September 16, 2025 • 31 mins
A UN commission investigating the Gaza war has concluded that Israel is committing genocide, adding its voice to growing international concern from legal scholars and human rights organisations.
It doesn’t have the force of a court or the UN Security Council. But as a commission of eminent legal experts, its findings carry significant moral weight.
Arab Barghouthi is the son of Marwan Barghouthi, who is perhaps the most popular Palestinian leader in the occupied territories. He has been in jail for two decades after refusing to take part in the legal process that ultimately convicted him of being involved in attacks that led to the deaths of five people. He denied involvement.
In the podcast Arab Barghouthi makes claims about his father's alleged mistreatment in prison. The Israeli prison service has previously responded to these allegations by saying that they have been examined in court which concluded that there had been no violation of the law by the Israeli Prison Service. It also said that all detainees have the right to file a complaint that will be fully examined by official authorities.
Israel's Foreign Ministry has categorically rejected the UN commission's report calling it "distorted and false". Israel has always strenuously denied all claims of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid in relation to the Palestinian people.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine didn't start on
October 7th, but it's in on steroids after October 7th.
We just want to have our PTSD inin in peace.
We never have PTSD because the trauma is never paused.
Let's talk. More about your father.
He's been in jail most of your life.
He's been put in in solitary confinement, assaulted 3
separate times and one assault was very very brutal.
(00:23):
So can we talk about practical steps?
How do you see the political steps to bring an end to the
killing, first of all, and then the beginning of a political
process? Hello, and welcome to the
Forecast. I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and
I'm coming to you from Jerusalem, the King David Hotel,
a historic place here in this city.
(00:45):
And we're bringing you this podcast as the UN Commission has
just found that Israel has been committing genocide.
It's found on a number of frontsand this of course comes on the
back of international scholars and various other organisations
coming to the same conclusion. Now it doesn't have the legal
(01:07):
standing of a court. It is not the Security Council.
It is a body set up for the UN, consisting of eminent legal
minds, but it carries some moralauthority.
My guest today is Arab Barghouti, the son of Marwan
Barghouti, perhaps the most popular Palestinian leader in
(01:32):
this country. He has been in jail for two
decades after refusing to take part in a legal process, a court
he refused to recognise on charges that again,
international bodies have found would not pass any kind of legal
test. He is often regarded as the most
popular leader here, sometimes spoken of as the Palestinian
(01:57):
Mandela and Arab is in London campaigning for his father's
release. Thank you so much for joining
us. Thank you for having me.
Let me begin with the UN International Commission.
They have found that on four outof five fronts, Israel is
committing genocide. What impact do you think that
has? Well, I think that it's a step
(02:20):
into the right direction into calling and labelling it as it
should be, which is a genocide. I don't think that there is any
doubt in in our hearts. We didn't need as Palestinians a
72 page report to tell us that this is a genocide because
destroying the infrastructure, the health system, the education
system and all of that and slaughtering 10s of thousands of
(02:42):
civilians is nothing but a genocide.
And it's it's good for pressuring governments into
changing their policies. But I think that it's been very
clear to us for two years now that it's a genocide.
At the same time, Israel is stepping up its attacks on Gaza
City, saying it is targeting buildings being used by Hamas.
(03:05):
They say Gaza City is burning. What do you think they are
actually doing? They're after the the civilian
population. They want to ethnically cleanse
the Palestinian people and and they are using genocide as a
tool to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian people.
They want to make sure, you know, the towers that they're
talking about are the last few towers that are being lived by
(03:28):
civilians. And they don't want that.
They don't want any Palestinian to stay in, in Gaza.
And I think that, you know, we've been going through this
project for decades now. The ethnic cleansing of
Palestine didn't start on October 7th.
It was maybe slower than this, but it's in on steroids after
October 7th. Because they saw that it's a
(03:49):
golden opportunity with the blank check that they've been
given by the Western governmentsto commit the war crimes and the
crimes against humanity that arethey are committing against the
Palestinian people. And the fact that this report
went on at the same time while the Israeli army and the Israeli
(04:10):
government is, is, you know, committing this offence.
And Gaza tells you everything that you need to know.
They have no limits. They think that they are above
the law and they have the green light to do whatever they want
with the Palestinian people. This comes days after the UN
General Assembly backed the French Saudi statement, the
(04:31):
declaration calling for A2 statesolution, and it comes just
ahead of the likely recognition by Britain, France, Belgium,
Canada and Australia or the Palestinian state.
Do you think any of this international pressure is having
an effect? It does.
It's a step into the right direction.
It's not a game changer. We shouldn't overreact, but also
(04:54):
we shouldn't minimise these efforts.
We we really welcome these efforts.
I think that the Saudi and French initiative is very
important. It protects the diplomatically
the two state solution and the establishment of the Palestinian
state. But unfortunately it does not
change things on the ground. On the ground, things are going
worse by the day. And in order for this to really
(05:18):
have a real impact and influence, it should take the
next step, which is putting realsanctions on the Israeli
government and making sure that the Israeli government pays for
for the what what they're doing.And then only then they will
really answer to the pressure. They won't answer to diplomacy.
(05:38):
They don't. They won't answer to anything
else. The only answer they will have
is is for real pressure that isolates the Israeli government,
exactly like the apartheid SouthAfrican government.
The two state solution is your father's mission.
It's what he was famous for. What is his vision today, given
(06:00):
the realities? My my father's mission has
always been the Palestinian independence, freedom and living
with dignity. And he's someone who who
supports the two the the political solutions.
He's not attached to the two state.
He is not delusional who understands that the two state
solution is getting killed and murdered by the current Israeli
(06:23):
fascist government. But at the same time, he he's
attached to the objective. And our objective is Palestinian
freedom and living with dignity and Palestinian independence.
And if that's going to happen through, you know, through 2
state, he's going to welcome that.
If that's going to happen through other solutions, he's
open to other solutions. But what he's not open or
(06:46):
flexible about is Palestinian freedom and living with dignity.
I mean, what other solutions could there be?
You know, it's a generational issue if you think about it like
our generation does not believe in the two state because we feel
that it's the magic word that the Western leaders keep giving
to us to hypnotize the Palestinian people into
(07:08):
believing that we will have a solution.
There is the one state there is,you know, I, I don't think that
we, that's the, the main issue. The main issue is to, to agree
on the objective. And the objective is very clear
Palestinian freedom, living withdignity and independence.
And if that's going to be through 2 state and having a
(07:28):
Palestinian independent sovereign state, of course we
welcome that. But if that state going to be
filled with settlers, with settle illegal settlements, with
checkpoints, with military occupation, we don't want that.
OK, well, we'll, we'll come backto the whole question of one
state or two state, but let's talk more about your father,
because for the younger generation, he's been in prison
(07:51):
for all their lives. He's not particularly well
known. So tell us about Marwan
Barghouti, a man who I guess in truth, you don't really know
either very well because he's been in jail most of your life.
Yes, Marwan Baruthi is, is a man, is a Palestinian who grew
up in Palestine. He grew up in the West Bank and
(08:13):
he first encountered the Israelioccupation, what it means at a
very young age. And he went to prison the first
time at the age of 15 after he became an activist, a young
activist. So talking about someone who has
been struggling for Palestinian rights for more than 50 years
now, spent more than 30 years ofhis life in, in prison, seven
years in exile and so on. And yet you would never hear him
(08:36):
talking out of hatred. He's, he's always driven by
purpose and by a clear mission. And his mission.
I, I, I think that the biggest pain that my father is having
right now is the fact that myself and my generation are
living through this and going through this because his dream
was to make us avoid going through this as a generation.
(08:57):
He's, he's a very well educated person.
He has a PhD in political science.
He teaches inside prison. He's graduated hundreds of
Palestinian detainees with theirmasters and bachelor's degrees.
He's a great, loving father, a loyal husband.
And he's always been, you know, very warm.
(09:18):
I've never heard him complainingin my life.
He's always present, positive, looking for a better future.
And right now I know that all hethinks of is what political
initiatives can we take as Palestinians to move forward and
to to stop the suffering of Palestinian children.
If he is a man of peace, then why is he in jail for violence?
(09:40):
Because the Israeli government does not want any Palestinian
leader. There is effective, there is
influential, there is respected by the people.
If you go back throughout history, Palestinian history,
you will find that any effectiveleader gets either killed or or
put in prison. And they already tried to
assassinate him three separate times in the second intifada and
(10:04):
the uprising of the Palestinian people.
He was the face of that uprising.
And for that, they wanted to make an example of him in front
of the Palestinian people and toteach us a lesson that if you
ever, you know, stand against this occupation and oppression,
this is your destiny. You're either going to get
killed or put in prison, which is a classic story.
(10:28):
Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist.
Many other historical leaders were called terrorists.
So this is a colonial word that they used to delegitimize the
right of of the oppressed peopleof self defence.
So can you explain this because a a lot of people have a problem
with this idea that if if he is a man who has advocated peaceful
(10:49):
and political means, he is also a man who supported the second
intifada. So he is not entirely against
struggle, armed struggle. Well, he, he's, he's a big
supporter of political solutions, but he preserves the
right of the Palestinian people of self defence.
The international, according to the international law, the
(11:11):
international law states clearlythat any occupied people have
the right of self defence and that includes armed struggle.
And, you know, we, we have to bevery clear and we have to be
honest about like we're either occupied or we're not occupied.
And it's, it's not even debatable if we're occupied or
(11:32):
not. If, if we're occupied, then we
have the right of self defence again, you know, against the
Israeli occupation according to the international law.
And he supports that, right. He, he took initiatives, you
know, like the prisoner's document, which was a historical
document in 2006. And until today, it's the only
document that is signed on by all Palestinian factions that
(11:53):
state clearly that Palestinian state should be established on
the 67 borders. The targeting of civilians
should be forbidden and the resistance should be limited to
within the 67 borders. That shows you what kind of
leader he is. He's always taking initiatives
to move things forward and to unify the Palestinian people
towards one political vision. And that's exactly what we need.
(12:16):
And it's stated that the, you know, he brought all Palestinian
factions to sign on on that, which is a great initiative to
move forward. But what he he faces in return
the fact that the Israeli government is not interested in
our political solution. They're only interested in
ethnically cleansing the Palestinian people.
The Israeli interior security minister, Ben Gavir, from the
(12:41):
far right, went to taunt your father in prison recently.
What was your reaction? What was your father's reaction
to that? Honestly, I don't know what my
father reaction is because I haven't seen my father in three
years. I haven't been able to to
communicate with him since October 7th.
(13:02):
He's not been visited by any of the family members since then,
and he's only been visited by his lawyer a handful times.
I, I think you know, and, and he's been put in, in solitary
confinement, assaulted 3 separate times and one assault
was very, very brutal to the point where he got physically
injured severely. I, I think that at, at the
(13:26):
beginning, I was shocked becauseit, it's really painful to, to
take minutes until I can recognize that this is my
father. That's the first reaction.
But then I started remembering what my father taught me and the
fact that this is a normal relationship between the
oppressed and the oppressor, between the occupied and the
occupier. And I think that this picture
will go down in history to show the struggle, to show the face
(13:49):
of the current Israeli government in Bangvir and to
show the face of the Palestinianstruggle in a man who looks like
he lost weight, like he's aging and so on.
But yet he stood tall in in the face of oppression like he's
always done. As far as you know, how is he?
After October 7th, my father wasthe head of Alfred Prison where
(14:10):
where he was came to him and he asked him to put his hands
behind his back and to kneel to him in front of other prisoners.
Because, you know, we're used tothat.
We're used to the Israeli mentality of, of making sure
that we understand that they're superior to us.
He refused to do that. So they forced him to do to do
it and he got his shoulder dislocated.
(14:30):
And from there they sent him to solitary confinement.
They he's been in solitary confinement since then and he's
been moving from prison to prison.
They put him in a cell that could barely fit him with no
windows, spotlight in his face, you know, speakers on on the
door of the cell with the Israeli national anthem at the
(14:54):
highest volume to prevent him from sleeping, not giving him
enough food and so on. And he's been assaulted 3 major
times, one in end of 2023, one in March of 24.
And the major one was in September of last year, a year
ago, where three to four prison guards went to his cell.
(15:14):
They dragged him into an area with no, with no camera
surveillance and they started beating him up until he passed
out and he was bleeding and he got injured severely in his
ribs, in his forehead, in his ear.
And he he said to his lawyer, which, you know, he's been
allowed only to see his lawyer for four or five times since
October 7th. He said that that he felt that
(15:36):
this was an assassination attempt.
It wasn't a normal assault like they have been practicing
against Palestinian political prisoners.
This is why everyone needs to take this with sense of urgency.
And This is why we're advocatingand campaigning towards the
British government, the French government, the American
government, everyone to provide them with protection because we
(15:59):
already lost many, many prisoners.
And they need to take it seriously because this is a
respected leader, a parliament member.
He's someone who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace
Prize for his role in, in bringing peace, future peace in
in the future. And he needs to be protected.
(16:20):
Do you think, I know it's difficult if you haven't
communicated with him since October 7th, but do you think he
still sees himself as a political leader for today?
Yes, I, I don't think, you know,as a political leader, you're
always a leader. You don't need positions to, to
be a leader, even though he holds positions as a member of
the Central Committee of Fatah, as a parliament member and so
(16:41):
on. But I think that he's a leader
who's always willing to take steps towards ending the
Palestinian suffering. And I want to be respectful of
the Palestinian people. It's our People's Choice.
We're aspiring to to be a democratic state and we're
looking forward towards that. And it's for the Palestinian
people to choose our leadership because, you know, we haven't
(17:04):
had elections for almost 20 years, for more than 20 years.
And we need that to, to have a trusted leadership that we can
all be behind in in a clear political vision.
And he's someone who's capable of doing that.
Now obviously you know, ending the violence is your first
priority and getting a ceasefire.
(17:27):
The question is what after that and and you've said that your
generation is sceptical of two states talks as a western
constructs. So let's talk about the, you
know, the alternative then. I mean, what do you mean by one
state? I mean, there is a lot of talk
about like a one state solution that is based on equality for
(17:51):
all. And equality for all means,
regardless of your ethnicity, ofyour religion, if you're living
in that state, you're equal. You know, I, I, this is
something that we have to, to discuss internally within the
Palestinian politics. My only point is that whatever
happens to the Palestinian people is for the Palestinian
(18:13):
people to decide. We, we're sick and tired of, of
Western governments coming to usand telling us here is what you
need to do. Here is the Oslaq words, here is
this and that and never holding the Israelis accountable for
violating every single agreementthat we've had before.
I, I think that you know, that the idea of A2 state is of
(18:35):
course welcomed, but it should be clear that it's on the 67
borders, but with full sovereignty, full independence,
full, you know, with self determination and so on.
So we do support political solutions, but they have to be
respected. And the problem with this is
that they are never respected byby the Israelis.
What do you mean by the Palestinian people and do you
(18:57):
include the men with guns? The Palestinian people are all
the Palestinian people. The 1415 million, 7 million in
Palestine and 7 million in the the the diaspora.
We shouldn't forget that Palestinians in the diaspora
where people who got kicked out of their homes literally in
(19:19):
1948, which is a war crime and acrime against humanity, that was
done. And they shouldn't be forgotten
in this. And we need to have that
internal dialogue and internal discussions and decide all
together as Palestinians on whatpolitical vision do we all
support. And for that, we need elections.
We need a political system that is healthy, that includes the
(19:40):
youth, that is inclusive and, you know, has women in power and
so on. We're we're, we're aspiring to
to be that state. But you can't have that
election, can you, before political talks with Israel?
I mean that there isn't time to build a political culture, to
create, to recreate, you know, a, a, a system in which you
(20:02):
could have a proper election given what's happened to the
population. Well, I, I think, you know, the,
the first priority is stopping the genocide.
After we stop the genocide, we can talk about elections and we
can talk about all of that. But I think it's a, it's a
matter of timing. The the timing is, is everything
here. We do need elections because we
want leadership that represents the Palestinian people, that is
(20:26):
very clear about its political vision.
And I think it's very dangerous,the fact that the Israeli
government right now is trying to deliberately to, to make the
PA collapse basically. And this is very dangerous
because the body of the PA is the sole representation right
now on the ground of the Palestinian people.
And yes, we do have corruption issues and we, we do have other
(20:48):
issues in the PA. But the, the international
community should contribute intostrengthening the, the PA to be
the body that is, that will be governing all of Palestine.
But this PA can't be, you know, a, a representation of the
Palestinian people if we can't have elections because we don't
have parliament. We don't have, we haven't had
(21:11):
elections in 20 years. And that's very bad for the
political system. There have been constant
reassurances or assurances that Hamas will not be part of that
negotiation and that they would not be part of any immediate
post war government in in Gaza. But are are the politicians and
the political groupings in Palestine able to guarantee that
(21:39):
Hamas would not be part of that future?
I, I think that, you know, this is something that Hamas has made
very clear that they are willingto do that as a compromise to
make sure that things will move forward and to take away that
excuse from the Israeli government that keeps putting
that as an excuse not to stop their genocide.
(22:00):
And I think that, you know, whatdo they need more than them
saying that we are willing to dothat.
I don't think you need more guarantees than that.
And we, they, they need to, to move forward from there.
We need to be very clear that Hamas has, you know, made every
single compromise needed for, for the ceasefire and has made
it very clear that they're willing to cooperate to make
(22:20):
sure that we can move forward from here.
But the Israeli government is not interested because they're
only interested in the ethnic cleansing and they're using
Hamas and October 7th as an excuse and a golden opportunity
to get that done. But do do you think people who
believe in violence can change and become political figures, or
do you think they need to be removed from the situation?
(22:43):
But I mean, historically speaking, they can change.
And I think that, you know, if you look at the, the problem,
you, you said believe in violence.
If you're living in in Palestine, all you see in your
life is violence. So how can you stop the cycle of
violence as long as the violenceis happening in front of you
every single day? I grew up in the West Bank.
(23:05):
I am the generation that that saw the the Israeli invasion of
the West Bank in 2002. The the soldiers came to to to
our house. I was not allowed for days.
They put the Israeli flag on ourbalcony.
I was not allowed for for days to to go to the kitchen or to
the bathroom, except if I ask for their permission to go.
As a 10 year old, what, what kind of trauma do you think that
(23:27):
that puts in you? And if I talk about these
stories and I tell them now, they sound cute compared to
what's happening in Gaza and thepeople of Gaza.
So before we start asking about believing in violence and the
reaction, let's talk about the action.
Let's talk about the root cause.And the root cause is the
illegal occupation, the apartheid, the ethnic cleansing
and the genocide that we're going through.
(23:50):
And without, you know, my fathersaid that the first day of peace
is the last day of occupation and the occupation, and then
everything will become better. We can't keep, you know, having
these discussions while we're going under all of this.
I mean, talking about how children in Gaza react, are
(24:14):
reacting and will have trauma from what has happened in the
future, it raises the whole question of whether anything
that is negotiated now by today's generation can hold for
a future generation that has lived through this.
I mean, we, we have to go through it.
(24:35):
It's very hard. And it's, you know, we just want
to have our PTSD in, in, in peace.
We never have PTSD because the, the trauma is never posed, as
they say. And we, we want the genocide to
stop so we can, you know, take care of our children and, and
(24:55):
live the, the dream that my father has always dreamed of,
which is Palestinian children living in peace, living in
security, not worrying about ourchildren's life, livelihood for
the future. We have the right to do that.
And he used to always say that we're not as an exception as a
nation. We just want to live a normal
life. We just want to have our
(25:16):
sovereignty, our independence. And we're not an exception.
And we will have that one day. But you know the the question
now is how and when we will havethat?
So can we talk about practical steps?
I mean, as we've said, we, we, we've seen the declarations of
genocide, we've seen the calls for A2 state solution.
(25:38):
We are seeing the recognition ofa Palestinian state, notional
though that is. How do you see the political
steps to bring an end to the killing, first of all, and then
the beginning of a political process when you have a
government in Israel that says there will never be a
Palestinian state, that it has no interest in A2 state solution
(26:00):
and it has no interest in the kinds of things that you're
talking about? I think it it will, it has to be
done on 2 levels. The first level from the
international community. We need the help of the
international community by putting pressure on the Israeli
government. The the reason why they are
saying we don't want a 2 state solution.
We want all the Palestinians out.
They are calling publicly for the ethnic cleansing of the
(26:21):
Palestinian people because they feel that they are above the
law. They feel that they can do
whatever they want. They have been given the green
light and the blank check by theinternational community, by the
Western government to do whatever they want.
They've never faced any real accountability.
But that continues to be the case, doesn't it?
I mean, Trump and Rubio have notchanged their position.
(26:46):
So, you know, can there be progress that the that the rest
of the world delivers? Yes, there, there will be
progress and the progress we cansee it in the hope that we are
seeing in, in the millions of people that are protesting on
daily basis for the Palestinian people.
The shift is happening and we can see the shift.
Yes, it's it's getting worse on the ground, unfortunately, but
(27:09):
the shift is happening and this generation will be the
generation that will be the decision makers of of the future
in in politics and they see what's happening.
The genocide is live in, in their phones and they can't hide
the truth anymore. They can't, you can't go back
from this. And what we're calling for is to
end the cycle of, to help us endthe cycle of violence.
(27:29):
And you asked me about like political steps.
The recognition is, is a step inthe right direction.
But the, the recognition alone will not be enough.
It has to be linked with sanctions, real sanctions on the
Israeli government to make them feel the pressure.
As long as they're as they're not feeling the pressure they
want change, why would they change?
(27:50):
They don't have any motivation to change.
They have all the green light tokeep stealing land and and
terrorizing the Palestinian population.
And the only way to do that is is by sanctioning the the
current Israeli government with real punishment.
And the other thing is that we as Palestinians to worry about
what we can control and what we can control is to unify towards
of a clear political vision thatcan take us forward and and the
(28:15):
the unity of the Palestinian people is the biggest concern
that we should have as Palestinians.
How how vital is the release of your father for the Palestinian
people to be able to have that conversation amongst themselves?
It's essential and not only my father.
I want to be respectful of the other leaders that are behind
bars like Ahmad Sadat and many others.
(28:38):
And I think that my, my father can contribute a lot towards
bringing the Palestinian people together and towards the unity.
And, and you know, you, you saidthat, that the young generation
don't know him. And you're right about that.
If you're 30 years old or under,which is like almost 70% of the
Palestinian population, you, you, you've never seen him
(29:02):
outside of prison, except in videos and so on.
And the reason why he's still the most popular Palestinian
leader is because of his, he is a unifying figure.
He's someone who's willing to sacrifice a lot for the cause.
And that's the kind of leader that we respect as Palestinians.
He's always against corruption. He supports democracy, he
(29:22):
supports political solutions andpreserves the rights of the
Palestinian people of self defence.
And these are this is the combination of of leadership
that we need in in Palestine. And that's why the people
understand his influence and hisimpact once he's released and
even from inside prison, becausehe's done most of of his, his
(29:44):
political, you know, achievements from inside prison
as well. Are you getting any support from
the British government? I mean, things are moving to and
and shifting towards the right direction.
I can't say support because I was expecting more from the
British government and from the Western governments overall when
when the video Bang Veer happened.
(30:06):
Here you have a sanctioned terrorist, convicted terrorist
in Bang Veer taunting and, and threatening A Palestinian leader
inside prison who looks like he he got, you know, starved
inside, inside prison and tortured and so on.
And we didn't see the the reaction that we were looking
for. They should have been appalled
(30:28):
by what what they saw and they should have taken it very
seriously. 76 Palestinian political prisoners have been
killed inside prison since October 7th.
So why wouldn't we think that myfather, my father's life is in
danger and they need to, need totake it very seriously because
he's one, one of the last hopes of, you know, a political
(30:51):
solution that is accepted because he is trusted by the
people and he's someone who is capable of taking the
Palestinian people towards that.Are you, are you able to meet
any of the British government onyour visit?
Have you been invited in? Not yet, but we we will be
having some meetings and we're always in in touch with their
(31:11):
office in Jerusalem and we're, we're hoping that they can take
real steps towards my father's release and all Palestinian
political prisoners release. Arad Barghouti, thank you very
much indeed for joining us today.
That's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine didn't start on
October 7th, but it's in on steroids after October 7th.
We just want to have our PTSD inin in peace.
We never have PTSD because the trauma is never paused.
Let's talk. More about your father.
He's been in jail most of your life.
He's been put in in solitary confinement, assaulted 3
separate times and one assault was very very brutal.
(00:23):
So can we talk about practical steps?
How do you see the political steps to bring an end to the
killing, first of all, and then the beginning of a political
process? Hello, and welcome to the
Forecast. I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and
I'm coming to you from Jerusalem, the King David Hotel,
a historic place here in this city.
(00:45):
And we're bringing you this podcast as the UN Commission has
just found that Israel has been committing genocide.
It's found on a number of frontsand this of course comes on the
back of international scholars and various other organisations
coming to the same conclusion. Now it doesn't have the legal
(01:07):
standing of a court. It is not the Security Council.
It is a body set up for the UN, consisting of eminent legal
minds, but it carries some moralauthority.
My guest today is Arab Barghouti, the son of Marwan
Barghouti, perhaps the most popular Palestinian leader in
(01:32):
this country. He has been in jail for two
decades after refusing to take part in a legal process, a court
he refused to recognise on charges that again,
international bodies have found would not pass any kind of legal
test. He is often regarded as the most
popular leader here, sometimes spoken of as the Palestinian
(01:57):
Mandela and Arab is in London campaigning for his father's
release. Thank you so much for joining
us. Thank you for having me.
Let me begin with the UN International Commission.
They have found that on four outof five fronts, Israel is
committing genocide. What impact do you think that
has? Well, I think that it's a step
(02:20):
into the right direction into calling and labelling it as it
should be, which is a genocide. I don't think that there is any
doubt in in our hearts. We didn't need as Palestinians a
72 page report to tell us that this is a genocide because
destroying the infrastructure, the health system, the education
system and all of that and slaughtering 10s of thousands of
(02:42):
civilians is nothing but a genocide.
And it's it's good for pressuring governments into
changing their policies. But I think that it's been very
clear to us for two years now that it's a genocide.
At the same time, Israel is stepping up its attacks on Gaza
City, saying it is targeting buildings being used by Hamas.
(03:05):
They say Gaza City is burning. What do you think they are
actually doing? They're after the the civilian
population. They want to ethnically cleanse
the Palestinian people and and they are using genocide as a
tool to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian people.
They want to make sure, you know, the towers that they're
talking about are the last few towers that are being lived by
(03:28):
civilians. And they don't want that.
They don't want any Palestinian to stay in, in Gaza.
And I think that, you know, we've been going through this
project for decades now. The ethnic cleansing of
Palestine didn't start on October 7th.
It was maybe slower than this, but it's in on steroids after
October 7th. Because they saw that it's a
(03:49):
golden opportunity with the blank check that they've been
given by the Western governmentsto commit the war crimes and the
crimes against humanity that arethey are committing against the
Palestinian people. And the fact that this report
went on at the same time while the Israeli army and the Israeli
(04:10):
government is, is, you know, committing this offence.
And Gaza tells you everything that you need to know.
They have no limits. They think that they are above
the law and they have the green light to do whatever they want
with the Palestinian people. This comes days after the UN
General Assembly backed the French Saudi statement, the
(04:31):
declaration calling for A2 statesolution, and it comes just
ahead of the likely recognition by Britain, France, Belgium,
Canada and Australia or the Palestinian state.
Do you think any of this international pressure is having
an effect? It does.
It's a step into the right direction.
It's not a game changer. We shouldn't overreact, but also
(04:54):
we shouldn't minimise these efforts.
We we really welcome these efforts.
I think that the Saudi and French initiative is very
important. It protects the diplomatically
the two state solution and the establishment of the Palestinian
state. But unfortunately it does not
change things on the ground. On the ground, things are going
worse by the day. And in order for this to really
(05:18):
have a real impact and influence, it should take the
next step, which is putting realsanctions on the Israeli
government and making sure that the Israeli government pays for
for the what what they're doing.And then only then they will
really answer to the pressure. They won't answer to diplomacy.
(05:38):
They don't. They won't answer to anything
else. The only answer they will have
is is for real pressure that isolates the Israeli government,
exactly like the apartheid SouthAfrican government.
The two state solution is your father's mission.
It's what he was famous for. What is his vision today, given
(06:00):
the realities? My my father's mission has
always been the Palestinian independence, freedom and living
with dignity. And he's someone who who
supports the two the the political solutions.
He's not attached to the two state.
He is not delusional who understands that the two state
solution is getting killed and murdered by the current Israeli
(06:23):
fascist government. But at the same time, he he's
attached to the objective. And our objective is Palestinian
freedom and living with dignity and Palestinian independence.
And if that's going to happen through, you know, through 2
state, he's going to welcome that.
If that's going to happen through other solutions, he's
open to other solutions. But what he's not open or
(06:46):
flexible about is Palestinian freedom and living with dignity.
I mean, what other solutions could there be?
You know, it's a generational issue if you think about it like
our generation does not believe in the two state because we feel
that it's the magic word that the Western leaders keep giving
to us to hypnotize the Palestinian people into
(07:08):
believing that we will have a solution.
There is the one state there is,you know, I, I don't think that
we, that's the, the main issue. The main issue is to, to agree
on the objective. And the objective is very clear
Palestinian freedom, living withdignity and independence.
And if that's going to be through 2 state and having a
(07:28):
Palestinian independent sovereign state, of course we
welcome that. But if that state going to be
filled with settlers, with settle illegal settlements, with
checkpoints, with military occupation, we don't want that.
OK, well, we'll, we'll come backto the whole question of one
state or two state, but let's talk more about your father,
because for the younger generation, he's been in prison
(07:51):
for all their lives. He's not particularly well
known. So tell us about Marwan
Barghouti, a man who I guess in truth, you don't really know
either very well because he's been in jail most of your life.
Yes, Marwan Baruthi is, is a man, is a Palestinian who grew
up in Palestine. He grew up in the West Bank and
(08:13):
he first encountered the Israelioccupation, what it means at a
very young age. And he went to prison the first
time at the age of 15 after he became an activist, a young
activist. So talking about someone who has
been struggling for Palestinian rights for more than 50 years
now, spent more than 30 years ofhis life in, in prison, seven
years in exile and so on. And yet you would never hear him
(08:36):
talking out of hatred. He's, he's always driven by
purpose and by a clear mission. And his mission.
I, I, I think that the biggest pain that my father is having
right now is the fact that myself and my generation are
living through this and going through this because his dream
was to make us avoid going through this as a generation.
(08:57):
He's, he's a very well educated person.
He has a PhD in political science.
He teaches inside prison. He's graduated hundreds of
Palestinian detainees with theirmasters and bachelor's degrees.
He's a great, loving father, a loyal husband.
And he's always been, you know, very warm.
(09:18):
I've never heard him complainingin my life.
He's always present, positive, looking for a better future.
And right now I know that all hethinks of is what political
initiatives can we take as Palestinians to move forward and
to to stop the suffering of Palestinian children.
If he is a man of peace, then why is he in jail for violence?
(09:40):
Because the Israeli government does not want any Palestinian
leader. There is effective, there is
influential, there is respected by the people.
If you go back throughout history, Palestinian history,
you will find that any effectiveleader gets either killed or or
put in prison. And they already tried to
assassinate him three separate times in the second intifada and
(10:04):
the uprising of the Palestinian people.
He was the face of that uprising.
And for that, they wanted to make an example of him in front
of the Palestinian people and toteach us a lesson that if you
ever, you know, stand against this occupation and oppression,
this is your destiny. You're either going to get
killed or put in prison, which is a classic story.
(10:28):
Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist.
Many other historical leaders were called terrorists.
So this is a colonial word that they used to delegitimize the
right of of the oppressed peopleof self defence.
So can you explain this because a a lot of people have a problem
with this idea that if if he is a man who has advocated peaceful
(10:49):
and political means, he is also a man who supported the second
intifada. So he is not entirely against
struggle, armed struggle. Well, he, he's, he's a big
supporter of political solutions, but he preserves the
right of the Palestinian people of self defence.
The international, according to the international law, the
(11:11):
international law states clearlythat any occupied people have
the right of self defence and that includes armed struggle.
And, you know, we, we have to bevery clear and we have to be
honest about like we're either occupied or we're not occupied.
And it's, it's not even debatable if we're occupied or
(11:32):
not. If, if we're occupied, then we
have the right of self defence again, you know, against the
Israeli occupation according to the international law.
And he supports that, right. He, he took initiatives, you
know, like the prisoner's document, which was a historical
document in 2006. And until today, it's the only
document that is signed on by all Palestinian factions that
(11:53):
state clearly that Palestinian state should be established on
the 67 borders. The targeting of civilians
should be forbidden and the resistance should be limited to
within the 67 borders. That shows you what kind of
leader he is. He's always taking initiatives
to move things forward and to unify the Palestinian people
towards one political vision. And that's exactly what we need.
(12:16):
And it's stated that the, you know, he brought all Palestinian
factions to sign on on that, which is a great initiative to
move forward. But what he he faces in return
the fact that the Israeli government is not interested in
our political solution. They're only interested in
ethnically cleansing the Palestinian people.
The Israeli interior security minister, Ben Gavir, from the
(12:41):
far right, went to taunt your father in prison recently.
What was your reaction? What was your father's reaction
to that? Honestly, I don't know what my
father reaction is because I haven't seen my father in three
years. I haven't been able to to
communicate with him since October 7th.
(13:02):
He's not been visited by any of the family members since then,
and he's only been visited by his lawyer a handful times.
I, I think you know, and, and he's been put in, in solitary
confinement, assaulted 3 separate times and one assault
was very, very brutal to the point where he got physically
injured severely. I, I think that at, at the
(13:26):
beginning, I was shocked becauseit, it's really painful to, to
take minutes until I can recognize that this is my
father. That's the first reaction.
But then I started remembering what my father taught me and the
fact that this is a normal relationship between the
oppressed and the oppressor, between the occupied and the
occupier. And I think that this picture
will go down in history to show the struggle, to show the face
(13:49):
of the current Israeli government in Bangvir and to
show the face of the Palestinianstruggle in a man who looks like
he lost weight, like he's aging and so on.
But yet he stood tall in in the face of oppression like he's
always done. As far as you know, how is he?
After October 7th, my father wasthe head of Alfred Prison where
(14:10):
where he was came to him and he asked him to put his hands
behind his back and to kneel to him in front of other prisoners.
Because, you know, we're used tothat.
We're used to the Israeli mentality of, of making sure
that we understand that they're superior to us.
He refused to do that. So they forced him to do to do
it and he got his shoulder dislocated.
(14:30):
And from there they sent him to solitary confinement.
They he's been in solitary confinement since then and he's
been moving from prison to prison.
They put him in a cell that could barely fit him with no
windows, spotlight in his face, you know, speakers on on the
door of the cell with the Israeli national anthem at the
(14:54):
highest volume to prevent him from sleeping, not giving him
enough food and so on. And he's been assaulted 3 major
times, one in end of 2023, one in March of 24.
And the major one was in September of last year, a year
ago, where three to four prison guards went to his cell.
(15:14):
They dragged him into an area with no, with no camera
surveillance and they started beating him up until he passed
out and he was bleeding and he got injured severely in his
ribs, in his forehead, in his ear.
And he he said to his lawyer, which, you know, he's been
allowed only to see his lawyer for four or five times since
October 7th. He said that that he felt that
(15:36):
this was an assassination attempt.
It wasn't a normal assault like they have been practicing
against Palestinian political prisoners.
This is why everyone needs to take this with sense of urgency.
And This is why we're advocatingand campaigning towards the
British government, the French government, the American
government, everyone to provide them with protection because we
(15:59):
already lost many, many prisoners.
And they need to take it seriously because this is a
respected leader, a parliament member.
He's someone who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace
Prize for his role in, in bringing peace, future peace in
in the future. And he needs to be protected.
(16:20):
Do you think, I know it's difficult if you haven't
communicated with him since October 7th, but do you think he
still sees himself as a political leader for today?
Yes, I, I don't think, you know,as a political leader, you're
always a leader. You don't need positions to, to
be a leader, even though he holds positions as a member of
the Central Committee of Fatah, as a parliament member and so
(16:41):
on. But I think that he's a leader
who's always willing to take steps towards ending the
Palestinian suffering. And I want to be respectful of
the Palestinian people. It's our People's Choice.
We're aspiring to to be a democratic state and we're
looking forward towards that. And it's for the Palestinian
people to choose our leadership because, you know, we haven't
(17:04):
had elections for almost 20 years, for more than 20 years.
And we need that to, to have a trusted leadership that we can
all be behind in in a clear political vision.
And he's someone who's capable of doing that.
Now obviously you know, ending the violence is your first
priority and getting a ceasefire.
(17:27):
The question is what after that and and you've said that your
generation is sceptical of two states talks as a western
constructs. So let's talk about the, you
know, the alternative then. I mean, what do you mean by one
state? I mean, there is a lot of talk
about like a one state solution that is based on equality for
(17:51):
all. And equality for all means,
regardless of your ethnicity, ofyour religion, if you're living
in that state, you're equal. You know, I, I, this is
something that we have to, to discuss internally within the
Palestinian politics. My only point is that whatever
happens to the Palestinian people is for the Palestinian
(18:13):
people to decide. We, we're sick and tired of, of
Western governments coming to usand telling us here is what you
need to do. Here is the Oslaq words, here is
this and that and never holding the Israelis accountable for
violating every single agreementthat we've had before.
I, I think that you know, that the idea of A2 state is of
(18:35):
course welcomed, but it should be clear that it's on the 67
borders, but with full sovereignty, full independence,
full, you know, with self determination and so on.
So we do support political solutions, but they have to be
respected. And the problem with this is
that they are never respected byby the Israelis.
What do you mean by the Palestinian people and do you
(18:57):
include the men with guns? The Palestinian people are all
the Palestinian people. The 1415 million, 7 million in
Palestine and 7 million in the the the diaspora.
We shouldn't forget that Palestinians in the diaspora
where people who got kicked out of their homes literally in
(19:19):
1948, which is a war crime and acrime against humanity, that was
done. And they shouldn't be forgotten
in this. And we need to have that
internal dialogue and internal discussions and decide all
together as Palestinians on whatpolitical vision do we all
support. And for that, we need elections.
We need a political system that is healthy, that includes the
(19:40):
youth, that is inclusive and, you know, has women in power and
so on. We're we're, we're aspiring to
to be that state. But you can't have that
election, can you, before political talks with Israel?
I mean that there isn't time to build a political culture, to
create, to recreate, you know, a, a, a system in which you
(20:02):
could have a proper election given what's happened to the
population. Well, I, I think, you know, the,
the first priority is stopping the genocide.
After we stop the genocide, we can talk about elections and we
can talk about all of that. But I think it's a, it's a
matter of timing. The the timing is, is everything
here. We do need elections because we
want leadership that represents the Palestinian people, that is
(20:26):
very clear about its political vision.
And I think it's very dangerous,the fact that the Israeli
government right now is trying to deliberately to, to make the
PA collapse basically. And this is very dangerous
because the body of the PA is the sole representation right
now on the ground of the Palestinian people.
And yes, we do have corruption issues and we, we do have other
(20:48):
issues in the PA. But the, the international
community should contribute intostrengthening the, the PA to be
the body that is, that will be governing all of Palestine.
But this PA can't be, you know, a, a representation of the
Palestinian people if we can't have elections because we don't
have parliament. We don't have, we haven't had
(21:11):
elections in 20 years. And that's very bad for the
political system. There have been constant
reassurances or assurances that Hamas will not be part of that
negotiation and that they would not be part of any immediate
post war government in in Gaza. But are are the politicians and
the political groupings in Palestine able to guarantee that
(21:39):
Hamas would not be part of that future?
I, I think that, you know, this is something that Hamas has made
very clear that they are willingto do that as a compromise to
make sure that things will move forward and to take away that
excuse from the Israeli government that keeps putting
that as an excuse not to stop their genocide.
(22:00):
And I think that, you know, whatdo they need more than them
saying that we are willing to dothat.
I don't think you need more guarantees than that.
And we, they, they need to, to move forward from there.
We need to be very clear that Hamas has, you know, made every
single compromise needed for, for the ceasefire and has made
it very clear that they're willing to cooperate to make
(22:20):
sure that we can move forward from here.
But the Israeli government is not interested because they're
only interested in the ethnic cleansing and they're using
Hamas and October 7th as an excuse and a golden opportunity
to get that done. But do do you think people who
believe in violence can change and become political figures, or
do you think they need to be removed from the situation?
(22:43):
But I mean, historically speaking, they can change.
And I think that, you know, if you look at the, the problem,
you, you said believe in violence.
If you're living in in Palestine, all you see in your
life is violence. So how can you stop the cycle of
violence as long as the violenceis happening in front of you
every single day? I grew up in the West Bank.
(23:05):
I am the generation that that saw the the Israeli invasion of
the West Bank in 2002. The the soldiers came to to to
our house. I was not allowed for days.
They put the Israeli flag on ourbalcony.
I was not allowed for for days to to go to the kitchen or to
the bathroom, except if I ask for their permission to go.
As a 10 year old, what, what kind of trauma do you think that
(23:27):
that puts in you? And if I talk about these
stories and I tell them now, they sound cute compared to
what's happening in Gaza and thepeople of Gaza.
So before we start asking about believing in violence and the
reaction, let's talk about the action.
Let's talk about the root cause.And the root cause is the
illegal occupation, the apartheid, the ethnic cleansing
and the genocide that we're going through.
(23:50):
And without, you know, my fathersaid that the first day of peace
is the last day of occupation and the occupation, and then
everything will become better. We can't keep, you know, having
these discussions while we're going under all of this.
I mean, talking about how children in Gaza react, are
(24:14):
reacting and will have trauma from what has happened in the
future, it raises the whole question of whether anything
that is negotiated now by today's generation can hold for
a future generation that has lived through this.
I mean, we, we have to go through it.
(24:35):
It's very hard. And it's, you know, we just want
to have our PTSD in, in, in peace.
We never have PTSD because the, the trauma is never posed, as
they say. And we, we want the genocide to
stop so we can, you know, take care of our children and, and
(24:55):
live the, the dream that my father has always dreamed of,
which is Palestinian children living in peace, living in
security, not worrying about ourchildren's life, livelihood for
the future. We have the right to do that.
And he used to always say that we're not as an exception as a
nation. We just want to live a normal
life. We just want to have our
(25:16):
sovereignty, our independence. And we're not an exception.
And we will have that one day. But you know the the question
now is how and when we will havethat?
So can we talk about practical steps?
I mean, as we've said, we, we, we've seen the declarations of
genocide, we've seen the calls for A2 state solution.
(25:38):
We are seeing the recognition ofa Palestinian state, notional
though that is. How do you see the political
steps to bring an end to the killing, first of all, and then
the beginning of a political process when you have a
government in Israel that says there will never be a
Palestinian state, that it has no interest in A2 state solution
(26:00):
and it has no interest in the kinds of things that you're
talking about? I think it it will, it has to be
done on 2 levels. The first level from the
international community. We need the help of the
international community by putting pressure on the Israeli
government. The the reason why they are
saying we don't want a 2 state solution.
We want all the Palestinians out.
They are calling publicly for the ethnic cleansing of the
(26:21):
Palestinian people because they feel that they are above the
law. They feel that they can do
whatever they want. They have been given the green
light and the blank check by theinternational community, by the
Western government to do whatever they want.
They've never faced any real accountability.
But that continues to be the case, doesn't it?
I mean, Trump and Rubio have notchanged their position.
(26:46):
So, you know, can there be progress that the that the rest
of the world delivers? Yes, there, there will be
progress and the progress we cansee it in the hope that we are
seeing in, in the millions of people that are protesting on
daily basis for the Palestinian people.
The shift is happening and we can see the shift.
Yes, it's it's getting worse on the ground, unfortunately, but
(27:09):
the shift is happening and this generation will be the
generation that will be the decision makers of of the future
in in politics and they see what's happening.
The genocide is live in, in their phones and they can't hide
the truth anymore. They can't, you can't go back
from this. And what we're calling for is to
end the cycle of, to help us endthe cycle of violence.
(27:29):
And you asked me about like political steps.
The recognition is, is a step inthe right direction.
But the, the recognition alone will not be enough.
It has to be linked with sanctions, real sanctions on the
Israeli government to make them feel the pressure.
As long as they're as they're not feeling the pressure they
want change, why would they change?
(27:50):
They don't have any motivation to change.
They have all the green light tokeep stealing land and and
terrorizing the Palestinian population.
And the only way to do that is is by sanctioning the the
current Israeli government with real punishment.
And the other thing is that we as Palestinians to worry about
what we can control and what we can control is to unify towards
of a clear political vision thatcan take us forward and and the
(28:15):
the unity of the Palestinian people is the biggest concern
that we should have as Palestinians.
How how vital is the release of your father for the Palestinian
people to be able to have that conversation amongst themselves?
It's essential and not only my father.
I want to be respectful of the other leaders that are behind
bars like Ahmad Sadat and many others.
(28:38):
And I think that my, my father can contribute a lot towards
bringing the Palestinian people together and towards the unity.
And, and you know, you, you saidthat, that the young generation
don't know him. And you're right about that.
If you're 30 years old or under,which is like almost 70% of the
Palestinian population, you, you, you've never seen him
(29:02):
outside of prison, except in videos and so on.
And the reason why he's still the most popular Palestinian
leader is because of his, he is a unifying figure.
He's someone who's willing to sacrifice a lot for the cause.
And that's the kind of leader that we respect as Palestinians.
He's always against corruption. He supports democracy, he
(29:22):
supports political solutions andpreserves the rights of the
Palestinian people of self defence.
And these are this is the combination of of leadership
that we need in in Palestine. And that's why the people
understand his influence and hisimpact once he's released and
even from inside prison, becausehe's done most of of his, his
(29:44):
political, you know, achievements from inside prison
as well. Are you getting any support from
the British government? I mean, things are moving to and
and shifting towards the right direction.
I can't say support because I was expecting more from the
British government and from the Western governments overall when
when the video Bang Veer happened.
(30:06):
Here you have a sanctioned terrorist, convicted terrorist
in Bang Veer taunting and, and threatening A Palestinian leader
inside prison who looks like he he got, you know, starved
inside, inside prison and tortured and so on.
And we didn't see the the reaction that we were looking
for. They should have been appalled
(30:28):
by what what they saw and they should have taken it very
seriously. 76 Palestinian political prisoners have been
killed inside prison since October 7th.
So why wouldn't we think that myfather, my father's life is in
danger and they need to, need totake it very seriously because
he's one, one of the last hopes of, you know, a political
(30:51):
solution that is accepted because he is trusted by the
people and he's someone who is capable of taking the
Palestinian people towards that.Are you, are you able to meet
any of the British government onyour visit?
Have you been invited in? Not yet, but we we will be
having some meetings and we're always in in touch with their
(31:11):
office in Jerusalem and we're, we're hoping that they can take
real steps towards my father's release and all Palestinian
political prisoners release. Arad Barghouti, thank you very
much indeed for joining us today.
That's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.