August 6, 2025 • 26 mins
Is fashion the latest thing to be swallowed into politics, culture war and the backlash on woke?
Stick-thin models with protruding bones were the marketing choice of Zara for a new campaign - the ad has just been banned by the Advertising Standards Authority as irresponsible.
And the fallout from Sydney Sweeney's ad campaign for American Eagle jeans keeps growing - a few years ago accusations of white supremacy and promoting the right wing might have caused a share price to plummet.
But after Donald Trump described the ad as the hottest ad out there American Eagle stock rocketed. Are we back in the 90's or even the 30's?
Ad agencies have always looked for ways to get noticed - but is the war on woke also sweeping away years of progress on body positivity and diversity?
On this episode of The Fourcast, Krishnan Guru-Murthy is joined by Katie Glass, who writes for the Times and Megan Jayne Crabbe - a writer, presenter and activist for body positivity and feminism.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The current zeitgeist that we are in, we are leaning towards
conservatism. There's these kind of purity
politics happening again for women and the thin white,
blonde, blue eyed figure is kindof looming over as the ideal
once again. Sydney Sweeney's interesting to
me because she's done nothing tomake her body look particularly
different. She's not had a boob of.
She's not gone sort of bleach blonde just by sort of having
(00:21):
boobs and going on telly. People say she's the harbinger
of the death of woke. That's the sort of extreme time
she's living. In Is this just another phase
will go through and it'll come back round?
Is this driven by Trump and thatonce that goes, something else
will come along? Or is it more profound than
that? Hello and welcome to the
(00:43):
forecast. Is fashion the latest thing to
be swallowed into current politics?
Culture war and the backlash on woke stick thin models with
protruding bones with a marketing choice of Zara for a
new campaign. They've just been banned by the
Advertising Standards Authority as irresponsible.
And the fallout from Sydney Sweeney's ad campaign for
(01:03):
American Eagle jeans keeps growing.
A few years ago, accusations of white supremacy and promoting
the right wing might have causeda share price to plummet.
But after Donald Trump describedthe ad as the hottest ad out
there, American Eagle stock rocketed.
So are we back in the 90s or even the 30s?
Ad agencies have always looked for ways to get noticed.
(01:23):
But is the war on woke also sweeping away years of progress
on body positivity and diversity?
Katie Glass writes about these things for The Times, and Megan
Jane Crabb is a writer, presenter and activist for body
positivity and feminism. Meghan, when you saw those Zara
images, that heart back a long way, what did you think?
(01:48):
Honestly, I thought they were eerily reminiscent of the era of
a skinny skinny inspiration on Tumblr.
You know, we're seeing now a skinny talk on TikTok.
It definitely felt like the images I would have compared
myself to when I was a teenager and I was deeply struggling with
my body image. The the thing that body
positivity was a reaction against.
(02:10):
Yeah. And and and without a doubt we
have gone sliding on backwards over the last couple of years.
Diversity and representation is a way down.
The thin is in mantra is absolutely everywhere and this
is the latest representation of that.
Where were you? Thin is in.
You're seeing it where? I'm seeing it on socials, I'm
seeing it in brands on runways, even TV shows.
(02:31):
You know the the TV shows that have diversity are cancelled and
even in plus size sizing in stores, plus size collections
are being pulled out of stores and put only online.
Casey, what's your initial reaction to this?
Because I mean, the system clamps down on it immediately.
Yeah. I mean, that's probably a good
thing that we have some sort of measures about what looks
(02:52):
extremely unhealthy on either side.
I suppose I, I sort of thought was predictable in the sense
that fashion's job is to sort ofmirror cultural discussions and
cultural movements. We're in an age of sort of
injectable weight loss jobs. Even Heston Blumenthal's talking
about how people don't want to go to restaurants anymore.
So we know this is sort of mainstream thing going on.
Of course, fashions reflected that swing to thought sort of
(03:13):
people being thinner. I guess I felt it was really
depressing because as usual, that discussion is playing out
over women's bodies. It's always women's bodies,
whether they like it or not, over which these sort of
political and cultural battles are happening.
And that just feels a bit depressing to me, to be honest.
Well, I mean, it really feels like we've gone back in time,
doesn't it? I mean where where women don't
have agency over what is regarded as attractive.
(03:35):
Again, because because commerce and politics have taken over.
Well, it's always been the case,hasn't it, that sort of
capitalism's been in charge of what's attractive, But the fact
that that focus is still on women, I don't know if it's that
we've gone back in time. It just feels like nothing's
changed. You know, I was sort of thinking
back to Elizabeth the 1st and talking about her body as the
sort of virgin queen and, you know, like forever.
These political debates on women's bodies.
(03:57):
Why don't we talk about what menlook like and whether that
reflects a change in culture? Because interestingly, we'd
interestingly we do not see ads or representation of men's
bodies that promotes the Super unhealthy as often.
We see like Levi's ads and Calvin Klein ads in which men
with 6 packs walking around, youknow, on Love Island, we've got
(04:18):
men sort of like obsessed with their bodies.
That's happening on sort of. You talked about social media
culture, so I don't feel it is just happening to women.
I do think it's happening to mentoo.
But the discussion and, you know, the debate and that sort
of political wrangling always feels like it's over women's
bodies, that they're somehow responsible for that, that I
mean those. Well, what is it?
Desirable men's bodies become incredibly 2 dimensional
(04:39):
recently, hasn't it? Because of, you know, the gym
and muscles and all that kind ofthat, that is it.
So yeah, you're right. There's no sort of there's no
heroin chic for men right now, but.
But it's still unrealistic and unattainable for the majority.
Yeah, so I mean, So what? What has happened to the whole
body positivity movement in fashion over the last few years?
Oh my God has. It just collapsed.
(04:59):
Well, listen, I've been part of the body positive movement for
10 years, so I kind of was in itbefore it was a thing.
I saw it at its peak around 2017.
We had way more diversity. You know, Lizzo was singing his
films with plus size main characters were out.
It was fantastic. And it has felt like over the
last few years, especially sincethe introduction of Ozempic and
(05:19):
other GLP ones, things have justjust slowly trickled backwards
and. What's happened to work for the
models? Let's try to help.
I have a quite a few friends whoare plus size models who are
getting nowhere near as much work as they used to get and
even body positive influencers who are being told directly by
brands we're not doing the the body positive thing anymore.
(05:40):
You know, we're not doing the diversity thing.
So they've kind of we're using it when it was useful to them.
Is it? Is it both?
Is it body positivity and diversity?
Yes, yes, I think. They're both going backwards.
I think so. And I think again, that's
reflective of the time that we're in where we're we are
seeing a massive pushback and a swing back towards conservatism.
The what? Wasn't the whole sort of
commercial rationale though for body positivity that you know
(06:02):
most of the buying public are not perfect and don't look like
the models and therefore you've got to appeal?
Yes, appeals to them, but also fashion has always been
aspirational. I mean, most people aren't
walking around with the sort of 5000 LB Dolce and compiler dress
on or maybe even a spider ever own one.
So the idea I'm supposed to lookat a model and think I should
look like that, I guess it's never.
But like, don't get me wrong, I thought body to positivity was a
(06:24):
wonderful thing. It was a sort of exciting time.
The pendulum swings one way and I talked to model agents who
talked about at the time how blonde, you know, blue eyed,
very skinny girls weren't getting work.
The pendulum swinging another way.
That's fashion's job, isn't it? To sort of, you know, change the
discussion all the time. And like I say, I think it's
obviously you said yourself, it's a reflection, isn't it, of
the sort of rise of a Zen pick and maybe a comment on that,
(06:46):
which I'm just sort of longing for a fashion discussion.
That's interesting. So I'm up for that, you know,
sort of provocative reflection of the fat weight loss jabs have
come in and I don't know why that's so sort of problematic.
Well. In in amongst all of this,
though, we've got a very political row going on in
America around Sidney Sweeney, Now, American Eagle do this ad
(07:06):
campaign, a load of people sort of jump on it on social media
and accuse them of supporting eugenics and white supremacy and
all of that because she's talking about genes.
They of course deny it and say it's just about the genes.
In amongst all of that, it's revealed that she's a registered
Republican. Trump swings in behind her and
says she's hot, this is amazing,best dad ever, and it's a
(07:30):
commercial success. That.
That's quite weird, isn't it? I would say that anything that
Trump gets behind and says that's hot, steer clear of do
not touch with the but. People aren't clearly.
I mean, you know, he's, you know, MAG is a big movement.
Lots of people are prepared to buy into it.
And it's a commercial success. Yeah.
But I think also people, that's how buying power has shifted,
(07:51):
isn't it? People are talking about their
politics through what they buy. The way you see people sort of
boycott Israel, for example. But I mean, yeah, like Trump
being interested in in some jeans, like, I guess it is.
It just only reflects really howpolitically divisive things are
now that people feel that they want to show their support for
Trump in this mad way but bang some frankly rather horrible
sort of mum shaped jeans. But I suppose, but where, where
(08:14):
does that fit in, if you like, in terms of, you know, the
culture war, you know, is, is American fashion again, sort of
just now picking sides? You know, you've got Beyoncé
with her Levi's ad and Sidney Sweeney with her American Eagle
ad and you've got people sort oftaking sides and wearing,
wearing badges to show, I suppose.
(08:37):
Well, it is certainly interesting that fashion.
Yeah, it's, and it just shows how divisive things are in
America that people are picking up on that and they're
discussing. I mean, people would compare a
sort of just a jeans advertisement to Nazism.
It's just sort of wild. And it just goes to show on both
sides of the discussion how polarized things have got
really, that people, you know, feel such strong affinity that
to those sort of things. But it happened with the
(08:57):
Budweiser ad as well, didn't it?Yeah, and, and, and I do hear
that. I do hear that it's kind of
taken on a real life of its own.But I think that in part the
success of the body positive movement a handful of years ago
was because people started voicing on social media
actually, is this OK? I'm not happy with this.
Can we get more representation? So I'm all for people calling
(09:17):
things out when they think, yeah, that's defensive.
Well, that's not good enough. But do you think the
progressives fell into the trap again, if you like of, of, of
saying something that was, you know, slightly over the top for
a lot of people, You know, that you went, they went, they jumped
straight for Nazi off the back of a jeans campaign, which which
just enabled, you know, everybody else to go off.
(09:39):
You know, This is why Woke Koreais a disaster.
Absolutely, and it was such clickbait and the response was
so predictable. One sort of suspects that might
have been part of the advertising campaign itself.
Shawny. Deliberate.
Yeah. I mean, it just seemed so like,
automatic. It sort of happened straight
away, You know, this sort of provocative advertisement in
which he's playing with the sortof offensive idea of eugenics,
which she can't have realized isnot happening at a time when
(10:01):
Trump's camping down on immigration.
So I think what is interesting to me about Sydney Sweeney is
she has chosen to lean into those discussions not sort of
verbally. She's not saying in.
The past she has. Well, she knows her body is
going to be the centre of those discussions anyway and she's
willing to like, let it be and sort of engage in those
conversations rather than let other people have them over her
(10:21):
and and not be sort of part of that debate herself.
I think other women's bodies arealways used in that way.
Look at Kim Kardashian or Dolly Parton, people are always
talking about how women's bodieslook.
Sydney Sweeney's interesting to me because she's done nothing to
make her body look particularly different.
She's not had a boob dog. She's not gone some sort of
bleach blonde. She just looks the way she
looks, and she can't seem to winjust by sort of having boobs and
(10:42):
going on telly. People say she's the harbinger
of the death of woke. I mean, that's the sort of
extreme time she's living in. I love her for leaning into that
and saying, OK, well, I'll do anad.
I'll do, you know, produce some soap in which I pretend it's
made from my bath water. I think she's sort of hilarious,
isn't she? She's definitely playing the
game and winning. But how?
How does that fit into your whole worry about how women
(11:05):
aren't in control of this conversation?
And she might be in control momentarily of making a load of
money and, you know, raising herfame.
But is she playing into something that is actually quite
bad for women? She's talked, hasn't she, about
an interviews, but how she feelsthis, she's lost control of her
body. People have these conversations
over her body. I was thinking about that essay
(11:26):
by like Emily Ratajkowski where she talks about paparazzi
snapping her image and then someone taking that image and
putting it in a gallery and selling it.
And she sort of plays with this idea of what control she got
over her image. Well, Sydney Sweeney's body is
going to be a matter of discussion and debate anyway and
she's just chosen to say I'm going to try and have a little
bit of control over that. I look, I think ultimately the,
(11:52):
the issue with Sydney Sweeney and the issue even with this
Zara ad, it's not necessarily, you know, these, these bodies
shouldn't be seen or they shouldn't be taking up this
space. It's just the where, where is
everyone else? You know, the average woman in
the UK is a size 16. And so the average size that we
should be seeing in advertising surely is that.
And I don't believe that fashionneeds to be this aspirational,
(12:14):
you know, unreachable thing. I think it should be reflective
of who we actually are. And when it does that, when it
does tap into diversity and represents people, it shows they
make money. Plus size collections make
money. Well, well do well, do they?
I mean, because if, if you know,if they, if they do, if, if it
really was a commercial imperative that drove plus size
models and body positivity, they'd still be doing it.
(12:36):
You know, why would they drop it?
Because. It's no longer fashionable.
It's no, it's no longer, you know, in vogue to represent all
bodies. And also because I don't, I
think a lot of brands don't wantto deal with the backlash
because as much as we did have amoment of body positivity,
brands had to deal with a lot ofpeople who were against that and
didn't agree with that. And a lot of them then have
(12:58):
tapped out the earliest possibleopportunity because they were
just hopping on the bandwagon. So.
How has that played out in your world, particularly online?
I suppose the backlash. Well there's always been
naysayers, there's always been trolls.
I would say there's definitely been a new influx of commentary
on anyone who'd any woman who dares to exist in a body that is
(13:20):
above maybe a size 10. These automatic assumptions
about health. You're irresponsible.
You shouldn't be showing yourself you're disgusting.
Huge amounts of misogyny and body shaming just coming in
endlessly, especially from the kind of TikTok side of things.
Now case you mentioned to weightloss jabs, what what effect do
you think that's had on what's attractive?
(13:45):
I think GLP, we, I think GLP ones have changed everything.
I think they have, we have forever been searching for this
magic miracle weight loss solution.
You know, in the 1920s, we were sold cigarettes as that
solution. There's been drugs like Fen Fen
that were recalled because they did so much damage.
And now we have GLP ones and it I think it goes to show that a
(14:08):
lot of people, they never stopped looking for that miracle
and they were always willing to do whatever they could really to
buy into it. And even now, you know, we don't
know the long term consequences of being on these drugs.
We don't know what's gonna happen in 20 years time.
And yet we've been caught up in this fervour of thin is back in
and it's represented everywhere.And all the, you know, Hollywood
starlets have jumped on the bandwagon.
(14:29):
And I think again, it's that theidea of exclusivity or that
rareness of, you know, we had the kind of Kardashian era where
we saw more curvaceous women. And then as soon as people were
women kind of got more comfy in that snap back to something that
is unattainable and really difficult to achieve is that
kind of exclusivity that we've seen throughout time as well,
(14:51):
especially when it comes to class.
You know, often throughout history, women of a higher class
have always sought to essentially, it just had the
more rare body type, whether that was larger 100 years ago or
thinner. I mean I agree with you that
definitely a problem with the weight loss jabs as you do have
this difference that some women can afford them or men too.
Some people can't afford them, but you know, we can't have a
(15:12):
sort of conversation about thinness and weight loss jabs
without bringing health into it.And I do think, you know,
without sort of making some wildassumption that anyone plus
sizes super unhealthy. I think there's a really
interesting thing happening in asort of post COVID time where
people are thinking about their health more.
You know, we see the headline obesity crisis and the sort of
tabloids, but probably discussions of that in the paper
(15:32):
all the time. And I think people are conscious
of it is a balance. It's not just about looking a
certain way. Some people want to lose weight
because we do know it's healthier and I don't think we
should be chastised for that. Well, of course being fitter,
you know, not eating processed foods, yeah, all those things
are healthier. But like there is a sort of
correlation. Yes.
And I wouldn't make assumptions about people either way.
But you know, yes, it to be too thin is like very unhealthy,
(15:55):
although we also know that to beoverweight is unhealthy.
And we had we had a sort of area, didn't we, when it was
Tess Holiday on the front cover of Cosmopolitan, this great
celebration. And I don't think that's bad,
but maybe it is problematic. You know, now people are being
more health conscious whether weshould promote either end of the
sort of spectrum. I think it's not directly
comparable. I think when we see, you know,
(16:17):
the woman in the Zara ad, she becomes one more example in this
never ending stream of extreme thinness that we are seeing.
And it just plays into the already existing narrative that
thin is the best way to be and the only way to be for women.
Whereas when we see one plus size person, even a very, you
know, much larger plus size person, that is not adding onto
a narrative already that, you know, pressures women to gain
(16:40):
weight or be larger. I.
Mean it was interesting that Zara's response was to point out
that these models had been certified as in good health,
which I'm assuming if they certify thin models, they must
certify everybody as in as in good health.
That's such a good point. Do they certify plus size models
as being in good health? Have you ever heard of that?
(17:02):
Never heard of it. Well, I mean, so it'll, it'll be
interesting what that actually means and who does the
assessment. But I mean, is, is the health
conversation a bit of a fib? You know, I suppose is, is, is,
is what I, you know, wonder in the same way that the whole plus
size rationale was about, you know, it makes commercial sense
(17:24):
because most people aren't, you know, thin and tall and, you
know, and beautiful. And so we've got to represent
the, the, the consumer that thatwas sort of a bit of a post op
rationalization for fashion. And that maybe this is the same,
that the health benefits of being thin through weight loss
jabs might be a bit of a post oprationalization for the truth,
(17:45):
which is just the establishment like blonde, white, thin people.
And and that's that's what the establishment view of what's
attractive is. Here we all are.
But also the establishment like to make money.
Come on, GL the the the GLP wellI.
Mean, I suppose the establishment is, is is a bit of
(18:06):
a get out for me. I mean, you know, but people,
society, the Western world, the ideal of of what is attractive
in our society is still thin, Yeah, and isn't going to change.
Look, I think it's a it's a nuanced conversation when we
want to talk about health and GLP ones.
And obviously you can't tell anyone individual what they can
and can't do for their body and what they think they're doing
(18:26):
for their health. But also, I personally think
it's kind of absurd to promote something on the basis of health
that we literally don't know what it is doing long term to
people's health. But that's a slightly separate
issue, because that's that's about substance.
We're talking about the the sortof ephemeral nonsense of
appearance, aren't we? I actually let you know, let let
(18:49):
alone you know, put put the hellof a side.
We're just talking about how people look.
I'm probably sort of not fashionable enough, but like to
me it feels like there's been a shift towards strength, you
know, with people finding like stronger looking bodies more
attractive. I think that reflects a sort of
shift towards health. I, you know, Zara side, which is
a sort of fashion brand or is trying to, you know, associate
itself with being a high fashionbrand.
(19:09):
Like actually, I think a lot of the images we see are of like
strong women. You know, I'm thinking in pop,
people like Katy Perry or like, you know, wet legs performance
at Glastonbury, Like people likestrong women are finding that
there's a move towards that and not this sort of thinness.
I'm I'm surprised when you talk about it being sort of
ubiquitous because we must have different algorithms on our
social media aspect. I think we do.
I I do agree that there definitely was a push towards
(19:32):
strength, but to me that was almost happening now a few years
ago. And even when we are seeing
these like very strong women, it's still an incredibly low
body fat percentage. We don't.
We don't often see women who arestrong and soft at the same
time. Do you feel cheated by people
like Lizzo who've chosen to use weight loss jobs?
(19:52):
I know I'm curious like, becauseI guess she's talked both about
the fact that she wants to represent body positivity and at
the same time, you know, she's sort of obviously on a sort of
health, she has talked about it as a health journey, hasn't she?
She has and and you know, my opinion is she can obviously do
what she wants with her own body.
It doesn't feel great to have lost a really key figure of
(20:13):
representation of of the movements.
A lot of people do feel betrayedby that.
There's kind of a sense of grief, I think, which is
understandable. But again, I try not to kind of
project my feelings onto her as an individual because she can do
what she wants. It feels so surprising that when
we have this discussion, we start with Sydney Sweeney,
though, because when I see her, I think that is a return to body
(20:33):
positivity, isn't it? I mean, she's not a Zara thin
model because. She's not.
Yes. She's not manipulated her body.
You know, the last person we were having these intense
debates around, which was sort of Kim Kardashian really did
feel like a body that was sort of manipulated and unobtainable.
Whereas Sidney Sweeney looks reasonably natural.
It's just what she looks like, isn't it?
But the, the, the Sidney Sweeneydebate, I suppose is, is again,
(20:53):
it's about what's attractive, isn't it?
And, and you know, specifically the, the the controversy is
around, is she saying, you know,blonde, white, blue eyes is
what's attractive and in and in and in Trump's mega world, it
largely is, you know, if you look at what's happening to mega
women and author, you know, his half of his cabinet and the
(21:18):
people around him and the amountof plastic surgery that's going
on amongst those women and the traditional look, that is a
type, isn't it? That's where the controversy is
with Sidney Sweeney, that she's playing into all of that.
I guess, but again, that feeling, it just feels
relentless for women. You know, Pamela Anderson
doesn't wear makeup. We have a conversation about
that Trump and women, you know, look over inflated or wear too
(21:40):
much makeup. We have to have a conversation
about that. If women have Botox, they're
done. If they don't have Botox, you
know, if they're too big or if they're too small, it just feels
sort of relentless. Actually, I said to your
producer, I got asked to come onhere in the first day.
I thought, it's what am I going to wear, you know, which is just
so boring or something that's intensely boring, being a woman,
but having to think about your sort of, you know, I just want
to sit around reading books. Like for a man, I just don't
(22:01):
feel they're having these relentless conversations about
how they look and having to think about that all the time.
I wouldn't assume that to be honest, because I think I think
particularly with young men, theyou know, their look is
something a lot of them are obsessing about as well.
And you know, we know that eating disorders are massive
amongst men now and and mental health crisis because of it as
well. But it's in, it's different,
(22:22):
certainly. It's not not happening for men,
but I don't think it's making front page news in the same way
for women. No, but that's but that's, you
know, again, that's capitalism, isn't it?
It's, it's, it's, it's industries run either by men or
women in male owned industries that drive that conversation.
(22:43):
I mean, in terms of where you think this is going, is it just
fashion like is, is this just another phase we'll go through
and it'll come back round? Is this driven by Trump and that
once that goes, something else will come along?
Or is it more profound than that?
(23:03):
Look, I think it's all interconnected.
I don't think you can say this is solely because of any one
thing. I think the current zeitgeist
that we are in, we are leaning towards conservatism.
We are, you know, there's these kind of purity politics
happening again for women. And the thin white, blonde, blue
eyed figure is kind of looming over as the ideal once again.
And these are all kind of intertwined with each other.
(23:26):
My feeling and the feeling of many people I've spoken to.
I was interviewing Jamila Jamil recently and even she said just
hold on. Just brace yourself and hold on
because we know that this will circle back around.
We have been here before, we'll be here again.
So just wait for it. And then probably five years,
maybe body positivity will have a boom again.
And how important is it, in thatmeantime, to keep banging the
(23:48):
drum, keep talking about it, keep writing about it, keep
doing what you're doing on social?
Media, it's so important and it's, you know, it's not just
important for women like me, it's important for all people
and especially, you know, our teenage girls, the girls who are
shopping on Zara everyday and seeing that advert or on Tiktok
and getting sucked into skinny talk.
That is why we need to change the narrative and continue to
(24:08):
have the representation that is the bare minimum.
You know, diversity and representation.
That's not the most that a brandcan do.
It's the absolute least and it'sfrankly just cowardly that they
don't. What is skinny talk?
It's the modern day equivalent of of pro Anna content, which
kind of used to live and thrive on Tumblr and now skinny talk is
content that is actively saying this is how I get really thin.
(24:34):
Promoting disordered eating behaviours.
You know, idolising very thin women.
And and that's able to happen way beyond the scope of any kind
of regulation or online Safety Act or.
Anything. Give it five years again and
there'll probably be some kind of act around it.
But it's happening now, yeah. And that feels ironic because it
is actually driven by young women themselves, which suggests
(24:56):
that it's not just women being or young people being influenced
by advertising, but also that they, you know, the sort of
dialectical conversation that they're promoting that stuff
themselves, aren't they, online?And there is, you know, I mean,
just poke, poke you a little bitwith your why are we talking
about this? I mean, you wrote an article
about Sidney Sweeney. You're talking about it.
No, I want to talk about it, butI'm saying we shouldn't.
(25:18):
I, I, I, you know, I want to celebrate her.
I want to celebrate the fact she's lent into this discussion
that's happening over her body that she can't control.
You know, it's a capitalist thing.
She's talked about how nowadays you can't just be an actress,
you know, you have to sort of promote brands, you have to do
other work that the people are going to talk about her body and
take that away from her. So I really wanted to sort of
write something and say, you know, I support her actually.
And I understand otherwise a young woman, the only way maybe
(25:40):
to seize control of that discussion of that public
discussion of your body, that public discussion that's
happening about her breasts thatare just part of her body that
she can't do anything about, Youknow what she should.
It's just like now she's trying to seize control of that in some
way. And I just want to sort of like
celebrate for that for her and stand up for it a bit because it
feels like she's attracted nothing but criticism.
Thank you both very much indeed.That's it for this episode of
(26:02):
The Forecast. Until next time, bye bye.
The current zeitgeist that we are in, we are leaning towards
conservatism. There's these kind of purity
politics happening again for women and the thin white,
blonde, blue eyed figure is kindof looming over as the ideal
once again. Sydney Sweeney's interesting to
me because she's done nothing tomake her body look particularly
different. She's not had a boob of.
She's not gone sort of bleach blonde just by sort of having
(00:21):
boobs and going on telly. People say she's the harbinger
of the death of woke. That's the sort of extreme time
she's living. In Is this just another phase
will go through and it'll come back round?
Is this driven by Trump and thatonce that goes, something else
will come along? Or is it more profound than
that? Hello and welcome to the
(00:43):
forecast. Is fashion the latest thing to
be swallowed into current politics?
Culture war and the backlash on woke stick thin models with
protruding bones with a marketing choice of Zara for a
new campaign. They've just been banned by the
Advertising Standards Authority as irresponsible.
And the fallout from Sydney Sweeney's ad campaign for
(01:03):
American Eagle jeans keeps growing.
A few years ago, accusations of white supremacy and promoting
the right wing might have causeda share price to plummet.
But after Donald Trump describedthe ad as the hottest ad out
there, American Eagle stock rocketed.
So are we back in the 90s or even the 30s?
Ad agencies have always looked for ways to get noticed.
(01:23):
But is the war on woke also sweeping away years of progress
on body positivity and diversity?
Katie Glass writes about these things for The Times, and Megan
Jane Crabb is a writer, presenter and activist for body
positivity and feminism. Meghan, when you saw those Zara
images, that heart back a long way, what did you think?
(01:48):
Honestly, I thought they were eerily reminiscent of the era of
a skinny skinny inspiration on Tumblr.
You know, we're seeing now a skinny talk on TikTok.
It definitely felt like the images I would have compared
myself to when I was a teenager and I was deeply struggling with
my body image. The the thing that body
positivity was a reaction against.
(02:10):
Yeah. And and and without a doubt we
have gone sliding on backwards over the last couple of years.
Diversity and representation is a way down.
The thin is in mantra is absolutely everywhere and this
is the latest representation of that.
Where were you? Thin is in.
You're seeing it where? I'm seeing it on socials, I'm
seeing it in brands on runways, even TV shows.
(02:31):
You know the the TV shows that have diversity are cancelled and
even in plus size sizing in stores, plus size collections
are being pulled out of stores and put only online.
Casey, what's your initial reaction to this?
Because I mean, the system clamps down on it immediately.
Yeah. I mean, that's probably a good
thing that we have some sort of measures about what looks
(02:52):
extremely unhealthy on either side.
I suppose I, I sort of thought was predictable in the sense
that fashion's job is to sort ofmirror cultural discussions and
cultural movements. We're in an age of sort of
injectable weight loss jobs. Even Heston Blumenthal's talking
about how people don't want to go to restaurants anymore.
So we know this is sort of mainstream thing going on.
Of course, fashions reflected that swing to thought sort of
(03:13):
people being thinner. I guess I felt it was really
depressing because as usual, that discussion is playing out
over women's bodies. It's always women's bodies,
whether they like it or not, over which these sort of
political and cultural battles are happening.
And that just feels a bit depressing to me, to be honest.
Well, I mean, it really feels like we've gone back in time,
doesn't it? I mean where where women don't
have agency over what is regarded as attractive.
(03:35):
Again, because because commerce and politics have taken over.
Well, it's always been the case,hasn't it, that sort of
capitalism's been in charge of what's attractive, But the fact
that that focus is still on women, I don't know if it's that
we've gone back in time. It just feels like nothing's
changed. You know, I was sort of thinking
back to Elizabeth the 1st and talking about her body as the
sort of virgin queen and, you know, like forever.
These political debates on women's bodies.
(03:57):
Why don't we talk about what menlook like and whether that
reflects a change in culture? Because interestingly, we'd
interestingly we do not see ads or representation of men's
bodies that promotes the Super unhealthy as often.
We see like Levi's ads and Calvin Klein ads in which men
with 6 packs walking around, youknow, on Love Island, we've got
(04:18):
men sort of like obsessed with their bodies.
That's happening on sort of. You talked about social media
culture, so I don't feel it is just happening to women.
I do think it's happening to mentoo.
But the discussion and, you know, the debate and that sort
of political wrangling always feels like it's over women's
bodies, that they're somehow responsible for that, that I
mean those. Well, what is it?
Desirable men's bodies become incredibly 2 dimensional
(04:39):
recently, hasn't it? Because of, you know, the gym
and muscles and all that kind ofthat, that is it.
So yeah, you're right. There's no sort of there's no
heroin chic for men right now, but.
But it's still unrealistic and unattainable for the majority.
Yeah, so I mean, So what? What has happened to the whole
body positivity movement in fashion over the last few years?
Oh my God has. It just collapsed.
(04:59):
Well, listen, I've been part of the body positive movement for
10 years, so I kind of was in itbefore it was a thing.
I saw it at its peak around 2017.
We had way more diversity. You know, Lizzo was singing his
films with plus size main characters were out.
It was fantastic. And it has felt like over the
last few years, especially sincethe introduction of Ozempic and
(05:19):
other GLP ones, things have justjust slowly trickled backwards
and. What's happened to work for the
models? Let's try to help.
I have a quite a few friends whoare plus size models who are
getting nowhere near as much work as they used to get and
even body positive influencers who are being told directly by
brands we're not doing the the body positive thing anymore.
(05:40):
You know, we're not doing the diversity thing.
So they've kind of we're using it when it was useful to them.
Is it? Is it both?
Is it body positivity and diversity?
Yes, yes, I think. They're both going backwards.
I think so. And I think again, that's
reflective of the time that we're in where we're we are
seeing a massive pushback and a swing back towards conservatism.
The what? Wasn't the whole sort of
commercial rationale though for body positivity that you know
(06:02):
most of the buying public are not perfect and don't look like
the models and therefore you've got to appeal?
Yes, appeals to them, but also fashion has always been
aspirational. I mean, most people aren't
walking around with the sort of 5000 LB Dolce and compiler dress
on or maybe even a spider ever own one.
So the idea I'm supposed to lookat a model and think I should
look like that, I guess it's never.
But like, don't get me wrong, I thought body to positivity was a
(06:24):
wonderful thing. It was a sort of exciting time.
The pendulum swings one way and I talked to model agents who
talked about at the time how blonde, you know, blue eyed,
very skinny girls weren't getting work.
The pendulum swinging another way.
That's fashion's job, isn't it? To sort of, you know, change the
discussion all the time. And like I say, I think it's
obviously you said yourself, it's a reflection, isn't it, of
the sort of rise of a Zen pick and maybe a comment on that,
(06:46):
which I'm just sort of longing for a fashion discussion.
That's interesting. So I'm up for that, you know,
sort of provocative reflection of the fat weight loss jabs have
come in and I don't know why that's so sort of problematic.
Well. In in amongst all of this,
though, we've got a very political row going on in
America around Sidney Sweeney, Now, American Eagle do this ad
(07:06):
campaign, a load of people sort of jump on it on social media
and accuse them of supporting eugenics and white supremacy and
all of that because she's talking about genes.
They of course deny it and say it's just about the genes.
In amongst all of that, it's revealed that she's a registered
Republican. Trump swings in behind her and
says she's hot, this is amazing,best dad ever, and it's a
(07:30):
commercial success. That.
That's quite weird, isn't it? I would say that anything that
Trump gets behind and says that's hot, steer clear of do
not touch with the but. People aren't clearly.
I mean, you know, he's, you know, MAG is a big movement.
Lots of people are prepared to buy into it.
And it's a commercial success. Yeah.
But I think also people, that's how buying power has shifted,
(07:51):
isn't it? People are talking about their
politics through what they buy. The way you see people sort of
boycott Israel, for example. But I mean, yeah, like Trump
being interested in in some jeans, like, I guess it is.
It just only reflects really howpolitically divisive things are
now that people feel that they want to show their support for
Trump in this mad way but bang some frankly rather horrible
sort of mum shaped jeans. But I suppose, but where, where
(08:14):
does that fit in, if you like, in terms of, you know, the
culture war, you know, is, is American fashion again, sort of
just now picking sides? You know, you've got Beyoncé
with her Levi's ad and Sidney Sweeney with her American Eagle
ad and you've got people sort oftaking sides and wearing,
wearing badges to show, I suppose.
(08:37):
Well, it is certainly interesting that fashion.
Yeah, it's, and it just shows how divisive things are in
America that people are picking up on that and they're
discussing. I mean, people would compare a
sort of just a jeans advertisement to Nazism.
It's just sort of wild. And it just goes to show on both
sides of the discussion how polarized things have got
really, that people, you know, feel such strong affinity that
to those sort of things. But it happened with the
(08:57):
Budweiser ad as well, didn't it?Yeah, and, and, and I do hear
that. I do hear that it's kind of
taken on a real life of its own.But I think that in part the
success of the body positive movement a handful of years ago
was because people started voicing on social media
actually, is this OK? I'm not happy with this.
Can we get more representation? So I'm all for people calling
(09:17):
things out when they think, yeah, that's defensive.
Well, that's not good enough. But do you think the
progressives fell into the trap again, if you like of, of, of
saying something that was, you know, slightly over the top for
a lot of people, You know, that you went, they went, they jumped
straight for Nazi off the back of a jeans campaign, which which
just enabled, you know, everybody else to go off.
(09:39):
You know, This is why Woke Koreais a disaster.
Absolutely, and it was such clickbait and the response was
so predictable. One sort of suspects that might
have been part of the advertising campaign itself.
Shawny. Deliberate.
Yeah. I mean, it just seemed so like,
automatic. It sort of happened straight
away, You know, this sort of provocative advertisement in
which he's playing with the sortof offensive idea of eugenics,
which she can't have realized isnot happening at a time when
(10:01):
Trump's camping down on immigration.
So I think what is interesting to me about Sydney Sweeney is
she has chosen to lean into those discussions not sort of
verbally. She's not saying in.
The past she has. Well, she knows her body is
going to be the centre of those discussions anyway and she's
willing to like, let it be and sort of engage in those
conversations rather than let other people have them over her
(10:21):
and and not be sort of part of that debate herself.
I think other women's bodies arealways used in that way.
Look at Kim Kardashian or Dolly Parton, people are always
talking about how women's bodieslook.
Sydney Sweeney's interesting to me because she's done nothing to
make her body look particularly different.
She's not had a boob dog. She's not gone some sort of
bleach blonde. She just looks the way she
looks, and she can't seem to winjust by sort of having boobs and
(10:42):
going on telly. People say she's the harbinger
of the death of woke. I mean, that's the sort of
extreme time she's living in. I love her for leaning into that
and saying, OK, well, I'll do anad.
I'll do, you know, produce some soap in which I pretend it's
made from my bath water. I think she's sort of hilarious,
isn't she? She's definitely playing the
game and winning. But how?
How does that fit into your whole worry about how women
(11:05):
aren't in control of this conversation?
And she might be in control momentarily of making a load of
money and, you know, raising herfame.
But is she playing into something that is actually quite
bad for women? She's talked, hasn't she, about
an interviews, but how she feelsthis, she's lost control of her
body. People have these conversations
over her body. I was thinking about that essay
(11:26):
by like Emily Ratajkowski where she talks about paparazzi
snapping her image and then someone taking that image and
putting it in a gallery and selling it.
And she sort of plays with this idea of what control she got
over her image. Well, Sydney Sweeney's body is
going to be a matter of discussion and debate anyway and
she's just chosen to say I'm going to try and have a little
bit of control over that. I look, I think ultimately the,
(11:52):
the issue with Sydney Sweeney and the issue even with this
Zara ad, it's not necessarily, you know, these, these bodies
shouldn't be seen or they shouldn't be taking up this
space. It's just the where, where is
everyone else? You know, the average woman in
the UK is a size 16. And so the average size that we
should be seeing in advertising surely is that.
And I don't believe that fashionneeds to be this aspirational,
(12:14):
you know, unreachable thing. I think it should be reflective
of who we actually are. And when it does that, when it
does tap into diversity and represents people, it shows they
make money. Plus size collections make
money. Well, well do well, do they?
I mean, because if, if you know,if they, if they do, if, if it
really was a commercial imperative that drove plus size
models and body positivity, they'd still be doing it.
(12:36):
You know, why would they drop it?
Because. It's no longer fashionable.
It's no, it's no longer, you know, in vogue to represent all
bodies. And also because I don't, I
think a lot of brands don't wantto deal with the backlash
because as much as we did have amoment of body positivity,
brands had to deal with a lot ofpeople who were against that and
didn't agree with that. And a lot of them then have
(12:58):
tapped out the earliest possibleopportunity because they were
just hopping on the bandwagon. So.
How has that played out in your world, particularly online?
I suppose the backlash. Well there's always been
naysayers, there's always been trolls.
I would say there's definitely been a new influx of commentary
on anyone who'd any woman who dares to exist in a body that is
(13:20):
above maybe a size 10. These automatic assumptions
about health. You're irresponsible.
You shouldn't be showing yourself you're disgusting.
Huge amounts of misogyny and body shaming just coming in
endlessly, especially from the kind of TikTok side of things.
Now case you mentioned to weightloss jabs, what what effect do
you think that's had on what's attractive?
(13:45):
I think GLP, we, I think GLP ones have changed everything.
I think they have, we have forever been searching for this
magic miracle weight loss solution.
You know, in the 1920s, we were sold cigarettes as that
solution. There's been drugs like Fen Fen
that were recalled because they did so much damage.
And now we have GLP ones and it I think it goes to show that a
(14:08):
lot of people, they never stopped looking for that miracle
and they were always willing to do whatever they could really to
buy into it. And even now, you know, we don't
know the long term consequences of being on these drugs.
We don't know what's gonna happen in 20 years time.
And yet we've been caught up in this fervour of thin is back in
and it's represented everywhere.And all the, you know, Hollywood
starlets have jumped on the bandwagon.
(14:29):
And I think again, it's that theidea of exclusivity or that
rareness of, you know, we had the kind of Kardashian era where
we saw more curvaceous women. And then as soon as people were
women kind of got more comfy in that snap back to something that
is unattainable and really difficult to achieve is that
kind of exclusivity that we've seen throughout time as well,
(14:51):
especially when it comes to class.
You know, often throughout history, women of a higher class
have always sought to essentially, it just had the
more rare body type, whether that was larger 100 years ago or
thinner. I mean I agree with you that
definitely a problem with the weight loss jabs as you do have
this difference that some women can afford them or men too.
Some people can't afford them, but you know, we can't have a
(15:12):
sort of conversation about thinness and weight loss jabs
without bringing health into it.And I do think, you know,
without sort of making some wildassumption that anyone plus
sizes super unhealthy. I think there's a really
interesting thing happening in asort of post COVID time where
people are thinking about their health more.
You know, we see the headline obesity crisis and the sort of
tabloids, but probably discussions of that in the paper
(15:32):
all the time. And I think people are conscious
of it is a balance. It's not just about looking a
certain way. Some people want to lose weight
because we do know it's healthier and I don't think we
should be chastised for that. Well, of course being fitter,
you know, not eating processed foods, yeah, all those things
are healthier. But like there is a sort of
correlation. Yes.
And I wouldn't make assumptions about people either way.
But you know, yes, it to be too thin is like very unhealthy,
(15:55):
although we also know that to beoverweight is unhealthy.
And we had we had a sort of area, didn't we, when it was
Tess Holiday on the front cover of Cosmopolitan, this great
celebration. And I don't think that's bad,
but maybe it is problematic. You know, now people are being
more health conscious whether weshould promote either end of the
sort of spectrum. I think it's not directly
comparable. I think when we see, you know,
(16:17):
the woman in the Zara ad, she becomes one more example in this
never ending stream of extreme thinness that we are seeing.
And it just plays into the already existing narrative that
thin is the best way to be and the only way to be for women.
Whereas when we see one plus size person, even a very, you
know, much larger plus size person, that is not adding onto
a narrative already that, you know, pressures women to gain
(16:40):
weight or be larger. I.
Mean it was interesting that Zara's response was to point out
that these models had been certified as in good health,
which I'm assuming if they certify thin models, they must
certify everybody as in as in good health.
That's such a good point. Do they certify plus size models
as being in good health? Have you ever heard of that?
(17:02):
Never heard of it. Well, I mean, so it'll, it'll be
interesting what that actually means and who does the
assessment. But I mean, is, is the health
conversation a bit of a fib? You know, I suppose is, is, is,
is what I, you know, wonder in the same way that the whole plus
size rationale was about, you know, it makes commercial sense
(17:24):
because most people aren't, you know, thin and tall and, you
know, and beautiful. And so we've got to represent
the, the, the consumer that thatwas sort of a bit of a post op
rationalization for fashion. And that maybe this is the same,
that the health benefits of being thin through weight loss
jabs might be a bit of a post oprationalization for the truth,
(17:45):
which is just the establishment like blonde, white, thin people.
And and that's that's what the establishment view of what's
attractive is. Here we all are.
But also the establishment like to make money.
Come on, GL the the the GLP wellI.
Mean, I suppose the establishment is, is is a bit of
(18:06):
a get out for me. I mean, you know, but people,
society, the Western world, the ideal of of what is attractive
in our society is still thin, Yeah, and isn't going to change.
Look, I think it's a it's a nuanced conversation when we
want to talk about health and GLP ones.
And obviously you can't tell anyone individual what they can
and can't do for their body and what they think they're doing
(18:26):
for their health. But also, I personally think
it's kind of absurd to promote something on the basis of health
that we literally don't know what it is doing long term to
people's health. But that's a slightly separate
issue, because that's that's about substance.
We're talking about the the sortof ephemeral nonsense of
appearance, aren't we? I actually let you know, let let
(18:49):
alone you know, put put the hellof a side.
We're just talking about how people look.
I'm probably sort of not fashionable enough, but like to
me it feels like there's been a shift towards strength, you
know, with people finding like stronger looking bodies more
attractive. I think that reflects a sort of
shift towards health. I, you know, Zara side, which is
a sort of fashion brand or is trying to, you know, associate
itself with being a high fashionbrand.
(19:09):
Like actually, I think a lot of the images we see are of like
strong women. You know, I'm thinking in pop,
people like Katy Perry or like, you know, wet legs performance
at Glastonbury, Like people likestrong women are finding that
there's a move towards that and not this sort of thinness.
I'm I'm surprised when you talk about it being sort of
ubiquitous because we must have different algorithms on our
social media aspect. I think we do.
I I do agree that there definitely was a push towards
(19:32):
strength, but to me that was almost happening now a few years
ago. And even when we are seeing
these like very strong women, it's still an incredibly low
body fat percentage. We don't.
We don't often see women who arestrong and soft at the same
time. Do you feel cheated by people
like Lizzo who've chosen to use weight loss jobs?
(19:52):
I know I'm curious like, becauseI guess she's talked both about
the fact that she wants to represent body positivity and at
the same time, you know, she's sort of obviously on a sort of
health, she has talked about it as a health journey, hasn't she?
She has and and you know, my opinion is she can obviously do
what she wants with her own body.
It doesn't feel great to have lost a really key figure of
(20:13):
representation of of the movements.
A lot of people do feel betrayedby that.
There's kind of a sense of grief, I think, which is
understandable. But again, I try not to kind of
project my feelings onto her as an individual because she can do
what she wants. It feels so surprising that when
we have this discussion, we start with Sydney Sweeney,
though, because when I see her, I think that is a return to body
(20:33):
positivity, isn't it? I mean, she's not a Zara thin
model because. She's not.
Yes. She's not manipulated her body.
You know, the last person we were having these intense
debates around, which was sort of Kim Kardashian really did
feel like a body that was sort of manipulated and unobtainable.
Whereas Sidney Sweeney looks reasonably natural.
It's just what she looks like, isn't it?
But the, the, the Sidney Sweeneydebate, I suppose is, is again,
(20:53):
it's about what's attractive, isn't it?
And, and you know, specifically the, the the controversy is
around, is she saying, you know,blonde, white, blue eyes is
what's attractive and in and in and in Trump's mega world, it
largely is, you know, if you look at what's happening to mega
women and author, you know, his half of his cabinet and the
(21:18):
people around him and the amountof plastic surgery that's going
on amongst those women and the traditional look, that is a
type, isn't it? That's where the controversy is
with Sidney Sweeney, that she's playing into all of that.
I guess, but again, that feeling, it just feels
relentless for women. You know, Pamela Anderson
doesn't wear makeup. We have a conversation about
that Trump and women, you know, look over inflated or wear too
(21:40):
much makeup. We have to have a conversation
about that. If women have Botox, they're
done. If they don't have Botox, you
know, if they're too big or if they're too small, it just feels
sort of relentless. Actually, I said to your
producer, I got asked to come onhere in the first day.
I thought, it's what am I going to wear, you know, which is just
so boring or something that's intensely boring, being a woman,
but having to think about your sort of, you know, I just want
to sit around reading books. Like for a man, I just don't
(22:01):
feel they're having these relentless conversations about
how they look and having to think about that all the time.
I wouldn't assume that to be honest, because I think I think
particularly with young men, theyou know, their look is
something a lot of them are obsessing about as well.
And you know, we know that eating disorders are massive
amongst men now and and mental health crisis because of it as
well. But it's in, it's different,
(22:22):
certainly. It's not not happening for men,
but I don't think it's making front page news in the same way
for women. No, but that's but that's, you
know, again, that's capitalism, isn't it?
It's, it's, it's, it's industries run either by men or
women in male owned industries that drive that conversation.
(22:43):
I mean, in terms of where you think this is going, is it just
fashion like is, is this just another phase we'll go through
and it'll come back round? Is this driven by Trump and that
once that goes, something else will come along?
Or is it more profound than that?
(23:03):
Look, I think it's all interconnected.
I don't think you can say this is solely because of any one
thing. I think the current zeitgeist
that we are in, we are leaning towards conservatism.
We are, you know, there's these kind of purity politics
happening again for women. And the thin white, blonde, blue
eyed figure is kind of looming over as the ideal once again.
And these are all kind of intertwined with each other.
(23:26):
My feeling and the feeling of many people I've spoken to.
I was interviewing Jamila Jamil recently and even she said just
hold on. Just brace yourself and hold on
because we know that this will circle back around.
We have been here before, we'll be here again.
So just wait for it. And then probably five years,
maybe body positivity will have a boom again.
And how important is it, in thatmeantime, to keep banging the
(23:48):
drum, keep talking about it, keep writing about it, keep
doing what you're doing on social?
Media, it's so important and it's, you know, it's not just
important for women like me, it's important for all people
and especially, you know, our teenage girls, the girls who are
shopping on Zara everyday and seeing that advert or on Tiktok
and getting sucked into skinny talk.
That is why we need to change the narrative and continue to
(24:08):
have the representation that is the bare minimum.
You know, diversity and representation.
That's not the most that a brandcan do.
It's the absolute least and it'sfrankly just cowardly that they
don't. What is skinny talk?
It's the modern day equivalent of of pro Anna content, which
kind of used to live and thrive on Tumblr and now skinny talk is
content that is actively saying this is how I get really thin.
(24:34):
Promoting disordered eating behaviours.
You know, idolising very thin women.
And and that's able to happen way beyond the scope of any kind
of regulation or online Safety Act or.
Anything. Give it five years again and
there'll probably be some kind of act around it.
But it's happening now, yeah. And that feels ironic because it
is actually driven by young women themselves, which suggests
(24:56):
that it's not just women being or young people being influenced
by advertising, but also that they, you know, the sort of
dialectical conversation that they're promoting that stuff
themselves, aren't they, online?And there is, you know, I mean,
just poke, poke you a little bitwith your why are we talking
about this? I mean, you wrote an article
about Sidney Sweeney. You're talking about it.
No, I want to talk about it, butI'm saying we shouldn't.
(25:18):
I, I, I, you know, I want to celebrate her.
I want to celebrate the fact she's lent into this discussion
that's happening over her body that she can't control.
You know, it's a capitalist thing.
She's talked about how nowadays you can't just be an actress,
you know, you have to sort of promote brands, you have to do
other work that the people are going to talk about her body and
take that away from her. So I really wanted to sort of
write something and say, you know, I support her actually.
And I understand otherwise a young woman, the only way maybe
(25:40):
to seize control of that discussion of that public
discussion of your body, that public discussion that's
happening about her breasts thatare just part of her body that
she can't do anything about, Youknow what she should.
It's just like now she's trying to seize control of that in some
way. And I just want to sort of like
celebrate for that for her and stand up for it a bit because it
feels like she's attracted nothing but criticism.
Thank you both very much indeed.That's it for this episode of
(26:02):
The Forecast. Until next time, bye bye.
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