September 9, 2025 • 29 mins
Renting where you live and investing your spare funds to maximise capital growth is steadily becoming a key factor in the residential market - especially for younger buyers. But the key to success in this area is optimising your position as an investor - rather than a homebuyer.
Arjun Paliwal of buyer's agency, InvestorKit joins Associate Editor - Wealth, James Kirby in this episode.
In today's show, we cover:
- Perfect Match - How to optimise 'rentvesting'
- Borderless buying - Overcoming home bias
- The data points to monitor for success
- Will the government's universal first home scheme add risk to prices?
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello, and welcome to the Australians Money Puzzle podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm James Kirby. Welcome aboard everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I don't think there's any segment actually of the residential
property market that has less attention and is quite as
significant as the concept of rent investing. You know, it's
a major social trend for aspiring home buyers. They don't
buy the home. They don't buy a home the first
time they buy. What they do is they purchase an
(00:37):
investment property. They get the tax deductions related to that,
and then they build up equity and it allows them
basically to lead frog into the house that the house
of their dreams, there forever home, as they call it.
I want to talk about this and I have someone
who's ideal for it. It's our June Paliwal of the
Investigate Group, which is a buyer's advocate group. First time
(00:59):
on the show, but I know I've been listening to
you on this issue. You're very good on it, so
I was I thought would be ideal way to bring
you in.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
How I are.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
June, Yes, great, my friend, and definitely a hot topic
at the moment the world of rent festing.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
It is a hard topic and you know more than that.
I mean, there's always been sort of anecdotal. One of
the frustrating things I think is that there's a lot
of anecdotal commentary about it. It's like the bank of
Mom and Dad. You know, everyone talks about it, but
it's very hard to get stats on it. But I
was listening recently to one of the bank results, the
Bendico Bank results, and the CEO there, in releasing the
(01:30):
results actually, you know, made clear reference to Richard Fennell.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
He made clear reference to.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Their observation as a bank of the number of people,
younger people now doing this rent vesting the rent basically
and own an investment property. And I think, intriguingly, there's
also a speculation in the market that the banks, more
than one are working on a product that will be
like basically aimed at this area rent vesting mortgages, and
(01:58):
that will really I think, move it up along the
line whatever they come up with. But you've really had
a look at it, and you, I mean broadly, you
think it's pretty good for the right people in the
right place. Is that would that be a fair comment?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Absolutely, it can play a key part of people's journey
to building wells and even transitioning to their end of
goal of buying a home. I am a personal success
story of that. I now live in my dream home.
So you definitely here to say that you don't have
to be a rent vestor forever, but it can be
a transitional journey that's an absolute game changer. And I
(02:31):
want to take you through very quickly some of my
own journey in earlier parts of my career, jumping in
and around different suburbs to essentially be living from a
performance and lifestyle basis. And I'll give you some examples
of performance performance being one of my properties that I
was renting at in the suburb of Bella Vista and
(02:51):
Sydney was about a thirty second walk from my office
in Bellavista and Sydney, So it was a growing phase
of career business things like that, So it allowed me
to have proximity time there and those extra hours. If
you do the math over a fifty weeks a year
or fifty two weeks, takeaways the man you leave. But
the key is that math of a few extra hours
(03:12):
per day around your different audience rather than traveling and
coming home, you're at the office and you're in and
around places of people you have greater performance.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It gives you that efficiency, both financial efficiency and living efficiency.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Now tell me you were talking particularly about the nature
of revesting that most of our listeners obviously would be
familiar with the broad term, and I'm sure it's worked
well for you, that's why you're on the show. But
you've made a particular observation that about reinvesting. You might
explain this to our listeners who wouldn't have heard it before,
the way it works with the yields being so low
(03:49):
in big cities, the yels are two or three percent.
Out in the bush, there are six seven eight percent
in country towns. But would you explain to our listeners
how it made your concept about where it makes more
sense to do this.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
For sure, let's do the math on it. So before
I talked about performance space for investing, of where proximity
gives you performance in your home, your lifestyle, your business,
your career. Now if you move that over to financial
analysis of renvesting, let's take a three million dollar home
and you might go, why is are you using a
three million dollar home? It's intentional for a very specific reason.
(04:26):
If someone was to have a eighty percent loan against
that or even a ninety percent if someone wants to
get there with lower deposits and an eighty percent loan
is two point four million, and at today's interest rates
of say five and a half percent, that's one hundred
and thirty two thousand of interest. We're not talking principle
where everyone talking about buying your place is pushing the
loan down. We're just talking about the interest itself. Now,
(04:49):
with that one hundred and thirty two thousand of interest,
if you divide that by fifty two, that's two thousand,
five hundred and thirty eight dollars a week. However, a
three million dollar property does not cost you two and
a half thousand dollars per week to rent. Usually, rental yields,
like in some suburbs of Sydney, can be as low
as two to three percent or even one point seven
(05:10):
to two and a half percent. So if we took
a two point two percent rental yield and divided that
by fifty two, that's about twelve hundred and seventy dollars
a week in rent versus you know, more than two
and a half thousand an interest alone, and you're not
talking council rates and other things I see.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So is the concept basically that the Australian property has
become so expensive in the metropolitan areas that the rental
yields are so low that there's actually an opportunity for
the agile investor property investor to exploit this. But because
the yields are so poor for those very expensive subverbs
(05:49):
that if you want to the way to play it
is or to optimize that are exploited, is actually to
rent in it because you're actually getting a better deal
because rents have never kept pace with prices.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Is that the underlying.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Logic, absolutely the underlying logic. And so the thing here
is that the more premium the suburb is, the greater
the disparity between rental yield and actual interest on a
mortgage if you're owning. So if you're going to live
in a regional part of Australia in the most affordable
suburb in a unit, it's likely that the rat was
(06:23):
yields high, so rate vesting might not be for you
if you plan to live in that location for some time.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So that's the flip side of what we're saying. Right,
there's the logical flip side of what we're saying. Absolutely,
then in areas where the property prices are not so
relatively high, the deal on rent isn't as good. And
we know that because the rents are six seven percent
or whatever, while in the middle of the city is
there are two and three percent. It's a really good theory,
not just theory. It's a really good I am sure
(06:49):
for many people. It has a lot of pluses. Now
let's go a little bit deeper. If the person is
deciding to do this rent vest and they say, Okay,
we know how we're we're going to buy a good
investment property in their city, it's going to we know
this suburb is on the rise. We don't actually want
to live in that soburb. We want to live this
(07:10):
other suburb which is more expensive and is also close
to where we work, and we can cycle over something
like that. Okay, that all makes sense, but let's just
have a look at it more closely. Now, should the
renvestor then should they do interest only? It would seem
to me that that's probably on the table here.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Absolutely, So, I think firstly, each financial position would be
different betweening on the goals that they're after and seeking
their own advice and guidance. But when you look at
investment debt and the renvestor is now renting in that
great premium location for performance, lifestyle and financially, the next
thing is what they do with their money. Because they
still have capital that isn't tied.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Up, they must invest to make it work. I am
acting our joy. Absolutely, they can't go and spend it
on a boat. That blows your theory pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I imagine you're spot on right. Renting has its advantages,
but the money needs to go to work, right and
when you're going to work with that money. Yes, the
interest on those investment related debts can be deductible, and
so if they're deductible, then making sure you're not just
pushing down that repayment in those early Welsh building stages
(08:18):
is actually, you know, not in your favor. You want
to actually have the debt that's there and focus on
every bit of dollar towards acquiring more assets, whether there
be in other vehicles or property or so forth. You
don't want to go and focus on taking all your
cash flow just to pay down debts whilst you're in
what I call an acquisition phase. The Welsh building phase.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Right, Yes, okay, so there's two things then in its favor.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
It seems to me.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
One is a natural market issue, as you mentioned about
the basically for investing, the value is explicit in expensive
what we call relatively expensive parts of the market because
the user a little. The second part then is the
tax advantage. How dependent on tax advantages specifically negative gearing
(09:06):
is the whole rent vesting notion.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
It plays a part. But even if there was no
tax advantages in favor from that negative gearing, there is
the wealth building advantage because the location that you're in
to live in from a lifestyle or maybe live in
what you can afford, because you can't live in that
premium location at all times. If you feel that that
cost is too high, ins why you're investing there. But
(09:31):
if you now went to another suburb and you decided
to pull all your money into buying a home to
live in, you've got to take a moment to question
tax advantages aside. Is there a location in Australia where
the data is better for me to actually invest in
than the place I'm going to sink money in, which
is the home And if that is better, you're now
(09:53):
actually onto something and renvesting can build your wealth faster
than the home you're in because that tax advantage does matter.
Now you already are going to actually focus on building
wealth with data, not just the tax advantage behind it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Very good, and we're going to have a look at
that broad issue of the data you need in the
second segment of the show. But just to play Devil's
Advocate with you on manfesting, the criticism of it is
that sooner or later, right when you're renfesting, it sounds
like it's good at the start, but it seems to
me if a few years later, as time passes, your
(10:27):
rents rise and if you had a mortgage then you
would have been basically even inflation will be helping you
as you because you own the home, So does it
weaken as time goes by? That initial sort of sugar
hit you get from the renfesting idea.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
It's a really good point to raise and the short
answers know with the right moves made. So I want
to give you a live example of the right moves,
but the numbers behind it. If I go through three
core reasons will help explain. The first core reason is
you usually when someone has a desire for a home
that they feel is better than what they can afford.
(11:06):
That particular part is what creates this satisfaction between, oh, look,
home is unaffordable. I can't go and achieve what I
want because it's not exactly what I desire versus the
position I'm in. And so with rent vesting, the step
one that you're doing is you're matching the desire to
the position that you're in. And it starts to have
(11:27):
a perfect match now because now you can have this
performance upsides, I can rent somewhere where I wanted to
live in. That first part is there for you. The
second part coming to now is your career and time.
As you map out income and age, it's close correlation
that is age and time and workforce and experience in
(11:48):
workforce builds income tends to as well. And so as
you're growing on the rent vesting journey and maybe you're
now getting the lifestyle upside that you didn't once have
and you're now investing in money, there is growth occurring,
not just financially in your actual investment, but there's growth
also occurring professionally. So now when you are returning to
(12:09):
the home buying goal, of the future. It's not the
same argent that was there at twenty five as he
is in thirty five and forty five, and so your
different capability allows you to now get closer match to
your preference and the home you want to live in.
The third part is rent vesting involves building wealth through
property across Australia with data, not by emotion or things
(12:32):
that feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I imagine since you're a buyer's agent that your notion of
the afteromen way to spend the money that becomes available
as a renvestor is to put it back into property.
You don't suggest to go outside property where we know
there's very good turns, for instance in the market of
double digits every year in recent times.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
No, you can actually do that. Even then, that could
still work under the rent vesting umbrella because you have
cash that's there that wasn't there before because it would
have gone into your own mortgage. Now you have a
lifestyle upside of the performance upside, and you have the
free flowing cash flow if you wanted to put it
to indexes and other things, and you still live the
same lifestyle of that multimillion dollar home, but not the
(13:14):
multimillion dollar mortgage. You can do that. At the end
of the day, rent vesting is your choice of where
you invest the money. But the main thing here is
this third part is as home prices have gone up,
rents have increased because you were a performance driven not
I'm going to get the best home I can in
my twenties or thirties for the income I have today.
You're able to have an outperformance and that outperformance will
(13:35):
come back and help you. And an example I can
think of with that is a couple i'd met by
the name of Danny and Ron. They were in banking
as she's an executive in the Big Four and if
you'd wind the clock back to twenty twenty, her budget
would have allowed her a unit to live in the
inner West of Sydney. Now that budget itself, whilst it
would have gotten her unit, that wasn't her ideal home
that she wanted. That it wasn't the ideal location that
(13:58):
she wanted, so she could have parked them in that way. Instead,
we purchased a property in Brisbane for five hundred and
sixty thousand, which has doubled in value in the five
years later. And then she'd use the equity to go
to three other locations. Now built over one point one
million dollars in equity across three point five million dollars
worth of assets in four different properties. So all of
this wealth building allows you to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Now what we must do is let our listeners hear
what Arjen has to say about using data to optimize
the notion of rent investing back in a moment. Hello,
Welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. Today's guest
(14:43):
is Arju and Padival, who is head of Investor Kit,
which is a buyer's advocate agency. He operates out of Sydney,
but it's a nationwide operation and I'm going to resist
asking you which is your favorite. I certainly wouldn't spend
a whole segment on it, but just quick before we
go into the issue of data. Everyone i'm on the
show in recent weeks has been asked one single question,
(15:05):
what city is the best value in the country at
the moment and the answer is.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I would say the answer is Melbourne.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Very good.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And you are now adding to the majority week by week. Yeah,
that's interesting. We're building a consensus here now about data
and collection of data the point I think in the
first part of the show, which was really interesting folks
with Arjun, was this notion of the perfect match in
the property. And if I've got it right, I mean,
I think what he's driving at is it's not just
(15:37):
the notion of re investing, and it's not just the
notion that you rent and you buy an investment property,
but because you're buying the property on strictly investment criteria,
you optimize your possibility of making the very best investment.
So a lot of it comes down to what and
where will I buy, which is nothing to do with
where I want to live? Is not it basically arguent?
(15:57):
So how do you approach that? And what data? You've
mentioned data a few times, what do you mean and
what do people look for for sure?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
So from a data perspective, the key thing to point
out that I believe in property is true is that
capital growth does not exist without competition. Capital growth as
an outcome is simply there because competition in a fewer
amount of houses for sale has created growth and someone
(16:26):
willing to pay more. And this multiple events happen again
and again, and new comparable sales arise at high amounts
and So when you understand that concept without any data
points or KEYAI terms, machine learning, or anything fancy behind it,
you now realize that what you're really looking for is
signals of data that points to high competition occurring, which
(16:47):
increases the likelihood of property prices to grow. Right, And
so when you're looking at that, there are really competition
in two parts of housing markets. One is the rental
market and one is the established market for sale. So
competition and the rental market can be shown by is
there a low amount of rental vacancy so vacancy rates
(17:08):
are low? Or secondly, is there are decreasing speed which
is increasing speed which is decreasing days on markets, which
means rental properties don't take on average two weeks to
find a tenant, they take on average one week to
find a tenant. Then, if we move on to the
sales data, is how many properties are there for sale
(17:30):
and the trend of those properties for sale. Is it
a decreasing trend of properties for sale at any one
point because there is more buying occurring, sales volumes increasing,
Is there a decreasing days on market because people don't
take two weeks to make a deal, they do it
in the first open or they don't take three or
four inspections, they're doing the first inspection. And is there
(17:53):
a listing price that now has far less discounts or
are having sales occur beyond the listing price. So there
are over thirty different data points we look at, but
if you just simplify to these three to five, you
have found competition and competition equals capital.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Growth, right, So maybe we just go through them.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
The obvious thing obviously in price days on market, that's
something you're looking at some of the sounds of it
very closely. What are the signals for you that this
suburb is going to fly basically or outperform.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Of course we'll do it as a dock point signals then,
So the first one is listing levels below five year averages,
so substantially lower levels of property listings in comparison to
what's normal. The second one is surging sales volumes, so
increasing number of deals happening. The third one is depending
(18:46):
on which cities, increasing auction clearance rates and above sixty
five percent auction clearance rates as a clear benchmark, but
increasing trainings as well. Then the fourth one is decrease
days on market, and if I had already mentioned that
when prior, this is just the time to sell and
it's getting faster or quite low. And then the fifth
(19:09):
one here is having lower levels of vendor discounting. They're
listing price in what percentage comes off it or a
positive vendor discount event the listing price, and how much
more it sells than it. And so if you just
use these five as a blanket statement, it's basically one paragraph.
Someone over the barbecue at the sausage ses are saying, hey, mate,
I'm at this market and I saw that it doesn't
(19:31):
have a lot of properties for sale. There's less properties
for sale today than there was five years ago. A
lot of people are buying properties in the suburb, and
they're actually buying it twenty percent more than there were
last year. And then on top of that, it used
to take a month to sell, it only takes two
weeks to sell property here on average. And then looking
at properties in this area, they used to have list
(19:51):
prices of eight hundred K and that often sell at
seven point fifty. But now the eight hundred k listings
are there and they're often selling at eight fifty to
nine hundred. So that's someone having a casual chat.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I wonder I had doubt, but I would be skeptical
about obviously says above the reserve, since there is underculting
in the market, and we know there is across the market,
and it's always a problem, especially when the market's starting
to lift. Which of your data points do you, at
the moment think is the most powerful.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
The most powerful data points? I would say it's an
equal tie between listings and sales volumes. But if I
was to use listings as an example, here's where that's important.
If you have listings well below a five year average
and it's extremely low levels, it means any sort of
interest or any sort of sales volumes or insights from
(20:43):
elsewhere will showcase that there's a lot of demand that
is showing against the supply that's there. Because it's all
relative to each other, you could have listings come down,
but if there is still a lot of transactions not happening,
then all of a sudden, that's still considered a lot
of list So you want to see those two data
points together. But the second part of sales volumes is
(21:04):
that if all of a sudden, you had fifty transactions
per month on average in a suburb, and then that
number is now eighty to one hundred. Well, either it
means a there is a lot more building supply that's
arrived in the market, a lot more properties for sale,
and they're just transacting at a higher amount, which is
a false positive, or it's the lower level of listings.
(21:25):
It's just transacting far more frequently because properties come on,
then they get off, then they come on, then they
get off. So these two data points would be the
most telling ones, and they flow on to all the
other indicators I've mentioned, because the other indicators don't get
faster unless these two move right.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Very good, very good, And if you are thinking of manterfesting,
obviously this is I suppose the point being are doing
is that when you're not thinking of buying a home,
you're thinking strictly rationally. Then you're thinking strictly on data points.
And if you find that perfect match of data points,
it doesn't really matter of where it is. I am
it sounds to me it doesn't matter where it is.
(22:03):
You could be in Sydney and you could find it's
in Brisbane, or you could be in Brisbane and find
it's in Perth or whatever is that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
This is an absolutely like the most critical point to
consider an investing. Too many myths go on that people
think your backyard or regional markets or other capital cities
aren't as good as the place you love and know
the bakeries, the cafes and the proximity to the city
of eighty five percent as pro totality data over the
(22:30):
last twenty five years of LGAs have had five percent
or greater compounding growth levels. And so if you now
took away the fifteen percent from those markets that did
not perform, and you took away towns with a single
industry economy, and then number two, you took away towns
(22:51):
that had a population of less than fifteen thousand that
had those LGAs present in you now are now taking
that number to above ninety five percent, which actually means
every city, town or suburb across Australia and when you
exclude those has its time in the sun one day.
And so your goal as an investor that's now national
(23:13):
and borderless, should be thinking about where a that time
is happening, because long term holds everywhere will do well eventually.
And then b, how can my portfolio create the greatest diversity,
because again, when something's happening in Adelaide and Brisbane doesn't
always mean it's happening in Sydney and Melbourne. They can
(23:34):
happen at different times, and the data suggests that when
you look at twenty twelve to twenty seventeen, Sydney Melbourne boomed,
but then when you look at twenty twenty to twenty
five Perth, Adelaide Brisbane substantially outperforms Sydney and Melbourne.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
That's right, that's right. Borderless.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I like that, borderless absolutely. Okay, we'll take a break
just before we go LGAs just in case our listeners
weren't familiar with the term.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
It means local government areas.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, local government aias.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Okay, so folks, all right, we'll be back. We have
some great questions which we have kept for today. Back
in the moment. Hello, Welcome back to The Australian's Money
Puzzle podcast. My guest today is Argent Paliwal from Investor Kid.
(24:22):
As you have probably discovered by now, a property expert,
a buyer's agent operates out of Sydney, and some very
interesting observations already on the show about rent investing. I
think it's a very convincing case Argent puts forward based
on his key observations about the optimization of that about
(24:45):
being borderless basically in your approach and having that strictly
financial rational approach to it which optimizes your chances basically.
And do keep in mind that. I thought it was
interesting also that Argian about the point that tax is favorable,
but it's not actually mandatory the tax. Your arguments are
not entirely based on tax. They're helped by the tax situation,
(25:05):
but they're not crucial, all right, Sus says. The biggest
barrier to downsizing and upsizing for that matter is stamp
duty in Victoria. It's yet another tax, and on indexed
I might add a real barrier to people having the
right size home. As an buyer's advocate said to me,
you should budget ten percent transaction cost of buying when
(25:26):
you have properties, and that's a huge disincentive. Yes, there
are disincentives, that's for sure, Sus. Thank you for that.
And obviously Victoria, with its menu of taxes ten particularly
different property taxes, has done itself no favors, certainly in
terms of investor sentiment or right. A question this time
from Tim, is it possible that by allowing new home
(25:49):
buyers into the market with a five percent deposit, that's
the that's the government's new five percent universal five percent
deposit first home scheme. Anyone anywhere can get their first
home with a five percent deposit, ten percent covered by
the government. Tim asks, does the government run the real
risk of negative equity in the future years? Falling rates
(26:09):
coupled with reduced deposits appear already to be pushing first
home buyer market upwards. I don't doubt this at all.
If you have people who were not expert and were
not familiar with the points you've been making, Arjen, and
they had ninety five percent mortgage, and if we have
many more people with the ninety five percent mortgage under
(26:30):
this scheme, does it create some new risks in the market?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
It depends for how long? And it depends how many
get going. I feel like there's a couple of things
to share here. Firstly, Australia's debt position overall presents a
low risk. We have just over two and a half
trillion dollars worth of debt in this country on houses
against over eleven trillion dollars of value, so most of
(26:58):
it still sits at a low loan to value ratio.
So if there was some movements in prices, it would
have to be so large for that ratio to come together,
and so many properties have to go online and not
sales for that to happen. But that's the first core
structure piece. The second part here is that when it
comes to those owner occupy or like those properties that
(27:18):
we have across the country or more than a third
of them actually have no debt individually, like a third
of houses or the ten point four million dwellings don't
have that, so it does take many more years of
high leverage debt with high volume of places, by the way,
which is only for a first home by segment up
to certain price points. It's not for everyone. So I
don't think structurally that problem there is as bad, but
(27:41):
I guess the key points to also mention that the
last forty five years of housing data, there have only
been ten events occur in which we've seen some national
house price steps, of which the largest one was actually
in recent times in twenty twenty two, where we had
like over nine percent did some some markets which which
really quickly came back, and so the largest amount of
(28:05):
dips has been that eight nine percent. Secondly, it wasn't
on all cities, it was on a select few. And
then thirdly it's only had ten events where we've seen
national price tips in forty five years. And so when
you think of the Australian housing market, it would have
to be some major shocks that causes that negative equity.
And if we look at long term compounding growth rates,
(28:26):
it's likely that within twelve months someone's ninety five percent
if the national averages play out, is suddenly down to
ninety percent loan by the nature of them paying down
and growth occurrent.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
We'll so the wider picture being Tim and thank you
for the question, Susan, Tim, and there are This is information,
of course, not advice. But the wider issue is that
there is actually substantial stability in the system, not just
because we have Opera or other regulators, but because, as
Argent points out, there's a substantial portion of the population
(28:57):
that have no household debt at all, which we don't
pay much attention to. They don't make the headlines, but
they probably do their bit to stabilize the market. Terrific, Hey,
Ardyne thank you very much for coming on the show.
Nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
That was Argent Pollowell of the Investor Kid group. Let's
have some more questions and comments. Always happy to have comments,
just like Susan's comments today. They're very good, they're very welcome.
You can ask multiple questions of course, anytime the Money
Puzzle at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Talk to you soon.
Hello, and welcome to the Australians Money Puzzle podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm James Kirby. Welcome aboard everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I don't think there's any segment actually of the residential
property market that has less attention and is quite as
significant as the concept of rent investing. You know, it's
a major social trend for aspiring home buyers. They don't
buy the home. They don't buy a home the first
time they buy. What they do is they purchase an
(00:37):
investment property. They get the tax deductions related to that,
and then they build up equity and it allows them
basically to lead frog into the house that the house
of their dreams, there forever home, as they call it.
I want to talk about this and I have someone
who's ideal for it. It's our June Paliwal of the
Investigate Group, which is a buyer's advocate group. First time
(00:59):
on the show, but I know I've been listening to
you on this issue. You're very good on it, so
I was I thought would be ideal way to bring
you in.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
How I are.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
June, Yes, great, my friend, and definitely a hot topic
at the moment the world of rent festing.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
It is a hard topic and you know more than that.
I mean, there's always been sort of anecdotal. One of
the frustrating things I think is that there's a lot
of anecdotal commentary about it. It's like the bank of
Mom and Dad. You know, everyone talks about it, but
it's very hard to get stats on it. But I
was listening recently to one of the bank results, the
Bendico Bank results, and the CEO there, in releasing the
(01:30):
results actually, you know, made clear reference to Richard Fennell.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
He made clear reference to.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Their observation as a bank of the number of people,
younger people now doing this rent vesting the rent basically
and own an investment property. And I think, intriguingly, there's
also a speculation in the market that the banks, more
than one are working on a product that will be
like basically aimed at this area rent vesting mortgages, and
(01:58):
that will really I think, move it up along the
line whatever they come up with. But you've really had
a look at it, and you, I mean broadly, you
think it's pretty good for the right people in the
right place. Is that would that be a fair comment?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Absolutely, it can play a key part of people's journey
to building wells and even transitioning to their end of
goal of buying a home. I am a personal success
story of that. I now live in my dream home.
So you definitely here to say that you don't have
to be a rent vestor forever, but it can be
a transitional journey that's an absolute game changer. And I
(02:31):
want to take you through very quickly some of my
own journey in earlier parts of my career, jumping in
and around different suburbs to essentially be living from a
performance and lifestyle basis. And I'll give you some examples
of performance performance being one of my properties that I
was renting at in the suburb of Bella Vista and
(02:51):
Sydney was about a thirty second walk from my office
in Bellavista and Sydney, So it was a growing phase
of career business things like that, So it allowed me
to have proximity time there and those extra hours. If
you do the math over a fifty weeks a year
or fifty two weeks, takeaways the man you leave. But
the key is that math of a few extra hours
(03:12):
per day around your different audience rather than traveling and
coming home, you're at the office and you're in and
around places of people you have greater performance.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It gives you that efficiency, both financial efficiency and living efficiency.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Now tell me you were talking particularly about the nature
of revesting that most of our listeners obviously would be
familiar with the broad term, and I'm sure it's worked
well for you, that's why you're on the show. But
you've made a particular observation that about reinvesting. You might
explain this to our listeners who wouldn't have heard it before,
the way it works with the yields being so low
(03:49):
in big cities, the yels are two or three percent.
Out in the bush, there are six seven eight percent
in country towns. But would you explain to our listeners
how it made your concept about where it makes more
sense to do this.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
For sure, let's do the math on it. So before
I talked about performance space for investing, of where proximity
gives you performance in your home, your lifestyle, your business,
your career. Now if you move that over to financial
analysis of renvesting, let's take a three million dollar home
and you might go, why is are you using a
three million dollar home? It's intentional for a very specific reason.
(04:26):
If someone was to have a eighty percent loan against
that or even a ninety percent if someone wants to
get there with lower deposits and an eighty percent loan
is two point four million, and at today's interest rates
of say five and a half percent, that's one hundred
and thirty two thousand of interest. We're not talking principle
where everyone talking about buying your place is pushing the
loan down. We're just talking about the interest itself. Now,
(04:49):
with that one hundred and thirty two thousand of interest,
if you divide that by fifty two, that's two thousand,
five hundred and thirty eight dollars a week. However, a
three million dollar property does not cost you two and
a half thousand dollars per week to rent. Usually, rental yields,
like in some suburbs of Sydney, can be as low
as two to three percent or even one point seven
(05:10):
to two and a half percent. So if we took
a two point two percent rental yield and divided that
by fifty two, that's about twelve hundred and seventy dollars
a week in rent versus you know, more than two
and a half thousand an interest alone, and you're not
talking council rates and other things I see.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So is the concept basically that the Australian property has
become so expensive in the metropolitan areas that the rental
yields are so low that there's actually an opportunity for
the agile investor property investor to exploit this. But because
the yields are so poor for those very expensive subverbs
(05:49):
that if you want to the way to play it
is or to optimize that are exploited, is actually to
rent in it because you're actually getting a better deal
because rents have never kept pace with prices.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Is that the underlying.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Logic, absolutely the underlying logic. And so the thing here
is that the more premium the suburb is, the greater
the disparity between rental yield and actual interest on a
mortgage if you're owning. So if you're going to live
in a regional part of Australia in the most affordable
suburb in a unit, it's likely that the rat was
(06:23):
yields high, so rate vesting might not be for you
if you plan to live in that location for some time.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So that's the flip side of what we're saying. Right,
there's the logical flip side of what we're saying. Absolutely,
then in areas where the property prices are not so
relatively high, the deal on rent isn't as good. And
we know that because the rents are six seven percent
or whatever, while in the middle of the city is
there are two and three percent. It's a really good theory,
not just theory. It's a really good I am sure
(06:49):
for many people. It has a lot of pluses. Now
let's go a little bit deeper. If the person is
deciding to do this rent vest and they say, Okay,
we know how we're we're going to buy a good
investment property in their city, it's going to we know
this suburb is on the rise. We don't actually want
to live in that soburb. We want to live this
(07:10):
other suburb which is more expensive and is also close
to where we work, and we can cycle over something
like that. Okay, that all makes sense, but let's just
have a look at it more closely. Now, should the
renvestor then should they do interest only? It would seem
to me that that's probably on the table here.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Absolutely, So, I think firstly, each financial position would be
different betweening on the goals that they're after and seeking
their own advice and guidance. But when you look at
investment debt and the renvestor is now renting in that
great premium location for performance, lifestyle and financially, the next
thing is what they do with their money. Because they
still have capital that isn't tied.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Up, they must invest to make it work. I am
acting our joy. Absolutely, they can't go and spend it
on a boat. That blows your theory pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I imagine you're spot on right. Renting has its advantages,
but the money needs to go to work, right and
when you're going to work with that money. Yes, the
interest on those investment related debts can be deductible, and
so if they're deductible, then making sure you're not just
pushing down that repayment in those early Welsh building stages
(08:18):
is actually, you know, not in your favor. You want
to actually have the debt that's there and focus on
every bit of dollar towards acquiring more assets, whether there
be in other vehicles or property or so forth. You
don't want to go and focus on taking all your
cash flow just to pay down debts whilst you're in
what I call an acquisition phase. The Welsh building phase.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Right, Yes, okay, so there's two things then in its favor.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
It seems to me.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
One is a natural market issue, as you mentioned about
the basically for investing, the value is explicit in expensive
what we call relatively expensive parts of the market because
the user a little. The second part then is the
tax advantage. How dependent on tax advantages specifically negative gearing
(09:06):
is the whole rent vesting notion.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
It plays a part. But even if there was no
tax advantages in favor from that negative gearing, there is
the wealth building advantage because the location that you're in
to live in from a lifestyle or maybe live in
what you can afford, because you can't live in that
premium location at all times. If you feel that that
cost is too high, ins why you're investing there. But
(09:31):
if you now went to another suburb and you decided
to pull all your money into buying a home to
live in, you've got to take a moment to question
tax advantages aside. Is there a location in Australia where
the data is better for me to actually invest in
than the place I'm going to sink money in, which
is the home And if that is better, you're now
(09:53):
actually onto something and renvesting can build your wealth faster
than the home you're in because that tax advantage does matter.
Now you already are going to actually focus on building
wealth with data, not just the tax advantage behind it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Very good, and we're going to have a look at
that broad issue of the data you need in the
second segment of the show. But just to play Devil's
Advocate with you on manfesting, the criticism of it is
that sooner or later, right when you're renfesting, it sounds
like it's good at the start, but it seems to
me if a few years later, as time passes, your
(10:27):
rents rise and if you had a mortgage then you
would have been basically even inflation will be helping you
as you because you own the home, So does it
weaken as time goes by? That initial sort of sugar
hit you get from the renfesting idea.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
It's a really good point to raise and the short
answers know with the right moves made. So I want
to give you a live example of the right moves,
but the numbers behind it. If I go through three
core reasons will help explain. The first core reason is
you usually when someone has a desire for a home
that they feel is better than what they can afford.
(11:06):
That particular part is what creates this satisfaction between, oh, look,
home is unaffordable. I can't go and achieve what I
want because it's not exactly what I desire versus the
position I'm in. And so with rent vesting, the step
one that you're doing is you're matching the desire to
the position that you're in. And it starts to have
(11:27):
a perfect match now because now you can have this
performance upsides, I can rent somewhere where I wanted to
live in. That first part is there for you. The
second part coming to now is your career and time.
As you map out income and age, it's close correlation
that is age and time and workforce and experience in
(11:48):
workforce builds income tends to as well. And so as
you're growing on the rent vesting journey and maybe you're
now getting the lifestyle upside that you didn't once have
and you're now investing in money, there is growth occurring,
not just financially in your actual investment, but there's growth
also occurring professionally. So now when you are returning to
(12:09):
the home buying goal, of the future. It's not the
same argent that was there at twenty five as he
is in thirty five and forty five, and so your
different capability allows you to now get closer match to
your preference and the home you want to live in.
The third part is rent vesting involves building wealth through
property across Australia with data, not by emotion or things
(12:32):
that feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I imagine since you're a buyer's agent that your notion of
the afteromen way to spend the money that becomes available
as a renvestor is to put it back into property.
You don't suggest to go outside property where we know
there's very good turns, for instance in the market of
double digits every year in recent times.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
No, you can actually do that. Even then, that could
still work under the rent vesting umbrella because you have
cash that's there that wasn't there before because it would
have gone into your own mortgage. Now you have a
lifestyle upside of the performance upside, and you have the
free flowing cash flow if you wanted to put it
to indexes and other things, and you still live the
same lifestyle of that multimillion dollar home, but not the
(13:14):
multimillion dollar mortgage. You can do that. At the end
of the day, rent vesting is your choice of where
you invest the money. But the main thing here is
this third part is as home prices have gone up,
rents have increased because you were a performance driven not
I'm going to get the best home I can in
my twenties or thirties for the income I have today.
You're able to have an outperformance and that outperformance will
(13:35):
come back and help you. And an example I can
think of with that is a couple i'd met by
the name of Danny and Ron. They were in banking
as she's an executive in the Big Four and if
you'd wind the clock back to twenty twenty, her budget
would have allowed her a unit to live in the
inner West of Sydney. Now that budget itself, whilst it
would have gotten her unit, that wasn't her ideal home
that she wanted. That it wasn't the ideal location that
(13:58):
she wanted, so she could have parked them in that way. Instead,
we purchased a property in Brisbane for five hundred and
sixty thousand, which has doubled in value in the five
years later. And then she'd use the equity to go
to three other locations. Now built over one point one
million dollars in equity across three point five million dollars
worth of assets in four different properties. So all of
this wealth building allows you to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Now what we must do is let our listeners hear
what Arjen has to say about using data to optimize
the notion of rent investing back in a moment. Hello,
Welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. Today's guest
(14:43):
is Arju and Padival, who is head of Investor Kit,
which is a buyer's advocate agency. He operates out of Sydney,
but it's a nationwide operation and I'm going to resist
asking you which is your favorite. I certainly wouldn't spend
a whole segment on it, but just quick before we
go into the issue of data. Everyone i'm on the
show in recent weeks has been asked one single question,
(15:05):
what city is the best value in the country at
the moment and the answer is.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I would say the answer is Melbourne.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Very good.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And you are now adding to the majority week by week. Yeah,
that's interesting. We're building a consensus here now about data
and collection of data the point I think in the
first part of the show, which was really interesting folks
with Arjun, was this notion of the perfect match in
the property. And if I've got it right, I mean,
I think what he's driving at is it's not just
(15:37):
the notion of re investing, and it's not just the
notion that you rent and you buy an investment property,
but because you're buying the property on strictly investment criteria,
you optimize your possibility of making the very best investment.
So a lot of it comes down to what and
where will I buy, which is nothing to do with
where I want to live? Is not it basically arguent?
(15:57):
So how do you approach that? And what data? You've
mentioned data a few times, what do you mean and
what do people look for for sure?
Speaker 3 (16:05):
So from a data perspective, the key thing to point
out that I believe in property is true is that
capital growth does not exist without competition. Capital growth as
an outcome is simply there because competition in a fewer
amount of houses for sale has created growth and someone
(16:26):
willing to pay more. And this multiple events happen again
and again, and new comparable sales arise at high amounts
and So when you understand that concept without any data
points or KEYAI terms, machine learning, or anything fancy behind it,
you now realize that what you're really looking for is
signals of data that points to high competition occurring, which
(16:47):
increases the likelihood of property prices to grow. Right, And
so when you're looking at that, there are really competition
in two parts of housing markets. One is the rental
market and one is the established market for sale. So
competition and the rental market can be shown by is
there a low amount of rental vacancy so vacancy rates
(17:08):
are low? Or secondly, is there are decreasing speed which
is increasing speed which is decreasing days on markets, which
means rental properties don't take on average two weeks to
find a tenant, they take on average one week to
find a tenant. Then, if we move on to the
sales data, is how many properties are there for sale
(17:30):
and the trend of those properties for sale. Is it
a decreasing trend of properties for sale at any one
point because there is more buying occurring, sales volumes increasing,
Is there a decreasing days on market because people don't
take two weeks to make a deal, they do it
in the first open or they don't take three or
four inspections, they're doing the first inspection. And is there
(17:53):
a listing price that now has far less discounts or
are having sales occur beyond the listing price. So there
are over thirty different data points we look at, but
if you just simplify to these three to five, you
have found competition and competition equals capital.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Growth, right, So maybe we just go through them.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
The obvious thing obviously in price days on market, that's
something you're looking at some of the sounds of it
very closely. What are the signals for you that this
suburb is going to fly basically or outperform.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Of course we'll do it as a dock point signals then,
So the first one is listing levels below five year averages,
so substantially lower levels of property listings in comparison to
what's normal. The second one is surging sales volumes, so
increasing number of deals happening. The third one is depending
(18:46):
on which cities, increasing auction clearance rates and above sixty
five percent auction clearance rates as a clear benchmark, but
increasing trainings as well. Then the fourth one is decrease
days on market, and if I had already mentioned that
when prior, this is just the time to sell and
it's getting faster or quite low. And then the fifth
(19:09):
one here is having lower levels of vendor discounting. They're
listing price in what percentage comes off it or a
positive vendor discount event the listing price, and how much
more it sells than it. And so if you just
use these five as a blanket statement, it's basically one paragraph.
Someone over the barbecue at the sausage ses are saying, hey, mate,
I'm at this market and I saw that it doesn't
(19:31):
have a lot of properties for sale. There's less properties
for sale today than there was five years ago. A
lot of people are buying properties in the suburb, and
they're actually buying it twenty percent more than there were
last year. And then on top of that, it used
to take a month to sell, it only takes two
weeks to sell property here on average. And then looking
at properties in this area, they used to have list
(19:51):
prices of eight hundred K and that often sell at
seven point fifty. But now the eight hundred k listings
are there and they're often selling at eight fifty to
nine hundred. So that's someone having a casual chat.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I wonder I had doubt, but I would be skeptical
about obviously says above the reserve, since there is underculting
in the market, and we know there is across the market,
and it's always a problem, especially when the market's starting
to lift. Which of your data points do you, at
the moment think is the most powerful.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
The most powerful data points? I would say it's an
equal tie between listings and sales volumes. But if I
was to use listings as an example, here's where that's important.
If you have listings well below a five year average
and it's extremely low levels, it means any sort of
interest or any sort of sales volumes or insights from
(20:43):
elsewhere will showcase that there's a lot of demand that
is showing against the supply that's there. Because it's all
relative to each other, you could have listings come down,
but if there is still a lot of transactions not happening,
then all of a sudden, that's still considered a lot
of list So you want to see those two data
points together. But the second part of sales volumes is
(21:04):
that if all of a sudden, you had fifty transactions
per month on average in a suburb, and then that
number is now eighty to one hundred. Well, either it
means a there is a lot more building supply that's
arrived in the market, a lot more properties for sale,
and they're just transacting at a higher amount, which is
a false positive, or it's the lower level of listings.
(21:25):
It's just transacting far more frequently because properties come on,
then they get off, then they come on, then they
get off. So these two data points would be the
most telling ones, and they flow on to all the
other indicators I've mentioned, because the other indicators don't get
faster unless these two move right.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Very good, very good, And if you are thinking of manterfesting,
obviously this is I suppose the point being are doing
is that when you're not thinking of buying a home,
you're thinking strictly rationally. Then you're thinking strictly on data points.
And if you find that perfect match of data points,
it doesn't really matter of where it is. I am
it sounds to me it doesn't matter where it is.
(22:03):
You could be in Sydney and you could find it's
in Brisbane, or you could be in Brisbane and find
it's in Perth or whatever is that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
This is an absolutely like the most critical point to
consider an investing. Too many myths go on that people
think your backyard or regional markets or other capital cities
aren't as good as the place you love and know
the bakeries, the cafes and the proximity to the city
of eighty five percent as pro totality data over the
(22:30):
last twenty five years of LGAs have had five percent
or greater compounding growth levels. And so if you now
took away the fifteen percent from those markets that did
not perform, and you took away towns with a single
industry economy, and then number two, you took away towns
(22:51):
that had a population of less than fifteen thousand that
had those LGAs present in you now are now taking
that number to above ninety five percent, which actually means
every city, town or suburb across Australia and when you
exclude those has its time in the sun one day.
And so your goal as an investor that's now national
(23:13):
and borderless, should be thinking about where a that time
is happening, because long term holds everywhere will do well eventually.
And then b, how can my portfolio create the greatest diversity,
because again, when something's happening in Adelaide and Brisbane doesn't
always mean it's happening in Sydney and Melbourne. They can
(23:34):
happen at different times, and the data suggests that when
you look at twenty twelve to twenty seventeen, Sydney Melbourne boomed,
but then when you look at twenty twenty to twenty
five Perth, Adelaide Brisbane substantially outperforms Sydney and Melbourne.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
That's right, that's right. Borderless.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I like that, borderless absolutely. Okay, we'll take a break
just before we go LGAs just in case our listeners
weren't familiar with the term.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
It means local government areas.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, local government aias.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Okay, so folks, all right, we'll be back. We have
some great questions which we have kept for today. Back
in the moment. Hello, Welcome back to The Australian's Money
Puzzle podcast. My guest today is Argent Paliwal from Investor Kid.
(24:22):
As you have probably discovered by now, a property expert,
a buyer's agent operates out of Sydney, and some very
interesting observations already on the show about rent investing. I
think it's a very convincing case Argent puts forward based
on his key observations about the optimization of that about
(24:45):
being borderless basically in your approach and having that strictly
financial rational approach to it which optimizes your chances basically.
And do keep in mind that. I thought it was
interesting also that Argian about the point that tax is favorable,
but it's not actually mandatory the tax. Your arguments are
not entirely based on tax. They're helped by the tax situation,
(25:05):
but they're not crucial, all right, Sus says. The biggest
barrier to downsizing and upsizing for that matter is stamp
duty in Victoria. It's yet another tax, and on indexed
I might add a real barrier to people having the
right size home. As an buyer's advocate said to me,
you should budget ten percent transaction cost of buying when
(25:26):
you have properties, and that's a huge disincentive. Yes, there
are disincentives, that's for sure, Sus. Thank you for that.
And obviously Victoria, with its menu of taxes ten particularly
different property taxes, has done itself no favors, certainly in
terms of investor sentiment or right. A question this time
from Tim, is it possible that by allowing new home
(25:49):
buyers into the market with a five percent deposit, that's
the that's the government's new five percent universal five percent
deposit first home scheme. Anyone anywhere can get their first
home with a five percent deposit, ten percent covered by
the government. Tim asks, does the government run the real
risk of negative equity in the future years? Falling rates
(26:09):
coupled with reduced deposits appear already to be pushing first
home buyer market upwards. I don't doubt this at all.
If you have people who were not expert and were
not familiar with the points you've been making, Arjen, and
they had ninety five percent mortgage, and if we have
many more people with the ninety five percent mortgage under
(26:30):
this scheme, does it create some new risks in the market?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
It depends for how long? And it depends how many
get going. I feel like there's a couple of things
to share here. Firstly, Australia's debt position overall presents a
low risk. We have just over two and a half
trillion dollars worth of debt in this country on houses
against over eleven trillion dollars of value, so most of
(26:58):
it still sits at a low loan to value ratio.
So if there was some movements in prices, it would
have to be so large for that ratio to come together,
and so many properties have to go online and not
sales for that to happen. But that's the first core
structure piece. The second part here is that when it
comes to those owner occupy or like those properties that
(27:18):
we have across the country or more than a third
of them actually have no debt individually, like a third
of houses or the ten point four million dwellings don't
have that, so it does take many more years of
high leverage debt with high volume of places, by the way,
which is only for a first home by segment up
to certain price points. It's not for everyone. So I
don't think structurally that problem there is as bad, but
(27:41):
I guess the key points to also mention that the
last forty five years of housing data, there have only
been ten events occur in which we've seen some national
house price steps, of which the largest one was actually
in recent times in twenty twenty two, where we had
like over nine percent did some some markets which which
really quickly came back, and so the largest amount of
(28:05):
dips has been that eight nine percent. Secondly, it wasn't
on all cities, it was on a select few. And
then thirdly it's only had ten events where we've seen
national price tips in forty five years. And so when
you think of the Australian housing market, it would have
to be some major shocks that causes that negative equity.
And if we look at long term compounding growth rates,
(28:26):
it's likely that within twelve months someone's ninety five percent
if the national averages play out, is suddenly down to
ninety percent loan by the nature of them paying down
and growth occurrent.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
We'll so the wider picture being Tim and thank you
for the question, Susan, Tim, and there are This is information,
of course, not advice. But the wider issue is that
there is actually substantial stability in the system, not just
because we have Opera or other regulators, but because, as
Argent points out, there's a substantial portion of the population
(28:57):
that have no household debt at all, which we don't
pay much attention to. They don't make the headlines, but
they probably do their bit to stabilize the market. Terrific, Hey,
Ardyne thank you very much for coming on the show.
Nice to have you on.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
That was Argent Pollowell of the Investor Kid group. Let's
have some more questions and comments. Always happy to have comments,
just like Susan's comments today. They're very good, they're very welcome.
You can ask multiple questions of course, anytime the Money
Puzzle at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Talk to you soon.
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