November 20, 2025 • 21 mins
US and Russian officials have drafted new proposals to end the Ukraine war but they would appear to require major concessions from President Zelenskyy over territory and weapons. Will they be acceptable to the Ukrainian President, and what about his forces fighting on the frontline?
On this episode of the Fourcast, Matt Frei speaks to the award-winning filmmaker Mstyslav Chernov who has a new film just out that follows a brigade of soldiers as they attempt to liberate the village of Andriivka in the east of the country, the sort of place that would be included in the new Russian-controlled territory.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Someone invaded your home, Someone knocked out a door,
Someone killed your members of your family.
You don't. Have a choice to kill, you
don't. Really have a choice you.
Either surrender and die or you fight back and then you just
hope that someone will not twistyour your arm back and you sit
and will not tell you to surrender.
So whatever happens in Kiev or whatever said in the Oval
(00:22):
Office, is that in a parallel universe?
They need to engage because theyare in danger and it takes only.
24 hours to get for Russian tankto Berlin.
It takes only 2020 minutes for Russian nuclear missile to hit
London. Hello and welcome to the
forecast. It is a peace plan with 28
(00:42):
points, apparently none of them likely to favour Ukraine.
US and Russian officials have drafted new proposals to end the
war, but they would appear to require major concessions from
President Zelensky over territory and weapons.
Will they be acceptable to the Ukrainian president?
And what about his fourth forcesfighting on the front line?
Well, one man who knows both is the documentary film maker
(01:04):
Mitsuslav Chernov, who won a BAFTA and an Oscar last year and
has a new film just out that follows a brigade of soldiers as
they attempt to liberate the village of Andrivka in the east
of Ukraine, the sort of place that would be included in the
new Russian controlled territoryshould there be a deal.
Mitsuslav is here today in the studio.
(01:24):
Welcome. Let's just get the news, the
news out of the way. And there is always news about
Ukraine, this peace plan cooked up by the Russians and the
Americans. Apparently the Ukrainians have
only just been told about it. Europeans have not been involved
in it at all. Do you know anything about it?
Do you think it might be a runner?
What I've seen so far, it has been very similar to the Russian
(01:50):
demands that were given to Ukrainians and US diplomats in
Turkey. And the demands are maximalist
and. From the Russian point of view,
yeah. Yeah.
And when I think the way it looks for Ukrainians, the way it
(02:14):
feels for Ukrainians is that it's rewarding the attacker and
just punishing the victim and also taking away the possibility
for the victim to keep protecting themselves.
And I think that's what's scary.It doesn't just ask for land
(02:36):
concessions. It also ensures that Ukraine
will not be able to fight in case this invasion continues.
Which is negating the whole point of the war, what
Ukrainians have been fighting for, for the last, you know, 3
1/2 years, almost four years. Yes.
And we then we say war that for Ukrainians, this is of war of
(02:56):
self-defense, this is invasion that started more than 10 years
ago since occupation of Crimea and Donbass and continues.
And Ukrainians know that peace deal that was made before didn't
work and Russia still attacked Ukraine.
So they know the price of these peace deals.
(03:17):
But again, whenever I am on the front line, whenever I'm
speaking to civilians or soldiers, but or politicians,
there is no other nation in the world that wants peace more.
And I think so far every requirement, it was made by both
allies and and Russia, the invader has been met and agreed
(03:43):
on. And Ukraine has been saying over
and over we want peace. Let's just.
Finish it. Let's just let's just stop it,
that's what. But again, there is a difference
between there's a difference between surrender and peace,
right? And what is currently required
from Ukraine, as I keep speakingto again, civilians and soldiers
(04:08):
for all, for all of them that looks like in demand of
surrender. So the film that you've made,
which is extraordinarily powerful, the latest film and
they're all powerful, but this, this one, 2000 meters to
Andrivka. This is about fighting, spilling
blood, your own blood, soldiers blood for every inch of
territory. And it's about the ultimate
(04:30):
sacrifice for your soil, you know, for your for your bit of
earth. And then you've got President
Trump saying blithely, oh, we might give it away.
We might not give it away. What?
What's the impact of that on people actually on the front
line? I would say limited and hear,
(04:51):
hear me out. There have been many things that
have been said since the beginning of 2025 been many
claims of supporting Ukraine andnot supporting Ukraine of that
sort of claims that pushed Russian point of view and pushed
back on that. And none of that, frankly
(05:11):
speaking, has been translated into action.
So there is a lot of skepticism both on the frontline among the
soldiers and civilians to towards what they hear.
It's just. It's just.
Not reliable. It's just any claims until they
are translated into real action or just words and opinions have
(05:34):
been changing every week. So I, I think, I think it's just
doesn't work that and anymore asit's not impactful anymore.
So whatever happens in Kiev or whatever said in the Oval
Office, or maybe an Ankara, you know, is that in a parallel
universe? I remember I came back to
(06:00):
Ukraine and I asked Feijer, our protagonist of 2000 Minutes, to
Andriyevka, who is right now notvery far from her key, my
hometown, making sure that I still have a home.
He's he and his platoon and his brigade is the only reason for
that. And I asked him, hey, how do you
feel about what happened in between President Zelensky and
(06:23):
President Trump? He said, oh, my God.
First I thought we're all screwed.
But then he said, but then I realized we at least we don't
have any more illusions. And we know that we can rely
only on ourselves. And I think that disillusionment
also comes with a sense of unitythat you see in Ukrainians.
(06:46):
And that's that's what saved Ukraine in the beginning of full
scale invasion that resolve and that unity to.
Resilience, the unity amongst the people, yes, to survive.
In a sense of and a sense of agency, you see the core
difference between Ukrainian anda citizen of a totalitarian
(07:06):
regime or authoritarian regime of anywhere in the world.
And I'm going to point fingers right now is that there is an
understanding and you as a citizen have power over your
government, have power over what's going to happen to your
community and what's going to happen to your country.
And that led to miscalculation and the of of Russian forces
(07:28):
that came into Ukraine and thought everyone's going to
surrender. That's didn't happen because
each person in Ukraine had that sense of agency and what usually
authoritarians regime do the first thing any authoritarian
regime does to its people, they educate them in indifference.
And that's not how Ukraine's are.
But the Russians are also more resilient than we thought they
(07:52):
might be at the beginning of thewar.
Is that down to the amount of money that Putin is paying
soldiers? Have they developed their own
resilience about the war aims, even if they started with
propaganda? I mean, I know you're not
spending time in Russia, but what do you think?
Yeah, I'm. Not spending time in.
Russia. But what are you imagining is
happening on the in their brains?
I'm not spending time in Russia,I'm not Russian.
I have no idea what's happening in their heads, but what I, what
(08:15):
I, as I told you just now, I think there is this core
difference of the self agency of, of making decisions as a
citizen on the Ukrainian side and probably, I suppose maybe
the absence of that so on, on the Russian side.
So the follow the rules, they follow the orders, they comply
(08:40):
with the government that tells me to that tells them to do
something even if they don't agree with it.
Although I do feel that there isa lot of agreement among the
Russian population with what theRussia does in Ukraine.
A lot of that is due to propaganda and during the just
the colonial culture of of Russia as an empire that keeps
(09:03):
invading neighboring countries. And we see it over and over and
we see them over and over doing the same thing.
They invade the neighboring country.
Hundreds of years they do the same.
They invade the neighboring country.
They commit violent crimes against the population.
They pressure so that so that the the the remaining surviving
(09:24):
population will pressure their government to comply with all
their demands that Russia has given them.
And that's exactly what we're seeing now.
The violent attack on Chernobyl just yesterday and all the spike
of the attacks after the beginning of the negotiations.
You see the spike of the attacksand drones and missiles.
It's not a coincidence. It's a negotiating tactics, the
(09:46):
terror against the civilians. And that's what they that's what
they think is going to happen, that the Ukrainians will
pressure the government to stop resisting.
But did it happen to, did it happen to UK when, when UK was
bombed during the Second World War, did people lose their
resolve? I don't think so, yeah.
(10:08):
I think the war's been, as I said earlier, the war has been
going on for a very long time. I don't think any of us would
have thought it would go on for this long.
So I wonder if the agency, the resilience that you describe and
that we see in your in your filmis that is the biggest enemy of
that fatigue, just tiredness. You see, to speak about the
(10:29):
fatigue is, is a pretty luxury thing.
And I think I can say here sitting with you that I'm tired,
but I wouldn't allow myself to do so because I know that there
are people right now in the trench or people who, who are
evacuating civilians from the cities that being invaded and
and bombed medics, just people who help and try to survive all
(10:56):
they might be tired, but they are trying to survive.
There's a difference. You know, I, I, I often see this
twist that that some of the politicians around the world do
to present this as an equal fight between 22 forces for
land. That's not that.
(11:17):
This is home invasion. Someone invaded your home.
Someone knocked out a door. Someone killed your members of
your family. You.
Don't have a choice to kill? You don't.
Really have a choice? You either surrender and die
what we saw in Butcher, Izum, Kirsan, Mariupol or or you fight
back and then you just hope thatsomeone will not twist your your
(11:40):
arm back and you sit and will not tell you to surrender.
That's just the only hope you have for now.
You know, you sort of hope for help, but also you hope that
people will not twist, twist your arms behind your back and
say surrender to the attacker. Because, you know, we see it
very much from our point of view, you know, whether you're
in Washington or in London, you know, what weapons are we
(12:00):
providing? You know, are they, you know, is
the Ukrainian army doing the most with those weapons?
But actually when you're, when you're in, you know, 2000 meters
from Andrivka, it's very local is it's very specific.
It's about a tree and a rock anda piece of earth.
Because every tree, every rock bears meaning when you are in
(12:21):
the land of your childhood, whenthis is where you spend your
time. When you were a kid, that's
where you went to your grandmother's home.
This is where you first fell in love.
All that has meaning. You are going to fight for that
and you of course, going to be upset if someone just, you know,
(12:42):
tries to give it away. There are necessary steps.
I'm again speaking from a journalistic and from a
filmmaker point of view. I think that there are some
difficult decisions that can be made or or not to, to achieve
that peace, but that doesn't take away the pain of loss of
(13:03):
that land and the value of everymeter of it, of every tree.
Imagine right now 25% of Ukraineis occupied, almost 25% or only
25% maybe that. Imagine 25% of London was
occupied and Russians would be like, oh, give it to us, that's
fine. I mean, this is ours now.
(13:23):
Would that be acceptable? So if you're fighting for that,
every tree for that meter, you know, leading up to the village
that is your home, if you're, ifyou're giving it your
everything, do you always have in the back of your mind that
actually one day someone with a stroke of a pen could just give
it away and some deal and then what's the point of fighting for
(13:44):
it? Again, this is something of
course you're afraid of. You're afraid to lose something
very, very dear to you. But the most dear thing, the
most dear to you is actually your community, to fairly
speaking, human connections, connections to your family,
connections to your community, to your city, to your region,
(14:07):
and ultimately to your country is the most this, this is the
country. It's is also land, Not only
land, you know, it's people. So of course human lives are the
most important. Yeah.
When you made 20 days in Mariupol, it was all about
Russian tanks and artillery, andthat was scary.
(14:30):
I mean, I remember being there at the beginning of the war, not
in Mariupol, elsewhere, and it was terrifying, but drones.
Yeah. Drones, which is what is
dictating the war at the moment.That's even much worse, isn't
it? Tell us about the drones.
The the warfare has changed overpast two years since we shot
(14:50):
2000 units to Andreevka. The the war changed completely.
It's all about drones, robotic systems, AI driven killing
machines. Used by both sides.
Yes, and the competition for whocomes with deadlier and and more
(15:13):
advanced weapons is is unfoldingright in front of our eyes.
But again, for Ukrainian system matter of survival, you know, we
talk about weapons that have been sent to Ukraine and I think
I've seen they've been making a difference.
But also what we know now that right now the 80% of all
(15:35):
casualties on the front line is drone are drone casualties.
And those are not, you know, those are assembled in basements
by just regular people, by civilians.
And for those, you know, who haven't been in a in a drone
battlefield, I mean, just describe what it's like having
that noise above your head all the time, just like what it's
(15:59):
like that. There's there's an eye in the
sky that just keeps, you know, that knows where.
You are imagine there is a there's there are there vultures
circling around you all the timeand and death is walking around
you all the time and you know you can die every minute and you
know you're seen by an, by someone who wants to kill you
(16:22):
every minute. And also they're not only drones
that are targeting you, they're also drones that are fighting
each other in the air. There is a always like a mother
drone. There are smaller reconnaissance
drones, suicide drones. I've seen the two rails with,
with the machine guns. It's it's insane and it's scary
(16:46):
and just think that's the new reality.
And you can't hide from it. There is no hiding for it.
And also frontline journalism, as do we know it, it's gone.
It's just. Not there anymore.
You can't survive on the frontline with a camera.
You can't be there. You just can't get close to it.
And that's a problem. Because you see, I have many
(17:08):
people asking me, oh, Mrs. Slough, is the war over?
Like people are not fighting anymore, right.
And I'm saying, no, really, theyare fighting and it's as violent
as it was before. It's just the only thing we
thing we see now is the picture from a drone.
That's it. There's just no way to film it.
And when there's no, no way to film it, there is less interest,
(17:30):
sure, in the audience. And when there's less interest,
when there's less interest in the audience, the media is
sending less people on the frontline, and that's the circle that
repeats itself. Are you worried that the world
is getting bored? I mean, in Ukraine, no one's
getting bored. You can't get.
Bored. I can't say that word because
it's not a popularity. It's not ATV show that has to
compete for attention. Does the outside world need to
(17:53):
engage for this thing to end? They do, but they don't need to
engage. But they don't need to engage
because they have to feel something for Ukrainians.
They need to engage because theyare in danger.
I can't, I can't communicate clearly enough how different
what what Russian, what Russia exports and what Russia says to
(18:16):
it's own people is what Russia says to it's own people that
they are at war with UK, with Europe, with US, they are
currently fighting and actually winning.
That's what they say, and it takes only 24.
Hours to get for Russian tank to.
Berlin, it takes only 2020 minutes for Russian nuclear
missile to hit London. And you know, I've seen this TV
(18:39):
show when they were saying ha, ha, ha.
And all this, all this big talk that UK gives.
If we launch one missile, it will be the empty island.
And they live with that in mind every day.
And we don't feel it because it's very dangerous.
(19:02):
Ukrainians have made that mistake.
They thought 2014 was terrible, but things are fine.
And then we just kind of let it go.
Didn't prepare for what's comingor didn't prepare enough, and
here we go. Just finally, there's been a lot
of reporting about corruption scandals in Kiev.
(19:23):
I mean, a big corruption scandalinvolving some of the
president's closest associates and friends.
He is now about to crack down onthis again.
Do do the guys on the, the guys and, you know, the women on the
front line, are they deeply depressed by that?
That's indeed. Does this motivate them?
That's a very interesting question and that's what I would
expect. But actually that's not what
(19:45):
happens. Everyone I spoke has this
disappointment, obviously, but also they they are happy.
And the reason why they're happy, because this, there is a
chain of events here, let's not forget.
And the corruption agency gets dismantled, right?
(20:06):
And then thousands of people go in the streets in wartime,
thousands of people go in the streets of Kiev and other cities
around Ukraine and. Exercise direct democracy.
They peacefully protest to tell their government to fix the
issues. Government does it great.
This anti corruption agency comes back into power and starts
(20:28):
cracking down on the corruption.And it's it's working.
It's amazing. But I wish that happened to
Ukraine many years ago. So yes, it's stressing and it's
really bad timing, but also there is so much hope there that
means something Ukrainians were fighting for is actually is
(20:53):
actually working. Fidia again, our protagonist, he
said, I'm looking at all these young people who are in the
streets protesting and I know who I'm fighting for.
I'm not fighting for the government.
I'm not fighting for like abstract ideas.
I'm fighting for those young people who exercised a direct
democracy and I believe him. Do you think that we'll be
(21:17):
having this conversation about the war this time next year?
I wish we will not be speaking about it.
I wish. We'll be talking about my new
film, which will be about the end of the war, and we'll be
like summarizing what happened and we'll be happy that it's all
over. Mrs. Live Channel, thank you
(21:38):
very much indeed. That's it from the forecast.
You heard it there from one of the great documentary makers
documenting this extraordinary war that has gone on for far too
long. See you next time.
Someone invaded your home, Someone knocked out a door,
Someone killed your members of your family.
You don't. Have a choice to kill, you
don't. Really have a choice you.
Either surrender and die or you fight back and then you just
hope that someone will not twistyour your arm back and you sit
and will not tell you to surrender.
So whatever happens in Kiev or whatever said in the Oval
(00:22):
Office, is that in a parallel universe?
They need to engage because theyare in danger and it takes only.
24 hours to get for Russian tankto Berlin.
It takes only 2020 minutes for Russian nuclear missile to hit
London. Hello and welcome to the
forecast. It is a peace plan with 28
(00:42):
points, apparently none of them likely to favour Ukraine.
US and Russian officials have drafted new proposals to end the
war, but they would appear to require major concessions from
President Zelensky over territory and weapons.
Will they be acceptable to the Ukrainian president?
And what about his fourth forcesfighting on the front line?
Well, one man who knows both is the documentary film maker
(01:04):
Mitsuslav Chernov, who won a BAFTA and an Oscar last year and
has a new film just out that follows a brigade of soldiers as
they attempt to liberate the village of Andrivka in the east
of Ukraine, the sort of place that would be included in the
new Russian controlled territoryshould there be a deal.
Mitsuslav is here today in the studio.
(01:24):
Welcome. Let's just get the news, the
news out of the way. And there is always news about
Ukraine, this peace plan cooked up by the Russians and the
Americans. Apparently the Ukrainians have
only just been told about it. Europeans have not been involved
in it at all. Do you know anything about it?
Do you think it might be a runner?
What I've seen so far, it has been very similar to the Russian
(01:50):
demands that were given to Ukrainians and US diplomats in
Turkey. And the demands are maximalist
and. From the Russian point of view,
yeah. Yeah.
And when I think the way it looks for Ukrainians, the way it
(02:14):
feels for Ukrainians is that it's rewarding the attacker and
just punishing the victim and also taking away the possibility
for the victim to keep protecting themselves.
And I think that's what's scary.It doesn't just ask for land
(02:36):
concessions. It also ensures that Ukraine
will not be able to fight in case this invasion continues.
Which is negating the whole point of the war, what
Ukrainians have been fighting for, for the last, you know, 3
1/2 years, almost four years. Yes.
And we then we say war that for Ukrainians, this is of war of
(02:56):
self-defense, this is invasion that started more than 10 years
ago since occupation of Crimea and Donbass and continues.
And Ukrainians know that peace deal that was made before didn't
work and Russia still attacked Ukraine.
So they know the price of these peace deals.
(03:17):
But again, whenever I am on the front line, whenever I'm
speaking to civilians or soldiers, but or politicians,
there is no other nation in the world that wants peace more.
And I think so far every requirement, it was made by both
allies and and Russia, the invader has been met and agreed
(03:43):
on. And Ukraine has been saying over
and over we want peace. Let's just.
Finish it. Let's just let's just stop it,
that's what. But again, there is a difference
between there's a difference between surrender and peace,
right? And what is currently required
from Ukraine, as I keep speakingto again, civilians and soldiers
(04:08):
for all, for all of them that looks like in demand of
surrender. So the film that you've made,
which is extraordinarily powerful, the latest film and
they're all powerful, but this, this one, 2000 meters to
Andrivka. This is about fighting, spilling
blood, your own blood, soldiers blood for every inch of
territory. And it's about the ultimate
(04:30):
sacrifice for your soil, you know, for your for your bit of
earth. And then you've got President
Trump saying blithely, oh, we might give it away.
We might not give it away. What?
What's the impact of that on people actually on the front
line? I would say limited and hear,
(04:51):
hear me out. There have been many things that
have been said since the beginning of 2025 been many
claims of supporting Ukraine andnot supporting Ukraine of that
sort of claims that pushed Russian point of view and pushed
back on that. And none of that, frankly
(05:11):
speaking, has been translated into action.
So there is a lot of skepticism both on the frontline among the
soldiers and civilians to towards what they hear.
It's just. It's just.
Not reliable. It's just any claims until they
are translated into real action or just words and opinions have
(05:34):
been changing every week. So I, I think, I think it's just
doesn't work that and anymore asit's not impactful anymore.
So whatever happens in Kiev or whatever said in the Oval
Office, or maybe an Ankara, you know, is that in a parallel
universe? I remember I came back to
(06:00):
Ukraine and I asked Feijer, our protagonist of 2000 Minutes, to
Andriyevka, who is right now notvery far from her key, my
hometown, making sure that I still have a home.
He's he and his platoon and his brigade is the only reason for
that. And I asked him, hey, how do you
feel about what happened in between President Zelensky and
(06:23):
President Trump? He said, oh, my God.
First I thought we're all screwed.
But then he said, but then I realized we at least we don't
have any more illusions. And we know that we can rely
only on ourselves. And I think that disillusionment
also comes with a sense of unitythat you see in Ukrainians.
(06:46):
And that's that's what saved Ukraine in the beginning of full
scale invasion that resolve and that unity to.
Resilience, the unity amongst the people, yes, to survive.
In a sense of and a sense of agency, you see the core
difference between Ukrainian anda citizen of a totalitarian
(07:06):
regime or authoritarian regime of anywhere in the world.
And I'm going to point fingers right now is that there is an
understanding and you as a citizen have power over your
government, have power over what's going to happen to your
community and what's going to happen to your country.
And that led to miscalculation and the of of Russian forces
(07:28):
that came into Ukraine and thought everyone's going to
surrender. That's didn't happen because
each person in Ukraine had that sense of agency and what usually
authoritarians regime do the first thing any authoritarian
regime does to its people, they educate them in indifference.
And that's not how Ukraine's are.
But the Russians are also more resilient than we thought they
(07:52):
might be at the beginning of thewar.
Is that down to the amount of money that Putin is paying
soldiers? Have they developed their own
resilience about the war aims, even if they started with
propaganda? I mean, I know you're not
spending time in Russia, but what do you think?
Yeah, I'm. Not spending time in.
Russia. But what are you imagining is
happening on the in their brains?
I'm not spending time in Russia,I'm not Russian.
I have no idea what's happening in their heads, but what I, what
(08:15):
I, as I told you just now, I think there is this core
difference of the self agency of, of making decisions as a
citizen on the Ukrainian side and probably, I suppose maybe
the absence of that so on, on the Russian side.
So the follow the rules, they follow the orders, they comply
(08:40):
with the government that tells me to that tells them to do
something even if they don't agree with it.
Although I do feel that there isa lot of agreement among the
Russian population with what theRussia does in Ukraine.
A lot of that is due to propaganda and during the just
the colonial culture of of Russia as an empire that keeps
(09:03):
invading neighboring countries. And we see it over and over and
we see them over and over doing the same thing.
They invade the neighboring country.
Hundreds of years they do the same.
They invade the neighboring country.
They commit violent crimes against the population.
They pressure so that so that the the the remaining surviving
(09:24):
population will pressure their government to comply with all
their demands that Russia has given them.
And that's exactly what we're seeing now.
The violent attack on Chernobyl just yesterday and all the spike
of the attacks after the beginning of the negotiations.
You see the spike of the attacksand drones and missiles.
It's not a coincidence. It's a negotiating tactics, the
(09:46):
terror against the civilians. And that's what they that's what
they think is going to happen, that the Ukrainians will
pressure the government to stop resisting.
But did it happen to, did it happen to UK when, when UK was
bombed during the Second World War, did people lose their
resolve? I don't think so, yeah.
(10:08):
I think the war's been, as I said earlier, the war has been
going on for a very long time. I don't think any of us would
have thought it would go on for this long.
So I wonder if the agency, the resilience that you describe and
that we see in your in your filmis that is the biggest enemy of
that fatigue, just tiredness. You see, to speak about the
(10:29):
fatigue is, is a pretty luxury thing.
And I think I can say here sitting with you that I'm tired,
but I wouldn't allow myself to do so because I know that there
are people right now in the trench or people who, who are
evacuating civilians from the cities that being invaded and
and bombed medics, just people who help and try to survive all
(10:56):
they might be tired, but they are trying to survive.
There's a difference. You know, I, I, I often see this
twist that that some of the politicians around the world do
to present this as an equal fight between 22 forces for
land. That's not that.
(11:17):
This is home invasion. Someone invaded your home.
Someone knocked out a door. Someone killed your members of
your family. You.
Don't have a choice to kill? You don't.
Really have a choice? You either surrender and die
what we saw in Butcher, Izum, Kirsan, Mariupol or or you fight
back and then you just hope thatsomeone will not twist your your
(11:40):
arm back and you sit and will not tell you to surrender.
That's just the only hope you have for now.
You know, you sort of hope for help, but also you hope that
people will not twist, twist your arms behind your back and
say surrender to the attacker. Because, you know, we see it
very much from our point of view, you know, whether you're
in Washington or in London, you know, what weapons are we
(12:00):
providing? You know, are they, you know, is
the Ukrainian army doing the most with those weapons?
But actually when you're, when you're in, you know, 2000 meters
from Andrivka, it's very local is it's very specific.
It's about a tree and a rock anda piece of earth.
Because every tree, every rock bears meaning when you are in
(12:21):
the land of your childhood, whenthis is where you spend your
time. When you were a kid, that's
where you went to your grandmother's home.
This is where you first fell in love.
All that has meaning. You are going to fight for that
and you of course, going to be upset if someone just, you know,
(12:42):
tries to give it away. There are necessary steps.
I'm again speaking from a journalistic and from a
filmmaker point of view. I think that there are some
difficult decisions that can be made or or not to, to achieve
that peace, but that doesn't take away the pain of loss of
(13:03):
that land and the value of everymeter of it, of every tree.
Imagine right now 25% of Ukraineis occupied, almost 25% or only
25% maybe that. Imagine 25% of London was
occupied and Russians would be like, oh, give it to us, that's
fine. I mean, this is ours now.
(13:23):
Would that be acceptable? So if you're fighting for that,
every tree for that meter, you know, leading up to the village
that is your home, if you're, ifyou're giving it your
everything, do you always have in the back of your mind that
actually one day someone with a stroke of a pen could just give
it away and some deal and then what's the point of fighting for
(13:44):
it? Again, this is something of
course you're afraid of. You're afraid to lose something
very, very dear to you. But the most dear thing, the
most dear to you is actually your community, to fairly
speaking, human connections, connections to your family,
connections to your community, to your city, to your region,
(14:07):
and ultimately to your country is the most this, this is the
country. It's is also land, Not only
land, you know, it's people. So of course human lives are the
most important. Yeah.
When you made 20 days in Mariupol, it was all about
Russian tanks and artillery, andthat was scary.
(14:30):
I mean, I remember being there at the beginning of the war, not
in Mariupol, elsewhere, and it was terrifying, but drones.
Yeah. Drones, which is what is
dictating the war at the moment.That's even much worse, isn't
it? Tell us about the drones.
The the warfare has changed overpast two years since we shot
(14:50):
2000 units to Andreevka. The the war changed completely.
It's all about drones, robotic systems, AI driven killing
machines. Used by both sides.
Yes, and the competition for whocomes with deadlier and and more
(15:13):
advanced weapons is is unfoldingright in front of our eyes.
But again, for Ukrainian system matter of survival, you know, we
talk about weapons that have been sent to Ukraine and I think
I've seen they've been making a difference.
But also what we know now that right now the 80% of all
(15:35):
casualties on the front line is drone are drone casualties.
And those are not, you know, those are assembled in basements
by just regular people, by civilians.
And for those, you know, who haven't been in a in a drone
battlefield, I mean, just describe what it's like having
that noise above your head all the time, just like what it's
(15:59):
like that. There's there's an eye in the
sky that just keeps, you know, that knows where.
You are imagine there is a there's there are there vultures
circling around you all the timeand and death is walking around
you all the time and you know you can die every minute and you
know you're seen by an, by someone who wants to kill you
(16:22):
every minute. And also they're not only drones
that are targeting you, they're also drones that are fighting
each other in the air. There is a always like a mother
drone. There are smaller reconnaissance
drones, suicide drones. I've seen the two rails with,
with the machine guns. It's it's insane and it's scary
(16:46):
and just think that's the new reality.
And you can't hide from it. There is no hiding for it.
And also frontline journalism, as do we know it, it's gone.
It's just. Not there anymore.
You can't survive on the frontline with a camera.
You can't be there. You just can't get close to it.
And that's a problem. Because you see, I have many
(17:08):
people asking me, oh, Mrs. Slough, is the war over?
Like people are not fighting anymore, right.
And I'm saying, no, really, theyare fighting and it's as violent
as it was before. It's just the only thing we
thing we see now is the picture from a drone.
That's it. There's just no way to film it.
And when there's no, no way to film it, there is less interest,
(17:30):
sure, in the audience. And when there's less interest,
when there's less interest in the audience, the media is
sending less people on the frontline, and that's the circle that
repeats itself. Are you worried that the world
is getting bored? I mean, in Ukraine, no one's
getting bored. You can't get.
Bored. I can't say that word because
it's not a popularity. It's not ATV show that has to
compete for attention. Does the outside world need to
(17:53):
engage for this thing to end? They do, but they don't need to
engage. But they don't need to engage
because they have to feel something for Ukrainians.
They need to engage because theyare in danger.
I can't, I can't communicate clearly enough how different
what what Russian, what Russia exports and what Russia says to
(18:16):
it's own people is what Russia says to it's own people that
they are at war with UK, with Europe, with US, they are
currently fighting and actually winning.
That's what they say, and it takes only 24.
Hours to get for Russian tank to.
Berlin, it takes only 2020 minutes for Russian nuclear
missile to hit London. And you know, I've seen this TV
(18:39):
show when they were saying ha, ha, ha.
And all this, all this big talk that UK gives.
If we launch one missile, it will be the empty island.
And they live with that in mind every day.
And we don't feel it because it's very dangerous.
(19:02):
Ukrainians have made that mistake.
They thought 2014 was terrible, but things are fine.
And then we just kind of let it go.
Didn't prepare for what's comingor didn't prepare enough, and
here we go. Just finally, there's been a lot
of reporting about corruption scandals in Kiev.
(19:23):
I mean, a big corruption scandalinvolving some of the
president's closest associates and friends.
He is now about to crack down onthis again.
Do do the guys on the, the guys and, you know, the women on the
front line, are they deeply depressed by that?
That's indeed. Does this motivate them?
That's a very interesting question and that's what I would
expect. But actually that's not what
(19:45):
happens. Everyone I spoke has this
disappointment, obviously, but also they they are happy.
And the reason why they're happy, because this, there is a
chain of events here, let's not forget.
And the corruption agency gets dismantled, right?
(20:06):
And then thousands of people go in the streets in wartime,
thousands of people go in the streets of Kiev and other cities
around Ukraine and. Exercise direct democracy.
They peacefully protest to tell their government to fix the
issues. Government does it great.
This anti corruption agency comes back into power and starts
(20:28):
cracking down on the corruption.And it's it's working.
It's amazing. But I wish that happened to
Ukraine many years ago. So yes, it's stressing and it's
really bad timing, but also there is so much hope there that
means something Ukrainians were fighting for is actually is
(20:53):
actually working. Fidia again, our protagonist, he
said, I'm looking at all these young people who are in the
streets protesting and I know who I'm fighting for.
I'm not fighting for the government.
I'm not fighting for like abstract ideas.
I'm fighting for those young people who exercised a direct
democracy and I believe him. Do you think that we'll be
(21:17):
having this conversation about the war this time next year?
I wish we will not be speaking about it.
I wish. We'll be talking about my new
film, which will be about the end of the war, and we'll be
like summarizing what happened and we'll be happy that it's all
over. Mrs. Live Channel, thank you
(21:38):
very much indeed. That's it from the forecast.
You heard it there from one of the great documentary makers
documenting this extraordinary war that has gone on for far too
long. See you next time.
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