October 9, 2025 • 26 mins
After two years of relentless war, devastation, and loss in Gaza — a ceasefire has finally been agreed that will see all remaining Israeli hostages freed in exchange for thousands of Palestinian detainees.
It’s a stunning diplomatic breakthrough, driven by Donald Trump’s personal intervention — but can this fragile deal really end the war, or is it just another pause before the next explosion of violence?
In this special episode of The Fourcast from Hostage Square in Tel Aviv Krishnan Guru-Murthy is joined by Palestinian filmmaker and journalist Yousef Hammash and former Israeli peace negotiator Daniel Levy.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The relief is palpable, but perpetual war may not yet be in
the rearview mirror. A huge achievement for us to
know that at least this. Butcherry will, will, will stop.
The killing will stop. If we return to impunity while
Israel continues occupation and apartheid and structural
violence, Israeli society is likely to stay in this horror
(00:23):
doom loop. Two years of continuous bombing.
10s of thousands of tons of explosives and then we just stop
it for the globe is dangerous. There's no accountability for
what happened. What is your gut feeling?
Have we seen the end of the killing and are we closer to A2
state solution or not? Hello and welcome to the
(00:45):
forecast. I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and
we're coming to you today from Hostage Square in Tel Aviv on an
extraordinary day that may well turn out to be historic in the
long term. There's a there's a real mix of
feelings here in the square today.
Obviously there is joy and happiness and an enormous amount
(01:07):
of relief, but we've also encountered a lot of people who
are exhausted with their worry, exhausted now that they have
some sense of relief. And we've spoken to hostage
families whose loved ones have have already died in Gaza, who
are also reflecting on their their fury that this war took so
(01:31):
long to bring to an end and thattheir loved ones died while it
went on. Well, joining me now is Yusuf
Hamash, who has worked for Channel 4 News as a producer for
many years in Gaza for a long period of time, but now is based
in London. And Daniel Levy, who worked as a
negotiator within the Israeli government, but has been a a
(01:52):
long time critic of the way the Netanyahu government has handled
things. Yusuf, let me begin with you.
I mean, what I've been asking people all day is how do you
feel? So now at first, as a
Palestinians, we have really mixed feelings of understanding,
first of all, what just happened?
Yeah, we woke up on this news that there is an end of the war.
It's still. Vague and vague and no one
(02:14):
really understand what's happening next.
So it's, it's even I was reaching to our talk, my
families, my relatives, my friends, my colleagues on the
ground. People are really doesn't really
understand what they are going through mentally.
Because I think now it's an opportunity for Palestinians in
Gaza to try to reconciliate withwhat happened the past two
years. And now it's an opportunity for,
(02:36):
for people to grieve more. And unfortunately, the, the, we
cannot see an horizon after thisfor, for people in Gaza.
They just want stopping the bombing.
And I don't think we have a clear understanding for us
coming next. It's a huge achievement for us
to know that at least. This butcher will, will will
(02:57):
stop. The killing will stop, but.
More than that, people are stilllost without any horizon for
what's happening next, what's going to happen tomorrow, and
understanding of the details of this agreement and also the lack
of trust for from Palestinians in Gaza with the international
community. And because this is not the
first experience, this is the third ceasefire if we
(03:17):
accomplished it, and this is theif.
There's the huge questions for. For Gaza's now, are we are going
to go back for the cycle of violence soon or not?
It's another month of truth or it's an A permanent end of this
war. Then you would have thousands of
follow up questions about what'sgoing to happen next.
Yeah. I mean, Dan, as as Yousaf says,
(03:38):
I mean today feels historic and it feels different and everybody
here says that, but we have beenhere before in truth.
We have, and Youssef captured itso well there in terms of that
sense of vagueness, that absenceof of detail alongside the huge
sense of relief. But there have been ceasefires
that broke down before Israel reneged on them.
(04:00):
Israel resumed its its attacks. Netanyahu's narrative will lean
into victory, but it will also lean into threats.
The relief is palpable, of course, what we just heard about
people in Gaza, with all the uncertainty, the prospect that
(04:21):
they can look up into the sky and it's a place of hope rather
than a place buzzing with dronesand bombs, the prospect of the
massively, desperately needed humanitarian assistance getting
in there. But still this uncertainty, Will
the Egyptian border crossing be open or will it still be
(04:42):
controlled by Israelis? Is the IDF still going to nickel
and dime the entry of everything?
Of course, you're in hostage square, Krishnan.
And the, the, the sense of of, of relief for those families,
for those Israelis being held. Some hoping that maybe Israel
can turn a leaf. You have the Palestinian
(05:03):
prisoners who are going to get out, but this still feels like a
first phase. There are details even on the
first phase that apparently still need to be nailed down.
Assuming everyone is now locked into this, can it hold?
Because I would imagine that it's not an unrealistic thing to
(05:24):
suggest that wherever the Israeli military withdraws to in
Gaza, and the Israelis are saying they'll still occupy more
than 50% of Gaza, wherever they withdraw to at the moment of the
hostage release is going to be very hard to get them out of
after that. And the idea that one can just
trust Trump is an awful lot to pin on very little.
(05:50):
I think one of the things that has got us over the line is that
the mediators from the region, Qatar, Turkia, Egypt, and
especially those first two are able to say to Hamas and to
Palestinians more generally, youhave seen that we are able to
work closely with Trump. This isn't January when it was a
(06:11):
leap of faith. We're in October now.
You've seen our meetings. You've seen that we were able to
bring Netanyahu to that apology.We can get Trump to stick to
this. But it it still feels like a
leap of faith. And of course, Krishnan, at the
same time you've got what's going on in the West Bank where
not only is there no commitment whatsoever, West Bank isn't
(06:33):
mentioned in the 20 points by Israel in terms of its ongoing
military actions, its ongoing displacement, its ongoing theft
of Palestinian land there. But you could also well envisage
a scenario where one of the things Netanyahu says to his
coalition allies in order for that coalition not to collapse
is watch what I'm going to do elsewhere.
(06:54):
We can do our worst in the West Bank while this is going on.
And we will be back causing mayhem in Gaza before too long.
That's in addition, of course, of the fact that Israel's been
bombing in Lebanon and in Syria.What might happen next in Iran?
So perpetual war may not yet be in the rearview mirror.
Yousef I mean, Israel, as you know, is a very political
(07:14):
society. People are engaged on this
day-to-day and they are already able to have that quite
sophisticated political discussion here about what comes
now, what is the impact on the Israeli government, what will
happen next year in the Israeli elections, what kind of
government they want and whetherthey believe at the moment in A2
state solution. And the overwhelming feeling
(07:36):
here when you talk to people is we're not ready for that
conversation yet. We're still engaged with our own
political process and getting the hostages back and working
out how we feel about what is what happened.
I mean, for for Gazans who have no structure and whose
day-to-day existence is just about survival, how how do they
begin to have a conversation about what kind of leadership
(07:59):
they want, what kind of government they want, what kind
of statehood they might want? I think this is a, this is an
important part of what Gazans are thinking about now.
It's so if even ending this war,so we'll get back to the 18
years of siege that we've seen before, we would have a new
coalition government. The reconstruction, what that
(08:19):
mean as a reconstruction process, reconstruction stones
is not only reconstruction the society that have been exposed
to all of that and also what's going to happen next.
You are talking about all these details and agreement about
disarming Hamas, getting Hamas out of that current governing of
Gaza, but within and Israelis also from their side.
(08:41):
They're refusing to have the PA because then you have a legit
partner at the table that you need to negotiate a statehood or
a bad way for a solution. But what's going to happen next
for for people in Gaza, that's what they think more about it is
just reconstructing Gaza have the civil infrastructure for
human beings to live normal life, health sector that was
(09:02):
wiped out, education sector thatwas wiped out.
What they have been exposed to in the last two years, they need
years just to recover and understand exactly what we've
gone through. 92% of the infrastructure in Gaza was
destroyed and houses and it's basically an unlivable place.
So the, the, the, the, the only thing that they're really on now
(09:23):
is a bit of aid so they can survive increasing, improving
their living conditions while they are still living in these
tents and just scattered and, and, and, and, and the southern
part of Gaza mostly. But what is the political
horizon for them? There is nothing.
What is the new leadership? The people in Gaza are not
really engaged on that and they don't think about it because
they have a different aspect which is day-to-day queuing for
(09:45):
water, day-to-day find food for their children, secure what they
need to have a day-to-day life. And the cycle of life again is
one day. But now there is an opportunity
for them first to grieve and to understand what they've gone
through. And then we will need to think.
I don't think it's going to be acceptable for people in Gaza to
go through two years of hell andthen oh, we just stop the
bombing and it's fine. Then.
(10:06):
No, it's, it's not fine. We need a path, we need a
horizon for what's going to happen next, not only
reconstructing Gaza. It's not only the issue.
Never been since October 7th. You have 18 years of siege
before you have 7 to 8 years of occupation.
We, we, there's lots of questions, need answers.
If there's a society as you mentioned is not prepared
because they are busy with theirinternal political scheme.
(10:28):
Also as, as Palestinians, we need to understand who is
representing us as, as Palestinians, we are, we have
never been lucky with a decent leadership to, to represent us
as, as Palestinians, not only inGaza.
The, the, the, the, the problem is not only Hamas and it's not
only the PA, the, the problem isthe political scheme as
Palestinian as a whole need to be revised.
(10:49):
And we need, as Palestinian first we need to understand what
we want. Do we want to state on 6773
TOEFL to solution resolution? So far as Palestinians, we don't
have ideal contribution. What's going on in our for our
future, for our horizon because we have no one no Palestinians
(11:10):
were involved in all of that even this 21 point agreement by
it was Trump and Netanyahu sitting there looking in their
interests and especially mainly the interest of the Israeli
government and Netanyahu himself.
No one thought about the interest of these Gazans.
OK, stopping the bombing. What next?
408 truck per day? If you are really serious about
(11:31):
a pathway, a solution and in a permanent end of this war, you
would give an indicator that youwant that.
While allowing aid. Talking seriously about
improving living conditions here, finding a plan to
reconstruct Gaza ethically, not only reconstruct stones.
There is no one functioning hospital in Gaza.
(11:52):
There is no one school in Gaza and you have over 2 million
people going through this. There is no horizon either from
their side. And unfortunately for
negotiation team leadership, Trump administration, no one
thought about that. No one thought what we need for
people in Gaza. I mean, the the removal of Hamas
from the pictures is is is such an article of faith from Israel.
But during the course of the themilitary campaign, they drew no
(12:16):
distinction between military andcivil members of the Hamas
administration. And that meant that you're if if
you were involved in, you know, the the water services or
agriculture or civil administration, you were treated
as connected to Hamas. Do you think they are now
(12:37):
prepared to draw a distinction and accept that there are going
to be people who are part of theprevious administration who have
to be part of the rebuilding in the future, now in this new
transitional administration and beyond?
Well, of course, it was the absence of not only drawing that
distinction, but also failing todraw any distinction between
(12:58):
combatant and civilian, the indiscriminate and
disproportionate targeting of the civilian population which
has led to this designation by the UN Commission of Inquiry and
many others of of this being a genocide.
Which means that there is a casebeing held, being heard at the
International Court of Justice on the South African motion
(13:20):
being put forward regarding genocide.
And that's why the Israeli PrimeMinister has an International
Criminal Court arrest warrant against him for war crimes.
And the Israelis have said, the Israeli leadership has said,
that there can be no Palestiniangovernance by anything
recognized as Palestinian. And in that 20 point plan, what
(13:44):
you actually have is a suggestion for a kind of
external, almost imperial colonial blueprint of the
outsiders who will rule Gaza, including our former Prime
Minister Tony Blair. So that doesn't sound like it's
going to be a moment to acknowledge Palestinian self
(14:11):
governance. Again, the other images you've
seen coming out of these talks, of course, is Hamas is there.
The Hamas leadership is there. They've gotten through this.
The very people who Israel triedto assassinate last month in
Doha are the people who were sitting across the table
negotiating this deal, relegating the internationally
(14:32):
recognized leadership in Ramallah, President Abbas and
the Palestinian Authority to therole of onlookers.
I mean, Abbas came out with a a statement in relation to the
ceasefire, which could have beenissued in London or Paris or
Berlin. They were that distant from the
managing of affairs. So that whole there's a bit of a
of a chicken and egg. In other words, that on the one
(14:54):
hand, Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinians anyway,
but on the other hand, unless Palestinians can create some
kind of political renewal and unification and capacity to
credibly say this is who represents us, it will be easier
to impose those external structures and it will be easier
(15:15):
for Israel not to go along with that.
I think part of the question will also depend on what happens
domestically as a result inside Israeli politics, how this plays
out now. And perhaps that's something
we'll talk about. Yeah, I mean, just in terms of
sort of Netanyahu and his changeof position.
I mean, obviously everybody says, well, it's Trump.
(15:36):
Trump's forced him into this position, but he also had to go
along with it. I mean, you know what, What kind
of threat was he under if he didn't go along with this plan
and what might be in his head? Because, you know, the whole
argument has been he's prolonging the war because he
wants to stay in power. Ending the war makes his
(15:58):
government very vulnerable because the right wing, although
they're not collapsing the government yet, they now hold
that threat, you know, all, all through the next few months.
And they say that they are opposed to this peace plan.
So why has he done it? So yes, there is the element of
could he say no to Trump? Was he in a position to do so?
(16:21):
Is that more risky? But I think also Netanyahu will
feel that he has a victory narrative that he can take out
if he gets these hostages home. He will say, I was told that
this couldn't happen. It's only because I stuck to my
guns. It's only because we made these
military threats, we moved on Gaza City, the things we did
before. He will have his victory
(16:42):
narrative in that he is strengthened by the fact that
the American administration is likely to want to assist his
victory narrative. He's done what they asked, so
now they will likely deliver forhim.
There's talk of Trump visiting Israel in the coming days,
perhaps speaking in the Knesset,the Israeli parliament, and he
will very likely wrap his arms around Netanyahu and embrace
(17:04):
him. Netanyahu is also assisted by
the fact that the opposition, he's very weak.
If those coalition allies don't bring him down, then, as I
suggest, we should probably expect that he is able to still
be the war leader because there are issues with Iran, with
Syria, with Lebanon, with the West Bank, and perhaps before
too long, with Gaza that still need resolving.
(17:28):
Hopefully there is another side to that equation that I've just
spelt out for you. Will we at the same time see
Israeli society, some of it, enough of it, a growing part of
it, say we don't want to go backto this, perhaps even something
that has failed to really Piercein any significant way
(17:50):
mainstream Israeli consciousnessof what has been done by them
and in their name in Gaza? Will we see yourselves in
others? Will we even see the Israeli
media reporting on the reality of what's been done in Gaza, on
those horrors being able to access Gaza?
Will that change some kind of dynamic or will something else
(18:11):
change the dynamic? And this is also part of the
story of why Netanyahu felt he needed to to agree to this,
which is the pressure that was mounting.
It was mounting primarily because people, especially
amongst Israel's allies in the West, especially in Europe and
elsewhere, were taking to the streets and demanding of their
governments to act. And even if those governments
(18:32):
were reluctant, you saw the beginnings of a floodgate
appearing to open, whether in Italy, whether the the fact that
countries had to recognize Palestine in response to that
public. And then they would probably be
expected to do more after that. And Netanyahu spoke of
isolation. And today he's suggesting, hey,
we're not isolated. And Trump actually turned around
(18:53):
and said, hey, you're popular again.
I'm not so sure if we return to impunity while Israel continues
occupation and apartheid and structural violence.
If we return to impunity, Israeli society is likely to
stay in this horror doom loop. If there is pressure, perhaps we
will see a different debate inside Israel.
Yousef, how, how important is accountability to the people in
(19:18):
Gaza? You know, are are they able to
think about that yet? You know, is there a danger that
will become the price of development and getting on with
the future and making progress in peace talks that you don't
get the day in court. I agree with what you said.
Unfortunately that's the realityand no one can help Israel
accountable. We we reconciliate with that
(19:39):
even the the entire globe all what the the IT takes them two
years to convince Netanyahu to stop bombing Gaza and but what
what comes after that. If this is we cannot have this
experience again. If you have 18 years of siege
end up with October 7th. We also what happened now do you
think that after this two years experience for people in Gaza
(20:01):
and there's no one held accountable for what they've
gone through what you're expecting from them more in
another 18 years. This is an endless cycle.
If it's not about Hamas, you cantake off Hamas from the sea and
there will be another form of Hamas.
If you didn't have a clear horizon for for for that
population and and this is as long you always.
Justifying for these people on the ground to be more
(20:24):
radicalized because what they are going through, what they're
experiencing 1st 18 years of siege away from the occupation
where everything was controlled,nothing come in and out the
level condition that we weren't going through.
Again, I agree with Daniel that we don't have our political
horizons as Palestinians. We are not unified.
We don't really understand exactly what we want, which kind
of state we are looking for. 6773 total for two years.
(20:47):
All this complexity and unfortunately we with that the
fragile political society we have as Palestinians also make
us more vulnerable and be more exposed to all of this.
Two years of horror and also it give a justification for the
world, the Arabs, the Israelis, there's Hamas, is the PA there?
As long we have this fragile political scheme and there is no
(21:09):
horizon and solution for people in Gaza and West Bank for a
permanent long term solution. This is this is just a one
experience and we'll see others.Let me just ask you both.
And finally, I mean, what is your gut feeling?
You know, have we seen the end of the killing and are we closer
(21:31):
to A2 state solution or not? Dan.
Netanyahu has continued to tell us there'll be no two states,
there's no one on that Zionist political spectrum who has the
prospect of getting into power in the short term that is
talking seriously about two states.
They're all talking than perhapsthe leader of the Labour
Democrats, IO Golan. They're all talking about
(21:52):
annexation and other things. We've seen the very disturbing
and dangerous example that they made great strides in terms of
displacing Palestinians, ethnically cleansing and they
may well see even after war, theopportunity of things are kept
quite desperate to try and get Palestinians to move out of Gaza
and then to replicate that in the West Bank.
(22:13):
They set up the Israelis in the Defence Ministry, an authority
dedicated to what they called the voluntary transfer of
Palestinians. Says a lot of really dangerous,
disturbing precedents that have been set and a sense of where
they could go with this. I say all that very depressing
stuff on what should be a day ofgreater hope, not just to be the
(22:34):
skunk at the party, but because I think it tells us what needs
to be avoided and that the very words that Youssef said are
never applied here, desperately need to be applied and I believe
can be applied not easily, whichis accountability.
If Israel sees that they can getaway with it, I fear that
(22:56):
relatively soon we will be back there.
I do hope that from inside Israeli society a different
modus operandi, a different way of thinking about looking at
Palestinians is generated because hope is a security
currency. You can't have security under
occupation and apartheid. You also can't have security
(23:17):
unless there is some hope to those other people.
And then there is of course thatdesperately needed change also
on the Palestinian side to go through political renewal.
I don't think that this is goingto rely on Trump.
I do imagine that the attention span turns elsewhere relatively
fast, especially once the Israeli hostages are released.
(23:38):
You didn't even have a referenceto the word Palestinians in
Trump's Truth Social post. He said everyone will welcome
this Arab Muslim Israel listed. The mediator didn't recognize
that there's such a thing as Palestinians.
But where do we draw hope that Ithink what has happened in terms
of the the the traction, the shifting of a cultural zeitgeist
(24:02):
when it comes to the Palestinians globally, I think
that is something that may yet drive forward a challenge to
impunity and hopefully that is something to hold onto and to
build on. Youssef I I think if there was
no accountability for what had happened the last two years,
it's not that mean that it mighthave been again.
(24:23):
And you will see that you will see that in other places.
Because if this gone through as normal thing happened for the
last two years, watching all of and experiencing as Gazans
what's going in in Gaza and the world is just watching this is
will allow for any dictator war criminal to do that with that
justification. As long it's been allowed
somewhere, it will be allowed many, many other places and, and
(24:47):
unfortunately, the internationalcommunity would have to
understand that it shouldn't just be an end of the war if
it's just stopping the bombing. Yeah, 300, almost three 10s of
thousands of people have been killed.
There is no hope for the thousands of injured people in
in in Gaza and list over 60,000 people listed for medical
(25:08):
evacuation. 78% of the population want to leave because
it's an unlevel place. And two years of continuous
bombing, 10s of thousands of tons of explosives and then we
just stop it. And that's not only for
Palestinians, it's dangerous forus, for the globe, it's
dangerous. If there's no accountability for
what happened, then who your when and how you are going to
(25:28):
help anyone work any other work criminal accountable.
This is a justification for others.
That's why it's really dangerous.
It's a dangerous moment. It's a good good.
Day to start having hope as Palestinians.
That this bombing will stop, butthen the world have to realise
that that's wrong and this should be accountability.
Thank you both very much indeed.I should say that, I mean,
obviously standing here in Ostrich Square that the people
(25:50):
you tend to meet here, I'm not confident that a, you know, a
Palestinian state is anything that's is going to be on the
agenda. And, and most of them who I've
spoken to today don't particularly want it to be on
the agenda right now. They just say it's too soon.
At what point it becomes no longer too soon as far from
(26:13):
clear. But right now in Ostrich Square,
they are focused on 20 people who are still living in Gaza,
who they want to get out and theremains of those who are dead.
And so it's a very, very narrow focus in contrast to, I suppose,
your focus, Yusuf and and and Dan, on millions of people in
(26:38):
Gaza. Thank you both very much indeed
for your reflections. That's the forecast for now.
Until next time, bye bye.
The relief is palpable, but perpetual war may not yet be in
the rearview mirror. A huge achievement for us to
know that at least this. Butcherry will, will, will stop.
The killing will stop. If we return to impunity while
Israel continues occupation and apartheid and structural
violence, Israeli society is likely to stay in this horror
(00:23):
doom loop. Two years of continuous bombing.
10s of thousands of tons of explosives and then we just stop
it for the globe is dangerous. There's no accountability for
what happened. What is your gut feeling?
Have we seen the end of the killing and are we closer to A2
state solution or not? Hello and welcome to the
(00:45):
forecast. I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and
we're coming to you today from Hostage Square in Tel Aviv on an
extraordinary day that may well turn out to be historic in the
long term. There's a there's a real mix of
feelings here in the square today.
Obviously there is joy and happiness and an enormous amount
(01:07):
of relief, but we've also encountered a lot of people who
are exhausted with their worry, exhausted now that they have
some sense of relief. And we've spoken to hostage
families whose loved ones have have already died in Gaza, who
are also reflecting on their their fury that this war took so
(01:31):
long to bring to an end and thattheir loved ones died while it
went on. Well, joining me now is Yusuf
Hamash, who has worked for Channel 4 News as a producer for
many years in Gaza for a long period of time, but now is based
in London. And Daniel Levy, who worked as a
negotiator within the Israeli government, but has been a a
(01:52):
long time critic of the way the Netanyahu government has handled
things. Yusuf, let me begin with you.
I mean, what I've been asking people all day is how do you
feel? So now at first, as a
Palestinians, we have really mixed feelings of understanding,
first of all, what just happened?
Yeah, we woke up on this news that there is an end of the war.
It's still. Vague and vague and no one
(02:14):
really understand what's happening next.
So it's, it's even I was reaching to our talk, my
families, my relatives, my friends, my colleagues on the
ground. People are really doesn't really
understand what they are going through mentally.
Because I think now it's an opportunity for Palestinians in
Gaza to try to reconciliate withwhat happened the past two
years. And now it's an opportunity for,
(02:36):
for people to grieve more. And unfortunately, the, the, we
cannot see an horizon after thisfor, for people in Gaza.
They just want stopping the bombing.
And I don't think we have a clear understanding for us
coming next. It's a huge achievement for us
to know that at least. This butcher will, will will
(02:57):
stop. The killing will stop, but.
More than that, people are stilllost without any horizon for
what's happening next, what's going to happen tomorrow, and
understanding of the details of this agreement and also the lack
of trust for from Palestinians in Gaza with the international
community. And because this is not the
first experience, this is the third ceasefire if we
(03:17):
accomplished it, and this is theif.
There's the huge questions for. For Gaza's now, are we are going
to go back for the cycle of violence soon or not?
It's another month of truth or it's an A permanent end of this
war. Then you would have thousands of
follow up questions about what'sgoing to happen next.
Yeah. I mean, Dan, as as Yousaf says,
(03:38):
I mean today feels historic and it feels different and everybody
here says that, but we have beenhere before in truth.
We have, and Youssef captured itso well there in terms of that
sense of vagueness, that absenceof of detail alongside the huge
sense of relief. But there have been ceasefires
that broke down before Israel reneged on them.
(04:00):
Israel resumed its its attacks. Netanyahu's narrative will lean
into victory, but it will also lean into threats.
The relief is palpable, of course, what we just heard about
people in Gaza, with all the uncertainty, the prospect that
(04:21):
they can look up into the sky and it's a place of hope rather
than a place buzzing with dronesand bombs, the prospect of the
massively, desperately needed humanitarian assistance getting
in there. But still this uncertainty, Will
the Egyptian border crossing be open or will it still be
(04:42):
controlled by Israelis? Is the IDF still going to nickel
and dime the entry of everything?
Of course, you're in hostage square, Krishnan.
And the, the, the sense of of, of relief for those families,
for those Israelis being held. Some hoping that maybe Israel
can turn a leaf. You have the Palestinian
(05:03):
prisoners who are going to get out, but this still feels like a
first phase. There are details even on the
first phase that apparently still need to be nailed down.
Assuming everyone is now locked into this, can it hold?
Because I would imagine that it's not an unrealistic thing to
(05:24):
suggest that wherever the Israeli military withdraws to in
Gaza, and the Israelis are saying they'll still occupy more
than 50% of Gaza, wherever they withdraw to at the moment of the
hostage release is going to be very hard to get them out of
after that. And the idea that one can just
trust Trump is an awful lot to pin on very little.
(05:50):
I think one of the things that has got us over the line is that
the mediators from the region, Qatar, Turkia, Egypt, and
especially those first two are able to say to Hamas and to
Palestinians more generally, youhave seen that we are able to
work closely with Trump. This isn't January when it was a
(06:11):
leap of faith. We're in October now.
You've seen our meetings. You've seen that we were able to
bring Netanyahu to that apology.We can get Trump to stick to
this. But it it still feels like a
leap of faith. And of course, Krishnan, at the
same time you've got what's going on in the West Bank where
not only is there no commitment whatsoever, West Bank isn't
(06:33):
mentioned in the 20 points by Israel in terms of its ongoing
military actions, its ongoing displacement, its ongoing theft
of Palestinian land there. But you could also well envisage
a scenario where one of the things Netanyahu says to his
coalition allies in order for that coalition not to collapse
is watch what I'm going to do elsewhere.
(06:54):
We can do our worst in the West Bank while this is going on.
And we will be back causing mayhem in Gaza before too long.
That's in addition, of course, of the fact that Israel's been
bombing in Lebanon and in Syria.What might happen next in Iran?
So perpetual war may not yet be in the rearview mirror.
Yousef I mean, Israel, as you know, is a very political
(07:14):
society. People are engaged on this
day-to-day and they are already able to have that quite
sophisticated political discussion here about what comes
now, what is the impact on the Israeli government, what will
happen next year in the Israeli elections, what kind of
government they want and whetherthey believe at the moment in A2
state solution. And the overwhelming feeling
(07:36):
here when you talk to people is we're not ready for that
conversation yet. We're still engaged with our own
political process and getting the hostages back and working
out how we feel about what is what happened.
I mean, for for Gazans who have no structure and whose
day-to-day existence is just about survival, how how do they
begin to have a conversation about what kind of leadership
(07:59):
they want, what kind of government they want, what kind
of statehood they might want? I think this is a, this is an
important part of what Gazans are thinking about now.
It's so if even ending this war,so we'll get back to the 18
years of siege that we've seen before, we would have a new
coalition government. The reconstruction, what that
(08:19):
mean as a reconstruction process, reconstruction stones
is not only reconstruction the society that have been exposed
to all of that and also what's going to happen next.
You are talking about all these details and agreement about
disarming Hamas, getting Hamas out of that current governing of
Gaza, but within and Israelis also from their side.
(08:41):
They're refusing to have the PA because then you have a legit
partner at the table that you need to negotiate a statehood or
a bad way for a solution. But what's going to happen next
for for people in Gaza, that's what they think more about it is
just reconstructing Gaza have the civil infrastructure for
human beings to live normal life, health sector that was
(09:02):
wiped out, education sector thatwas wiped out.
What they have been exposed to in the last two years, they need
years just to recover and understand exactly what we've
gone through. 92% of the infrastructure in Gaza was
destroyed and houses and it's basically an unlivable place.
So the, the, the, the, the only thing that they're really on now
(09:23):
is a bit of aid so they can survive increasing, improving
their living conditions while they are still living in these
tents and just scattered and, and, and, and, and the southern
part of Gaza mostly. But what is the political
horizon for them? There is nothing.
What is the new leadership? The people in Gaza are not
really engaged on that and they don't think about it because
they have a different aspect which is day-to-day queuing for
(09:45):
water, day-to-day find food for their children, secure what they
need to have a day-to-day life. And the cycle of life again is
one day. But now there is an opportunity
for them first to grieve and to understand what they've gone
through. And then we will need to think.
I don't think it's going to be acceptable for people in Gaza to
go through two years of hell andthen oh, we just stop the
bombing and it's fine. Then.
(10:06):
No, it's, it's not fine. We need a path, we need a
horizon for what's going to happen next, not only
reconstructing Gaza. It's not only the issue.
Never been since October 7th. You have 18 years of siege
before you have 7 to 8 years of occupation.
We, we, there's lots of questions, need answers.
If there's a society as you mentioned is not prepared
because they are busy with theirinternal political scheme.
(10:28):
Also as, as Palestinians, we need to understand who is
representing us as, as Palestinians, we are, we have
never been lucky with a decent leadership to, to represent us
as, as Palestinians, not only inGaza.
The, the, the, the, the problem is not only Hamas and it's not
only the PA, the, the problem isthe political scheme as
Palestinian as a whole need to be revised.
(10:49):
And we need, as Palestinian first we need to understand what
we want. Do we want to state on 6773
TOEFL to solution resolution? So far as Palestinians, we don't
have ideal contribution. What's going on in our for our
future, for our horizon because we have no one no Palestinians
(11:10):
were involved in all of that even this 21 point agreement by
it was Trump and Netanyahu sitting there looking in their
interests and especially mainly the interest of the Israeli
government and Netanyahu himself.
No one thought about the interest of these Gazans.
OK, stopping the bombing. What next?
408 truck per day? If you are really serious about
(11:31):
a pathway, a solution and in a permanent end of this war, you
would give an indicator that youwant that.
While allowing aid. Talking seriously about
improving living conditions here, finding a plan to
reconstruct Gaza ethically, not only reconstruct stones.
There is no one functioning hospital in Gaza.
(11:52):
There is no one school in Gaza and you have over 2 million
people going through this. There is no horizon either from
their side. And unfortunately for
negotiation team leadership, Trump administration, no one
thought about that. No one thought what we need for
people in Gaza. I mean, the the removal of Hamas
from the pictures is is is such an article of faith from Israel.
But during the course of the themilitary campaign, they drew no
(12:16):
distinction between military andcivil members of the Hamas
administration. And that meant that you're if if
you were involved in, you know, the the water services or
agriculture or civil administration, you were treated
as connected to Hamas. Do you think they are now
(12:37):
prepared to draw a distinction and accept that there are going
to be people who are part of theprevious administration who have
to be part of the rebuilding in the future, now in this new
transitional administration and beyond?
Well, of course, it was the absence of not only drawing that
distinction, but also failing todraw any distinction between
(12:58):
combatant and civilian, the indiscriminate and
disproportionate targeting of the civilian population which
has led to this designation by the UN Commission of Inquiry and
many others of of this being a genocide.
Which means that there is a casebeing held, being heard at the
International Court of Justice on the South African motion
(13:20):
being put forward regarding genocide.
And that's why the Israeli PrimeMinister has an International
Criminal Court arrest warrant against him for war crimes.
And the Israelis have said, the Israeli leadership has said,
that there can be no Palestiniangovernance by anything
recognized as Palestinian. And in that 20 point plan, what
(13:44):
you actually have is a suggestion for a kind of
external, almost imperial colonial blueprint of the
outsiders who will rule Gaza, including our former Prime
Minister Tony Blair. So that doesn't sound like it's
going to be a moment to acknowledge Palestinian self
(14:11):
governance. Again, the other images you've
seen coming out of these talks, of course, is Hamas is there.
The Hamas leadership is there. They've gotten through this.
The very people who Israel triedto assassinate last month in
Doha are the people who were sitting across the table
negotiating this deal, relegating the internationally
(14:32):
recognized leadership in Ramallah, President Abbas and
the Palestinian Authority to therole of onlookers.
I mean, Abbas came out with a a statement in relation to the
ceasefire, which could have beenissued in London or Paris or
Berlin. They were that distant from the
managing of affairs. So that whole there's a bit of a
of a chicken and egg. In other words, that on the one
(14:54):
hand, Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinians anyway,
but on the other hand, unless Palestinians can create some
kind of political renewal and unification and capacity to
credibly say this is who represents us, it will be easier
to impose those external structures and it will be easier
(15:15):
for Israel not to go along with that.
I think part of the question will also depend on what happens
domestically as a result inside Israeli politics, how this plays
out now. And perhaps that's something
we'll talk about. Yeah, I mean, just in terms of
sort of Netanyahu and his changeof position.
I mean, obviously everybody says, well, it's Trump.
(15:36):
Trump's forced him into this position, but he also had to go
along with it. I mean, you know what, What kind
of threat was he under if he didn't go along with this plan
and what might be in his head? Because, you know, the whole
argument has been he's prolonging the war because he
wants to stay in power. Ending the war makes his
(15:58):
government very vulnerable because the right wing, although
they're not collapsing the government yet, they now hold
that threat, you know, all, all through the next few months.
And they say that they are opposed to this peace plan.
So why has he done it? So yes, there is the element of
could he say no to Trump? Was he in a position to do so?
(16:21):
Is that more risky? But I think also Netanyahu will
feel that he has a victory narrative that he can take out
if he gets these hostages home. He will say, I was told that
this couldn't happen. It's only because I stuck to my
guns. It's only because we made these
military threats, we moved on Gaza City, the things we did
before. He will have his victory
(16:42):
narrative in that he is strengthened by the fact that
the American administration is likely to want to assist his
victory narrative. He's done what they asked, so
now they will likely deliver forhim.
There's talk of Trump visiting Israel in the coming days,
perhaps speaking in the Knesset,the Israeli parliament, and he
will very likely wrap his arms around Netanyahu and embrace
(17:04):
him. Netanyahu is also assisted by
the fact that the opposition, he's very weak.
If those coalition allies don't bring him down, then, as I
suggest, we should probably expect that he is able to still
be the war leader because there are issues with Iran, with
Syria, with Lebanon, with the West Bank, and perhaps before
too long, with Gaza that still need resolving.
(17:28):
Hopefully there is another side to that equation that I've just
spelt out for you. Will we at the same time see
Israeli society, some of it, enough of it, a growing part of
it, say we don't want to go backto this, perhaps even something
that has failed to really Piercein any significant way
(17:50):
mainstream Israeli consciousnessof what has been done by them
and in their name in Gaza? Will we see yourselves in
others? Will we even see the Israeli
media reporting on the reality of what's been done in Gaza, on
those horrors being able to access Gaza?
Will that change some kind of dynamic or will something else
(18:11):
change the dynamic? And this is also part of the
story of why Netanyahu felt he needed to to agree to this,
which is the pressure that was mounting.
It was mounting primarily because people, especially
amongst Israel's allies in the West, especially in Europe and
elsewhere, were taking to the streets and demanding of their
governments to act. And even if those governments
(18:32):
were reluctant, you saw the beginnings of a floodgate
appearing to open, whether in Italy, whether the the fact that
countries had to recognize Palestine in response to that
public. And then they would probably be
expected to do more after that. And Netanyahu spoke of
isolation. And today he's suggesting, hey,
we're not isolated. And Trump actually turned around
(18:53):
and said, hey, you're popular again.
I'm not so sure if we return to impunity while Israel continues
occupation and apartheid and structural violence.
If we return to impunity, Israeli society is likely to
stay in this horror doom loop. If there is pressure, perhaps we
will see a different debate inside Israel.
Yousef, how, how important is accountability to the people in
(19:18):
Gaza? You know, are are they able to
think about that yet? You know, is there a danger that
will become the price of development and getting on with
the future and making progress in peace talks that you don't
get the day in court. I agree with what you said.
Unfortunately that's the realityand no one can help Israel
accountable. We we reconciliate with that
(19:39):
even the the entire globe all what the the IT takes them two
years to convince Netanyahu to stop bombing Gaza and but what
what comes after that. If this is we cannot have this
experience again. If you have 18 years of siege
end up with October 7th. We also what happened now do you
think that after this two years experience for people in Gaza
(20:01):
and there's no one held accountable for what they've
gone through what you're expecting from them more in
another 18 years. This is an endless cycle.
If it's not about Hamas, you cantake off Hamas from the sea and
there will be another form of Hamas.
If you didn't have a clear horizon for for for that
population and and this is as long you always.
Justifying for these people on the ground to be more
(20:24):
radicalized because what they are going through, what they're
experiencing 1st 18 years of siege away from the occupation
where everything was controlled,nothing come in and out the
level condition that we weren't going through.
Again, I agree with Daniel that we don't have our political
horizons as Palestinians. We are not unified.
We don't really understand exactly what we want, which kind
of state we are looking for. 6773 total for two years.
(20:47):
All this complexity and unfortunately we with that the
fragile political society we have as Palestinians also make
us more vulnerable and be more exposed to all of this.
Two years of horror and also it give a justification for the
world, the Arabs, the Israelis, there's Hamas, is the PA there?
As long we have this fragile political scheme and there is no
(21:09):
horizon and solution for people in Gaza and West Bank for a
permanent long term solution. This is this is just a one
experience and we'll see others.Let me just ask you both.
And finally, I mean, what is your gut feeling?
You know, have we seen the end of the killing and are we closer
(21:31):
to A2 state solution or not? Dan.
Netanyahu has continued to tell us there'll be no two states,
there's no one on that Zionist political spectrum who has the
prospect of getting into power in the short term that is
talking seriously about two states.
They're all talking than perhapsthe leader of the Labour
Democrats, IO Golan. They're all talking about
(21:52):
annexation and other things. We've seen the very disturbing
and dangerous example that they made great strides in terms of
displacing Palestinians, ethnically cleansing and they
may well see even after war, theopportunity of things are kept
quite desperate to try and get Palestinians to move out of Gaza
and then to replicate that in the West Bank.
(22:13):
They set up the Israelis in the Defence Ministry, an authority
dedicated to what they called the voluntary transfer of
Palestinians. Says a lot of really dangerous,
disturbing precedents that have been set and a sense of where
they could go with this. I say all that very depressing
stuff on what should be a day ofgreater hope, not just to be the
(22:34):
skunk at the party, but because I think it tells us what needs
to be avoided and that the very words that Youssef said are
never applied here, desperately need to be applied and I believe
can be applied not easily, whichis accountability.
If Israel sees that they can getaway with it, I fear that
(22:56):
relatively soon we will be back there.
I do hope that from inside Israeli society a different
modus operandi, a different way of thinking about looking at
Palestinians is generated because hope is a security
currency. You can't have security under
occupation and apartheid. You also can't have security
(23:17):
unless there is some hope to those other people.
And then there is of course thatdesperately needed change also
on the Palestinian side to go through political renewal.
I don't think that this is goingto rely on Trump.
I do imagine that the attention span turns elsewhere relatively
fast, especially once the Israeli hostages are released.
(23:38):
You didn't even have a referenceto the word Palestinians in
Trump's Truth Social post. He said everyone will welcome
this Arab Muslim Israel listed. The mediator didn't recognize
that there's such a thing as Palestinians.
But where do we draw hope that Ithink what has happened in terms
of the the the traction, the shifting of a cultural zeitgeist
(24:02):
when it comes to the Palestinians globally, I think
that is something that may yet drive forward a challenge to
impunity and hopefully that is something to hold onto and to
build on. Youssef I I think if there was
no accountability for what had happened the last two years,
it's not that mean that it mighthave been again.
(24:23):
And you will see that you will see that in other places.
Because if this gone through as normal thing happened for the
last two years, watching all of and experiencing as Gazans
what's going in in Gaza and the world is just watching this is
will allow for any dictator war criminal to do that with that
justification. As long it's been allowed
somewhere, it will be allowed many, many other places and, and
(24:47):
unfortunately, the internationalcommunity would have to
understand that it shouldn't just be an end of the war if
it's just stopping the bombing. Yeah, 300, almost three 10s of
thousands of people have been killed.
There is no hope for the thousands of injured people in
in in Gaza and list over 60,000 people listed for medical
(25:08):
evacuation. 78% of the population want to leave because
it's an unlevel place. And two years of continuous
bombing, 10s of thousands of tons of explosives and then we
just stop it. And that's not only for
Palestinians, it's dangerous forus, for the globe, it's
dangerous. If there's no accountability for
what happened, then who your when and how you are going to
(25:28):
help anyone work any other work criminal accountable.
This is a justification for others.
That's why it's really dangerous.
It's a dangerous moment. It's a good good.
Day to start having hope as Palestinians.
That this bombing will stop, butthen the world have to realise
that that's wrong and this should be accountability.
Thank you both very much indeed.I should say that, I mean,
obviously standing here in Ostrich Square that the people
(25:50):
you tend to meet here, I'm not confident that a, you know, a
Palestinian state is anything that's is going to be on the
agenda. And, and most of them who I've
spoken to today don't particularly want it to be on
the agenda right now. They just say it's too soon.
At what point it becomes no longer too soon as far from
(26:13):
clear. But right now in Ostrich Square,
they are focused on 20 people who are still living in Gaza,
who they want to get out and theremains of those who are dead.
And so it's a very, very narrow focus in contrast to, I suppose,
your focus, Yusuf and and and Dan, on millions of people in
(26:38):
Gaza. Thank you both very much indeed
for your reflections. That's the forecast for now.
Until next time, bye bye.
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