I Love You, Man: Jason Reynolds on Masculinity

Episode Transcript
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Jason Reynolds (00:02):
I don't wanna be whatever version of masculinity
y'all keep telling me I have tobe. Why is the only version of
masculinity? Why are all thebenchmarks violent, aggressive?
I don't wanna do it. I'm notinterested.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:17):
To tell another man you love him, to
center friendships andtenderness pushes against the
scripts boys inherit about howthey're supposed to act and it
leads today's guest to an evenharder admission.

I don't think I actually know what masculinity
is.

Jason Reynolds is a national treasure,
a Newbery Medal winner, aNational Book Award finalist, a
MacArthur Genius Grantrecipient, and a two time
national ambassador for youngpeople's literature. And
somehow, he's only 41. FromGhost and the track series to
Long Way Down and Look BothWays, his books illuminate and

(00:59):
elucidate the feelings of boysand men in all their gentleness,
vulnerability, and warmth. Inthis episode, Jason shares his
thoughts on masculinity, thegood, the bad, and the
beautiful. He explains whyeveryone needs to have a tuning
fork friend, describes howSaturn flipped his life around

(01:21):
at age 30, and pays anincredible tribute to the
tattooed biker badass who washis loving father.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookieand this is the reading culture,
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We

(01:43):
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
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(02:05):
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(02:49):
the page? Visit beanstack.com tolearn more. I wanted to talk
about maybe if you could bringus back to, like, one of your
first close relationships as ayounger person, like, one of
your close friendships and justkinda speak to that.

That's an easy one for me. My first close
relationship was with Aaron. Youknow, Aaron is gosh. I mean,
he's I have siblings, and I'mvery close to my siblings, and
he's closer to me than they are.He's been in my life since I was
four.
We met in kindergarten. I wastalking to him literally before

(03:29):
I got on here Mhmm. About, like,he's taking care of my car. He
got to run my car to the shop.He takes care of my mom when I'm
out of town.
We're in our forties now, we'restill as tight as we were as
children. You know, it's one ofthese things. And so as a four
year old, five year old cominginto a new kindergarten class,
shy and introverted, there wasthis one kid who was the

(03:49):
opposite. And he could tell thatI needed a little help. He could
tell that I needed somebody tostand next to.
Right? That I needed somebody totake a step forward so that I
could be comfortable taking astep back, you know? And our
lives, from that point on, ourlives have always been that way.
Even when we were growing up, hewas more of a tough kid. He had

(04:10):
a lot more aggression for lotsof reasons, but it it made me
always feel safe.
I never had to pretend like Iwas anything other than who I
was around him, even back then.You know, we came from different
family backgrounds, differenteconomic situations, and we
never judged each other foranything. And so I was taught

(04:31):
what friendship was really,really, really young. And I was
taught what boyhood could bewithin, like we gated each other
in so that we could run aroundfreely within this border.
Right?
It's like as long as we createour own border around each
other, as long as we create aforce field, then I get to be
any version of myself safely,and he got to be any version of

(04:52):
himself safely. So then I got toknow what it felt like to be
free Mhmm. As a little boy. Andall the way up through middle
school, high school, college,and even today in our forties.

How do you think, looking back on it, that
you created that force field?Like, what were the elements of
it?

You know, it's weird because I look back, and I
don't even know why it all feltso instinctual. Right? Like, no
one ever told us that this ishow you treat your friends. I
think we both understood that weboth needed each other in
particular ways, and we've beeneach other's tuning fork
throughout our lives. Right?
It's like whenever we feel likemaybe we're a little out of sync

(05:30):
or a little unaligned, the otherone is there to say, like, you
know, that's not you.

It's so interesting to hear you talk
because okay. I'm one of threesisters. And, like, women, we
grew up saying I love you inpublic all the time. Like, not
just to my sisters or to myfriends or my girlfriends, but
also to, like, the football teammoms. The other day, one said to
me, like, see you later.
Love you. And nothing strangeabout that. Right? Like, I think

(05:56):
girls are just taught early thetenderness is okay, and then it
feels natural. And meanwhile,boys, they are getting the
opposite message a lot of thetime.
And I've even heard when I hearmy son say, I love you to a
friend or recently he said thisto his very age old friend, you
know, it still jumps out to me.Like, it's still uncommon. You

(06:19):
know?

Yeah. I say I love you to all my friends.
Everybody. And to be very clear,I I wanna be clear about the way
that we say I love you because Ialso make it a point. There's no
hedging or couching.
Right? Because what happens ismiddle we will find a way to
take whatever sting we feel isin it out of it. Right? Some of
my friends just say love, love,man, but they got the phone.
Love, bro.
Hang up the phone.

Yes.

Right? And it's like, nah. I want it to be clear
and direct. I love you

Yeah.

Aaron. Right? And then let's just sit in it
for a second. Mhmm. Right?
And that's how it is. Right?It's like, love you, man. I I
love you. And he's like, I loveyou, man.
I love you too. Yeah. That's it.All the time. Every time I see
him or talk to him.
That's all my guys though.Right? It's like, yo, love you.
Love you too. Talk to you later.
Yeah. Because I do. This is thething I've yet to sort of figure

(07:06):
out. Right? The greatest doozyever pulled on men has to be
homophobia.
Yeah. It's like I don't wantanyone to assume that when I say
I love this man that I'm sayingI'm attracted to this man. And
the wild part is is that you areattracted to him because

(07:29):
attraction is not about just aphysical thing. All of my
friends, I have been magnetizedto. They're in my life because
there is something attractive

Yeah.

About who they are, about their personalities,
their spirits, theirconstitutions, the way that they
lead their lives, the way thatthey hold me down, the way that
they care for their parents andtheir wives and children. Like,
no. No. No. I am attracted tothese people.

That's right.

Right?

Attraction. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. Right? It's that but we sexualize
everything

Yeah.

Which is simply a sign of immaturity. It's
teenage boyhood.

Sasa Aakil (08:04):
Yeah. I think Zane wanted in Look Both Ways, right?
Like, that's one of the

stories in there is that two boys are just
like he just gives them a peckon the cheek or something, then
everybody

Yeah. And, like, it becomes a whole thing. And
it's like, not only do I find itall to be very foolish and very
silly, I don't think we know, orI think perhaps we do know, the
kind of hindrance that itcreates. Right? It's like
there's a stunting that happens.
There's a ceiling there. Right?We've created a smaller space
for us to be free and loose in.I can't play or do my dance

(08:33):
because you're so scared that ifI tell you how I feel about you,
brother, that somehow I'll crosssome sort of sexual line, which
has less to do with me and moreto do with you. And I think, for
me, it's very important that themen in my life know that I do
love them, that I am gratefulfor them.
Right? That there is somethingabout them that has magnetized

(08:54):
me. Right? Which is why they arestill in my light, which is why
I continue to be a part oftheirs. Right?
And I don't know why that is sodifficult.

Jason's friendships gave him the freedom
to be tender, a rare gift inboyhood. From a young age, we're
often told what strength shouldlook like, what softness should
be hidden, and what it means tobe a man.

Like, we should be able to be like, I'm okay
with the football players. I'mokay with the like, I was an
athlete. I grew up an athlete.I'm okay with the jocks and the
brutes and this idea that, like,there's a certain kind of
aggression that I get to takeout in this particular sport.
I'm also okay with that sameperson stepping off the field
and going to their daughter'srecital and crying like a baby.

Right.

Not because of any sort of definition of what a
man should be, but because ofevery definition of what a human
is.

When you were younger, were there any,
like, movies or anything else?Did you feel like you had other,
like, medium or shows oranything that you could watch
and be like, yep, I see thatthat tenderness reflected or did
you feel like you were Yeah. Andwhat were those things?

I grew up watching The Cosby Show. Yeah.
You know? And of course, we knowthat it's complicated. The name
is is triggering.
Right?

I know. Yeah.

But that show was nothing short of a
masterpiece. To see a man lovehis children in that way at that
time, right, where he ruled witha certain level of
communication. It was morecommunication than an iron fist.

That's right.

Like James Evans, I also value because he
was also a very normal figure inour community. A hardworking
blue collar man doing everythinghe could to keep his children
and family safe in the middle ofChicago. Right?

Yeah.

And that sometimes would then disallow
him the opportunity ofsensitivity. It would take some
of I don't have enough capacityfor sensitivity because the
stakes are so high. That's alsovery real. And then you get Bill
Cosby where the stakes are lowerbecause they have all the money.
Yeah.
Right? They have all thesuccess. And so now all I have

(11:00):
to do is love you. All I have todo is talk to you and figure you
out. Right?
And I have time and energy to doso. And I think both of them
were important in their ownways, but I think when it comes
to just seeing a father figure,I can't even say that. I would
argue both of them were veryimportant because James Evans
had a tenderness. It just lookeddifferently. If you knew it, you

(11:22):
knew it.
Right? You know what I mean?

Yeah. But it wasn't as, I guess, like,
coded or whatever, like, CosbyShow, you'd see that and be
like, oh, this is like picturebook tender and picture book
sensitivity.

Exactly. Right. It wasn't just go to your room.
It was go to your room, and I'mgonna come, and we're gonna have
a whole conversation so that Ican honor who you are as a
person and try to figure out howto best guide you.

Where did your dad fit in this spectrum?
I've heard he was a fly guy.

My dad was a little bit of both. My father
was like you know, it's funnybecause most of my career has
been about my mom, but my fatherwas so special. Me and my
siblings and my mom and mystepmom, we all laugh about it.
If you saw him, you would assumehe was menacing. He was a big,

(12:10):
broad chest, broad shouldercovered in tattoos.
He's got gold chains on. He'sgot all this hair on his head
and his beard. He looked likesomebody who knew somebody who
could get you killed. You knowwhat I mean? Like, he's or he
could get you killed.
Right? It's like Yes. My momalways said I fell in love with

(12:32):
the bad boy. Mhmm. Like, he wasthe bad boy.

That was his persona.

That was his persona. But and I'm talking all
the way down to the motorcycles,the calendars of naked women.

Yeah. All of it.

All of the things. Right? He was the bad
boy, But also, we wake his kidsup every day, feed them
breakfast, take them to school,kiss them goodbye, tell them
that he loves us. He was sosensitive and so tender. You
know, he was way moreaffectionate than my mother.
I always tell people I neverthought that there was anything
wrong with being gay because mydad kissed his boys. And so

(13:07):
because he kissed his sons, itdidn't seem strange for me to
see boys kissing. It was kindalike, yeah, like a boy kissing a
boy is like, well, my dad kissedme all the time. He kissed me on
my forehead, all over my cheeks,all over my face. Like, my
father was an affectionate man,and he was a fun time.
He was crazy. He could you know,he'd run around in the house in

(13:28):
his drawers doing somersaultsand, like, just a wild like, my
house was, like, crazy. Right?But at the same time, also would
say, hey. One, you're respectyour mother.
Two, on Saturday, we're get up.We're gonna do these chores. And
he was very hard on us about ourwork and making sure that we
took pride in our work. That washis thing. Take pride.
Take pride. This is your house.This will give you a real clue

(13:49):
of who he was. I remember oneday when I got to middle school,
everything went crazy. Myparents split up, and life just
turned upside down.
And I started to fail school,and I remember I got my first d
or something. And my father, Iremember him coming over, and
he's like, alright. So you havea d in math or whatever it is.

(14:10):
And I'm like, yeah. And he'slike, did you get this d because
this is the d you earned?
Like, this was the best that youcould have done, or did you get
this d because you weren'ttrying?

And

I said, I got this d because I wasn't really
trying. He said, okay. Sobecause you got this d because
you weren't trying, we're gonnahave to figure out some course
of discipline. Right? Had yougot this d because you were
trying, then I would have triedto figure out a way to help you
try a little harder, but Iwouldn't have had to discipline

(14:41):
you.
And then he said, now the nextreport card, I'm gonna ask you
these same questions, and I'mtrusting your integrity and that
you will always tell me thetruth. Don't lie to yourself.
Right? Tell me the truth. Andevery semester going forward and
I did not do better, but I wouldtell him the truth.
Sometimes it was like, dad, Itried really hard. I'm just not
good at science. And he wouldsay, okay. He just wanted us to

(15:04):
try.

Yeah. He wants to have that ethic. Yeah.

Yeah. And and I would always be honest, and he
would say, okay. Now we have tofigure out some sort of
disciplinary action. Right? Andwe would go through.
Right? We'd be like, look. Letme maybe I have to, you know,
clean up this, this, and thisfor the month. And he'd like,
that's not enough. We need tofigure out you have to
understand that there areconsequences.
Right? But he never had that'swhat I'm saying, very huxtable.
Like, he never had to scream atus. He never it was like, yo, I

(15:31):
wanna understand who you are inthis moment, but you got to be
honest with me. And my fatherwas a psychologist, I should
say.
So it's important to note that

So he had the tools to help to be like,
okay, this is

what we're do. And I I will all my mom, on the
other hand, was like, hey, getaway from me.

This is what's happening.

You stay away from me until I calm down, you
know.

Looking back on your life, do you see
like this moment when you feellike, okay, I came of age, like
this was my moment when I went.Was it 10? Was it that 10 year
old time? That was your shift.Then as a man, do you feel like
you're having that now too?
Like, you're having this nextmoment? It kinda sounds like it.
Like, other coming of age,whatever this, like, the next
act is. Mhmm. And how do you,like, kind of look and compare

(16:18):
those Yeah.

Yeah. I feel I would say my life was expedited.
My sort of maturation processwas expedited. I got to high
school at 12.

It's wild.

It's wild.

I think they would allow that today. I
don't even think that'spermitted.

They probably shouldn't, obviously. I'm 12
years old. There are 18 yearolds in the school. I got to
college at 16. So you figure, Idon't hit puberty or I really
really kind of step into pubertyuntil I'm in high school.

Yeah.

Like, I'm 14 as like I'm I'm going into my
junior year.

Yeah.

Right? And so You

had those first two years being young,
small, whatever, like, Tiny.

And then I come back junior year and I'm six
feet tall.

Damn.

Right? And everyone's like, who is the new
guy? Right? It was the wildestexperience dealing with the
growth and hair and voicedropping, sexuality. You're
finding your boundaries in yourlines, you feel uncomfortable in
your skin.
Right? So you have physicaldiscomfort, and then you have
emotional discomfort. I'm alsoposturing because I don't want
anyone to know I'm young, and soI'm sort of performing a kind of

(17:23):
teenage ness. Right? A kind ofadolescence to what I think I'm
supposed to act like at 16, 17,18, which of course is getting
me in trouble.
Yes. And so sex is happening,and this is that. Right? Because
I'm because I'm just trying tomake sure I'm keeping up.

Yeah.

I'm taking my mom's car and stealing mom's
car, driving to school, and likeyou know what I mean? Just doing
all the things that sometimes wedo. Now, at 30 I remember me
turning 30, my mother saysbecause my mom is very woo woo.
Right? So at 30, my mom is like,Jason, 30 years old.
Between 27 and 30, this is whenall the planets in the sky are

(17:57):
exactly the way they were theyear at which you were born.

Okay.

Right? In all of the astrology, they call it
Saturn return. So this is likeOkay. So everything has reset
itself. So basically, this isthe amount of time it would take
for everything to kind of beright where it was when you were
born.

It's like your celestial coming of age,
sort of.

Yeah. Okay. So like between 27 and 30, as they
say. Right? Now if I were tothink about that and then map
out what happens which thenmeans you're starting over.
Right? So, like, now lifebegins. So if I were to take
that as the beginning, 30, andmap out my life the same way I
did when I started my life, mybiological life at one, then

(18:35):
that would mean where I am rightnow is puberty again.

Mhmm.

Like, that I would be stepping into it would
be the same. Interesting. Yousee what I'm saying?

I get it. Yeah.

And that's exactly what it feels like.
Right? Like, I'm trying tofigure out who I am. I have all
kinds of things changing in mybody differently now. I'm
testing my boundaries again.
I'm trying to figure out who amI in the world, who are my
friends, am I still performing?Yeah. Right? And how can I fight
against that? All these things,it's happening again, and it

(19:06):
feels really uncomfortable.
I'm uncomfortable a lot of thetimes in my body for physical
reasons and emotional reasons.Right? All of a sudden, my hips
don't work the same. My kneesdon't work the same. Right?
My physical body isuncomfortable again, and I'm
trying to figure out how toaddress this. Right?

I know.

And my emotional

It's like funny, but it's not funny.

But it's not funny. Right?

I'm so interested in this because, I
mean, everybody calls it likemidlife crisis.

But I don't think it's a crisis.

But it's really like I think your mom's
right. Yeah. It has so many ofthose same hallmarks of going
through puberty, yeah, of havingthat coming of age moment.

Exactly. And honestly, it doesn't feel like a
crisis.

Mm-mm. How does it feel to you?

It feels like an introduction to the new version
of me. Right? Whatever the nextversion of me is, I'm just
trying to understand who I'mbecoming because I can feel
myself changing emotionally,physically, mentally,
spiritually, intellectually. Ican feel myself changing. I'm
trying to give myself enoughgrace and be patient enough and

(20:08):
to not panic and just go alongfor the ride, but it feels very
messy like it does when I was13, 14.

Yeah. Can you give, like, an example of
that or not?

Let me say this. I don't think I actually know
what masculinity is.

Oh, okay. But what did you think it was
before, and what are you, like,questioning now?

I think I thought it was strength and
protective qualities and acertain kind of integrity and,
like, a certain kind of, like,stalwartness. Right? Like, a
kind of

Yeah.

Like, the rock. Yeah. And my more evolved
version of it was, like, alsosome sensitivity Yes. And some
compassion. Now I'm thinking tomyself, my mama raised me for
half of my childhood, and mymother was strong and
protective.
My dad was the affectionate one.He would have been the feminine

(20:57):
one technically based on thesedefinitions, and it just makes
me wonder what any of itactually means. And I've heard
people say, well, there's a kindof energy. And I'm like, well,
that isn't you can't codifythat. That isn't an actual
that's not science.

Yeah.

Right? Like, what is it? Right? Because I
understand maleness. Mymaleness, I cannot escape.
I can't escape the fact thatbiologically, I am a humongous
person.

My daughter today, I was like, I'm
interviewing Jason Reynolds, shewas like, man, that man's big.

Yeah. Like, it's a big person. Right?

She's like, he's really tall. He makes dad
look not that tall. I'm like, Iknow. Anyway, but yes, you can't
escape that. That's your body.
That's your physical body.

I can't do nothing about that, but that's
my maleness. Yeah. But I don'tknow if I can associate the rest
I don't associate my maleness tomasculinity.

Are those just things that we've learned
or you've learned to think of asthat? Yeah.

And I'm really sitting here wondering, what if
I could grow up and just be me?Like, what if I had the freedom
to be me before I was told thatI had to act like a boy? Wash

(22:11):
the white clothes on Monday andput them on the stone heap. Wash
the colored clothes on Tuesdayand put them on the clothesline
to dry. Don't walk barehead inthe hot sun.
Cook pumpkin fritters in veryhot sweet oil. Soak your little
clothes right after you takethem off. When buying cotton to
make yourself a nice blouse, besure that it doesn't have gum on
it because that way it won'thold up well after a wash. Soak

(22:32):
salt fish overnight before youcook it. Is it true that you
sing bena in Sunday school?
Always eat your food in such away that it won't turn someone
else's stomach. On Sundays, tryto walk like a lady and not like
the slut you are so bent onbecoming. Don't sing bena in
Sunday school. You mustn't speakto wharf rap boys not even to
give directions. Don't eatfruits.
On the street, flies will followyou, but I don't sing bena on

(22:53):
Sundays at all and never inSunday school. This is how to
sew on a button. This is how yousweep a corner. This is how you
sweep a whole house. This is howyou sweep a yard.
This is how you smile to someoneyou don't like too much. This is
how you smile to someone youdon't like at all. This is how
you smile to someone you likecompletely. This is how you sit
at a table for tea. This is howyou set a table for dinner.
This is how you set a table fordinner with an important guest.

(23:15):
This is how you set a table forlunch. This is how you set a
table for breakfast. This is howto behave in the presence of men
who don't know you very well. Inthis way, they won't recognize
immediately the slut I havewarned you against becoming.
Be sure to wash every day evenif it is with your own spit.
Don't squat down to playmarbles. You are not a boy. This
is how a man bullies you. Thisis how to love a man.

(23:35):
And if this doesn't work, thereare other ways. And if they
don't work, don't feel too badabout giving up. This is how to
spit up in the air if you feellike it and this is how to move
quick so that it doesn't fall onyou. This is how to make ends
meet, always squeeze bread tomake sure it's fresh. But what
if the baker won't let me feelthe bread?
You mean to say that after all,you are really going to be the
kind of woman who the bakerwon't let me the bread.

That was an excerpt from Jamaica Kincaid's
short story Girl. It's a litanyof commands and commandments. We
included this condensed versionof Jason's reading for the sake
of time, but you can check outin our show notes or on
Instagram to see his full, verybeautiful reading. This story is
essentially a daughter's lifescripted before she can even

(24:21):
write it herself. And the rulesof masculinity are prescribed
just as tightly, something Jasonhas felt in his own life.

So that's girl. Wow.

Yeah. When did you read that?

Probably when I was 22, 21, something like Yeah.
I mean, this is that thing thatwe're talking about. Right?
Expectation. Right?
This is how you be everybody butyou. Let me give you the rules.
Every rule, every step has to bein lockstep with a stereotype,
with the expectation and theconvention of what a girl is
supposed to be. And to me, whycan't we see problems in this?

(25:02):
This is still the way it goesfor men and women.
Yeah. This is how you carryyourself, young man. This is
what you do. This is what you

That's Jamaican Kincaid who wrote that.
It's not like some recent piecethat know what

It's like this is how you punch a man in the
face. You don't cry ever. And ifyou do, you never let nobody see
you cry, especially you know awoman. Because if a woman see
you cry, either she gonna takeadvantage of you or she not
gonna feel safe around youbecause she gonna feel like you
can't protect it. Right?
This is the same sort of thingsthat we've been given.

You can make your inverse for that.

Of course. I think, to me, I understand these
rules at a particular time. WhenI think about safety and I think
about racism, even in today'sculture when I think about
sexual violence. Right? So it'snot that I don't understand the
rules.
It's just that I am consciousenough to know that they make me

(25:49):
sad. That's all of them. For us,for the boys, for the girls.

And also that, like, in some ways, we
internalize them. It's like wewe address it before it's ever
happened. I mean, yes, sometimesyou have to from a very early
age, like, put on your armor.

Yes.

But also there are a lot of cases in
which people are like tellingyou here's your armor, here's
this, here's that. From an agewhen like you were saying you
you had that little force fieldwith Aaron and you could just be
you, that was you know, what joyand we don't get that.

Yeah. Armor should just be armor. It should
not be skin. Right? It shouldnot be skin.
And what is happening is thatarmor is becoming skin. We can't
tell the difference anymore. Andthat scares me. I don't wanna be
whatever version of masculinityy'all keep telling me I have to
be. Why is the only version ofmasculinity?
Why are all the benchmarksviolent? Aggressive? I don't

(26:37):
wanna do it. I'm not interested.

It's so hard because the reality of,
like you said, violence, it'sall real. It is real. Yes. And
as a woman walking in the world,like, I'm like, I do walk around
being now I'm like, oh, I'mkinda old. I don't know if I'm
gonna get raped.
I'm like, maybe that fear isgone now. But, you know, like, I
just remember, like, when I wasin DC way long time ago and
teaching and stuff, and I wouldcome home late at night and, you

(27:00):
know, I would just be like,okay. We're gonna park my car. I
need to make sure it's under alight. Make sure so I I am,
like, thinking of those things.

Which is fair.

It's fair because that's

real. Absolutely.

At the same time, it's like that can't also
be the way that I view myself inrelationship to all men. That
That can't be the way that Iteach my son and my daughter to
think about men, to think aboutthemselves. It's not easy as a
parent to go out and wrestlewith an entire culture of sexist

(27:29):
expectations for the good ofyour child. And yet, that is
exactly what Jason's parentsdid. The link between their
guidance and Jason's work as awriter and a thinker is clear to
him.
And even as Jason's fatherpassed on in 02/2014, he left
his son with one final beautifullesson.

My father's death was one of the greatest
phenomenons of my life. And Iknow that that's different than
most people's story, but itwasn't catastrophic. It wasn't
it just wasn't that way. It itwas epiphantic, if anything. I
learned a lot about my life.
I I mean, I was raised in ahousehold where death wasn't a
scary thing. When I was growingup, my dad didn't believe in

(28:14):
anything, and my mom believed ineverything.

Like metaphysics and all that. Right?

Everything. All the eastern faiths and
religions, but then go to theCatholic church every Sunday.
Yeah. But was raised in theBaptist church, you know. And
so, like, all this, like, as ahodgepodge of stuff and
information and ideas.
Right? It was sort of an ideashousehold. Right? And so my mom
was able to socialize death in away that felt safe when I was
young. So it never had to be ascary thing.

(28:40):
And because of that, when myfather died, it was more like,
well, there's peace here. And,you know, he told me, if you're
looking for me, you'll find mein the mirror. I look just like
him. I sound like him.Everything.
I walk like him. It's thestrangest thing. And I tell
people all the time that when hedied, the day he died, I felt
ten feet tall. It was thestrength. Like, I stepped into
something else.
It was as if and so I miss himdearly. He was my friend. We

(29:04):
kind of beefed for fifteenyears, and then at 25, we kind
of put it back together. So from25 to 36, I had him, and he was
like my buddy. He was my guy.
He's a confidant, and I need himI think that's what I'm going
through. My life right now isreally kind of messy and naughty
and stressful, and I could usehim now, right, to just sit with
and smoke a cigar and listen tohim tell me some stories about

(29:28):
him getting through some of thetougher moments of his time
here. I also just feel fortunateto have had him because I grew
up with the cool parents. Andmost people who grew up with the
cool parents are scarred bytheir coolness. Right?
Because their coolness typicallyresults in a kind of
irresponsibility. That's notwhat happened for me. They

(29:48):
wanted their children not tonecessarily be their friends as
children, but they wanted theirchildren to trust them and to
feel open. And then as we gotolder, we then could become
friends, and we did my mom tellseverybody, this is my best
friend. He's my best friend.
My dad, before he died, he said,You're my best friend. I'll
always cherish knowing what thatfeels like. Right? Knowing what
it's like to have a person makeyou and then sort of cleave to

(30:12):
you as more than the thing theymade, but understanding who you
became and that being the thingthey cherish. And the humility
that that requires for a parentto look at the child and say,
you really inspire me.
You've changed me. I've learnedfrom you. I want you around me.
That what? What a gift.
And I want that for you, by theway. I hope you have that as

(30:33):
your babies continue to grow. Ihope that happens for you. It's
a special thing.

I feel like not just for them, for kids, for
parents, for moms who don't havea dad in the life or whatever,
like, you have, like, stood inthis gap. And there are other
authors.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

Yes. Of course. But you are definitely,
like, one of the most importantauthors, I would say, that is
standing in this gap and helpingI think adults view this as,
helping boys, young men, girlsunderstand young men. Sure. And,
like, forming these differentways that kids can be in the

(31:13):
world.

I hope so.

Yes. You are. But for you to, like, go
through that personally, I don'tknow. Do you feel like a burden,
I guess, of that now you're,like, re exploring these things?
Like, do you feel like, okay.
I need no. I'm gonna go back andlet me let me, like, come back
and, like, go to the next levelwith my what's, like, like, what
else? What are, like, otherthings? You explore so many
different kinds of, yeah, whatit is to be a young man in so

(31:36):
many different bodies andsituations. You know?

Yeah. If anything, I just feel like this
is sort of what I'm here to do.It feels like vocational. It's
just like this is my task. Thisis my cross to bear.
And also, all my books are aboutthe same thing, right, which is
how can we ask ourselves, like,how can we complicate what it is
to be a boy? Right? How can wecomplicate it, explore it,

(32:02):
expose it, challenge it, right,create space for it, free it,
laugh at it, cry about it. Youknow, that's it. I wanna make
sure that every version ofboyhood is honored and has been
given a kind of megaphone.
Like, you get to say your ownname and you get to say it your
way, and that's it. So if youare a little gay black boy, you

(32:25):
get to be that. And you get tobe that proudly, and you get to
be that strongly, and you get togo through the range of emotions
that every human being has, notbecause you are gay or black or
a boy, but because you are aperson. Right? My job is to
humanize all of us.
Like, that's all I'm trying todo.

Jason's reading challenge is a
collection of books that pushback against the narrow
definitions of boyhood andgirlhood that many of us have
come to live by.

I'm gonna go with Love That Dog. I'm gonna go
by by Sharon Creech, Salvage theBones by Jasmine Ward, Monster
by Walter Dean Myers, This Thingof Ours by Fred t Joseph, Honey
I Love by Heloise Greenfield,Megan Kincaid's Girl. I think
what they all have in common isthat they're challenging the

(33:21):
convention of gender. LikeSalvage the Bones, Esh is
dealing with girlhood on aknife's edge. Right?
Or if you think about Love ThatDog, we're talking about a
little boy who's learning towrite poetry.

Yes.

Or if we're dealing with Monster, that's an
mean, you're talking aboutincarceration, things of that
nature. But what happens?Absolutely. Honey I Love, the
tenderness of Honey I Love. Imean, the one where he's like,
you know what love is?
Love is daddy telling you tostay home and take care of your
mama and you do it. Right? Like,you know what

I mean? Yeah. This

idea that love isn't a squeezing thing. Like,
there's a difference between anembrace and a vice. Love doesn't
have you in a vice. Right? Itisn't squeezing you.
It's embracing you. It'screating warmth for you. It's
creating safety and protectionfor you, but that's not
gendered. Like, it's notgendered. Right?
And I think these stories aresort of about that in different

(34:12):
ways.

You can find Jason's reading challenge
and all past reading challengesat the readingculturepod.com.
And this week's Beanstackfeatured librarians are not
actually librarians, but theyare integral members of the
literary community who arepioneers when it comes to

(34:36):
student voice and writing. Andthey also happen to be good
friends of Jason's. Today, wewelcome Kathy Crutcher and Sasa
Akhil from Shout Mouse Press.They share about their upcoming
book, Bright Before Us Like aFlame, which Jason Reynolds has
called a gift and for which aprevious guest of this podcast,

(34:57):
Elizabeth Acevedo, wrote theforeword.

Kathy Crutcher (35:00):
So right before us, like a flame, is a
compilation of ten years ofpublishing youth writing by
ShoutMouse Press. ShoutMouse isa nonprofit organization based
in DC. We coach young people towrite and publish diverse and
inclusive books. And so far, wehave published over 500 young

(35:23):
people through over 64 andcounting books. And in so many
different genres, children'sbooks, graphic memoirs, novels,
personal essays, poetry, andcentering so many different
stories and communities.
So the young people that we workwith are all historically

(35:45):
underrepresented in thechildren's book marketplace as
authors. And so we're alwaysasking them, what's the story
that only you can tell that'snot out there that needs to be
written and needs to be readright now? So this book is ten
years of those storiesaltogether with the writing

(36:06):
prompts and kind of the storybehind the story, behind those
pieces that are used to inspirea new generation to write their
own stories.

I did want to inquire about the writing
prompts because it's so greathow there will be a story, but
then it appears there's, awriting prompt that might have
been related to that storypreceding it. So if you could
just speak a little bit to thewriting prompts and their place
in this book.

Sasa Aakil (36:35):
Yeah. I can take that one. So, the writing
prompts, their addition to thisbook was kind of somewhat like,
we're kind of far into the gameof the editing process. But what
we've realized is that we reallywanted to engage the young
people for whom this book wasactually made and, you know,
organized for. And so thinkingabout ways to get people engaged
in the stories that they'vealready seen and that they've

(36:56):
already connected with, a reallyeasy way to do that is to bring
out those prompts that were usedto write those initial stories.
And so what we did was we wentthrough, like, lots of the
actual, like, teaching materialthat we had produced a shot must
have produced for many of thewriting workshops that had taken
place in the past. And then wepulled directly prompts from

(37:18):
there as well as some othersthat we came up with, you know,
throughout the process. Reallythinking of it as a way to, one,
be a teaching tool foreducators, but also, and most
importantly, I think to me,really engage the young people
who often are just looking forthat spark or looking for that
one bit of courage to actuallystep into the process of
writing. And so it seems like areally fun and easy way to do

(37:39):
that.

This has been the reading culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with Jason Reynolds
again I'm your host Jordan Lloydbookie and currently I'm reading
atmosphere by Taylor JenkinsReid and my advanced reader copy
Bright Before Us Like a Flameedited by Sasa Akhil and Kathy
Crutcher. If you enjoyed today'sepisode, show some love and give

(38:05):
us a five star review. If you'relistening on Apple or Spotify or
wherever you listen, please takea moment to leave a written
review. It just takes a secondand it truly truly helps our
show thank you and to learn moreabout how you can help grow your
community's reading culturecheck out all of our resources
at beanstack.com and remember tosign up for our newsletter at

(38:26):
the readingculturepod.comforward slash newsletter for
special offers and bonus contentthis episode was produced by Mel
Webb with lower street media andscript edited by Josiah Lamberto
Egan thanks for listening andkeep reading.

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