Keep Me Out of It: Eliot Schrefer on the Costs and Benefits of Self-Erasure

Episode Transcript
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Eliot Schrefer (00:01):
Being in the closet means, like, sort of a
self policing at all times of,like, do am I gonna give a tell
that will reveal me to otherpeople and that would be
terrible and scary?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:10):
Is there ever a good side to concealing
or even erasing, our honestthoughts, our feelings, our
identities? Eliot Schefer spentmost of his teen years hiding
his queerness, a sort of selferasure driven by self
preservation. But can selferasure sometimes be

(00:31):
constructive? Say, for example,an artist who decides to strip
away the autobiographicalflourishes from his art and, in
the process of removing himself,creates a more universal work.

I think it caused me to get over some of
the sort of narcissisticimpulses in my writing, and not
make it about me and impressing,but instead about having the
best reading experience I couldimagine.

Maybe we shouldn't always be able to see
the identity behind the art. Imean, hey, knowing more about
the people who write ourfavorite books is, well, kinda
our whole thing on this show.But is it sometimes better if an
author just anonymously slidesover some food for thought and
then slips away without everrevealing their own taste in the

(01:16):
matter?

It is my responsibility as a writer to
come up with great questions forthe reader to have as they read,
but it's it's not myresponsibility to come up with
great answers.

Elliot Schrefer is a best selling
author known for his young adultand middle grade works,
including Endangered and the 3other books in his Ape Quartet
series, as well as Queer Ducksand Other Animals, and The
Darkness Outside Us, along withits recently released sequel,
The Brightness Between Us. APrince honoree and 2 time

(01:46):
finalist for the National BookAward, Eliot's works often
explore themes of empathy, thenatural world, and fantasy. In
this episode, Eliot talks aboutdifferent ways he's practiced
self concealment in his life andin his stories, and why he
thinks it's made him better atconnecting with his teen
audience. He'll explain why theworld needs fewer leaders and

(02:09):
more sensitive types, and he'llreveal why his current
influences include Carl Sagan,Jane Goodall, and Eeyore, the
donkey. My name is Jordan LloydBookie, and this is The Reading
Culture, a show where we speakwith diverse authors about ways
to build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities.

(02:30):
We dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
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(02:53):
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I one time was interviewing MTAnderson, and he talked about
how being a speck of dust in thelong arc of the universe felt
very relieving to him, and thatreally gave me pause. And I

(03:59):
wanted to know if that issomething that, like, scares you
or if it is something that doesgive you a sense of relief.

That is amazing. I knew I liked that guy. That is
absolutely amazing because thatis literally like something I
have said within the last fewdays. Is that, yeah, there's you
know, Carl Sagan has this pieceof writing called Pale Blue Dot,
which is basically about, youknow, the first time we saw
earth from the outside fromspace. We got to know how
vulnerable it seemed.
This picture of this little bluefragile globe surrounded by this

(04:30):
immense vast black space. AndCarl Sagan wrote that it makes
all the like rise and falls ofkings and queens and pandemics
and wars and even all yourpersonal goals feel very small
in relation to that. And I thinkyou could either you can go two
directions with that sort ofpiece of information. Right?
There's a, like, existential,nothing matters, therefore, life
is meaningless, or nothingmatters.

(04:52):
It's all gonna be fine. Right?Like, don't, like, don't carry
yourself a little lightlybecause, you know, it doesn't
nothing's gonna be that big adeal. I think that's kind of the
stance I take. You know, it'sfunny.
My my husband is very much theopposite, And we realize that
he's the exuberant pessimist. Sohe's sure that everything is in
crisis and everything's gonna beruined, but he has, like, such
high color energy to anyinteraction. And, I'm the

(05:15):
melancholy optimist. So I'm sortof like Eeyore, where because
we're just on this hunk of rockgoing around the gaseous ball in
the solar system, like, nothingreally matters and therefore
it's all gonna be fine. Butthat's sort of a, a melancholy
stance to have.
So I'm sort of like, oh, it'sokay. You know, that's like my
role in life. And I think, Iguess novel wise, maybe I'm
giving a bit of that by writingabout non human experiences and

(05:39):
other places and other times.That it's a way of, I think,
allowing yourself to take ourlives more a little more
lightly. And I don't meanunseriously, but just there's
less cause for wringing yourhands when you realize how small
we are in the in the big scale.

Yeah. And when you were I will bring it to
your childhood now. Thank youfor sharing that. I think that's
interesting that you're I'mtrying now I'm thinking about my
husband, like, I wonder whichwould how we would fall on those

Our theory is every couple has one arm.

Gregory Maguire (06:06):
I think

he might be the Eeyore.

The Melancholy Optimist?

Yeah. I'm

not sure if Eeyore is an optimist. He might
be a Melancholy Pessimist,Eeyore. He just has all of them.

Yeah. But has has might bring that energy.

Yeah. Like, one one partner needs reassuring,
and the other one needs sort ofenergizing and directing.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No. That is that is us.
Okay. Good. This will be great.We're I'm in stand in for him
now.

Doing exuberant testimonies. Thank you, Jordan.

And now when you were a little human,
did you think about these thingsas a as a young person to bring
back childhood? Were youthinking about, like, your place
in the universe?

I don't know. I have I do have a memory
actually, pretty distinct, ofbeing maybe in 5th grade. And my
dad was carrying me to bed.Like, it was just the way, like,
I went to bed. It's like hewould pull me over his shoulder
and, like, walk me upstairs tomy bedroom.
And I remember I loved thatmoment of the day so much. And I
was staring up at the ceilingand I had this thought of like,
oh my gosh. Like, when we die,we're not necessarily going

(07:05):
anywhere. It's just gonna beblank. I remember that was like
a shocking feeling to have as a5th grader.
And it was sort of seemeddesperately unfair. And I was
like, why isn't everyone talkingabout this? Like, that's it's
crazy that we don't that doesn'tdominate our lives. That we just
talk about groceries and petsand everything else. And so I
think for me, books were a wayto have those conversations.

(07:27):
Because I was Especially goinginto my early teen years, I
kinda felt that the essentialmeaninglessness of everything
was a source of sadness for me.Like, why do anything? Like, why
does anything really matter? Andit took me actually I sort of
came around to science as a wayto deal with that and it was a
book on evolution. It's calledThread of Life and I got it from

(07:49):
the local public library.
And I read it when I was maybein 8th grade And it was said
that natural selection was thereason we exist. There's a
history and a movement withinthe natural history that
actually makes everything have areason in its own way. And for a
kid who grew up withoutreligious influences, I think it
gave me a sort of structuringconcept that made everything

(08:11):
feel a little bit more stableand knowable. And so it's funny.
I hadn't realized science couldprovide meaning in quite that
way.
I thought science raisedquestions, but it didn't provide
answers. And but thinking aboutevolution, like, oh, there
there's a reason for everythingwe do and who we are, was really
reassuring as a kid.

Yeah. So interesting. So you did not grow
up with, like, religiousreligious influences, you said?

No. Well, my parents were Unitarian
Universalists, which is as closeto atheist as you can get while
still having a religion. So

Yeah. It's, like, it's interesting that you
found that science and biology,like, so early on like that too,
you know, because there is thisinterplay in your work, I guess,
between science and fantasy. Andso we covered science a little,
but when did you discover youryour love for fantasy?

Yeah. Yeah. I was really drawn to the window
function of literature more thanthe mirror. I really loved the
idea of getting somewhere faraway and learning about
somewhere else. Kind of likethat pale blue dot experience of
getting a sense of scale thatwhatever's going on doesn't
matter as much.
And I was just really curiousabout those other places and

(09:16):
other things.

Do you remember from your childhood,
what were some of the books thatreally got you started on loving
fantasy? What were some ofthose?

So I I was reading up, I guess. These were
technically adult books, likethe Dungeons and Dragons tie in
novels is the Dragonlanceseries, Forgotten Realms, and
just those 3.99 drugstorepaperbacks, you know, with some
young woman in a chain mailbikini and a dragon with a name
that's too long to pronounce.And, you know, just really just
combat and all that. I loved it.Then I worked my way into The

(09:47):
Hobbit from there.
I assume a lot of the children'sclassics set up fantasy to them.
Like, Missus Frisbee and theRats of Nym, say was another
childhood favorite.

Was your household like a bookish
household? Were your parents andbrother and everybody readers?
Or

Yes. Yep. There was a lot of reading in our
house. In the evenings, I'doften be my dad with this
newspaper, and my mom might havea novel. And, it was definitely
encouraged.
We weren't allowed to have aNintendo, which that was hard in
1988 not to have a Nintendo. Andall the other kids knew how
Super Mario worked and I couldjust kinda watch. But looking
back, I think it must have beenso insufferable for my parents

(10:25):
to have my brother and me, like,complaining nonstop about the
child abuse we're experiencingby not having a video game
system. But ultimately, I didread a lot more and there would
just be like a big, paper bagfull of toilet paper rolls and
paper towel rolls and pieces ofpaper and cardboard. And, you
know, if I was said I was bored,like, you just had to go to that
bag and, like, make something upusing all those old materials in

(10:48):
the house.
That kind of creative processwas very much part of my
childhood as well. If nothing'sinteresting to you, it's up to
you to find somethinginteresting to do. That's what
writing is for me now.

So that's what it is now. And was there
also a lot of talk about orwriting happening in your home?

Yeah. My father was a history major back in
college, and my mom didn'tattend university, but was
always very interested inwriting and books. In fact, she
was writing books in the house.She wrote 3 books while I was a
kid.

What? Your mom wrote 3 books when you were
a kid? Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. They weren't ever, published, but she
was always working on them. AndI think sometimes I read an
article about how when we talkabout, like, Mozart being a
harpsichord player, that'spartly his genius in knowing
harpsichords, but it's alsothere were harpsichords in the
house, you know? And so he knewthat was around because his dad
was a harpsichord player.
And I think sometimes about howwriters are are not just

(11:38):
individuals, but they'resocially made. Like what's
around you as a kid and what'svalued is why we become writers.
And so my mom was always typingand working on her books. And
it's like in most houses wherethe youngest person is the one
who can work the printer. So itwas a dot matrix printer in
1988, Columbia, Maryland.
And I remember helping her pulloff all the side pieces and you

(11:59):
have to separate all the pages.And I became very much part of
her process. And as a kid, Icould see that she wasn't
getting her books published eventhough she was trying. And I
think I internalized that alittle bit, that this is
something that is wonderful todo, but is impossible to
actually manage. I just assumedwriting would would be awesome,
but it just couldn't work.
So I really didn't even knowthat was the story I was telling

(12:22):
myself. And so when I went tocollege, I entered as an
evolutionary biology major. Ididn't finish that way, but I
was thinking about the sciences.And after I graduated, I just
did everything else but right. Iworked at a boarding school for
a year.
I waited tables. I temped. And Iwas just out with friends in my
early twenties and just saidfrom nowhere obviously, if we

(12:45):
all had time and money, we'd bewriters. My friends were like,
No. No.
No, no, my friend. You couldn'tpay me to do that. And I
realized like, oh, I justassumed this was everyone's goal
and we were all too scared to gofor it. And really, it was mine.
It was what I wanted to do, andI hadn't even realized that I
was cutting off the option tomyself, just assuming giving up

(13:05):
before I started.
So that's when I turned towriting my first book, which as
someone who grew up with a lotof sword and sorcery fantasy
novels, it was this way toolong, slow paced sword and
sorcery book that never wentanywhere. Even my best friend
couldn't read it.

Even your best friend. But I've read
actually though that you reallyenjoy the process of writing it,
and you mentioned earlier thatyou writing is like this thing
that you loved and foundinteresting to do. So maybe you
can speak a little bit moreabout why that is or speak more
to that.

Yeah. I guess, well, writing is, for me, it's
the easiest path to that flowstate where just everything
disappears. And I don't rememberwhat was happening earlier that
day, what I have to do later.I'm just totally banished into
whatever I'm writing. And thatis so It's pleasurable on its
own, just during that state, andthen it's also it's great to

(13:58):
have a vacation from whateverelse is going on in your mind,
like to be that fullytransported.
And I think writing is just oneway that people can do that. It
can happen running or playingbasketball or playing violin.
But it's something when I talkto kids, I often suggest no one
can tell them what their flowstate should be, but really pay
attention about what absorbsyou, especially if it's

(14:19):
something that you're doingcreatively or or physically, and
cultivate that because it's agreat state of being, and I
think it's really important forbeing a healthy human.

Yeah. I like that way of, like, thinking
of just fine as opposed to Ifeel like there's a lot of
emphasis on kids to find yourpassion. And so, you know, which
is a different way a differentway of thinking about something
than find your flow state, whatlifts you in a way. You know?

Yeah. When how awful for a kid that feels like
they have no passions, just betold, like, find one. Check them
out,

check back

in once you got me.

Exactly. Yeah. Or or like an adult,
honestly. I mean, it's not evenfor kids. You know?
Find your passion. If you'redoing your passion, then you're
not gonna feel like you'reworking. You never work a day in
your life. It's just a real partof our narrative as opposed to
Do you

remember as a kid being told, well, this is
the happiest time of your life?And I remember often as a kid,
hey, it was not the happiesttime of my life. And there were,
like, moments I was like,really? This is as good as it
gets.

Like, oh, shit.

I'm in control. But I think now the version of
find your passion is, like chaseyour curiosity, which I think is
an improvement because justnotice what makes you curious
and lean into that, I think, ismore manageable ask than saying,
go find a passion.

Yeah. I agree. That makes more sense.
And, you know, like, for somepeople, in my family, for
example, I think that flow statecan be social, like saying a
team sport, like basketball orfootball, but it sounds like for
you, it's a little moresolitary. And, yeah, I wonder if
that's something that yourealized early on.

I was definitely an observer. I feel like I was
very often kinda quiet andlooking at things and not
necessarily participating in thekid world around me. I would
always have my, like, one bestfriend and we would know each
other very well. But beyondthat, I was sort of undone by
how complicated everything wasand just sort of hung back and
and watched. And I guess thattime spent observing does make

(16:12):
you more internal and thinking.
So I guess that was I wasdefinitely, yeah, probably the
shyest kid in most of thesituations I was in. And people
would be surprised when theyfinally heard my voice. And that
would That was true, I think,even through college. Some of my
seminar professors, at at theend of the semester was like,
did you have a good time? I haveno idea because you didn't say
anything.
But I was just This

is my favorite class. I remember that.

Yeah. Exactly. I was having a great time. I just
wasn't talking. And, you know,now, it's very much not who I
am.
At the time, I thought it wasjust my temperament, but it's
also probably about comfortlevel and feeling like you're
known and seen and valued. And Imight have just been scared that
I wasn't.

Yeah. Essentially, I'm thinking about,
this in the context of QueerDucks, which is the best book,
and we'll talk more about itlater. I also love that duck
content came up in, theBrightness Between Us. But you
said that you you wrote thatbook really for yourself at that
age and, like, other kids whoare experiencing what you did or
when the world was telling you,like, it's not natural to be

(17:14):
queer. And I wonder when youwere growing up, did you turn to
writing or journaling, you know,to hash out some of those
feelings back then?

I didn't keep a journal or a diary, but there
was a way in which the internallife could come out in writing
in a way that I wasn't able tobring it out in interactions,
social interactions with otherpeople or to tell my truth. I
was in the closet for middleschool and most of high school
except for like 3 or 4 friends.And Yeah. I think certainly
reading books with LGBT contentand characters was really

(17:46):
important for me. And eventhose, I had to take from the
adult section.

Yeah. What did you read? Am I there was
hardly any

Yes. Like Michael Cunningham novels, Paul
Manette's book, Last Watch ofthe Night. Yeah. A lot of them
during those years were,

you know, about the interest Michael
Cunningham when you were in,like that's great. Okay. Go
ahead. Yeah.

I picked it up. Yeah. Yeah.

I was

like, this this definitely seems made for me
just based on the cover, butYep. It was definitely, like, it
was scary. Like, I I sort of Ithink now about teen readers who
are wanting to find stories inwhich they're represented or
that they can feel seen, and Igot that. But I also got the
impression that it was really,really terrifying to be an adult
gay man just based on the booksthat I was reading. And so it

(18:26):
was a mixed bag.
And so I think, you know, aboutthe idea of, like, giving
teenagers a chance to seethemselves, but also with hope
and optimism is a reallyimportant combo. Yeah. That's
where QueerDox came from was,you know, I just got this
master's in animal studies and alot of the research that's going
on right now about animalbehavior is in the diversity of

(18:46):
reasons that they have sex, notjust procreation. And that was
something that teenage me wouldhave really, really loved to
have known about, but that justwasn't available to me. And so I
often think, what did I needback then and and how can I
provide it now is sort of amotivating goal for me as a
writer?

(19:08):
I believe in aristocracy, ifthat is the right word and if a
Democrat may use it. Not anaristocracy of power based on
rank and influence, but anaristocracy of the sensitive,
the considerate, and the plucky.Its members are to be found in
all nations and classes and allthrough the ages, and there is a
secret understanding betweenthem when they meet. They

(19:29):
represent the true humantradition, the one permanent
victory of our queer race overcruelty and chaos. 1000 of them
perish in obscurity, a few aregreat names.
They are sensitive for others,as well as for themselves. They
are considerate without beingfussy. Their pluck is not
swankiness, but the power toendure. And they can take a
joke. I give no examples, it isrisky to do that, but the reader

(19:52):
may as well consider whetherthis is the type of person he
would like to meet and to be.
Their temple, as one of themremarked, is the holiness of the
heart's affections. And theirkingdom, though they never
possess it, is the wide openworld.

That passage comes from EM Forster's
1951 essay, What I Believe, inhis book 2 Cheers for Democracy.
And although Eliot clearly fitsthe bill of sensitive,
considerate, and plucky, heactually chose to read it
because, for him, it perfectlycaptures his middle school
reaction to another of Forster'sworks, his 1910 novel, Howard's

(20:31):
End.

I wanted to give a lecture on Howard's End. I had
a, a moment when I was readingHoward's End of just feeling
this for the first time. I was Iread it in middle school. I was
a weird middle schooler, But themovie came out when I was in 6th
grade with Helena Bonham Carterand Emma Thompson and Anthony
Hopkins. And I saw this movieand I just felt this like, for

(20:54):
the first time, theconversations they were having
and who these 2 Schlegel sisterswere just felt like, I want them
to be my friends.
Like, this is the people I waswaiting for. I can't Safety
Harbor Middle School doesn'thave this kind of person. This
is who I'm meant to be with.Like, these people were you
know, it's set in 19 08 so farin the past. So I wound up
reading Howards End and it's, tothis day, is probably the most

(21:14):
important book I ever read.
And he just wrote a paragraphabout the kinds of people that
are important to him, which Ithink goes to the core of what I
saw in that book as a reader andwhat I wanted to be like and
what I try to cultivate inpeople I'm around. And, you
know, I didn't have that pieceof writing as a kid. I wish I
had, but I don't know. We'realways told, like, you should
become a leader or you should,like, change the world in sort

(21:35):
of these aggressive ways, and Ithink he's really valuing being
a good human to another human.Seeing deeply and being curious
about others and that seems soimportant as well.
And I think it's something thatreading can cultivate really
well, this sense of attachmentto those who are different from
you. And that there can beThat's not a sense A sign of

(21:57):
being sensitive isn't a sign ofweakness, but of something that
is a great asset that you canbring. And I think especially as
young men, we're often taughtsensitivity is where our
downfall is. Like we shouldn'tbe sensitive. We find ways to
police boys from beingsensitive.
And, I love that Ian Forster,instead of saying it's okay to
be sensitive, he's like,actually this is the highest

(22:18):
pantheon of great people are theones who are sensitive. I just
love that idea.

What's that last line again? Can you say
that last line?

Their temple, as one of them remarked, is the
holiness of the heart'saffections and their kingdom,
though they never possess it, isthe wide open

world.

Gregory Maguire (22:40):
I realized it was sort of toward the end of
high school, I began to questionwhether I was gay or not. And
that certainly positions oneselfon the margins of the dance
floor. You hung back. Youwatched. You didn't know what
you were thinking or feeling.
You just knew that to think andto feel and to notice what you

(23:03):
were feeling was the importantfirst step, and you could figure
out what it meant later.

That's a clip from the episode we did
with Gregory Maguire. He andEliot came of age a full
generation apart, and yet theirdescriptions of the experience
are remarkably alike. For bothmen, growing up and having to
come out first to themselves andthen to others has shaped the
way they view the world, and byextension, the way they write.

Being in the closet means, like, sort of a
self policing at all times of,like, am I gonna give a tell
that will reveal me to otherpeople, and that would be
terrible and scary. And so thisfeeling of self awareness is is
something that, like, once Icame out when I was 18, like it
took decades to sort of likefully peel off. Maybe I'm still
working on it, but peel awaythat armor I took on of the
protection of the sort of falseself that got me through. But

(23:53):
the side effect of that selfpolicing is maybe this sort of
extra attention to how peoplebehave and act. So being a good
observer is key to being awriter, and I think people who
are closeted are required tobecome really good observers of
tells and signs and indications.

So interesting. And it sounds like
you were, like, studying verycarefully, you know, how to
remove your queerness reallyfrom people's image of you. And
I actually wanted to talk moreabout how that role of being
removed shows up for you in yourwriting, and you've mentioned
that you're intentional aboutremoving ego, as you said, from

(24:34):
your work and about how thatactually led to you writing for
younger audiences. So can youtell me more about that?

Yeah. So my adult novels, I wrote 2 of them
before I switched over towriting young adult. And looking
back at those books, it'sunclear who I was writing for,
and actually I suspect I waswriting for myself more than for
a reader. And I think my biggoal was to have someone finish
the book and be, like, impressedby me. That was what I wanted
the effect to be for a reader.

(25:03):
I wanted someone to finish itand be like, wow. That Eli
Shrafer. He's something. Which,if you're the reader in that
situation, that's a reallyunpleasant thing to, like,
realize, like, oh, this wholeperson's, you know, motive for
writing this book is to, like,get me to be impressed by them.
Like, screw you.
I can go write someone wherethey care about me. But, like,
it's like the equivalent of,like, going on a date and they
just talk about themselves thewhole time. Yeah. And so I
didn't know it at the time, butit was switching to You that

(25:25):
broke me of that habit becausein young adult, I'm writing for
someone who's officially not me.They are officially of a
different age group.

Oh, yeah.

And so thinking about what is the teenager's
experience of this book going tobe, forced me to write for that
teenager and not for myself. AndI think it caused me to get over
some of the sort of narcissisticimpulses in my writing and not
make it about me and impressing,but instead about having the
best reading experience I couldimagine. And I think without

(25:54):
that shift in age group andwriting for young people, I
wouldn't have been able to doit. So I think I became a better
writer once I started writingfor kids. So I'm not gonna turn
around and not gonna look backanytime in the near future.

Okay. Well, that's good because we love your
books here. But, when you thinkabout it, you've really removed
yourself even further than justage. Right? Because you write so
much about animals.
Maybe you can talk more abouthow that came about.

Yeah. Well, I've always been really kind of
surprised looking at bookshelvesthat all our stories are about
humans. I mean, it makes sensethat most of our stories would
be about humans since we arehumans, but it also seems like
so we shut out other livedcreatures' experiences so
entirely. Outside of, like,picture books and middle grade
where you do actually haveanimal stories really centered.
But as soon as you get to adultlit, it's few and far between to

(26:42):
find Oh, yeah.
Animal stories. I've always beenreally interested in trying to
capture those stories, and someof my favorite books are Jane
Goodall's work, her memoirsabout her time with the
chimpanzees. And she by namingher chimps and following them as
individuals, she found they havethese amazing, like,
Shakespearean stories. You findthese rise and falls of heroes
and villains and just ascomplicated and emotionally

(27:03):
interesting as human stories,but they're they're chimps. And
I just loved those books.
And it was when I wasresearching about bonobos,
because I bought a pair ofbonobos pants.

I love that that I didn't realize I heard
that later. You're like, I'mplanning to get a pair of
khakis, got some chinos.

Oh my god. I bought those. Yeah. If I bought
Levi's, I

wouldn't feel bad because I'm like, I've
never thought about the bonobosyet, you know. But we bought
some bonobos in this house, butyeah. Yeah.

And I was reading the story of these
orphaned apes that are beingraised by humans and I, was just
so moved by it and I always tryto pay attention to when I'm
really moved by somethingbecause I'm I tend to be a
little bit more on the thinkyside and less on the feely side.
And the fact that I was feelingthese deep feelings, I was like,
oh, I, you know, explore that alittle bit more. So I ended up
reading more about them andgoing to going to Congo to say

(27:51):
at a bonobo sanctuary. And thatwas the beginning of this ape
quartet. And I think there's alot that bonds us with the
nonhuman world, and nonfictionabout animals can get a lot of
the facts and information out.
But for that, like, emotionalbonding that, like, we might
actually have nonhumancompanions that have a lot to
say about being human, I thinkfiction can do a lot for

(28:13):
establishing, like, an emotionalargument about how things are,
and that was kinda what I wantedto tackle with that series.

Fiction is the emotional argument for how
things are. That's a great line.But in this case, I want to
transition us to nonfiction andperhaps Eliot's most famous
book, Queer Ducks and OtherAnimals. We referenced it
earlier, but, in short, it's abook about queerness and its
widespread existence in theanimal kingdom. As you can

(28:42):
imagine, a You book with theword queer right in the title
gained some attention.

That came out in 2022. It was a really
interesting test case in softcensorship because we assumed
going in that as a Younonfiction, we were gonna live
in schools and libraries andinstitutions primarily, and not
in bookstores. And it wound upbeing the opposite was the case.
So it was very little librarypickup. I can totally empathize
with librarians who weren't ableto acquire the book for their

(29:10):
collection because it's clearfrom, like, the card catalog,
not card catalogs, clear fromthe digital catalog that this
book has LGBT content.
And so if they're all feeling atrisk of keeping their jobs or
staying safe, it was a step theycouldn't take. But that changed
in January of the following yearbecause it was a Prince honor.
And for a lot of systems, that'san auto buy. So they buy

(29:31):
anything that is in the NewberryPrints. Yeah, Gamut.
So it wound up in a lot ofschools in areas where they
never would have acquired itbefore. And that's when it
really became a much biggerthing. When, All Things
Considered did a short segmenton the book and their Facebook
post about it became like sortof the village green for people
coming to talk about the bookfrom both sides. I was about to

(29:54):
wade in and start fighting backwith some and then I just
realized that I shouldn't andthen the left wing trolls
started trolling the right wingtrolls and there was there was
one, one guy said, yeah, guys.This book is terrible.
I mean, my son read it, and nowhe's a duck. That's when I,
like, leaned back away from thekeyboard. I was like, it's gonna
be fine.

I'll let them take care of it. He's a
duck. I love it. I love I lovewhen it solves itself. It solves
itself.
Okay. Well,

a good tease nothing is more powerful than a
good tease, you know, when it'sdeployed well.

Yes. So true. So true. And it is
deployed, very well, in yourbooks. But what about your other
books?
Have you ever gotten responsesthat made you feel like, you
know, like you're just trulyconnecting with the people that
you are trying to reach?

There was actually a review for Darkness
Outside Us that I loved. It wasa reader review and, he said,
you know, I I gave this book tomy cousin and he's been really
conservative and homophobic, andnow all he wants to do is read
male male romances. I was like,it was a long journey going on
here, but I was like, oh,

this is

sort of a, you know but, like, what a great
Yeah. I mean, that's what I loveabout books. Right? Is they give
you this pathway to exploresomething that in a safe place
that you can control. So, like,a kid or any reader can put a
book down when it becomessomething that's beyond what
they're ready for or capable of.
And even unlike a movie whereit's a bigger ordeal to leave

(31:22):
the movie theater if it goesplaces you're not ready for.
Books are just perfect ways tonavigate what you might be too
scared to mention out loud orwhat you're curious about. And I
think just like when I was, youknow, a closeted teenager and
books made me feel seen and thatI existed in a broader world and
that there were other futuresout there if I didn't like my
current one, that continues tohappen day by day. And so I

(31:45):
think providing those kind ofstories is really important to
me for the ones who need it.

I know that cautiousness can be our doom
just as much as recklessness,but no one else seems to see it.
Eliot wrote that line in his newbook, The Brightness Between Us.
It stood out to me as I read,and I asked him about what it
meant to him. He responded thatwhat it meant to him wasn't
really the point.

One thing I love about writing a book is that it
is my responsibility as a writerto come up with great questions
for the reader to have as theyread, but it's it's not my
responsibility to come up withgreat answers. And in fact, it's
actually pretty annoying when abook clearly does have the
answers to the questions itraises. Then you're like, oh,
great. I'm just being lecturedto. Especially young people hate
that.
Right? Yeah. So I love raisingthe question of how do you

(32:31):
balance there's 2 siblings onthis exoplanet in Brightness
Between Us, and one is verycontent to stay home and garden,
and the other one wants to goout and explore their world and
thinks it's really important todo that. And their parents are
also divided along thisquestion. I just love exploring
both arguments and then lettingthe reader fall wherever they
want to along it.
There's also a thread inBrightness Between Us of the

(32:54):
question of whether humans evenshould be continuing. Like, if
we deserve to continue as aspecies. Like, should we be
settling other planets? Or havewe mucked up Earth enough that,
like, sorry, you had yourchance. Like, you're you're off
with some other species to giveit a try.
Yeah. And I think that's areally interesting question, one
that I don't have a good answerto. I'm actually not not sure
which way I would fall. Andluckily, I don't need to have an

(33:16):
answer. You know, if I was ifthis was a non fiction text
about that, then you mightexpect to have a conclusion that
would state what the outcome is.
But the fiction works betterwhen it doesn't get to an
answer. And then the reader canjust decide what they want.

Yeah. Do you consider yourself more of a
cautious or a reckless person?

Cautious. For sure. I'm like the most
defensive driver you're evergonna ever gonna meet. Like, 40
feet following distance, hands a10 and 2.

Yeah. But moments of of recklessness.
Yeah.

Yeah. Occasional reckless moments for sure. I
mean, Saturday night has to beSaturday night.

Speaking of humans letting another species
have the spotlight, Elliot'sreading challenge, beyond the
human experience, follows thetheme of viewing the world from
outside of our own perspectives.

I like the idea of reading beyond the human
experience or reading a point ofview that isn't human because it
reminds us that we're not theonly creatures worth caring
about, and I think it'swonderful to explore another
animal's consciousness or orwhat it might be like. And I
think you'll see the books inthe list run a huge range from

(34:30):
really anthropomorphized animalslike Wilbur in Charlotte's Web
who is clearly like a humanzipped into a pig suit. Like,
has all these human feelings inconversation and dialogue and
Yes. And then other radicalexamples where we really find
someone is really delving deepinto an animal's experience
like, Lalaine Paul's The Bees,which is really the point of
view of a bee pretty accuratelypresented. You know, some

(34:53):
flights of fancy but you get toknow what it would be like to be
in a hive as a bee.
I I just love that getting toopen a book and entering
something so different andcoming back to my own life a
little bit changed or havinglearned something about another
another creature.

You can find Eliot's reading challenge
and all past reading challengesat the reading culture pod dot
com. This episode's featuredlibrarian is Tammy McIntyre, a
library media specialist inGwinnett County, Georgia for
many years and now working withus at Beanstack. Today, she

(35:30):
offers a guiding principle shefollows as a librarian and
especially as a parent.

Tammy McIntyre (35:36):
So this is something I heard many years ago
when I started teaching. Acounselor shared it at a parent
night, and it's something myhusband and I try to live out as
well. So I am practicing whilepreaching, and that is to say
yes as much as possible withyour kids and to save the no's
for, like, the bigger thingsthat really could impact them.

(35:57):
And I think that that appliesreally well to reading and
books. Like, if your kid wantsto read graphic novels all the
time, say yes because they loveit.
As educators, obviously, we wantkids to advance. We want their
reading levels to increase.Like, those things matter. But
as far as, like, a kid lovingreading, I think saying yes to

(36:22):
the books that they're choosingis a really easy thing for
parents. And just to kinda trustthat it's all gonna work out,
like, let school teachers workon those reading levels, and you
as a parent say yes to what yourkids would love to read.
We try to do that with my my sonis 7, and, he's actually quite
behind reading wise, and hewants to read Skippyjon Jones

(36:45):
every single night. Like, that'sthe book that he wants to read,
and we just keep saying yes. Youknow, we're reading it to him.
He's not even reading it, butwe're reading it to him because
that's what he loves. Like, hecan even, like he he tells us
what's coming next.
You know? Those little momentsare really powerful too.

This has been The Reading Culture, you've
been listening to myconversation with Eliot
Schrefer. Again, I'm your host,Jordan Lloyd Bookey. And
currently, I'm reading The RedPencil and many other works by
Andrea Davis Pinkney and BeforeI Let Go by Kennedy Ryan. If
you've enjoyed today's episode,please show some love and give
us a 5 star review. It justtakes a second, and it really

(37:30):
helps.
It truly does, y'all. Thisepisode was produced by Jackie
Lamport and Lower Street Mediaand script edited by Josiah
Lamberto Egan. To learn moreabout how you can help grow your
community's reading culture, besure to check out all of our
resources at beanstack.com, Andremember to sign up for our
newsletter atthereadingculturepod.comforward/newsletter

(37:52):
for special offers and bonuscontent. Thanks for listening,
and keep reading.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Keep Me Out of It: Eliot Schrefer on the Costs and Benefits of Self-Erasure