December 10, 2024 • 21 mins
How do you even report on sexual abuse? Early in the investigation, Ellie spoke with charity organisation Heard on how to safely and sensitively report on this story. Check out Heard at heard.org.uk.
The Bunny Trap is produced by Novel.
For more from Novel visit novel.audio
Follow Ellie on social media here:
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Novel. Hey listeners, this is Ellie Flynn. I'm so happy
The Bunny Trap is out in the world and finding
listeners like you. If you haven't listened to the full
series yet, make sure you do. It's the story of
a group of glamor models from the UK who band
together to call out Luis Gomez, a photographer they accused
(00:28):
of abuse. Reporting on this took me years and to
places I never expected, through the English countryside, to a
weird glamor event in Orlando, Florida, and a dusty ghost
town outside of Las Vegas. We spoke to so many
people and made countless decisions along the way, decisions about
(00:52):
what leeds to follow, who to speak to next, and
how best to tell this story. My team and I
aren't quite ready to let this series go just yet,
so we've got three bonus episodes for you. We interviewed
so many brilliant and helpful people along the way, but
for one reason or another, not all of those interviews
made it into the series. All of them were crucial
(01:14):
to how we put this series together, though, so we're
bringing them to you now. Firstly, I want to bring
you an interview I did at the very start of production,
which was really important in shaping how we told this story,
from the way we conducted interviews with models all the
way through to the wording we used in the final scripts.
(01:34):
From the team at Novel, you're listening to the Bunny
Trap Bonus episode one Help. I'm a journalist. HER's a
(01:57):
charity that works with media professionals and journalists like me,
as well as the people we interview, to help us
report better on topics that sometimes aren't properly represented in
mainstream media. I'm talking trans issues, climate change, migration, and poverty,
topics where the people affected often aren't actually listened to
or given a platform. HERD helps to equip the journalists
(02:18):
working on these stories with the tools to tell those
stories with sensitivity and nuance and in ways that make
the contributors we interview feel well heard. One of the
areas that HERD focuses on is helping journalists tell stories
about sexual abuse, and so I caught up with two
staff members at HERD to find out more about their work.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I'm Zeno, project coordinator, and I'm Kara and I'm a
project manager working on our Ingles project.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Zeno Okaka and kiaravare both work on Herd's Angles Campaign,
a program that was started in the wake of the
Med Too movement in twenty sixteen to create better understanding
of sexual violence and domestic abuse in the media. With
the team, it heard was central to the way we
interviewed the glamor models at the heart of this story
and how we navigated some of the thorny issues this
(03:07):
series brought up, so we wanted you to hear from
them too. So what exactly does the Angle's Campaign do
for projects in the media.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
We started supporting people with leave the experience of sexual
and domestic abuse to share their stories with the media
in a way that changes the conversations but also opens
up a better understanding of these issues.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And how do you go about that? How do you
create a safe environment for survivors to tell their stories.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
The first thing is we bring together people with the
experience of sexual and or domestic abuse, training them to
be able to talk about this story in a safe
and strategic way, so make sure their messages are heard
and understood by audiences, but also that they can do
this work in a way that feels sustainable to them.
And then we have informal behind the scenes conversations with
(03:59):
journalists producers, what have you support them to understand the
stories that people with this experience want to be told
and support them to understand what the issue is.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
When HERD works with survivors of sexual abuse, they give
them loads of practical strategies to help them feel comfortable
enough to share their story with the media.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
One of the first things that we really work with
people to understand is the control that they have in
situations like this, giving them the things to think about before, during,
and after an interview, so whether that's the questions that
they need to ask, the things that they are entitled to,
and helping them to understand that it's a relationship that
(04:38):
they're having with the journalists. There's a give and take
to it, like it's okay to have an agenda, it's
okay to have something that you want to get out
of the interview, and also reminding them that they don't
have to do it alone, so you can have a
friend with you, you can have an ally with you,
or you can say sorry, this opportunity is not for me,
this is not the right time for me, and pass
(04:58):
it on to someone else that is better suited.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, and why is that so important on both ends
of the spectrum, you know, for journalists to really understand
the people they are interviewing, but also for the people
who are telling their stories.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
In this case sexual and domestic abuse. We live in
a world where we absorb these ideas and stereotypes through
you know, watching TV, like hearing the news, and so
having conversations in the media that are realistic and nuanced
and that really like center people instead of you know,
the sensational storyline. It's really important to grow as a
(05:35):
society towards a way of like looking at these issues
that can have an impact for the people affected. One
thing that one survivors said is like, as survivors, because
of what we went through, we've been let down by institutions,
sometimes family, friends, and when we trust the media with
our story and then they don't approach us or engaged
(05:58):
with us in a sensitive way, and that might mean
you know, not giving them the control over the narratives
that they want to share, or just like in doing
an interview and then don't follow up with when this
is going to be released or involving them in the
process of sharing their story. This can feel very traumatizing
and it feels like they've been abused by yet another institution,
(06:20):
and surely like there's no my level, you know, intention
behind that from the journey's perspective most of the times
and journeys want to get it right. But then we
really need to be aware of what our behaviors are
reinforcing in how they've been treated generally by society.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
What are some of the main stereotypes that you want
to break down when it comes to reporting on this area.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
But the first thing is assuming that it's the survivors
for that they should have just a certain way done,
a certain thing left earlier, what have you. But I
think also just helping people to understand what abuse looks
like and like the TV shows that we watch, if
we're seeing the same thing over and over again when
we're approached by you know, for example, some of the
(07:08):
different gender saying, Hey, I'm being abused by my boyfriend
what have you? Not intentionally we're going to assume that
that can't be quite true because that's not what I've
seen in the media. We have a stereotypical idea that
it's only a certain gender, it's only physical and so
that's why it's important to tell different kinds of stories
(07:30):
of abuse. It's uncomfortable to talk about abuse. It's uncomfortable
to think that you know, people close to you might
be going through something difficult or be perpetrating something difficult.
But it's fine to acknowledge the difficulty, but we also
need to then do something about it, talk about the
solutions as well.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I imagine there's like a real scale of kind of you know,
really really awful reporting through to reporting that's well intentioned,
but that has some things in it that can be
probably for people who work in that industry or who
are victims of survivors. But what are some of the
common pitfalls that easy when people do report on the
sex industry or on the glamor industry.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Language is really important, and I think we're prone to
use language when it comes to reporting on these issues
in a way that it's sometimes dehumanizing and it doesn't
take into account how the person wants to be described,
what the personal experience looks like. I mean, reporting on
sexual abuse is problematic and can be problematic always. What
(08:34):
we want to do is like reframing this conversation towards
a more societal approach to sexual and domestic abuse. To
see how we all play a part to make this
issue as big as it is, and we often hear like,
you know, institutions can really change, like this is such
a big problem, Like how can we tackle it? And
(08:56):
what these narratives do in people's mind is that people
he's engaged with the topic and your audience like where
their minds will go when they hear the stop it
without hearing that actually we all have a part to play,
there are solutions, and even just showing there are places
where these solutions are already implemented and it's still working.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Kira's point was instrumental in making sure we gave the
women at the heart of the story's space to be
represented and related to as people beyond what they do
for work. After the break, I get some specific advice
on how to report this story. Some of the women
(09:54):
I spoke to in The Bunny Trap identify as sex workers,
and while others don't identify with that, many people would
see them that way. Kiara says that sex workers who've
experienced sexual abuse can find it even more difficult than
others to share their stories with the media.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
For the purpose of like the conversation around stereotypes and abuse.
This is where we really hate a wall. Like we
are prone to think that sex workers can't be abused
because of the work that they choose, but actually what
we don't normally focus on is, you know, the wider
(10:32):
societal patriarchal contexts that allows women to be exploited in
this way even when they choose to do this for
a living, which is beyond that to judge in moral terms.
And so we go back to how do we bring
the conversation back to what the real issue is and
not what people want to see as the issue. So
(10:56):
it's really important that we reframe the way that we
think and talk about use in the glamor and sexual workspace.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
If you were to give me some advice when it
comes to interviewing victims or people with experiences in this area,
how best can I interview someone without either ret traumatizing
them or falling victim to any of those sort of
stereotypes or tropes that we've been speaking about.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You won't be able to get everything right, like you
will make mistakes, and that's fine, like we're all human.
I will say the first thing that when you're interviewing
someone is always ask and have that conversation with them,
because that can be huge in setting the foundation for
the relationship going forward. Have that conversation before the interview
to ask them what do you need? How can I
(11:42):
describe this? And how can I say that? And just
checking with them also about like what are your triggers,
what is it that I need to avoid? What are
your boundaries, and encouraging them to think about that as well,
simple things like encouraging them to have someone to support them,
have someone to help them prepare if you have an
editor who's probably going to change things, telling them like, hey,
(12:04):
like I'm going to do my best to make sure
you're represented well. But if things change, this is why
explain to people reasons and keeping in touch and then
afterwards a simple well done. I really appreciate that, which
a surprising amount of times doesn't always happen. It's just
really simple things.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
One thing that we have faced in this production, and
I guess as a starting point, podcasts take a long
time to make anyway, because you know, you have an
interview process and there's an editing process. This is a
big investigation, so it was already going to be a
long process. Do you have any advice on sort of
how best to handle people who have told their stories
when there are delays, and how to kind of manage
(12:43):
expectations when sometimes things take quite a long time to
put together and to put out there.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
For people to know that you haven't forgotten them, You're
still very grateful for their sharing their stories, but you're
realistic about how the process works and how the industry works,
and the obstacles that you might face. Yeah, So like
being honest, like keeping in touch, like sending updates, and
making sure that you don't forget the people that you
(13:10):
worked with in the process, I think is really important.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
One of the things I wanted to speak to the
team I heard about was whether they had any advice
for me on how to cover a story about one
man that many women are making allegations against.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I think the really important thing to remember, especially when
there are like a lot of allegations, is not to
fall into the trap of demonizing and I think finding
a way to report without falling into that trap and
showing that it could be anyone because of how what
is spread in the society. Issue is it's like, how
(13:46):
can we understand that these patterns and these circumstances are
not the exceptional, especially if you're a woman, like every
woman listening to this podcast, like we have been in
a position of feeling very uncomfort or because of you know,
the paradynamics that gender and age and all the components
of this story might put on the plead that's the
(14:08):
key on how you can sweitch the conversation.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So for me, this story has always been about power.
I think a huge part of it as well is
the stigma that everyone has that you know, the general
public has about sex workers, and even just two girls
that I've spoken to the way they try to kind
(14:32):
of get this out there and try to get people
to listen for quite a long time, but just really
felt like nobody took them seriously or like there was
a real sense that like, well why did you go
on the photo shoot? And it was like they never
they felt like they would never listen to from the start.
And so for me, those have been the two most
important things to get across that kind of being a
(14:54):
sex worker doesn't make you any less of a victim
or any less susceptible to this, and that this is
really about power. And I guess with that in mind,
do you have any specific advice about how I can
frame that in this podcast and what to keep in mind.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Everything can be boiled down to the importance of bringing
honor to victims and how actually, when you talk to survivors,
what they really need is that recognition from their community
or the society that you know, the rights that they've
been deprived by their perpetrators are now being restated by
(15:30):
being believed. And like, we know why this was possible, right,
We know about the power imbalance, we know about the stigma,
and yet you know there are human beings that are
still the humanized in the way that they experience these
issues because of the stereotypes around sex workers in this case.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So if you're telling a new story about the way
we talk about survivors, repeat the human aspect of the
person that has been affected by this, and I think
that will supporting helping people to remember that like, hey,
this is not this individual's.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Fault, showing the systemic, institutional like societal impact of this
issue and not the individual one, not this person that
made this choice, but all of us and how we
all contributed to turning a blind eye.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
As for how to get justice for the women in
our story, it was heard that first put me onto
the idea that it doesn't always have to be through
the courts.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
When it comes to sexual violence, we tend to focus
on achieving justice through justice systems, but unfortunately we know
that when it comes to survivors, there's a very high
chance of not experiencing any form of justice through normal
institutional systems. And so we also know that what a
survivor or victim needs is often opposed to the requirements
(16:51):
of legal proceedings. Social acknowledgement and support, power and control
over their stories in a way that they can share
in their own terms, and also control over the exposure
that they have when it comes to the trauma that
they experience. And if we heal that relationship through believing
(17:12):
in a person to giving them a platform to actually
share their stories in a way that is not traumatizing
it it's liberating. It really can bring a sense of
justice to the person that is doing the talking. The
media can have a role and a power in giving
a victim or a survivor the sense of justice that
(17:35):
they need by just showing that they believe in them,
giving them a platform and giving them their voice to
say this happened to me. This is the way it
impacted me, and people might believe it or might not
believe it. But if we represent people's stories in a
way that they're happy with, they know it's acre and
(17:57):
they know it brings them justice because it sures the
reality of this cave of the issue, then I think
there is a comftability in that there is a comfortability
in having played the party, in giving the vice, and
that's what you're doing with your podcast.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
This final message from Kiara and Zeno really resonated with
me that telling this story and getting it out there
could be a form of justice. It was this motivation
that I held on to throughout reporting on this story. Really,
it's what fueled me since I started out as a
journalist telling stories about women and stories about power and
how sometimes that power is abused, stories that can make
(18:42):
a difference just by being told. Thanks for joining us
on the first bonus episode of The Bunny Trap. We've
got two more bonus episodes for you. Next time, you'll
hear more about me, my background in reporting on stories
about women and the sex industry, and how that led
(19:02):
to the fateful email landing in my inbox, the one
that kicked off this whole series. We contacted Luis Gomez
multiple times for comment, but we never heard back. He
has not been charged with any crimes and is presumed
(19:23):
innocent under the law. We also sought comment from Playboy USA.
They declined our requests for an interview, but stated that
they asked their licensees to blacklist the photographer mentioned in
this series and that they prohibit paid to play the
practice of charging models to appear in magazines. The Bunny
(19:47):
Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel, visit
novel the audio. The show is hosted by me Ellie Flynn.
You can find me on social media by searching my
name That's Ellie Flynn f l Y double N. This
series is produced by Eleana Biggs and this episode is
produced by Malia Sortland, additional production from Lee Meyer and
(20:11):
Saskia Collette. The editors are Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell Are.
Executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management
from Scherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and
scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by
Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs and Max O'Brien, original music composed
(20:33):
and performed by Jak Long, and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,
Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed
by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, creative director of Development
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Novel m
Novel. Hey listeners, this is Ellie Flynn. I'm so happy
The Bunny Trap is out in the world and finding
listeners like you. If you haven't listened to the full
series yet, make sure you do. It's the story of
a group of glamor models from the UK who band
together to call out Luis Gomez, a photographer they accused
(00:28):
of abuse. Reporting on this took me years and to
places I never expected, through the English countryside, to a
weird glamor event in Orlando, Florida, and a dusty ghost
town outside of Las Vegas. We spoke to so many
people and made countless decisions along the way, decisions about
(00:52):
what leeds to follow, who to speak to next, and
how best to tell this story. My team and I
aren't quite ready to let this series go just yet,
so we've got three bonus episodes for you. We interviewed
so many brilliant and helpful people along the way, but
for one reason or another, not all of those interviews
made it into the series. All of them were crucial
(01:14):
to how we put this series together, though, so we're
bringing them to you now. Firstly, I want to bring
you an interview I did at the very start of production,
which was really important in shaping how we told this story,
from the way we conducted interviews with models all the
way through to the wording we used in the final scripts.
(01:34):
From the team at Novel, you're listening to the Bunny
Trap Bonus episode one Help. I'm a journalist. HER's a
(01:57):
charity that works with media professionals and journalists like me,
as well as the people we interview, to help us
report better on topics that sometimes aren't properly represented in
mainstream media. I'm talking trans issues, climate change, migration, and poverty,
topics where the people affected often aren't actually listened to
or given a platform. HERD helps to equip the journalists
(02:18):
working on these stories with the tools to tell those
stories with sensitivity and nuance and in ways that make
the contributors we interview feel well heard. One of the
areas that HERD focuses on is helping journalists tell stories
about sexual abuse, and so I caught up with two
staff members at HERD to find out more about their work.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I'm Zeno, project coordinator, and I'm Kara and I'm a
project manager working on our Ingles project.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Zeno Okaka and kiaravare both work on Herd's Angles Campaign,
a program that was started in the wake of the
Med Too movement in twenty sixteen to create better understanding
of sexual violence and domestic abuse in the media. With
the team, it heard was central to the way we
interviewed the glamor models at the heart of this story
and how we navigated some of the thorny issues this
(03:07):
series brought up, so we wanted you to hear from
them too. So what exactly does the Angle's Campaign do
for projects in the media.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
We started supporting people with leave the experience of sexual
and domestic abuse to share their stories with the media
in a way that changes the conversations but also opens
up a better understanding of these issues.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And how do you go about that? How do you
create a safe environment for survivors to tell their stories.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
The first thing is we bring together people with the
experience of sexual and or domestic abuse, training them to
be able to talk about this story in a safe
and strategic way, so make sure their messages are heard
and understood by audiences, but also that they can do
this work in a way that feels sustainable to them.
And then we have informal behind the scenes conversations with
(03:59):
journalists producers, what have you support them to understand the
stories that people with this experience want to be told
and support them to understand what the issue is.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
When HERD works with survivors of sexual abuse, they give
them loads of practical strategies to help them feel comfortable
enough to share their story with the media.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
One of the first things that we really work with
people to understand is the control that they have in
situations like this, giving them the things to think about before, during,
and after an interview, so whether that's the questions that
they need to ask, the things that they are entitled to,
and helping them to understand that it's a relationship that
(04:38):
they're having with the journalists. There's a give and take
to it, like it's okay to have an agenda, it's
okay to have something that you want to get out
of the interview, and also reminding them that they don't
have to do it alone, so you can have a
friend with you, you can have an ally with you,
or you can say sorry, this opportunity is not for me,
this is not the right time for me, and pass
(04:58):
it on to someone else that is better suited.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, and why is that so important on both ends
of the spectrum, you know, for journalists to really understand
the people they are interviewing, but also for the people
who are telling their stories.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
In this case sexual and domestic abuse. We live in
a world where we absorb these ideas and stereotypes through
you know, watching TV, like hearing the news, and so
having conversations in the media that are realistic and nuanced
and that really like center people instead of you know,
the sensational storyline. It's really important to grow as a
(05:35):
society towards a way of like looking at these issues
that can have an impact for the people affected. One
thing that one survivors said is like, as survivors, because
of what we went through, we've been let down by institutions,
sometimes family, friends, and when we trust the media with
our story and then they don't approach us or engaged
(05:58):
with us in a sensitive way, and that might mean
you know, not giving them the control over the narratives
that they want to share, or just like in doing
an interview and then don't follow up with when this
is going to be released or involving them in the
process of sharing their story. This can feel very traumatizing
and it feels like they've been abused by yet another institution,
(06:20):
and surely like there's no my level, you know, intention
behind that from the journey's perspective most of the times
and journeys want to get it right. But then we
really need to be aware of what our behaviors are
reinforcing in how they've been treated generally by society.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
What are some of the main stereotypes that you want
to break down when it comes to reporting on this area.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
But the first thing is assuming that it's the survivors
for that they should have just a certain way done,
a certain thing left earlier, what have you. But I
think also just helping people to understand what abuse looks
like and like the TV shows that we watch, if
we're seeing the same thing over and over again when
we're approached by you know, for example, some of the
(07:08):
different gender saying, Hey, I'm being abused by my boyfriend
what have you? Not intentionally we're going to assume that
that can't be quite true because that's not what I've
seen in the media. We have a stereotypical idea that
it's only a certain gender, it's only physical and so
that's why it's important to tell different kinds of stories
(07:30):
of abuse. It's uncomfortable to talk about abuse. It's uncomfortable
to think that you know, people close to you might
be going through something difficult or be perpetrating something difficult.
But it's fine to acknowledge the difficulty, but we also
need to then do something about it, talk about the
solutions as well.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I imagine there's like a real scale of kind of you know,
really really awful reporting through to reporting that's well intentioned,
but that has some things in it that can be
probably for people who work in that industry or who
are victims of survivors. But what are some of the
common pitfalls that easy when people do report on the
sex industry or on the glamor industry.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Language is really important, and I think we're prone to
use language when it comes to reporting on these issues
in a way that it's sometimes dehumanizing and it doesn't
take into account how the person wants to be described,
what the personal experience looks like. I mean, reporting on
sexual abuse is problematic and can be problematic always. What
(08:34):
we want to do is like reframing this conversation towards
a more societal approach to sexual and domestic abuse. To
see how we all play a part to make this
issue as big as it is, and we often hear like,
you know, institutions can really change, like this is such
a big problem, Like how can we tackle it? And
(08:56):
what these narratives do in people's mind is that people
he's engaged with the topic and your audience like where
their minds will go when they hear the stop it
without hearing that actually we all have a part to play,
there are solutions, and even just showing there are places
where these solutions are already implemented and it's still working.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Kira's point was instrumental in making sure we gave the
women at the heart of the story's space to be
represented and related to as people beyond what they do
for work. After the break, I get some specific advice
on how to report this story. Some of the women
(09:54):
I spoke to in The Bunny Trap identify as sex workers,
and while others don't identify with that, many people would
see them that way. Kiara says that sex workers who've
experienced sexual abuse can find it even more difficult than
others to share their stories with the media.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
For the purpose of like the conversation around stereotypes and abuse.
This is where we really hate a wall. Like we
are prone to think that sex workers can't be abused
because of the work that they choose, but actually what
we don't normally focus on is, you know, the wider
(10:32):
societal patriarchal contexts that allows women to be exploited in
this way even when they choose to do this for
a living, which is beyond that to judge in moral terms.
And so we go back to how do we bring
the conversation back to what the real issue is and
not what people want to see as the issue. So
(10:56):
it's really important that we reframe the way that we
think and talk about use in the glamor and sexual workspace.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
If you were to give me some advice when it
comes to interviewing victims or people with experiences in this area,
how best can I interview someone without either ret traumatizing
them or falling victim to any of those sort of
stereotypes or tropes that we've been speaking about.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You won't be able to get everything right, like you
will make mistakes, and that's fine, like we're all human.
I will say the first thing that when you're interviewing
someone is always ask and have that conversation with them,
because that can be huge in setting the foundation for
the relationship going forward. Have that conversation before the interview
to ask them what do you need? How can I
(11:42):
describe this? And how can I say that? And just
checking with them also about like what are your triggers,
what is it that I need to avoid? What are
your boundaries, and encouraging them to think about that as well,
simple things like encouraging them to have someone to support them,
have someone to help them prepare if you have an
editor who's probably going to change things, telling them like, hey,
(12:04):
like I'm going to do my best to make sure
you're represented well. But if things change, this is why
explain to people reasons and keeping in touch and then
afterwards a simple well done. I really appreciate that, which
a surprising amount of times doesn't always happen. It's just
really simple things.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
One thing that we have faced in this production, and
I guess as a starting point, podcasts take a long
time to make anyway, because you know, you have an
interview process and there's an editing process. This is a
big investigation, so it was already going to be a
long process. Do you have any advice on sort of
how best to handle people who have told their stories
when there are delays, and how to kind of manage
(12:43):
expectations when sometimes things take quite a long time to
put together and to put out there.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
For people to know that you haven't forgotten them, You're
still very grateful for their sharing their stories, but you're
realistic about how the process works and how the industry works,
and the obstacles that you might face. Yeah, So like
being honest, like keeping in touch, like sending updates, and
making sure that you don't forget the people that you
(13:10):
worked with in the process, I think is really important.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
One of the things I wanted to speak to the
team I heard about was whether they had any advice
for me on how to cover a story about one
man that many women are making allegations against.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I think the really important thing to remember, especially when
there are like a lot of allegations, is not to
fall into the trap of demonizing and I think finding
a way to report without falling into that trap and
showing that it could be anyone because of how what
is spread in the society. Issue is it's like, how
(13:46):
can we understand that these patterns and these circumstances are
not the exceptional, especially if you're a woman, like every
woman listening to this podcast, like we have been in
a position of feeling very uncomfort or because of you know,
the paradynamics that gender and age and all the components
of this story might put on the plead that's the
(14:08):
key on how you can sweitch the conversation.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So for me, this story has always been about power.
I think a huge part of it as well is
the stigma that everyone has that you know, the general
public has about sex workers, and even just two girls
that I've spoken to the way they try to kind
(14:32):
of get this out there and try to get people
to listen for quite a long time, but just really
felt like nobody took them seriously or like there was
a real sense that like, well why did you go
on the photo shoot? And it was like they never
they felt like they would never listen to from the start.
And so for me, those have been the two most
important things to get across that kind of being a
(14:54):
sex worker doesn't make you any less of a victim
or any less susceptible to this, and that this is
really about power. And I guess with that in mind,
do you have any specific advice about how I can
frame that in this podcast and what to keep in mind.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Everything can be boiled down to the importance of bringing
honor to victims and how actually, when you talk to survivors,
what they really need is that recognition from their community
or the society that you know, the rights that they've
been deprived by their perpetrators are now being restated by
(15:30):
being believed. And like, we know why this was possible, right,
We know about the power imbalance, we know about the stigma,
and yet you know there are human beings that are
still the humanized in the way that they experience these
issues because of the stereotypes around sex workers in this case.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So if you're telling a new story about the way
we talk about survivors, repeat the human aspect of the
person that has been affected by this, and I think
that will supporting helping people to remember that like, hey,
this is not this individual's.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Fault, showing the systemic, institutional like societal impact of this
issue and not the individual one, not this person that
made this choice, but all of us and how we
all contributed to turning a blind eye.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
As for how to get justice for the women in
our story, it was heard that first put me onto
the idea that it doesn't always have to be through
the courts.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
When it comes to sexual violence, we tend to focus
on achieving justice through justice systems, but unfortunately we know
that when it comes to survivors, there's a very high
chance of not experiencing any form of justice through normal
institutional systems. And so we also know that what a
survivor or victim needs is often opposed to the requirements
(16:51):
of legal proceedings. Social acknowledgement and support, power and control
over their stories in a way that they can share
in their own terms, and also control over the exposure
that they have when it comes to the trauma that
they experience. And if we heal that relationship through believing
(17:12):
in a person to giving them a platform to actually
share their stories in a way that is not traumatizing
it it's liberating. It really can bring a sense of
justice to the person that is doing the talking. The
media can have a role and a power in giving
a victim or a survivor the sense of justice that
(17:35):
they need by just showing that they believe in them,
giving them a platform and giving them their voice to
say this happened to me. This is the way it
impacted me, and people might believe it or might not
believe it. But if we represent people's stories in a
way that they're happy with, they know it's acre and
(17:57):
they know it brings them justice because it sures the
reality of this cave of the issue, then I think
there is a comftability in that there is a comfortability
in having played the party, in giving the vice, and
that's what you're doing with your podcast.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
This final message from Kiara and Zeno really resonated with
me that telling this story and getting it out there
could be a form of justice. It was this motivation
that I held on to throughout reporting on this story. Really,
it's what fueled me since I started out as a
journalist telling stories about women and stories about power and
how sometimes that power is abused, stories that can make
(18:42):
a difference just by being told. Thanks for joining us
on the first bonus episode of The Bunny Trap. We've
got two more bonus episodes for you. Next time, you'll
hear more about me, my background in reporting on stories
about women and the sex industry, and how that led
(19:02):
to the fateful email landing in my inbox, the one
that kicked off this whole series. We contacted Luis Gomez
multiple times for comment, but we never heard back. He
has not been charged with any crimes and is presumed
(19:23):
innocent under the law. We also sought comment from Playboy USA.
They declined our requests for an interview, but stated that
they asked their licensees to blacklist the photographer mentioned in
this series and that they prohibit paid to play the
practice of charging models to appear in magazines. The Bunny
(19:47):
Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel, visit
novel the audio. The show is hosted by me Ellie Flynn.
You can find me on social media by searching my
name That's Ellie Flynn f l Y double N. This
series is produced by Eleana Biggs and this episode is
produced by Malia Sortland, additional production from Lee Meyer and
(20:11):
Saskia Collette. The editors are Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell Are.
Executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management
from Scherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and
scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by
Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs and Max O'Brien, original music composed
(20:33):
and performed by Jak Long, and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,
Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed
by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, creative director of Development
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Novel m
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