December 17, 2024 • 23 mins
Why did the glamour models send the email to Ellie? Ellie is interviewed by editor Georgia Moodie about her previous work and background.
The Bunny Trap is produced by Novel.
For more from Novel visit novel.audio
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Novel.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I began reporting for The Bunny Trap way back in
twenty twenty when I got an email from a group
of glamour models in the UK. They wanted to make
known the allegations of abuse at the hands of the
photographer Luis Gomez. That email is what started this whole investigation.
Reporting on it has been a wild ride. That's been
(00:38):
unlike any other story I've worked on before. With the
journalist of the Apocalypse, it had highs.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
When was the last time I had a creditor?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I have never had a critics done by This is
my debut and Low's should think we should leave.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I think we should even.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Come back because we're going really weird vibes.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
And investor wormholes. It's been so hard to get people
to talk. We've tried to get in touch with one
hundred and eighty nine people, Oh my god, from sort
of the international magazine world.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And out of those one hundred and eighty nine people,
how many wanted to talk.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Two?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well there's.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
But despite all that, this series was not my first rodeo.
In the previous Bonus episode, you heard me talk to
charity organization heard about how I went about reporting on
this story. In this episode, it's time for you to
get to know me a little better.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Why I'm drawn to stories.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Like these, what work I've done in the past that
fed into this investigation, and why the women in this
series sought my help in the first place. I'm Ellie
Flynn and from the team at Novel. This is The
Bunny Trap Bonus episode two. Why joining me now is
(02:18):
someone to pepper me with questions because it would probably
be a bit weird if I tried to interview myself.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Hi, Ellie, thanks so much for being up for being
on the other side of the microphone and talking about
your work.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Georgian Moody is one of the editors of The Bunny Trap,
and she's here in the studio with me.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Maybe we should start with the basics. What made you
want to be an injasically journalist in the first place.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So I have always wanted to be a journalist since
I can remember. To be honest, I think before I
even fully understood what it was, I remember my mum
saying to me when I was quite young, that I
would make it a journalist. I think that's just because
I was really annoying and asked non stock questions and
was just incredibly noisy, and so it was something that starts.
I liked writing when I was young, so I was like, Okay,
(03:02):
I guess I'm going to be a journalist. Without knowing
really what that even meant. I went to journalism school
and found myself being drawn towards investigations. I think it
comes from that same nosiness that I've had since I
was a child, where I love digging into things. Was
something as an add up asking questions, picking at it,
(03:22):
picking at it, picking at it, and trying to get
to the bottom of something.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And so what was the first investigation you worked on?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So the first big investigation I did was looking at
rent for sex arrangements in the UK, which is where
a landlord would offer a free or subsidized accommodation to
tenants in exchange for sexual favors. And it was obviously
a really really exploitative practice and it was really awful.
(03:50):
But I first came across it in a local news
article where some journalists I think from Kent, which is
a region in the UK, had found that they there
were adverts on a website advertising these kind of arrangements,
and I remember being really shocked by it. But also
thinking well, if it's happening in Kent, it must be
(04:13):
happening in other places. How big is this? How much
is it happening all over the UK? But the other
question I had was, well, as anyone taking them up,
is anyone actually having to enter into these arrangements because
they've got no alternative? And so that's what I went
to investigate, and that was my first documentary.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Ellie, this is an opportunity for you to blow your
own trumpet? God, is there a career achievement that you're
most proud of?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I there was a law changed after the Rent for
Sex documentary that I did. At the time of the
documentary for sex arrangements were not specifically a criminal offense.
There was a technicality that meant that it could be
prosecuted under already existing but there had been no prosecutions
and it was quite complicated. And after the documentary went
(05:05):
now and sort of increased pressure from campaign groups and
more reporting on it as an issue, eventually a law
was introduced specifically making room for sex arrangements at criminal offense.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Was it called the Elief Flynn law.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
It was not called the Ellif Flyn law, but maybe
I should campaign for that sort of sounds like I'm
a perpetrators, so maybe not, actually no, yeah, maybe you
don't want Yeah. I think more broadly, I feel really
really proud to have been able to give a voice
to people who may not be heard otherwise, and I
(05:36):
think getting that out to a broad audience and they're
being impact as a result of it is something that
I'll always feel really really proud of.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
A lot of your work has looked at issues like
in that series and in our series about women and
power and sex. Why do you think you're drawn to
those issues in particular?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I think unfortunately, those issues are just so prevalent, and
it just feels like they come up time and time again,
and I feel like, no matter how much journalists like
me or organizations like the ones that we've heard from
in this series kind of bang the drama and do
what they can to try and change things, there is
a cultural problem. I think that means that violence against
(06:22):
women and girls all over the world is a huge,
huge problem, and so these stories are happening everywhere, all
over the world all the time, and I've just always
felt like it's really important to try and highlight that.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I know you've also looked at the rise of Only Fans,
a site that made it possible for so many people
to enter the sex industry and create content and make
money from their home. Can you tell me about that work.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, So I did a documentary in twenty nineteen looking
into this relatively new platform that people didn't really know
very much about called OnlyFans, and it was just before
the pandemic, which was when Only Fans really really blew up,
and it was this sort of quite new, unique thing,
(07:12):
but people were making insane amounts of money on it,
and I mean that was initially what we wanted to
look into, was sort of like, what is this thing?
How much money are people actually making and is that
true across the board? And what we found in our
documentary is that, yes, it is possible to make a
huge amount of money on OnlyFans for a very very
(07:34):
few number of models, and actually the vast majority of
people who start using OnlyFans make very little money, you know,
don't make ends meet with it at all. And so
then you're looking at all of these other kind of
streams of thing come and that's partly what we look
into in this series is sort of the opportunities that
then come to people in that world, and the exploitation
(07:56):
that comes with those supposed opportunities. It's a really, really
taboo subjet. I think people don't want to talk about it.
I think people have a lot of judgment for the
people who use only fans, particularly women who use only fans.
I think there's a lot of shame attached to it,
and I've always wanted to destigmatize that while also being
realistic about the pitfalls, and I think a lot of
the women in this series have been realistic about the
(08:18):
pitfalls of only fans.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Of the sex industry.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
It is rife with exploitation, and I don't think we
should shy away from that, but I think we do
need to change the narrative where the women who are
in this industry aren't being shamed for being a part
of it.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Do you think it was your history of reporting on
the sex industry and women in the industry that meant
that the women at the heart of our series, The
Bunny Trap contacted you.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I think there is understandably quite a lot of distrust
of the media among sex workers, among women who use OnlyFans,
and I think that's understandable when you look at some
of the reporting that's been done. But I think the
documentary that we made back in twenty nineteen tried really
hard to make it without judgment and without stigma, and
(09:11):
was just you know, looking into what only fans is
when it works, when it doesn't, what are the issues?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
What should we be aware of?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And I think that gave me a level of credibility,
and I think that it enabled the people that I
then came to meet in this series to trust me.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Do you remember what was going through your mind when
you first open the email from the UK models at
the hand of this story.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I think any tip or story you get, you approach
with a level of cynicism because you have to, because
I get so many stories that aren't stories or our
opinions or just have no evidence behind them. So there's
never a moment of like, oh my god, because you
can't allow yourself as an investive journalist to have that moment,
(09:59):
because you have to say, Okay, well this sounds interesting,
but where's the evidence, Like where do I go from here?
I remember reading it and thinking, God, this sounds awful.
If it's true, it's quite shocking, and I went off,
and I looked up Luis Gomez and the first thing
I saw was all of these Playboy covers posted on
his Instagram, Playboy cover after Playboy cover after Playboy cover.
So instantly I was like, well, this looks kind of legit,
(10:22):
and that was kind of what set me off. I
was like, well, he does appear to be working for
Playboy on the surface. They say they've got models, they
say they've got screenshots, they say they've got conversations. I
was like, right, okay, let's see what you've got. And
you know, next thing you know, I've been sent a
trove of evidence from the models.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
One of the things we cover in The Bunny Trap
is that, to the best of your knowledge, you're the
only journalists that responded to their call out. Why do
you think that happened? Why do you think other journalists
didn't also follow this lead.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I don't know for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I know how many tips day a news desk gets,
and you know, there's a world where it just happened
to get lost by all of them. And I think,
you know, I'm sure that does happen all the time,
but a big part of me questions if it's because
of the world that these women work in. That is
something I've always wondered, you know, if they worked in
(11:18):
a different industry, almost any other industry, and this person
seemed to have the level of power and credibility that
Luis seemed to have on the surface, would it have
been at least looked into. And I think that's what
I found really shocking is that it wasn't even looked into.
There wasn't even an initial conversation or a request for
(11:39):
the evidence.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
It just never got picked up.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It never got responded to, not even a cursory look
as far as I'm aware.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So in the last episode, we looked at how we
can best care for contributors who were interviewing about sexual abuse.
But it's also tough on you, as the reporter and
interviewer to kind of keep asking people questions about something
which is inherently difficult and often traumatic. How do you
(12:29):
look after yourself when you're investigating a series with heavy
subject matter like this one.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I think I am quite good at compartmentalizing almost where
I'm able to separate myself from the things that I'm investigating.
I think that a journalist's role is to give people
space to tell their stories and to ask questions that
enable those stories to get out to the public. When
(12:58):
I'm doing an interview, I really try not to make
it about me. I try and ask questions that just
give the person I'm interviewing space to tell me how
they feel, tell me their experiences, and tell me what's
happened in a way that they feel comfortable doing. And
my role is to ask those questions. I just always
(13:20):
remind myself that it is not about me. I've got
a job to do that. My job is to get
the facts, check the facts, listen to someone, give them
space to tell their story and get their story out
to the public. And so I'm quite pragmatic about it,
and I think that helps take the emotion out slightly
on my end.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
If there is emotion and I know there have been
things as part of this investigation which have been upsetting,
does that sometimes help motivate you to keep doing the job.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And it's always kind of actually after the interviews or
it's more about how those stories are then going to
be represented or told. Like I think I've I find
myself becoming a lot more emotionally invested in the process.
After an interview than I do when I'm there in
that moment speaking to someone, because it's so important to
(14:10):
get it right, and I really want to be responsible
with my journalism, and that can sometimes feel like a
heavy burden because it's important. And then I think that
that emotion definitely becomes a driving force in terms of
the stories that I'm investigating, the things I want to expose,
the stories I want to tell, but also in trying
(14:31):
as much as I can to make sure that I
get it right when it comes to putting these things
out in the world.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
In an interview, I totally hear what you're saying about
it not being about you, But there are moments in
this series where you're being a very real human person
when someone that you're speaking to is crying. I guess
I wonder what that's like for you, Ellie the human
being and then Ellie the investigative journalist, and whether those
(15:01):
things are in conflict or sometimes work together.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, I think they always work together. Of course, if
you're in a room and someone is visibly upset and
crying like it's I think impossible not to be affected
by that or to not feel like you want to
give them a hug or you want to, and you know,
often what I'll do is I'll say, let's just like
turn this off for a second, as have a moment
to take a breather, Let's not ask any more questions.
(15:27):
Give someone the time to kind of gather themselves until
they feel ready to speak again. And it's in those
moments that I sort of turn off my journalism, I
suppose I and I will just be there to sort
of make sure they're okay and try and support them.
And I think that that works hand in hand with
being a good investigative journalist, because, especially if the stories
(15:47):
you're investigating have a human element, you have to be
a human to be able to tell them effectively.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
What do you think are the qualities that makes a
good invasicative journalist?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, it's funny because I think actually the qualities that
I think make a good investigative journalist are not always
the qualities that you would associate with it. I think
probably if you'd asked me years ago, I'd have thought
it would need to be someone who's, you know, really
really organized, and then all the things that I am,
in all honesty, I have to work really really hard
(16:21):
to make sure that I am organized but what I
am is tenacious, I guess, and I don't let things go,
and I will keep going and keep going and keep
going until I get to the bottom of something. And
you know, the other aspect of it is that I
think I do have a motive human side, which I
bring into all of my investigations. And I think especially
(16:42):
because the things that I investigate tend to be issues
that affect women or you know that they look at
social injustices, and so I think the driving force for
those kind of investigations always has to come from a
place of realizing that it's really important and wanting change.
It's not all about kind of like putting complex data
(17:02):
into a spreadsheet and trying to get to the bottom
of it. And there are brilliant investative journalists who do
that kind of stuff, but it's not my bag.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
What are some of the lessons that you'll take away
from working on this story.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I think one of the struggles that we had in
making this was knowing when to keep your cards close
to your chest and when to reach out for more information.
And that's always a dance that you have to do
when you're looking into something, because you need contacts for
information and you need to reach out to people and
see what they know and see if you can get
(17:35):
any intelligence on whatever you're looking into. And that's a
really important part of being a journalist. On the flip side,
when you are doing an investigation like this and it
is very sensitive and there is risk involved, you also
want to keep your cards very close to your chest,
and so you don't necessarily want that person to know
who you are or what you're doing. And I think
that was something that was always a struggle. And I
(17:57):
think knowing when to reach out to people and when
to keep quiet is really difficult. And I think that, yeah,
that's something that I will I'll always come up against
and that I think I'll probably learn from in this.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I know you've worked in TV as well as audio podcasts.
Is there something you think that makes this story more
fitting for audio.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think the complexity of it makes it more fitting
to audio. I think that it gives us the space
to really dig into some of those thorny issues, for example,
around exactly what Luis's connection is to Playboy. And I
think that if you're making a one hour documentary, you
just don't have the space to really really dig into
those things.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
This is really complicated.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
This world is complicated, so I think that that complexity
lent itself to audio, and I think people feel that
it's easier to talk and to open up and to
share their stories when there's not a camera. Think think
the contributors sometimes felt quite relieved that it was audio.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, I think there's something people often use the word
intimate about audio, and I think going into a room
where we're just hearing you speaking to a woman about
what happened, like, I think that really brings the listener
with us into that space in a way that I
love about audio and podcasts. Yeah, the Vanni Trap is
(19:25):
finally out in the world, which we're also excited by.
What are you hoping that listeners to this series take
away from it?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I'm hoping that listeners have a bit more understanding and
compassion for people who work in the sex industry. I
want to challenge the misconception that if you work in
this industry and if you go into that room to
do whatever it is you're planning to do with whoever
it is that you're going to be in there with,
(19:57):
that that in some way opens you up to whatever
can had happened Because that's just not true. Consent is
always important, and you might be consenting to doing some
things that are sexually explicit, some things, you know, sexual acts,
maybe even sometimes, but if you were drawing a line
somewhere and you were saying, I don't want to go
(20:17):
any further than this, than that line should always be respected.
And just because whatever you were doing up until that
line may have been provocative or sexual in some way,
it doesn't make the line any more blurred. And I
think that that's really at the heart of this and
that is I think the most important thing for people
(20:37):
to take away from this series. Like, this series is
nuanced and complicated, but that part of it shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And what about the women at the heart of this story?
What are you hoping that they take away from listening
to this series.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I mean, it's been a long, long road.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I guess I hope that they heard, and I guess
I hope that they feel this is some sort of justice.
I think that they're just relieved that it's out, and
I hope they know how much at work went into
getting it out there and how important this story was
to me as well on a personal level. It's always
been really important, so I hope that they know that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Well, Ellie, thank you so much for putting up with
being on the other side of the night today.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah it's weird. Well I didn't grill you, so yeah,
no hard questions.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Thanks for joining us for the second bonus episode of
The Bunny Trap. We've got one more bonus episode for you.
Next time, you'll hear some trade secrets from a mother
daughter duo who both worked as Playboy photographers. They tell
us the secret to a good glamour sheet and what
shooting for Playboy was like in its heyday. Hint it
might have involved some passying at the Playboy mansion. We
(22:07):
contacted Luis Gomez multiple times for comment, but we never
heard back. He has not been charged with any crimes
and is presumed innocent under the law. We also sought
comment from Playboy USA. They declined our requests for an interview,
but stated that they asked their licensees to blacklist the
photographer mentioned in this series and that they prohibit paid
(22:28):
to play the practice of charging models to appear in magazines.
The Bunny Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel,
visit Novel the audio. The show is hosted by me
Ellie Flynn. You can find me on social media by
(22:49):
searching my name. That's Ellie E double l I E
Flynn fly double N. This series is produced by Eleanor
Biggs and this episode is produced by Amalia Sortland, additional
production from Lee Meyer and Saskia Collette. The editors are
Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell are executive producers and Max
O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management from Scherie Houston and
(23:13):
Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson
and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs
and Max O'Brien.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Original music composed.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
And performed by Jake Long and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,
Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed
by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, Creative Director of Development
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Novel
Novel.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I began reporting for The Bunny Trap way back in
twenty twenty when I got an email from a group
of glamour models in the UK. They wanted to make
known the allegations of abuse at the hands of the
photographer Luis Gomez. That email is what started this whole investigation.
Reporting on it has been a wild ride. That's been
(00:38):
unlike any other story I've worked on before. With the
journalist of the Apocalypse, it had highs.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
When was the last time I had a creditor?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I have never had a critics done by This is
my debut and Low's should think we should leave.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I think we should even.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Come back because we're going really weird vibes.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
And investor wormholes. It's been so hard to get people
to talk. We've tried to get in touch with one
hundred and eighty nine people, Oh my god, from sort
of the international magazine world.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And out of those one hundred and eighty nine people,
how many wanted to talk.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Two?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well there's.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
But despite all that, this series was not my first rodeo.
In the previous Bonus episode, you heard me talk to
charity organization heard about how I went about reporting on
this story. In this episode, it's time for you to
get to know me a little better.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Why I'm drawn to stories.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Like these, what work I've done in the past that
fed into this investigation, and why the women in this
series sought my help in the first place. I'm Ellie
Flynn and from the team at Novel. This is The
Bunny Trap Bonus episode two. Why joining me now is
(02:18):
someone to pepper me with questions because it would probably
be a bit weird if I tried to interview myself.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Hi, Ellie, thanks so much for being up for being
on the other side of the microphone and talking about
your work.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Georgian Moody is one of the editors of The Bunny Trap,
and she's here in the studio with me.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Maybe we should start with the basics. What made you
want to be an injasically journalist in the first place.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So I have always wanted to be a journalist since
I can remember. To be honest, I think before I
even fully understood what it was, I remember my mum
saying to me when I was quite young, that I
would make it a journalist. I think that's just because
I was really annoying and asked non stock questions and
was just incredibly noisy, and so it was something that starts.
I liked writing when I was young, so I was like, Okay,
(03:02):
I guess I'm going to be a journalist. Without knowing
really what that even meant. I went to journalism school
and found myself being drawn towards investigations. I think it
comes from that same nosiness that I've had since I
was a child, where I love digging into things. Was
something as an add up asking questions, picking at it,
(03:22):
picking at it, picking at it, and trying to get
to the bottom of something.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
And so what was the first investigation you worked on?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So the first big investigation I did was looking at
rent for sex arrangements in the UK, which is where
a landlord would offer a free or subsidized accommodation to
tenants in exchange for sexual favors. And it was obviously
a really really exploitative practice and it was really awful.
(03:50):
But I first came across it in a local news
article where some journalists I think from Kent, which is
a region in the UK, had found that they there
were adverts on a website advertising these kind of arrangements,
and I remember being really shocked by it. But also
thinking well, if it's happening in Kent, it must be
(04:13):
happening in other places. How big is this? How much
is it happening all over the UK? But the other
question I had was, well, as anyone taking them up,
is anyone actually having to enter into these arrangements because
they've got no alternative? And so that's what I went
to investigate, and that was my first documentary.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Ellie, this is an opportunity for you to blow your
own trumpet? God, is there a career achievement that you're
most proud of?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I there was a law changed after the Rent for
Sex documentary that I did. At the time of the
documentary for sex arrangements were not specifically a criminal offense.
There was a technicality that meant that it could be
prosecuted under already existing but there had been no prosecutions
and it was quite complicated. And after the documentary went
(05:05):
now and sort of increased pressure from campaign groups and
more reporting on it as an issue, eventually a law
was introduced specifically making room for sex arrangements at criminal offense.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Was it called the Elief Flynn law.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
It was not called the Ellif Flyn law, but maybe
I should campaign for that sort of sounds like I'm
a perpetrators, so maybe not, actually no, yeah, maybe you
don't want Yeah. I think more broadly, I feel really
really proud to have been able to give a voice
to people who may not be heard otherwise, and I
(05:36):
think getting that out to a broad audience and they're
being impact as a result of it is something that
I'll always feel really really proud of.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
A lot of your work has looked at issues like
in that series and in our series about women and
power and sex. Why do you think you're drawn to
those issues in particular?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I think unfortunately, those issues are just so prevalent, and
it just feels like they come up time and time again,
and I feel like, no matter how much journalists like
me or organizations like the ones that we've heard from
in this series kind of bang the drama and do
what they can to try and change things, there is
a cultural problem. I think that means that violence against
(06:22):
women and girls all over the world is a huge,
huge problem, and so these stories are happening everywhere, all
over the world all the time, and I've just always
felt like it's really important to try and highlight that.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I know you've also looked at the rise of Only Fans,
a site that made it possible for so many people
to enter the sex industry and create content and make
money from their home. Can you tell me about that work.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, So I did a documentary in twenty nineteen looking
into this relatively new platform that people didn't really know
very much about called OnlyFans, and it was just before
the pandemic, which was when Only Fans really really blew up,
and it was this sort of quite new, unique thing,
(07:12):
but people were making insane amounts of money on it,
and I mean that was initially what we wanted to
look into, was sort of like, what is this thing?
How much money are people actually making and is that
true across the board? And what we found in our
documentary is that, yes, it is possible to make a
huge amount of money on OnlyFans for a very very
(07:34):
few number of models, and actually the vast majority of
people who start using OnlyFans make very little money, you know,
don't make ends meet with it at all. And so
then you're looking at all of these other kind of
streams of thing come and that's partly what we look
into in this series is sort of the opportunities that
then come to people in that world, and the exploitation
(07:56):
that comes with those supposed opportunities. It's a really, really
taboo subjet. I think people don't want to talk about it.
I think people have a lot of judgment for the
people who use only fans, particularly women who use only fans.
I think there's a lot of shame attached to it,
and I've always wanted to destigmatize that while also being
realistic about the pitfalls, and I think a lot of
the women in this series have been realistic about the
(08:18):
pitfalls of only fans.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Of the sex industry.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
It is rife with exploitation, and I don't think we
should shy away from that, but I think we do
need to change the narrative where the women who are
in this industry aren't being shamed for being a part
of it.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Do you think it was your history of reporting on
the sex industry and women in the industry that meant
that the women at the heart of our series, The
Bunny Trap contacted you.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I think there is understandably quite a lot of distrust
of the media among sex workers, among women who use OnlyFans,
and I think that's understandable when you look at some
of the reporting that's been done. But I think the
documentary that we made back in twenty nineteen tried really
hard to make it without judgment and without stigma, and
(09:11):
was just you know, looking into what only fans is
when it works, when it doesn't, what are the issues?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
What should we be aware of?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And I think that gave me a level of credibility,
and I think that it enabled the people that I
then came to meet in this series to trust me.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Do you remember what was going through your mind when
you first open the email from the UK models at
the hand of this story.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I think any tip or story you get, you approach
with a level of cynicism because you have to, because
I get so many stories that aren't stories or our
opinions or just have no evidence behind them. So there's
never a moment of like, oh my god, because you
can't allow yourself as an investive journalist to have that moment,
(09:59):
because you have to say, Okay, well this sounds interesting,
but where's the evidence, Like where do I go from here?
I remember reading it and thinking, God, this sounds awful.
If it's true, it's quite shocking, and I went off,
and I looked up Luis Gomez and the first thing
I saw was all of these Playboy covers posted on
his Instagram, Playboy cover after Playboy cover after Playboy cover.
So instantly I was like, well, this looks kind of legit,
(10:22):
and that was kind of what set me off. I
was like, well, he does appear to be working for
Playboy on the surface. They say they've got models, they
say they've got screenshots, they say they've got conversations. I
was like, right, okay, let's see what you've got. And
you know, next thing you know, I've been sent a
trove of evidence from the models.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
One of the things we cover in The Bunny Trap
is that, to the best of your knowledge, you're the
only journalists that responded to their call out. Why do
you think that happened? Why do you think other journalists
didn't also follow this lead.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
I don't know for sure.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I know how many tips day a news desk gets,
and you know, there's a world where it just happened
to get lost by all of them. And I think,
you know, I'm sure that does happen all the time,
but a big part of me questions if it's because
of the world that these women work in. That is
something I've always wondered, you know, if they worked in
(11:18):
a different industry, almost any other industry, and this person
seemed to have the level of power and credibility that
Luis seemed to have on the surface, would it have
been at least looked into. And I think that's what
I found really shocking is that it wasn't even looked into.
There wasn't even an initial conversation or a request for
(11:39):
the evidence.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
It just never got picked up.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It never got responded to, not even a cursory look
as far as I'm aware.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So in the last episode, we looked at how we
can best care for contributors who were interviewing about sexual abuse.
But it's also tough on you, as the reporter and
interviewer to kind of keep asking people questions about something
which is inherently difficult and often traumatic. How do you
(12:29):
look after yourself when you're investigating a series with heavy
subject matter like this one.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I think I am quite good at compartmentalizing almost where
I'm able to separate myself from the things that I'm investigating.
I think that a journalist's role is to give people
space to tell their stories and to ask questions that
enable those stories to get out to the public. When
(12:58):
I'm doing an interview, I really try not to make
it about me. I try and ask questions that just
give the person I'm interviewing space to tell me how
they feel, tell me their experiences, and tell me what's
happened in a way that they feel comfortable doing. And
my role is to ask those questions. I just always
(13:20):
remind myself that it is not about me. I've got
a job to do that. My job is to get
the facts, check the facts, listen to someone, give them
space to tell their story and get their story out
to the public. And so I'm quite pragmatic about it,
and I think that helps take the emotion out slightly
on my end.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
If there is emotion and I know there have been
things as part of this investigation which have been upsetting,
does that sometimes help motivate you to keep doing the job.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And it's always kind of actually after the interviews or
it's more about how those stories are then going to
be represented or told. Like I think I've I find
myself becoming a lot more emotionally invested in the process.
After an interview than I do when I'm there in
that moment speaking to someone, because it's so important to
(14:10):
get it right, and I really want to be responsible
with my journalism, and that can sometimes feel like a
heavy burden because it's important. And then I think that
that emotion definitely becomes a driving force in terms of
the stories that I'm investigating, the things I want to expose,
the stories I want to tell, but also in trying
(14:31):
as much as I can to make sure that I
get it right when it comes to putting these things
out in the world.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
In an interview, I totally hear what you're saying about
it not being about you, But there are moments in
this series where you're being a very real human person
when someone that you're speaking to is crying. I guess
I wonder what that's like for you, Ellie the human
being and then Ellie the investigative journalist, and whether those
(15:01):
things are in conflict or sometimes work together.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, I think they always work together. Of course, if
you're in a room and someone is visibly upset and
crying like it's I think impossible not to be affected
by that or to not feel like you want to
give them a hug or you want to, and you know,
often what I'll do is I'll say, let's just like
turn this off for a second, as have a moment
to take a breather, Let's not ask any more questions.
(15:27):
Give someone the time to kind of gather themselves until
they feel ready to speak again. And it's in those
moments that I sort of turn off my journalism, I
suppose I and I will just be there to sort
of make sure they're okay and try and support them.
And I think that that works hand in hand with
being a good investigative journalist, because, especially if the stories
(15:47):
you're investigating have a human element, you have to be
a human to be able to tell them effectively.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
What do you think are the qualities that makes a
good invasicative journalist?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, it's funny because I think actually the qualities that
I think make a good investigative journalist are not always
the qualities that you would associate with it. I think
probably if you'd asked me years ago, I'd have thought
it would need to be someone who's, you know, really
really organized, and then all the things that I am,
in all honesty, I have to work really really hard
(16:21):
to make sure that I am organized but what I
am is tenacious, I guess, and I don't let things go,
and I will keep going and keep going and keep
going until I get to the bottom of something. And
you know, the other aspect of it is that I
think I do have a motive human side, which I
bring into all of my investigations. And I think especially
(16:42):
because the things that I investigate tend to be issues
that affect women or you know that they look at
social injustices, and so I think the driving force for
those kind of investigations always has to come from a
place of realizing that it's really important and wanting change.
It's not all about kind of like putting complex data
(17:02):
into a spreadsheet and trying to get to the bottom
of it. And there are brilliant investative journalists who do
that kind of stuff, but it's not my bag.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
What are some of the lessons that you'll take away
from working on this story.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I think one of the struggles that we had in
making this was knowing when to keep your cards close
to your chest and when to reach out for more information.
And that's always a dance that you have to do
when you're looking into something, because you need contacts for
information and you need to reach out to people and
see what they know and see if you can get
(17:35):
any intelligence on whatever you're looking into. And that's a
really important part of being a journalist. On the flip side,
when you are doing an investigation like this and it
is very sensitive and there is risk involved, you also
want to keep your cards very close to your chest,
and so you don't necessarily want that person to know
who you are or what you're doing. And I think
that was something that was always a struggle. And I
(17:57):
think knowing when to reach out to people and when
to keep quiet is really difficult. And I think that, yeah,
that's something that I will I'll always come up against
and that I think I'll probably learn from in this.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I know you've worked in TV as well as audio podcasts.
Is there something you think that makes this story more
fitting for audio.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think the complexity of it makes it more fitting
to audio. I think that it gives us the space
to really dig into some of those thorny issues, for example,
around exactly what Luis's connection is to Playboy. And I
think that if you're making a one hour documentary, you
just don't have the space to really really dig into
those things.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
This is really complicated.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
This world is complicated, so I think that that complexity
lent itself to audio, and I think people feel that
it's easier to talk and to open up and to
share their stories when there's not a camera. Think think
the contributors sometimes felt quite relieved that it was audio.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, I think there's something people often use the word
intimate about audio, and I think going into a room
where we're just hearing you speaking to a woman about
what happened, like, I think that really brings the listener
with us into that space in a way that I
love about audio and podcasts. Yeah, the Vanni Trap is
(19:25):
finally out in the world, which we're also excited by.
What are you hoping that listeners to this series take
away from it?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I'm hoping that listeners have a bit more understanding and
compassion for people who work in the sex industry. I
want to challenge the misconception that if you work in
this industry and if you go into that room to
do whatever it is you're planning to do with whoever
it is that you're going to be in there with,
(19:57):
that that in some way opens you up to whatever
can had happened Because that's just not true. Consent is
always important, and you might be consenting to doing some
things that are sexually explicit, some things, you know, sexual acts,
maybe even sometimes, but if you were drawing a line
somewhere and you were saying, I don't want to go
(20:17):
any further than this, than that line should always be respected.
And just because whatever you were doing up until that
line may have been provocative or sexual in some way,
it doesn't make the line any more blurred. And I
think that that's really at the heart of this and
that is I think the most important thing for people
(20:37):
to take away from this series. Like, this series is
nuanced and complicated, but that part of it shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And what about the women at the heart of this story?
What are you hoping that they take away from listening
to this series.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I mean, it's been a long, long road.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I guess I hope that they heard, and I guess
I hope that they feel this is some sort of justice.
I think that they're just relieved that it's out, and
I hope they know how much at work went into
getting it out there and how important this story was
to me as well on a personal level. It's always
been really important, so I hope that they know that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Well, Ellie, thank you so much for putting up with
being on the other side of the night today.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah it's weird. Well I didn't grill you, so yeah,
no hard questions.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Thanks for joining us for the second bonus episode of
The Bunny Trap. We've got one more bonus episode for you.
Next time, you'll hear some trade secrets from a mother
daughter duo who both worked as Playboy photographers. They tell
us the secret to a good glamour sheet and what
shooting for Playboy was like in its heyday. Hint it
might have involved some passying at the Playboy mansion. We
(22:07):
contacted Luis Gomez multiple times for comment, but we never
heard back. He has not been charged with any crimes
and is presumed innocent under the law. We also sought
comment from Playboy USA. They declined our requests for an interview,
but stated that they asked their licensees to blacklist the
photographer mentioned in this series and that they prohibit paid
(22:28):
to play the practice of charging models to appear in magazines.
The Bunny Trap is produced by Novel. For more from Novel,
visit Novel the audio. The show is hosted by me
Ellie Flynn. You can find me on social media by
(22:49):
searching my name. That's Ellie E double l I E
Flynn fly double N. This series is produced by Eleanor
Biggs and this episode is produced by Amalia Sortland, additional
production from Lee Meyer and Saskia Collette. The editors are
Georgia Moody and Austin Mitchell are executive producers and Max
O'Brien and Craig Strachan. Production management from Scherie Houston and
(23:13):
Charlotte Wolf. Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson
and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Eleanor Biggs
and Max O'Brien.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Original music composed.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
And performed by Jake Long and additional production by Nicholas Alexander,
Louisa Gerstein and Daniel Kempson. The series artwork was designed
by Christina Limcole Willard Foxtons, Creative Director of Development
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Novel
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