Selective Ignorance R&B Debates | Bonus Episode - Selective Ignorance with Mandii B

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Selective Ignorance. However,

(00:03):
before we get to this week's episode, I want to
remind you guys to purchase my book No Holds Barred,
a dual manifesto of sexual exploration and power. So feel
free to go to your local bookstores preferably queer owned,
black owned, or woman owned to support them, but also
just click the button on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, or

(00:23):
wherever you read your books. Again. That is No Holds Barred,
a dual manifesto of sexual exploration and power, written by
yours truly and my co host of the Decisions Decisions podcasts, Weezy.
Make sure y'all get that. Now, let's get to this
week's episode. This is Mandy be. Welcome to Selective Ignorance,
a production of The Black Effect Podcast Network and Iart Radio.

(00:44):
I'm your host, Mandy V. Welcome back to another episode
of Selective Ignorance, the show where we say the quiet
parts out loud and leave no hot take unspoken. Y'all.
Today we are talking R and B, rhythm and blues
right the heartbreak, the bedroom soundtracks, the vocals that make
you clutch your chest on the a train, or in

(01:05):
your car, or in bed next to the person you
probably should be next to you. From the classics that
raise us. Yes, I'm talking Mary Usher, Brandy Aliyah to
the artist trying to bring the genre back to life.
We're unpacking it all the iconic albums, the ones that
maybe you consider a bit overrated, underrated, the biggest influences,
and the messy question that's been lurking in the shadows.

(01:29):
Does R and B still get the respect it deserves
or did the industry push it to the side while
we weren't looking, or with drank getting your feelings or
do both? And let's get into it, y'all. It's another
episode where I'm joined by my super producers and listen,
I don't know what you're doing over there. Jason over

(01:50):
there making all the noise, all the noise, He's he've
got it, like hit the table. I'm not in the candles.
The candle's going is crazy. We got Jason and then
y'all already know we got a king podcast legend over
here sitting next to me. I don't know what hot takes.
They don't really have. I know, like both of them

(02:10):
are like hip hop historians, so I'm really interested, So
I'm really y'all like you didn't like the little the
little note it was too much sarcasm when I said.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
I'm a romantic?

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Are you really You're gonna get to it, Jason?

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like, So, when I had the idea to have this conversation,
a bit of me was like, do I need to
bring an R and B singer in here? So maybe
there'll be part two? But I literally was like, wait,
I'm gonna sit down with two hip hop heads and
talk R and B?

Speaker 4 (02:44):
Like do these I used to work in five magazine?

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Okay, I'm aware, Okay, So then I guess. I guess
because the audience is learning some of y'all and y'all
know I had a whole music podcast where maybe y'all
hated my music text and now I'm a consumer of it,
you know what I mean. I'm a zoomer of music.
I've been that way. So I wasn't in you know,
the magazines or even blog era for me. I was

(03:08):
a sports blogger. So Jason during Vibe, though, wasn't that okay?
And let me tell you what I remember about Vibe.
I remember Vibe being for rappers and being for only
maybe the women in R and B.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
I don't remember Vibe and Black Entertainment.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, but I don't remember Vibe highlighting R and B like.

Speaker 4 (03:32):
That right about Christian, Remember that.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
Was the Vibe was the R and B portal you
know for R and B and then because you already
had the Source magazine in double XL that covered that.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
But Vibe was like the other side.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Chris Brown's first national magazine cover.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
They did.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Vibe did cover hip hop, but it was definitely more
R and B, at least from my lands.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
It was more.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Okay, no, that though, that's major.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
That's formed people form the Vibe Awards. So I gave away.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I guess that's my thing. Right, So as soon as
I google Vibe Magazine, it's Jah Rule, jay Z Bust
the rhymes hold on t I I'm I'm literally if
you google it today, yeah literally, you have all of
the rappers on the whole front row outside of Fantasia.

(04:26):
And then yes, you had the Brandy cover. But if
I'm looking at these Vibe covers, first off, not y'all
John B. But as I'm saying, there was a right in
I'm still talking about. I don't think that R and
B got that look in terms of even print mind
you not sure if you were over there. Giving Kesha

(04:46):
a fucking cover is crazy. This is I want you
to go ahead and denounce that right now, because you
just said black entertainment voices in black entertainment and to
give a white woman a fucking cover is insane. By
the way, in terms in terms of in terms of

(05:06):
R and B, you do have Beyonce on here, which
we'll get into, Destiny's Child, Mary Jay, Fantasia, Mariah Carey
like to be fair too, not much love if any
two male R and B at all? And so yes,

(05:28):
you you did give you you did say, I'm telling you.
I'm telling you now I'm looking maybe those didn't make
it too digital like to where it got scanned and
put into the archiveal movie. You are very I mean
you are.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
I would say that the maggot.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
And so what point is I got an R and
B bag and let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well what I'm excited to hear it. But that's where
I guess when we talk about like the the erasure
of of R and B in terms of the biggest
hits like that, we can go back to having and
the impact that we know it had on us even
as children singing songs that were completely inappropriate. I think

(06:15):
in terms of media, where we're sitting here questioning is
it dead now? The fact that I want to lean
on too is the fact that it never really got
the pedestal even within our culture that I think it deserved.
And so we'll get into that. But you coming from
Vibe magazine US knowing source was for hip hop, knowing
that even King really highlighted more video vixen's than it

(06:40):
did anything regarding real music, but hip hop videos essentially, well,
I guess, but it highlighted the women, not even really
the artists. And so where we want to take this conversation, Jason?
I love that now the audience knows you worked at
Vibe and did not contribute to Keisha Kesha whatever you having. No,

(07:00):
you know what's crazy? Her name is k e Sha.
She probably specifically was Kesha because there's no way she
could come out and name herself Keisha.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
There was just no fucking way.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
She removed that I on purpose if that was even
not her name. But where are we going with the
direction of this episode?

Speaker 4 (07:18):
So what do you think is the status. What's the
state of R and B right now? According to Mandy,
you know what I'm.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Going to lean into even what we just saw at
the BET Awards last month, the fact that we had
really great vocalists from the male area in hip hop,
and we'll get into the not hip hop, but R
and B. I think it was very telling that in
twenty twenty five the BT Hip Hop Awards leaned heavily

(07:46):
into the early two thousands on what that music hit
for the state that we're in now. I'm excited about it.
I just think it's interesting because and maybe it's the
streaming era to blame, and we'll get into that, but
radio and outside you're not hearing the R and B.

(08:07):
You're just not mind you. R and B used to
welcome you into the club a little bit, or was
at least the last twenty minutes of the night to
get y'all ready for your one night's stands, which crazy
knowing that casual sex is a thing now and were
not getting out of the clubs to the slow jams anymore. No,
I don't think it's dead, and I don't want to

(08:27):
have the is R and B dead conversation because I
think that's a five year old conversation started by Diddy
and now to see he probably only did it so
you could drop that love album. I'm not mad at it.
I just think to where it should relate to us,
the classics, like where we had classic albums, which we'll
get into too. I don't think we've gotten that for

(08:51):
quite some time. I do think it's also interesting too
that Leon's mutt has literally been I don't know how.
It's just nuggeting bro. That's one came out like a
year and a half ago. I felt like that.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
Do you remember the deem Dash used to say that
hip hop was cracked and R and B was coke,
and one sells fast and one sells slow. It's funny
I got to use hip hop stuff to talk about
R and B.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
There we go.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
But you know, but R and B is slow burning, right,
like interesting, it takes a while to get there, so
the Leon Thomas like, I don't think it's that much
of an aberration. I think that that's what slow burns
actually have slow burns.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
But I think there's reasons for that show I get
into it.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
I think there's hip hop and R and B goes
through like these ebbs and flows of dominance. What dictates
that is the music executives paying attention to that type
of talent.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Right.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
So, I think for a long time we've been in
copycat culture and R and B, and it was stagnant, right,
And it's been a thirst and yearned for two thousand
even nineties sound. Hence, while we have contemporary radio stations
popping up all over the place playing nineties and two
thousands R and B and hip yep, because at some

(10:11):
point there wasn't a full effective transition into now. So
we go back to the classics. We go back Mary J.
Blige is selling out right. Beyonce, thank God for her.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Right, Well, no, no, no, no, no, Let's be very clear,
and it is going to do not bring Beyonce up
in this conversation because her last her last album was country.
The album before that was was dance, right, and I
think she has become even in her records lean. And
I've said this, by the way, I love Beyonce, she

(10:45):
has gotten so far from R and B. She is
no longer to me even considered R and B. Like
you have your dangerously in love even right after that
you have Sasha fears Beata eight. Those songs were even
more upbeats to where they were more pop records than
R and B.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
But she sings, Okay, But I don't.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Think singing makes you R and B. No, no, no, no,
you can't do that. Singing doesn't make you R and B.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
But to the point, okay, that's fear and and that's why.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
The black artist.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Okay, rhythm and blues, yes, but out of the hallmarks
in me, some hallmarks of what's R and B?

Speaker 1 (11:16):
What do you mean hallmarks?

Speaker 4 (11:17):
So he said it's singing, and you're saying it's not singing.
Mentioned it as an aside, Mandy, you were mentioning it
like there's breakup yearning? Yeah, what's R and B music?

Speaker 1 (11:28):
I think? I think R and B music to me
is something with I think it leads to to two things.
I think it leads to either you being horny or
you being sad. And I think that there has to
be the emotional element to R and B because once
you get to even so, yes, Mary J. Blige is
it is a R and B singer. However, when you

(11:50):
get to let's get it crunk up on, like when
you get to the happier elements of it, it becomes
more like dance.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Music, or it becomes but that's still an element of
R and B. Yeah, rhythm still.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, But I don't I don't know if certain songs
sound R and B. Once you get to where you're dancing,
I think the emotion is taken out of it, and
it's probably why we.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Like our R and B artistic R and B.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
But I think it's why we like our R and B.

Speaker 4 (12:18):
You got motion, like you want your you want your
rhythmic to be slow.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Maybe that's what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, okay, okay,
but that's the sad element a lot of the times
she's singing.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
But she's so it's the emotion to it, of course.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
So that's what I said.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Do we get joasy all that and jojo.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
The begging and yearning, the horny music, That's what I'm saying,
like it's horny sex music, or it's emotionally led by
a relationship through line or plot essentially. I think once
you get into once you get into even the additions
of adding either the hip hop verses and things like that,
it becomes a little tricky. But I think emotion is

(13:04):
where R and B lands, which is which is where
it leads you to feel something about a relationship or
feel something in your crotch one or the other. I
think as soon as it becomes music to party two,
then you go to the other genres. To me, that's
how I like, that's how identify it got to make
you feel like something.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
If you.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Something, you gotta make you feel something.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
In your heart.

Speaker 4 (13:33):
That's R and B to me.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
And what about you?

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Then it's definitely definitely feeling of of of.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Relationship talk and yeah and bedroom talk.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's there's also so what would
you consider I mean, we don't get a lot of it,
you know, songs about societal stuff or whatever. But what
about those moments that we do have, you know, like
what's going on? What's going on right?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
What's going on with all the ship? The fucking nine
to eleven song?

Speaker 3 (14:06):
Nosic No, Like like in the seventies when when they
was going to the Civil Rights movie there was R
and B they were they were that was.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Look at me. I love it?

Speaker 2 (14:25):
So no, no, no, but I had Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
But but but those songs, I mean, we don't, like
I said, we don't get a lot of it, But
what are those categorized?

Speaker 1 (14:37):
But emotion, nigga, the plight of the plight of being
black like but still em but it's not even pop.
It's still emotion. And and then we'll get into that too,
because a lot of the artists over the last I
would say three to five years, specifically maybe in the
streaming era, there's been a lot of black artists who
have come out and almost denounced the fact that they're

(14:59):
being put into the genre of R and B just
because they're black. And then there's also the conversation of
the John Bees, the Eman's, the the people who weren't
black them identifying as R and B and whether we
accepted them or not and being so like, you know
what I mean, I think the only two white people
that I think overall we've quote unquote invited to the

(15:19):
cookout in R and B would be John B and Robin.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
Thick as men as men, Tin.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
But yeah, no, no, that's women. Know, Tina, you're definitely
aging yourself. But and then to be fair, even though
even though she has I would say, even though she's
getting black and okay, okay, but then let's be fair.
Then so what does because if you're gonna put a

(15:48):
Dell in there? Not but what I'm saying that we're
gonna put Yeah, you can't put a dell in there,
and I'm gonna.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
You would put Amy wine Houses? R and B.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yes, soul R.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
But see that's soul that I guess there's I guess
there's Jonath.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Okay, No, I'm saying it's R and B soul.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Can you tell me?

Speaker 4 (16:12):
What?

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Can you tell me? What made you put Adele in
R and B?

Speaker 4 (16:17):
Asked?

Speaker 3 (16:18):
I just threw out a name to ask about to
cook out Adele Amy wine House.

Speaker 4 (16:24):
What's your difference between them?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Rhythm?

Speaker 5 (16:26):
Mmmm?

Speaker 2 (16:28):
She qualifies for.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
The Can I also say this is crazy? She is
often described y'all gonna hate this ship. Hold on, this
is this is just what Adele. Adele is often described
as blue eyed soul in R and B.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
I never heard that, nigga.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
You never heard so.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Like, yes, okay, but there's no Elvis is that we're going.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
To I was more like an eighties thing. No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
Notes Hall and Oates is blue eyed soul, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Like that is cool.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
BG's blue eyed soul.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
You know, by the way, here's the interesting thing too,
when you add soul in there, and and of course
R and B. Traditionally it's characterized by strong vocals, emotional lyrics,
and oftentimes a blend of gospel and blues. So that's
also for you guys. That a lot of things we'll

(17:28):
get into. Okay, So where are we going from this?

Speaker 4 (17:32):
So the reason I was asking you to describe it, Mandy,
is because I have a theory that I may get
you literally in like two minutes. But okay, the reason
I was describing asking you to talk about R and B,
and you said slow and it's something that you feel
in your heart emotional right and emotional right. So I
know you like Pretty Ricky.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
First off, By the way, Hot Take out the Gate.
Pretty Ricky Blue Stars is a classic album. We will
get into it. It is one of the most underrated
as well albums.

Speaker 5 (18:02):
In Florida of all time across the US of a
global So grind on me, yeah, oh no.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
No, no, let's be fair clear, yes, keep going.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
So uh pause that for a second. Now, to you
a king, what's who's who personifies R and B?

Speaker 1 (18:20):
T you?

Speaker 4 (18:21):
Or what's an album that personifies it? By the way.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
No, no, no, that pretty Ricky doesn't it doesn't know you
jumped around there, because now now you make it seem
like I've done a pretty Ricky personifies R and B.
It's only for him.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Okay, everybody, this question is for a king, not for Mandy, Okay, because.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
I personifies R and B when you think what's an
R and B?

Speaker 4 (18:44):
So for me, I would say.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
Like I'm gonna say all the things I'm right said
the album DiAngelo Brown Sugar.

Speaker 4 (18:53):
Okay, okay, ready, so a King, let's see brown Sugar.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
You're trying to describe likes a different type of senson.
That's not even that DiAngelo Joe.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
First, I aint going to hold you know, all of
them will make you dick jump or you puts it away.

Speaker 4 (19:15):
What year did you graduate from high school? Come on?

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Are you doing this?

Speaker 1 (19:18):
I'm doing it.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
It's gonna pull a point. It's a fairy I got.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
I'm gonna just say nigga sa late nineties, Nigga perfect.

Speaker 4 (19:25):
Brown Sugar came out in ninety five, Mandy, what did
you graduate fro high school?

Speaker 1 (19:29):
Two thousand and nine?

Speaker 4 (19:30):
All right?

Speaker 1 (19:31):
And so what year did two thousand and five?

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yesterday? But that Nigga's old.

Speaker 4 (19:37):
So but my point is I think I think a
lot of times when people talk about R and B
and how they center it and what they think is
like traditional or real or bring back or whatever, they're
they're talking to stuff that's like related to like their
high school college.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Why why I disagree with that? Though I disagree with that.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
Because it's not watched.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
No, I'm highly enough, I highly disagree with that because
I think that if we really lean into one of
the best like albums of all time where I was
I'm not saying no, no, no, not best time, but but
are just no just the frame of reference, then too,
if we get into it, I think are like R Kelly,

(20:18):
Like when I think essentially R and B, I literally
see that black and Red album with the silhouette like that.
That is that to me, R Kelly is to be
the personification of R and B essentially, but.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
Less personification and much emotional attachment. Like but.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Oh, I mean, I think a lot of people's.

Speaker 4 (20:39):
Reference is even to be because because you're remembering how
you felt, and R and B was tapping into that
when when people were having their first crushes and when
they were thinking about having sex for the first time.
And so I think a lot of times when people equivolate,
like when they draw their comparisons for what they think
is real R and B or or if they want
to say, like Leon Thomas is not.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
First time I was fucking and five. First off, give
me some fucking grace here. I wasn't fucking in O five.
And to be fair, it's why I do listen to
Even Confessions is a different album for me today than
it was. Like when Confessions came out, I was in
middle school, so I still believe that that is a
classic fucking album. But it came out when I was
in the seventh grade, and so the way he was

(21:22):
singing about having a baby on the way and all
that shit, I wasn't dealing with none of that shit.
But again, still had the emotions, the two emotions that
I said for all of these. So I'm going to
debunk your theory in the connection between how we view
these albums as R and B or not based on
how old were you.

Speaker 4 (21:40):
It's a connection even usher that album. There's nothing on
that album that I bet you feel like you feel
grind on me.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
No, no, no, no. By the way, by the way, I
want you to know that grind on Me is actually
probably my least favorite record on that Blue Stars album,
Like and I can't even say age ain't nothing but
a number being one of my favorite ones because the
time we're in god damn, that can't even fucking like that.
But playhouse. We can play house and lay you on

(22:14):
the couch. And they even said hunch to.

Speaker 4 (22:17):
Get a little closer, juicy, call me.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
If you need some loving for tonight. I'm sorry, do
you even know any of these songs?

Speaker 2 (22:26):
I do, Okay, I don't, so.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
You know, the next time we're in the car, I'm
playing Pretty.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Ricky, but I don't listen to Pretty Ricky.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
They're not in my playlist. But I used to get
Pretty Ricky by way of BT, like watching the videos
and seeing that stuff.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
You never just turned.

Speaker 4 (22:42):
On Blue Stars after midnight shout out.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
That wasn't even they wasn't even after midnight like that
they was I shot in when You'll be Mike, it
came on. But I just I think we're gonna get
into of course, the R and B gods, y'all. I
just want to want y'all to put some respect on
Pretty Ricky. BlueStars as a classic album as and maybe

(23:08):
only people who are born between ninety and ninety three
will fill me on this or maybe only I'm curious
that even if it's only a Florida thing, but that
album bro straight through listen. And I think when we
get into even R and B albums underrated, overrated, and
how we identify what's a classic and what's not. I

(23:29):
think skip like non skip value is a thing.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
I'm gonna go and listen to that album.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Please report me.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
That's the other episode.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, I need you to. I need apparently I'm given
homework to a king every guy because I'm trying to
bring the youth back.

Speaker 4 (23:45):
Into but many made a good point for people of
a certain era that's a classic to them, and that's
that's the larger point that I want to make because
I think R and B it's emotional music. To have
the emotional attachment, whether it's your heart or your crotch,
it also hairs to a time in your life. And
I think when we think about like what people want
from R and B, you know there are people kind

(24:08):
of reaching back to the youth, right like what I
wanted from R and B when I was young and
singles different than what I want from R and B
as a married man, right Like, maybe I want now
it's more commitment. Maybe back then I wanted Jodasy, Right.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Now you want jagged edge.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
That's funny, you know, you know what's crazy about that? Though?
To me, I think the nineties had the biggest influence
on R and B. And I think we're all going
trying to reach back to have that feeling again, because
even when I sit and think, I mean, of course
we had the boy groups, like even Pretty Ricky is
probably the last of the boy groups that was two

(24:42):
thousand and five, But if we go back to the
one Twelves, the Jodases, the Black Street, like all of
that was a completely different feel. But it's also what
pop is missing in that group era, Like don't we
no longer have the groups? And what's crazy is too,
I do feel like the women and we can get
into that topic. The women of the nineties and early

(25:05):
two thousands in the eighties, if we're including Whitney, gave
us vocals and that's what we're missing today. We're seeing
that we're not even having it, like like the live performances,
we don't have the girls singing anymore, like the only
bitchy'll here really singing and this is gonna be uh

(25:25):
is old girl from Wicked Harry and Jennifer Cynthia and
Jennifer Hudson. The only girls that we are getting singing
the fun respect name more.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
Talk to him, you talk money long, No, you want
to know the way?

Speaker 1 (25:52):
We just get a silence there, calm down. First off,
Jasmine Jasminy Sullivan. I do want to add, however, Jasmine
Sullivan came out while I was in middle or high school.
When is that your car? A Lions, Tigers and Bears?
So to me, she's hotels, Hotels, Hotels just came out. Yes,
but so I'm not including I'm talking about the new

(26:14):
era of the last of R and B artist. That's
why I went some money longsess someone new like I'm
thinking of lex but Ari Lennox. I'll be honest with you.
I think she's more She's more soul R and B.
So she's definitely Yeah, I feel her as being someone
that's more. So. I think she's she's incredible too, and

(26:35):
she's great performing live. But she also has a distinct voice,
which I like, I'm talking about who we're seeing out here,
like the fact that Doja Cat is actually a rapper
but has more like R and B hits over the
last couple of years. Then R and B Stars says
something too, But.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
That's that's that's how the industry is trending because of
things the.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Powers that be have.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
You know, they're only going to cater toward the demand
when we create the demand, which we're doing right now.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
But I think I think also the demand is also
the technology of it all too right, because songs are changing, right,
Like I don't know how powers me are kind of
goofs to me right, Like I think sometimes it's like
because we're doing streaming, because things are being programmed, I
think like songs are shorter so you don't see bridges,
and that's really like.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Where they get their vocal ability. Well well, also we're
not seeing the bridges because the bitches can't hit the notes.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
Yeah, but they're not even giving a chance to try
to do it. And then even to your point, manby
a really good one like with the groups that that
that that was the thing, songs were made differently because
it's like four people got to get some vocals off.
So like you're gonna get this one like pre bridge,
you're gonna get this pre chorus. We're gonna all do
this part together, so you're here's some harmony because there's
not the construction, like the sound of its changed.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
I think the content, I think I think that would
only be fair to say if we didn't see bulk
gods actually try to bring the group thing back and
it didn't work. So TGT like we just had TGT
essentially come.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
They not come. But I feel like it was ego
and it was like the whole like genuine kind of
like to quote a king, malarkey of it all.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
First of all, let's be very let's be let's be
clear with it. It's why the podcast groups ain't liast
and it's while I'm sitting here with two super producers,
like the ego of it all, like we're never gonna
see groups again because it's not something that I think
actually works long term, and so the investment that it
costs to literally pay for three to five people. Problem

(28:34):
with that many people. If we if we think about
how the A and RS have pretty much become this extinct,
if we talk about how much touring actually costs with
the new inflation of the economy, Like unfortunately music is
gonna take the hit from a scale of groups because
the investment is so much higher and people ain't working
for free no more. Like to even see them back
in the day, what the Backstreet Boys?

Speaker 4 (28:56):
What?

Speaker 1 (28:56):
What? What TLC was even making?

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Know who is making money?

Speaker 2 (29:01):
R and B music you don't.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
See but while we don't see them touring either.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
If you was a starter of a group, like you know, manager,
I think the max you're probably going to.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Do three three people.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
It's three right, and it's going to cost it's going
to cost so much. And the people that care enough,
that's supposed to care enough, the A and rs, they
don't have the time.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, becauld they want to be celebrities too.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, I agree. Yes, it's tricky. It's tricky out here.
It's tricky. But I think that that's why it was
kind of that's kind of why we got away from it.
But I want to go back to because I want
to ask the two of you when it comes to
R and B, especially because it was mentioned here about
the vocal ability, is that also a change though I
feel it is a change across genders, both men and women.

(29:53):
The way, we we don't have vocalists today compared to
who we had in the nineties or two thousands and today.
So like we had the Genuines, we had the Ushers,
and Usher is still coming back after twenty years, but
I think his residency helped him there. But it's different
like today we have and I do believe Leon Thomas

(30:13):
can sing. But then we have like the people who
I'm questionable, I'm gonna name them, and I'm just gonna
say it right here. I think one of the most
overrated R and B artists of the last decade Bryson Tiller.
I also think that of who you said earlier, Bretfaiaz,
I don't think that they're strong vocalists. I don't think that.

(30:34):
It's like the fact that, by the way, I'm just
gonna say, one of the most overrated albums is Bryson
Tiller's first.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
Abby Come Ones.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Wait No, I didn't was that Wait? Was that on yo?
Because people will, oh, no, let's do it right now,
let's do it right now while we're talking about this thing. No, no, no,
let's do it right now, because I think it's gonna
it's gonna anchor our conversation. And where we think views are.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
Right now, but also have a question for you about
what you're saying though, Yes, and this is me like
not even trying to be gray air or whatever. One
Male R and B and women's R and B is
way different because male's R and B has been fucked
up by hip hop, right, but again because it's been
fucked up by hip hop and their song deliveries one moment.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Can you explain that?

Speaker 4 (31:18):
So, for instance, so Bryson Tiller, right, Bryson Tiller, back
in the day, you would say like, oh, they're doing
like scat singing right like, and now they do like
this like pseudo singing right where it's like Bryson Tiller
is kind of really rapping, but it's like loosely rapping,
not quite singing. And I think he's the kind of

(31:38):
the poster child for it, but there's a lot of
other guys that do it. I honestly don't know if
if I use him, I know you can fire back
on me right away, but I honestly don't know if
song composition and the way that they're making these songs
is making it so like I don't even really know
if they can sing or not right, like they're in key,
which is the first part of being singing like they're

(31:58):
in key. But it's not like bryceon Taylor is even
writing songs in a way where he can do it.
And then obviously there's elements of like church training to
go into it that guys don't have any moment. But
sometimes I.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Just don't church to hear the story. I'm gonna choir.
We niggas don't know a Bible, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (32:26):
But so it's like Bryson Taylor party next door? Uh Uheremiah?
Uh you know, Eric Bellinger even like you why you face?

Speaker 1 (32:36):
But like Jeremiah is what we do out of him?
I mean Jeremi.

Speaker 4 (32:39):
It's a good one.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
I like Jeremiah. But we saw on the verses, I mean.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
We saw it.

Speaker 4 (32:45):
We saw even October London, like he wears a suit,
he sings in a way where you think it's classic.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Does he really have a voice like that?

Speaker 4 (32:52):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
I like him, so I'm gonna I don't know if
he has that voice.

Speaker 4 (33:02):
That voice, I don't know if it's their talent or
it's just the way that they make their songs.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Now, okay, and now I'm gonna I'm gonna be a
bit problematic here. So while none of those guys really
have the voice, unfortunately they have what the Leon Thomas's
the Oh, let me think of of of a good
list of really good vocalists right now, because I think

(33:28):
the issue that we're seeing now as well, and it's
kind of what we kind of leaned into in terms
of black film. I think it becomes hard for male
R and B stars to get the looks that they
should be getting if they don't have the physical appearance
which we see for women in hip hop, which is
what kind of we see with women in R and
B but not really. But I think for R and

(33:50):
B stars, essentially from the nineties and early two thousands,
there was a look women wanted to fuck them. I
think that we're missing that now because we're wanting to
get back to vocalists. The vocalists that we currently have
don't necessarily have the look if we think about it,
and so I think that there was a recipe for

(34:13):
what that looked like in the nineties and early two
thousands that has completely just been lost, and it could be, yes,
the way we listen to music now, it could be
all of those factors. But I do think that the
recipe that we had back then, knowing that we can
no longer have the groups leaning into the looks and
the vocals. Right now, I feel like we get one

(34:34):
or the other, but we're not getting both. We don't
have the sexy guy really, even the thug R and
B where you o Mario Tray songs like no one
wanted to. I know I'm sitting here with too much,
but nobody wanted to.

Speaker 6 (34:53):
Fucking that because where he's at today, he was never
attractive because I feel like I feel like women were
more attracted to voice vocal ward too though No, no,
like very very white. If you listen to the other
women of them, they were just like Google, got got

(35:13):
over this guy, right, recipe.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
No, even when Mandy, when you mentioned earlier with the
BT Awards, when they did Secret Garden, like Secret Garden
was Verry White, James Ingram Elder Barge BT on Sage,
they had Roll James Lucky Day and it's like this
song had voices right like no, no, no, they did voices.
They did those two guys. I think they're both dope.

(35:38):
I don't think they have distinct voices where I'm like, oh,
I see why they're doing this update. Yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Think it's it's it's interesting because so we saw the
shift happen, I would say, in the mid early two thousands, right,
And I want to use this as an example. No shade,
but boy, should this nigga have been a way ger
star than he was? Mind you super big but Neo.

(36:04):
Neo had the best records. But again, back in the
day when you had to be looked at as fuckable
or someone that the women wanted, brought them Fadora's and
the and the forehead and that.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
It will he danced too much too.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
No, no, no, no no, I disagree because we loved
Mario dancing. We loved we loved Chris Browndan.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
He didn't make to people music.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
I'm not gonna lie. Mario was right there. Mario was
was cute, but did not he was Yeah, he had him.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
They they didn't meet the trajectory that they probably but
I think.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Because of looks and unfortunately, like because Mario, let's be
very clear, sang down. We just saw what he does.
Let's also be very clear, Neo sings the fuck down
and has some of the best records of probably any
R and B star. I'm not gonna lie, he's probably
one of my underrated as well. Like so we got
Bryson Tiller, Niggas is overrated. I think Neo is actually

(36:54):
someone who is and I hate that he's being overshadowed
with his personal life right now. I think that Neo
is one of the most underrated R and B performers
and stars of our generation. And I don't think he's
going to get his just due unfortunately until he's gone,
which I hate that. And mind you, he has the athlades,
but I don't think he won the awards. I don't

(37:14):
think he got the looks, but I honestly think too
it was because of his look, which is maybe why execs.
He talks about how most execs wanted to keep him
as the pen as the writer, as he was one
of those like the Dream who came from writing a
lot of records and then becoming an.

Speaker 4 (37:29):
Artist, even for Sexy Love, which is like his big one.
He talks a lot about how jay Z picked Hype Williams, Yes,
because he picked his outfit to try to get him close, to.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Try to get him closer. You see what I had.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
I was about to say what happened with Mario in Neo.
There was something I needed to see something that year
we're looking at twenty twenty two thousand and six.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Well, y're you.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
That was an issue.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
But but then let's have some dude. Yes, are we
blaming also the trajectory because.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
We could all right, now parents.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Well not only appearance Chris Brown complete halt in nine
because of the Rihanna ship or that was eight and
that was a nine. All I know is it was
like my last year of high school. Yeah, crazy right,
crazy right, But I think that that's almost where we
saw this ship too. Even kind of Mark.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
He had two years because run it came out in seven.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
You see what I mean, he came out when he
was sixteen years old. That all happened when he was
like nineteen and so I think what we also saw was,
for whatever reason, and maybe because we could blame hip
hop again, we saw the era of thug thug R
and B becoming a thing. And that's when the R
and B artists did the ship where they wasn't where R.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
And B can you tell us throw out some names?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
I'll tell you this. R and B.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
I mean you said the Jahim.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, I think Drew Hill, I think Trey songs that
nigga came out just got to make it with a
little broke ass. He was like in his first video,
he's like this struggling, like like not even struggling because
he worked a blue collar job, but he was like
the lawyer's absolutely, boy does thug R and B.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
He got a little soul in him.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
No, no, no, the fact that he at l chigia, what
do we do? Like if youre throwing some signs while
you singing and throwing and shouting out your city. Yes,
it's thug R and B.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
That's gangst the R.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
And bated he predated by.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
So that you were talking about the they have to
have the look and everything. Bobby Oh, he's he's the archetype.
He's the archetype of type rn B.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, and the precursor.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
To let me be very clear, I don't think I don't
think Bobby Brown becomes as big as he is, even
as a solo R and B are is without first
being a part of that group. Because there were other
lookers in that group. Help he wanted a looker in
and then and then he attached himself to fucking Winnie Houston.

Speaker 5 (40:11):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Around whatever, here you go another show.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
What came first? We're not doing that, So what's what's after?

Speaker 4 (40:22):
So if there's a certain look that you're talking about,
like the handsome and.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, that's so that's the Yeah, we know that.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
And then there's thug R and B, is there anything
after thug R and B? Because doug ar and B
is a new look to it. There's a certain look
and and girls still want them. They have their wife
beaters on in their braids. Is there a look after
thug R and B to you where you're like, they
got the voice and girls want to You.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Know what's crazy? I think that we're in a place
right now. Oh not me, always wanting to blame patriarchy
and homophobia, but I think I think we're in a
place right now where the like even I'm thinking of
how Roe James dresses and how Luke James dressed, and
how even who's the other one, Who's who's my guy?

(41:08):
Lucky day? Lucky Day with? So I think we're in
this real hyper masculine era where I think they're confused
with how they want to present themselves or what even
women specifically their audience. Black women identify as as sexy right,
Like back in the nineties and early two thousands, when
we had kind of the thug look. Essentially they were

(41:30):
wearing baggy ass jeans, jerseys like Jacket Edge, had fucking
damn near fucking jerseys flipped to the back in almost
all of their videos, or they were dancing in leather.
I think we have this idea of black men trying
to hold onto their masculinity so much that there's even
a way in which we don't know how to distinguish
what we like as women unfortunately as the consumer. Right,

(41:52):
so what is gone? The uniform is gone, but now
it's like, okay, you're either wearing silk blouses, which now
leads into are you as masculine as we want you
to be? Also, because you're not even as attractive. Niggas
don't even got abs no more, so we just watching
you on a Chloey blouse, or we have them looking
like the arts He broke thugs.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
Those guys in that era weren't wasn't going to Paris
fashion part okay, and now guys are doing it because
they have access to that thing now.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
So it's like, well, not only more access. Let's be
very clear, that's where the fuck they're seeing they checks.
It's fashion and modeling. They're not seeing there in music anymore.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
The divers I would employ you to consider at some point,
if Calvin Klin come knocking, you might see Jason roriguez on.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
It's soho with the Calvin Khan underweel on. You know
my laptop, listen, I do it for the right check.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Do y'all feel what I'm saying or do y'all agree
or disagree? Kind of In my view, I.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
Like the idea of the uniform and the presentation because
now I'm thinking about like if I see somebody in
Jordan's male singer and Jordan's I'm like, it takes away
you need hard bottoms or something that there's a uniform
element of it that I do. I think that helps
with like the delivery and presentation to let you know,
like it's that type of R and B that you're
talking about, like I'm begging for you and you can

(43:08):
see it and you can hear.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
It, but it's something that is and I don't know
if we've really honed down on what that we know
what the uniform looked like when it was successful, but
I think that's even a part of today that's an issue.
Like right rappers, you know a rapper from them all
the way, like we've the female rappers. Male rappers, you
know them from them. When you see pop stars, they
have the ways in which they dress. And I think

(43:31):
for me, it's been interesting to see the R and B,
not even for the women. Like so I saw Keisha
Cole perform. When Keisha Cole performed at Dreamville, she had
on like a two piece like workout as leisure outfit,
and then she was in a whole courset for the
BET Awards. I think we're seeing.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
The streamefield when she had the joint where people said.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
The diaper yes, yes, yes, And so the look is gone,
the vocals are gone, the attractiveness is gone. Everything that
we could that.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
There's no defined look anymore.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
There's not a defined look. And then I think, unfortunately,
like we said too, in terms of radio play, value
is not there. Streaming is quick. You you listen and
then you forget it unless you're into playlists, and then
we're not hearing these records outside anymore unless you go
to which is why it's so popular. I think for
our generations, right, I say thirty five and up, maybe

(44:27):
even thirty and up. One of the best nights to
go out is R and B nights. You have to
go to an R and B night that actually plays
those records, because otherwise you're not hearing them.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Which was because of the lack of R and B.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
You start seeing R and B night, you start seeing
it like girls love Karaoke.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
All of that is stammed off of the fact that
this is a little genre that we fucking love that
brings us and makes us feel good, feel sad, feels horny,
and we don't get it anywhere else in our scope
right now, and there's that lack of those same feelings
coming out in modern day R and B. Because Wallet

(45:10):
is a great record, Baby I'm a dog Goma, But
like it's literally now we're listening to the niggas telling
us they're not ship while back in the day they
was at least begging us to forgive they ain't ship asses.
Like now it's even Brent Fayaz. A lot of it
is toxic, like a lot of them. And that's just

(45:31):
the song that's Hitten right now.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
I just think that he even in that song, I
have to go too off.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
But I think he was just identifying an issue.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
And I think I think a lot of that like
Drake effect. I think Drake is more, but I think
he's had more influence on R and B and the
rap and that's what you get. You don't get Bryce
and Teller without Drake, you don't get Thomas, you don't
get Party That without those.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
As you mentioned, there are those guys R and B X. Yes,
so is Drake RB No.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
I think Drake does R and B music.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
So is he R and B.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Because let's be very clear, people were asking him for
people were asking for album from him. He to me
is the he would be to me. Like I said
the same line as Beyonce, He's had a dance album,
he's had one that lean more towards afrobeat influences. He's
he's done projects that has transcended him out of one genre.

(46:31):
So I don't want to include Drake the same way
I don't want to include Beyonce. I think, once you're
an artist that is a global superstar who can literally
do an album as a whole nother genre because you
have that much control over your career, you now have
transcended out of R and B.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
You know she just put you see she pulling the paperwork,
the contract.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Listen. I need y'all to know I can talk about
more than just sucking dick. I really, I really know.
Make sure you but no, Like, these are the conversations
I really like having because after even see the thing
is ended, I live on the internet. I still listen, Like,
outside of listening to pods, I still go to music

(47:12):
and listen. I have a vinyl record player I just
put on after I went to Broadway and saw Hell's Kitchen.
I have a vinyl record player. And I was like,
now let me go back to Diary of Alice Keys, Like,
let me go back to Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
You know what's interesting.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
You mentioned that it's been a heavy increase in vinyl output.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
By the way, yeah, fuck y'all because vinyls used to
be like five dollars, ten dollars. Vinyls are seventy dollars now.
I hate it.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Like before that company, before we stopped going to that company,
we won't name it on the show, they start having
an initiative where they had all this vinyl, even the
record players crazy, and it's like unfortunate that we don't
fuck with them no more.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
But whatever, Well, it's also unfortunate that supply and demand
has went to where now even each well, the artists
are now dropping limited vinyl records right so now, because
it's a limited thing, they've now become collector's items.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
I love it and I love it, but.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
I thought that I could just go to the goddamn
record store and get me like like ten to twenty
albums and spend a couple It's been like one hundred dollars. No, no, no, no, no.
One album is like seventy dollars. Yeah, I just spent
seventy And mind you, I love it too because Jake So,
I've got all of j Cole's albums. He had a

(48:31):
special limited release of Forest Hills Drive for that anniversary
and cuping that I was just like, And by the way,
it's behind you. This is if y'all are watching this
on video, make sure y'all subscribe to the YouTube channel.
What you have behind you? I just got that in
vinyl from Vic Mensa.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
No, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Vic Mensa's the autobiography of Vic Mensa. We are not
talking about R and B. However, he has some R
and B elements to his album. He has one of
the best rap albums. Oh yeah, well come on lights please?
Oh never mind, it says Jason. Otherwise I was gonna
buy it from you. I want that, but it's it's

(49:12):
made specifically. But yeah, so back to that, I just
think where we're where we're currently at is just go by.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
Have you ever bought a CD before?

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Nigga, I'm a nineties I'm just trying to reverse I'm
reverse aging with her question. But would you would you
participate in that activity today? If they should just change
and say we're gonna buy CDs again?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Would you?

Speaker 1 (49:35):
You know? Well, for me, I'm still a part of that.
Like like for artists that I support, I go to
the iTunes app and I buy their album because that's
way more than just streaming the songs are just downloading
it to your Apple thing. So like, oh, I go
and pay my twelve ninety nine or nineteen ninety nine
for whatever album is coming out, Like I'm actually going

(49:56):
to the iTunes so I bought, uh, like I buy
J Cole albums. Uh for the artists when I was
doing uh see. The thing is any artists that I
genuinely liked her or enjoyed their project, especially because sometimes
we got to listen to it beforehand. I was like, oh, nah,
you deserve I'm going to support you and spend my
ten dollars. And unfortunately, like we're at that era, which

(50:18):
is why they don't have the money that they they
once had, You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Really, so, I feel like I got a clear diagnosis
from you on mail R and B. Yeah, is it
just as clear with women? Did you give us a
breakdown of Yeah? I mean I mean, are or are
they flourishing? Because I feel like women R and B
is flourishing a lot more.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
I think they're flourishing a little.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
Stars are bigger.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Yes, you know. You know what's crazy about that? I
actually want to add to the fact that I think
you know how you said hip hop was essentially a
quote unquote like a deterrent for male R and B acts.
I feel like the lack of collaborations with women R
and B and hip hop is why we're seeing the decline.

(51:03):
If we look at the early two thousands, like we
had the Alicia Keys, like right beside an Eve, we
had a Shanti and Jah rule, We had a lot
of the I mean we had the Little Mo. Little
Mo really was only spoken about the way she was
at the Arab.

Speaker 4 (51:21):
Homegirls name what's her name? I forget about you?

Speaker 1 (51:28):
No, no, Well, and he did also he did some
amazing collase with Miguel Oh my god. But I think
that we've missed that collaboration crossover like we had the
Kelly Rowlands and Nelly, like we had the Usher and
Alicia Keys. Well, those are two singers, but we're not.
We're not acknowledging Jo on this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

(51:50):
We're not going to do that. And we're not going
to talk about Yeah, now I'm about to be petty.
We're not going to talk about two studs collaborating because
that's what they are. We're just not talking about Ja Cole,
not Jackole, but jack Queeze right now on this. Well,
he pisses me off and how he out here treating
my friend? So this be a bias? You feel me?
And you want to know what's crazy about that too?

(52:12):
He was actually so when he got with with DeAndre,
we argued because he he self proclaimed himself as the
king of R and B and I think he sounds
like this, I hate how he sings. I think he
sings through his nose. To me, his vocals aren't vocaling
to me, he doesn't get naked enough. He doesn't have

(52:33):
the sex appeal. I think so for me, all of
those things that I.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
Think you now he projects.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Well, nigga, So I'm allowed to spoke.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
When I sing aloud, don't make you us a vocalist.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
And so when I think of like, but that's what
I'm saying, But you're going back to like still attractive
looking men, like genuine DiAngelo like. There was an attractiveness
to them. There was a sex appeal, there was a
vocal ability that, which is why I don't associate him
to that.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
I'm gonna throw out a name, not for sex appeal,
but just for I believe he has ranged.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
By the way, look at y'all bringing it back to niggas.
He asked me about the women, and now you bringing
it back to me.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
I'm sorry, I didn't mean. I only did that because
I think I think they're great.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
I'm not gonna lie. I think they're great. Who we
have currently is great, but I think that they're only
it's crazy because Coco Jones, I absolutely love and Coco
Jones sold out so many of her venues to where
she had to write a post and say, hey, guys,
wish the Label or Wish Live Nation put me in
bigger venues. But R and B acts aren't able to

(53:42):
really even do the bigger rooms. Like I've been seeing
el Varner. She's been touring around the city wineries for
the last couple of years. Melanie FIONI, Melanie Fiona is
the same way, and I think I mean money long.
She did a phenomenal job opening up for Chris Brown
on the last tour summer, Walker's opening up this year
for the Breezy Bowl. I think it's just interesting because

(54:04):
we're not seeing those headlined women tours unless they're attached
to a mega superstar, a rapper like Kendrick. Even though
Cia did go on her own arena tour last year,
which was phenomenal.

Speaker 4 (54:18):
What she took two out, it was like Mary lam A.
This is like three years ago.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
It was like Mary l Ay, and I thought it
was interesting. Even I just went to jenae I Eko's
uh something hour Glass tour, but she had she had tink,
she had coy Leray and I forgot the other opener act.
But I think it's just I don't know. I just
think it's interesting how the R and B bills have

(54:42):
to be multiple people or legacy acts like and it's
why we're still getting the n vogues and the escapes
and those still touring and doing things because those are
our vocalists.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
Well, if you had to curate a tour, Oh, if
I had to curate it, what would be.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Wait for R and.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
R and B women, Mandy Fest? Did Mandy Fest selectively
ignorant R.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
And B R and B women? You know what's crazy?
It would be it would be something similar to what
we're seeing with the Millennial Tour with those acts. So
I think I would do.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
But give me give me a give me a headliner, oh,
a pre headliner and then two opening acts. Just give
me four full the two opening acts, who's the setup
and then who's the headliner?

Speaker 1 (55:30):
If I'm doing like a legacy like kind of what
I want to do, I think opening I would put
Ari Lennox, Coco Jones, those as the openers. And then
for me and I know we we just brought up.
I like Keisha. I think Keisha Cole is the epitome
of early two thousands, R and B ooh. I think

(55:54):
her vocal ability is better than Ashanti, but I like
Ashanti's discography as well, But I don't know if we
get a Shanty without also joa Rule coming out, like
I think for most of Ashanti's discography it was dependent
on her collapse with hip hop right, So I don't
even know if she's someone that I would consider doing
something without. And it's what we're seeing too, like every

(56:16):
time she comes out. She got a Nelly Byrs, she
got a jaw Rule buyers, she got you know what
I mean? And I love her to death. I don't
know if Alicia Keys has the vocals right now to
where I want to see her live. I think she's talented. Damn.
That's a tough one because again I'm removing the Beyonces.

(56:38):
We no longer have a Whitney.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
So you're gonna go. I know only one place to go.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Where are you going?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
If you don't want to do Alicia, you got to
go Mary?

Speaker 1 (56:49):
But Mary's touring currently.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
I'm just saying if it was your yours.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
But it's weird if it's mine too. I mean, if
I do a whole woman's festival, I'd have everyone on there, everybody.
But it's also weird too because I think Mary is
more nineties. Like if I do Mary as a headliner,
then I would bring Escape Vogue, maybe Black and I
know I think one or two of them passed, but
it would be that era. Like if I'm doing early
two thousands New Brick, I mean, then, but then that's
the thing. Then we're spanning over the last thirty years.

(57:16):
Oh no, No, for fest of all, there's plenty of
There's plenty of people I would I would add, but
I think that.

Speaker 3 (57:22):
That's what we're speaking all of this for a reason
to put it, you know, by the way, somebody's going
to hear this, Okay, by the way, I.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Love her music, love her album. You know who I'm
not invited to two women not being invited and I
love her. I don't even don't make this a clupe.
This is only for the listeners. After after Tiny Desk
and after b E t A. Marie no longer invited

(57:51):
and I've been wanting her to come back, and now
it's okay, Oh yeah, everything and then also Tierra Marie,
which which for for God bless Yeah, those two in
terms of when we look at early two thousands, how
they were literally pedestaled right next to the Beyonce, the Rihanna, Like,

(58:14):
it's really interesting to see that. You know where they're
at now. But I think after seeing a Marie live.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
You can I ask you some other artists. Yeah, there
is a newer artist, Queen Nija. Like Queena's music.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
You don't always talk about thug R and B. She
makes like hood booger R and B like for the
hood booger bitches like, and there is because I do think,
but but you know what's crazy? Hold on? But do
you know who makes the same music, who has accelerated
way beyond Summer Walker?

Speaker 4 (58:53):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (58:53):
And so to me knowing that they make to me
the same type of music to me, they make hood
booger insecure bitch music like like it's not empowering their
crying over like yeah, yeah, are you kiddy? Hold on?
A product of the machine, my nigga? Do you not

(59:14):
see her baby daddys right now? Do we not see
what Summer Walker's selection and men has been. Have we
not seen Queene.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Figure it out?

Speaker 1 (59:23):
Yeah? Cool? And then they make music for the bitches
still trying to figure it out? Who want to lean
to the man who suck.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
They're not gonna begs for the rest of their days.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
They're trying to You know, it's crazy though, hold on,
you want to know what's crazy though? As the consumer,
guess what? We hate seeing an evolved bitch. We hate
when the bitches get happy. When Mary J. Blige wanted
to start singing about, uh, what's this drama? No no, no, no,
no more, drama's fine when she was singing like the
happy upbeat ship, It's like, girl, we don't want to

(59:51):
hear that ship. When I would even say who else?
Who else? There's a couple of bitches that won't say
got me. By the way, happy is my least favorite
record from Ashanti Thank You. I hate it. I think
that again because when we go to R and B,
we're looking for two emotions, and I don't think happy

(01:00:16):
is the emotion that we're looking for. When we go there,
hot in Horny, Hot Saturday, the yearning.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
Yeah, it's sad and horny feel when they're going for it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
And so yeah, that's kind of where where I don't know,
I think that's where it is for me personally. Do
you like Clo Soul? I love Clio's first of all
Clio Soul.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
She took over my timeline when she was doing her run.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Clo Soul, and I like some problem. I like Sabrina Claudio.
I like Daniel Caesar. Who's the other other girl that
I really really like? Oh, she was with rock Nation,
looks like Cleo Solah Love. So those are bitches that

(01:01:01):
I put on when I'm ready to find like you
know what I mean, there's a there's a thing there.
And by the way, I can't get out of this
without speaking to Frank Ocean because Wow, I think when
I think of and for us, it's not an overrated album.
I mean it's not an underrated album because I think
we know what Gennel Orange is and has done for

(01:01:22):
us in terms of how we view like a good,
full piece of work. But I don't think it's gotten
the recognition globally or even award wise that it should
have gotten.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
He's a naic, dynamic artist and I think, yeah, he
is the definition of where the fuck is the next album?
He's one of the most anticipated artists that we.

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
Has become the new D'Angelo.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
He's actually been a person that I've seen cure homophobia
just a little bit in our community, like they're looking
over the fact that some of the songs he's singing
to men, and but it's because of what he's been
able to put out with Channel Orange. I'm curious to
if he comes back out, if we have that same

(01:02:07):
emotional attachment to something new. I'm curious, especially seeing that
he gave us his as to kiss without showing like
he was the one who didn't show up at Coachella
or something last year. Right, So I'm just curious to
know if I think we're a little bit too invested
with the personal lives of artists now as well and
our treatment towards them, which is why we see fucking

(01:02:28):
Lauren Hill ruining her legacy with her lateness or tardiness
or absence from showing up and being on time for
her fans ruined. I think it's ruining. I think the
same way Kanye West is ruining his legacy. I think
I know it's a lot, but I think that there
is a treatment or expectation that we have from these celebrities,

(01:02:51):
not only from output or performance, but to show up
when we were spending our hard earned dollar in a
motherfucking reception.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
I don't think people was not support Lauren. I think
she's still sell out. She's still she's still that chip
mind you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
And it might be only two because we don't hear
her talking right now. We're only just mad that she's
not showing up. If we get into maybe her thoughts
and views on where we're at from a political landscape
and things like that, I think it could be a
little tricky.

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
Yeah, the Frank the Frank Ocean one is interesting, Like
when D'Angelo was gone for a while and he came
back like a ten years ago at this point with
Black Messiah, like yeah, crazy, and I also felt like
grateful it, like he got he had another one in him, right,
we got to experience that and hear that, and because
we didn't know, I think Frank can I would be

(01:03:38):
curious to see if you would kind of get that
he's been going for so long and then come back
and still have be able to tap into some type
of emotion and the way that like Dangelo was when
he did it did that album, that's Black Masia album,
I would say was underrated if we if we do
our categories, I would say that's an underrated one.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Okay, do y'all before we get out of here. Do
we want to say any overrated?

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
You know what, it's just two good songs, That's what
I was going to say. A genre.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
It's not a genre, no, and don't that's it like
as a record too, like hm.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
Hmm, all of me great?

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
The rest and look there we go.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
And for those artists listening and the people out there,
don't get any your feelings were all music fans, and
we do have likes and dislikes just like you do,
just like you do.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Let's be very clear.

Speaker 5 (01:04:33):
I am.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Maybe I'm not an author, and I'm feeling it. Mind you.
I don't take like podcast comments that seriously, like because
clearly I'm coming up here and i'm and I'm I'm
showing up and sharing my opinions. Baby, reading reviews about
what I consider art, which is a book that took
a lot, which is it's a lot of me that
I poured into it. Seeing reviews on a book is

(01:04:57):
now I know how people feel about putting their art,
soul or real life like experiences into music in an
album and then people being like, yo, that shit was
fucking ass, you know what I mean? Like, so I
get it, and I know, like I have to now
figure out how to receive critique while also giving it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:16):
But yeah, I don't think that album is bad, but
I do think it's overrated. And again Trap Soul is not.
It's not as defining as people try to make a
team two amazing songs.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Yeah, that was my overrated What what what do you
have any overrated or underrated?

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
I have a big underrated.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
What's a big underrated.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
As dope as he is as accolades.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
If he's he's gotten in reference, I believe that Music
Soul Child's entire discography underrated.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
I think the dude is.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
I always have these arguments about him versus D'Angelo and
who's the king of R and B A neo soul
rather well and.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Anthony Hamilton because that's what we saw in verses. You
know what's crazy, I'm not putting Wait, you want to
know what's crazy about that too? I think no, no, no,
I don't put him before he did. I think what
I hate about it, especially today seeing it Anthony Hamilton's
vocals outshine Music So Child, which I think to me
leads to the public not respecting the discography currently of Music.

Speaker 4 (01:06:17):
So Child he's a better writer. Music is a better writer,
way better.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
But I think I think I think Music show Child's
a better listen though.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
This subjective. Yeah, I could go, but I.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
Like Hamilton is like It's like when we talked about
any other episode.

Speaker 6 (01:06:35):
The slave it is given slaves when you hear the story,
sen isn't slave.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
Music don't do I'm in Alabama and trying to get
out of oppression. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
It's a good music album.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Shout out to Anthony Hamilton. I'm just positive album. Oh
all of them.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Ship just just want to listen. I just want to sing.
I'm sorry, just listen. I just want to sing. Bro
even the more recent except for the thing he tried
to do when he was fake rapping, that was more
of an experiment. He was upset that nobody was listening
to R and B, so he said, I'm gonna start
doing auto tune shit. People actually thought he was He

(01:07:20):
wasn't investing into it, but he just did it because
he's like, yo, I don't want to do this. I'm
gonna do the robot shit because nobody want to hear singing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
I do want to I do want to add an
album that is this I've kind of seen as a debate,
but I would like to put it is underrated. But
it's only because he's one of those with such a
classic album that I think it's been overstepped even today
with him retoring Usher's eighty seven oh one. What I
think I think is underrated by the way, not otrated.

(01:07:52):
And I only say that it's underrated because people lean
more heavily into my way. And of course Confessions, and
I think the eighties seven oh one actually actually and
eighty seven o one came out in one, Confessions came
out in four. I'm surprised that eighty seven oh one
didn't catapult his career more than Confession, like eighty seven

(01:08:15):
o one, those records, the music on there, like the features.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
That I was supposed to get Confessions in that trajectory
until maybe seven years.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Yeah. That's how is the fact that even it was
only a three year span, but when Confessions came out,
it completely overshadowed and removed eighty seven oh one for
what the masterpiece it really was. But you might be
right maybe because there was only that two to three
year gap between them, is why eighty seven o one
got kind of pushed to the back, but I love
eighty seven on one.

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
Oh my God, Ryan Leslie's debut album, Oh how can
we forget Yo Dame?

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
But I say no, Ryan Leslie used to be one
of my favorite heavy rotation favorite. He has some bops
and I mean, clearly now with the Diddy trial, we
know what happened with his career. Did he stepped on
that ship, That's what it had to be.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
But he recovered elsewhere in tech, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
He recovered it well. And he's the one who I've
been really enjoying listening to post his career talk about
the importance of email lists and direct to consumer and
things like that. He's he's really smart and in that aspect. Now,
I don't know who we forgot. Clearly we we could
have really leaned into. I mean, I think we're gonna

(01:09:34):
have to do a part two of this, honestly, three
four might because we didn't get into when when Tank
came on to decisions decisions, he had his Mount Rushmore.
We have also the conversations of the r. Kelly's, the
Michael Jackson's, the Ushers, the Chris Browns, like where we

(01:09:54):
put all of those people, and also if if Michael,
why Michael Jackson is also the blueprint for these R
and B stars when Michael Jackson is a pop star again,
not really R and B, but that's what.

Speaker 4 (01:10:05):
It's almost like the eighty seven oh one Confessions, because
the album before Thriller was like the R and B
disco kind of like mix. It's tough, man, it's tough
get Once you get big, stardom demands a different thing
from R and B.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
And who they work with too.

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
We'll be working with a guy like Quincy Jones, right,
the arc is higher now. It's like, all right, you
did this, you accomplished this. It's like the Beyonce conversation,
like you consider her above and beyond with R and B.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Offers, Yeah, but only because she's transcended genres. You know
who is probably the epitome of R and B and
just released a new song and it's like, oh, bitch,
you're the same bitch from ninety Mariah Carey. She's she
never left R and B even when she came in
and sung the vocals with on some of the hip

(01:10:51):
hop records. She is R and B through and through
with her biracial ass, like it never really that's a fact,
you know what I mean? And she never left it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Let's give her like.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Yeah, like like she from from bush start to the
emancurpation of Mimi. Even when she did the song with
uh uh well odb is when I said she kind
of leaned into the hip hop but she even but she.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Was singing the.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
She gave you R and B And so I think
she's the only, like she's the only mega superstar that
I don't think ever really removed herself from that R
and B genre she's given us.

Speaker 4 (01:11:27):
I think the whiteness let her do that too.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Yo, you you can't even say that we're not allowing
adele In's R and B bro.

Speaker 4 (01:11:33):
No, because look like I'm abrast on this conversation with
an r that worked for an usher, right, and he says,
how do you a and R usher? And I'm like,
all right, like you can do like uh this relationship
narrative and this and that, like thinking different ideas and
he's just like hits. He's like he's a superstar. He's
like it doesn't matter, he just needs hits. And so

(01:11:54):
I think that's what you get with like the Beyonces
and the Ushers. They just need hits, and and that
makes them away further and further from the R and B.
They made us love them kind of in the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
I mean, yes and no, because I only think Confessions
gets as big in the notoriety that it does because
of his relationship at the time to Chile, and it
being that we knew that music, mind you, apparently that now,
apparently Brian Michael Cox is saying that that was like
his story. This wasn't even usher story. Jermaine Dupriest said
it too, And so the idea that this music was

(01:12:27):
so big because we thought it was some rip between
what we viewed as black love at the time. By
the way, boy has have our black love examples been
really interesting? Fucking Bobby and Whitney, Chili and Usher. Now
we fucking see the endings of Pat poosin fucking Little
uh Remy mind, it's just interesting our black even Jada
and will we see what their relationship. Our black love

(01:12:49):
examples are really interesting. I want to know why we don't.
I want to see what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:12:55):
Here you go, I set week.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
Bro, literally, I'm curious to know. I really love these
types of conversations because I think it leans us to
dive into the nuance, but also really lean into public perception,
how we're consuming things, how we're seeing it shift our
view and thinking or consuming, and really the impact that
it's having on our faves, on our celebs, on the

(01:13:21):
money that not only we're spending, but the money that
they're receiving as artists. We'll definitely have to do a
part two in this, and I think I think the
next time we do a part two of this or
any type of conversation like this, I got to bring
in some of my some of my friends, like industry
friends to have this conversation. I would love to get
him in. I mean, but we're in Atlanta. There's a

(01:13:41):
ton of there's a ton there's tons of R and
B artists here, or we do it when we go
back up to New York. I can definitely have real
James pull up. But yeah, we got to get into it.
I would love to know your thoughts on this. I
don't know if it was as ignorant as it was,
but I think we were definitely leaning into the public
opinion on certain things our own opinions. Okay, that was okay,

(01:14:07):
I forgot to say it that I forgotta say that. Okay,
I got okay. Well, you could choose to love it,
you could choose to hate it. You can choose to
listen to these ugly niggas if you won't. If you
haven't yet, make sure you purchase no holst bar to
doing Manifesto, Sexual Exploration and power out. Now go ahead

(01:14:27):
and follow me everywhere. See where I will be in
a sitting near you for sure, and you know, shout
out to us having a new home baby over here
on a Black Fact network. Now you can hate it,
you can love it either way. Are you choosing to
be selectively ignorant or are you choosing to get educated?
See y'all next week.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
Oh one more announcement, look out for the Selectively Ignorant
R and B playlist created.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
By Mandy B.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
That she don't know that she's gonna do, but we
gotta get her to do it here. I'm gonna help
her out, So you look out for that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
That's fine, Come on, We dropping playlist for y'all. All right, bye, y'all.
Selective Ignorance a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
Thanks for tuning in the Selective Ignorance of Mandy B.
Selective Ignorance it's executive produced to Buy Mandy B. And
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Selective Ignorance R&B Debates | Bonus Episode