February 5, 2025 • 48 mins
“For every child that thinks something is wrong with them, my books are saying, ‘be you, even if others can’t see you. The people who don’t see your beauty, see your glory–they have a problem. Something is wrong with their eyes, their soul.’” – Jewell Parker Rhodes
Raised mainly by her grandmother on a steady diet of porch stories (and lots of bread), Jewell Parker Rhodes spent decades writing for adults, perfecting her craft in order to “be good enough” to write for kids. For Jewell, that has meant creating books that speak to a range of kids with different experiences and backgrounds (like her grandma used to refer to as a “mixed blood stew”) and to the educators and librarians supporting them.
Jewell channels her inner Hamilton, as she notes, always writing like she is running out of time. And since she started writing for kids, she has indeed been prolific. Jewell is an award-winning author whose work spans adult and children's fiction. Her children’s books include her children’s debut, “Ninth Ward,” which won a Coretta Scott King Honor Award, “Bayou Magic,” “Towers Falling,” and “Ghost Boys,” a New York Times bestseller that continues to spark critical conversations about racial justice. And many, many more.
In this episode, Jewell opens up about her tumultuous childhood, reflects on her grandmother’s wisdom, and recounts many of the surprising twists of her life. That includes Jewell’s amazement at living this long and what she’d tell her students if she ever returned as a ghost.
Settle in for an episode you don’t want to miss with the exceptionally colorful stories of Jewell Parker Rhodes!
***
Jewell’s reading challenge, Comic Trips, celebrates timeless classics she adored as a child alongside today's graphic novels. It’s an opportunity to explore how the comic art form has grown and to challenge the misconception that graphic novels aren’t “real” books.
Learn more and download Jewell’s recommended reading list at thereadingculturepod.com/jewell-parker-rhodes
***
This episode's Beanstack Featured Librarian is once again Kat Gatcomb, previously a youth services supervisor at Nashua Public Library in New Hampshire and now in customer success at Beanstack! This week, she shared two key lessons she wished she had known earlier as a librarian.
***
Show Chapters
Chapter 1 - Bread Freak (03:27)
Chapter 2 - Spellbound (09:53)
Chapter 3 - Prince(ss) Valiant (15:13)
Chapter 4 - The People Could Fly (17:50)
Chapter 5 - Simply Complex (25:10)
Chapter 6 - Schoolbound (32:32)
Chapter 7 - You Can’t Pierce My Soul (35:25)
Chapter 8 - Gunnin’ for 120 (41:49)
Chapter 9 - Comic Trips, Jewell's Reading Challenge (45:10)
Links
- The Reading Culture
- The Reading Culture Newsletter Signup
- Jewell Parker Rhodes
- Jewell Parker Rhodes Instagram
- “The People Could Fly” by Virginia Hamilton
- Follow The Reading Culture on Instagram (for giveaways and bonus content)
- Beanstack resources to build your community’s reading culture
- Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Host: Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Producers: Mel Webb, Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media
Script Editors: Josia Lamberto-Egan, Mel Webb, Jackie Lamport, Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (00:04):
For every child that thinks something is
wrong with them, for why theworld acts cruelly or hatefully
towards them, my book Stike andBlack Brother by Brother, is
saying be you even if otherscan't see you. The people who
don't see your beauty, see yourglory, they have something wrong
(00:24):
with their eyes, their soul.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:27):
The world can often feel like a place
where understanding andacceptance are in short supply,
and it often feels like theworld is quick to overlook those
who don't fit neatly into itsnarrow definitions. For young
readers, that confusion andfrustration can feel even
sharper. It's why stories thatreflect them, celebrate them,
(00:47):
and empower them matter sodeeply.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (00:49):
I spent 30 years writing for adults,
practicing my craft in order tobecome good enough to write for
children. My goal was to writebooks for youth that would live
forever in a classroom, thatwould be amplified by a teacher,
amplified by a librarian,amplified by parents.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (01:12):
Jewel has spent decades perfecting her
craft, but her goal goes beyondsimply writing books that endure
the test of time.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (01:19):
I'm really fundamentally trying to give
children that self esteem andlet them know you start by
loving yourself so that whensomebody is hateful towards you,
it doesn't pierce your soul.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (01:32):
Jewel Parker Rhodes is an award
winning author whose work spansadult and children's fiction.
You may know her from 9th Ward,her Coretta Scott King honor
winning debut for young readers,or Ghost Boys, a New York Times
bestseller that continues tospark critical conversations
about racial justice. In all ofher work, Jewel explores the
(01:53):
themes of self acceptance,empowerment, and resilience,
often inspired by her ownchildhood experiences and the
cultural storytelling traditionspassed down from her
grandmother. In this episode,Jewel opens up about her
tumultuous childhood andreflects on her grandmother's
wisdom and on the surprisingtwists and turns of her life.
(02:14):
That includes Jewel's amazementat living this long and what
she'd tell her students if sheever returns as a ghost.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookey,and this is The Reading Culture,
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
(02:35):
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
for motivating students to readmore. Learn more at
beanstack.com and make sure tocheck us out on Instagram at the
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slash newsletter. Hey,listeners.
(02:59):
Are you looking for a fun, easyway to track your reading and
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app used by a community of over15,000 schools, libraries, and
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your local library to see ifthey offer Beanstack for free. A
(03:20):
parent?
Ask your child's teacher if theschool library already uses
Beanstack. And if you are aneducator searching for a fresh
alternative to AcceleratedReader, Beanstack is the perfect
tool to cultivate a thrivingreading culture. Ready to turn
the page? Visit beanstack.com tolearn more.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (03:43):
I wanted to ask about your name, where your
name comes from. I love yourname.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (03:48):
Actually, my mother once told me that she
had a dream that she was gonnahave a little girl and she
should name me Jewel. It's not afamily name or any other
connection. Just, you know, I amthe only Jewel. I did not have a
good relationship with my motherfor lots of my life. My mother
was not in my life.
(04:08):
So the sweetest memory I have isher telling me that she had a
dream to name Rachel.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:15):
Can you say a little bit more about that?
You you were born in Pittsburgh.Is that where your mom did grow
up though, or where your familygrew?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:21):
Yeah. I was born in Pittsburgh. My
family, we were quite poor, andmy mother disappeared when I was
about 8 months old.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:29):
Oh, wow.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:30):
So 5 of us cousins were growing up in this
sort of, like, 3 story tenementin the north side of Pittsburgh,
which is now very muchgentrified.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:39):
Yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:39):
But when I was growing up, there were,
like, vacant lots, rats as bigas cats, all kinds of problems.
My mother came back when I wasin the 3rd grade and there's
some sort of discussion aboutwhere was she. I do have a sense
that she actually might havebeen in prison.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:57):
Oh.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:57):
But anyway, mama came back. I was
finishing the 3rd grade, and shedecided we should all go to
California. My sister and I, myfather and her. And so I felt
torn from the only mother that Ihad ever known. I felt torn from
my other, quote, sisters andbrothers, you know, my cousins
because we were being raisedtogether.
(05:18):
Of course. And then as soon aswe got to California, my mother,
kicked my father out of thehouse. And I'm living with what
I felt was a stranger. I didn'tknow this lady from, you know,
the man in the moon. Mhmm.
And it was hard. My mom, sheended up having 7 husbands. At
one point, she was very muchinto that. That life was about
(05:41):
an exchange. So it wasn't aboutaffection.
It was about love per se. It wasabout what can I earn? What can
I get from this? Everything wastransactional. And she tried to
teach my sister and I all ofthat.
Wow. It's a lot of, like, classgrabbing. You know? Mhmm. And in
some ways, I very muchunderstand it because she was a
(06:04):
talented, beautiful woman livingin a world that did not make it
possible for her to be educated.
She was also in a world where,given the paternalism and the
patriarchy, beauty was thething, and she very often traded
on her beauty. And she just hadso much scope in her soul, but
not enough room in society thatwould allow her to execute on
(06:27):
that scope. You know? She couldhave been a CEO for heaven's
sakes. So by the time I was 14,my mother had kicked me out of
the house because I had takensome butter for, you know, my
bread.
And it was very clear. Butterwas for the gentlemen callers,
and margarine was for thefamily. And I had to leave, and
I went to live with my fatherand his new wife for a while.
(06:50):
And that was very traumatic too.So by the time I was a year
later, 15 going on 16, I hadearned enough money, worked in
half price bookstores, and Itold my father that I was going
back to Pittsburgh to be withgrandma.
Yeah. So I've been on my own fora very, very long time. And the
(07:12):
person that has been the root,the center, the blessing in my
life is my grandmother whotaught me about love and taught
me that the universe alwayseventually, and says this in my
book, 9th Lord. Alwayseventually shines down with
love. So things may be bad todayor bad in a year from now, but
(07:35):
always eventually, it'll getbetter.
She also taught me that peoplewere people were people. And so
she'd say, Joel Child, you're nobetter than anyone else, and
nobody's better than you. We'reall a mixed blood stew. Though I
knew about racism anddiscrimination, but in terms of
(07:57):
how I acted in the world,everyone, you know, regardless
of their ethnicity andbackground, my heart and soul,
they were part of my community,part of my family. And I think
in a ways that made me open toloving the people that I've
loved in my life.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (08:16):
Okay. Well, first of all, I wanna just,
like, acknowledge what you saidabout with your mom because
that's just, like, very sad andthose are such formative years.
That's you said 3rd grade untilyou were 14 Yeah. Which is,
like, for a young woman, for ayoung girl, those are really
formative years. To tell you thehonest truth,
Jewell Parker Rhodes (08:35):
I think I went into super survival mode
that I was very much lonely. AndI was also dealing with I'd
always felt that the divorce orthe separation or whatever went
wrong was somehow my fault.Mhmm. My mother was verbally as
well as physically abusive.There were times when she would
be gone and there wasn't enoughfood to eat.
(08:57):
Times when the electricity wouldbe turned off, and I'd have my
little flashlight underneath thebed trying to read my book. So
what I did is I I read, read,read, read, read, and then I
also ate a lot of bread. I wasknown as a bread freak. So
croissants, baguettes. You know?
I love bread, but I was sort ofalone. And I think that one of
(09:21):
the things I love my sisterdearly, but her experience, she
remembered a mama. And so shewas going back to remembering
and being with mama. Andthroughout their lifetimes, they
spent a lot of time together.Mama would move somewhere, and
then my sister would move there.
And my take was if she was onone side of the country, I was
(09:44):
always on the other side of thecountry. So one of us was
attaching in a way, and I wasthe one that was detaching.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (09:53):
Mhmm. That sounds really hard to see that
alternate reality with yoursister. You know? But how
incredible that your grandmothercould be there for you like
that.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (10:01):
But she took basically became the
mother, the head of thehousehold for her 2 children who
were single parents.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (10:07):
Mhmm.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (10:07):
And if she had not made that sacrifice, it
would have been terrible. Mygrandmother was taking care of
another generation of teenpregnancies. So she took care of
this ongoing sort of pattern ofour family. And she died
surrounded again by some littlekids that she was giving her
love and her best to. So it's,like, amazing.
(10:30):
And especially when I thinkabout how I had talked to
grandma because I was atCarnegie Mellon, and she would
bring me care packages because Ididn't have very much money at
all. And so she would, like, getdressed up like she was going to
church. She had this fake furcoat and fake fur hat because
she was coming to theuniversity. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (10:49):
And Carnegie Mellon, if you've been
to Pittsburgh, it's like it isits own Yes. You know? It it
feels separated. You know? Imean, it is like and you're
like, literally, you have to goup the hill to walk to the you
know?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (10:58):
That's it. Yes. And, actually, the thing
that's interesting is I'm now amember of the board of trustees
of Carnegie Mellon, whichAmazing. Wow. That.
Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (11:06):
Probably your grandmother. But yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (11:08):
Maybe she would bring me the canned goods
so I wouldn't starve. You know?But grandma was part minister's
wife, part hoodoo lady, And soshe taught me a lot about
spirituality. But I got to talkto her and say, you know,
grandma, I'm gonna writestories, like, for real. I'm
gonna try professionally that Ihad switched my major from drama
(11:30):
to English.
And she was just cacklingbecause by then, you know, I
wanted to write about, you know,the ancestors and Marie Laveau.
I was uncovering my AfricanAmerican history. So I I got to
tell her that. And then a weeklater, when she was walking in
Schenley Park with some otherlittle cousins of mine, I forget
which degree, she either had aheart attack or a stroke. And
(11:53):
there were 2 hospitals, 1Allegheny General, which
probably had all the medicalequipment that she needed in the
ER, and then a Catholichospital, which my grandmother
said take me there because itwas the first hospital to admit
black doctors and allow them topractice there.
And I was told they had to takeher in the elevator, and she
(12:14):
died on her way up for theelevator. Now how much exactly
this is all truth, I have noidea, but that's part of the
mythos of what I was told. But Igot to tell her that I was gonna
tell stories. And given that shewas an oral storyteller and she
told me tons of stories, I thinkshe recognized there was this
connection then between us, thatshe was passing storytelling to
(12:38):
me. And I was using storytellingto discover me as well as deepen
my empathy and understanding ofother people and of the world
that I lived in.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (12:50):
That's so sad about your grandma too,
though. God. Oh, I know. Yeah. Ijust hate like, you just those
stories when you're, like, oh,if you just had the right kid,
it's just, like, the worst.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (12:59):
Why? I encourage people to read porch
stories because I was writingporch stories, which is about
the things grandma would say tome. I remember, you know, she'd
say, Jewel child, wear cleanunderwear. All of these. And she
was telling me to respectmyself.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (13:16):
So it happened like that moment
happened for you. I feel likesome moms are like, where the
Jewell Parker Rhodes (13:21):
yeah. Well, it my underwear was clean,
but it had holes in it. So Iknew she was gonna be happy. You
know? Or things like her idea ofkarma was do good, and it'll fly
right back to you.
So all these things that she hadshared with me that became so
important to my life and signsand mysteries and dreams. And
she did teach me a spell abouthow to call the dead. Believe it
(13:44):
or not, yes, she did.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (13:46):
Do you use it? Have you ever tried using
it?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (13:48):
No. No. I've never used it. And whether
you believe it or not, Iactually went to interview
Eartha Kitt because Eartha Kitthad said that she wanted to
play. And she spoke back to methe same spell.
So I think it must have comefrom grandmother's southern
Georgia roots or the, you know,the folk culture that there must
(14:09):
have been ways to accessspirituality, which makes sense
for why I would write my firstadult novel, my first novel ever
about the African diaspora andspirituality because I was
trying to put all these piecestogether. And Africans did
believe that I still believethat the world is alive, that
animate and inanimate, you know,have a essence in spiritual
(14:33):
life. And so given that, itmakes sense that grandma would
teach me that the line betweenthe living and the dead is very
thin, that they are stillaccessible to you even though
they're dead. And then later,what happens? I end up creating
ghost boys.
And I told my editor, I think Ican write this book if I use
ghosts. And a year after I wrotethe book, she said, when you
(14:57):
told me that, I I thought youhad, like, kinda lost it.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (15:03):
You're like, I said police brutality.
You know? It's like I said,like, my you know, these things.
I didn't like, oh, yeah. Ghost.
That's no wrong genre. That'swhat she's probably thinking.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (15:13):
Yeah. That's yeah. Ghost. Yeah.
Exactly.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (15:16):
It definitely worked. You know? I
mean, in a sense, you ended upgiving a voice to the dead in
that book after all. You know?Okay.
Jewel, did you grow up in, like,a book rich environment? Because
I have read that you werereferred to as the little
professor by your family andfriends, and I wanna know where
that love of books came fromand, you know, what were some of
(15:39):
the books that you enjoyed. Butfirst, where did that love of
books come from?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (15:43):
Primarily, my teachers and librarians that
they were, like, just feedingme. And that's why to this very
day, it's like, I love to sendbooks to librarians and
teachers. And, actually, I writefor librarians and teachers
because of the way theyconnected my soul to books. I
know that they do that every dayin their in their work. You
(16:03):
know?
Jordan Lloyd bookey (16:04):
Can you say more about that? You said you
write for them. Like, do youthink of them as one of your as
your audience in a way?
Jewell Parker Rhodes: Absolutely. Absolutely. When I (16:09):
undefined
grew up, we were 4. Okay?Several of my adults in my
family were either dyslexic orilliterate.
I actually don't know which. Andthe other videos was working
hard in order to put food on thetable. So I used to collect pop
bottles, and I would getnickels. And then I would buy
(16:29):
comic books. So that was prettymuch what I could afford.
And my favorite books from mychildhood were the comic books,
and particularly the illustratedclassics. So I remember reading
the prince and the pulper. Iremember reading about king
Arthur, and I remember readingabout prince Valiant, that those
stories enthralled me. And infact, when my husband was wooing
(16:52):
me when I was, like, maybe 26,27, we were outside of Dunkin'
Donuts eating donuts in the car.And he said, what do you wanna
be when you grow up?
And literally, without amoment's hesitation, I said
valiant. I wanna be valiant. Andit connected to me how Prince
Valiant and remember thecartoons in the newspaper? That
(17:12):
that valiant that that's, youknow, that that's what I wanted
to be and that's what I've triedto be. You you should, you know,
look up the meaning and meaningof that word.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:21):
Hey, Jordan here. Okay. So I looked it up,
and the definition of valiant ispossessing or showing courage or
determination. And from myperspective, it's safe to say
that Jewel has achieved hergoal.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (17:32):
But in schools, the teachers kept
giving me books. They were allby white authors, all about
white stories, but I lovedlearning about Heidi. I love
learning about the little women.I loved I loved the stories
because it taught me about ouruniversal humanity. They say the
people could fly, say that longago in Africa, some of the
(17:57):
people knew magic, and theywould walk up on the air like
climbing up on a gate.
And they flew like blackbirdsover the fields, black shiny
wings flapping against the blueup there. Then many of the
people were captured forslavery. The ones that could
fly, shed their wings, theycouldn't take their wings across
(18:21):
the water on the slave ships.Too crowded, don't you know? The
folks were full of misery then,got sick with the up and down of
the sea, so they forgot aboutflying when they could no longer
breathe the scent of sweetAfrica.
Go as you know how to go. Heraised his arms, holding them
(18:46):
out to her. And more magic wordssaid so quickly. They sounded
like whispers in sighs. Thewoman lifted one foot on the
air, then the other.
She flew clumsily at first witha child now held tightly in her
(19:06):
arms. Then she felt the magic,the African mystery. Some say
she rose just as free as a bird,as light as a feather.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (19:25):
The passage Jewel just read is from The
People Could Fly by VirginiaHamilton, which, by the way, if
you recall, is the same bookfrom which Dhonielle Clayton
read in her episode and has beenreferenced by so many of the
authors on this show as afoundational book in their
lives. If you're unfamiliar, ThePeople Could Fly is a
groundbreaking collection ofblack folktales that preserves
(19:46):
and reimagine stories passeddown through generations. This
particular excerpt captures thepain of enslavement, but also
the resilience and magic of apeople who refuse to be defined
by it. For Jewel, the peoplecould fly is more than just the
stories within. It's also aboutthe way those stories are told,
the authenticity in the voice.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (20:09):
One of the things that's very important to
me, just as Toni Morrison andAlice Walker, when, you know, I
was a young woman and they werecoming onto the the horizon and
making their mark in literature,everyone seemed to recognize
there was something differentabout their writing, that they
were writing from a culturaltradition that was not the
(20:31):
standard western tradition ofstorytelling. The people could
fly, for me, though it's a, youknow, a mythic folktale, it was
still a story, yes, meant foradults, but primarily meant for
youth that you tell folk taleslike Ace of Spables, etcetera,
you know, to to children. And ifyou heard me reading it, you
(20:54):
could hear a rhythm. You couldhear, to me, my grandma on the
porch. You know, she would saysome say, some say, you know,
she would have this oralstorytelling tradition that, you
know, is passed down through thegenerations.
And reading Hamilton, I heardit. And then also the themes of
(21:17):
the African mystery, thespirituality, the ancestry, the
idea that your parents don'tnecessarily have to be your
parents, but simply be an elderthat helps raise you and helps,
you know, support you and yourrespect for them.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (21:32):
I wanted to ask you about, like, just in
thinking about, like, thiscultural this storytelling and
the way that you really embed,like, a a tradition in your
writing versus just the presenceof diverse characters and how
you view, I guess, maybe from amore academic or writerly lens,
that difference in your writingand how you approach making sure
(21:55):
that that, like, authenticity isreally present?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (21:59):
Well, first off, I really wanna thank
you for saying that so well,because that was you described
exactly what it is that I'mtrying to do. And I think
sometimes folks don't get it.You know? Like in an African
American tradition and othercultures too, the story begins
in the middle, not beginning,middle, and end. So ghost boys,
(22:20):
of course, it makes sense that Ithe kid is dead.
So they can get a chance that asas a ghost, you see the arc of,
you know, not him as the victim,but what was lost, you know, in
his life, and it's it'sdifferent. Also, in terms of the
orality that there are passagesfrom all my books that I could
still recite to you todaybecause I go back and I get back
(22:42):
into the rhythm, which voicerhythm works for which
character, and it has becomepart of my soul, how do they
speak it? How do they tell itthe way that my grandmother
would have told the story, youknow. And there's also the sense
of fragmented sentences, thatfragmented thoughts, and I'm
very dialogue heavy, which a lotof writers stay away from
(23:03):
because they're not comfortablewith it. And I think because I'm
always talking about first pointof view, because that's what
most oral storytelling is about.
Well, I or one, you know, theyYeah, he said. Yeah, but there's
some 3rd person with a 6 stilllike I because it's not just
about the story. It's about theperson telling the story. That's
right. So even he says we it'sstill the I gotta tell you Joe,
(23:27):
you know, it's like, so thatthat thing, and then, you know,
moving on to that there's a lotof dialogue and also
storytelling within thestorytelling.
All of that is quiteintentional. But I will tell you
one thing that I have had tofight against in publishing my
entire life is that once yourbook might be edited or actually
(23:47):
during the editing, butespecially during copy editing,
people will change my sentences.Or you'll say that's not
correct. That's not standardEnglish. I know it's not
standard English.
I know what standard English is,but this is not the way that
these characters speak. And lotsof times, I had manuscripts
happen to come back that wouldjust have, you know, the red all
(24:07):
over them. And one of the thingsthat I finally have been able to
do, and I I love little brownfor this and Alvina Ling for
understanding me. 1, they tellthe copy editors don't mess with
her rhythm. The idea that peoplewould edit me without even maybe
perhaps always understanding howthe rhythm that's more important
(24:29):
than whether it's a correctstandard English.
So that's why I have a lot offragments sometimes in breaking
breaking the rules and thatsense of kind of a soft dialect,
not a stereotypical dialect, buta saw they say, you know, I was
born with a call. That's adefinitely African American
rhythmic sentence, you know?Right. So now, you know, they
(24:51):
just say, leave her words alone.And pretty much they do.
And I appreciate, but it's takenme maybe 35 years of writing to
get to that point where I nowhave the stature that people
understand that, no, she's alittle bit different. You know?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:10):
For Jewel, writing for adults wasn't the
final summit. It was the basecamp where she sharpened her
tools and honed her creativemuscles for what she considers
the most challenging literarypeak, writing for children.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (25:23):
I spent 30 years writing for adults,
practicing my craft in order tobecome good enough to write for
children. And I also have to getthe call. So when I got the call
of 9th board and Lamisha's voicecame inside my head, you know,
it was kind of like it waswondrous. You know? But in terms
(25:47):
of writing it, I wanted to writeit as grandmother spoke story,
as Virginia Hamilton spokestory, as Toni Morrison spoke
story for adults.
So very consciously, I'm tryingto bring that into my youth
literature. I think that my lifebecame fulfilled when I got to
(26:10):
write my first children's story.It was just absolutely
astonishing. I had gone to bedbecause, you know, the hurricane
was coming to New Orleans. Iworried about people.
And when I woke up, the firstpage and a half of that book
just came out of me whereLanisha says, they say, I was
born with a caul, a skin nettingcovering my face like a glove,
(26:34):
and it goes on. You know? And itwas like, woah. And all of a
sudden, everything cametogether, and I was becoming who
I knew I wanted to be from allthe 40 you know, being childhood
and 30 years writing, 40 yearsbefore was coming into being
when I became a youth author.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (26:56):
There's so much to unpack here. So
definitely around, like,cultural storytelling and how
that shows up in children'sliterature because I think it
sounds what you're describing ishaving experienced it so deeply
through these other authors,adult authors, and then seeing
it through Virginia Hamilton,like, having that realization
that that could be that that is,like, what you wanna do, but
(27:19):
then just working for all theseyears because I I'm gathering
that you read it, like, in thebeginning of your writing
career.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (27:26):
Yes. But
Jordan Lloyd bookey (27:26):
then for all these years to be writing
for adults. But I just thinkthat that centering of wanting
to, like, bring your ownchildhood and then this
experience you have writing forall these years and, like, bring
those together for a generationis really remarkable.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (27:44):
And also to make sure that no child grows
up without seeing a sort ofmultiethnic world, the mixed
blood stew, or to not seethemselves mirrored or other you
know, the connections betweenthe Vietnamese spirituality and
African American spirituality orDia de los Muertos and African
American. I'm always doing that.But I think I'm still writing
(28:07):
the same things I wrote aboutfor adults. I've always been
writing about social, racial,gender, religious justice Yeah.
Environmental justice, and adultnovels get pretty complex.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:21):
As Jewel sees it, holding on to that
complexity is the secret towriting well for kids so long as
she can find the words to makeit simply complex.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (28:31):
So what I've done, I think, is taken all
that complexity, and the truthis not to simplify or be
paternalistic or underwrite, butkeep all the complexity. And the
trick then is finding thelanguage that a middle grader
can understand and finding thearc so that a middle grader
(28:53):
won't be devastated by thetragedy, but can move on to that
arc of affirmation and thatsense of agency. But I can go on
and talk say about Will's racefor home, my latest youth novel
about the Oklahoma land rush.And I was never taught that
black people participated in theOklahoma land rush. It was just
(29:13):
white people who went.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (29:14):
From the movies, the black and white
movies.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (29:16):
Yeah. And it turns out that the second
novel I wrote after VoodooDreams was Magic City, which was
about the Tulsa race riot, how atown in Tulsa was bombed from
the air. And the 100thanniversary was 2 years ago, and
they're still uncovering a fewof the bodies. And so I knew
about that experience. And thenI found evidence that in all of
(29:40):
Oklahoma, because it's still aterritory, that there was a
movement of all the newlyemancipated blocks, come to
Oklahoma.
We're gonna set up a freecountry. And there were, like,
50 black towns in Oklahoma.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (29:54):
Wow.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (29:55):
And that some of the people who were the
land rush entrepreneurs, like mykid, Will, in my novel, could
have grown up to build a TulsaDeep Greenwood community Yeah.
But then 40 years later would bebombed from the air. Mhmm. So
that whole idea of the theracial whiplash happening over
(30:15):
and over across the generations.The sense of how far would you
go to find a home for people whofinally as ex slaves built a
home only to see it bombed.
What about the ones who are justtrying to make it across
Confederate States, trying tobuild and find home and find
freedom? And then you get theissues of literacy. So and this
(30:38):
is an issue, say, that FrederickDouglass also dealt with. You
know? That, yes, he becameliterate.
More power to him because blackswere forbidden to read and write
because it was believed that itwould spoil them as slaves. But
what he learned how to read andwrite from a western text novel
when it brings up literacy, it'sreally about a black boy who's
(30:59):
been taught by his mother whoremarkably has learned how to
read and gives it to him throughtheir lore of the bible into the
African American storytelling.And that just as reading was
critical to Frederick Douglass'ssuccess. You know, that reading,
feed me, he says. Reading freesand saves will at the critical
(31:22):
point when white bandits try tosteal his land.
So when I'm writing, I think ofall those layers, layers,
layers, layers, layers, layers,layers.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (31:31):
There's definitely a lot of depth to
your work.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (31:33):
I'm trying to write classics. Whether the
world judges my works as aclassic piece of literature,
there's so much matter. I hopeone day it'll happen, but I'll
be dead. But a classics in thesense that when I think of, you
know, Charlotte's Web or thesecret gardens or books that
really just ripped open my soul,you know, roll the thunder, hear
(31:58):
my cry, you know, the yearly,you know Yeah. Across cultures
that ripped out my soul and justmade me more alive.
That's what young peopledeserve.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (32:10):
Yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (32:10):
And so I'm trying to write the classic that
when they go back to read it asadults with their children,
they'll go, oh, I didn't noticethat. Or as some children do,
they'll reread it again becausethey know that there's more
there, that they're interestedenough to say, what else did I
(32:30):
miss?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (32:32):
For Jewel, the goal isn't just to write
books that are memorable. It'sto create stories rich with
substance, crafted to beanalyzed and taught to kids.
That was inspired by her ownreading experience with her kid.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (32:44):
I started buying books for my kids before
they were born, and I would justgo into the, you know, the
bookstore because it was thelibrary's teachers and
librarians and the librarypublic librarians are wonderful,
but to own a book. Oh my god. SoI used to just have stacks of
books that my kids got. We justgo in and just buy 100 of
(33:05):
dollars worth of books. But whenmy daughter went to 5th grade,
she had the won an elite bookwritten by a person of color in
her entire academic career as kthrough 12.
And that was Mildred Taylor'sRoll of Thunder, Hear My Cry.
Great, great book.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (33:22):
That was it? Even for your daughter,
really?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (33:24):
Yes. They're in their thirties. When
my son came along, all he readwas Roll of Thunder, Hear My
Cry. And when I was comingalong, I didn't read anybody in
school. It was a black author.
So I wanted my goal was to writebooks for youth that would live
(33:46):
forever in a classroom, thatwould be amplified by a teacher,
amplified by a librarian,amplified by parents. So I'm
always writing to 2 audiences.So I consciously am writing for
the legacy of having my books bein schools and school libraries.
(34:07):
And there was a moment when Ihad an opportunity to change
publishers. And my VictoriaStapleton, who is the school and
library marketing lady at LittleBrown, but she understood.
No. I don't wanna just writebooks and quote sell them. I
want them to be in a school andhave a teacher teach them.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (34:29):
Yeah. I don't think I've ever spoken
with another author whocommunicated it in that way. I
mean, perhaps they are alsothinking about that, but I
really like that. And I think itmakes sense, especially for you
as someone who both went througha school system and experienced
that. And then as I understandit, we're, like, instrumental in
also helping to bring, like,some of these disciplines into
academia around, like, AfricanAmerican studies and so on.
(34:51):
So it's like you have that, butthen also to raise kids, which
is also by itself, like, a wholeother podcast and how amazing it
is that you, like, broke a cycleand became this, like, very
devoted mom who literally, like,created the things that your
kids can you know, that theirkids will be able to read. You
know? So now I'm, like,rethinking your works now in
(35:12):
that light and how they reallyare very interdisciplinary and
very, you know, like, meant tobe studied in a way. You know?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (35:20):
Well, thank you.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (35:25):
Kids today are exposed to the world's harsh
realities in ways previousgenerations never were through
TV and social media and aconstant stream of images that
make events like war and tragedyimpossible to ignore. Jewel
doesn't shy away from thesetruths in her writing. Instead,
she meets her readers where theyare, showing them that even in
(35:47):
the face of pain, there's a pathto healing and growth and hope.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (35:56):
Little Brown recognized, I could put
you through the ringer, but Ican come out on the other side,
that those children are strongerand better. And very often,
there'll be a moment where thechild teaches the parent, you
know, where Daysha says to herdad, dad, tell me what happened
at the towers. Tell me whyyou're so traumatized. And when
(36:18):
he tells her, he starts to heal.You know?
Or when Jerome says to Sarah inGhost Boys, you gotta talk to
your dad, Sarah. You can't justbe angry at him because he, you
know, he shot me. You know? It'slike, woah. But I think that
that is the gift of how I write,and I think it's connected to
why I've lived this long andsurvived.
(36:41):
That, again, always, eventually,the universe shines down with
love. So through my hard times,which were very bitter, through
the hard times that we gothrough in this world, it
doesn't remain that way. It willget better.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (36:57):
You know, I think your readers get so
attached to your work andprobably because you do give
them so much hope or I I don'tknow, but I suspect you must get
some really wonderful letters ormessages from them.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (37:07):
I'll tell you one letter that really
surprised me. A woman had boughtGhost Boys for her grandson, and
then she had a stroke, and shelost her ability to read. And
she said, I started readinglearning how to read again,
reading Ghost Boys. And shewanted to thank me because it
didn't make her feel dumb. Itdidn't make her feel stupid.
(37:29):
Not only did it bring up amemory that was important to
her, that it had substance thatas an adult reader, she could
access it and begin to learnwith it. Most of my books have a
very easy reading level becauseit's an oral tradition, and that
too is intentional. But I wasreally touched that she took the
time to write me. There was alsoa student named Philip Larkin
(37:50):
from Wisconsin who, though hedidn't tell me, his teacher
wrote me and said that he was,you know, an 8th grader, and
this was the first book he hadfinished. And I said, I'm gonna
dedicate black brother, blackbrother to you.
You know that clearly, sometimeswe say the boys especially don't
read well enough or don't readenough. And we say it's because
(38:11):
they didn't quite like the skillor the ability, and it might be
no. They need to have a bookthat interests them. And so the
fact that my book grabbed souland he finished it to me, I
considered that a highest honor.There are some that also right.
They might have heard that mygrandmother raised me, and they
talk about how their grandmotheris raising them and how it was
(38:32):
important to see the love oftheir real parents in a way
reflected in the stories. Youknow? But one of the things that
I'll call have well, a lot ofthings I have with me always,
and I will when I'm dying andwhen I have all that stuff, and
I wanna pull it in and come andsee. And that actually comes
from Azure Neil Hurst sincetheir eyes are watching God.
(38:52):
When JD is finally dying, shecalls in all her memories to
come and see the life.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (38:58):
Yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (38:59):
I'm gonna cry. The life lived. And for me,
that's that communication withthe children. But I was at an
all black boys school in Bostontalking about how there had been
a need to have a workforce andhow it was easier to stereotype
based on color and how bydemeaning Africans, they were
able to then enslave them andhow horrible and how that was
(39:22):
still existing through thecriminal justice system, the
school to prison pipeline, themurder of young black boys,
etcetera, etcetera, all of thoseconnections over history. Right?
And that was also why I hadEmmett in the book. It's this
historical pattern. And thisyoung kid came out to me, and he
said, you mean this is apattern? And I said, yes. And he
(39:45):
looked at me, and his eyes werewhite.
And he said, I always thought itwas me. So for every child that
thinks something is wrong withthem for why the world acts
cruelly or hatefully towardsthem, my book, Psych and Black
Brother by Brother, is saying,be you even if others can't see
(40:08):
you. The people who don't seeyour beauty, see your glory,
they have something wrong withtheir eyes, their soul. So I'm
really fundamentally trying togive children that self esteem
and let them know you start byloving yourself so that when
somebody is hateful towards you,it doesn't pierce your soul. Let
(40:29):
it go.
Don't be victimized twice over.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (40:33):
Oh my god. You're amazing. Amazing. You're
amazing.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (40:39):
Know about
Jordan Lloyd bookey (40:40):
that. You got me crying right now. Just
thinking about it.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (40:43):
I do feel deeply. And just to be very,
very clear, I do get fearful. Ido get insecure. For several of
my books, I didn't think I couldactually write it. Like, Ghost
Boys, I didn't think I could doit.
Towers Falling, I didn't think Icould do it, and so on and so
forth. And I am at that pointthat having had the honor of
(41:04):
being able to have my books in achild's hands, I do feel
responsibility that I wanna dothe hard stop. Because what have
I been practicing all this timefor? You know? And and I often
have agreements with mypublisher that if this doesn't
work, we won't publish it.
I'll give you the money back.You know? I mean, I have
(41:25):
probably now there's a failurein my horizon. But if there is,
I will not let it go out intothe world. I'm only gonna let go
out into the world my very bestfor the youth because that's
what they they deserve.
And I wanna do the hard stuffbecause do they need another a
novel that sort of, like,doesn't sort of fully engage
(41:46):
them intellectually andspiritually and emotionally?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (41:49):
For Jewel, writing is a profound act of
care, a way to give youngreaders the very best she has to
offer. But it's more thancrafting meaningful stories.
It's about leaving a legacy thatreflects her life, her
struggles, and her unwaveringcommitment to staying open to it
all.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (42:07):
But it is still that sort of raw impetus
in me to remind myself and alsoto tell the world I was here. I
am here. And that's, I think,maybe even really the super core
(42:27):
of why I do what I do and what'simportant to me in living my
life. So the good life when I goon, I tell students I'm gonna
come back as a ghost, especiallyif they don't vote. I guess,
ghost.
That it's like, you know, thatto me, it's like it brings me
more alive, but my life includesall the trauma. It includes the
(42:50):
ups and downs. It includes allthe emotional roller coaster.
And there used to be a time whenI just would try to shut down.
And I remember thinking, I'llbecome a robot.
And I made the conscious choicethat I was gonna try to remain
emotionally open to everythingthat had happened to me, the
good and the bad, because evenwhen I was hurting, that that
(43:12):
was an aspect of my my humanity.So having this chance to talk
and also to write, I think, isthat's what I'm really
expressing. When I finish abook, I say, I'll never write
another book again. But after acouple of months, I have to
write another book again Mhmm.And go through it all over again
(43:35):
and bring all my life's wisdomand understanding and the
discovery of other people'stimes and culture and how they
might have made choices based ontheir, say, gender like Will.
I couldn't imagine doing whatWill did, riding, you know, the
horse midnight to capture land.It's still it's my life's drama.
And, boy, am I so happy. I'mglad of it. But, yeah, it's
(43:59):
exhausting.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (44:00):
Yeah. I think they say that people who
have purpose live longer. Youknow, it's like statistically
proven. And I suspect that thatmight be part of why you seem to
be in very good health and, youknow, outdo it all of you, the
generation before you. You know,you have, like, a really deep
purpose, you know, and you cansense that in this conversation.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (44:22):
You're a sweetie. I do. I just wanted to
just say real quick. I did neverexpect to live this long. And so
now I I am definitely going for90.
If I could get to a 100 or 120
Jordan Lloyd bookey (44:33):
Like, let's just say a 100, you know, for
90.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (44:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's a it's a good
number. You know?
So I'm definitely going to it.And I think of Lin Manuel
Miranda. She's Hamiltoncharacter. I'm running out of
time. So for me, it's sort oflike the opportunity of
sometimes we waste time becausewe think it's endless, but it's
actually also can be a gift thatmy time is shortened.
So what am I gonna do with it?And what what can I accomplish
(44:59):
in this time that is left to me?And I'm I am indeed very, very
excited for it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (45:10):
Jewell's reading challenge, Comic Trips,
celebrates timeless classicsalongside the graphic novels of
today. It's an opportunity toexplore how this unique art form
has grown and to challenge themisconception that graphic
novels aren't real books.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (45:26):
I would recommend The Prince and the
pauper, you know, King Arthur,the round table, Prince Valiant,
and I think it'd be a wonderfulexercise to read some of the
early graphic novels or read,you know, exercise to read some
of the early graphic novels orread you know, if you want
Veronica, you know, and Jughead,you know, and compare them to
this new graphic novel explosionthat we're having. And our
(45:47):
tendency for some of us to say,oh, those aren't real books. I
think, no. It's just a differentkind of art form.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (45:54):
You can find Jewell's reading challenge
and all past reading challengesat the reading culture pod dot
com. And today's beanstalkfeatured librarian is once again
Kat Gatcombe, my colleague atbeanstalk, and the former youth
services supervisor at NashuaPublic Library in New Hampshire.
This week, Kat shares 2 keylessons she wishes that she knew
(46:17):
earlier as a librarian.
Kat Gatcomb (46:19):
I think when it comes to programming, they're so
important to look to yourcommunity. And I think one thing
that I had to learn over timewas that it's okay to not know
how to do something or not bethe person to facilitate
something. It's actuallyprobably better to not. So if
there is an interest insomething in the community is
(46:40):
asking for it or there's a needfor it, Finding someone else to
facilitate can be so much moreimpactful than stumbling through
something that you're notqualified to instruct or
passionate about. And I thinkthe other thing that I've seen
with so many librarians is youget so passionate about what
we're doing or so invested inthe work that you forget it is
(47:04):
your job.
And so you have to separateyourself from that and really
setting boundaries and knowing,like, I can go to work. I can be
a really good librarian. I canmake a difference, but I also am
a person. And at the end of theday, I need to go home and,
like, take care of myself. I sawa lot of librarians, including
myself, struggling with that.
(47:25):
So I think it's just a goodreminder that you're more than
just your job.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (47:34):
This has been
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (47:34):
the reading culture, and you've been
listening to my conversationwith Jewel Parker Rhodes. Again,
I'm your host, Jordan LloydBookie, and currently, I'm
reading Colored Television byDanzy Senna and School Trip by
Jerry Craft. If you've enjoyedtoday's episode, please show
some love and give us a 5 starreview. It just takes a second,
and it really, really helps.This episode was produced by Mel
(47:57):
Webb, Jackie Lamport, and LowerStreet Media and script edited
by Josiah Lamberto Egan.
To learn more about how you canhelp grow your community's
reading culture, you can checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com, and remember tosign up for our newsletter at
the reading culture pod dot comforward slash newsletter for
special offers and bonuscontent. Thanks for listening
(48:18):
and keep reading.
For every child that thinks something is
wrong with them, for why theworld acts cruelly or hatefully
towards them, my book Stike andBlack Brother by Brother, is
saying be you even if otherscan't see you. The people who
don't see your beauty, see yourglory, they have something wrong
(00:24):
with their eyes, their soul.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:27):
The world can often feel like a place
where understanding andacceptance are in short supply,
and it often feels like theworld is quick to overlook those
who don't fit neatly into itsnarrow definitions. For young
readers, that confusion andfrustration can feel even
sharper. It's why stories thatreflect them, celebrate them,
(00:47):
and empower them matter sodeeply.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (00:49):
I spent 30 years writing for adults,
practicing my craft in order tobecome good enough to write for
children. My goal was to writebooks for youth that would live
forever in a classroom, thatwould be amplified by a teacher,
amplified by a librarian,amplified by parents.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (01:12):
Jewel has spent decades perfecting her
craft, but her goal goes beyondsimply writing books that endure
the test of time.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (01:19):
I'm really fundamentally trying to give
children that self esteem andlet them know you start by
loving yourself so that whensomebody is hateful towards you,
it doesn't pierce your soul.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (01:32):
Jewel Parker Rhodes is an award
winning author whose work spansadult and children's fiction.
You may know her from 9th Ward,her Coretta Scott King honor
winning debut for young readers,or Ghost Boys, a New York Times
bestseller that continues tospark critical conversations
about racial justice. In all ofher work, Jewel explores the
(01:53):
themes of self acceptance,empowerment, and resilience,
often inspired by her ownchildhood experiences and the
cultural storytelling traditionspassed down from her
grandmother. In this episode,Jewel opens up about her
tumultuous childhood andreflects on her grandmother's
wisdom and on the surprisingtwists and turns of her life.
(02:14):
That includes Jewel's amazementat living this long and what
she'd tell her students if sheever returns as a ghost.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookey,and this is The Reading Culture,
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
(02:35):
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
for motivating students to readmore. Learn more at
beanstack.com and make sure tocheck us out on Instagram at the
reading culture pod andsubscribe to our newsletter for
bonus content at the readingculture pod dot com forward
slash newsletter. Hey,listeners.
(02:59):
Are you looking for a fun, easyway to track your reading and
earn cool rewards? Well, meetBeanstack, the ultimate reading
app used by a community of over15,000 schools, libraries, and
organizations nationwide. Areyou an avid reader? Check with
your local library to see ifthey offer Beanstack for free. A
(03:20):
parent?
Ask your child's teacher if theschool library already uses
Beanstack. And if you are aneducator searching for a fresh
alternative to AcceleratedReader, Beanstack is the perfect
tool to cultivate a thrivingreading culture. Ready to turn
the page? Visit beanstack.com tolearn more.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (03:43):
I wanted to ask about your name, where your
name comes from. I love yourname.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (03:48):
Actually, my mother once told me that she
had a dream that she was gonnahave a little girl and she
should name me Jewel. It's not afamily name or any other
connection. Just, you know, I amthe only Jewel. I did not have a
good relationship with my motherfor lots of my life. My mother
was not in my life.
(04:08):
So the sweetest memory I have isher telling me that she had a
dream to name Rachel.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:15):
Can you say a little bit more about that?
You you were born in Pittsburgh.Is that where your mom did grow
up though, or where your familygrew?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:21):
Yeah. I was born in Pittsburgh. My
family, we were quite poor, andmy mother disappeared when I was
about 8 months old.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:29):
Oh, wow.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:30):
So 5 of us cousins were growing up in this
sort of, like, 3 story tenementin the north side of Pittsburgh,
which is now very muchgentrified.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:39):
Yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:39):
But when I was growing up, there were,
like, vacant lots, rats as bigas cats, all kinds of problems.
My mother came back when I wasin the 3rd grade and there's
some sort of discussion aboutwhere was she. I do have a sense
that she actually might havebeen in prison.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (04:57):
Oh.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (04:57):
But anyway, mama came back. I was
finishing the 3rd grade, and shedecided we should all go to
California. My sister and I, myfather and her. And so I felt
torn from the only mother that Ihad ever known. I felt torn from
my other, quote, sisters andbrothers, you know, my cousins
because we were being raisedtogether.
(05:18):
Of course. And then as soon aswe got to California, my mother,
kicked my father out of thehouse. And I'm living with what
I felt was a stranger. I didn'tknow this lady from, you know,
the man in the moon. Mhmm.
And it was hard. My mom, sheended up having 7 husbands. At
one point, she was very muchinto that. That life was about
(05:41):
an exchange. So it wasn't aboutaffection.
It was about love per se. It wasabout what can I earn? What can
I get from this? Everything wastransactional. And she tried to
teach my sister and I all ofthat.
Wow. It's a lot of, like, classgrabbing. You know? Mhmm. And in
some ways, I very muchunderstand it because she was a
(06:04):
talented, beautiful woman livingin a world that did not make it
possible for her to be educated.
She was also in a world where,given the paternalism and the
patriarchy, beauty was thething, and she very often traded
on her beauty. And she just hadso much scope in her soul, but
not enough room in society thatwould allow her to execute on
(06:27):
that scope. You know? She couldhave been a CEO for heaven's
sakes. So by the time I was 14,my mother had kicked me out of
the house because I had takensome butter for, you know, my
bread.
And it was very clear. Butterwas for the gentlemen callers,
and margarine was for thefamily. And I had to leave, and
I went to live with my fatherand his new wife for a while.
(06:50):
And that was very traumatic too.So by the time I was a year
later, 15 going on 16, I hadearned enough money, worked in
half price bookstores, and Itold my father that I was going
back to Pittsburgh to be withgrandma.
Yeah. So I've been on my own fora very, very long time. And the
(07:12):
person that has been the root,the center, the blessing in my
life is my grandmother whotaught me about love and taught
me that the universe alwayseventually, and says this in my
book, 9th Lord. Alwayseventually shines down with
love. So things may be bad todayor bad in a year from now, but
(07:35):
always eventually, it'll getbetter.
She also taught me that peoplewere people were people. And so
she'd say, Joel Child, you're nobetter than anyone else, and
nobody's better than you. We'reall a mixed blood stew. Though I
knew about racism anddiscrimination, but in terms of
(07:57):
how I acted in the world,everyone, you know, regardless
of their ethnicity andbackground, my heart and soul,
they were part of my community,part of my family. And I think
in a ways that made me open toloving the people that I've
loved in my life.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (08:16):
Okay. Well, first of all, I wanna just,
like, acknowledge what you saidabout with your mom because
that's just, like, very sad andthose are such formative years.
That's you said 3rd grade untilyou were 14 Yeah. Which is,
like, for a young woman, for ayoung girl, those are really
formative years. To tell you thehonest truth,
Jewell Parker Rhodes (08:35):
I think I went into super survival mode
that I was very much lonely. AndI was also dealing with I'd
always felt that the divorce orthe separation or whatever went
wrong was somehow my fault.Mhmm. My mother was verbally as
well as physically abusive.There were times when she would
be gone and there wasn't enoughfood to eat.
(08:57):
Times when the electricity wouldbe turned off, and I'd have my
little flashlight underneath thebed trying to read my book. So
what I did is I I read, read,read, read, read, and then I
also ate a lot of bread. I wasknown as a bread freak. So
croissants, baguettes. You know?
I love bread, but I was sort ofalone. And I think that one of
(09:21):
the things I love my sisterdearly, but her experience, she
remembered a mama. And so shewas going back to remembering
and being with mama. Andthroughout their lifetimes, they
spent a lot of time together.Mama would move somewhere, and
then my sister would move there.
And my take was if she was onone side of the country, I was
(09:44):
always on the other side of thecountry. So one of us was
attaching in a way, and I wasthe one that was detaching.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (09:53):
Mhmm. That sounds really hard to see that
alternate reality with yoursister. You know? But how
incredible that your grandmothercould be there for you like
that.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (10:01):
But she took basically became the
mother, the head of thehousehold for her 2 children who
were single parents.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (10:07):
Mhmm.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (10:07):
And if she had not made that sacrifice, it
would have been terrible. Mygrandmother was taking care of
another generation of teenpregnancies. So she took care of
this ongoing sort of pattern ofour family. And she died
surrounded again by some littlekids that she was giving her
love and her best to. So it's,like, amazing.
(10:30):
And especially when I thinkabout how I had talked to
grandma because I was atCarnegie Mellon, and she would
bring me care packages because Ididn't have very much money at
all. And so she would, like, getdressed up like she was going to
church. She had this fake furcoat and fake fur hat because
she was coming to theuniversity. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (10:49):
And Carnegie Mellon, if you've been
to Pittsburgh, it's like it isits own Yes. You know? It it
feels separated. You know? Imean, it is like and you're
like, literally, you have to goup the hill to walk to the you
know?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (10:58):
That's it. Yes. And, actually, the thing
that's interesting is I'm now amember of the board of trustees
of Carnegie Mellon, whichAmazing. Wow. That.
Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (11:06):
Probably your grandmother. But yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (11:08):
Maybe she would bring me the canned goods
so I wouldn't starve. You know?But grandma was part minister's
wife, part hoodoo lady, And soshe taught me a lot about
spirituality. But I got to talkto her and say, you know,
grandma, I'm gonna writestories, like, for real. I'm
gonna try professionally that Ihad switched my major from drama
(11:30):
to English.
And she was just cacklingbecause by then, you know, I
wanted to write about, you know,the ancestors and Marie Laveau.
I was uncovering my AfricanAmerican history. So I I got to
tell her that. And then a weeklater, when she was walking in
Schenley Park with some otherlittle cousins of mine, I forget
which degree, she either had aheart attack or a stroke. And
(11:53):
there were 2 hospitals, 1Allegheny General, which
probably had all the medicalequipment that she needed in the
ER, and then a Catholichospital, which my grandmother
said take me there because itwas the first hospital to admit
black doctors and allow them topractice there.
And I was told they had to takeher in the elevator, and she
(12:14):
died on her way up for theelevator. Now how much exactly
this is all truth, I have noidea, but that's part of the
mythos of what I was told. But Igot to tell her that I was gonna
tell stories. And given that shewas an oral storyteller and she
told me tons of stories, I thinkshe recognized there was this
connection then between us, thatshe was passing storytelling to
(12:38):
me. And I was using storytellingto discover me as well as deepen
my empathy and understanding ofother people and of the world
that I lived in.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (12:50):
That's so sad about your grandma too,
though. God. Oh, I know. Yeah. Ijust hate like, you just those
stories when you're, like, oh,if you just had the right kid,
it's just, like, the worst.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (12:59):
Why? I encourage people to read porch
stories because I was writingporch stories, which is about
the things grandma would say tome. I remember, you know, she'd
say, Jewel child, wear cleanunderwear. All of these. And she
was telling me to respectmyself.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (13:16):
So it happened like that moment
happened for you. I feel likesome moms are like, where the
Jewell Parker Rhodes (13:21):
yeah. Well, it my underwear was clean,
but it had holes in it. So Iknew she was gonna be happy. You
know? Or things like her idea ofkarma was do good, and it'll fly
right back to you.
So all these things that she hadshared with me that became so
important to my life and signsand mysteries and dreams. And
she did teach me a spell abouthow to call the dead. Believe it
(13:44):
or not, yes, she did.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (13:46):
Do you use it? Have you ever tried using
it?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (13:48):
No. No. I've never used it. And whether
you believe it or not, Iactually went to interview
Eartha Kitt because Eartha Kitthad said that she wanted to
play. And she spoke back to methe same spell.
So I think it must have comefrom grandmother's southern
Georgia roots or the, you know,the folk culture that there must
(14:09):
have been ways to accessspirituality, which makes sense
for why I would write my firstadult novel, my first novel ever
about the African diaspora andspirituality because I was
trying to put all these piecestogether. And Africans did
believe that I still believethat the world is alive, that
animate and inanimate, you know,have a essence in spiritual
(14:33):
life. And so given that, itmakes sense that grandma would
teach me that the line betweenthe living and the dead is very
thin, that they are stillaccessible to you even though
they're dead. And then later,what happens? I end up creating
ghost boys.
And I told my editor, I think Ican write this book if I use
ghosts. And a year after I wrotethe book, she said, when you
(14:57):
told me that, I I thought youhad, like, kinda lost it.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (15:03):
You're like, I said police brutality.
You know? It's like I said,like, my you know, these things.
I didn't like, oh, yeah. Ghost.
That's no wrong genre. That'swhat she's probably thinking.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (15:13):
Yeah. That's yeah. Ghost. Yeah.
Exactly.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (15:16):
It definitely worked. You know? I
mean, in a sense, you ended upgiving a voice to the dead in
that book after all. You know?Okay.
Jewel, did you grow up in, like,a book rich environment? Because
I have read that you werereferred to as the little
professor by your family andfriends, and I wanna know where
that love of books came fromand, you know, what were some of
(15:39):
the books that you enjoyed. Butfirst, where did that love of
books come from?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (15:43):
Primarily, my teachers and librarians that
they were, like, just feedingme. And that's why to this very
day, it's like, I love to sendbooks to librarians and
teachers. And, actually, I writefor librarians and teachers
because of the way theyconnected my soul to books. I
know that they do that every dayin their in their work. You
(16:03):
know?
Jordan Lloyd bookey (16:04):
Can you say more about that? You said you
write for them. Like, do youthink of them as one of your as
your audience in a way?
Jewell Parker Rhodes: Absolutely. Absolutely. When I (16:09):
undefined
grew up, we were 4. Okay?Several of my adults in my
family were either dyslexic orilliterate.
I actually don't know which. Andthe other videos was working
hard in order to put food on thetable. So I used to collect pop
bottles, and I would getnickels. And then I would buy
(16:29):
comic books. So that was prettymuch what I could afford.
And my favorite books from mychildhood were the comic books,
and particularly the illustratedclassics. So I remember reading
the prince and the pulper. Iremember reading about king
Arthur, and I remember readingabout prince Valiant, that those
stories enthralled me. And infact, when my husband was wooing
(16:52):
me when I was, like, maybe 26,27, we were outside of Dunkin'
Donuts eating donuts in the car.And he said, what do you wanna
be when you grow up?
And literally, without amoment's hesitation, I said
valiant. I wanna be valiant. Andit connected to me how Prince
Valiant and remember thecartoons in the newspaper? That
(17:12):
that valiant that that's, youknow, that that's what I wanted
to be and that's what I've triedto be. You you should, you know,
look up the meaning and meaningof that word.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:21):
Hey, Jordan here. Okay. So I looked it up,
and the definition of valiant ispossessing or showing courage or
determination. And from myperspective, it's safe to say
that Jewel has achieved hergoal.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (17:32):
But in schools, the teachers kept
giving me books. They were allby white authors, all about
white stories, but I lovedlearning about Heidi. I love
learning about the little women.I loved I loved the stories
because it taught me about ouruniversal humanity. They say the
people could fly, say that longago in Africa, some of the
(17:57):
people knew magic, and theywould walk up on the air like
climbing up on a gate.
And they flew like blackbirdsover the fields, black shiny
wings flapping against the blueup there. Then many of the
people were captured forslavery. The ones that could
fly, shed their wings, theycouldn't take their wings across
(18:21):
the water on the slave ships.Too crowded, don't you know? The
folks were full of misery then,got sick with the up and down of
the sea, so they forgot aboutflying when they could no longer
breathe the scent of sweetAfrica.
Go as you know how to go. Heraised his arms, holding them
(18:46):
out to her. And more magic wordssaid so quickly. They sounded
like whispers in sighs. Thewoman lifted one foot on the
air, then the other.
She flew clumsily at first witha child now held tightly in her
(19:06):
arms. Then she felt the magic,the African mystery. Some say
she rose just as free as a bird,as light as a feather.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (19:25):
The passage Jewel just read is from The
People Could Fly by VirginiaHamilton, which, by the way, if
you recall, is the same bookfrom which Dhonielle Clayton
read in her episode and has beenreferenced by so many of the
authors on this show as afoundational book in their
lives. If you're unfamiliar, ThePeople Could Fly is a
groundbreaking collection ofblack folktales that preserves
(19:46):
and reimagine stories passeddown through generations. This
particular excerpt captures thepain of enslavement, but also
the resilience and magic of apeople who refuse to be defined
by it. For Jewel, the peoplecould fly is more than just the
stories within. It's also aboutthe way those stories are told,
the authenticity in the voice.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (20:09):
One of the things that's very important to
me, just as Toni Morrison andAlice Walker, when, you know, I
was a young woman and they werecoming onto the the horizon and
making their mark in literature,everyone seemed to recognize
there was something differentabout their writing, that they
were writing from a culturaltradition that was not the
(20:31):
standard western tradition ofstorytelling. The people could
fly, for me, though it's a, youknow, a mythic folktale, it was
still a story, yes, meant foradults, but primarily meant for
youth that you tell folk taleslike Ace of Spables, etcetera,
you know, to to children. And ifyou heard me reading it, you
(20:54):
could hear a rhythm. You couldhear, to me, my grandma on the
porch. You know, she would saysome say, some say, you know,
she would have this oralstorytelling tradition that, you
know, is passed down through thegenerations.
And reading Hamilton, I heardit. And then also the themes of
(21:17):
the African mystery, thespirituality, the ancestry, the
idea that your parents don'tnecessarily have to be your
parents, but simply be an elderthat helps raise you and helps,
you know, support you and yourrespect for them.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (21:32):
I wanted to ask you about, like, just in
thinking about, like, thiscultural this storytelling and
the way that you really embed,like, a a tradition in your
writing versus just the presenceof diverse characters and how
you view, I guess, maybe from amore academic or writerly lens,
that difference in your writingand how you approach making sure
(21:55):
that that, like, authenticity isreally present?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (21:59):
Well, first off, I really wanna thank
you for saying that so well,because that was you described
exactly what it is that I'mtrying to do. And I think
sometimes folks don't get it.You know? Like in an African
American tradition and othercultures too, the story begins
in the middle, not beginning,middle, and end. So ghost boys,
(22:20):
of course, it makes sense that Ithe kid is dead.
So they can get a chance that asas a ghost, you see the arc of,
you know, not him as the victim,but what was lost, you know, in
his life, and it's it'sdifferent. Also, in terms of the
orality that there are passagesfrom all my books that I could
still recite to you todaybecause I go back and I get back
(22:42):
into the rhythm, which voicerhythm works for which
character, and it has becomepart of my soul, how do they
speak it? How do they tell itthe way that my grandmother
would have told the story, youknow. And there's also the sense
of fragmented sentences, thatfragmented thoughts, and I'm
very dialogue heavy, which a lotof writers stay away from
(23:03):
because they're not comfortablewith it. And I think because I'm
always talking about first pointof view, because that's what
most oral storytelling is about.
Well, I or one, you know, theyYeah, he said. Yeah, but there's
some 3rd person with a 6 stilllike I because it's not just
about the story. It's about theperson telling the story. That's
right. So even he says we it'sstill the I gotta tell you Joe,
(23:27):
you know, it's like, so thatthat thing, and then, you know,
moving on to that there's a lotof dialogue and also
storytelling within thestorytelling.
All of that is quiteintentional. But I will tell you
one thing that I have had tofight against in publishing my
entire life is that once yourbook might be edited or actually
(23:47):
during the editing, butespecially during copy editing,
people will change my sentences.Or you'll say that's not
correct. That's not standardEnglish. I know it's not
standard English.
I know what standard English is,but this is not the way that
these characters speak. And lotsof times, I had manuscripts
happen to come back that wouldjust have, you know, the red all
(24:07):
over them. And one of the thingsthat I finally have been able to
do, and I I love little brownfor this and Alvina Ling for
understanding me. 1, they tellthe copy editors don't mess with
her rhythm. The idea that peoplewould edit me without even maybe
perhaps always understanding howthe rhythm that's more important
(24:29):
than whether it's a correctstandard English.
So that's why I have a lot offragments sometimes in breaking
breaking the rules and thatsense of kind of a soft dialect,
not a stereotypical dialect, buta saw they say, you know, I was
born with a call. That's adefinitely African American
rhythmic sentence, you know?Right. So now, you know, they
(24:51):
just say, leave her words alone.And pretty much they do.
And I appreciate, but it's takenme maybe 35 years of writing to
get to that point where I nowhave the stature that people
understand that, no, she's alittle bit different. You know?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:10):
For Jewel, writing for adults wasn't the
final summit. It was the basecamp where she sharpened her
tools and honed her creativemuscles for what she considers
the most challenging literarypeak, writing for children.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (25:23):
I spent 30 years writing for adults,
practicing my craft in order tobecome good enough to write for
children. And I also have to getthe call. So when I got the call
of 9th board and Lamisha's voicecame inside my head, you know,
it was kind of like it waswondrous. You know? But in terms
(25:47):
of writing it, I wanted to writeit as grandmother spoke story,
as Virginia Hamilton spokestory, as Toni Morrison spoke
story for adults.
So very consciously, I'm tryingto bring that into my youth
literature. I think that my lifebecame fulfilled when I got to
(26:10):
write my first children's story.It was just absolutely
astonishing. I had gone to bedbecause, you know, the hurricane
was coming to New Orleans. Iworried about people.
And when I woke up, the firstpage and a half of that book
just came out of me whereLanisha says, they say, I was
born with a caul, a skin nettingcovering my face like a glove,
(26:34):
and it goes on. You know? And itwas like, woah. And all of a
sudden, everything cametogether, and I was becoming who
I knew I wanted to be from allthe 40 you know, being childhood
and 30 years writing, 40 yearsbefore was coming into being
when I became a youth author.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (26:56):
There's so much to unpack here. So
definitely around, like,cultural storytelling and how
that shows up in children'sliterature because I think it
sounds what you're describing ishaving experienced it so deeply
through these other authors,adult authors, and then seeing
it through Virginia Hamilton,like, having that realization
that that could be that that is,like, what you wanna do, but
(27:19):
then just working for all theseyears because I I'm gathering
that you read it, like, in thebeginning of your writing
career.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (27:26):
Yes. But
Jordan Lloyd bookey (27:26):
then for all these years to be writing
for adults. But I just thinkthat that centering of wanting
to, like, bring your ownchildhood and then this
experience you have writing forall these years and, like, bring
those together for a generationis really remarkable.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (27:44):
And also to make sure that no child grows
up without seeing a sort ofmultiethnic world, the mixed
blood stew, or to not seethemselves mirrored or other you
know, the connections betweenthe Vietnamese spirituality and
African American spirituality orDia de los Muertos and African
American. I'm always doing that.But I think I'm still writing
(28:07):
the same things I wrote aboutfor adults. I've always been
writing about social, racial,gender, religious justice Yeah.
Environmental justice, and adultnovels get pretty complex.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:21):
As Jewel sees it, holding on to that
complexity is the secret towriting well for kids so long as
she can find the words to makeit simply complex.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (28:31):
So what I've done, I think, is taken all
that complexity, and the truthis not to simplify or be
paternalistic or underwrite, butkeep all the complexity. And the
trick then is finding thelanguage that a middle grader
can understand and finding thearc so that a middle grader
(28:53):
won't be devastated by thetragedy, but can move on to that
arc of affirmation and thatsense of agency. But I can go on
and talk say about Will's racefor home, my latest youth novel
about the Oklahoma land rush.And I was never taught that
black people participated in theOklahoma land rush. It was just
(29:13):
white people who went.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (29:14):
From the movies, the black and white
movies.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (29:16):
Yeah. And it turns out that the second
novel I wrote after VoodooDreams was Magic City, which was
about the Tulsa race riot, how atown in Tulsa was bombed from
the air. And the 100thanniversary was 2 years ago, and
they're still uncovering a fewof the bodies. And so I knew
about that experience. And thenI found evidence that in all of
(29:40):
Oklahoma, because it's still aterritory, that there was a
movement of all the newlyemancipated blocks, come to
Oklahoma.
We're gonna set up a freecountry. And there were, like,
50 black towns in Oklahoma.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (29:54):
Wow.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (29:55):
And that some of the people who were the
land rush entrepreneurs, like mykid, Will, in my novel, could
have grown up to build a TulsaDeep Greenwood community Yeah.
But then 40 years later would bebombed from the air. Mhmm. So
that whole idea of the theracial whiplash happening over
(30:15):
and over across the generations.The sense of how far would you
go to find a home for people whofinally as ex slaves built a
home only to see it bombed.
What about the ones who are justtrying to make it across
Confederate States, trying tobuild and find home and find
freedom? And then you get theissues of literacy. So and this
(30:38):
is an issue, say, that FrederickDouglass also dealt with. You
know? That, yes, he becameliterate.
More power to him because blackswere forbidden to read and write
because it was believed that itwould spoil them as slaves. But
what he learned how to read andwrite from a western text novel
when it brings up literacy, it'sreally about a black boy who's
(30:59):
been taught by his mother whoremarkably has learned how to
read and gives it to him throughtheir lore of the bible into the
African American storytelling.And that just as reading was
critical to Frederick Douglass'ssuccess. You know, that reading,
feed me, he says. Reading freesand saves will at the critical
(31:22):
point when white bandits try tosteal his land.
So when I'm writing, I think ofall those layers, layers,
layers, layers, layers, layers,layers.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (31:31):
There's definitely a lot of depth to
your work.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (31:33):
I'm trying to write classics. Whether the
world judges my works as aclassic piece of literature,
there's so much matter. I hopeone day it'll happen, but I'll
be dead. But a classics in thesense that when I think of, you
know, Charlotte's Web or thesecret gardens or books that
really just ripped open my soul,you know, roll the thunder, hear
(31:58):
my cry, you know, the yearly,you know Yeah. Across cultures
that ripped out my soul and justmade me more alive.
That's what young peopledeserve.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (32:10):
Yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (32:10):
And so I'm trying to write the classic that
when they go back to read it asadults with their children,
they'll go, oh, I didn't noticethat. Or as some children do,
they'll reread it again becausethey know that there's more
there, that they're interestedenough to say, what else did I
(32:30):
miss?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (32:32):
For Jewel, the goal isn't just to write
books that are memorable. It'sto create stories rich with
substance, crafted to beanalyzed and taught to kids.
That was inspired by her ownreading experience with her kid.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (32:44):
I started buying books for my kids before
they were born, and I would justgo into the, you know, the
bookstore because it was thelibrary's teachers and
librarians and the librarypublic librarians are wonderful,
but to own a book. Oh my god. SoI used to just have stacks of
books that my kids got. We justgo in and just buy 100 of
(33:05):
dollars worth of books. But whenmy daughter went to 5th grade,
she had the won an elite bookwritten by a person of color in
her entire academic career as kthrough 12.
And that was Mildred Taylor'sRoll of Thunder, Hear My Cry.
Great, great book.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (33:22):
That was it? Even for your daughter,
really?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (33:24):
Yes. They're in their thirties. When
my son came along, all he readwas Roll of Thunder, Hear My
Cry. And when I was comingalong, I didn't read anybody in
school. It was a black author.
So I wanted my goal was to writebooks for youth that would live
(33:46):
forever in a classroom, thatwould be amplified by a teacher,
amplified by a librarian,amplified by parents. So I'm
always writing to 2 audiences.So I consciously am writing for
the legacy of having my books bein schools and school libraries.
(34:07):
And there was a moment when Ihad an opportunity to change
publishers. And my VictoriaStapleton, who is the school and
library marketing lady at LittleBrown, but she understood.
No. I don't wanna just writebooks and quote sell them. I
want them to be in a school andhave a teacher teach them.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (34:29):
Yeah. I don't think I've ever spoken
with another author whocommunicated it in that way. I
mean, perhaps they are alsothinking about that, but I
really like that. And I think itmakes sense, especially for you
as someone who both went througha school system and experienced
that. And then as I understandit, we're, like, instrumental in
also helping to bring, like,some of these disciplines into
academia around, like, AfricanAmerican studies and so on.
(34:51):
So it's like you have that, butthen also to raise kids, which
is also by itself, like, a wholeother podcast and how amazing it
is that you, like, broke a cycleand became this, like, very
devoted mom who literally, like,created the things that your
kids can you know, that theirkids will be able to read. You
know? So now I'm, like,rethinking your works now in
(35:12):
that light and how they reallyare very interdisciplinary and
very, you know, like, meant tobe studied in a way. You know?
Jewell Parker Rhodes (35:20):
Well, thank you.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (35:25):
Kids today are exposed to the world's harsh
realities in ways previousgenerations never were through
TV and social media and aconstant stream of images that
make events like war and tragedyimpossible to ignore. Jewel
doesn't shy away from thesetruths in her writing. Instead,
she meets her readers where theyare, showing them that even in
(35:47):
the face of pain, there's a pathto healing and growth and hope.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (35:56):
Little Brown recognized, I could put
you through the ringer, but Ican come out on the other side,
that those children are strongerand better. And very often,
there'll be a moment where thechild teaches the parent, you
know, where Daysha says to herdad, dad, tell me what happened
at the towers. Tell me whyyou're so traumatized. And when
(36:18):
he tells her, he starts to heal.You know?
Or when Jerome says to Sarah inGhost Boys, you gotta talk to
your dad, Sarah. You can't justbe angry at him because he, you
know, he shot me. You know? It'slike, woah. But I think that
that is the gift of how I write,and I think it's connected to
why I've lived this long andsurvived.
(36:41):
That, again, always, eventually,the universe shines down with
love. So through my hard times,which were very bitter, through
the hard times that we gothrough in this world, it
doesn't remain that way. It willget better.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (36:57):
You know, I think your readers get so
attached to your work andprobably because you do give
them so much hope or I I don'tknow, but I suspect you must get
some really wonderful letters ormessages from them.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (37:07):
I'll tell you one letter that really
surprised me. A woman had boughtGhost Boys for her grandson, and
then she had a stroke, and shelost her ability to read. And
she said, I started readinglearning how to read again,
reading Ghost Boys. And shewanted to thank me because it
didn't make her feel dumb. Itdidn't make her feel stupid.
(37:29):
Not only did it bring up amemory that was important to
her, that it had substance thatas an adult reader, she could
access it and begin to learnwith it. Most of my books have a
very easy reading level becauseit's an oral tradition, and that
too is intentional. But I wasreally touched that she took the
time to write me. There was alsoa student named Philip Larkin
(37:50):
from Wisconsin who, though hedidn't tell me, his teacher
wrote me and said that he was,you know, an 8th grader, and
this was the first book he hadfinished. And I said, I'm gonna
dedicate black brother, blackbrother to you.
You know that clearly, sometimeswe say the boys especially don't
read well enough or don't readenough. And we say it's because
(38:11):
they didn't quite like the skillor the ability, and it might be
no. They need to have a bookthat interests them. And so the
fact that my book grabbed souland he finished it to me, I
considered that a highest honor.There are some that also right.
They might have heard that mygrandmother raised me, and they
talk about how their grandmotheris raising them and how it was
(38:32):
important to see the love oftheir real parents in a way
reflected in the stories. Youknow? But one of the things that
I'll call have well, a lot ofthings I have with me always,
and I will when I'm dying andwhen I have all that stuff, and
I wanna pull it in and come andsee. And that actually comes
from Azure Neil Hurst sincetheir eyes are watching God.
(38:52):
When JD is finally dying, shecalls in all her memories to
come and see the life.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (38:58):
Yeah.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (38:59):
I'm gonna cry. The life lived. And for me,
that's that communication withthe children. But I was at an
all black boys school in Bostontalking about how there had been
a need to have a workforce andhow it was easier to stereotype
based on color and how bydemeaning Africans, they were
able to then enslave them andhow horrible and how that was
(39:22):
still existing through thecriminal justice system, the
school to prison pipeline, themurder of young black boys,
etcetera, etcetera, all of thoseconnections over history. Right?
And that was also why I hadEmmett in the book. It's this
historical pattern. And thisyoung kid came out to me, and he
said, you mean this is apattern? And I said, yes. And he
(39:45):
looked at me, and his eyes werewhite.
And he said, I always thought itwas me. So for every child that
thinks something is wrong withthem for why the world acts
cruelly or hatefully towardsthem, my book, Psych and Black
Brother by Brother, is saying,be you even if others can't see
(40:08):
you. The people who don't seeyour beauty, see your glory,
they have something wrong withtheir eyes, their soul. So I'm
really fundamentally trying togive children that self esteem
and let them know you start byloving yourself so that when
somebody is hateful towards you,it doesn't pierce your soul. Let
(40:29):
it go.
Don't be victimized twice over.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (40:33):
Oh my god. You're amazing. Amazing. You're
amazing.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (40:39):
Know about
Jordan Lloyd bookey (40:40):
that. You got me crying right now. Just
thinking about it.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (40:43):
I do feel deeply. And just to be very,
very clear, I do get fearful. Ido get insecure. For several of
my books, I didn't think I couldactually write it. Like, Ghost
Boys, I didn't think I could doit.
Towers Falling, I didn't think Icould do it, and so on and so
forth. And I am at that pointthat having had the honor of
(41:04):
being able to have my books in achild's hands, I do feel
responsibility that I wanna dothe hard stop. Because what have
I been practicing all this timefor? You know? And and I often
have agreements with mypublisher that if this doesn't
work, we won't publish it.
I'll give you the money back.You know? I mean, I have
(41:25):
probably now there's a failurein my horizon. But if there is,
I will not let it go out intothe world. I'm only gonna let go
out into the world my very bestfor the youth because that's
what they they deserve.
And I wanna do the hard stuffbecause do they need another a
novel that sort of, like,doesn't sort of fully engage
(41:46):
them intellectually andspiritually and emotionally?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (41:49):
For Jewel, writing is a profound act of
care, a way to give youngreaders the very best she has to
offer. But it's more thancrafting meaningful stories.
It's about leaving a legacy thatreflects her life, her
struggles, and her unwaveringcommitment to staying open to it
all.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (42:07):
But it is still that sort of raw impetus
in me to remind myself and alsoto tell the world I was here. I
am here. And that's, I think,maybe even really the super core
(42:27):
of why I do what I do and what'simportant to me in living my
life. So the good life when I goon, I tell students I'm gonna
come back as a ghost, especiallyif they don't vote. I guess,
ghost.
That it's like, you know, thatto me, it's like it brings me
more alive, but my life includesall the trauma. It includes the
(42:50):
ups and downs. It includes allthe emotional roller coaster.
And there used to be a time whenI just would try to shut down.
And I remember thinking, I'llbecome a robot.
And I made the conscious choicethat I was gonna try to remain
emotionally open to everythingthat had happened to me, the
good and the bad, because evenwhen I was hurting, that that
(43:12):
was an aspect of my my humanity.So having this chance to talk
and also to write, I think, isthat's what I'm really
expressing. When I finish abook, I say, I'll never write
another book again. But after acouple of months, I have to
write another book again Mhmm.And go through it all over again
(43:35):
and bring all my life's wisdomand understanding and the
discovery of other people'stimes and culture and how they
might have made choices based ontheir, say, gender like Will.
I couldn't imagine doing whatWill did, riding, you know, the
horse midnight to capture land.It's still it's my life's drama.
And, boy, am I so happy. I'mglad of it. But, yeah, it's
(43:59):
exhausting.
Jordan Lloyd bookey (44:00):
Yeah. I think they say that people who
have purpose live longer. Youknow, it's like statistically
proven. And I suspect that thatmight be part of why you seem to
be in very good health and, youknow, outdo it all of you, the
generation before you. You know,you have, like, a really deep
purpose, you know, and you cansense that in this conversation.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (44:22):
You're a sweetie. I do. I just wanted to
just say real quick. I did neverexpect to live this long. And so
now I I am definitely going for90.
If I could get to a 100 or 120
Jordan Lloyd bookey (44:33):
Like, let's just say a 100, you know, for
90.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (44:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's a it's a good
number. You know?
So I'm definitely going to it.And I think of Lin Manuel
Miranda. She's Hamiltoncharacter. I'm running out of
time. So for me, it's sort oflike the opportunity of
sometimes we waste time becausewe think it's endless, but it's
actually also can be a gift thatmy time is shortened.
So what am I gonna do with it?And what what can I accomplish
(44:59):
in this time that is left to me?And I'm I am indeed very, very
excited for it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (45:10):
Jewell's reading challenge, Comic Trips,
celebrates timeless classicsalongside the graphic novels of
today. It's an opportunity toexplore how this unique art form
has grown and to challenge themisconception that graphic
novels aren't real books.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (45:26):
I would recommend The Prince and the
pauper, you know, King Arthur,the round table, Prince Valiant,
and I think it'd be a wonderfulexercise to read some of the
early graphic novels or read,you know, exercise to read some
of the early graphic novels orread you know, if you want
Veronica, you know, and Jughead,you know, and compare them to
this new graphic novel explosionthat we're having. And our
(45:47):
tendency for some of us to say,oh, those aren't real books. I
think, no. It's just a differentkind of art form.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (45:54):
You can find Jewell's reading challenge
and all past reading challengesat the reading culture pod dot
com. And today's beanstalkfeatured librarian is once again
Kat Gatcombe, my colleague atbeanstalk, and the former youth
services supervisor at NashuaPublic Library in New Hampshire.
This week, Kat shares 2 keylessons she wishes that she knew
(46:17):
earlier as a librarian.
Kat Gatcomb (46:19):
I think when it comes to programming, they're so
important to look to yourcommunity. And I think one thing
that I had to learn over timewas that it's okay to not know
how to do something or not bethe person to facilitate
something. It's actuallyprobably better to not. So if
there is an interest insomething in the community is
(46:40):
asking for it or there's a needfor it, Finding someone else to
facilitate can be so much moreimpactful than stumbling through
something that you're notqualified to instruct or
passionate about. And I thinkthe other thing that I've seen
with so many librarians is youget so passionate about what
we're doing or so invested inthe work that you forget it is
(47:04):
your job.
And so you have to separateyourself from that and really
setting boundaries and knowing,like, I can go to work. I can be
a really good librarian. I canmake a difference, but I also am
a person. And at the end of theday, I need to go home and,
like, take care of myself. I sawa lot of librarians, including
myself, struggling with that.
(47:25):
So I think it's just a goodreminder that you're more than
just your job.
Jewell Parker Rhodes (47:34):
This has been
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (47:34):
the reading culture, and you've been
listening to my conversationwith Jewel Parker Rhodes. Again,
I'm your host, Jordan LloydBookie, and currently, I'm
reading Colored Television byDanzy Senna and School Trip by
Jerry Craft. If you've enjoyedtoday's episode, please show
some love and give us a 5 starreview. It just takes a second,
and it really, really helps.This episode was produced by Mel
(47:57):
Webb, Jackie Lamport, and LowerStreet Media and script edited
by Josiah Lamberto Egan.
To learn more about how you canhelp grow your community's
reading culture, you can checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com, and remember tosign up for our newsletter at
the reading culture pod dot comforward slash newsletter for
special offers and bonuscontent. Thanks for listening
(48:18):
and keep reading.
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