August 26, 2025 • 19 mins
Nigel Farage has put mass deportations at the centre of his new immigration plan — promising to detain and remove hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers from the UK.
While Reform UK currently has only four MPs, polling suggests they could win the next election and be in a position to implement this.
It's a striking escalation in the rhetoric around immigration — raising the question of whether this marks a turning point in British politics.
Has anything like this been attempted before, is it even possible, and how does it fit into the long, often heated history of immigration policy in the UK?
On this episode of The Fourcast, Cathy Newman is joined by Jacqueline McKenzie, a partner at the human rights law firm Leigh Day who specialises in immigration and asylum cases, and journalist and author David Goodhart who is the head of demography, immigration and integration at the Policy Exchange think tank.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
25 years ago, in the year 2000, the white British population was
about 90% of the British population.
It is now closer to 70%. We've seen a huge demographic
change. But do you do you mind about
that? I mean, what's the problem?
I think that's an enormous problem to to a lot of people, I
think. We're heading back into really
worrying times and also that this is being caused a lot by
(00:25):
politicians and by sections of the media.
Nigel Farage is talking about paying autocratic regimes.
He's talking about dismantling Britain's post war treaties and
fundamental rights, locking up women and children.
I mean, is this who we are as a country?
(00:46):
Hello and welcome to the forecast.
Nigel Farage has put mass deportations at the centre of
his new immigration plan, promising to detain and remove
hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers from the UK.
While Reform currently only have4 MPs, polling suggests they
could win the next election and be in a position to implement
this. It is a striking escalation in
(01:07):
the rhetoric around immigration,raising the question of whether
this marks a real turning point in British politics.
Has anything like this been attempted or is it even
possible? And how does it fit into the
long, often heated history of immigration policy in the UK?
Joining me, Jacqueline Mackenzie, a partner at the
human rights law firm Lee Day, who specialises in immigration
(01:29):
and asylum cases, and journalistand author David Goodhart, who's
written extensively about immigration.
Welcome to you both. David Goodhart, let me start
with you. Do you think the public will see
Nigel Farage's plan as sort of solving a problem more?
Will they view it as sounding a bit bigoted?
(01:49):
Well, the public will be dividedon it, but I think, you know,
given what we've seen recently in opinion polling, how
immigrant, I mean, despite the the kind of sluggishness of the
economy and problems with the NHS, immigration has leapt ahead
once again to be the biggest single worry that people have.
(02:11):
So obviously he's he's tapping into that.
I mean, but obviously this has been building up for years and
years and years. I mean, you know, we, we could
go back to 1997 when we saw a step change in, in rates of
immigration and that. And then then of course, we had
Brexit, which is partly driven by by immigration, the feeling
that free movement was too free in a way that people could come
(02:32):
here and immediately enjoy all the rights of a British citizen.
We had 2019 with, you know, a promise of, you know, getting
Brexit done and, and levelling up and, and controlling
immigration because we now, you know, we're no longer in the EU,
we could control it and, and that didn't happen.
Indeed, we had a huge increase in legal migration.
(02:57):
So we now have kind of the worstworld.
We have huge, huge legal migration.
Obviously it's come down quite alot in in the last year or so,
but we were up to absolutely, you know, extraordinary levels
sort of seven 800,000 a year. And and we have the combined
with that we have the escalatingchannel issue let.
Me, let me bring in Jacqueline McKenzie then here.
(03:18):
Because that's the point, isn't it?
Successive governments have failed on this and now Nigel
Farage steps in and says hey, I can fix it.
No wonder people are listening. Overwhelmingly, people are still
more concerned about, you know, their their lives, you know what
money they have in their pocket,whether they're going to be able
to access health care, whether. They're not.
(03:39):
They're now more concerned aboutimmigration, aren't they?
Well. Well, I haven't seen any formal
opinion polls on this, but we doknow in the last election it
counted as something quite low down the priority list.
Now I I accept that it has risen.
I don't know where it is in terms of, you know, actual
opinion poll information. Top concern according to you Gov
(04:01):
The last opinion poll and now it's now far ahead of the
economy in the NHS and that's the point.
Nigel Farage is responding to that.
Then I think then that's fair enough.
But I think we do have to ask how have we come to a position
where, you know, 100,000 people seeking asylum and there weren't
100,000 people crossing the Channel, but 100,000 people are
(04:23):
seeking asylum because not everybody crosses the Channel.
You know, people come in in other ways.
How is it that that number of people when we know there are
120 million people displaced around the world?
You know, we saw Bangladesh taking a million Rohingyas,
Colombia took in 2 million Venezuelans, etcetera, etcetera.
(04:43):
How is it that that number of people, which is relatively a
small number, certainly less than France and Germany takes in
and when you think we're the 5thlargest economy, how is it that
that has become the main talkingpoint it it is a 40?
646% rise on the same period last year.
Have come across the channel in small boats this year so it's a
(05:04):
big rise isn't it? It's a big, it is a huge rise
and it's because, and it's not the highest number.
We've had higher numbers before and people came in in different
ways, didn't they came in via lorry and under the Eurostar in
all manner of ways. But this is highly visible.
People are coming in in these small boats.
You know, politicians, organisations, some sections of
(05:25):
the media make a big thing of itand they instill fear.
But you think the UK should be able to absorb and and and
tolerate that level? I think the numbers are small
enough for us to be able to do that.
I do accept that there are issues across society.
There was a lack, you know, I'vebeen a school governor.
I mean, there are real pressureson school places, there's
(05:46):
pressure on the NHS and so forth.
But whose fault is it? Is it the small number of people
who come over in those boats? And when I say a small number, a
small number in comparison to numbers of people fleeing
persecution for whatever reason,even I accept that some people
just want a better life. Let me put that back to let me
put that back to David. It's a small number in the
(06:08):
scheme of things. Yeah.
I mean, it is a relatively smallnumber, but it's the visibility
of the channel crossings. I mean, I agree that only about
I think about getting on for 1/2of asylum applications come from
Channel crosses. I mean the rest are there are
still people coming in on lorries and there are also a lot
(06:31):
of people who overstay visas, people who've come in legally
and then claim asylum subsequently.
But I do think, I mean, there isa growing consensus now across
left and right, across the wholeof Europe that our laws that
were that were designed for a different world.
You know, the 1951 convention, the European Convention on Human
(06:54):
Rights, which which adds variousother restrictions that make it
harder to deport people or stop them coming in the 1st place.
These were designed for a world in which very few people moved.
But let me put that to Jacqueline.
Well, some would argue that Refugee Convention is not fit
for purpose, but for a differentreason.
Because there is going to be an argument for people coming here
(07:16):
for reasons outside the convention, IE because they
cannot survive economically, or because of climate justice, or
for all manner of reasons in their current states.
And very often they're moving tocountries which have contributed
to some of the problems in theirown.
David. I mean, I think, you know, most
(07:37):
people in rich countries do not regard themselves as as
responsible for colonialism or imperialism.
You know, that is now many, many, many generations back.
No, I mean, I think, you know, do you want a kind of balanced
evolution of the planet? Do you want balanced
development? Do you know if you do, if you
(07:58):
don't want everybody ending up in Shepherd's Bush or or
Brooklyn, then we need to control this process.
I agree that rich countries should be, you know, generous.
They should. They should create systems that
do allow those people who are genuinely facing persecution.
(08:19):
I mean, there are many authoritarian regimes in the
world and, you know, there are many, you know, opposition
leaders who find themselves, youknow, with a bullet in the head
in a South African hotel, I mean.
David, David, you talk about being generous.
Nigel Farage is talking about paying autocratic regimes.
He's talking about dismantling Britain's post war treaties and
(08:40):
fundamental rights, locking up women and children.
I mean, is this who we are as a country?
Well, I think, you know, it's a response to the facts.
You know, it's a response to this, as I say this, this sort
of collision of the extraordinary high level, high
level of legal immigration and of the the very high visibility.
(09:02):
And I don't just mean the visibility crossing the channel.
I mean, I think, you know, that the, the fact that it's the,
it's the, the hotel in the town where people had their wedding
anniversary and you know, that the, I mean, it's just through
it. It does seem an extraordinary
mistake in a way on the part of the political class to think
(09:23):
that you could just stick a whole lot of, you know, young
men from Afghanistan or whereverin a hotel in the middle of a
small town like Epping and nobody would kind of notice.
And Jacqueline, you know, allegations against male asylum
seekers have fuelled discontent and that's legitimate, isn't it?
I mean, of course, I mean, you know, if there are sex offenders
(09:46):
anywhere, you know, amongst asylum seekers, amongst
refugees, amongst the indigenousBritish population, amongst
white men, then of course that is legitimate cause for concern.
There does seem to be some evidence that there are some
foreign national groups where crime, particularly sex crime
is, is higher than the existing male population.
(10:07):
You'd kind of expect that. I mean, that's sort of, you
know, people coming from very, very traditional societies with
very different attitudes to women suddenly find themselves
in society where, you know, in in London with, you know, women
not wearing very many clothes inthe hot weather.
This is kind of, you know, this is not what they're used to.
And some some men these places that are behaving very bad.
(10:29):
Well, I mean, I mean, that's so dangerous.
I mean, that's so dangerous. You know, to castigate the
entire group was castigating an entire group of people.
And in fact, in the in the statistics that was put out
recently by Ministry of Justice and confirmed by the Home Office
about who it is that's in prison.
You know, when there was this discussion about foreign
national prisoners of which we found, you know, there were 3 to
(10:52):
4000 of them. You know, we found that and,
and, and very often and this discussion about communities and
culture. And so we're often talking about
Muslim men or Asian men, particularly South Asian men.
And we found that they are underrepresented.
Of all the groups, they were themost underrepresented in the
prison population. So yes, there are problems in
(11:14):
that community. There's absolutely no doubt
about it. We sat and watched the stories
about grooming in Rotherham and Oldham and Bolton.
But we but we can't go around accusing entire communities.
We can't. We just can't do that.
I'm not doing that. I mean, but it's certainly not
the case that Muslim men are notunder represented in British
prisons. It may be the Indian men are
(11:38):
Chinese men. The term was Asian men, the.
I, I don't think, well, we're not going to agree on this.
I mean, I think we need to go back to this original question
of, you know, how open rich Western societies should be.
And I think we should be generous when it comes to taking
certain proportion of people every year who are, who have
(12:00):
suffered as a result of natural disasters or or war.
There are there are hundreds of thousands or millions of people
in UNHCR camps, but we need to select them, we need to select
the most vulnerable people. But but, David, let me just put
to you, there's an uncomfortableecho of the language of the
(12:21):
1970s, you know, the National Front poster from the 1970s that
said make Britain great again, stop immigration, start
repatriation. I mean, is this where we've
moved as a country now? Well, it's, it's responding to a
very different universe. We remain, you know, you know,
there is a very, I mean, Jacqueline didn't seem to be
(12:42):
aware of this. But as you pointed out, I mean,
it is now the most important issue for people despite the the
weakness of the economy and we are we're worrying about a real
thing. I mean, it's that.
Whipped up by Farage, actually, because I mean it, it does seem
slightly bizarre that given the cost of living, you know, high
inflation etcetera, people are worrying more about this than,
(13:05):
you know, the pound in their pocket.
Well, yes, I mean, you know, politicians, you know, who have
thrived off a certain approach, you know, and Nigel Farage has
done very well by emphasizing the two things that are
political class have kind of most ignored among the British
(13:31):
public. One of them is one of them is
immigration and the other is national sovereignty.
That is how he has done very well.
And why, why would he stop now? But I want to just make this
point comparing us now to the 1970s.
We're a miles more liberal country.
I mean, the number of people in Britain who say you have to be
(13:51):
white to be truly British is something like 5 or 6%.
You know, the number of people of different subject.
But I mean, again, an indicator of our kind of liberalism.
The number of people who say, you know, a man should go out to
work and a woman should stay at home and and look after the
household and children is also about about 5%.
A very, very liberal country. Let's put that to Jacqueline.
(14:13):
You know we've changed 1,000,000miles from the 1970s.
You know, people who say the farright is now mainstream.
It's just not true. I mean, I think, you know, my
parents are first generation Windrush and you know, I grew up
hearing the stories and of course I work mainly with with
Windrush clients. You know, I've grown up hearing
the stories about no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.
It's quite part of our popular culture.
(14:35):
So, you know, absolutely things have changed from then.
But what I fear now is that things are going back there.
You know, I worry for my teenageson being out at night.
You know, we see graffiti even on my street, which is in an
area which is, you know, a very cohesive area, not ever seen any
(14:56):
racist graffiti. My daughter pointed out
something that had been written on a on a telephone pole a few
months ago and how saddened she was.
You know, she's second generation born in the UK.
So I think we're heading back into really worrying times and
also that this is being caused alot by politicians and by
(15:20):
sections of the media and of course by some organisations.
Because, you know, you're absolutely right and David is
absolutely right that on the other side of that coin are some
incredible, wonderful positive signs.
You know, up and down the country are hundreds of
organisations, mostly run by elderly white women in their
(15:40):
villages and communities runningrefugee support and welcoming
organisations, you know, providing meals and blankets and
things. We see some great stuff.
But David, I mean, you know, just hearing those stories from
Jacqueline, you know, a recent migrant or a migrant of long
standing is going to find some of this language very upsetting,
(16:00):
possibly even terrifying. And that's let alone the the
refugees who've come in and findpeople camped outside their hot
their hotels. Yeah, I mean, but then I mean,
I, I agree with Jacqueline. I I have black and Asian friends
who say that they have for the first time, you know, been the
subject of bad mouthing, racist,bad mouthing.
(16:23):
And. But, you know, the issue is, you
know, do we, do we actually respond?
I mean, we've had a democratic failure here.
We're emboldening that tiny number of people.
I mean, I don't think it's even 5%, but it's a kind of fraction
of those 5% of people, you know,who are racist nutters.
You have them in all societies at all times.
(16:45):
You know, very small number of people who you know, for
whatever reason feel very insecure about their, about
their status in society or whatever.
But, you know, do we we're emboldening those people by not
responding to the by by our democracy, not responding to the
completely legitimate demand of the vast majority of people for
(17:07):
slower, slower change, slower immigration. 25 years ago in the
year 2000, the white British population was about 90% of the
British population. It is now closer to 70%.
We've seen a huge demographic change and that and that, you
know, in in many towns and cities and suburbs, you know
(17:29):
that that has, you know, it has completely changed.
But do you, do you mind about that?
I mean. What's the problem?
I think that's an enormous problem to to a lot of people.
People, human beings, tend to prefer familiarity and security.
It's just racist. Isn't it?
They are not. No, no, absolutely not.
No, people are, people are and, and I think the language is
often sort of twisted here. People are not anti immigrant,
(17:51):
they are anti mass immigration. They are anti radical change to
their to their way of life to you know, if suddenly your
neighborhood fills up with people who have very different
attitudes to religion to you, who speak a different language
to you, you may not feel uncomfortable.
Lots of lots of our fellow citizens do feel.
Jacqueline is that is that. Is that a?
(18:12):
Legitimate concern, that's not. No, I think that.
I mean, I think that worries me greatly that anyone feels like
that. You know, I mean, my mother
lives in a tiny island called Grenada in the Caribbean, and we
have a lot of English people going there because it's sunny
and you can buy property quite cheap.
You know, we've got people coming in from China and all
over the world. And it all makes for a wonderful
sort of, you know, you know, a cohesive community.
(18:36):
I mean, we are part of the world.
Look at the United States. Look at Canada, most of you,
most of the world, wherever you have a homogeneous society, a
society that most of us would not want to live in.
Who wants to live in North Korea, where almost 99% of the
population is North Korean? It is wonderful that you know
you can eat your way around the world in the UK and that your
(18:58):
neighbors can be from anywhere. We learn from that.
Do some cultures bring practiceswith them that make some of us
feel uncomfortable? Absolutely they do.
Jacqueline Mackenzie, David Goodhart, thank you both very
much for joining us. Well, that is it for this
episode of THE FORECAST. Until next time, goodbye.
25 years ago, in the year 2000, the white British population was
about 90% of the British population.
It is now closer to 70%. We've seen a huge demographic
change. But do you do you mind about
that? I mean, what's the problem?
I think that's an enormous problem to to a lot of people, I
think. We're heading back into really
worrying times and also that this is being caused a lot by
(00:25):
politicians and by sections of the media.
Nigel Farage is talking about paying autocratic regimes.
He's talking about dismantling Britain's post war treaties and
fundamental rights, locking up women and children.
I mean, is this who we are as a country?
(00:46):
Hello and welcome to the forecast.
Nigel Farage has put mass deportations at the centre of
his new immigration plan, promising to detain and remove
hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers from the UK.
While Reform currently only have4 MPs, polling suggests they
could win the next election and be in a position to implement
this. It is a striking escalation in
(01:07):
the rhetoric around immigration,raising the question of whether
this marks a real turning point in British politics.
Has anything like this been attempted or is it even
possible? And how does it fit into the
long, often heated history of immigration policy in the UK?
Joining me, Jacqueline Mackenzie, a partner at the
human rights law firm Lee Day, who specialises in immigration
(01:29):
and asylum cases, and journalistand author David Goodhart, who's
written extensively about immigration.
Welcome to you both. David Goodhart, let me start
with you. Do you think the public will see
Nigel Farage's plan as sort of solving a problem more?
Will they view it as sounding a bit bigoted?
(01:49):
Well, the public will be dividedon it, but I think, you know,
given what we've seen recently in opinion polling, how
immigrant, I mean, despite the the kind of sluggishness of the
economy and problems with the NHS, immigration has leapt ahead
once again to be the biggest single worry that people have.
(02:11):
So obviously he's he's tapping into that.
I mean, but obviously this has been building up for years and
years and years. I mean, you know, we, we could
go back to 1997 when we saw a step change in, in rates of
immigration and that. And then then of course, we had
Brexit, which is partly driven by by immigration, the feeling
that free movement was too free in a way that people could come
(02:32):
here and immediately enjoy all the rights of a British citizen.
We had 2019 with, you know, a promise of, you know, getting
Brexit done and, and levelling up and, and controlling
immigration because we now, you know, we're no longer in the EU,
we could control it and, and that didn't happen.
Indeed, we had a huge increase in legal migration.
(02:57):
So we now have kind of the worstworld.
We have huge, huge legal migration.
Obviously it's come down quite alot in in the last year or so,
but we were up to absolutely, you know, extraordinary levels
sort of seven 800,000 a year. And and we have the combined
with that we have the escalatingchannel issue let.
Me, let me bring in Jacqueline McKenzie then here.
(03:18):
Because that's the point, isn't it?
Successive governments have failed on this and now Nigel
Farage steps in and says hey, I can fix it.
No wonder people are listening. Overwhelmingly, people are still
more concerned about, you know, their their lives, you know what
money they have in their pocket,whether they're going to be able
to access health care, whether. They're not.
(03:39):
They're now more concerned aboutimmigration, aren't they?
Well. Well, I haven't seen any formal
opinion polls on this, but we doknow in the last election it
counted as something quite low down the priority list.
Now I I accept that it has risen.
I don't know where it is in terms of, you know, actual
opinion poll information. Top concern according to you Gov
(04:01):
The last opinion poll and now it's now far ahead of the
economy in the NHS and that's the point.
Nigel Farage is responding to that.
Then I think then that's fair enough.
But I think we do have to ask how have we come to a position
where, you know, 100,000 people seeking asylum and there weren't
100,000 people crossing the Channel, but 100,000 people are
(04:23):
seeking asylum because not everybody crosses the Channel.
You know, people come in in other ways.
How is it that that number of people when we know there are
120 million people displaced around the world?
You know, we saw Bangladesh taking a million Rohingyas,
Colombia took in 2 million Venezuelans, etcetera, etcetera.
(04:43):
How is it that that number of people, which is relatively a
small number, certainly less than France and Germany takes in
and when you think we're the 5thlargest economy, how is it that
that has become the main talkingpoint it it is a 40?
646% rise on the same period last year.
Have come across the channel in small boats this year so it's a
(05:04):
big rise isn't it? It's a big, it is a huge rise
and it's because, and it's not the highest number.
We've had higher numbers before and people came in in different
ways, didn't they came in via lorry and under the Eurostar in
all manner of ways. But this is highly visible.
People are coming in in these small boats.
You know, politicians, organisations, some sections of
(05:25):
the media make a big thing of itand they instill fear.
But you think the UK should be able to absorb and and and
tolerate that level? I think the numbers are small
enough for us to be able to do that.
I do accept that there are issues across society.
There was a lack, you know, I'vebeen a school governor.
I mean, there are real pressureson school places, there's
(05:46):
pressure on the NHS and so forth.
But whose fault is it? Is it the small number of people
who come over in those boats? And when I say a small number, a
small number in comparison to numbers of people fleeing
persecution for whatever reason,even I accept that some people
just want a better life. Let me put that back to let me
put that back to David. It's a small number in the
(06:08):
scheme of things. Yeah.
I mean, it is a relatively smallnumber, but it's the visibility
of the channel crossings. I mean, I agree that only about
I think about getting on for 1/2of asylum applications come from
Channel crosses. I mean the rest are there are
still people coming in on lorries and there are also a lot
(06:31):
of people who overstay visas, people who've come in legally
and then claim asylum subsequently.
But I do think, I mean, there isa growing consensus now across
left and right, across the wholeof Europe that our laws that
were that were designed for a different world.
You know, the 1951 convention, the European Convention on Human
(06:54):
Rights, which which adds variousother restrictions that make it
harder to deport people or stop them coming in the 1st place.
These were designed for a world in which very few people moved.
But let me put that to Jacqueline.
Well, some would argue that Refugee Convention is not fit
for purpose, but for a differentreason.
Because there is going to be an argument for people coming here
(07:16):
for reasons outside the convention, IE because they
cannot survive economically, or because of climate justice, or
for all manner of reasons in their current states.
And very often they're moving tocountries which have contributed
to some of the problems in theirown.
David. I mean, I think, you know, most
(07:37):
people in rich countries do not regard themselves as as
responsible for colonialism or imperialism.
You know, that is now many, many, many generations back.
No, I mean, I think, you know, do you want a kind of balanced
evolution of the planet? Do you want balanced
development? Do you know if you do, if you
(07:58):
don't want everybody ending up in Shepherd's Bush or or
Brooklyn, then we need to control this process.
I agree that rich countries should be, you know, generous.
They should. They should create systems that
do allow those people who are genuinely facing persecution.
(08:19):
I mean, there are many authoritarian regimes in the
world and, you know, there are many, you know, opposition
leaders who find themselves, youknow, with a bullet in the head
in a South African hotel, I mean.
David, David, you talk about being generous.
Nigel Farage is talking about paying autocratic regimes.
He's talking about dismantling Britain's post war treaties and
(08:40):
fundamental rights, locking up women and children.
I mean, is this who we are as a country?
Well, I think, you know, it's a response to the facts.
You know, it's a response to this, as I say this, this sort
of collision of the extraordinary high level, high
level of legal immigration and of the the very high visibility.
(09:02):
And I don't just mean the visibility crossing the channel.
I mean, I think, you know, that the, the fact that it's the,
it's the, the hotel in the town where people had their wedding
anniversary and you know, that the, I mean, it's just through
it. It does seem an extraordinary
mistake in a way on the part of the political class to think
(09:23):
that you could just stick a whole lot of, you know, young
men from Afghanistan or whereverin a hotel in the middle of a
small town like Epping and nobody would kind of notice.
And Jacqueline, you know, allegations against male asylum
seekers have fuelled discontent and that's legitimate, isn't it?
I mean, of course, I mean, you know, if there are sex offenders
(09:46):
anywhere, you know, amongst asylum seekers, amongst
refugees, amongst the indigenousBritish population, amongst
white men, then of course that is legitimate cause for concern.
There does seem to be some evidence that there are some
foreign national groups where crime, particularly sex crime
is, is higher than the existing male population.
(10:07):
You'd kind of expect that. I mean, that's sort of, you
know, people coming from very, very traditional societies with
very different attitudes to women suddenly find themselves
in society where, you know, in in London with, you know, women
not wearing very many clothes inthe hot weather.
This is kind of, you know, this is not what they're used to.
And some some men these places that are behaving very bad.
(10:29):
Well, I mean, I mean, that's so dangerous.
I mean, that's so dangerous. You know, to castigate the
entire group was castigating an entire group of people.
And in fact, in the in the statistics that was put out
recently by Ministry of Justice and confirmed by the Home Office
about who it is that's in prison.
You know, when there was this discussion about foreign
national prisoners of which we found, you know, there were 3 to
(10:52):
4000 of them. You know, we found that and,
and, and very often and this discussion about communities and
culture. And so we're often talking about
Muslim men or Asian men, particularly South Asian men.
And we found that they are underrepresented.
Of all the groups, they were themost underrepresented in the
prison population. So yes, there are problems in
(11:14):
that community. There's absolutely no doubt
about it. We sat and watched the stories
about grooming in Rotherham and Oldham and Bolton.
But we but we can't go around accusing entire communities.
We can't. We just can't do that.
I'm not doing that. I mean, but it's certainly not
the case that Muslim men are notunder represented in British
prisons. It may be the Indian men are
(11:38):
Chinese men. The term was Asian men, the.
I, I don't think, well, we're not going to agree on this.
I mean, I think we need to go back to this original question
of, you know, how open rich Western societies should be.
And I think we should be generous when it comes to taking
certain proportion of people every year who are, who have
(12:00):
suffered as a result of natural disasters or or war.
There are there are hundreds of thousands or millions of people
in UNHCR camps, but we need to select them, we need to select
the most vulnerable people. But but, David, let me just put
to you, there's an uncomfortableecho of the language of the
(12:21):
1970s, you know, the National Front poster from the 1970s that
said make Britain great again, stop immigration, start
repatriation. I mean, is this where we've
moved as a country now? Well, it's, it's responding to a
very different universe. We remain, you know, you know,
there is a very, I mean, Jacqueline didn't seem to be
(12:42):
aware of this. But as you pointed out, I mean,
it is now the most important issue for people despite the the
weakness of the economy and we are we're worrying about a real
thing. I mean, it's that.
Whipped up by Farage, actually, because I mean it, it does seem
slightly bizarre that given the cost of living, you know, high
inflation etcetera, people are worrying more about this than,
(13:05):
you know, the pound in their pocket.
Well, yes, I mean, you know, politicians, you know, who have
thrived off a certain approach, you know, and Nigel Farage has
done very well by emphasizing the two things that are
political class have kind of most ignored among the British
(13:31):
public. One of them is one of them is
immigration and the other is national sovereignty.
That is how he has done very well.
And why, why would he stop now? But I want to just make this
point comparing us now to the 1970s.
We're a miles more liberal country.
I mean, the number of people in Britain who say you have to be
(13:51):
white to be truly British is something like 5 or 6%.
You know, the number of people of different subject.
But I mean, again, an indicator of our kind of liberalism.
The number of people who say, you know, a man should go out to
work and a woman should stay at home and and look after the
household and children is also about about 5%.
A very, very liberal country. Let's put that to Jacqueline.
(14:13):
You know we've changed 1,000,000miles from the 1970s.
You know, people who say the farright is now mainstream.
It's just not true. I mean, I think, you know, my
parents are first generation Windrush and you know, I grew up
hearing the stories and of course I work mainly with with
Windrush clients. You know, I've grown up hearing
the stories about no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.
It's quite part of our popular culture.
(14:35):
So, you know, absolutely things have changed from then.
But what I fear now is that things are going back there.
You know, I worry for my teenageson being out at night.
You know, we see graffiti even on my street, which is in an
area which is, you know, a very cohesive area, not ever seen any
(14:56):
racist graffiti. My daughter pointed out
something that had been written on a on a telephone pole a few
months ago and how saddened she was.
You know, she's second generation born in the UK.
So I think we're heading back into really worrying times and
also that this is being caused alot by politicians and by
(15:20):
sections of the media and of course by some organisations.
Because, you know, you're absolutely right and David is
absolutely right that on the other side of that coin are some
incredible, wonderful positive signs.
You know, up and down the country are hundreds of
organisations, mostly run by elderly white women in their
(15:40):
villages and communities runningrefugee support and welcoming
organisations, you know, providing meals and blankets and
things. We see some great stuff.
But David, I mean, you know, just hearing those stories from
Jacqueline, you know, a recent migrant or a migrant of long
standing is going to find some of this language very upsetting,
(16:00):
possibly even terrifying. And that's let alone the the
refugees who've come in and findpeople camped outside their hot
their hotels. Yeah, I mean, but then I mean,
I, I agree with Jacqueline. I I have black and Asian friends
who say that they have for the first time, you know, been the
subject of bad mouthing, racist,bad mouthing.
(16:23):
And. But, you know, the issue is, you
know, do we, do we actually respond?
I mean, we've had a democratic failure here.
We're emboldening that tiny number of people.
I mean, I don't think it's even 5%, but it's a kind of fraction
of those 5% of people, you know,who are racist nutters.
You have them in all societies at all times.
(16:45):
You know, very small number of people who you know, for
whatever reason feel very insecure about their, about
their status in society or whatever.
But, you know, do we we're emboldening those people by not
responding to the by by our democracy, not responding to the
completely legitimate demand of the vast majority of people for
(17:07):
slower, slower change, slower immigration. 25 years ago in the
year 2000, the white British population was about 90% of the
British population. It is now closer to 70%.
We've seen a huge demographic change and that and that, you
know, in in many towns and cities and suburbs, you know
(17:29):
that that has, you know, it has completely changed.
But do you, do you mind about that?
I mean. What's the problem?
I think that's an enormous problem to to a lot of people.
People, human beings, tend to prefer familiarity and security.
It's just racist. Isn't it?
They are not. No, no, absolutely not.
No, people are, people are and, and I think the language is
often sort of twisted here. People are not anti immigrant,
(17:51):
they are anti mass immigration. They are anti radical change to
their to their way of life to you know, if suddenly your
neighborhood fills up with people who have very different
attitudes to religion to you, who speak a different language
to you, you may not feel uncomfortable.
Lots of lots of our fellow citizens do feel.
Jacqueline is that is that. Is that a?
(18:12):
Legitimate concern, that's not. No, I think that.
I mean, I think that worries me greatly that anyone feels like
that. You know, I mean, my mother
lives in a tiny island called Grenada in the Caribbean, and we
have a lot of English people going there because it's sunny
and you can buy property quite cheap.
You know, we've got people coming in from China and all
over the world. And it all makes for a wonderful
sort of, you know, you know, a cohesive community.
(18:36):
I mean, we are part of the world.
Look at the United States. Look at Canada, most of you,
most of the world, wherever you have a homogeneous society, a
society that most of us would not want to live in.
Who wants to live in North Korea, where almost 99% of the
population is North Korean? It is wonderful that you know
you can eat your way around the world in the UK and that your
(18:58):
neighbors can be from anywhere. We learn from that.
Do some cultures bring practiceswith them that make some of us
feel uncomfortable? Absolutely they do.
Jacqueline Mackenzie, David Goodhart, thank you both very
much for joining us. Well, that is it for this
episode of THE FORECAST. Until next time, goodbye.
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