October 2, 2025 • 33 mins
Nadine Dorries was once a Tory loyalist and Boris Johnson’s closest ally — now she’s defected to Reform UK, the party leading the polls under Nigel Farage.
She claims Farage is the only leader who can deliver the change communities need, but are Reform’s headline promises really workable?
And how does Dorries reconcile joining a party whose leader launches blistering attacks on her old boss, Boris Johnson?
She joins Cathy Newman for her first sit down interview since defecting.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The thing I find about Nigel refreshing is that he will have
the robust conversation. With you so he's not your
average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint of milk
to use your. Words.
No, no he isn't. And I do find that refreshing
do. You think there will be more
defections from the Tories? Too.
Oh yeah, I know, I know. There will be.
No, there will. Be how many rough?
Bigger names than me. Let's talk about why reformers
(00:20):
introduced this policy on immigration, because Nigel
Farage says that he's dealing with what he calls the Boris
wave. I accept that 4.2 million people
was way, way too big a number, right?
So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take that control as.
No, it was because we have controlled of our borders that
we were able. To open the borders and let
(00:40):
everybody in. Hello and welcome to the
forecast. Nadine Dorries was once former
Prime Minister Boris Johnson's closest ally.
But now she's defected to ReformUK, the party leading the polls
under Nigel Farage. She insists Farage is the only
one to deliver change, but are his policies workable?
(01:01):
And how does she respond to her new leaders attacks on her
former boss? She joins me now for her first
sit down interview since defecting.
Nadine Doris Keir Starmer said this week that Nigel Farage was
a snake oil merchant who doesn'tlike Britain.
Are you getting any kind of buyer's remorse for defecting?
Absolutely not. In fact, it was the attacks from
(01:22):
the stage and the platform at the Labour conference, if
anything, that would make myselfand others more more convinced
about the fact that we've done the right thing and I.
Also joining a party with racistpolitics.
Oh, it's not racist, Cathy. The the party is not racist
anyway and I find it hugely insulting.
I've been in politics for 20 years in Westminster, 25 in
(01:46):
total. I find it huge insulting that
anybody would describe someone who's an intelligent person
who's been involved in politics as a racist or no.
No, they're not. To be clear, they're
specifically not describing Nigel Farage himself as racist.
And the. Politics are not but the but
the. Policy of deporting 10s of
thousands of people who've made their homes here for the simple
(02:08):
fact that they're not British. You can understand why Keir
Starmer might describe that as racist.
It's not racist to want to protect our borders, to want to
deport those people who are illegally here.
But that's not he's not just wanting to deport the people who
are illegally here, he's talkingabout scrapping indefinite right
to remain and so therefore people who have made their homes
(02:31):
here. I am very sure that as we move
toward the 3 1/2 years, towards the general election, there will
be clarity around the skills that are required that need to
remain in terms of legal migration now, legal migration
we will still need to have moving forward.
That and you need it for the NHSfor.
Example, we need to have a former nurse, I would say you
(02:53):
know who trained with a my my mypeers when I was nursing were
Filipinos, so you know it will Philippine nurses were as equal
as British. They'll be deported under this
policy because they would not beearning enough.
To say not reform are not going to introduce policies that would
leave our NHS and staffed. He's told you that.
(03:14):
That would leave no, I I think just plain common sense tells me
that. So this policy will be refined.
These policies that will leave care homes without without
assistance. But what what we that is?
Exactly what the current policy would do.
What we would do would be that those those jobs, those skills
would be filled by an individual.
That doesn't mean their entire family can come over with them.
(03:37):
It doesn't mean they will have aright to British pensions.
It doesn't mean they'd have a right to the British welfare
system of of course illegal migration, as in any other
country in the world is a personto fill a skills gap.
And I'm very sure that moving forward when there is more
clarity around reforms parties, that is exactly what reform
(03:57):
we'll be looking at. So.
You're not the threshold might have to come down the salary
threshold because you know, you're not going to get care
workers and and nurses in, you know, in the under the threshold
that's currently being talked about.
You're asking me about policy details.
I do not hold a job within Reform or a title.
Zia Youssef, who is Nigel Farage's right hand man, which
(04:18):
it almost makes me laugh when people level the accusation of
racism. Zia is Nigel Farage's right hand
man. He's now the head of policy.
Zia will be defining those policies.
Zia is an incredibly intelligentman.
Is he going to leave our care homes and our hospitals without
staff to run them? No, he is not.
But what he will do is make surethat those people who are here
(04:41):
are I, I believe that those people are here, are here to do
a job that doesn't give them endless entitlements to our
public services, British pensions, our welfare system.
It doesn't give their entire family a right to follow them
and that those people who are here illegally will be removed.
Before we move on to why reform is introducing this policy, you
(05:03):
said that Keir Starmer's remarkswere dangerous.
Very dangerous just. Explain why and if you really
feel threatened by those comments that made from the
conference back. Look, we've seen MPs murdered in
the past and there was almost anunderstanding that that rhetoric
and the dialogue that MPs use towards each other, one has to
(05:28):
be very careful. And I think what happened
yesterday at the Labour Party conference was an utter
disgrace. It was.
But you believe in free speech? You believe free.
Speech there is and Nigel Faragesaid himself this week, there
are when there are accounts being established, TikTok
accounts and other accounts being opened that are calling
(05:48):
for him to be for the end of hislife and calling for him to.
I mean, it's only weeks since there was a, a murder in the US,
the Charlie Kirk murder. One has to be cuddled, inciting
violence, which is what I think Keir Starmer did yesterday,
inciting hatred. That's not free speech, that's
dangerous. And that's.
What Lucy Connolly? Was jailed for and.
(06:10):
Reform has opposed that decision.
Always a level to that. There's always a limit to that.
Let's talk about why reformers introduced this policy on
immigration, because Nigel Farage says that he's dealing
with what he calls the Boris wave.
And I'll just quote what he said.
Millions of people being allowedinto Britain, most of whom don't
even work and are costing us a fortune.
(06:30):
And he says voters will never forgive your friend Boris
Johnson, the former Prime Minister for that is Nigel
Farage, right? So you know the interesting
thing I found about this, and I've yet to have this discussion
with Nigel. He's been particularly busy.
I've yet to have this discussionwith them.
It's how Rishi Sunak is getting off Scott free on this
discussion. It was.
It was under Boris Johnson's government.
(06:51):
Well, just let me explain. So during COVID, a lot of people
left the UK. People willingly went back home.
A lot of Eastern Europeans who were filling particular
vacancies and roles in the UK went back.
Kathy, you were reporting, and Iwas a minister at the time, when
COVID ended, when the hospitality sector was screaming
out because they couldn't open their doors, because they
(07:13):
couldn't function, when nursing homes were screaming out because
the the bulk of Eastern Europeans who were filling those
jobs had left. It was the Migration Advisory
Committee who advised the numberof people who were needed in the
UK to fill those vacancies. And that was, and by the way,
the Boris wave word is very mucha Dominic Cummings artefact.
(07:36):
So it was so. So the Migration Committee
advised the number of people whoneed to come over.
Now I know that at the time Boris Johnson was putting in
place legislation that people who come over didn't have the
right, you'll remember this, to bring their entire families over
with them. And I find it quite remarkable
that people talk about the Boriswave.
He was British, Sunak was Prime Minister for two years.
(07:57):
So why is nobody mentioning whatRishi Sunak did?
So it's a Boris and Rishi wave to be.
Accurate it was I, Boris and I will disagree on this.
He will. He will say that there was a
need for people to come over andhe put in place the legislation
to stop those families coming over.
But you think? It was a mistake to allow so
many people in, you think Boris Johnson. 4 million people, way
(08:18):
too many, way too much, and he doesn't.
Agree. He doesn't agree with you on
that. So look, I'm not going to
discuss my conversations with Boris Johnson with you, but 4
million people hoping too many people, I think it is, was way,
way too much because you, our NHS, cannot sustain that number.
Our NHS resources are being channelled towards those people,
those four extra million people.So are our schools, so are our
(08:40):
public services, so are our pensions.
We simply cannot, as the small island that we are, Kathy,
sustain that level of inward migration and continue to
provide the public services thatwe need to that people deserve
and require. You accept you didn't raise your
voice around the table and say there's a Boris wave coming and
it's wrong and I oppose. It no, because I was completely
(09:01):
unaware that the number of people I knew the Migration
Advisory Committee had advised that we needed to fill those
skill gaps. I knew that there was a
discussion taking place about filling those skill gaps but
stop preventing people's families from coming over.
I was not made aware of the numbers and nobody around the
cabinet table was made aware of the numbers.
Priti Patel knew the numbers, she knew what was happening.
(09:24):
She was the home secretary, she is responsible.
She was responsible for the HomeOffice at the time, the Prime
Minister overseas, all of our departments.
We are each responsible for our department which are, which is a
full time job. I didn't ask how many people do
we have coming. The questions I was asking were,
(09:46):
well, I need more money to get broadband rolled out to every
home in the UK, right, so that we can level up.
I need to to work on the midtermreview of the BBC licence fee.
They're the kind of discussions I was having because that was my
department. You accept that Boris Johnson
got it wrong on this? I mean reforms head of policies
you. I accept that 4.2 million people
was way, way too big a number. Right.
(10:08):
So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take back control as.
No Brexit. It was because we have
controlled of our borders that we were able.
To open the borders and let everybody in.
No, Kathy, that's quite a twist on what happened.
What Boris Johnson did was, and I agree with the Migration
Advisory Committee that we need and agree with the hospitality
(10:29):
sector and the care home sector and every other sector that was
screaming out for more people tocome in.
He put in place the process to prevent those people from being
in their families over. He would also be entitled to our
pensions and on our NHS and our schools and our public services.
It was Rishi Sunak that stopped that happening, right?
Zia Youssef, reforms head of policy, who you've extolled as a
(10:51):
very clever man, described BorisJohnson as one of the worst
prime ministers in history. Have you had a chance to set him
right? Look, I'm political knockabout
and rhetoric between opposition parties is as old as the Roman
Empire. So of course he's going to say
that and I wish he wouldn't. I actually don't like playing
(11:12):
the man. I'd rather play the ball and I
but you know, I'm not Zia. Zia will do things the way he
wants to. I think.
I sometimes just think that maybe we should just take the
personal out of it. And, you know, that's why I was
so dismayed with what I heard Keir Starmer saying yesterday
and what I heard David Lammy andthe 11 cabinet, Labour cabinet
(11:35):
ministers. And by the way, so normally
after a conference, we, any party, even those who are
struggling the worst, see a bounce in their poll rating,
even if it's only minimal, we'llsee some kind of bounce.
I don't think we're going to seethat with Labour.
Well, let's see. It's it's too early to say,
perhaps, but staying on Boris Johnson, are you trying to
persuade him to defect from Conservatives to reform?
(11:56):
No. Gosh, no.
Lost cause. No, no.
No, no. No, no, he's a former
Conservative Prime Minister. You're former.
Conservative cabinet minister, you've defected.
That's different. He's a former Conservative Prime
Minister. He is not going to defect to
another political party, do you think?
There will be more defections from the Tories to Oh yeah, I
know. I know there will be.
No, there will be. How many roughly bigger names
(12:18):
than me? Roughly how?
Many are we talking I. Well, Nigel doesn't want many.
That's the that's the issue. I know there are probably
political names who are wanting to come to reform who he doesn't
want. So he's turned people.
Away I I. Would imagine he has like but
you know that. There are people, a number of
people, high profile Tories who are ready to jump ship well.
(12:40):
Nigel said this himself and he said himself, he doesn't want
that many, you know, reform isn't going to be just a, a, an,
an for the those on the sinking ship to the life raft for those
to jump onto. That's not what it is.
And it also isn't going to just become a new Conservative Party
because the Conservative Party, and it pains me to say this, the
Conservative Party over the timeit's been in government has
(13:04):
failed in many levels. The Labour Party has failed.
I don't think there's been a radical visionary government
since the time of Margaret Thatcher.
I think Boris Johnson would havebeen that radical visionary
Prime Minister, but he had Putinand COVID to deal with and, and
some very left-leaning typical MPs who wanted to see him
removed because of Brexit. And I think that what we need in
(13:27):
reform is that radical vision about doing things differently
in Westminster and in Whitehall.And we're not going to get that
if all that reform do is bring over a pile of ex ministers you
think within. Days we're going to see some
more high profile I I. Haven't Kathy, I have no idea.
I can't. I don't have a crystal ball.
I can't answer that question, but I do.
I do believe there will be high profile defections.
(13:51):
I'm very sure that will happen for two reasons.
One is there will be people likeme who have given their life to
politics and have a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience
that they think they want to offer and will want to do so and
see how irrelevant the Conservative Party is.
(14:13):
There is no hope for the Conservative Party.
It is not going to turn its fortunes around.
It is not even going to be in opposition after the next
general election. And there are some good MPs in
the Conservative Party who will think, well, I've still got a
lot to give and, and I'm sure will go to Reform and I'm, if I
were then I would have those, those conversations with Nigel
(14:35):
Farage. I'm not sure Nigel will take
everybody. I'm not sure he wants many, but
I think there will be some he would consider.
Boris Johnson says he wouldn't defect to reform because of its
extremely dangerous policy on Russia.
I mean, Nigel Farage has claimedthat NATO provoked Putin's
aggression. The former party leader in Wales
has admitted taking bribes to make statements in favour of
(14:58):
Russia while a member of the European Parliament.
I mean, are you worried about that?
Did you do your due diligence? I did there are there are
policies that I I'm not going toagree on everything with Nigel
Fraud. I didn't agree on everything
with Boris. We'll talk about a.
Few. A few more of them in a minute,
but most. Agreements were in private and
behind the scenes I but there are things I do agree with Nigel
(15:19):
on. I do agree with him on the
economy and you know the it's interesting that Labour actually
adopted one of his policies yesterday which was lifting the
two child benefit gap. The difference being that Nigel
wants to lift the two child benefit cap, the two working
couples for working families andwhat Starmer will probably do is
lift it for everybody, which means people on benefits.
(15:42):
He'll actually increase the welfare bill which is owned.
Chief Secretary of Treasury saidit's unsustainable in the longer
term. So I agree with him on his
attitude to public says and we had a big discussion about this.
Did you talk? About Russia, though, so we.
Talked about Ukraine. And so his support for Ukraine,
his his plans for the economy, law and order and migration were
(16:06):
for me the central themes of what Nigel and I talked about.
But we agreed on he's Johnny come.
Lately on Ukraine, isn't he? I mean, he's taken, he's made,
he's made. Very definite and very clear
statements about Ukraine over a long period of time, yeah, but
he. Took money from the Kremlin
doing his appearances on Russia Today, which is this, you know,
state channel that. Kathy And that was?
(16:28):
After Russia invaded relevant. To nothing that was relevant to
nothing. So it was after Russia?
Invaded there were a number of. MPs, I think, who appeared on
Russia Today, but you didn't. I mean, you wouldn't do that,
would you? No, but but Kathy, I don't like
doing media. I do 1-2 months under pressure.
I only do it for you 'cause I think you're a great
broadcaster. But I'm very limited about what?
(16:50):
And so a lot of MPs are very limited about the media, but
sitting. Down with Russia Today, which is
funded by the Kremlin. That was a mistake by your
leader, wasn't it? Are they to say?
That so you're not. Concerned.
I think it's about statements onRussia.
Oh, you're talking. History.
You're talking about history, and I'm just not gonna go down
there. It's not that historic.
Though isn't it February 2022 only?
Thing that is important is does Nigel Farage support Zelensky
(17:14):
and Ukraine's right to protect its borders and to have its
territory? But, and he does.
And that's for me. And the question I asked Nigel
was it is absolutely vital to methat you have unstinting support
for Zelensky in Ukraine. You know, and he and he.
And he pledged that to you? Absolutely.
I was Secretary of State when Putin invaded.
(17:37):
I had my conversations with my opposite number in Ukraine when
he was in a bunker and Kiev was under fire and he had stacked
around him Ukraine's most precious artwork, protecting it
in a bunker, in a cave. You know, I was invested in
Ukraine. I actually LED in the very first
days across the world, Australia, Japan, New Zealand,
(18:00):
countries across the globe in, in bringing together an accord
where we decided that Russian athletes would not be able to
take part in the Olympic, the Winter Olympics, where they
would not be able to appear in. Russian artists will not be able
to appear in various countries. We LED that.
We were the very first people todo that.
I was invested in Ukraine. It was important to me that
(18:22):
Nigel Farage is also invested. Yeah.
And while you were? Doing all of that and feel very
passionately about it. You're now leader was putting
out on social media February 2022 that the Russian invasion
of Ukraine was a consequence of EU and NATO expansion.
Well, he said. That in 2022, what is important
to me today, and lots of people change their minds on lots of
issues, particularly in politics, what is important to
(18:44):
me today is that Nigel Farage has full support behind Zelensky
and Ukraine and he does. And I'm looking forward, Kathy
not back. I'm looking forward and I will
and I will hold Nigel's feet to the fire on that if I have to.
He will not wave on Ukraine, I'mvery sure of that.
We're a few days out from the Conservative Party conference.
You have described the party as dead.
(19:07):
Just unpack that a bit for. Us well, it's irrelevant
nobody's listening, nobody's interested you know it's
nobody's book well, some people have but you know, very few
organisations have even bought stands at their conference you
know when there are stories online about the Conservative
Party, no one's reading them. When, you know, people switch
off now in this broadcast, in this podcast, no one's
(19:29):
interested in the Conservative Party and and he has to go
further down, you know, so we know that politics is cyclical.
And I'm very sure that maybe, I don't know, 15 years time from
now, the Conservative Party may become fit again to be to be a
force in Westminster. It's facing an.
Existential threat, though, if it's dying, it is.
(19:50):
It is and and it probably will, but that doesn't mean there will
be people who believe in conservativism who won't come
and reform in the future so effectively.
Reform in the Tories will merge,won't they?
So I've said this all along that, you know, if Nigel was
short of the numbers to form an overall majority, it's going to
be a threat to the lower majority, though, isn't it?
(20:12):
Who can say? You know, again, we don't have
crystal balls, do we? You know, Keir Starmer got a
majority. Despite the fact that it was,
you know, wide and loveless and shallow.
He still managed to get one. And yeah, I mean, we seem to be
in the territory. Boris Johnson had an agency.
We seem to be in the territory of large majorities but that
there may need to be an accommodation of some form in
(20:36):
the future, whether that will look like in certain key seats,
reformist on candidates or therewill be some kind of
arrangement. If, if that doesn't happen and
reform are slightly short, I mean reform, we're not going to
get into bed with the Liberal Democrats, but in the Labour.
Would be open to some kind of tie up do you think?
Would you? Well, Cammy.
Bejnak even be there right? So you.
(20:56):
Think she She won't necessarily be, I don't think.
So I don't think I'll make this prediction with you.
I don't think that after next may either Camille Bejanak or
Keir Starmer will be leaders of the parties.
And in fact, I I put serious money on that.
They won't be. Keir Starmer will struggle to
last until next May. We know what happened at his
conference. You know his speech well, he
(21:18):
shored. Up his support thanks to Andy
Burnham Kathy he. What the the point?
It was all optics and it was allwindow dressing.
It was all about muting. Andy Burnham keeping the show on
the road for the cameras. When Labour go back to
Westminster in two weeks it willfall apart.
We know that though you and I know from what we know behind
(21:40):
the scenes, the warfare is real.Lucy Powell will become the
deputy leader of the party. It's Bridget Phillipson, won't
come anywhere near Andy Burnham will continue.
It was just the wrong time at the conference, the wrong
objects put back in. His box, sorry.
Now come back to we know. I know Andy Burnham for a very
long time. Andy Burnham is back in his box
(22:00):
for now, probably for the next two weeks.
Andy Burnham hasn't hasn't gone away.
Kebby Bade. Not not least because.
Lucy Powell is Andy Burnham's right.
You know, woman, he's got his. He's got his person in
Westminster, Kelly Badenoch. Is poised to withdraw from the
European Convention on human rights and the refugee
convention does that not give you pause that you know she's
now coming up with the policies that you wanted to see she.
(22:22):
Can't, because she may. That may be a policy she'll
announce again. Window dressing.
And This is why I am So, you know, aren't so many of us so
heartily sick of politicians andstand and make claims but don't
do anything about it? Well, I mean she.
Can't. Now she's in opposition, and she
won't be. Able to, and she'll never be
able to because their MPs will never back her and she'd never
(22:44):
be able to get that through. And that's because 2/3 of the
MPs in the Conservative Party are to the left of the
Conservative Party. They will never support her in
leaving the ECHR or the convention.
It just won't happen. You've been.
Quite open about the fact that you don't agree with everything
your new leader sets out, but there are a couple of areas that
(23:05):
seems. No, I, I said we're not going to
agree on everything. So I can't think of anything.
He's set out at the moment and they're sure you're going to
remind me. Well, I'm gonna have an.
Idea about the online safety bill, which is yes, you
introduced, you know, you were very proud of it we have had.
Discussions about that, Nigel? Farage says it's dystopian.
He's promised to repeal it. I mean, you can try and talk him
around on that, yeah. Absolutely.
And I've already begun. So what I would like to see is
(23:27):
the word children and young people inserted into every
clause in the Online Safety Bill.
The problem, the thing that happened with the Online Safety
Bill, Kathy. And remember I, I took it out
the weeds where it was nothing and put it before Westminster in
a year. The problem was that every MP
wanted their say on that bill. It was treated like a Christmas
(23:48):
tree and every MP wanted to hanga bauble on it.
And it became just this bizarre bill which is really unworkable
and which the police don't have any ability to use except when
they want to and what they want to use.
And it's convenient. And I think one I would try and
persuade Nigel Farage and he said these words himself and I
(24:09):
was interested to hear him say and he said, I think he said,
you know, I'll say this, actually there are limits to
free speech. That was quite important because
he felt those limits to free speech when people were setting
up online social media accounts calling for his death.
So has. Nigel Farage committed to you
that instead of repealing that bill, he hasn't committed.
(24:30):
Anything but we do have we do I have spoken to him about this.
He's. Probably to listen I have.
He does listen. This is the thing I have been,
I'm absolutely find refreshing and encouraging is that Nigel
will really engage in the conversation.
Whereas, you know, in the past, you know, I had in the past,
(24:53):
I've had prime ministers who will speak to you through their
spags and their aids when it's an uncomfortable subject that
they don't want to discuss. And the thing I find about Nigel
refreshing is that he will have the conversation, robust
conversation with you. So he's not.
Your average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint
of milk? To use your words, no.
He isn't, and I do find that refreshing.
(25:13):
I mean, he went. To Dulwich College.
He's quite he. Did he?
Did yeah, but you know, I think was I might even have said this
to you. I've said this before in an
interview. I'm sure is there is posh and
posh, there are posh people who can talk to anybody.
They still relate to people. They're normal.
And there are posh people who just don't.
And Nigel Farage is somebody whonot only does he have his finger
(25:35):
on the pulse, but he's, he can relate to anyone.
And, and I think you see that how people have responded to him
across the board. So he's, he's, he's up for
discussion. He's always up for debate.
And you know, I, I have to say that in my first days of joining
for him, I've challenged him andI thought, what am I doing?
And but he's been like, like up for it, robust and up for it.
(25:59):
So it's a conversation. It's a conversation I probably
won't win. But what I would say is that
when I ask people, don't you want to protect children,
particularly young girls and young women where we've seen the
the number of those suffering from eating disorders rise
exponentially, the number of young people who took their own
life don't. We were in the 16 to 24 age
(26:20):
grant, but I didn't want to do something about that because I
was the health minister who got the coroner's prevention of
future death reports. I know why these young people
are taking their own lives and you said all.
This tonight when you. Talk to people about that.
They find it. It's difficult to come back at
you with an answer, so I will continue always.
(26:40):
You've said that. To Nigel Farage, have you?
Yeah, and one. Of the, one of the purposes of
me being in reform actually, is to, to have those discussions.
And I will talk about children and young people and I will do
it always. And I may not get my own way,
but at least I'll have my voice heard.
And that's important because youdon't always get your voice
heard. A couple of other.
Policy areas that you may or maynot agree or disagree on with
(27:01):
your new leader. You tried to privatise Channel
4, I did When? You're in government.
Do you expect a reform government to press ahead with
that? Oh well, that's one.
Conversation we haven't had. I also wanted to change the way
the BBC is funded from the licence fee.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this but, and I don't know what
the figure is today. I know the figure was 78% of
(27:24):
everybody convicted for non payment of BB licence fee is a
woman and it's because women carry the many cases, women
carry the responsibility for thehome and for the family and for
the bills. And I wanted to change the way
the BBC was funded. Now, I haven't had either of
those conversations with Nigel Farage and and I don't get the
(27:45):
impression that's that's top of his agenda.
But I will also, along with protecting children and young
people, have the conversations with him about the BBC and he
knows what he's getting with me.He knew what I he, he, he didn't
take me into reform, not knowingthey're the things, the causes
that I've championed. You're.
A former nurse, have you taken issue with him the fact that he
(28:06):
wasn't able to condemn Donald Trump's remarks linking
paracetamol to autism pregnant mums?
So I looked, so I hadn't spoken to him about that and I looked
at what he said and what he saidwas that that we would be led by
the science in the UK and that different countries have hit, I
think. Well, actually, no.
He he said he did. Lean into it with something
(28:28):
else. He he actually.
Said he didn't. He didn't necessarily see that
he would that science was fluid and that he didn't necessarily
believe the science experts. He he didn't want to trust the
science expert. So here's the thing.
About being a Prime Minister is you can't take decisions about
health policy, your chief scientific officer and your
chief. I mean, you can as long as you
(28:50):
are prepared to take a civil lawsuit.
And you know, I mean, that's this is the one thing that
amazes me about COVID, when people talk about COVID
lockdowns and some of the policies we introduced in COVID.
If Boris Johnson had ignored theadvice of the Chief scientific
Officer, the Chief Medical Officer, SAGE and other bodies
that were identified as those who were informing on that
(29:14):
particular policy, he would probably be in prison now as a
result of a civil lawsuit or certainly in that process.
Now, no Prime Minister is ever going to be able to say to
override the chief scientific officer and the chief medical
officer when it comes to health policy, unless of course.
Is extremely. Wealthy and settled.
(29:34):
Well, that's, you know, again hewould change.
As Prime Minister, if he was Prime Minister, he wouldn't have
any. Option not to as a health.
Minister during the pandemic, asyou've set out, are you content
for Nigel Farage to be advised by Asim Malhotra, who claimed at
the Reform Party conference thatCOVID vaccines were a
significant factor in the royal family's cancer diagnosis?
That was. Just insane.
(29:54):
That was literally insane and I'm not sure if that person or
will ever be invited to reform conference again.
I'd be very surprised if he was.Or will you make those?
Representations to Nigel Far when I speak.
To again, that's we spoke about so there is so much discussed.
That's not something I've spokento him about, but but you would.
(30:15):
You would intend to, no. That's pretty.
Pretty reform is I think it was the first major conference it's
ever had. It's learning as it goes.
So it was grossly. Irresponsible wasn't it, to
allow someone like that to be platform?
Well, I don't believe anybody knew that he was going to say
that. Well, he had.
Reform. I mean he, he.
Nobody knew he was going to say that, but he was.
He was opposed. To the COVID vaccines, some
(30:37):
incendiary remarks about those he.
Used the reform platform in order to garner both attention
and immediate interest in his own platform.
Great. And to be clear, what he said
wasn't true. And what Donald Trump has said
about the link between paracetamol and autism, also
untrue, unproven. You just.
(30:57):
Have to the only thing you can do as a minister and when Nigel
Farage is Prime Minister, which he will be very soon, when Nigel
Farage is Prime Minister, when it comes to health policy on
issues such as paracetamol and autism or anything else, he will
have to be guided and take the advice of the chief medical
officer and the chief scientificofficer.
(31:19):
Unless of course, he wants to gooutside that and leave himself
vulnerable for civil lawsuits, obviously.
It's up to the British people whether he becomes Prime
Minister, but just finally, willhe be standing as a Reform MP at
the next election? Have you been offered a peerage
as the price of you defecting? I haven't had those
conversations with Nigel Farage.Interestingly.
(31:40):
If I was a man I probably would have nailed him on a cabinet
position and on a safe seat and on various other things.
But you didn't extract. Anything out of that that just.
Didn't even cross my mind and the period.
Hasn't been mentioned for me. I just literally we have not had
those discussions. For me, the for me, the
important thing was I'm, I'm still involved in politics a
(32:04):
lot. And for me, the important thing
was to remove myself from the Conservative Party.
It's toxic and I've been there since I left in 2022.
It's a toxic, sinking organization.
I wanted to remove myself from it.
And initially I was just going to join Reform.
(32:24):
And it was a third party who said, no, don't just, you do not
just join Reform. You have to defector reform.
Interesting. I have no way to defect from
because I wasn't in a position. But who said that?
The third party say. That a fellow.
A fellow Conservative. I'm not going to say that.
Not Boris Johnson. So.
What? Definitely not Boris Johnson.
(32:45):
He would have. Persuaded you to stay.
Just a final question. Nigel Farage had to eat, I
believe. Camel udder, you ostrich anus on
on a celebrity. Is that well?
Actually, long ago. It's 2012.
You've gone. Eating ostrich anus Did I eat an
ostrich? In this did I I believe.
You did. I just wondered whether you
compared notes with him on disgusting things you had to
eat. No.
(33:06):
No, I mean, honestly, it's somewhere in my distant memory
is a long time ago. Nadine Dorris.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Kathy.
That's it. For the forecast, thank you very
much for watching. Goodbye.
The thing I find about Nigel refreshing is that he will have
the robust conversation. With you so he's not your
average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint of milk
to use your. Words.
No, no he isn't. And I do find that refreshing
do. You think there will be more
defections from the Tories? Too.
Oh yeah, I know, I know. There will be.
No, there will. Be how many rough?
Bigger names than me. Let's talk about why reformers
(00:20):
introduced this policy on immigration, because Nigel
Farage says that he's dealing with what he calls the Boris
wave. I accept that 4.2 million people
was way, way too big a number, right?
So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take that control as.
No, it was because we have controlled of our borders that
we were able. To open the borders and let
(00:40):
everybody in. Hello and welcome to the
forecast. Nadine Dorries was once former
Prime Minister Boris Johnson's closest ally.
But now she's defected to ReformUK, the party leading the polls
under Nigel Farage. She insists Farage is the only
one to deliver change, but are his policies workable?
(01:01):
And how does she respond to her new leaders attacks on her
former boss? She joins me now for her first
sit down interview since defecting.
Nadine Doris Keir Starmer said this week that Nigel Farage was
a snake oil merchant who doesn'tlike Britain.
Are you getting any kind of buyer's remorse for defecting?
Absolutely not. In fact, it was the attacks from
(01:22):
the stage and the platform at the Labour conference, if
anything, that would make myselfand others more more convinced
about the fact that we've done the right thing and I.
Also joining a party with racistpolitics.
Oh, it's not racist, Cathy. The the party is not racist
anyway and I find it hugely insulting.
I've been in politics for 20 years in Westminster, 25 in
(01:46):
total. I find it huge insulting that
anybody would describe someone who's an intelligent person
who's been involved in politics as a racist or no.
No, they're not. To be clear, they're
specifically not describing Nigel Farage himself as racist.
And the. Politics are not but the but
the. Policy of deporting 10s of
thousands of people who've made their homes here for the simple
(02:08):
fact that they're not British. You can understand why Keir
Starmer might describe that as racist.
It's not racist to want to protect our borders, to want to
deport those people who are illegally here.
But that's not he's not just wanting to deport the people who
are illegally here, he's talkingabout scrapping indefinite right
to remain and so therefore people who have made their homes
(02:31):
here. I am very sure that as we move
toward the 3 1/2 years, towards the general election, there will
be clarity around the skills that are required that need to
remain in terms of legal migration now, legal migration
we will still need to have moving forward.
That and you need it for the NHSfor.
Example, we need to have a former nurse, I would say you
(02:53):
know who trained with a my my mypeers when I was nursing were
Filipinos, so you know it will Philippine nurses were as equal
as British. They'll be deported under this
policy because they would not beearning enough.
To say not reform are not going to introduce policies that would
leave our NHS and staffed. He's told you that.
(03:14):
That would leave no, I I think just plain common sense tells me
that. So this policy will be refined.
These policies that will leave care homes without without
assistance. But what what we that is?
Exactly what the current policy would do.
What we would do would be that those those jobs, those skills
would be filled by an individual.
That doesn't mean their entire family can come over with them.
(03:37):
It doesn't mean they will have aright to British pensions.
It doesn't mean they'd have a right to the British welfare
system of of course illegal migration, as in any other
country in the world is a personto fill a skills gap.
And I'm very sure that moving forward when there is more
clarity around reforms parties, that is exactly what reform
(03:57):
we'll be looking at. So.
You're not the threshold might have to come down the salary
threshold because you know, you're not going to get care
workers and and nurses in, you know, in the under the threshold
that's currently being talked about.
You're asking me about policy details.
I do not hold a job within Reform or a title.
Zia Youssef, who is Nigel Farage's right hand man, which
(04:18):
it almost makes me laugh when people level the accusation of
racism. Zia is Nigel Farage's right hand
man. He's now the head of policy.
Zia will be defining those policies.
Zia is an incredibly intelligentman.
Is he going to leave our care homes and our hospitals without
staff to run them? No, he is not.
But what he will do is make surethat those people who are here
(04:41):
are I, I believe that those people are here, are here to do
a job that doesn't give them endless entitlements to our
public services, British pensions, our welfare system.
It doesn't give their entire family a right to follow them
and that those people who are here illegally will be removed.
Before we move on to why reform is introducing this policy, you
(05:03):
said that Keir Starmer's remarkswere dangerous.
Very dangerous just. Explain why and if you really
feel threatened by those comments that made from the
conference back. Look, we've seen MPs murdered in
the past and there was almost anunderstanding that that rhetoric
and the dialogue that MPs use towards each other, one has to
(05:28):
be very careful. And I think what happened
yesterday at the Labour Party conference was an utter
disgrace. It was.
But you believe in free speech? You believe free.
Speech there is and Nigel Faragesaid himself this week, there
are when there are accounts being established, TikTok
accounts and other accounts being opened that are calling
(05:48):
for him to be for the end of hislife and calling for him to.
I mean, it's only weeks since there was a, a murder in the US,
the Charlie Kirk murder. One has to be cuddled, inciting
violence, which is what I think Keir Starmer did yesterday,
inciting hatred. That's not free speech, that's
dangerous. And that's.
What Lucy Connolly? Was jailed for and.
(06:10):
Reform has opposed that decision.
Always a level to that. There's always a limit to that.
Let's talk about why reformers introduced this policy on
immigration, because Nigel Farage says that he's dealing
with what he calls the Boris wave.
And I'll just quote what he said.
Millions of people being allowedinto Britain, most of whom don't
even work and are costing us a fortune.
(06:30):
And he says voters will never forgive your friend Boris
Johnson, the former Prime Minister for that is Nigel
Farage, right? So you know the interesting
thing I found about this, and I've yet to have this discussion
with Nigel. He's been particularly busy.
I've yet to have this discussionwith them.
It's how Rishi Sunak is getting off Scott free on this
discussion. It was.
It was under Boris Johnson's government.
(06:51):
Well, just let me explain. So during COVID, a lot of people
left the UK. People willingly went back home.
A lot of Eastern Europeans who were filling particular
vacancies and roles in the UK went back.
Kathy, you were reporting, and Iwas a minister at the time, when
COVID ended, when the hospitality sector was screaming
out because they couldn't open their doors, because they
(07:13):
couldn't function, when nursing homes were screaming out because
the the bulk of Eastern Europeans who were filling those
jobs had left. It was the Migration Advisory
Committee who advised the numberof people who were needed in the
UK to fill those vacancies. And that was, and by the way,
the Boris wave word is very mucha Dominic Cummings artefact.
(07:36):
So it was so. So the Migration Committee
advised the number of people whoneed to come over.
Now I know that at the time Boris Johnson was putting in
place legislation that people who come over didn't have the
right, you'll remember this, to bring their entire families over
with them. And I find it quite remarkable
that people talk about the Boriswave.
He was British, Sunak was Prime Minister for two years.
(07:57):
So why is nobody mentioning whatRishi Sunak did?
So it's a Boris and Rishi wave to be.
Accurate it was I, Boris and I will disagree on this.
He will. He will say that there was a
need for people to come over andhe put in place the legislation
to stop those families coming over.
But you think? It was a mistake to allow so
many people in, you think Boris Johnson. 4 million people, way
(08:18):
too many, way too much, and he doesn't.
Agree. He doesn't agree with you on
that. So look, I'm not going to
discuss my conversations with Boris Johnson with you, but 4
million people hoping too many people, I think it is, was way,
way too much because you, our NHS, cannot sustain that number.
Our NHS resources are being channelled towards those people,
those four extra million people.So are our schools, so are our
(08:40):
public services, so are our pensions.
We simply cannot, as the small island that we are, Kathy,
sustain that level of inward migration and continue to
provide the public services thatwe need to that people deserve
and require. You accept you didn't raise your
voice around the table and say there's a Boris wave coming and
it's wrong and I oppose. It no, because I was completely
(09:01):
unaware that the number of people I knew the Migration
Advisory Committee had advised that we needed to fill those
skill gaps. I knew that there was a
discussion taking place about filling those skill gaps but
stop preventing people's families from coming over.
I was not made aware of the numbers and nobody around the
cabinet table was made aware of the numbers.
Priti Patel knew the numbers, she knew what was happening.
(09:24):
She was the home secretary, she is responsible.
She was responsible for the HomeOffice at the time, the Prime
Minister overseas, all of our departments.
We are each responsible for our department which are, which is a
full time job. I didn't ask how many people do
we have coming. The questions I was asking were,
(09:46):
well, I need more money to get broadband rolled out to every
home in the UK, right, so that we can level up.
I need to to work on the midtermreview of the BBC licence fee.
They're the kind of discussions I was having because that was my
department. You accept that Boris Johnson
got it wrong on this? I mean reforms head of policies
you. I accept that 4.2 million people
was way, way too big a number. Right.
(10:08):
So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take back control as.
No Brexit. It was because we have
controlled of our borders that we were able.
To open the borders and let everybody in.
No, Kathy, that's quite a twist on what happened.
What Boris Johnson did was, and I agree with the Migration
Advisory Committee that we need and agree with the hospitality
(10:29):
sector and the care home sector and every other sector that was
screaming out for more people tocome in.
He put in place the process to prevent those people from being
in their families over. He would also be entitled to our
pensions and on our NHS and our schools and our public services.
It was Rishi Sunak that stopped that happening, right?
Zia Youssef, reforms head of policy, who you've extolled as a
(10:51):
very clever man, described BorisJohnson as one of the worst
prime ministers in history. Have you had a chance to set him
right? Look, I'm political knockabout
and rhetoric between opposition parties is as old as the Roman
Empire. So of course he's going to say
that and I wish he wouldn't. I actually don't like playing
(11:12):
the man. I'd rather play the ball and I
but you know, I'm not Zia. Zia will do things the way he
wants to. I think.
I sometimes just think that maybe we should just take the
personal out of it. And, you know, that's why I was
so dismayed with what I heard Keir Starmer saying yesterday
and what I heard David Lammy andthe 11 cabinet, Labour cabinet
(11:35):
ministers. And by the way, so normally
after a conference, we, any party, even those who are
struggling the worst, see a bounce in their poll rating,
even if it's only minimal, we'llsee some kind of bounce.
I don't think we're going to seethat with Labour.
Well, let's see. It's it's too early to say,
perhaps, but staying on Boris Johnson, are you trying to
persuade him to defect from Conservatives to reform?
(11:56):
No. Gosh, no.
Lost cause. No, no.
No, no. No, no, he's a former
Conservative Prime Minister. You're former.
Conservative cabinet minister, you've defected.
That's different. He's a former Conservative Prime
Minister. He is not going to defect to
another political party, do you think?
There will be more defections from the Tories to Oh yeah, I
know. I know there will be.
No, there will be. How many roughly bigger names
(12:18):
than me? Roughly how?
Many are we talking I. Well, Nigel doesn't want many.
That's the that's the issue. I know there are probably
political names who are wanting to come to reform who he doesn't
want. So he's turned people.
Away I I. Would imagine he has like but
you know that. There are people, a number of
people, high profile Tories who are ready to jump ship well.
(12:40):
Nigel said this himself and he said himself, he doesn't want
that many, you know, reform isn't going to be just a, a, an,
an for the those on the sinking ship to the life raft for those
to jump onto. That's not what it is.
And it also isn't going to just become a new Conservative Party
because the Conservative Party, and it pains me to say this, the
Conservative Party over the timeit's been in government has
(13:04):
failed in many levels. The Labour Party has failed.
I don't think there's been a radical visionary government
since the time of Margaret Thatcher.
I think Boris Johnson would havebeen that radical visionary
Prime Minister, but he had Putinand COVID to deal with and, and
some very left-leaning typical MPs who wanted to see him
removed because of Brexit. And I think that what we need in
(13:27):
reform is that radical vision about doing things differently
in Westminster and in Whitehall.And we're not going to get that
if all that reform do is bring over a pile of ex ministers you
think within. Days we're going to see some
more high profile I I. Haven't Kathy, I have no idea.
I can't. I don't have a crystal ball.
I can't answer that question, but I do.
I do believe there will be high profile defections.
(13:51):
I'm very sure that will happen for two reasons.
One is there will be people likeme who have given their life to
politics and have a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience
that they think they want to offer and will want to do so and
see how irrelevant the Conservative Party is.
(14:13):
There is no hope for the Conservative Party.
It is not going to turn its fortunes around.
It is not even going to be in opposition after the next
general election. And there are some good MPs in
the Conservative Party who will think, well, I've still got a
lot to give and, and I'm sure will go to Reform and I'm, if I
were then I would have those, those conversations with Nigel
(14:35):
Farage. I'm not sure Nigel will take
everybody. I'm not sure he wants many, but
I think there will be some he would consider.
Boris Johnson says he wouldn't defect to reform because of its
extremely dangerous policy on Russia.
I mean, Nigel Farage has claimedthat NATO provoked Putin's
aggression. The former party leader in Wales
has admitted taking bribes to make statements in favour of
(14:58):
Russia while a member of the European Parliament.
I mean, are you worried about that?
Did you do your due diligence? I did there are there are
policies that I I'm not going toagree on everything with Nigel
Fraud. I didn't agree on everything
with Boris. We'll talk about a.
Few. A few more of them in a minute,
but most. Agreements were in private and
behind the scenes I but there are things I do agree with Nigel
(15:19):
on. I do agree with him on the
economy and you know the it's interesting that Labour actually
adopted one of his policies yesterday which was lifting the
two child benefit gap. The difference being that Nigel
wants to lift the two child benefit cap, the two working
couples for working families andwhat Starmer will probably do is
lift it for everybody, which means people on benefits.
(15:42):
He'll actually increase the welfare bill which is owned.
Chief Secretary of Treasury saidit's unsustainable in the longer
term. So I agree with him on his
attitude to public says and we had a big discussion about this.
Did you talk? About Russia, though, so we.
Talked about Ukraine. And so his support for Ukraine,
his his plans for the economy, law and order and migration were
(16:06):
for me the central themes of what Nigel and I talked about.
But we agreed on he's Johnny come.
Lately on Ukraine, isn't he? I mean, he's taken, he's made,
he's made. Very definite and very clear
statements about Ukraine over a long period of time, yeah, but
he. Took money from the Kremlin
doing his appearances on Russia Today, which is this, you know,
state channel that. Kathy And that was?
(16:28):
After Russia invaded relevant. To nothing that was relevant to
nothing. So it was after Russia?
Invaded there were a number of. MPs, I think, who appeared on
Russia Today, but you didn't. I mean, you wouldn't do that,
would you? No, but but Kathy, I don't like
doing media. I do 1-2 months under pressure.
I only do it for you 'cause I think you're a great
broadcaster. But I'm very limited about what?
(16:50):
And so a lot of MPs are very limited about the media, but
sitting. Down with Russia Today, which is
funded by the Kremlin. That was a mistake by your
leader, wasn't it? Are they to say?
That so you're not. Concerned.
I think it's about statements onRussia.
Oh, you're talking. History.
You're talking about history, and I'm just not gonna go down
there. It's not that historic.
Though isn't it February 2022 only?
Thing that is important is does Nigel Farage support Zelensky
(17:14):
and Ukraine's right to protect its borders and to have its
territory? But, and he does.
And that's for me. And the question I asked Nigel
was it is absolutely vital to methat you have unstinting support
for Zelensky in Ukraine. You know, and he and he.
And he pledged that to you? Absolutely.
I was Secretary of State when Putin invaded.
(17:37):
I had my conversations with my opposite number in Ukraine when
he was in a bunker and Kiev was under fire and he had stacked
around him Ukraine's most precious artwork, protecting it
in a bunker, in a cave. You know, I was invested in
Ukraine. I actually LED in the very first
days across the world, Australia, Japan, New Zealand,
(18:00):
countries across the globe in, in bringing together an accord
where we decided that Russian athletes would not be able to
take part in the Olympic, the Winter Olympics, where they
would not be able to appear in. Russian artists will not be able
to appear in various countries. We LED that.
We were the very first people todo that.
I was invested in Ukraine. It was important to me that
(18:22):
Nigel Farage is also invested. Yeah.
And while you were? Doing all of that and feel very
passionately about it. You're now leader was putting
out on social media February 2022 that the Russian invasion
of Ukraine was a consequence of EU and NATO expansion.
Well, he said. That in 2022, what is important
to me today, and lots of people change their minds on lots of
issues, particularly in politics, what is important to
(18:44):
me today is that Nigel Farage has full support behind Zelensky
and Ukraine and he does. And I'm looking forward, Kathy
not back. I'm looking forward and I will
and I will hold Nigel's feet to the fire on that if I have to.
He will not wave on Ukraine, I'mvery sure of that.
We're a few days out from the Conservative Party conference.
You have described the party as dead.
(19:07):
Just unpack that a bit for. Us well, it's irrelevant
nobody's listening, nobody's interested you know it's
nobody's book well, some people have but you know, very few
organisations have even bought stands at their conference you
know when there are stories online about the Conservative
Party, no one's reading them. When, you know, people switch
off now in this broadcast, in this podcast, no one's
(19:29):
interested in the Conservative Party and and he has to go
further down, you know, so we know that politics is cyclical.
And I'm very sure that maybe, I don't know, 15 years time from
now, the Conservative Party may become fit again to be to be a
force in Westminster. It's facing an.
Existential threat, though, if it's dying, it is.
(19:50):
It is and and it probably will, but that doesn't mean there will
be people who believe in conservativism who won't come
and reform in the future so effectively.
Reform in the Tories will merge,won't they?
So I've said this all along that, you know, if Nigel was
short of the numbers to form an overall majority, it's going to
be a threat to the lower majority, though, isn't it?
(20:12):
Who can say? You know, again, we don't have
crystal balls, do we? You know, Keir Starmer got a
majority. Despite the fact that it was,
you know, wide and loveless and shallow.
He still managed to get one. And yeah, I mean, we seem to be
in the territory. Boris Johnson had an agency.
We seem to be in the territory of large majorities but that
there may need to be an accommodation of some form in
(20:36):
the future, whether that will look like in certain key seats,
reformist on candidates or therewill be some kind of
arrangement. If, if that doesn't happen and
reform are slightly short, I mean reform, we're not going to
get into bed with the Liberal Democrats, but in the Labour.
Would be open to some kind of tie up do you think?
Would you? Well, Cammy.
Bejnak even be there right? So you.
(20:56):
Think she She won't necessarily be, I don't think.
So I don't think I'll make this prediction with you.
I don't think that after next may either Camille Bejanak or
Keir Starmer will be leaders of the parties.
And in fact, I I put serious money on that.
They won't be. Keir Starmer will struggle to
last until next May. We know what happened at his
conference. You know his speech well, he
(21:18):
shored. Up his support thanks to Andy
Burnham Kathy he. What the the point?
It was all optics and it was allwindow dressing.
It was all about muting. Andy Burnham keeping the show on
the road for the cameras. When Labour go back to
Westminster in two weeks it willfall apart.
We know that though you and I know from what we know behind
(21:40):
the scenes, the warfare is real.Lucy Powell will become the
deputy leader of the party. It's Bridget Phillipson, won't
come anywhere near Andy Burnham will continue.
It was just the wrong time at the conference, the wrong
objects put back in. His box, sorry.
Now come back to we know. I know Andy Burnham for a very
long time. Andy Burnham is back in his box
(22:00):
for now, probably for the next two weeks.
Andy Burnham hasn't hasn't gone away.
Kebby Bade. Not not least because.
Lucy Powell is Andy Burnham's right.
You know, woman, he's got his. He's got his person in
Westminster, Kelly Badenoch. Is poised to withdraw from the
European Convention on human rights and the refugee
convention does that not give you pause that you know she's
now coming up with the policies that you wanted to see she.
(22:22):
Can't, because she may. That may be a policy she'll
announce again. Window dressing.
And This is why I am So, you know, aren't so many of us so
heartily sick of politicians andstand and make claims but don't
do anything about it? Well, I mean she.
Can't. Now she's in opposition, and she
won't be. Able to, and she'll never be
able to because their MPs will never back her and she'd never
(22:44):
be able to get that through. And that's because 2/3 of the
MPs in the Conservative Party are to the left of the
Conservative Party. They will never support her in
leaving the ECHR or the convention.
It just won't happen. You've been.
Quite open about the fact that you don't agree with everything
your new leader sets out, but there are a couple of areas that
(23:05):
seems. No, I, I said we're not going to
agree on everything. So I can't think of anything.
He's set out at the moment and they're sure you're going to
remind me. Well, I'm gonna have an.
Idea about the online safety bill, which is yes, you
introduced, you know, you were very proud of it we have had.
Discussions about that, Nigel? Farage says it's dystopian.
He's promised to repeal it. I mean, you can try and talk him
around on that, yeah. Absolutely.
And I've already begun. So what I would like to see is
(23:27):
the word children and young people inserted into every
clause in the Online Safety Bill.
The problem, the thing that happened with the Online Safety
Bill, Kathy. And remember I, I took it out
the weeds where it was nothing and put it before Westminster in
a year. The problem was that every MP
wanted their say on that bill. It was treated like a Christmas
(23:48):
tree and every MP wanted to hanga bauble on it.
And it became just this bizarre bill which is really unworkable
and which the police don't have any ability to use except when
they want to and what they want to use.
And it's convenient. And I think one I would try and
persuade Nigel Farage and he said these words himself and I
(24:09):
was interested to hear him say and he said, I think he said,
you know, I'll say this, actually there are limits to
free speech. That was quite important because
he felt those limits to free speech when people were setting
up online social media accounts calling for his death.
So has. Nigel Farage committed to you
that instead of repealing that bill, he hasn't committed.
(24:30):
Anything but we do have we do I have spoken to him about this.
He's. Probably to listen I have.
He does listen. This is the thing I have been,
I'm absolutely find refreshing and encouraging is that Nigel
will really engage in the conversation.
Whereas, you know, in the past, you know, I had in the past,
(24:53):
I've had prime ministers who will speak to you through their
spags and their aids when it's an uncomfortable subject that
they don't want to discuss. And the thing I find about Nigel
refreshing is that he will have the conversation, robust
conversation with you. So he's not.
Your average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint
of milk? To use your words, no.
He isn't, and I do find that refreshing.
(25:13):
I mean, he went. To Dulwich College.
He's quite he. Did he?
Did yeah, but you know, I think was I might even have said this
to you. I've said this before in an
interview. I'm sure is there is posh and
posh, there are posh people who can talk to anybody.
They still relate to people. They're normal.
And there are posh people who just don't.
And Nigel Farage is somebody whonot only does he have his finger
(25:35):
on the pulse, but he's, he can relate to anyone.
And, and I think you see that how people have responded to him
across the board. So he's, he's, he's up for
discussion. He's always up for debate.
And you know, I, I have to say that in my first days of joining
for him, I've challenged him andI thought, what am I doing?
And but he's been like, like up for it, robust and up for it.
(25:59):
So it's a conversation. It's a conversation I probably
won't win. But what I would say is that
when I ask people, don't you want to protect children,
particularly young girls and young women where we've seen the
the number of those suffering from eating disorders rise
exponentially, the number of young people who took their own
life don't. We were in the 16 to 24 age
(26:20):
grant, but I didn't want to do something about that because I
was the health minister who got the coroner's prevention of
future death reports. I know why these young people
are taking their own lives and you said all.
This tonight when you. Talk to people about that.
They find it. It's difficult to come back at
you with an answer, so I will continue always.
(26:40):
You've said that. To Nigel Farage, have you?
Yeah, and one. Of the, one of the purposes of
me being in reform actually, is to, to have those discussions.
And I will talk about children and young people and I will do
it always. And I may not get my own way,
but at least I'll have my voice heard.
And that's important because youdon't always get your voice
heard. A couple of other.
Policy areas that you may or maynot agree or disagree on with
(27:01):
your new leader. You tried to privatise Channel
4, I did When? You're in government.
Do you expect a reform government to press ahead with
that? Oh well, that's one.
Conversation we haven't had. I also wanted to change the way
the BBC is funded from the licence fee.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this but, and I don't know what
the figure is today. I know the figure was 78% of
(27:24):
everybody convicted for non payment of BB licence fee is a
woman and it's because women carry the many cases, women
carry the responsibility for thehome and for the family and for
the bills. And I wanted to change the way
the BBC was funded. Now, I haven't had either of
those conversations with Nigel Farage and and I don't get the
(27:45):
impression that's that's top of his agenda.
But I will also, along with protecting children and young
people, have the conversations with him about the BBC and he
knows what he's getting with me.He knew what I he, he, he didn't
take me into reform, not knowingthey're the things, the causes
that I've championed. You're.
A former nurse, have you taken issue with him the fact that he
(28:06):
wasn't able to condemn Donald Trump's remarks linking
paracetamol to autism pregnant mums?
So I looked, so I hadn't spoken to him about that and I looked
at what he said and what he saidwas that that we would be led by
the science in the UK and that different countries have hit, I
think. Well, actually, no.
He he said he did. Lean into it with something
(28:28):
else. He he actually.
Said he didn't. He didn't necessarily see that
he would that science was fluid and that he didn't necessarily
believe the science experts. He he didn't want to trust the
science expert. So here's the thing.
About being a Prime Minister is you can't take decisions about
health policy, your chief scientific officer and your
chief. I mean, you can as long as you
(28:50):
are prepared to take a civil lawsuit.
And you know, I mean, that's this is the one thing that
amazes me about COVID, when people talk about COVID
lockdowns and some of the policies we introduced in COVID.
If Boris Johnson had ignored theadvice of the Chief scientific
Officer, the Chief Medical Officer, SAGE and other bodies
that were identified as those who were informing on that
(29:14):
particular policy, he would probably be in prison now as a
result of a civil lawsuit or certainly in that process.
Now, no Prime Minister is ever going to be able to say to
override the chief scientific officer and the chief medical
officer when it comes to health policy, unless of course.
Is extremely. Wealthy and settled.
(29:34):
Well, that's, you know, again hewould change.
As Prime Minister, if he was Prime Minister, he wouldn't have
any. Option not to as a health.
Minister during the pandemic, asyou've set out, are you content
for Nigel Farage to be advised by Asim Malhotra, who claimed at
the Reform Party conference thatCOVID vaccines were a
significant factor in the royal family's cancer diagnosis?
That was. Just insane.
(29:54):
That was literally insane and I'm not sure if that person or
will ever be invited to reform conference again.
I'd be very surprised if he was.Or will you make those?
Representations to Nigel Far when I speak.
To again, that's we spoke about so there is so much discussed.
That's not something I've spokento him about, but but you would.
(30:15):
You would intend to, no. That's pretty.
Pretty reform is I think it was the first major conference it's
ever had. It's learning as it goes.
So it was grossly. Irresponsible wasn't it, to
allow someone like that to be platform?
Well, I don't believe anybody knew that he was going to say
that. Well, he had.
Reform. I mean he, he.
Nobody knew he was going to say that, but he was.
He was opposed. To the COVID vaccines, some
(30:37):
incendiary remarks about those he.
Used the reform platform in order to garner both attention
and immediate interest in his own platform.
Great. And to be clear, what he said
wasn't true. And what Donald Trump has said
about the link between paracetamol and autism, also
untrue, unproven. You just.
(30:57):
Have to the only thing you can do as a minister and when Nigel
Farage is Prime Minister, which he will be very soon, when Nigel
Farage is Prime Minister, when it comes to health policy on
issues such as paracetamol and autism or anything else, he will
have to be guided and take the advice of the chief medical
officer and the chief scientificofficer.
(31:19):
Unless of course, he wants to gooutside that and leave himself
vulnerable for civil lawsuits, obviously.
It's up to the British people whether he becomes Prime
Minister, but just finally, willhe be standing as a Reform MP at
the next election? Have you been offered a peerage
as the price of you defecting? I haven't had those
conversations with Nigel Farage.Interestingly.
(31:40):
If I was a man I probably would have nailed him on a cabinet
position and on a safe seat and on various other things.
But you didn't extract. Anything out of that that just.
Didn't even cross my mind and the period.
Hasn't been mentioned for me. I just literally we have not had
those discussions. For me, the for me, the
important thing was I'm, I'm still involved in politics a
(32:04):
lot. And for me, the important thing
was to remove myself from the Conservative Party.
It's toxic and I've been there since I left in 2022.
It's a toxic, sinking organization.
I wanted to remove myself from it.
And initially I was just going to join Reform.
(32:24):
And it was a third party who said, no, don't just, you do not
just join Reform. You have to defector reform.
Interesting. I have no way to defect from
because I wasn't in a position. But who said that?
The third party say. That a fellow.
A fellow Conservative. I'm not going to say that.
Not Boris Johnson. So.
What? Definitely not Boris Johnson.
(32:45):
He would have. Persuaded you to stay.
Just a final question. Nigel Farage had to eat, I
believe. Camel udder, you ostrich anus on
on a celebrity. Is that well?
Actually, long ago. It's 2012.
You've gone. Eating ostrich anus Did I eat an
ostrich? In this did I I believe.
You did. I just wondered whether you
compared notes with him on disgusting things you had to
eat. No.
(33:06):
No, I mean, honestly, it's somewhere in my distant memory
is a long time ago. Nadine Dorris.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Kathy.
That's it. For the forecast, thank you very
much for watching. Goodbye.
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