person,
the version of me, the hope of version.

Speaker 5 (01:08:33):
Says that yes, But I don't know, I don't know
if it'll be our lifetime.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
I think it might be like our children and grandchildren.
Because our kids are they're already kind of there. I
think it's gonna take a while. It's gonna take a while.
It's gonna take fifty years.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
Maybe you think another fifty years a woman's sexual sexual
liberation doesn't keep her from having to wear a scarlet letter.

Speaker 5 (01:08:57):
Yes, I think the kids, like the high schools, college kids.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
They're gonna have to be like and then their kids will.
I think they're already leading and starting. Okay, so once
they get grown, grown, like thirty, then I think it'll
be by the time i'll be say so, you know so, then.

Speaker 3 (01:09:13):
Maybe in our life, so maybe a lifetime. Do you agree, Jason?
I know a king is over there too, But do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Y'all believe that that you will in your lives be
able to see women be celebrated for their their sexual exploration.
And I only ask y'all that too because it's hip
hop heads. We saw the women of hip hop kind
of be torn down and almost tried to be a

(01:09:43):
raise for their celebration of sexual liberation, which looked like
removing the male gaze.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
It was the empowerment of us.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
The music was for us, and I think from an
even musical standpoint that has been removed because the feedback
from it was, well, this is what are y'all teaching
the youth. This ain't liberating, this is ruining our community.
I want to ask y'all, y'alls thoughts on women being

(01:10:10):
able to express themselves and actually be celebrated.

Speaker 7 (01:10:14):
Yeah, King, you're gonna go, King.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
I'll go, or I'll say, I don't think so. I
think it's gonna well not, you don't think what.

Speaker 8 (01:10:22):
I don't think that women will be celebrated universally. I
think in community.

Speaker 7 (01:10:28):
But no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
First off, we know the Middle East over there ain't
having none of this ship.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
They can always show their eyes. So we're talking about
us over here.

Speaker 8 (01:10:37):
The no, no, no, we got a lot, We had
a lot of work to do and now we got
a lot of more work to do. You feel like
so you feel like we've made pockets. Yes, we gotta
push pockets. But it all it's all about continuum, right.
This is why things that you say, things that other
women say, things that actually says right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Hopefully five years, ten years.

Speaker 8 (01:10:57):
When the ones behind you, you know, get this content,
this audio and they able to listen and unpack and
kind of dig into the philosophies of it, maybe that
they can continue the narrative, so to speak. So I
don't know, I'm not confident that you know overall. No,

(01:11:17):
I think that in certain areas in our culture and community, yes,
you'll get that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
I agree with you, especially just again we talk about
the outrage and the response from a lot of people,
and for me, the work has to be done because men,
the ones probably in their mom's basements using the Wi
Fi that they don't pay for, when they get into
the comment sections of things, when they spew their hate
and negativity towards women owning their own autonomy. That's where

(01:11:45):
I see so much work having to be done because
outside of the actual people with platforms, the people consuming
the content are loud on the Internet about being upset
about us speaking out for ourselves, showing people that there's
another way to receive pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:12:03):
And so I am with you, like, I don't think
it's gonna happen.

Speaker 5 (01:12:06):
I will say, I think like for like the black
community though, like I feel like we have a very
very very very very long.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Very long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Oh girl moving to Atlanta, We're probably wasn't I just
telling you probably ten fifteen years behind New York, like
like the conservative nature of what you were saying. I
was like, I was like, oh wow, I thought I
was gonna come down here and there was gonna be
even more black swingers groups and black sex clubs.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
And I was like, oh baby, it's so small down here.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
And I was just like, oh wow, you're right as
a community, we're even it's gonna take us even further,
which is why the black women voices right now seem
so loud in not supporting this movement of liberation for us. Jason,
I wanted you to get your thoughts into before we
wrap it up.

Speaker 4 (01:12:59):
Yeah, I was gonna say from that same study that
I read earlier, she ended it by saying men must
respond not only by being not sexist or not harassers,
they should be capital letters anti sexist. And you know
that's obviously like a yeah, it's just it's just such
a huge shifting behavior. Because I wrote down what Ashley

(01:13:19):
said earlier because it was funny and I thought she
should be on T shirt.

Speaker 7 (01:13:22):
True, it's like I get how men think, but it's very.

Speaker 4 (01:13:25):
Stupid and like if you asked me, like, well that
happened in my lifetime. By the end of my lifetime
probably like like not anytime soon. I think it's gonna
be like by the end of my lifetime. Yeah, like
when I'm ninety five, it'll be like finally.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
I die.

Speaker 4 (01:13:43):
But yeah, I just I just I just think that
that oh cheap point, like you've been saying, like you know,
women are your biggest haters.

Speaker 7 (01:13:52):
Would like, men just have so much shit that they
have to.

Speaker 4 (01:13:54):
Unpack something like this weird and like the weird like
puritan bag that they always like go into where it's like,
you know, they want to shame women for stuff, but
they go and do the same exact thing.

Speaker 7 (01:14:05):
That's a badger honor like until that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Well, yeah, because men are whied different and men are
men are hunters, and men like.

Speaker 4 (01:14:15):
The big wide patriarchy like thing that you say, it's
like it's so societal and like to unlock all that
and to reverse all that, like that's like generational work.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
You know, I agree, I agree, I will Ashley. What
would be your.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Final thoughts essentially on I would say, maybe, you know what,
let's do something here. What would you want to say
to black women who go against the work that you
and I are currently doing. What would be your thoughts
to them if they are listening, if they are women
who don't believe that we should be platforming conversations around

(01:14:52):
hoeing and telling women to ho longer and save marriage
for later, specifically the black women listening who may not
be aligned with our messaging, what would be your message
to them?

Speaker 5 (01:15:03):
I think they are against us out of fear, okay,
Like it's okay, sis, I don't want your man right
like I I feel okay, like it's fear based because
what you mean you're telling you're now you're telling my daughters,
or you're telling people to go out here and have
all this sex and then you know, oh, then that

(01:15:24):
means that maybe they feel like their sex is not
gonna be good enough, and then maybe your husband's gonna
leave you for a a bitch you can focus stick better.
I don't know, but I feel like I really do
feel like it is based in fear mm for a
lot of people, okay, And and there's no need to
be sis like you kid, there's no need to be there,

(01:15:44):
there's no need to be like the same way I feel.
I I feel that same way about people who also
shame people for having open relationships. That's fear based, Like
people like, well, why I wanna do?

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Why?

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
Why do that? Just be single? It's that's crazy. It's
fear based. It's fear based.

Speaker 5 (01:15:58):
Yeah, I think it's fear based. I So my thought
would be to just broaden our horisons, get you know,
talk to people, get more, get education from talk to
people who are outside of your circle.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
I agree, or listen to podcasts like this Yes, or
Sex with Ashley or Decisions Decisions.

Speaker 5 (01:16:17):
Or something Yes, like, you have to be able to
talk to people who don't have the same beliefs to you,
to have a deeper understanding why people are the way
they are.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
Absolutely, and that's what this god damn podcast is about. Ashley,
thank you so much for joining me today. I hope
that you guys really took in this conversation and you
take it to the group chat, you take it online,
and you really again push yourself to listen to more
conversations to understand.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
The nuance because nuance exists. Again, there's two truths, and
to just open your ears to understanding more. Y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
This is selective ignorance where curiosity lives controversy thrives and
conversations matter.

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See y'all next week.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
Selective Ignorance a production of the Blackfec podcast Network. For
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Thanks for tuning in the Selective Ignorance of Mandy B.
Selective Ignorance. It's executive produced to buy Mandy B. And
it's a Full Court Media studio production with lead producers
Jason Mondriguez.

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That's me and Aaron A.

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King Howell.

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Now.

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If you want the full video experience of Selective Ignorance,
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Ep. 24 | Sexual Liberation vs Conserative Black Women feat. Ashley Cobb

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 24 | Sexual Liberation vs Conserative Black Women feat. Ashley Cobb