March 18, 2014 • 38 mins
This week on The One You Feed we have Brian Koppelman.
Brian Koppelman is an American screenwriter, novelist, director, and producer. Best known as the co-writer of Ocean's Thirteen and Rounders, Koppelman has also produced films such as The Illusionist and The Lucky Ones as well as directed films such as Solitary Man.
He was an A&R representative from 1988-1997 for such companies as Elektra Records, Giant Records, SBK Records and EMI Records, during which time he discovered singer songwriter Tracy Chapman and executive-produced her first album.
He is also the creator of the excellent video series called The Six Second Screenwriter and the host of the new podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppelman.
Brian is also one of the kindest guys out there. He is genuinely curious about life and people. We really enjoyed our conversation.
In This Interview Brian and I Discuss...
The One You Feed parable, although a bit later than usual.
How he got his start as a screenwriter and writing his first script, Rounders.
Why working everyday is so important.
The power of momentum.
Specific practices he does to feed his good wolf.
How our intentions tell us a lot about which wolf we are feeding.
The importance of art in a good life.
A great fiction recommendation from Brian.
How denying your creative side can turn you toxic
His new podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppelman.
Some of his pivotal moments in life.
How stand-up comedy helped him face his fears and finish the script he was stuck on.
WTF and Marc Maron.
Curiosity.
Music we love.
Brian Koppelman Links
Brian Koppelman homepage
The Six Second Screenwriting Lessons
The Moment with Brian Koppelman podcast
Brian Koppelman IMDb profile
Brian's article about WTF and Jim Breuer
Twitter- @briankoppelman
City of Thieves, Brian's book recommendation
Some of our most popular interviews you might also enjoy:
Mike Scott of the Waterboys
Todd Henry- author of Die Empty
Randy Scott Hyde
Brian Koppelman is an American screenwriter, novelist, director, and producer. Best known as the co-writer of Ocean's Thirteen and Rounders, Koppelman has also produced films such as The Illusionist and The Lucky Ones as well as directed films such as Solitary Man.
He was an A&R representative from 1988-1997 for such companies as Elektra Records, Giant Records, SBK Records and EMI Records, during which time he discovered singer songwriter Tracy Chapman and executive-produced her first album.
He is also the creator of the excellent video series called The Six Second Screenwriter and the host of the new podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppelman.
Brian is also one of the kindest guys out there. He is genuinely curious about life and people. We really enjoyed our conversation.
In This Interview Brian and I Discuss...
The One You Feed parable, although a bit later than usual.
How he got his start as a screenwriter and writing his first script, Rounders.
Why working everyday is so important.
The power of momentum.
Specific practices he does to feed his good wolf.
How our intentions tell us a lot about which wolf we are feeding.
The importance of art in a good life.
A great fiction recommendation from Brian.
How denying your creative side can turn you toxic
His new podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppelman.
Some of his pivotal moments in life.
How stand-up comedy helped him face his fears and finish the script he was stuck on.
WTF and Marc Maron.
Curiosity.
Music we love.
Brian Koppelman Links
Brian Koppelman homepage
The Six Second Screenwriting Lessons
The Moment with Brian Koppelman podcast
Brian Koppelman IMDb profile
Brian's article about WTF and Jim Breuer
Twitter- @briankoppelman
City of Thieves, Brian's book recommendation
Some of our most popular interviews you might also enjoy:
Mike Scott of the Waterboys
Todd Henry- author of Die Empty
Randy Scott Hyde
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you're somebody who has it in you, this burning
secret desire to do some kind of creative work. If
you don't, you turn toxic. Welcome to the one you feed.
(00:21):
Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
you are what you think ring true. And yet for
many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
see what we don't have instead of what we do.
(00:43):
We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
(01:14):
episode is Brian Koppelman. He's a Hollywood writer, director, and
occasional producer. Some of his movies are Rounders, Solitary Man,
Knock Around Guys, Oceans Thirteen, and The Illusionist. He creates
the six second screenwriting lessons on Vine, which are a
great inspiration for artists of any kind. He's also the
host of an excellent new grant Land podcast called The
(01:37):
Moment with Brian Koppelman. Welcome to the show, Brian. It's
my pleasure to be here, guys, thanks for having me.
I thought we'd start off with maybe you're telling us
a little bit about how you became a screenwriter, because
I think you came to it a little bit later
than than some people to do, and I'm curious to
(01:57):
the journey that got you there. H happy to talk
about it. I'm so glad you didn't hit me with
the what the expression the one you feed means, because
I've been really stressing about having to answer it. I'll
come back to it, doory. But I became a screenwriter,
and I uh, right around when I turned thirty. Um,
I got to a point in my life where, um,
(02:21):
it became it became clear to me that what I
was doing wasn't I wasn't really living my dream and
I wasn't really living to what I felt was, you know,
like the fullest my capacity. And I had just had
um when I was twenty nine. My son was born,
(02:41):
our son, or first child, and I realized I wanted
to be the kind of dad who would come home
at night and and tell his kids to chase their
dream and to you know that that it's true that
you can if you work hard enough, UH and are
clear enough, you could be anything you want to be.
And I realized I wasn't living that, and so I
would be able to really say it, and I didn't
(03:02):
want to turn bitter. And I knew that I had
to be creating. I didn't know if it meant I
had to be a screenwriter or a novelist or stand
up comedian, but I knew I had I had to
start really creating from my life and UH and made
(03:22):
the decision to do it. And shortly thereafter UM, I
went and spoke to my lifelong best friend David Levine
and and he was working as a bartender and was writing,
and we made a commitment that we're going to figure
out how to write something together. And soon within a
(03:43):
few months of that, I walked into a poker club
late at night and I left that clag I cleaned
out and I left that club. In the middle of
the night. I called Dave and I said, I think
I know the setting for this for this first movie
that we're going to write and that was that was
ers right, it was, and we we made this commitment
to one another. We researched it. We spent a lot
(04:05):
of time in the clubs. We really read every book
on poker that existed, and watched every videotape of every
world series of poker. This is before there was a
whole card camp. And then once we were ready to write,
we committed to meeting every morning before I would go
to work and after he tends to bar. And we
worked for two hours a day, five days a week,
(04:25):
and never missed a day until we finished the screenplay.
And they did you have it? You guys were not
in the Hollywood infrastructure. How challenging was it for you
to sell the script? You know? Ours is a weird
story because Um David had met a young manager. When
Dave got out of college, he went out to Hollywood.
(04:46):
He worked for a couple of years as an assistant
and Um had met some people, met a young manager
who had never sold anything. Maybe it's sold one TV movie.
And he sent our script to that guy whose name
is Seth Jared, and Seth said, I know this is
a movie. I can sell this, And Um it got
(05:06):
rejected by every single agency in Hollywood. SETH got it
to big people at every agency. They all rejected it.
But then very shortly thereafter, um, he got it in
the hands of a producer, a woman named Tracy Falco,
who worked for this director Ted Demi, who's who was
a great guy who died ten years ago. And uh,
(05:28):
and they got it into Harvey Weinstein's hands. And so
although for us it felt like nothing but rejection because
we just had a ton of rejection quickly, the truth
is we finished the script on like January one or second, um,
and then uh, we were in production. It was purchased
(05:48):
by Mirramax on March three, and we were in production
December fift of the same year. So ours was not
a typical story nor a typical ride. Yeah, that's that's
pretty quick. Yeah was it was really you know, it
was amazing in a way. Dave and I were you know,
I was thirty and he was, I guess twenty eight
and turns twenty nine. When when we were doing it,
we weren't like people who were just out of college
(06:10):
and had this you know idea they were going to write.
I mean it, we really approached it with an incredible
amount of focus and determination, and I think we were
at it for really the right reasons, which was we
found a story we were dying to tell. We knew
this was our chance to really be storytellers, and we
really gave it everything that we had. And you've got
(06:32):
the the six second screenwriting lessons that you do and
and a lot of those seemed to revolve around sort
of exactly what you just said, which is about just
doing the work, about committing yourself, being disciplined, and doing
it no matter what. That seems to be one theme
that that crops up pretty regularly. Well, it's so it's
(06:52):
one of the only things that you have control over, right,
I mean, if if you want to be in the arts,
so much of it um the way your work is received,
who chooses to read it, the mood that they're in
when when they read it. You can't control any of that.
You can try to improve your odds various ways, but
(07:14):
the but one thing you can control is showing up
every day and working with focus and passion and discipline.
And you can choose your subject matter and you can
choose the art form. So it's like if you make
those choices and you put everything you have into you know,
doing those you're just giving yourself the best chance to
(07:38):
a few different things happen. One you stop being so
results oriented. You become really focused on doing the work.
If you're there every day. That doesn't mean late at night,
you know, in the afternoon walking around you don't daydream.
We all daydream, We all sort of. I think it's
a healthy thing to visualize and think about, you know what,
what can what can happen positively, But you take so
(08:01):
much of the fear and insecurity away by by doing
it and every day and and so I just found
that because I was I mean one thing I didn't say.
But why it took me song, why I was thirty
and reached this crisis point is I was a blocked writer.
I was a blocked creative. I was what Julia Cameron,
who wrote The Artist Way, calls a shadow artist. I
worked in the music business. I was an A and
(08:23):
R guy. I was a producer in the studio with artists,
and I always felt though I should be doing it,
but I was terrified to do it. I was terrified
of not being able to, you know, terrified of not
being able to uh, you know, capture what was in
my head and somehow get it out onto the page.
(08:44):
And so it's never been an easy thing for me.
Still it's not easy to sit down and do the
work all the time. But I find if you do
it on Monday, it's easier, you know, when you get
there on Tuesday. And so if I can, you know,
if I can help people understand and make that initial
will breakthrough of hey, I'm gonna do it, uh every day,
(09:04):
I think I think it's a very useful thing to do. Yeah,
that that's a theme that we we seem to keep
hearing the same sorts of themes on the show as
we as we talk about this idea of feeding your
good wolf, and that is one of them that comes
up a lot, which is just doing the work, whether
you think about it, whether you feel like it, whether
(09:24):
that work being your creative work, whether that work be
the things that you know you need to do to
take care of yourself, doing that work. And then the
other one that you mentioned there that I think is
so important is the idea of momentum. If you get moving,
it's it's so much easier to keep moving and getting
started from a dead stop is really challenging. It's true.
(09:45):
I mean that's something that I took from uh. I mean,
if you've if you've watched my videos or um you
know the six second screen running things are read in
my blog, you'll you'll know that I UM, I'm really
not somebody who believes in in the idea of gurus
or who believes that are some authority that can you
need to give you permission. But I will say from
me UM, when I was around that age, I read
(10:07):
um Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins, and I found,
uh that a lot of stuff Tony talked about about,
you know, making a decision and then taking action, and
then taking action every day. It was exactly what I
needed to hear. And it's all about creating that kind
of positive momentum for yourself. You know, it doesn't mean
(10:28):
that you're going to succeed, right, it doesn't mean that
you're going to have the particular gift at the thing.
But when you get in the habit of being able
to focus and commit um, then when you find that
thing that marries your passion to your ability, you'll be
able to manifest it in a way that otherwise you
might not be able to yeah, exactly, and that I
(10:48):
like what you said there because that that discipline does
translate from one thing to the other as you as
you learn to be more disciplined in one area of
your life, you can apply it to others. Not to uh,
(11:19):
not to induce too much stress. But I gotta go
back to the wolf parable, because that's that's what the
show is, and I've I've abdicated my duties as host
at this point. What my what my partner has given
me the look for so um. The podcast is called
The One You Feed, and it is based on the
parable of the two Wolves, where one of them is uh,
(11:40):
where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and
he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us.
One is a good wolf and it represents things like
kindness and love and bravery, and the other is a
bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and sorrow.
And the grandson stops and he thinks that he says, well, grandfather,
(12:00):
which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed?
So I am interested in what that means to you
in your life and in your work that you do well.
I do think it's it's uh, it's actually a very
clear parable. I mean that's why when I was kind
of joking when I said I was stressing about answering it.
But what I mean is that I think that the
(12:22):
answers I've heard on on your show are fairly consistent
in a way. And um, because you're you've chosen to
mostly interview people who have found a way to thrive
at something and have found a way to um, you know,
to feed, to feed the good wolf to the best
of their ability. You know, in Hollywood where I sometimes work, um,
(12:45):
the town is trying to feed the other wolf all
the time. So UM, I mean, I'll tell you the
practical things I do, right, I think what everyone says
on your show is true about focusing you know, on
the work, focusing outer uh you know, keeping me like
as a creator, not being self indulgent. But I do
like certain great practical things. I meditate twice a day,
(13:07):
I practice transidental meditation. UM, I take long walks, I
journal every day. I spent a lot of time with
my family. Um. I you know, I do all sorts
of stuff to keep me, like listening to the good
voice and to nurture and feed it to the best
of my ability. Um. And so that's you know what
(13:30):
what that means to me. I mean, I think becoming
a parent, if you are a person who has a
heart at all, I mean my my my wife and
my two kids are truly the focus of my existence.
And you know that immediately makes you sort of like
outer directed and makes you feed the good wolf because
you have these examples in front of you, these uh,
(13:53):
these you know, blank slates who are going to learn
everything from what and you do and how you do it.
And so you know, to me, it's simple that I
would just say to me, it's a it's been a
simple thing, um, you know, to try to to try
my best to be to be good. You know, yeah,
it is simple. But as someone once said, it's there's
(14:13):
a big difference between knowing something and doing something. I
do think it's true. By the way, I think the
parable is true, and you can see examples of it everywhere. Um.
And by the way, I think all of us do
feed the other wall from time to time, right, I
mean we all. I think it'd be a lie to
say that you never do anything out of a less
(14:35):
than noble intention. Um, you know, and when you know
you do what I do for a living. Um, and
from you know, uh you I think it's important to
stay just aware of why you do it, what you're
trying to connect to uh. And I think if you
do that, it enables you to to tune down those
(14:57):
other instincts or ideas. I agree, and that's a large
part of the reason for doing the show was these ideas.
There's nothing ground by breaking a revolutionary in them. It's
remembering to do it consistently and remembering to go back
to those things that I struggle with. It's easy to
get carried away with with things that don't serve us
(15:19):
very well, and I need the reminder. It's it's amazing
to me that I do as many times as I've
learned it, but that seems to be my default pattern. Yeah, well,
we all what do you do? Do you what kind
of practice do you like? Do you meditate? Do you walk?
Do you run? How do you how do you handle it? Yeah? Um,
actually I am. I am in the midst of the
(15:40):
best best I've ever been at meditating. I've been an
on and off meditator for for years, and I seem
to be in the middle of a really good everyday streak,
which I've never been able to do consistently. So that's
a that's a big one. I think that UM exercises
another big one for me. It makes it makes a
dramatic difference in my in my mental state. I used
(16:04):
to do it, I think because I cared about how
I looked, and now it's far more about I care
about how I feel, and exercises one are the best
ways to do that. I mean. The intention behind that
is a great sort of illustration of the idea. Right,
It's that you're doing the same thing, but the reason
for doing it completely changes in a way, which wolf
you're feeding. Now there's anything wrong about trying to look good,
(16:24):
But I mean, that's I think a really great answer.
Oh the other things that I do, you know, I
I try to surround myself with like um art broadly
defined art that moves me. So I try to listen
to and I listen to great music. I listen to
podcast that really uh in some way I have the
capacity to move or engage me. I'm always reading. This year,
(16:47):
I made a big promise to myself to read more fiction.
I grew up fiction was like a central part of
my life. And then as you get a little bit
older and you right for living, sometimes it's easier to
read nonfiction. It engages you in a different way. And
I really committed my one year's resolution. I don't believe
in them, but the one that I sort of promise
I made was to try to read at least one
(17:09):
really good book of fiction every month, So to read
twelve books this year, um not nonfiction. And I can
tell you already that's having a huge ramifications for me
in a positive way. Yeah, that's a great idea. I've
been reflecting on that that I used to read fiction
so much and got a lot out of it, and
over the last several years that's everything I read is
(17:30):
is nonfiction of some sort for various different reasons. And
I've realized that I missed that just reading a book
of fiction, that that is good and that illuminates, um
the human condition in a little bit different way than
than I would normally think about it or see it.
Have either of you guys ever read this book called
(17:50):
City of Thieves by David Benioff. I haven't. He's uh.
He and his partner Dan Wisse are the guys who
created right Um Game of Throne, but Benny Off's novel
Um is incredible books set in Russia during the war,
and um, it's really I gotta say it's it's uh.
(18:11):
It speaks to your themes in an incredibly beautiful way,
and uh uh. I've never recommended the book to anyone
who didn't make it a point to thank me and
then send it to ten people. So that's my recommendation
of a book for you guys and for the people
listening City at Thieves. David benning Off excellent, thank me,
We'll we'll put it on the list. I wanted to
circle back to something that you talked about there when
(18:32):
when we were describing when we were discussing the Wolf
Parable and you talked about that it's very easy when
you have a family to sort of give you that
outer direction and do all that. But I've also read
a blog post that you have and I think this
is a paradox. It's difficult to balance, which is why
I want to talk more about it. You talk about
how finding time to do your art is really important,
(18:56):
and how sometimes that's initially when you jump onto a
creative project seen as being selfish, and you had a
slightly different view of it than it being selfish, and
I wonder if you could walk us through that. Sure. Well,
I'm so lucky. My wife is a novelist and um
a great novelist named Amy Compleman, and her books you
(19:16):
should get to on Amazon. They're dark, but really powerful
and worth your time. But when I Amy was constantly
encouraging me to do this, and I mean we've been married,
uh like twenty two years, and so we were newly pretty,
you know, not so newly married a couple of years
when I said, hey, I'm really thinking I'm gonna do this,
(19:38):
and she kind of said finally, you know, and she
cleared out this storage space underneath our apartment, really just
a storage space like a slop sync in it, and
uh said, this is where your This is your office
to write this in before you go to work. And
Dave came over every day and we worked and this
I can't even I mean as a picture somewhere. It
is really just the last place you would think would
be your salvation, but it really he became this incredible
(20:02):
oasis for us to do this work. And so what
I what I say in that blog post which is
up at Brian Hopperman dot com. Is that is that
when you're somebody who has it in you, this burning
secret desire to do some kind of creative work, if
you don't, you turn toxic. And that in fact, that
(20:26):
toxicity UM is not just damaging to you, but it's
damaging to everybody around you. And so that even if
your kids, your family don't, they don't know what the
reason is, you start to turn. And so by doing
the by doing the creative work, the good thing, whether
(20:47):
that's um, you know, running a marathon, whatever your thing is, UM,
if it it gets rid of it's the one thing
that kind of cleanses that toxicity. So then the time
that you have to be around everybody, you're not secretly
wishing that you were doing your creative thing. But you know,
(21:07):
I didn't face that resistance from the people closest to me.
I only was rewarded for it. But that's because I,
you know, made this incredibly lucky decision when you're when
you get married young, I was, I think it's so
much luck to just happen to choose the right person UM,
and I made an incredibly good choice. And so I've
(21:28):
only had ever support for that but I have seen
how people around creative people react and the way it's
not just skepticism. What it is is it's triggering something
in them very often too, which is you know when
you finally start to do it, you see that that
people will it will scare them because they're afraid and
(21:50):
you're kind of calling them out, even if you don't
mean to call them out. That's why it can be
challenging to do, but it's it's worth it, you know.
Being an example, I can't tell you how many people,
once Dave I wrote our first screenplay and sold it,
how many people I know suddenly decided they could go
do it and tried to do it. Um. So I
guess that's why that's what I'm talking about in that
(22:11):
in that blog post. Does that make sense? So it
makes it makes total sense that that toxicity and resentment.
Really it is very easy to creep into into life
if you're not, at least for me, if I'm not
doing some of the things that that are important to me.
(22:45):
Speaking of creative outlets, you recently launched a new podcast
called The Moment with Brian Koppelman, which is is excellent.
You've had great guests so far and I wanted to
turn it on you. I wanted to ask you. The
podcast is about seminal moments in people's lives where sort
of everything hung in the balance and the direction they
(23:06):
chose to go was really really critical. And so I'd
like to ask you what the moment was or a
moment for you that you wanted to discuss that would
be on your podcast. Well, it's a great question. Um,
it's harder for me to say. You know, one of
the things I do on the moment is I kind
of guess at it what I think, because I think
it's it's difficult. You know, there are there are various
(23:29):
inflection points in your life as you look back and
where things could go one or another. I mean clearly
you know, deciding to write Rounders was one. I mean
there's no bigger one than the moment i'm I met
my wife, you know, or when our our son was born. Um.
I do try to look at like so I guess
moments in people's careers. So if we're just talking about
(23:51):
sort of a professional you know, a moment in in
in my career. One I'll tell you one, um, is
when I was writing Solitary Man who is a movie
that Dave and I directed and that I wrote. UM.
It took me like four years to write it, and
UM it was the only movie that I wrote by myself,
(24:11):
and it was very important and personal idea that I had.
And I was really stuck. I was stuck. I was
like sixty pages in and all of the old fears
resurfaced and I was really blocked. We were working on
Ocean's thirteen at the time, and UM, so everything was
going really well, but I had this story. I couldn't
(24:34):
find a way to to to break through. And I
realized I had stopped doing Morning Pages around then, which
is journaling every day and UM, and then in through
journaling and and through UH therapy too, like, I realized
that I still part of me felt like I didn't
(24:57):
I didn't deserve to be doing this. I wasn't somebody
who um was an art you know, truly an artist
enough to try to write something like this. And had
I had I allowed it to wither, UM, something really
crucial would have been damaged. And so what I finally did,
(25:18):
the thing that finally broke through it is I started
doing stand up comedy. I was forty years old. I
had always wanted to do stand up and as through
the journaling and realizing that I was blocked, I realized
that I had never chased the thing that was the
scariest to me, which was doing stand up and uh
and I just said screw it, and I started going
(25:38):
to open mics and uh, you know, I was somebody
who had already made five movies or something. I had
an entire show business career. And it was humiliating in
the beginning, because you know, your bomb in the beginning,
and uh. And I went out there and I just
I mean, you know, I was sweating through my shirt
like Albert Brooks and broadcast news and uh. And then
slowly it's stopped being you know, the fear turned to
(26:01):
this really fun fear, this fun, exciting, like bungee cord
kind of thing. Well, he knows what I'm talking about,
this fun bungee cord thing. And uh. And through doing it,
I did it for a year and a half, like
four nights a week. I went out in the clubs
and I ended up passing at a club and getting
ten good minutes together. And through doing that, somehow, through
(26:23):
breaking through that fear, um through like literally connecting with
an audience and making them laugh, and then you know,
bombing the next night, and then the next night making
people laugh. Uh. I got to a place where I
created a new kind of safety net for myself and
I was somehow able to figure out how to finish
writing that that script, you know, we wrote. I wrote
(26:46):
that script Dave and I. Within within a very short time,
we were able to cast Michael Douglas in it. We
have found producers who were able to get the money
together to make it, and that movie ended up on
Roger Ebert's here Best List on the New York Times
Year and Best List. It's a small little art movie,
but I'll tell you it, it really was for for
(27:08):
me and for us like an artistic breakthrough. And and
and I can't tell you how easy it would have
been for it to for me not to write it.
All I was doing was not writing it. And I
took like this drastic action in a way, and you know,
kind of changed everything. Do you think that the you
would have been writing everything you've written up to that
point had been with your partner. Do you think that
(27:28):
you felt like by yourself that there was something different
and that was what stand up partially was was you
there was nobody out there to catch you. Sure, Yeah,
I think that's really smart. Um. Yeah, Dave's an incredible partner,
a great writer, an incredible steady presence. Um. And yeah,
(27:48):
I knew that the two of us were writing these
things together. But but sure it was yes writing it
alone and saying like, I can really do this thing
by myself. I can really be a creative force. I
knew we would direct the movie together, which is what
I wanted. We're really partners for life and this creative endeavor. Um.
But sure, and and I'm sure that the idea of
just being there and like these people staring at me
(28:10):
and having to having to deal with the rejection in
that way, it was really the gift of it, wasn't
you know? Making him laugh was super fun. But the
gift of it was learning that I could bomb and
get up the next morning and be fine. That is
a it's a pretty profound lesson. Uh. Speaking of stand
up comics, you have a UM, I don't know if
I would call it, uh an obsession, but you you
(28:33):
you're very interested in Mark Marin, and you recently interviewed
him on your podcast, and you you did a great job.
I'm curious what it is about him that you are
you are drawn so strongly to and even to turn
it more on you, what it is that's in you
that responds to him so strongly Because we kind of
know what he's about, what is it in you that's
(28:55):
reacting to him? I don't. I'm really obsessed with the
UTF more than I am with Mark. I think that
WTF is an incredible creation. Um and especially because I
think Mark is so, it can be challenging to people.
You know, we talked about on the episode of the
(29:17):
Moment the fact that for a long time in his
career he didn't care about he would get up on
a comedy stage and not care about making them laugh.
In fact, he wanted to push them away. And um,
but somehow on WTF he was And I wrote about
this on grant Land, you know, I wrote this thing
about when he had Jim Brewer on the show, and that,
to me is the best articulation of my thoughts. I mean,
I spent a lot of time writing that article on
(29:39):
grant Land because I was trying to figure it out
for myself. I was trying to understand what is it
about w t F and I think I knew I
was gonna try to this podcast, and I was trying
to see, you know. And I think it's marked bravery really,
the fact that he's he's willing to to not look good,
He's willing to accept and in fact, to display his
(30:02):
own ugliness in order to connect with the person sitting
across from him. And and I think he got there
in a really difficult way. Um, I don't think it
was an easy ride for him. But I'm not I
gotta say, I'm um, I'm no more. I lead always
with my curiosity. That's been like the cornerstone of everything
(30:26):
good I've ever done creatively, you know, whether it was
when I was young and I had this incredible good
fortune to discover the singer songwriter Tracy Chapman and make
her first album, you know, or whether it was walking
into that poker club and wanted to know what made
those people think. So the way that Mark is able
to engage with people and really dive down deep into
(30:50):
sort of what it means to be two different individuals
trying to form some relationship and grab it with that
is just really compelling. But I mean, I'm as interested
in the you know, public radio show Snap Judgment, as
I am in w T f UM and uh, there
(31:10):
were you know, I listened to a lot of different podcasts,
and but yes, I I'm fascinated by Mark but but honestly,
no more than I'm fascinated by Mario Batali, who was
my second guest, or Chuck Closterman, who's uh I interviewed
and who's at the episode is up today. My rule
for my podcast is I'm only interviewing people about whom
(31:31):
I'm truly curious. I won't just book people for the
for the sake of it ever. Yep, And and I'm
looking forward to here in the interview with Chuck, I
think that'll be that'll be a great one. And I
think you're you're doing um. The thing I like about
your podcast is you are digging with people, uh, really
trying to to sort of get to the next level
(31:53):
with them, and I think you've you've been doing a
great job. I really enjoy the show. Oh thank you, well,
that thanks That's I mean the idea of the moment
of really trying to get in to what makes them
who they are. I mean, in a similar way to
what you guys are after you know, I'm after when
I talk to these people, you know, people who do
great things, they process differently. They are able to take
(32:16):
the information in that maybe would make the rest of
us feel defeated, and there's somehow able to put it
through a filter that makes them empowered. And I'm I'm
interested in figuring that out with people. Whether it's in
great moments where a lot of us would go like,
you know, Wiley Coyote, Oh no, there's no ground under me,
uh and then fall, or whether it's in a bad
(32:36):
you know, a bad moment where we would say, well,
I better just throw in the towel. Somehow, people who
accomplish great things, UM, are able to you know, they're
able to process differently. Yep. So one other question I
wanted to and maybe we can we can wrap up
with this, is I want to talk with you. We've
(32:59):
exchanged some some things on Twitter and different things. I
think we have a very very similar musical taste. I
think we probably grew up at the same time listening
to the same bands. UM, I'm really curious what you are,
what sort of newer music that's getting made today? Are
you really interested in? UM? Well, great, I love talking
about this this could be its own podcast. Well you
(33:19):
know that, I'm I mean, I just think Jason Ismael
made the album of the last whatever it is five years. Um,
I think that it's insane. I think the Southeastern is
every single song it's just a knock. There's not a
you know, and not just incredible melodies and just be
you know, stunningly beautiful lyrics. Uh. So I mean to me,
(33:42):
his album just stands above pretty much everything else. I
love The Hold Steady, probably my favorite current rock band. Um.
I think the combination of Tad Cubler and uh Craig
Fan is really amazing. I really dig the Sun Kill
Moon album. I think it's really strong record and if
you guys have heard it, I've heard it come songs
(34:02):
off of it. I like that. Um, all right now
you're making me look right now what I've been listening
to today. But uh, you know, as I said on Twitter,
I'm sure you saw the fact that r M doesn't
exist anymore as a constant horrible disappointment to me. Um,
they're you know, my favorite band of all time. Uh
(34:23):
probably Dylan Louid, r E. M. Springsteen are the things
that I just go back to over and over again.
Those are pretty solid, solid choices. Uh, somebody I've really
been into a lot the last few years, and we
just interviewed him last week. I'm not sure when the
episode will come out, and I'm not sure if you're
familiar with his work. Is Frank Turner. He's no, I
don't know his I don't know. He's an English folk
(34:45):
rock singer who I'm absolutely uh in love with. I
think it's I think he's making some of the best
music around today. So it's based on our shared musical taste.
I think that might be one you like. I'll check
that out for sure. I made a playlist the other
day of artists that I want to get to know
better because I heard something and but I don't know
the stuff well enough. So I had Kurt Kurt Vile
(35:08):
is on there. And Uh, there's that guy Robert. I
don't know his last name right now. I'm gonna just
look really quickly and tell you guys who's writes beautiful songs.
And someone said to me, oh, you love Jason Isbell.
You you got to hear this guy, and uh, and
I got the album and I thought, yeah, that guy's
(35:28):
to rip it to. I also love this songwriter. Do
you ever hear this? If you like is Bell, do
you know the songwriter named Slade Cleaves from Austin, Texas.
I have heard, I know the name, but I don't
know that I've heard the music. Yeah, he's great. He
has an album called Wishbone that's really special, worth your time.
He's he's a great singer songwriter too. Um So, Yeah,
(35:49):
those are some of the things that I'm that I'm
digging now. Yeah, music is a definite way to feed
the good wolf. For me. It's one of the big
ones that keeps me moving. Me too, man, me too.
And I gotta say I see it in the house.
My daughter loves Taylor Swift, and I completely understand it.
I think because Taylor is so popular, it's easy to
(36:09):
write her off. But talk about someone who encourages her
audience to feed the good wolf and who's willing to
be honest and true in her work. I really think
she is. And I think it's a really empowering thing
for particularly young you know, young women and girls. And
I gotta say her music plays in my house so
much that I probably know her music better than uh,
(36:32):
you know, almost anybody else's music. Somehow that's great. I mean,
my I've got I've got teenage boys, and and I'm
always interested in in music that is, to some degree,
you know, decent role model for them. I know that
that might be asking a lot in certain cases, but
that's some of the music today. I guess at any
(36:53):
point is so uh negative that that I hope that
you know, I always how today? How old are they?
I have a son of the steps and they're both
fift freshman in high school. Have they heard have you
heard Kasey Musgraves, that woman who sings She's got that song,
follow Your Love? That song? Yeah, that's a great one,
I think. And my daughter turned me onto that one,
(37:13):
and it's great. Oh. The guy whose name I was
trying to think of before is Robert Ellis. I don't
even think I've ever heard of him. Yeah. So this
friend of mine who really knows music, this guy, Scott Rosenberger,
actually wrote the movie Beautiful Girls and a whole bunch
of other movies. He's a music freak. And he was like,
if you love his bell, check out Robert Ellis. I'm
only listened to the album a few times, but he's right,
it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful record. Excellent. Well, I
(37:35):
will will certainly check that out. Well. I could probably
have this conversation all night, but we are going to
be disciplined and stick to our roughly half hour podcast.
It's fun talking to Yeah, thanks Brian, I really enjoyed
a good luck with the with the show and whatever
movie you've got coming out next. Thank you very much.
Nice talk all right, thanks bite. You can find out
(38:13):
more about this podcast and Brian Koppelman at one you
feed dot net slash Brian Koppelman
When you're somebody who has it in you, this burning
secret desire to do some kind of creative work. If
you don't, you turn toxic. Welcome to the one you feed.
(00:21):
Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
you are what you think ring true. And yet for
many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
see what we don't have instead of what we do.
(00:43):
We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
(01:14):
episode is Brian Koppelman. He's a Hollywood writer, director, and
occasional producer. Some of his movies are Rounders, Solitary Man,
Knock Around Guys, Oceans Thirteen, and The Illusionist. He creates
the six second screenwriting lessons on Vine, which are a
great inspiration for artists of any kind. He's also the
host of an excellent new grant Land podcast called The
(01:37):
Moment with Brian Koppelman. Welcome to the show, Brian. It's
my pleasure to be here, guys, thanks for having me.
I thought we'd start off with maybe you're telling us
a little bit about how you became a screenwriter, because
I think you came to it a little bit later
than than some people to do, and I'm curious to
(01:57):
the journey that got you there. H happy to talk
about it. I'm so glad you didn't hit me with
the what the expression the one you feed means, because
I've been really stressing about having to answer it. I'll
come back to it, doory. But I became a screenwriter,
and I uh, right around when I turned thirty. Um,
I got to a point in my life where, um,
(02:21):
it became it became clear to me that what I
was doing wasn't I wasn't really living my dream and
I wasn't really living to what I felt was, you know,
like the fullest my capacity. And I had just had
um when I was twenty nine. My son was born,
(02:41):
our son, or first child, and I realized I wanted
to be the kind of dad who would come home
at night and and tell his kids to chase their
dream and to you know that that it's true that
you can if you work hard enough, UH and are
clear enough, you could be anything you want to be.
And I realized I wasn't living that, and so I
would be able to really say it, and I didn't
(03:02):
want to turn bitter. And I knew that I had
to be creating. I didn't know if it meant I
had to be a screenwriter or a novelist or stand
up comedian, but I knew I had I had to
start really creating from my life and UH and made
(03:22):
the decision to do it. And shortly thereafter UM, I
went and spoke to my lifelong best friend David Levine
and and he was working as a bartender and was writing,
and we made a commitment that we're going to figure
out how to write something together. And soon within a
(03:43):
few months of that, I walked into a poker club
late at night and I left that clag I cleaned
out and I left that club. In the middle of
the night. I called Dave and I said, I think
I know the setting for this for this first movie
that we're going to write and that was that was
ers right, it was, and we we made this commitment
to one another. We researched it. We spent a lot
(04:05):
of time in the clubs. We really read every book
on poker that existed, and watched every videotape of every
world series of poker. This is before there was a
whole card camp. And then once we were ready to write,
we committed to meeting every morning before I would go
to work and after he tends to bar. And we
worked for two hours a day, five days a week,
(04:25):
and never missed a day until we finished the screenplay.
And they did you have it? You guys were not
in the Hollywood infrastructure. How challenging was it for you
to sell the script? You know? Ours is a weird
story because Um David had met a young manager. When
Dave got out of college, he went out to Hollywood.
(04:46):
He worked for a couple of years as an assistant
and Um had met some people, met a young manager
who had never sold anything. Maybe it's sold one TV movie.
And he sent our script to that guy whose name
is Seth Jared, and Seth said, I know this is
a movie. I can sell this, And Um it got
(05:06):
rejected by every single agency in Hollywood. SETH got it
to big people at every agency. They all rejected it.
But then very shortly thereafter, um, he got it in
the hands of a producer, a woman named Tracy Falco,
who worked for this director Ted Demi, who's who was
a great guy who died ten years ago. And uh,
(05:28):
and they got it into Harvey Weinstein's hands. And so
although for us it felt like nothing but rejection because
we just had a ton of rejection quickly, the truth
is we finished the script on like January one or second, um,
and then uh, we were in production. It was purchased
(05:48):
by Mirramax on March three, and we were in production
December fift of the same year. So ours was not
a typical story nor a typical ride. Yeah, that's that's
pretty quick. Yeah was it was really you know, it
was amazing in a way. Dave and I were you know,
I was thirty and he was, I guess twenty eight
and turns twenty nine. When when we were doing it,
we weren't like people who were just out of college
(06:10):
and had this you know idea they were going to write.
I mean it, we really approached it with an incredible
amount of focus and determination, and I think we were
at it for really the right reasons, which was we
found a story we were dying to tell. We knew
this was our chance to really be storytellers, and we
really gave it everything that we had. And you've got
(06:32):
the the six second screenwriting lessons that you do and
and a lot of those seemed to revolve around sort
of exactly what you just said, which is about just
doing the work, about committing yourself, being disciplined, and doing
it no matter what. That seems to be one theme
that that crops up pretty regularly. Well, it's so it's
(06:52):
one of the only things that you have control over, right,
I mean, if if you want to be in the arts,
so much of it um the way your work is received,
who chooses to read it, the mood that they're in
when when they read it. You can't control any of that.
You can try to improve your odds various ways, but
(07:14):
the but one thing you can control is showing up
every day and working with focus and passion and discipline.
And you can choose your subject matter and you can
choose the art form. So it's like if you make
those choices and you put everything you have into you know,
doing those you're just giving yourself the best chance to
(07:38):
a few different things happen. One you stop being so
results oriented. You become really focused on doing the work.
If you're there every day. That doesn't mean late at night,
you know, in the afternoon walking around you don't daydream.
We all daydream, We all sort of. I think it's
a healthy thing to visualize and think about, you know what,
what can what can happen positively, But you take so
(08:01):
much of the fear and insecurity away by by doing
it and every day and and so I just found
that because I was I mean one thing I didn't say.
But why it took me song, why I was thirty
and reached this crisis point is I was a blocked writer.
I was a blocked creative. I was what Julia Cameron,
who wrote The Artist Way, calls a shadow artist. I
worked in the music business. I was an A and
(08:23):
R guy. I was a producer in the studio with artists,
and I always felt though I should be doing it,
but I was terrified to do it. I was terrified
of not being able to, you know, terrified of not
being able to uh, you know, capture what was in
my head and somehow get it out onto the page.
(08:44):
And so it's never been an easy thing for me.
Still it's not easy to sit down and do the
work all the time. But I find if you do
it on Monday, it's easier, you know, when you get
there on Tuesday. And so if I can, you know,
if I can help people understand and make that initial
will breakthrough of hey, I'm gonna do it, uh every day,
(09:04):
I think I think it's a very useful thing to do. Yeah,
that that's a theme that we we seem to keep
hearing the same sorts of themes on the show as
we as we talk about this idea of feeding your
good wolf, and that is one of them that comes
up a lot, which is just doing the work, whether
you think about it, whether you feel like it, whether
(09:24):
that work being your creative work, whether that work be
the things that you know you need to do to
take care of yourself, doing that work. And then the
other one that you mentioned there that I think is
so important is the idea of momentum. If you get moving,
it's it's so much easier to keep moving and getting
started from a dead stop is really challenging. It's true.
(09:45):
I mean that's something that I took from uh. I mean,
if you've if you've watched my videos or um you
know the six second screen running things are read in
my blog, you'll you'll know that I UM, I'm really
not somebody who believes in in the idea of gurus
or who believes that are some authority that can you
need to give you permission. But I will say from
me UM, when I was around that age, I read
(10:07):
um Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins, and I found,
uh that a lot of stuff Tony talked about about,
you know, making a decision and then taking action, and
then taking action every day. It was exactly what I
needed to hear. And it's all about creating that kind
of positive momentum for yourself. You know, it doesn't mean
(10:28):
that you're going to succeed, right, it doesn't mean that
you're going to have the particular gift at the thing.
But when you get in the habit of being able
to focus and commit um, then when you find that
thing that marries your passion to your ability, you'll be
able to manifest it in a way that otherwise you
might not be able to yeah, exactly, and that I
(10:48):
like what you said there because that that discipline does
translate from one thing to the other as you as
you learn to be more disciplined in one area of
your life, you can apply it to others. Not to uh,
(11:19):
not to induce too much stress. But I gotta go
back to the wolf parable, because that's that's what the
show is, and I've I've abdicated my duties as host
at this point. What my what my partner has given
me the look for so um. The podcast is called
The One You Feed, and it is based on the
parable of the two Wolves, where one of them is uh,
(11:40):
where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and
he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us.
One is a good wolf and it represents things like
kindness and love and bravery, and the other is a
bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and sorrow.
And the grandson stops and he thinks that he says, well, grandfather,
(12:00):
which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed?
So I am interested in what that means to you
in your life and in your work that you do well.
I do think it's it's uh, it's actually a very
clear parable. I mean that's why when I was kind
of joking when I said I was stressing about answering it.
But what I mean is that I think that the
(12:22):
answers I've heard on on your show are fairly consistent
in a way. And um, because you're you've chosen to
mostly interview people who have found a way to thrive
at something and have found a way to um, you know,
to feed, to feed the good wolf to the best
of their ability. You know, in Hollywood where I sometimes work, um,
(12:45):
the town is trying to feed the other wolf all
the time. So UM, I mean, I'll tell you the
practical things I do, right, I think what everyone says
on your show is true about focusing you know, on
the work, focusing outer uh you know, keeping me like
as a creator, not being self indulgent. But I do
like certain great practical things. I meditate twice a day,
(13:07):
I practice transidental meditation. UM, I take long walks, I
journal every day. I spent a lot of time with
my family. Um. I you know, I do all sorts
of stuff to keep me, like listening to the good
voice and to nurture and feed it to the best
of my ability. Um. And so that's you know what
(13:30):
what that means to me. I mean, I think becoming
a parent, if you are a person who has a
heart at all, I mean my my my wife and
my two kids are truly the focus of my existence.
And you know that immediately makes you sort of like
outer directed and makes you feed the good wolf because
you have these examples in front of you, these uh,
(13:53):
these you know, blank slates who are going to learn
everything from what and you do and how you do it.
And so you know, to me, it's simple that I
would just say to me, it's a it's been a
simple thing, um, you know, to try to to try
my best to be to be good. You know, yeah,
it is simple. But as someone once said, it's there's
(14:13):
a big difference between knowing something and doing something. I
do think it's true. By the way, I think the
parable is true, and you can see examples of it everywhere. Um.
And by the way, I think all of us do
feed the other wall from time to time, right, I
mean we all. I think it'd be a lie to
say that you never do anything out of a less
(14:35):
than noble intention. Um, you know, and when you know
you do what I do for a living. Um, and
from you know, uh you I think it's important to
stay just aware of why you do it, what you're
trying to connect to uh. And I think if you
do that, it enables you to to tune down those
(14:57):
other instincts or ideas. I agree, and that's a large
part of the reason for doing the show was these ideas.
There's nothing ground by breaking a revolutionary in them. It's
remembering to do it consistently and remembering to go back
to those things that I struggle with. It's easy to
get carried away with with things that don't serve us
(15:19):
very well, and I need the reminder. It's it's amazing
to me that I do as many times as I've
learned it, but that seems to be my default pattern. Yeah, well,
we all what do you do? Do you what kind
of practice do you like? Do you meditate? Do you walk?
Do you run? How do you how do you handle it? Yeah? Um,
actually I am. I am in the midst of the
(15:40):
best best I've ever been at meditating. I've been an
on and off meditator for for years, and I seem
to be in the middle of a really good everyday streak,
which I've never been able to do consistently. So that's
a that's a big one. I think that UM exercises
another big one for me. It makes it makes a
dramatic difference in my in my mental state. I used
(16:04):
to do it, I think because I cared about how
I looked, and now it's far more about I care
about how I feel, and exercises one are the best
ways to do that. I mean. The intention behind that
is a great sort of illustration of the idea. Right,
It's that you're doing the same thing, but the reason
for doing it completely changes in a way, which wolf
you're feeding. Now there's anything wrong about trying to look good,
(16:24):
But I mean, that's I think a really great answer.
Oh the other things that I do, you know, I
I try to surround myself with like um art broadly
defined art that moves me. So I try to listen
to and I listen to great music. I listen to
podcast that really uh in some way I have the
capacity to move or engage me. I'm always reading. This year,
(16:47):
I made a big promise to myself to read more fiction.
I grew up fiction was like a central part of
my life. And then as you get a little bit
older and you right for living, sometimes it's easier to
read nonfiction. It engages you in a different way. And
I really committed my one year's resolution. I don't believe
in them, but the one that I sort of promise
I made was to try to read at least one
(17:09):
really good book of fiction every month, So to read
twelve books this year, um not nonfiction. And I can
tell you already that's having a huge ramifications for me
in a positive way. Yeah, that's a great idea. I've
been reflecting on that that I used to read fiction
so much and got a lot out of it, and
over the last several years that's everything I read is
(17:30):
is nonfiction of some sort for various different reasons. And
I've realized that I missed that just reading a book
of fiction, that that is good and that illuminates, um
the human condition in a little bit different way than
than I would normally think about it or see it.
Have either of you guys ever read this book called
(17:50):
City of Thieves by David Benioff. I haven't. He's uh.
He and his partner Dan Wisse are the guys who
created right Um Game of Throne, but Benny Off's novel
Um is incredible books set in Russia during the war,
and um, it's really I gotta say it's it's uh.
(18:11):
It speaks to your themes in an incredibly beautiful way,
and uh uh. I've never recommended the book to anyone
who didn't make it a point to thank me and
then send it to ten people. So that's my recommendation
of a book for you guys and for the people
listening City at Thieves. David benning Off excellent, thank me,
We'll we'll put it on the list. I wanted to
circle back to something that you talked about there when
(18:32):
when we were describing when we were discussing the Wolf
Parable and you talked about that it's very easy when
you have a family to sort of give you that
outer direction and do all that. But I've also read
a blog post that you have and I think this
is a paradox. It's difficult to balance, which is why
I want to talk more about it. You talk about
how finding time to do your art is really important,
(18:56):
and how sometimes that's initially when you jump onto a
creative project seen as being selfish, and you had a
slightly different view of it than it being selfish, and
I wonder if you could walk us through that. Sure. Well,
I'm so lucky. My wife is a novelist and um
a great novelist named Amy Compleman, and her books you
(19:16):
should get to on Amazon. They're dark, but really powerful
and worth your time. But when I Amy was constantly
encouraging me to do this, and I mean we've been married,
uh like twenty two years, and so we were newly pretty,
you know, not so newly married a couple of years
when I said, hey, I'm really thinking I'm gonna do this,
(19:38):
and she kind of said finally, you know, and she
cleared out this storage space underneath our apartment, really just
a storage space like a slop sync in it, and
uh said, this is where your This is your office
to write this in before you go to work. And
Dave came over every day and we worked and this
I can't even I mean as a picture somewhere. It
is really just the last place you would think would
be your salvation, but it really he became this incredible
(20:02):
oasis for us to do this work. And so what
I what I say in that blog post which is
up at Brian Hopperman dot com. Is that is that
when you're somebody who has it in you, this burning
secret desire to do some kind of creative work, if
you don't, you turn toxic. And that in fact, that
(20:26):
toxicity UM is not just damaging to you, but it's
damaging to everybody around you. And so that even if
your kids, your family don't, they don't know what the
reason is, you start to turn. And so by doing
the by doing the creative work, the good thing, whether
(20:47):
that's um, you know, running a marathon, whatever your thing is, UM,
if it it gets rid of it's the one thing
that kind of cleanses that toxicity. So then the time
that you have to be around everybody, you're not secretly
wishing that you were doing your creative thing. But you know,
(21:07):
I didn't face that resistance from the people closest to me.
I only was rewarded for it. But that's because I,
you know, made this incredibly lucky decision when you're when
you get married young, I was, I think it's so
much luck to just happen to choose the right person UM,
and I made an incredibly good choice. And so I've
(21:28):
only had ever support for that but I have seen
how people around creative people react and the way it's
not just skepticism. What it is is it's triggering something
in them very often too, which is you know when
you finally start to do it, you see that that
people will it will scare them because they're afraid and
(21:50):
you're kind of calling them out, even if you don't
mean to call them out. That's why it can be
challenging to do, but it's it's worth it, you know.
Being an example, I can't tell you how many people,
once Dave I wrote our first screenplay and sold it,
how many people I know suddenly decided they could go
do it and tried to do it. Um. So I
guess that's why that's what I'm talking about in that
(22:11):
in that blog post. Does that make sense? So it
makes it makes total sense that that toxicity and resentment.
Really it is very easy to creep into into life
if you're not, at least for me, if I'm not
doing some of the things that that are important to me.
(22:45):
Speaking of creative outlets, you recently launched a new podcast
called The Moment with Brian Koppelman, which is is excellent.
You've had great guests so far and I wanted to
turn it on you. I wanted to ask you. The
podcast is about seminal moments in people's lives where sort
of everything hung in the balance and the direction they
(23:06):
chose to go was really really critical. And so I'd
like to ask you what the moment was or a
moment for you that you wanted to discuss that would
be on your podcast. Well, it's a great question. Um,
it's harder for me to say. You know, one of
the things I do on the moment is I kind
of guess at it what I think, because I think
it's it's difficult. You know, there are there are various
(23:29):
inflection points in your life as you look back and
where things could go one or another. I mean clearly
you know, deciding to write Rounders was one. I mean
there's no bigger one than the moment i'm I met
my wife, you know, or when our our son was born. Um.
I do try to look at like so I guess
moments in people's careers. So if we're just talking about
(23:51):
sort of a professional you know, a moment in in
in my career. One I'll tell you one, um, is
when I was writing Solitary Man who is a movie
that Dave and I directed and that I wrote. UM.
It took me like four years to write it, and
UM it was the only movie that I wrote by myself,
(24:11):
and it was very important and personal idea that I had.
And I was really stuck. I was stuck. I was
like sixty pages in and all of the old fears
resurfaced and I was really blocked. We were working on
Ocean's thirteen at the time, and UM, so everything was
going really well, but I had this story. I couldn't
(24:34):
find a way to to to break through. And I
realized I had stopped doing Morning Pages around then, which
is journaling every day and UM, and then in through
journaling and and through UH therapy too, like, I realized
that I still part of me felt like I didn't
(24:57):
I didn't deserve to be doing this. I wasn't somebody
who um was an art you know, truly an artist
enough to try to write something like this. And had
I had I allowed it to wither, UM, something really
crucial would have been damaged. And so what I finally did,
(25:18):
the thing that finally broke through it is I started
doing stand up comedy. I was forty years old. I
had always wanted to do stand up and as through
the journaling and realizing that I was blocked, I realized
that I had never chased the thing that was the
scariest to me, which was doing stand up and uh
and I just said screw it, and I started going
(25:38):
to open mics and uh, you know, I was somebody
who had already made five movies or something. I had
an entire show business career. And it was humiliating in
the beginning, because you know, your bomb in the beginning,
and uh. And I went out there and I just
I mean, you know, I was sweating through my shirt
like Albert Brooks and broadcast news and uh. And then
slowly it's stopped being you know, the fear turned to
(26:01):
this really fun fear, this fun, exciting, like bungee cord
kind of thing. Well, he knows what I'm talking about,
this fun bungee cord thing. And uh. And through doing it,
I did it for a year and a half, like
four nights a week. I went out in the clubs
and I ended up passing at a club and getting
ten good minutes together. And through doing that, somehow, through
(26:23):
breaking through that fear, um through like literally connecting with
an audience and making them laugh, and then you know,
bombing the next night, and then the next night making
people laugh. Uh. I got to a place where I
created a new kind of safety net for myself and
I was somehow able to figure out how to finish
writing that that script, you know, we wrote. I wrote
(26:46):
that script Dave and I. Within within a very short time,
we were able to cast Michael Douglas in it. We
have found producers who were able to get the money
together to make it, and that movie ended up on
Roger Ebert's here Best List on the New York Times
Year and Best List. It's a small little art movie,
but I'll tell you it, it really was for for
(27:08):
me and for us like an artistic breakthrough. And and
and I can't tell you how easy it would have
been for it to for me not to write it.
All I was doing was not writing it. And I
took like this drastic action in a way, and you know,
kind of changed everything. Do you think that the you
would have been writing everything you've written up to that
point had been with your partner. Do you think that
(27:28):
you felt like by yourself that there was something different
and that was what stand up partially was was you
there was nobody out there to catch you. Sure, Yeah,
I think that's really smart. Um. Yeah, Dave's an incredible partner,
a great writer, an incredible steady presence. Um. And yeah,
(27:48):
I knew that the two of us were writing these
things together. But but sure it was yes writing it
alone and saying like, I can really do this thing
by myself. I can really be a creative force. I
knew we would direct the movie together, which is what
I wanted. We're really partners for life and this creative endeavor. Um.
But sure, and and I'm sure that the idea of
just being there and like these people staring at me
(28:10):
and having to having to deal with the rejection in
that way, it was really the gift of it, wasn't
you know? Making him laugh was super fun. But the
gift of it was learning that I could bomb and
get up the next morning and be fine. That is
a it's a pretty profound lesson. Uh. Speaking of stand
up comics, you have a UM, I don't know if
I would call it, uh an obsession, but you you
(28:33):
you're very interested in Mark Marin, and you recently interviewed
him on your podcast, and you you did a great job.
I'm curious what it is about him that you are
you are drawn so strongly to and even to turn
it more on you, what it is that's in you
that responds to him so strongly Because we kind of
know what he's about, what is it in you that's
(28:55):
reacting to him? I don't. I'm really obsessed with the
UTF more than I am with Mark. I think that
WTF is an incredible creation. Um and especially because I
think Mark is so, it can be challenging to people.
You know, we talked about on the episode of the
(29:17):
Moment the fact that for a long time in his
career he didn't care about he would get up on
a comedy stage and not care about making them laugh.
In fact, he wanted to push them away. And um,
but somehow on WTF he was And I wrote about
this on grant Land, you know, I wrote this thing
about when he had Jim Brewer on the show, and that,
to me is the best articulation of my thoughts. I mean,
I spent a lot of time writing that article on
(29:39):
grant Land because I was trying to figure it out
for myself. I was trying to understand what is it
about w t F and I think I knew I
was gonna try to this podcast, and I was trying
to see, you know. And I think it's marked bravery really,
the fact that he's he's willing to to not look good,
He's willing to accept and in fact, to display his
(30:02):
own ugliness in order to connect with the person sitting
across from him. And and I think he got there
in a really difficult way. Um, I don't think it
was an easy ride for him. But I'm not I
gotta say, I'm um, I'm no more. I lead always
with my curiosity. That's been like the cornerstone of everything
(30:26):
good I've ever done creatively, you know, whether it was
when I was young and I had this incredible good
fortune to discover the singer songwriter Tracy Chapman and make
her first album, you know, or whether it was walking
into that poker club and wanted to know what made
those people think. So the way that Mark is able
to engage with people and really dive down deep into
(30:50):
sort of what it means to be two different individuals
trying to form some relationship and grab it with that
is just really compelling. But I mean, I'm as interested
in the you know, public radio show Snap Judgment, as
I am in w T f UM and uh, there
(31:10):
were you know, I listened to a lot of different podcasts,
and but yes, I I'm fascinated by Mark but but honestly,
no more than I'm fascinated by Mario Batali, who was
my second guest, or Chuck Closterman, who's uh I interviewed
and who's at the episode is up today. My rule
for my podcast is I'm only interviewing people about whom
(31:31):
I'm truly curious. I won't just book people for the
for the sake of it ever. Yep, And and I'm
looking forward to here in the interview with Chuck, I
think that'll be that'll be a great one. And I
think you're you're doing um. The thing I like about
your podcast is you are digging with people, uh, really
trying to to sort of get to the next level
(31:53):
with them, and I think you've you've been doing a
great job. I really enjoy the show. Oh thank you, well,
that thanks That's I mean the idea of the moment
of really trying to get in to what makes them
who they are. I mean, in a similar way to
what you guys are after you know, I'm after when
I talk to these people, you know, people who do
great things, they process differently. They are able to take
(32:16):
the information in that maybe would make the rest of
us feel defeated, and there's somehow able to put it
through a filter that makes them empowered. And I'm I'm
interested in figuring that out with people. Whether it's in
great moments where a lot of us would go like,
you know, Wiley Coyote, Oh no, there's no ground under me,
uh and then fall, or whether it's in a bad
(32:36):
you know, a bad moment where we would say, well,
I better just throw in the towel. Somehow, people who
accomplish great things, UM, are able to you know, they're
able to process differently. Yep. So one other question I
wanted to and maybe we can we can wrap up
with this, is I want to talk with you. We've
(32:59):
exchanged some some things on Twitter and different things. I
think we have a very very similar musical taste. I
think we probably grew up at the same time listening
to the same bands. UM, I'm really curious what you are,
what sort of newer music that's getting made today? Are
you really interested in? UM? Well, great, I love talking
about this this could be its own podcast. Well you
(33:19):
know that, I'm I mean, I just think Jason Ismael
made the album of the last whatever it is five years. Um,
I think that it's insane. I think the Southeastern is
every single song it's just a knock. There's not a
you know, and not just incredible melodies and just be
you know, stunningly beautiful lyrics. Uh. So I mean to me,
(33:42):
his album just stands above pretty much everything else. I
love The Hold Steady, probably my favorite current rock band. Um.
I think the combination of Tad Cubler and uh Craig
Fan is really amazing. I really dig the Sun Kill
Moon album. I think it's really strong record and if
you guys have heard it, I've heard it come songs
(34:02):
off of it. I like that. Um, all right now
you're making me look right now what I've been listening
to today. But uh, you know, as I said on Twitter,
I'm sure you saw the fact that r M doesn't
exist anymore as a constant horrible disappointment to me. Um,
they're you know, my favorite band of all time. Uh
(34:23):
probably Dylan Louid, r E. M. Springsteen are the things
that I just go back to over and over again.
Those are pretty solid, solid choices. Uh, somebody I've really
been into a lot the last few years, and we
just interviewed him last week. I'm not sure when the
episode will come out, and I'm not sure if you're
familiar with his work. Is Frank Turner. He's no, I
don't know his I don't know. He's an English folk
(34:45):
rock singer who I'm absolutely uh in love with. I
think it's I think he's making some of the best
music around today. So it's based on our shared musical taste.
I think that might be one you like. I'll check
that out for sure. I made a playlist the other
day of artists that I want to get to know
better because I heard something and but I don't know
the stuff well enough. So I had Kurt Kurt Vile
(35:08):
is on there. And Uh, there's that guy Robert. I
don't know his last name right now. I'm gonna just
look really quickly and tell you guys who's writes beautiful songs.
And someone said to me, oh, you love Jason Isbell.
You you got to hear this guy, and uh, and
I got the album and I thought, yeah, that guy's
(35:28):
to rip it to. I also love this songwriter. Do
you ever hear this? If you like is Bell, do
you know the songwriter named Slade Cleaves from Austin, Texas.
I have heard, I know the name, but I don't
know that I've heard the music. Yeah, he's great. He
has an album called Wishbone that's really special, worth your time.
He's he's a great singer songwriter too. Um So, Yeah,
(35:49):
those are some of the things that I'm that I'm
digging now. Yeah, music is a definite way to feed
the good wolf. For me. It's one of the big
ones that keeps me moving. Me too, man, me too.
And I gotta say I see it in the house.
My daughter loves Taylor Swift, and I completely understand it.
I think because Taylor is so popular, it's easy to
(36:09):
write her off. But talk about someone who encourages her
audience to feed the good wolf and who's willing to
be honest and true in her work. I really think
she is. And I think it's a really empowering thing
for particularly young you know, young women and girls. And
I gotta say her music plays in my house so
much that I probably know her music better than uh,
(36:32):
you know, almost anybody else's music. Somehow that's great. I mean,
my I've got I've got teenage boys, and and I'm
always interested in in music that is, to some degree,
you know, decent role model for them. I know that
that might be asking a lot in certain cases, but
that's some of the music today. I guess at any
(36:53):
point is so uh negative that that I hope that
you know, I always how today? How old are they?
I have a son of the steps and they're both
fift freshman in high school. Have they heard have you
heard Kasey Musgraves, that woman who sings She's got that song,
follow Your Love? That song? Yeah, that's a great one,
I think. And my daughter turned me onto that one,
(37:13):
and it's great. Oh. The guy whose name I was
trying to think of before is Robert Ellis. I don't
even think I've ever heard of him. Yeah. So this
friend of mine who really knows music, this guy, Scott Rosenberger,
actually wrote the movie Beautiful Girls and a whole bunch
of other movies. He's a music freak. And he was like,
if you love his bell, check out Robert Ellis. I'm
only listened to the album a few times, but he's right,
it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful record. Excellent. Well, I
(37:35):
will will certainly check that out. Well. I could probably
have this conversation all night, but we are going to
be disciplined and stick to our roughly half hour podcast.
It's fun talking to Yeah, thanks Brian, I really enjoyed
a good luck with the with the show and whatever
movie you've got coming out next. Thank you very much.
Nice talk all right, thanks bite. You can find out
(38:13):
more about this podcast and Brian Koppelman at one you
feed dot net slash Brian Koppelman
Host
Eric Zimmer
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