September 30, 2025 • 15 mins
Labour’s deputy leadership contender and Keir Starmer ally Bridget Phillipson joins Krishnan Guru-Murthy on The Fourcast to set out her vision for the party.
She talks about the threat from Reform UK and Nigel Farage, and how she would still hold Keir Starmer to account even though she’s a cabinet minister and widely believed to be the prime minister’s preferred choice. Plus - does she prefer Tony Blair or Gordon Brown?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
There is a moral case to make aswell about who we are as a
country, what we believe in, andI don't think we win by seeking
to out reform reform. The last thing we need at the
moment is internal squabbles. Divided parties don't win, and
we can't beat reform if we're arguing amongst ourselves.
Theme that that the conference has developed against reform,
about sort of going against our,you know, British nature, if you
(00:22):
like. Where does that go next?
Hello and welcome to the forecast from Labour Party
conference in Liverpool and the first of our deputy leadership
interviews. First up is the Education
Secretary, Bridget Phillips. And welcome.
Hello, write your own job description.
Campaigner in chief, a voice to get things done in government
(00:43):
and bringing together the membership and the movement to
do more brilliant Labour things.So so it's it's a more internal
focus job for you rather than public facing.
So I have the public facing rules, so I think I can combine
the two. But I also would be that link
between the membership and the movement and the party in
government. That's the way it's always been
done in the past where you look at people like Harriet Harman,
(01:05):
John Prescott, Angela Rayner, who were big figures in
government but also had to reachinto the membership and into our
trade union movement. And that's what I think I can
bring I. Mean, normally I would be going
through a load of policies and asking you what you think about
this, that and the other. If it was a leadership contest
and you weren't in government because you're in cabinets, I
assume you're not going to disagree with anything that is
(01:27):
government policy. Well, what I've done
consistently and what I'll always do is to make the case
what needs to happen to represent the views of our
members, our voters and our movement in government.
It's why, you know, I fought tooth and nail to expand free
school meals to half a million more children.
But that only happened because Ihad a seat at the cabinet table
and I could get things done. I wasn't throwing stones from
(01:49):
the outside. Do you feel that is the way to
get things done? Look, I think there's a risk
that if you're not in government, you you're simply
throwing stones, you're not contributing to that wider
direction. What I would bring is the voice
of members, the voice of the movement, but into the heart of
government, putting our values into action.
And what I've been setting out today in the speech I gave to
Labour Party conference is how we do that.
(02:10):
You know, for example, bringing them up maintenance grants,
targeted maintenance grants for less well off students.
Yes, I mean, but if if you're not able to voice the criticism
because you're in the cabinet, how would people know what
you're saying? Because it's about what you
deliver, not just simply what you talk about doing.
And I think members can look at my record of delivery, whether
(02:32):
that's on rolling out early years education and childcare,
the new free breakfast clubs, the further announcement I've
made this week to go even further, half a million more
children benefiting from free school meals.
And today, new targeted maintenance grants for students.
That's the difference you make when you've got a seat at the
cabinet table, when you're able to get things done.
And that would build on the amazing campaigning record of
(02:53):
people like Angela Rayner who did that incredibly effectively
from within government. So, I mean, you're widely
assumed to be one of the big voices calling for an end to the
two child benefit cap in the government, but we don't know
that, you know, would you like to tell me is that what you're
calling for inside? I've been very clear that
scrapping the two child limit ison the table.
(03:14):
I have been leading that work ofthe Child Poverty Task Force.
The evidence is clear. I'm clear about what needs to
happen. Two child limit is on the table,
but I haven't been waiting around for that.
And that's why, you know, 100,000 children next year will
be lifted out of poverty becauseof the action that I've taken as
Education Secretary. I think members can look at my
record, look at what I've delivered and take confidence in
(03:35):
that. But what I'd also say is that
the message I've heard loud and clear from all the people that
are with us here this week is that they want us to unite, to
take the fight to reform and to beat them.
The last thing we need at the moment is internal squabbles.
Divided parties don't win, and we can't beat reform if we're
arguing amongst ourselves. Right.
So, so you think all the leadership talk is, is
(03:56):
destructive at the moment? I mean, you know, if you were,
if you were deputy leader, you'dbe on the NEC in a couple of
months time. A proposal comes forward, Andy
Burnham wants to stand in a by election.
I think I know how Lucy Powell would vote on that candidate
selection. How would you do?
You. Well, I think Lucy Powell's a
(04:18):
big friend of Andy Burnham's andwould support him coming back
into Parliament. Look, I've worked.
Really, I don't know what you would think in that scenario.
Look, I've worked really closelywith Andy.
We've done lots together on skills, a big priority for him
and we've worked with him and with our regional mayors to to
deliver a lot more on skills. But I'm not going to get into
hypotheticals for as to events that you know will or won't
(04:39):
happen. And we did just have a general
election last year. So you know if.
He wants to be an MP. Would you like to see him back
in Parliament? That's a matter if that's up to
him, really. It's not for me to say.
I mean, he's. He's well, it would be if you
were a deputy leader because youget a vote on the NEC.
No. If no, I mean, we're talking
about a few hypotheticals way, way down the line.
Look, Andy's doing a great job in Manchester.
As, as I understand it, he's gotno intention of stepping away
(05:00):
from that position. No.
But it's interesting that you'renot, you're not prepared to say.
I think it'd be great, great to see him back in Parliament.
Well, I'm generally opposed to like hypotheticals about if
there were a by election. If this were to happen, you're
asking me to get a few steps along along a journey that
doesn't actually exist at the moment.
People tend to like hypotheticals they like.
Journalists love. Hypotheticals they.
Journalists love hypotheticals for reasons you will understand,
(05:22):
but I'm I'm not getting into that.
Right. So, so when you say taking the
fight to reform, what do you mean?
Because, you know, we, we, we, Ithink we're not used to seeing
you, you know, in the way that we're perhaps used to seeing
Angela Rayner as a sort of a barnstorming Street Fighter.
I mean, I think my speech is that what you are?
Well. Have watched my speech and you
can give me a verdict. What you reckon?
(05:44):
Yeah, but I've campaigned the length and breadth of our
country. You know, I was shadow education
secretary for 2 1/2 years. I campaigned in seats the whole
length and breadth of England and what I've also done since I
launched my campaign to be deputy leader is to be in every
nation and region because we've got really vital elections
coming up in Scotland and Wales next year.
And I've also always been confident and keen to make sure
(06:08):
that our members, our MPs, our counsellors have got things they
can put on their leaflets. And when I go to those seats and
I campaign, what I see in those leaflets is the new breakfast
club that's opening in the in the town, the new the new
nursery that opened in Septemberthat my department is delivering
and the expansion of free schoolmeals.
So good Labour policies are values into action.
I've got a record of delivery, but I'm asking members for the
(06:30):
mandate to go even further. Can you do that when you're
education secretary? I mean, it's not a part time
job, is it? No, but is anybody seriously
suggesting that Angela Rayner was a part timer?
She was running a big governmentdepartment.
John Prescott was the same 1 he was in government and Harriet
Harman too. But I suppose there's more
campaigning now, isn't there? I mean, you've got elections
coming up next year, as you say,that are going to be really,
(06:50):
really important, not least to the future of Keir Starmer, that
are going to need the deputy leader out there on the streets
a lot. And you've got a big job.
Absolutely. But I'm out there on the streets
anyway. I'm in, I'm out across the
country every week, you know, visiting schools, colleges,
campaigning with our candidates on the doors.
It's why if you, you know, look at lots of the MPs who endorse
me, and I did secure the biggestnumber of endorsements from MPs,
(07:10):
it was me, you know, two years ago knocking on doors in their
constituency or with them on a school visit.
I've got a strong track record on this.
I think Members recognise that and I want to do more.
So, so how do you now take the fight to reform?
I mean, there's been a big argument at conference since
Keir Starmer, you know, launchedhis attack on what a policy he
believes is racist around how you attack a policy that is
(07:33):
racist without saying the peoplebehind it and the people who
support it are also racist. So there are two things.
Firstly, we do need to to make adifference in people's lives in
terms of the cost of living pressures and the challenges
that they're seeing around public services.
That is part of how we will beatReform, people seeing and
feeling change in our communities and being better
off. But alongside that we have to
(07:54):
make the moral case for what we believe in and why we believe
it, why we're Labour and why ourvalues are the values of the
British people. And I don't think where people
are is the divisive, unpleasant rhetoric that Reform are
increasingly peddling. That's becoming ever more
extreme. You know, I think we have seen
would. Disagree with that?
Wouldn't they? I think it, I think it reflects
the frustration that people feelabout the pace of change.
(08:17):
And you know, we've had many, many years where in communities
like mine, people have seen bus services disappear, they can't
get to see an NHS dentist. When they ring the police,
nobody comes. That's what we've inherited as a
government. After 14 years, that's what we
will turn around and we have to deliver and show to people that
their communities are getting better, that their lives will
improve and they've got more money in their pocket.
(08:39):
And the action I've taken in government has done precisely
that. You know, the 30 hours of
government funded childcare we rolled out that puts seven and a
half 1000 lbs back into the pockets of families.
That makes a huge difference. But there is a moral case to
make as well about who we are asa country, what we believe in
and what we thought, what what we are for.
And I don't think we win by seeking to out reform, reform.
(09:00):
I mean, you talk about the moralcase.
Is there an intellectual case? Is there a red thread that runs
through the Labour project at the moment?
A lot of people are really struggling to see, you know
what, what is the the guiding belief that unites all of the
things that you are doing that makes them more than just a sort
of a shopping list of transactions.
So for me, it's about the opportunity that we give not
(09:22):
just to our young people, but toworking people right across the
country. So it's about the power of
government to change lives, to open up opportunities, but to
give people freedom to choose what they want to do in life, to
choose their calling and their cause and for our young people
to not be held back because of their circumstances and their
family background. The Labour Party has always been
been about how you break that link between background and
(09:44):
success. It's why tackling child poverty
is such a big priority for me. It will be my number one
priority as deputies leader because while we have a
situation where millions of children in our country grew up
in poverty, they It's not just aquestion of those families being
poorer. We are all poorer, we all
suffer. I.
Mean, do you think that's survives the current modern
(10:06):
political environment, which is very driven by social media that
is very rigged in terms of the algorithm and the mood of
politics, in which people aren'treally that interested in
statistics they don't necessarily believe or
understand? It's a lot to do with feel,
isn't it? It is.
We've got to adapt and we've gotto get our message across in a
much more effective way. I've heard that from members.
(10:27):
I agree we've got to tell that story, but it's also, it's not
just enough to tell, you've actually got to show it in
reality. And that's why the change that
people will see in their communities will be critical.
Look, I do see the polls. I mean, of course I see them.
I've all, you know, you're a politician, you look at the
polls, but polls represent how people feel at this moment in
time. They're not a prediction of the
future. They can't predict what's going
(10:47):
to come. It is within our power to turn
that around to secure that second term Labour government.
And why I want to be deputy leader is to be out there making
the case not, not just for what we're delivering now, but what
more we have to do and bring ourmembers and our movement
together. But in government, we don't do
that by throwing stones from theoutside.
But what makes you think that that will turn around, given you
(11:09):
already have a story to tell on certain on your own department
and another cabinet minister here saying, well, we've done
this, that and the other and it doesn't seem to be being felt by
the electorate. What What makes you think that
there will come a point when these incremental changes are
suddenly felt and everybody goes, oh, they are changing the
country? But people are impatient for
(11:30):
change. I'm impatient for that and I'm
I'm ambitious for what we can do.
We're a little more than a year into this government.
I mean, have we got everything right?
No, of course we haven't. I'd be the first to accept it.
But we have done some amazing, brilliant Labour things that our
members can be proud of. We've got to do more, but
there's a long, long road to rununtil that next general
election, and I do believe that we can turn it around.
(11:51):
And, and how do you accelerate the pace of change?
Well, you know, that's, that's rhetoric at the moment.
You can promise that. Well, I just the question is
when do people feel it? Well, I've just delivered some
of it in the conference hall with the announcement I've made
today that this Labour government will be introducing
new targeted maintenance grants for less well off students to
have the chance to go with the college.
We don't know how. Much we don't.
Know how much we'll be setting out all the detail in the
(12:12):
budget, We'll set out the detail, but this is going to be
a significant change that will make a really big difference to
young people in our country. I mean, even that is unpopular
with some parts of the party here, isn't it?
I mean it's been criticised as stupid by MPs like Alex Sobel.
Sorry, what? Your maintenance grants policy
because they say it's taking money away from universities.
No, we will raise money from theinternational students levy and
(12:35):
and invest in support for domestic students.
I I do believe that is the rightthing to do and we'll do what
we're doing. That because the Conservatives
pulled away maintenance grant support from less well off
students. That's having a really big
impact on students and on the cost of living and that is a
choice that I have made to prioritise investing in those
who need it the most. That is a labour choice.
How close are you to Keir Starmer?
(12:57):
I'm close to him, of course I am.
I'm in his cabinet. He's our Prime Minister.
All of us as party members, whether in the cabinet or out,
should want the Prime Minister and our government to succeed
and I that's what I've heard from our members.
Would you, would you be working very closely as a team or would
you, do you see yourself as sortof a step removed as deputy
leader? Yeah, I would be working closely
(13:17):
with our Prime Minister, but I'dalso be working closely with our
counsellors, with our mayors, with our movement.
I mean that's what I do at the moment.
That's my record. And I think if you look at the
support that I've secured, not just from MPs but also from many
of our big affiliated trade unions, that's because they
recognise the work that we've done together and they have put
confidence in me to be that linkbetween our the movement in the
(13:40):
country and our members and government.
And, and would you have the strength and the independence if
it came to it, to tell the PrimeMinister the hardest thing,
which might be it's not working,you're not up to it.
You know, if you needed to, I'm not saying you would ever get to
that point, but do you have the independence and the strength of
(14:01):
mind as a deputy leader with your own mandate, elected to
deliver the tough news to the leader if it comes to it?
Look, if you speak to any of my colleagues, those in cabinet and
outside the Cabinet, they'll know that I'm someone that does
say what I think and I will do that forcefully behind closed
doors. What you won't see me doing is
out there undermining our government, making it harder for
(14:22):
us to win that second term. But I make and win arguments and
I deliver for our members. That's what I've delivered at
conference. It's what I've delivered in the
last year or so as education secretary.
And, and this theme that the conference has delivered has
developed against reform, about sort of going against our, you
know, British nature, if you like.
(14:44):
Where does that go next? Because I mean, one of the
criticisms I think of this government, I've heard a lot
here is that you announce things.
You haven't been building the arguments and making the case
very well. So you announce digital ID, you
announce recognition of Palestine, but you haven't taken
the public and the party on a journey towards those places.
(15:05):
Is this going to be a sustained attack and campaign do you
think? Yes, I mean, we're in the fight
of our lives with reform, but it's not just about the Labour
Party. In fact, the Labour Party is
secondary in this. This is about our country and
our country's future and why we do have to build a Britain where
everyone can get on and where wereject the politics of division
peddled by Farage. Right, five quick ones I'll put
(15:27):
to Lucy as well. What's the most listened to song
on your? Playlist Bell and Sebastian,
Various Bell and Sebastian songs.
My favorite band. If you weren't a politician,
what would you? Be I'd be running a bookshop.
What's your guilty pleasure? Watching Netflix Tony.
Blair or Gordon Brown? Tony Blair.
Do you have a hobby and what is it?
(15:48):
I play hockey for a women's hockey team.
Bridget Phillipson, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. And that's the forecast.
Bye bye.
There is a moral case to make aswell about who we are as a
country, what we believe in, andI don't think we win by seeking
to out reform reform. The last thing we need at the
moment is internal squabbles. Divided parties don't win, and
we can't beat reform if we're arguing amongst ourselves.
Theme that that the conference has developed against reform,
about sort of going against our,you know, British nature, if you
(00:22):
like. Where does that go next?
Hello and welcome to the forecast from Labour Party
conference in Liverpool and the first of our deputy leadership
interviews. First up is the Education
Secretary, Bridget Phillips. And welcome.
Hello, write your own job description.
Campaigner in chief, a voice to get things done in government
(00:43):
and bringing together the membership and the movement to
do more brilliant Labour things.So so it's it's a more internal
focus job for you rather than public facing.
So I have the public facing rules, so I think I can combine
the two. But I also would be that link
between the membership and the movement and the party in
government. That's the way it's always been
done in the past where you look at people like Harriet Harman,
(01:05):
John Prescott, Angela Rayner, who were big figures in
government but also had to reachinto the membership and into our
trade union movement. And that's what I think I can
bring I. Mean, normally I would be going
through a load of policies and asking you what you think about
this, that and the other. If it was a leadership contest
and you weren't in government because you're in cabinets, I
assume you're not going to disagree with anything that is
(01:27):
government policy. Well, what I've done
consistently and what I'll always do is to make the case
what needs to happen to represent the views of our
members, our voters and our movement in government.
It's why, you know, I fought tooth and nail to expand free
school meals to half a million more children.
But that only happened because Ihad a seat at the cabinet table
and I could get things done. I wasn't throwing stones from
(01:49):
the outside. Do you feel that is the way to
get things done? Look, I think there's a risk
that if you're not in government, you you're simply
throwing stones, you're not contributing to that wider
direction. What I would bring is the voice
of members, the voice of the movement, but into the heart of
government, putting our values into action.
And what I've been setting out today in the speech I gave to
Labour Party conference is how we do that.
(02:10):
You know, for example, bringing them up maintenance grants,
targeted maintenance grants for less well off students.
Yes, I mean, but if if you're not able to voice the criticism
because you're in the cabinet, how would people know what
you're saying? Because it's about what you
deliver, not just simply what you talk about doing.
And I think members can look at my record of delivery, whether
(02:32):
that's on rolling out early years education and childcare,
the new free breakfast clubs, the further announcement I've
made this week to go even further, half a million more
children benefiting from free school meals.
And today, new targeted maintenance grants for students.
That's the difference you make when you've got a seat at the
cabinet table, when you're able to get things done.
And that would build on the amazing campaigning record of
(02:53):
people like Angela Rayner who did that incredibly effectively
from within government. So, I mean, you're widely
assumed to be one of the big voices calling for an end to the
two child benefit cap in the government, but we don't know
that, you know, would you like to tell me is that what you're
calling for inside? I've been very clear that
scrapping the two child limit ison the table.
(03:14):
I have been leading that work ofthe Child Poverty Task Force.
The evidence is clear. I'm clear about what needs to
happen. Two child limit is on the table,
but I haven't been waiting around for that.
And that's why, you know, 100,000 children next year will
be lifted out of poverty becauseof the action that I've taken as
Education Secretary. I think members can look at my
record, look at what I've delivered and take confidence in
(03:35):
that. But what I'd also say is that
the message I've heard loud and clear from all the people that
are with us here this week is that they want us to unite, to
take the fight to reform and to beat them.
The last thing we need at the moment is internal squabbles.
Divided parties don't win, and we can't beat reform if we're
arguing amongst ourselves. Right.
So, so you think all the leadership talk is, is
(03:56):
destructive at the moment? I mean, you know, if you were,
if you were deputy leader, you'dbe on the NEC in a couple of
months time. A proposal comes forward, Andy
Burnham wants to stand in a by election.
I think I know how Lucy Powell would vote on that candidate
selection. How would you do?
You. Well, I think Lucy Powell's a
(04:18):
big friend of Andy Burnham's andwould support him coming back
into Parliament. Look, I've worked.
Really, I don't know what you would think in that scenario.
Look, I've worked really closelywith Andy.
We've done lots together on skills, a big priority for him
and we've worked with him and with our regional mayors to to
deliver a lot more on skills. But I'm not going to get into
hypotheticals for as to events that you know will or won't
(04:39):
happen. And we did just have a general
election last year. So you know if.
He wants to be an MP. Would you like to see him back
in Parliament? That's a matter if that's up to
him, really. It's not for me to say.
I mean, he's. He's well, it would be if you
were a deputy leader because youget a vote on the NEC.
No. If no, I mean, we're talking
about a few hypotheticals way, way down the line.
Look, Andy's doing a great job in Manchester.
As, as I understand it, he's gotno intention of stepping away
(05:00):
from that position. No.
But it's interesting that you'renot, you're not prepared to say.
I think it'd be great, great to see him back in Parliament.
Well, I'm generally opposed to like hypotheticals about if
there were a by election. If this were to happen, you're
asking me to get a few steps along along a journey that
doesn't actually exist at the moment.
People tend to like hypotheticals they like.
Journalists love. Hypotheticals they.
Journalists love hypotheticals for reasons you will understand,
(05:22):
but I'm I'm not getting into that.
Right. So, so when you say taking the
fight to reform, what do you mean?
Because, you know, we, we, we, Ithink we're not used to seeing
you, you know, in the way that we're perhaps used to seeing
Angela Rayner as a sort of a barnstorming Street Fighter.
I mean, I think my speech is that what you are?
Well. Have watched my speech and you
can give me a verdict. What you reckon?
(05:44):
Yeah, but I've campaigned the length and breadth of our
country. You know, I was shadow education
secretary for 2 1/2 years. I campaigned in seats the whole
length and breadth of England and what I've also done since I
launched my campaign to be deputy leader is to be in every
nation and region because we've got really vital elections
coming up in Scotland and Wales next year.
And I've also always been confident and keen to make sure
(06:08):
that our members, our MPs, our counsellors have got things they
can put on their leaflets. And when I go to those seats and
I campaign, what I see in those leaflets is the new breakfast
club that's opening in the in the town, the new the new
nursery that opened in Septemberthat my department is delivering
and the expansion of free schoolmeals.
So good Labour policies are values into action.
I've got a record of delivery, but I'm asking members for the
(06:30):
mandate to go even further. Can you do that when you're
education secretary? I mean, it's not a part time
job, is it? No, but is anybody seriously
suggesting that Angela Rayner was a part timer?
She was running a big governmentdepartment.
John Prescott was the same 1 he was in government and Harriet
Harman too. But I suppose there's more
campaigning now, isn't there? I mean, you've got elections
coming up next year, as you say,that are going to be really,
(06:50):
really important, not least to the future of Keir Starmer, that
are going to need the deputy leader out there on the streets
a lot. And you've got a big job.
Absolutely. But I'm out there on the streets
anyway. I'm in, I'm out across the
country every week, you know, visiting schools, colleges,
campaigning with our candidates on the doors.
It's why if you, you know, look at lots of the MPs who endorse
me, and I did secure the biggestnumber of endorsements from MPs,
(07:10):
it was me, you know, two years ago knocking on doors in their
constituency or with them on a school visit.
I've got a strong track record on this.
I think Members recognise that and I want to do more.
So, so how do you now take the fight to reform?
I mean, there's been a big argument at conference since
Keir Starmer, you know, launchedhis attack on what a policy he
believes is racist around how you attack a policy that is
(07:33):
racist without saying the peoplebehind it and the people who
support it are also racist. So there are two things.
Firstly, we do need to to make adifference in people's lives in
terms of the cost of living pressures and the challenges
that they're seeing around public services.
That is part of how we will beatReform, people seeing and
feeling change in our communities and being better
off. But alongside that we have to
(07:54):
make the moral case for what we believe in and why we believe
it, why we're Labour and why ourvalues are the values of the
British people. And I don't think where people
are is the divisive, unpleasant rhetoric that Reform are
increasingly peddling. That's becoming ever more
extreme. You know, I think we have seen
would. Disagree with that?
Wouldn't they? I think it, I think it reflects
the frustration that people feelabout the pace of change.
(08:17):
And you know, we've had many, many years where in communities
like mine, people have seen bus services disappear, they can't
get to see an NHS dentist. When they ring the police,
nobody comes. That's what we've inherited as a
government. After 14 years, that's what we
will turn around and we have to deliver and show to people that
their communities are getting better, that their lives will
improve and they've got more money in their pocket.
(08:39):
And the action I've taken in government has done precisely
that. You know, the 30 hours of
government funded childcare we rolled out that puts seven and a
half 1000 lbs back into the pockets of families.
That makes a huge difference. But there is a moral case to
make as well about who we are asa country, what we believe in
and what we thought, what what we are for.
And I don't think we win by seeking to out reform, reform.
(09:00):
I mean, you talk about the moralcase.
Is there an intellectual case? Is there a red thread that runs
through the Labour project at the moment?
A lot of people are really struggling to see, you know
what, what is the the guiding belief that unites all of the
things that you are doing that makes them more than just a sort
of a shopping list of transactions.
So for me, it's about the opportunity that we give not
(09:22):
just to our young people, but toworking people right across the
country. So it's about the power of
government to change lives, to open up opportunities, but to
give people freedom to choose what they want to do in life, to
choose their calling and their cause and for our young people
to not be held back because of their circumstances and their
family background. The Labour Party has always been
been about how you break that link between background and
(09:44):
success. It's why tackling child poverty
is such a big priority for me. It will be my number one
priority as deputies leader because while we have a
situation where millions of children in our country grew up
in poverty, they It's not just aquestion of those families being
poorer. We are all poorer, we all
suffer. I.
Mean, do you think that's survives the current modern
(10:06):
political environment, which is very driven by social media that
is very rigged in terms of the algorithm and the mood of
politics, in which people aren'treally that interested in
statistics they don't necessarily believe or
understand? It's a lot to do with feel,
isn't it? It is.
We've got to adapt and we've gotto get our message across in a
much more effective way. I've heard that from members.
(10:27):
I agree we've got to tell that story, but it's also, it's not
just enough to tell, you've actually got to show it in
reality. And that's why the change that
people will see in their communities will be critical.
Look, I do see the polls. I mean, of course I see them.
I've all, you know, you're a politician, you look at the
polls, but polls represent how people feel at this moment in
time. They're not a prediction of the
future. They can't predict what's going
(10:47):
to come. It is within our power to turn
that around to secure that second term Labour government.
And why I want to be deputy leader is to be out there making
the case not, not just for what we're delivering now, but what
more we have to do and bring ourmembers and our movement
together. But in government, we don't do
that by throwing stones from theoutside.
But what makes you think that that will turn around, given you
(11:09):
already have a story to tell on certain on your own department
and another cabinet minister here saying, well, we've done
this, that and the other and it doesn't seem to be being felt by
the electorate. What What makes you think that
there will come a point when these incremental changes are
suddenly felt and everybody goes, oh, they are changing the
country? But people are impatient for
(11:30):
change. I'm impatient for that and I'm
I'm ambitious for what we can do.
We're a little more than a year into this government.
I mean, have we got everything right?
No, of course we haven't. I'd be the first to accept it.
But we have done some amazing, brilliant Labour things that our
members can be proud of. We've got to do more, but
there's a long, long road to rununtil that next general
election, and I do believe that we can turn it around.
(11:51):
And, and how do you accelerate the pace of change?
Well, you know, that's, that's rhetoric at the moment.
You can promise that. Well, I just the question is
when do people feel it? Well, I've just delivered some
of it in the conference hall with the announcement I've made
today that this Labour government will be introducing
new targeted maintenance grants for less well off students to
have the chance to go with the college.
We don't know how. Much we don't.
Know how much we'll be setting out all the detail in the
(12:12):
budget, We'll set out the detail, but this is going to be
a significant change that will make a really big difference to
young people in our country. I mean, even that is unpopular
with some parts of the party here, isn't it?
I mean it's been criticised as stupid by MPs like Alex Sobel.
Sorry, what? Your maintenance grants policy
because they say it's taking money away from universities.
No, we will raise money from theinternational students levy and
(12:35):
and invest in support for domestic students.
I I do believe that is the rightthing to do and we'll do what
we're doing. That because the Conservatives
pulled away maintenance grant support from less well off
students. That's having a really big
impact on students and on the cost of living and that is a
choice that I have made to prioritise investing in those
who need it the most. That is a labour choice.
How close are you to Keir Starmer?
(12:57):
I'm close to him, of course I am.
I'm in his cabinet. He's our Prime Minister.
All of us as party members, whether in the cabinet or out,
should want the Prime Minister and our government to succeed
and I that's what I've heard from our members.
Would you, would you be working very closely as a team or would
you, do you see yourself as sortof a step removed as deputy
leader? Yeah, I would be working closely
(13:17):
with our Prime Minister, but I'dalso be working closely with our
counsellors, with our mayors, with our movement.
I mean that's what I do at the moment.
That's my record. And I think if you look at the
support that I've secured, not just from MPs but also from many
of our big affiliated trade unions, that's because they
recognise the work that we've done together and they have put
confidence in me to be that linkbetween our the movement in the
(13:40):
country and our members and government.
And, and would you have the strength and the independence if
it came to it, to tell the PrimeMinister the hardest thing,
which might be it's not working,you're not up to it.
You know, if you needed to, I'm not saying you would ever get to
that point, but do you have the independence and the strength of
(14:01):
mind as a deputy leader with your own mandate, elected to
deliver the tough news to the leader if it comes to it?
Look, if you speak to any of my colleagues, those in cabinet and
outside the Cabinet, they'll know that I'm someone that does
say what I think and I will do that forcefully behind closed
doors. What you won't see me doing is
out there undermining our government, making it harder for
(14:22):
us to win that second term. But I make and win arguments and
I deliver for our members. That's what I've delivered at
conference. It's what I've delivered in the
last year or so as education secretary.
And, and this theme that the conference has delivered has
developed against reform, about sort of going against our, you
know, British nature, if you like.
(14:44):
Where does that go next? Because I mean, one of the
criticisms I think of this government, I've heard a lot
here is that you announce things.
You haven't been building the arguments and making the case
very well. So you announce digital ID, you
announce recognition of Palestine, but you haven't taken
the public and the party on a journey towards those places.
(15:05):
Is this going to be a sustained attack and campaign do you
think? Yes, I mean, we're in the fight
of our lives with reform, but it's not just about the Labour
Party. In fact, the Labour Party is
secondary in this. This is about our country and
our country's future and why we do have to build a Britain where
everyone can get on and where wereject the politics of division
peddled by Farage. Right, five quick ones I'll put
(15:27):
to Lucy as well. What's the most listened to song
on your? Playlist Bell and Sebastian,
Various Bell and Sebastian songs.
My favorite band. If you weren't a politician,
what would you? Be I'd be running a bookshop.
What's your guilty pleasure? Watching Netflix Tony.
Blair or Gordon Brown? Tony Blair.
Do you have a hobby and what is it?
(15:48):
I play hockey for a women's hockey team.
Bridget Phillipson, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. And that's the forecast.
Bye bye.
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