July 28, 2025 • 32 mins
A year ago, towns across Britain were in flames as far-right anti-immigration protests turned into riots, while this week the Police Federation called recent protests in Epping a 'signal flare’ for further unrest.
So with the number of migrants crossing the Channel in small boats actually up and social media - not to mention certain MPs - pumping out inflammatory comments, is another summer flare-up inevitable?
And how do the police , the politicians and the protesters themselves distinguish between the genuine concerns of dispossessed communities, and the gratuitous violence of far-right racists?
On this episode of The Fourcast, Jackie Long is joined by Sunder Katwala, director of the think-tank British Future which focuses on diversity and social inclusion, the academic Lisa McKenzie, who writes primarily about working-class communities and class inequality, and Adam Kelwick, imam of the UK's oldest mosque in Liverpool who came to prominence during last year's riots with his attempts at dialogue with protesters.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's hard not to think the UK ison fire.
There's anger everywhere. Is it?
People are extremely angry. A dangerous level of anger in
your view? Yeah, seething with anger.
None of the conditions of what happened last summer have gone
away. Violence might not happen, but
the absence of riots shouldn't be anybody's test for cohesion
(00:20):
in our country. Sometimes all we need to do is
sit down with these people, meeteach other, and you'll discover
that the other side aren't necessarily the monsters which
you think they are. Hello and welcome to the
forecast Are anti migrant protests around the country
about to explode into another summer of riots?
(00:40):
A year ago, towns across Britainwere in flames as anti
immigration protests turned violent.
They were prompted by the mass stabbing of girls as a dance
class in Southport, but fuelled by online misinformation and
anti Muslim rhetoric. It was the largest instance of
social unrest in England for more than a decade and there are
fears that this summer could seea repeat.
(01:01):
Already there's been a string ofprotests around hotels housing
asylum seekers, the Police Federation called recent unrest
in Epping a signal flare. So with the number of migrants
crossing the Channel in small boats actually up, and social
media, not to mention certain MPs pumping out inflammatory
comments, is a summer marked by more violence inevitable?
(01:23):
And how did the police, the politicians and the protesters
them styles distinguish between the genuine concerns of
dispossessed communities and thegratuitous violence of racists
and the far right? To discuss this I'm joined by
the academic doctor Lisa McKenzie, who writes primarily
about working class communities and class inequality.
Sundar Katwala, the director of the think tank British Future,
(01:44):
which focuses on diversity and social inclusion, and Adam
Kelwick, imam of EU KS oldest mosque in Liverpool, who came to
prominence during last year's riots with his attempts at
dialogue with protesters. Thank you, all of you, for
joining us today. Can I begin by asking you, if
you look at what we've been looking at, at Epping in other
places across the country, it's hard not to think the UK is on
(02:06):
fire. There's anger everywhere, Is it?
Yeah, I think there is. I'll be honest, I'm not sure
that we're in for a summer of riots.
I'm not sure about that. But I do know that there's been
a growing anger that is inescapable.
You know what isn't inescapable for me?
Because I live in a working class community.
(02:28):
I work in working class communities and people are
extremely angry. But it's a number of things.
It's not just one thing, it's lots of things.
It's things not working properly.
It's the cost of living crisis. You know, everybody's
complaining that every that foodis going up day by day.
And then of course, you know, there's this constant news cycle
(02:53):
about people coming in from different countries, you know,
are they getting this or are they getting that?
And there is a drip feed going on.
So people are extremely angry. A dangerous level of anger in
your view? Yeah, I, I would, I would say
ordinary people that that a few years ago didn't even know any
(03:13):
of this existed are now talking about it.
And people who a few years ago did know it existed are now
seething with anger. So yeah, I I would say that this
is where we are. Senator Cutwaller, I'm in a
country, or at least parts of it, seething with anger.
I think riots and violence certainly aren't inevitable, but
they're but they're possible. I think we need vigilance
(03:35):
without alarmism. That can be a difficult balance
to strike. None of the conditions of what
happened last summer have gone away in terms of the tinderbox
on social media, if there is a shocking event, if there were
rumours of something that's happened in terms of the long
term underlying causes. So we we haven't dealt with the
(03:56):
long term causes, we haven't dealt with some of the sharp
short term pressures. But you know, violence might not
happen. But the absence of riots
shouldn't be anybody's test for cohesion in our country.
You were in the middle of the actual violence and rioting of
last year. Where do you think we are right
now? So I I like to always be
optimistic, but at the same timethat has to be balanced with
(04:18):
some realism. And unfortunately, all the
ingredients which were there last year are also still here
this year. I think you know, the, the, the
firewood, which are these small numbers of these very
ideologically driven people, whether that's racism, anti
(04:40):
immigrant hatred, anti Muslim hatred, they are there.
The fuel is continuously being poured maybe even more intensely
now than last year by the media,whether that's the mainstream
media or whether it's online channels and accounts.
And unfortunately, if there was to be a spark, I think there is
a very real danger that we couldfind ourselves in a similar
(05:02):
situation to last year. OK.
You both touch on this idea of the ingredients are there.
I don't know whether you agree about what those ingredients
are. I'm assuming you'd say they're
not ideologically driven. Not well.
There are ideologically driven people who are making hay out of
these situations. Of course there are on the far
right and on the left as well. That is happening.
(05:24):
But then there are other ingredients.
You know, there is 40 years of deindustrialisation and no
economic strategy that's gonna lift the bottom up.
There's poverty, there's feelings of hopelessness.
You know, we've had 40 years of,of, of inequality widening and
hopelessness. So don't you know, we shouldn't
(05:45):
be not expecting. We've got hopeless people, you
know, people who look out in their future and don't see
anything good happening. But it ties to this very big
question, doesn't it, about whatare legitimate concerns and what
are legitimate ways of expressing them.
I, I do find myself in, in, in agreement with you because as I
said, there are a small number of these people who are pushing
(06:07):
certain ideologies and narratives.
But what happens is the vast majority of people who are
dragged into these protests and these riots are, in my
experience, because I've been working a lot with people who
attended the riots last year. I've been building real
friendships with them. And I've found that actually the
vast majority of the number of people who attend these riots
(06:29):
and protests aren't necessarily the types who are driven by the
ideologies. They're dragged into other
people's narratives. And in fact, they're just
genuine people who have genuine concerns.
And they are worried about society.
They are worried about their children.
They have lots of worries who weincidentally, as a Muslim
community also share with those concerns with.
Them when so much of that sorry with so much of those legitimate
(06:52):
concerns that you both talked about seemed throughout the
riots last time we look at the the hotel issue directed at
immigrants directed at migrants.I think it's right to have the
concept of legitimate concerns. There are people who mock that
and say it's always dog whistling or it's always
pandering prejudice. But I think we forget something,
which is the very concept of legitimate concerns involves a
(07:16):
differentiation between the legitimate and the illegitimate.
And that is partly about the means, which is it's peaceful
voice and your right to voice, and it's not violence,
intimidation and threat. And it's partly about what
you're saying as well. So if you're saying send them
all back or extend that we don'tjust want the asylum seekers
out, we want all the minorities,all the Muslims, you know,
(07:37):
everybody out to them, that's illegitimate.
And I think if you're defending the legitimate concerns, you
also have to be drawing the lineas to what you're not admitting.
So there are people and they they were successful in
Rotherham and they were successful in Ballymena and
they're who they were hoping to be successful in Epping, who are
not saying let's get the councilto petition the government to
(07:58):
change the policy on the hotels.They're saying let's make it so
dangerous that people flee. I mean, let's make the
government the new. People no, it, no, it is.
And I think what we've got, we've come to this point where
when people say there's legitimate concerns, you've got
a whole group of I mean, they'recalling them the lanyard class
now or, you know, the the middleclass left or the, you know, I
(08:21):
call them the bourgeois left whoare now sort of, you know,
they're not allowing people to have legitimate concerns when
you say legitimate concerns, like it's almost like you're
Enoch Powell. You know, so we, we've closed
down that whole Ave. of debate and I'll tell you now that point
of, you know, where perhaps fiveyears ago people were saying,
(08:43):
you know, perhaps illegal migration needs to be, you know,
looked at now they are saying send everybody back.
I think because there's a lack of trust with our government,
with politicians, with the media, they're they're actually
gonna deal with these legitimateconcerns.
So instead, you know, everybody's being 40, not power,
I think. There's a problem with the
concept. Actually, it's a very distancing
(09:04):
concept, which is. I do not share your legitimate
concerns, but I respect them. It does feel quite it does.
Feel quite. Far apart, but actually, you
know, this government is very clear that it's that it's, it's
so concerned in a way to not criticise people's right to
protest asylum, hotels and so onthat it risks actually not doing
(09:24):
the other half of the argument, which is to say there's also
racism and prejudice as part of this.
And we need to make that separation because we're going
to listen to the mainstream argument, but we're not
actually. But how do you make that
distinct that? I think ultimately if you look
back to last year and how intense it was, a lot of people
have forgotten with time, but itwas very, very intense.
(09:45):
It wasn't just intense for the immigration centres and the
mosques which were targeted, butit was also intense for
everybody in society. We saw our city centres smashed
up, we saw children's services, libraries smashed up, we saw
lots of towns in absolute chaos and that affects everybody and I
don't think anybody in society wants to go back to where we.
(10:07):
Were but that is actually what happens when people riot that I
mean, that's that that's also the normal shape of a riot that
people do smash up their own communities.
There's a criminological conceptfor this.
It's called slow rioting. It's what happens when the state
has removed themselves from yourcommunity and you, you can't get
(10:27):
at the people or the state that's causing new problems.
I mean, we were there for you. And what what Lisa, I think is
rightly saying is that is that that broader oxygen, not the
violence itself, but the broaderoxygen is, is based on people
feeling unheard. If you want to make that
distinction, there are actually some really important ways to do
it. 1 is, is it peaceful? Is it violent?
(10:49):
Is it threatening? Another really good test I think
in the society we're in now is if you've got legitimate
concerns, could somebody white, working class, somebody Asian,
somebody back share those concerns?
Or are they the concerns only ofone but?
Can I just ask you, you as someone you know you're in a
mosque when the rioters headed towards you, are you ever in
that moment thinking any of these concerns are legitimate?
(11:11):
So what I found on the night of the riots when people were
outside our mosque is when I stepped over the police lines
after we confirmed with the police that it was safe to do
so, and I started speaking with the protesters.
More important than speaking to them was listening to them.
Then people did share some of their concerns with me.
(11:32):
A lot of those concerns were based on on ignorance and, and
and falsehoods. However I was listening.
I'll, I'll give you one example,one gentleman, probably the
loudest person at the protest. I asked him, why exactly are you
here at our mosque? You know, what's this got to do
with anything? He said we're fed up with two
tier policing. To which I said to him, well,
why not take the protest to the police station then?
(11:54):
You know, what does this have todo with us?
But the point is, I think there is an argument for saying that
many members of the white British working class people
need to be heard. I don't think their voices are
represented. And this, this is an issue.
I think they're not represented or very rarely represented
properly within politics. And I don't think the
(12:16):
politicians are listening to them.
And unfortunately me and my mosque and my community have to
put up with these protests and these riots when actually what
they are upset with are decisions which are ultimately.
But if you're burning down or trying to burn down a hotel
that's got asylum seekers and can there ever be anything other
than racist? No, I mean, I'm going to be
honest. No, I mean it can also, but you
(12:39):
know, it can also be not a racist intent, but then it it
does become but. We're targeting asylum people in
a hotel. It's just racist, isn't it?
Yes, it yes it is. But, you know, I have spoken to
people that have that have been around, sort of have been
thinking about doing this sort of thing.
(12:59):
And again, are they trying to kill the people inside or are
they trying to get rid of the problem?
And I think sometimes when when we've moved over that step of
reasonableness and an argument and debate and we've moved into
that step of civil disorder and riot, you know, things are not
always as clear. And Adam is absolutely right.
(13:22):
The Muslim community last year had to deal with the fact that
that there is no there's very little representation for all
poor working class. People but but if they are
targeting you, you, you take a very generous view.
Some people might say, some of the Muslim communities that I've
spoken to would not take such a generous view that if a mob is
(13:45):
headed towards you to try and throw stones or or or damage
your mosque shouting things thatare really offensive that are
out and out racist, then that does that delegitimize anything
that you may have started with the intent that you talked
about? I mean, yes, I mean, of course
it it does delegitimize it because you what you've done it.
(14:07):
Also puts people at danger. You put people.
In danger, I mean. Well, I am a white working class
woman. I wasn't.
I wasn't called white and working class until about 2000.
That was always working class and that is where that's where
you know, where the problem is. About 20 to five years ago, you
(14:28):
know, we decided that there weredivisions between working class
people and you know, and we've done that through box ticking
and through. And so I don't want to be white
and working class. I want to be working class and I
want all working class people. But the very distinction does
suit some people who don't want black or brown people within the
(14:50):
you who don't consider them the same.
Yes, and that's on and that's onmany different levels.
You know, I'm, I'm with Adam really I, I'd like to, you know,
for us all to come together, allworking class people.
And this is a class issue about inequality.
It's under coming. I think we've got to make some
distinctions here. They're very different
experiences of change in our society.
(15:11):
I've had a positive experience of change in my society in my
lifetime because I'm the child of migrants.
I did well in education. If you're, you know, there are
lots of people, first, second generation British minorities,
women in workplaces, people who are gay who have had a positive
experience of change, they're very much more negative
experience of change between thecities and the townspeople feel
(15:34):
unheard in the townspeople feel unheard from working class
backgrounds. People who haven't, you know,
got many degrees feel, feel unheard.
That is very different from the people who are trying to get all
the Muslims and all the asylum seekers out there.
About one in 50 people in our country were elated by the
violence, not because they fear a civil war, but because they're
(15:56):
rather hoping for one. So I think, I think policing and
telling that group what is unacceptable and then cutting
them off from maybe 1/4 of society, 1/3 of society, 40% of
society. They've got things to say in the
political system about immigration, asylum,
integration. That's a crucial distinction to
make. Otherwise, this language about
legitimate concerns doesn't cut out the racism, the violence,
(16:17):
the. Threat.
So, so, so in, in Liverpool we actually saw a manifestation of
what what you've just described when it was the LFC parade
through the city centre, there was somebody who rammed into a
crowd full of people. I was actually at the parade, I
left before the incident itself and I was looking online because
unfortunately, because of the way things work, people will go
(16:40):
straight to X before they go to any legitimate or kind of
credible source of information. And they'll see they want to
know right then, right now what's happening as happened in
Southport. And what I was seeing was
unfortunately, people who were not bothered at all about the
the people who were injured in the attack all they wanted.
(17:03):
And it's like they were desperate for the driver of the
car to be either an immigrant oran asylum seeker or a Muslim.
And when it when it occurred later on that he wasn't, it was
almost as if they were disappointed because they
couldn't push for this narrativeto be enforced and and this this
racist agenda, if you like. Yeah.
(17:24):
I mean, what I, I'd also say is you're sort of talking about the
police or the government tellingsomebody, you know, that this is
unacceptable, but who is tellingthe police and who is telling
the government that what they are doing is unacceptable as
well? Because I think that's where
we've got a problem, is this idea that, you know, some people
are legitimately telling us what's acceptable and what isn't
(17:47):
and yet nobody is holding the people to account that's making
the decisions that is causing these divisions, the hotels
since. They can.
Stand back, I think. They can look at people
protesting and fighting outside asylum seeker hotels and say
this is nothing to do. With us and they can put lots of
memes about poor white working class people all over social
(18:09):
media. You know, there, there.
I, I remember last year at Southport, I remember people
laughing openly, taking photographs of, of the
television and saying, look at the state of these people's
teeth. You know, that is what happens
when there are no dentists. That's what happens when
people's health has deterioratedover generations.
(18:29):
They look ill. But the difficulty?
Is something positive about whatthe police were doing in Epping,
which became the epicentre? There was a, you know, a sexual
assault, a charge or a serious sexual assault.
There was protests, there was concern.
They did a really good job, I think, of saying what you were
allowed to do if you're a anti hotel protester, if you're a
(18:50):
left wing protester and what youweren't allowed to do.
And they said no one's going to wear any, no one's going to have
face masks on when they're making their points.
If you do that, then you can be tough on disorder, but that's
different from being tough on the causes.
But in, in, in a way, the hotelsand the issue about the safety
of women and children, which is what some people are saying this
(19:10):
is about it. It's quite interesting, isn't
it? You know, it's being framed as,
as you wrote yourself, you know hundreds of unknown unvetted
single men being housed in theircommunities.
I suppose women and girls are surrounded by unvetted unknown
men. We know the dangers that men
pose to women. Is it legitimate to target one
(19:34):
particular group of men in an asylum seekers hotel?
I think now, I think that now ithas become legitimate because,
you know, for many, many years people have been complaining
about the government's dispersalprogramme.
It's been going, this has been happening in a long time, you
know, refugees and asylum seekers who are poor themselves
(20:00):
and are coming from all over theworld with different
backgrounds. They've been put into the
poorest communities now for at least 25 years.
I mean. That is the fact that.
There are. More asylum seekers and refugees
dispersed to poorer parts. Yeah, and I've made this all.
I mean, it's only very recently that different governments have
decided to put more resources into those areas.
(20:22):
At one point, there was no extraresources and the whole
community had to share the little that they got.
That was legitimate concern. But the but to the to the very
specific point about we know thedanger that men pose to to women
and girls. You know, Wayne Cousins was was
vetted and was given enough authority to have a police
(20:43):
uniform to go out and and and and kill and rape.
Is it legitimate in say in your,in your view, Adam, to use that
to focus it in as the reason forwhat is happening around the
hotels? Is it a legitimate concern or is
it being used as? I think the big mistake where
(21:05):
we're all making here is we're referring to groups of people
and we're stripping them of their humanity.
And I think all sides are guiltyby the way we're stripping them
of their humanity. So whether that's the white
British working class or whetherthat's the far right or whether
that's asylum seekers, don't forget there are real people
behind these groups which we have in our in our heads.
(21:27):
And sometimes all we need to do is sit down with these people,
meet each other, learn about each other, and you'll discover
that the other side aren't necessarily the monsters which
you think they are. And as I said, and this applies
to all sides, because on the night of the riots in Liverpool,
many people in the Muslim community were saying to me, no,
why are you cooking food for these people?
You can't speak to these people.They want to kill you.
(21:49):
They want to burn your Moss downand they want to send all
Muslims out of the country. And I was like, no, they're,
they're, they're people. And if we're from a religious or
a spiritual perspective, we haveto see the other as a soul.
And what I have been doing sincelast year's riots is I've been
sitting down building friendships with some of the
heavyweights who were at the Save Our Children protest, for
(22:11):
example. And I've been allowing them to
see who I and my community are as people.
And likewise we've been meeting with them.
We've been taking young people to gyms who are running
different parts of the city where they'd never usually be.
We've been on walks into the Welsh countryside together.
And guess what? Everybody realizes that they're
human beings. We have families who we care
(22:32):
for. We all suffer from the cost of
living crisis. We all get bills from the tax
man which we don't like, and allof these problems which are
pushed out there in these narratives, they're problems
which affect us as well, believeit or not.
And so why don't we do somethingradical?
Why don't we start working together to solve these issues?
Because we have volunteers in our community.
(22:53):
You obviously have a lot of verypassionate people about these
issues. Why don't we come together and
solve? Them gone beyond doing this sort
of thing on the ground. I think, I think you have to do
more of that, not less of it. And there's a hope and there's a
catharsis if you felt unheard inbeing unheard.
And obviously if you're a, if you're a person of faith, then
(23:13):
you want to save every soul. But I think what's powerful
about what Adam's saying is, youknow, there's a principle that
you take in good faith, everything said in good faith.
And if something isn't said in good faith, you try and engage
with it as if it was. And then there is going to be.
Just one little point, it's it'snot about saving souls, it's
about seeing the other person asa human.
So even if you don't agree on onyour religious views and
(23:34):
beliefs, you at least understandthey're a human and and deserve
to be treated with dignity and. Respect change.
What you would say that's structural?
In A and then The thing is, is we can all see each other as
human. And then what?
Because there is a point that we've got to hold the people who
are making the decisions where there is a group of people at
(23:54):
the bottom who are, you know, working class people are not
just white, working class peopleare Muslim, working class people
are black. You know, there are groups of
people in this country who are making decisions where those
people's lives are now in decline and have been for a long
time. So we have to make so, so it's,
(24:18):
I kind of agree with you. It's really lovely for us to be
human and think about all of it.But how do we make sure that our
kids end up with a decent job and somewhere to.
I I agree with you, but I don't think the police to protest that
is outside the mosque or outside.
The. Hotel.
And no, neither do and. There's a key distinction that
comes out of that, I think, which is that I can, I can talk
you out of your fear or prejudice or hatred of the
(24:42):
other. If you don't know that person, I
can't talk you out of your sensethat there aren't fair chances
for you and your kids and other people's kids.
I need action and work there. But it's not.
So the socio economic factors and the cultural identity
factors, they, they overlap. The left tends to think it's all
just economics. You know, if we built enough
hospitals with young enough schools, we wouldn't have that.
(25:03):
It's not true. You know, fear and hatred of
Muslims goes all the way up and all the way down.
But so so it's separate, creating out in a way the
concerns about opportunities, chance and discrimination from
the fear of. The other, the thing that's
interesting about the current moment we appear to be in, when
we were in Middlesbrough, for example, white working class
people were saying they had realconcerns about the state of
(25:26):
their housing. They have concerns about
poverty, their concerns about the cost of living.
But when you go round the cornerto the houses of people whose
windows were smashed in, who were immigrants, their concerns
are exactly the same. Yeah.
But it's not seeing that. Yeah.
And how, how do you do that structurally?
How do you do that through government?
(25:47):
Because reaching out may not be enough.
I'm, I'm a, I'm a firm believer in, in little things with big
intentions having big impact. And so to, I'll give you one
example. We at the Light Foundation, we
had an event, this is years before the, the, the riots and
we were talking about Islamic Sharia, which so many people
online have so much to say about.
(26:09):
So we had this event and membersof far right groups, Football
Lads Alliance, EDL, when it was a thing back in the day, they
turned up and one particular gentleman came in with a T-shirt
with a picture of Enoch Powell on it saying Enoch was right.
He, he, at the beginning of, of our event, he was shouting that
there's only one law in this country and it's Christian law.
(26:31):
And then after the, the, the kind of tensions settled, we had
our discussion, we listened to each other and then we had food
afterwards. And he came up to me and he
said, you know what, I wish all Muslims were like you.
And I explained to him, well, actually a lot of them, the vast
majority of them are like me. And we took him out for a meal
after this, after the event, he came for a kebab with us.
(26:53):
Then we went to a dessert parlour.
We were talking, he was sharing his life story.
If you'd have walked into that dessert parlour, you would have
thought this guy was one of our close friends.
He started crying. He started crying tears after he
he said to us, nobody has ever treated me this kindly all my
life. And I was shocked.
We bought the guy a kebab and hebroke down in tears.
And one thing I learnt from that, and it's just been
(27:16):
confirmed time after time after time, is the people who manifest
the most hatred are usually upset with themselves more than
anybody else. And sometimes all you need you
can talk about changing government.
Such as? I.
Don't. Just one last point.
You can talk about changing government structures.
I'm telling you, just a hug or asmile.
Yeah, or a nice gesture. You can call me wishy Washy.
(27:38):
We stopped the riots in Liverpool last year.
It worked. Everybody was against me, even
many people within the house. When you have hundreds of people
heading. I agree most that would.
Break how? Burn down houses?
That's not going to work, is it?No, you know what?
Take away. So if we start to think about
how angry should somebody be? So the fact that someone's lives
(27:58):
are over generations have declined and declined and this
is all of us. This is not white working class.
This is all of us. That your kids now have got
absolutely no chance of probablyeven renting anywhere to live.
There is a righteous anger thereand you should be angry about
that because. They're and our community can be
angry together with. Yeah, but that's what I'm
saying, all of us. Very often those communities are
(28:19):
not angry together, are they? And these?
Right, I don't know, I think if.That's not helping.
What are they? I don't know.
Let's speak out to. Let's speak out to people and
say how who is angry that their kids are no longer going to
probably be able to even rent a house?
Everybody, everybody's angry about that.
So I think that's a righteous anger.
I think, I think it's interesting your example of the
(28:41):
Enoch was right. I mean, my father comes to
Britain the week after that speech by Enoch Powell.
What what that speech is saying is saying, well, he should stay
in Gujarat or he should go back.But what it's really saying is
Sundercat Waller should never beborn in Britain because people
like Sundercat Waller or Kenny Baden or Co, anyone else, they
(29:01):
will never be us. They will always be them and us.
And I think we have this, them and us debate.
They are a threat to us, they will never be us.
They are taking our stuff and the left tends to come back with
but they are good for us. You don't realise it's all going
to go well. The question is how do people
become US? And that's where I think there
is hope in this catharsis, this ability to feel.
We're running out of time and I just want to to ask you, Lisa,
(29:26):
you have a Labour government at the moment, a very, very
different Labour government, they would say, much more
representative of, of, of the wider country, they would say.
Angela Rayner understands what it's like to grow up on
benefits. Bridget Phillipson says her, you
know, determination to to talk about child poverty is because
of what she experienced growing up.
(29:48):
What difference will any of thatmake?
And if it's not making a difference, why do you think
it's not? They're talking about £1.5
billion to regenerate neighborhoods, 39 billion for
new affordable homes. And we know housing is an issue
across the board. Yeah.
I mean, we've, this is 40 years in the making.
(30:10):
This is not, this is not one year from Southport.
Last year, you know, when I talkabout the, when people look like
the miners strike, the miners strike was one year, but
actually the decline of those communities has been 40 years
and things aren't going to open happen overnight.
But people do need some hope. So we do need that, that there's
(30:30):
got to be hope for people. I'm not, I don't even know how
that happens, that I'm living ina part of the country which is
Nottinghamshire. I come from Ashfield, where
people are absolutely hopeless. You know, they, they, they're
cynical, they're hopeless, they're anger.
I don't know anymore what what we can do about that.
(30:50):
I mean, Andy MacDonald, the MP for Middlesbrough, told us that
you can have all those justifiedgrievances, particularly in
parts of the country that where we know poverty has really got a
grip, that that those years of underinvestment, but that at the
moment immigration is being seenas the one single reason that
that, yeah, is too easy. Yeah, I think when it when it
(31:13):
comes to political parties and politicians, I think we need to
be careful not not to be draggedinto their into their
narratives. Just as an example, I had a
close meet in a private meeting with the chair of a particular
party, which is very anti immigration.
And this was in a particular part of of the country.
And he said to me when he was canvassing for voters, the
(31:35):
number one concern which was being raised time and time again
was immigration. And I asked him, is that the
same for you and your party? He said, actually it's probably
#3 it's still important to us, but it's #3 but that is not
reflected in their campaigns. It's not reflected in what they
say they're going to do for people.
Very briefly, there's a. Danger.
Both. Just for the people to bring it
to an end. Fortunately, what's happened is
(31:56):
people has wrapped up immigration with housing, with
cost of living crisis. They've wrapped it up.
It doesn't. It doesn't belong together.
But because for so long now nobody's been tackling any of
those issues, people have now made their.
Own. I agree it's a complete package.
People have have got made their own narrative.
I think one reason we have a skewed debate that's too
pessimistic even in the very stretched times we're in, is
(32:18):
that integration, when it happens, is invisible.
Where it's the social class background of the cabinet,
whether it's diversity in the parliament, when it works,
whether it's class mobility whenit works and where it's failing,
it sticks like a sort of thumb. So that, I think is why we we in
a sense, talk ourselves into a doom loop when there's a lot of
pressure and a lot of challenge.But we need some grounds for
hope, too. Going to have to end it there,
(32:39):
but Doctor Lisa McKenzie, SundarKatwala and Adam Kelwick.
Kelwick, thank you very much forjoining us.
That is it for this episode of The FORECAST.
Until next time, goodbye.
It's hard not to think the UK ison fire.
There's anger everywhere. Is it?
People are extremely angry. A dangerous level of anger in
your view? Yeah, seething with anger.
None of the conditions of what happened last summer have gone
away. Violence might not happen, but
the absence of riots shouldn't be anybody's test for cohesion
(00:20):
in our country. Sometimes all we need to do is
sit down with these people, meeteach other, and you'll discover
that the other side aren't necessarily the monsters which
you think they are. Hello and welcome to the
forecast Are anti migrant protests around the country
about to explode into another summer of riots?
(00:40):
A year ago, towns across Britainwere in flames as anti
immigration protests turned violent.
They were prompted by the mass stabbing of girls as a dance
class in Southport, but fuelled by online misinformation and
anti Muslim rhetoric. It was the largest instance of
social unrest in England for more than a decade and there are
fears that this summer could seea repeat.
(01:01):
Already there's been a string ofprotests around hotels housing
asylum seekers, the Police Federation called recent unrest
in Epping a signal flare. So with the number of migrants
crossing the Channel in small boats actually up, and social
media, not to mention certain MPs pumping out inflammatory
comments, is a summer marked by more violence inevitable?
(01:23):
And how did the police, the politicians and the protesters
them styles distinguish between the genuine concerns of
dispossessed communities and thegratuitous violence of racists
and the far right? To discuss this I'm joined by
the academic doctor Lisa McKenzie, who writes primarily
about working class communities and class inequality.
Sundar Katwala, the director of the think tank British Future,
(01:44):
which focuses on diversity and social inclusion, and Adam
Kelwick, imam of EU KS oldest mosque in Liverpool, who came to
prominence during last year's riots with his attempts at
dialogue with protesters. Thank you, all of you, for
joining us today. Can I begin by asking you, if
you look at what we've been looking at, at Epping in other
places across the country, it's hard not to think the UK is on
(02:06):
fire. There's anger everywhere, Is it?
Yeah, I think there is. I'll be honest, I'm not sure
that we're in for a summer of riots.
I'm not sure about that. But I do know that there's been
a growing anger that is inescapable.
You know what isn't inescapable for me?
Because I live in a working class community.
(02:28):
I work in working class communities and people are
extremely angry. But it's a number of things.
It's not just one thing, it's lots of things.
It's things not working properly.
It's the cost of living crisis. You know, everybody's
complaining that every that foodis going up day by day.
And then of course, you know, there's this constant news cycle
(02:53):
about people coming in from different countries, you know,
are they getting this or are they getting that?
And there is a drip feed going on.
So people are extremely angry. A dangerous level of anger in
your view? Yeah, I, I would, I would say
ordinary people that that a few years ago didn't even know any
(03:13):
of this existed are now talking about it.
And people who a few years ago did know it existed are now
seething with anger. So yeah, I I would say that this
is where we are. Senator Cutwaller, I'm in a
country, or at least parts of it, seething with anger.
I think riots and violence certainly aren't inevitable, but
they're but they're possible. I think we need vigilance
(03:35):
without alarmism. That can be a difficult balance
to strike. None of the conditions of what
happened last summer have gone away in terms of the tinderbox
on social media, if there is a shocking event, if there were
rumours of something that's happened in terms of the long
term underlying causes. So we we haven't dealt with the
(03:56):
long term causes, we haven't dealt with some of the sharp
short term pressures. But you know, violence might not
happen. But the absence of riots
shouldn't be anybody's test for cohesion in our country.
You were in the middle of the actual violence and rioting of
last year. Where do you think we are right
now? So I I like to always be
optimistic, but at the same timethat has to be balanced with
(04:18):
some realism. And unfortunately, all the
ingredients which were there last year are also still here
this year. I think you know, the, the, the
firewood, which are these small numbers of these very
ideologically driven people, whether that's racism, anti
(04:40):
immigrant hatred, anti Muslim hatred, they are there.
The fuel is continuously being poured maybe even more intensely
now than last year by the media,whether that's the mainstream
media or whether it's online channels and accounts.
And unfortunately, if there was to be a spark, I think there is
a very real danger that we couldfind ourselves in a similar
(05:02):
situation to last year. OK.
You both touch on this idea of the ingredients are there.
I don't know whether you agree about what those ingredients
are. I'm assuming you'd say they're
not ideologically driven. Not well.
There are ideologically driven people who are making hay out of
these situations. Of course there are on the far
right and on the left as well. That is happening.
(05:24):
But then there are other ingredients.
You know, there is 40 years of deindustrialisation and no
economic strategy that's gonna lift the bottom up.
There's poverty, there's feelings of hopelessness.
You know, we've had 40 years of,of, of inequality widening and
hopelessness. So don't you know, we shouldn't
(05:45):
be not expecting. We've got hopeless people, you
know, people who look out in their future and don't see
anything good happening. But it ties to this very big
question, doesn't it, about whatare legitimate concerns and what
are legitimate ways of expressing them.
I, I do find myself in, in, in agreement with you because as I
said, there are a small number of these people who are pushing
(06:07):
certain ideologies and narratives.
But what happens is the vast majority of people who are
dragged into these protests and these riots are, in my
experience, because I've been working a lot with people who
attended the riots last year. I've been building real
friendships with them. And I've found that actually the
vast majority of the number of people who attend these riots
(06:29):
and protests aren't necessarily the types who are driven by the
ideologies. They're dragged into other
people's narratives. And in fact, they're just
genuine people who have genuine concerns.
And they are worried about society.
They are worried about their children.
They have lots of worries who weincidentally, as a Muslim
community also share with those concerns with.
Them when so much of that sorry with so much of those legitimate
(06:52):
concerns that you both talked about seemed throughout the
riots last time we look at the the hotel issue directed at
immigrants directed at migrants.I think it's right to have the
concept of legitimate concerns. There are people who mock that
and say it's always dog whistling or it's always
pandering prejudice. But I think we forget something,
which is the very concept of legitimate concerns involves a
(07:16):
differentiation between the legitimate and the illegitimate.
And that is partly about the means, which is it's peaceful
voice and your right to voice, and it's not violence,
intimidation and threat. And it's partly about what
you're saying as well. So if you're saying send them
all back or extend that we don'tjust want the asylum seekers
out, we want all the minorities,all the Muslims, you know,
(07:37):
everybody out to them, that's illegitimate.
And I think if you're defending the legitimate concerns, you
also have to be drawing the lineas to what you're not admitting.
So there are people and they they were successful in
Rotherham and they were successful in Ballymena and
they're who they were hoping to be successful in Epping, who are
not saying let's get the councilto petition the government to
(07:58):
change the policy on the hotels.They're saying let's make it so
dangerous that people flee. I mean, let's make the
government the new. People no, it, no, it is.
And I think what we've got, we've come to this point where
when people say there's legitimate concerns, you've got
a whole group of I mean, they'recalling them the lanyard class
now or, you know, the the middleclass left or the, you know, I
(08:21):
call them the bourgeois left whoare now sort of, you know,
they're not allowing people to have legitimate concerns when
you say legitimate concerns, like it's almost like you're
Enoch Powell. You know, so we, we've closed
down that whole Ave. of debate and I'll tell you now that point
of, you know, where perhaps fiveyears ago people were saying,
(08:43):
you know, perhaps illegal migration needs to be, you know,
looked at now they are saying send everybody back.
I think because there's a lack of trust with our government,
with politicians, with the media, they're they're actually
gonna deal with these legitimateconcerns.
So instead, you know, everybody's being 40, not power,
I think. There's a problem with the
concept. Actually, it's a very distancing
(09:04):
concept, which is. I do not share your legitimate
concerns, but I respect them. It does feel quite it does.
Feel quite. Far apart, but actually, you
know, this government is very clear that it's that it's, it's
so concerned in a way to not criticise people's right to
protest asylum, hotels and so onthat it risks actually not doing
(09:24):
the other half of the argument, which is to say there's also
racism and prejudice as part of this.
And we need to make that separation because we're going
to listen to the mainstream argument, but we're not
actually. But how do you make that
distinct that? I think ultimately if you look
back to last year and how intense it was, a lot of people
have forgotten with time, but itwas very, very intense.
(09:45):
It wasn't just intense for the immigration centres and the
mosques which were targeted, butit was also intense for
everybody in society. We saw our city centres smashed
up, we saw children's services, libraries smashed up, we saw
lots of towns in absolute chaos and that affects everybody and I
don't think anybody in society wants to go back to where we.
(10:07):
Were but that is actually what happens when people riot that I
mean, that's that that's also the normal shape of a riot that
people do smash up their own communities.
There's a criminological conceptfor this.
It's called slow rioting. It's what happens when the state
has removed themselves from yourcommunity and you, you can't get
(10:27):
at the people or the state that's causing new problems.
I mean, we were there for you. And what what Lisa, I think is
rightly saying is that is that that broader oxygen, not the
violence itself, but the broaderoxygen is, is based on people
feeling unheard. If you want to make that
distinction, there are actually some really important ways to do
it. 1 is, is it peaceful? Is it violent?
(10:49):
Is it threatening? Another really good test I think
in the society we're in now is if you've got legitimate
concerns, could somebody white, working class, somebody Asian,
somebody back share those concerns?
Or are they the concerns only ofone but?
Can I just ask you, you as someone you know you're in a
mosque when the rioters headed towards you, are you ever in
that moment thinking any of these concerns are legitimate?
(11:11):
So what I found on the night of the riots when people were
outside our mosque is when I stepped over the police lines
after we confirmed with the police that it was safe to do
so, and I started speaking with the protesters.
More important than speaking to them was listening to them.
Then people did share some of their concerns with me.
(11:32):
A lot of those concerns were based on on ignorance and, and
and falsehoods. However I was listening.
I'll, I'll give you one example,one gentleman, probably the
loudest person at the protest. I asked him, why exactly are you
here at our mosque? You know, what's this got to do
with anything? He said we're fed up with two
tier policing. To which I said to him, well,
why not take the protest to the police station then?
(11:54):
You know, what does this have todo with us?
But the point is, I think there is an argument for saying that
many members of the white British working class people
need to be heard. I don't think their voices are
represented. And this, this is an issue.
I think they're not represented or very rarely represented
properly within politics. And I don't think the
(12:16):
politicians are listening to them.
And unfortunately me and my mosque and my community have to
put up with these protests and these riots when actually what
they are upset with are decisions which are ultimately.
But if you're burning down or trying to burn down a hotel
that's got asylum seekers and can there ever be anything other
than racist? No, I mean, I'm going to be
honest. No, I mean it can also, but you
(12:39):
know, it can also be not a racist intent, but then it it
does become but. We're targeting asylum people in
a hotel. It's just racist, isn't it?
Yes, it yes it is. But, you know, I have spoken to
people that have that have been around, sort of have been
thinking about doing this sort of thing.
(12:59):
And again, are they trying to kill the people inside or are
they trying to get rid of the problem?
And I think sometimes when when we've moved over that step of
reasonableness and an argument and debate and we've moved into
that step of civil disorder and riot, you know, things are not
always as clear. And Adam is absolutely right.
(13:22):
The Muslim community last year had to deal with the fact that
that there is no there's very little representation for all
poor working class. People but but if they are
targeting you, you, you take a very generous view.
Some people might say, some of the Muslim communities that I've
spoken to would not take such a generous view that if a mob is
(13:45):
headed towards you to try and throw stones or or or damage
your mosque shouting things thatare really offensive that are
out and out racist, then that does that delegitimize anything
that you may have started with the intent that you talked
about? I mean, yes, I mean, of course
it it does delegitimize it because you what you've done it.
(14:07):
Also puts people at danger. You put people.
In danger, I mean. Well, I am a white working class
woman. I wasn't.
I wasn't called white and working class until about 2000.
That was always working class and that is where that's where
you know, where the problem is. About 20 to five years ago, you
(14:28):
know, we decided that there weredivisions between working class
people and you know, and we've done that through box ticking
and through. And so I don't want to be white
and working class. I want to be working class and I
want all working class people. But the very distinction does
suit some people who don't want black or brown people within the
(14:50):
you who don't consider them the same.
Yes, and that's on and that's onmany different levels.
You know, I'm, I'm with Adam really I, I'd like to, you know,
for us all to come together, allworking class people.
And this is a class issue about inequality.
It's under coming. I think we've got to make some
distinctions here. They're very different
experiences of change in our society.
(15:11):
I've had a positive experience of change in my society in my
lifetime because I'm the child of migrants.
I did well in education. If you're, you know, there are
lots of people, first, second generation British minorities,
women in workplaces, people who are gay who have had a positive
experience of change, they're very much more negative
experience of change between thecities and the townspeople feel
(15:34):
unheard in the townspeople feel unheard from working class
backgrounds. People who haven't, you know,
got many degrees feel, feel unheard.
That is very different from the people who are trying to get all
the Muslims and all the asylum seekers out there.
About one in 50 people in our country were elated by the
violence, not because they fear a civil war, but because they're
(15:56):
rather hoping for one. So I think, I think policing and
telling that group what is unacceptable and then cutting
them off from maybe 1/4 of society, 1/3 of society, 40% of
society. They've got things to say in the
political system about immigration, asylum,
integration. That's a crucial distinction to
make. Otherwise, this language about
legitimate concerns doesn't cut out the racism, the violence,
(16:17):
the. Threat.
So, so, so in, in Liverpool we actually saw a manifestation of
what what you've just described when it was the LFC parade
through the city centre, there was somebody who rammed into a
crowd full of people. I was actually at the parade, I
left before the incident itself and I was looking online because
unfortunately, because of the way things work, people will go
(16:40):
straight to X before they go to any legitimate or kind of
credible source of information. And they'll see they want to
know right then, right now what's happening as happened in
Southport. And what I was seeing was
unfortunately, people who were not bothered at all about the
the people who were injured in the attack all they wanted.
(17:03):
And it's like they were desperate for the driver of the
car to be either an immigrant oran asylum seeker or a Muslim.
And when it when it occurred later on that he wasn't, it was
almost as if they were disappointed because they
couldn't push for this narrativeto be enforced and and this this
racist agenda, if you like. Yeah.
(17:24):
I mean, what I, I'd also say is you're sort of talking about the
police or the government tellingsomebody, you know, that this is
unacceptable, but who is tellingthe police and who is telling
the government that what they are doing is unacceptable as
well? Because I think that's where
we've got a problem, is this idea that, you know, some people
are legitimately telling us what's acceptable and what isn't
(17:47):
and yet nobody is holding the people to account that's making
the decisions that is causing these divisions, the hotels
since. They can.
Stand back, I think. They can look at people
protesting and fighting outside asylum seeker hotels and say
this is nothing to do. With us and they can put lots of
memes about poor white working class people all over social
(18:09):
media. You know, there, there.
I, I remember last year at Southport, I remember people
laughing openly, taking photographs of, of the
television and saying, look at the state of these people's
teeth. You know, that is what happens
when there are no dentists. That's what happens when
people's health has deterioratedover generations.
(18:29):
They look ill. But the difficulty?
Is something positive about whatthe police were doing in Epping,
which became the epicentre? There was a, you know, a sexual
assault, a charge or a serious sexual assault.
There was protests, there was concern.
They did a really good job, I think, of saying what you were
allowed to do if you're a anti hotel protester, if you're a
(18:50):
left wing protester and what youweren't allowed to do.
And they said no one's going to wear any, no one's going to have
face masks on when they're making their points.
If you do that, then you can be tough on disorder, but that's
different from being tough on the causes.
But in, in, in a way, the hotelsand the issue about the safety
of women and children, which is what some people are saying this
(19:10):
is about it. It's quite interesting, isn't
it? You know, it's being framed as,
as you wrote yourself, you know hundreds of unknown unvetted
single men being housed in theircommunities.
I suppose women and girls are surrounded by unvetted unknown
men. We know the dangers that men
pose to women. Is it legitimate to target one
(19:34):
particular group of men in an asylum seekers hotel?
I think now, I think that now ithas become legitimate because,
you know, for many, many years people have been complaining
about the government's dispersalprogramme.
It's been going, this has been happening in a long time, you
know, refugees and asylum seekers who are poor themselves
(20:00):
and are coming from all over theworld with different
backgrounds. They've been put into the
poorest communities now for at least 25 years.
I mean. That is the fact that.
There are. More asylum seekers and refugees
dispersed to poorer parts. Yeah, and I've made this all.
I mean, it's only very recently that different governments have
decided to put more resources into those areas.
(20:22):
At one point, there was no extraresources and the whole
community had to share the little that they got.
That was legitimate concern. But the but to the to the very
specific point about we know thedanger that men pose to to women
and girls. You know, Wayne Cousins was was
vetted and was given enough authority to have a police
(20:43):
uniform to go out and and and and kill and rape.
Is it legitimate in say in your,in your view, Adam, to use that
to focus it in as the reason forwhat is happening around the
hotels? Is it a legitimate concern or is
it being used as? I think the big mistake where
(21:05):
we're all making here is we're referring to groups of people
and we're stripping them of their humanity.
And I think all sides are guiltyby the way we're stripping them
of their humanity. So whether that's the white
British working class or whetherthat's the far right or whether
that's asylum seekers, don't forget there are real people
behind these groups which we have in our in our heads.
(21:27):
And sometimes all we need to do is sit down with these people,
meet each other, learn about each other, and you'll discover
that the other side aren't necessarily the monsters which
you think they are. And as I said, and this applies
to all sides, because on the night of the riots in Liverpool,
many people in the Muslim community were saying to me, no,
why are you cooking food for these people?
You can't speak to these people.They want to kill you.
(21:49):
They want to burn your Moss downand they want to send all
Muslims out of the country. And I was like, no, they're,
they're, they're people. And if we're from a religious or
a spiritual perspective, we haveto see the other as a soul.
And what I have been doing sincelast year's riots is I've been
sitting down building friendships with some of the
heavyweights who were at the Save Our Children protest, for
(22:11):
example. And I've been allowing them to
see who I and my community are as people.
And likewise we've been meeting with them.
We've been taking young people to gyms who are running
different parts of the city where they'd never usually be.
We've been on walks into the Welsh countryside together.
And guess what? Everybody realizes that they're
human beings. We have families who we care
(22:32):
for. We all suffer from the cost of
living crisis. We all get bills from the tax
man which we don't like, and allof these problems which are
pushed out there in these narratives, they're problems
which affect us as well, believeit or not.
And so why don't we do somethingradical?
Why don't we start working together to solve these issues?
Because we have volunteers in our community.
(22:53):
You obviously have a lot of verypassionate people about these
issues. Why don't we come together and
solve? Them gone beyond doing this sort
of thing on the ground. I think, I think you have to do
more of that, not less of it. And there's a hope and there's a
catharsis if you felt unheard inbeing unheard.
And obviously if you're a, if you're a person of faith, then
(23:13):
you want to save every soul. But I think what's powerful
about what Adam's saying is, youknow, there's a principle that
you take in good faith, everything said in good faith.
And if something isn't said in good faith, you try and engage
with it as if it was. And then there is going to be.
Just one little point, it's it'snot about saving souls, it's
about seeing the other person asa human.
So even if you don't agree on onyour religious views and
(23:34):
beliefs, you at least understandthey're a human and and deserve
to be treated with dignity and. Respect change.
What you would say that's structural?
In A and then The thing is, is we can all see each other as
human. And then what?
Because there is a point that we've got to hold the people who
are making the decisions where there is a group of people at
(23:54):
the bottom who are, you know, working class people are not
just white, working class peopleare Muslim, working class people
are black. You know, there are groups of
people in this country who are making decisions where those
people's lives are now in decline and have been for a long
time. So we have to make so, so it's,
(24:18):
I kind of agree with you. It's really lovely for us to be
human and think about all of it.But how do we make sure that our
kids end up with a decent job and somewhere to.
I I agree with you, but I don't think the police to protest that
is outside the mosque or outside.
The. Hotel.
And no, neither do and. There's a key distinction that
comes out of that, I think, which is that I can, I can talk
you out of your fear or prejudice or hatred of the
(24:42):
other. If you don't know that person, I
can't talk you out of your sensethat there aren't fair chances
for you and your kids and other people's kids.
I need action and work there. But it's not.
So the socio economic factors and the cultural identity
factors, they, they overlap. The left tends to think it's all
just economics. You know, if we built enough
hospitals with young enough schools, we wouldn't have that.
(25:03):
It's not true. You know, fear and hatred of
Muslims goes all the way up and all the way down.
But so so it's separate, creating out in a way the
concerns about opportunities, chance and discrimination from
the fear of. The other, the thing that's
interesting about the current moment we appear to be in, when
we were in Middlesbrough, for example, white working class
people were saying they had realconcerns about the state of
(25:26):
their housing. They have concerns about
poverty, their concerns about the cost of living.
But when you go round the cornerto the houses of people whose
windows were smashed in, who were immigrants, their concerns
are exactly the same. Yeah.
But it's not seeing that. Yeah.
And how, how do you do that structurally?
How do you do that through government?
(25:47):
Because reaching out may not be enough.
I'm, I'm a, I'm a firm believer in, in little things with big
intentions having big impact. And so to, I'll give you one
example. We at the Light Foundation, we
had an event, this is years before the, the, the riots and
we were talking about Islamic Sharia, which so many people
online have so much to say about.
(26:09):
So we had this event and membersof far right groups, Football
Lads Alliance, EDL, when it was a thing back in the day, they
turned up and one particular gentleman came in with a T-shirt
with a picture of Enoch Powell on it saying Enoch was right.
He, he, at the beginning of, of our event, he was shouting that
there's only one law in this country and it's Christian law.
(26:31):
And then after the, the, the kind of tensions settled, we had
our discussion, we listened to each other and then we had food
afterwards. And he came up to me and he
said, you know what, I wish all Muslims were like you.
And I explained to him, well, actually a lot of them, the vast
majority of them are like me. And we took him out for a meal
after this, after the event, he came for a kebab with us.
(26:53):
Then we went to a dessert parlour.
We were talking, he was sharing his life story.
If you'd have walked into that dessert parlour, you would have
thought this guy was one of our close friends.
He started crying. He started crying tears after he
he said to us, nobody has ever treated me this kindly all my
life. And I was shocked.
We bought the guy a kebab and hebroke down in tears.
And one thing I learnt from that, and it's just been
(27:16):
confirmed time after time after time, is the people who manifest
the most hatred are usually upset with themselves more than
anybody else. And sometimes all you need you
can talk about changing government.
Such as? I.
Don't. Just one last point.
You can talk about changing government structures.
I'm telling you, just a hug or asmile.
Yeah, or a nice gesture. You can call me wishy Washy.
(27:38):
We stopped the riots in Liverpool last year.
It worked. Everybody was against me, even
many people within the house. When you have hundreds of people
heading. I agree most that would.
Break how? Burn down houses?
That's not going to work, is it?No, you know what?
Take away. So if we start to think about
how angry should somebody be? So the fact that someone's lives
(27:58):
are over generations have declined and declined and this
is all of us. This is not white working class.
This is all of us. That your kids now have got
absolutely no chance of probablyeven renting anywhere to live.
There is a righteous anger thereand you should be angry about
that because. They're and our community can be
angry together with. Yeah, but that's what I'm
saying, all of us. Very often those communities are
(28:19):
not angry together, are they? And these?
Right, I don't know, I think if.That's not helping.
What are they? I don't know.
Let's speak out to. Let's speak out to people and
say how who is angry that their kids are no longer going to
probably be able to even rent a house?
Everybody, everybody's angry about that.
So I think that's a righteous anger.
I think, I think it's interesting your example of the
(28:41):
Enoch was right. I mean, my father comes to
Britain the week after that speech by Enoch Powell.
What what that speech is saying is saying, well, he should stay
in Gujarat or he should go back.But what it's really saying is
Sundercat Waller should never beborn in Britain because people
like Sundercat Waller or Kenny Baden or Co, anyone else, they
(29:01):
will never be us. They will always be them and us.
And I think we have this, them and us debate.
They are a threat to us, they will never be us.
They are taking our stuff and the left tends to come back with
but they are good for us. You don't realise it's all going
to go well. The question is how do people
become US? And that's where I think there
is hope in this catharsis, this ability to feel.
We're running out of time and I just want to to ask you, Lisa,
(29:26):
you have a Labour government at the moment, a very, very
different Labour government, they would say, much more
representative of, of, of the wider country, they would say.
Angela Rayner understands what it's like to grow up on
benefits. Bridget Phillipson says her, you
know, determination to to talk about child poverty is because
of what she experienced growing up.
(29:48):
What difference will any of thatmake?
And if it's not making a difference, why do you think
it's not? They're talking about £1.5
billion to regenerate neighborhoods, 39 billion for
new affordable homes. And we know housing is an issue
across the board. Yeah.
I mean, we've, this is 40 years in the making.
(30:10):
This is not, this is not one year from Southport.
Last year, you know, when I talkabout the, when people look like
the miners strike, the miners strike was one year, but
actually the decline of those communities has been 40 years
and things aren't going to open happen overnight.
But people do need some hope. So we do need that, that there's
(30:30):
got to be hope for people. I'm not, I don't even know how
that happens, that I'm living ina part of the country which is
Nottinghamshire. I come from Ashfield, where
people are absolutely hopeless. You know, they, they, they're
cynical, they're hopeless, they're anger.
I don't know anymore what what we can do about that.
(30:50):
I mean, Andy MacDonald, the MP for Middlesbrough, told us that
you can have all those justifiedgrievances, particularly in
parts of the country that where we know poverty has really got a
grip, that that those years of underinvestment, but that at the
moment immigration is being seenas the one single reason that
that, yeah, is too easy. Yeah, I think when it when it
(31:13):
comes to political parties and politicians, I think we need to
be careful not not to be draggedinto their into their
narratives. Just as an example, I had a
close meet in a private meeting with the chair of a particular
party, which is very anti immigration.
And this was in a particular part of of the country.
And he said to me when he was canvassing for voters, the
(31:35):
number one concern which was being raised time and time again
was immigration. And I asked him, is that the
same for you and your party? He said, actually it's probably
#3 it's still important to us, but it's #3 but that is not
reflected in their campaigns. It's not reflected in what they
say they're going to do for people.
Very briefly, there's a. Danger.
Both. Just for the people to bring it
to an end. Fortunately, what's happened is
(31:56):
people has wrapped up immigration with housing, with
cost of living crisis. They've wrapped it up.
It doesn't. It doesn't belong together.
But because for so long now nobody's been tackling any of
those issues, people have now made their.
Own. I agree it's a complete package.
People have have got made their own narrative.
I think one reason we have a skewed debate that's too
pessimistic even in the very stretched times we're in, is
(32:18):
that integration, when it happens, is invisible.
Where it's the social class background of the cabinet,
whether it's diversity in the parliament, when it works,
whether it's class mobility whenit works and where it's failing,
it sticks like a sort of thumb. So that, I think is why we we in
a sense, talk ourselves into a doom loop when there's a lot of
pressure and a lot of challenge.But we need some grounds for
hope, too. Going to have to end it there,
(32:39):
but Doctor Lisa McKenzie, SundarKatwala and Adam Kelwick.
Kelwick, thank you very much forjoining us.
That is it for this episode of The FORECAST.
Until next time, goodbye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.