November 12, 2024 • 44 mins
“I think kids are actually generally a better audience for literary fiction, for art, for ambitious storytelling that asks the reader to do work. And a lot of that is just based on how their brains work and their place in the world.” - Mac Barnett
Growing up, Mac Barnett’s mom never took their picture books off their shelves. They remained a part of his reading world, even as he grew up and could read more mature books. Maybe that choice helped Mac’s youthful spirit alight for longer. As he often notes, kids’ minds are portals to the imaginary, to making believe. For them, everything is possible: superheroes, magic, ghosts. Mac believes that open-mindedness is crucial to fully understanding and appreciating fiction, which is why he makes the argument that kids are the best audience for fiction, and in particular, picture books.
Mac Barnett is a best-selling, prolific children's author celebrated for his clever, imaginative storytelling and sharp sense of humor. He is known for books like “Extra Yarn,” “Sam and Dave Dig a Hole,” “The Terrible Two,” series and the “Mac B, Kid Spy” series. He has received numerous accolades, including two Caldecott Honors and the E.B. White Read-Aloud Award.
In this episode, Mac shares why he believes that most adults struggle to understand what makes a good children’s book. He also unpacks “Frog and Toad” as a work of experimental fiction and reflects on the lessons he's learning from his three-year-old son.
Given Mac's passion for picture books, it's fitting that his reading challenge centers around them. For his challenge, “The Possibilities of Picture Books,” he has curated a selection designed to help us see the capaciousness of the picture book format—just as his mother once did for him. Learn more and download Mac’s recommended reading list at thereadingculturepod.com/mac-barnett
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This episode's Beanstack Featured Librarian is Mari Martinez, an assistant manager and librarian at Broward County Library. She tells us why she sees the library as a secret buffet.
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Connect with Jordan and The Reading Culture @thereadingculturepod and subscribe to our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter.
Show Chapters
Chapter 1 - The Picture Book Proclamation
Chapter 2 - A Hall of Clocks
Chapter 3 - Smaller, Better, Faster, Smarter
Chapter 4 - Writing for Five-Year-Olds
Chapter 5 - The Will to Make Believe (and believe it)
Chapter 6 - Mac to Mac
Chapter 7 - The Possibilities of Picture Books
Chapter 8 - Beanstack Featured Librarian
Links
- The Reading Culture
- The Reading Culture Newsletter Signup
- Mac Barnett
- Mac Barnett: Instagram
- The Picture Book Proclamation
- Mac Barnett: Why a Good Book is a Secret Door
- Are Five-Year-Olds Better at Reading than Adults?
- "Writing for Five-Year-Olds" by Margaret Wise Brown
- Follow The Reading Culture on Instagram (for giveaways and bonus content)
- Beanstack resources to build your community’s reading culture
- Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Host: Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Producers: Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media
Script Editors: Josia Lamberto-Egan, Jackie Lamport, Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mac Barnett (00:01):
That is the job of the writer of fiction is to sort
of create the conditions thatare necessary for you to
willingly suspend yourdisbelief.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:11):
Remember being a kid and everything was
possible? A crack in thesidewalk was a portal to another
world, or a small crevicebetween your bed and a dresser
was the apt spot for animpenetrable fort? Kids spend so
much of their time making upstories, making up games, and
immersing themselves in theimaginary. And it's because of
(00:34):
that that Mac Barnett thinksthey make the best audience to
write for.
Mac Barnett (00:39):
I think kids are actually, generally, a better
audience for literary fiction,for art, for ambitious
storytelling that asks thereader to do work. And a lot of
that is just based on how theirbrains work and and their place
in the world. Right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:59):
He argues that kids come with an array of
inherent skills crucial to notonly enjoying fiction, but also
understanding it on a deeperintellectual level. And that
intellectual level is somethinghe believes kids don't get
enough credit for, especiallywhen it comes to books.
Mac Barnett (01:18):
I think literature, especially picture books, are a
place where children and adultscan meet as equals.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (01:25):
Mac Barnett is a best selling children's
author known for his witty,imaginative storytelling and
keen sense of humor. My kidsadore his books. He was always
one of their favorites growingup, and he's best known for
books like Extra Yarn or Sam andDave Dig a Hole, as well as the
Terrible 2 series and the Mac BSpy Kids series. And he's earned
(01:49):
numerous accolades, including 2Caldecott Honors and the EB
White Read Aloud Award. In thisepisode, Mac contends that most
adults are bad judges of whatmakes decent kids' books.
He unpacks "Frog and Toad" as aunique work of experimental
fiction and admits how much heis learning from his own 3 year
(02:10):
old son. Oh, and he also tellsus about that one time he was
attacked by a panther and livedto tell the tale, the tall tale.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookie,and this is The Reading Culture,
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
(02:34):
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
for motivating students to readmore.
Learn more at beanstack.com andmake sure to check us out on
Instagram at the reading culturepod and subscribe to our
newsletter for bonus content atthe reading culture pod dot com
forward slash newsletter. Hey,listeners. Are you looking for a
(03:02):
fun, easy way to track yourreading and earn cool rewards?
Well, meet Beanstack, theultimate reading app used by a
community of over 15,000schools, libraries, and
organizations nationwide. Areyou an avid reader?
Check with your local library tosee if they offer Beanstack for
free. A parent? Ask your child'steacher if the school library
(03:25):
already uses Beanstack, and ifyou are an educator searching
for a fresh alternative toaccelerated reader, Beanstack is
the perfect tool to cultivate athriving reading culture. Ready
to turn the page? Visitbeanstack.com to learn more.
(03:46):
If you don't already know this,you will come to learn very
quickly in this episode thatMack has an intense love of
picture books, so much so thatin 2011, he wrote a manifesto
declaring the significance andmagic of the format. He called
it the Picture BookProclamation, and this is how it
(04:06):
came to be.
Mac Barnett (04:08):
It was sparked by, first, an article that was front
page of The New York Times in2010. And children's books are
never on the front page of TheNew York Times. Like, we made
the front page, and I justremember, like, walking through
the airport, looking at TheTimes, and seeing the word
picture book in a headline. AndI was like, this is incredible.
Like, what are they saying aboutpicture books?
(04:29):
And it was basically like, thepicture book is dead, was the
headline. And it was long. Itwas a long, well reported
article with editors, educators,parents, all saying, like, Yeah,
we're not into picture books.And the picture book is my
favorite art form. I writepicture books, middle grade
novels, and graphic novels.
(04:49):
And I think that the picturebook is the most exciting, the
most flexible, the mostambitious. It's children's
literature's great gift toliterature as a whole. It was
invented by children's writersand children's illustrators. It
wouldn't exist withoutchildren's authors and without
children, but it's an amazingart form. So I was really mad
(05:09):
about that, but I was also sortof disappointed by some of the
response in the children's bookcommunity, which was just sort
of like felt like thoughtlesscheerleading.
It was just this sort of likeautomatic defense that was like
picture books are magic, allbooks are magic. And I was like,
that's not it either. All booksaren't magic, good books are
(05:31):
magic, but picture books arelike anything else. There are
great ones and there are badones, but the sort of the
cultural ecosystem around them,the discourse around them, it
needs to be really sharp andsmart. And what can we all do?
What can all adults do who arestakeholders in this? Writers
and illustrators, but alsopublishers, librarians,
(05:55):
booksellers, caregivers. Whatcan we all do around this to
make sure that the bestchildren's books and the best
picture books are beingpublished? Because that's the
best way to get kids excitedabout picture books, is to have
good ones to do.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (06:10):
Make them good.
Mac Barnett (06:11):
You can make them good. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (06:12):
Sounds basic, but if you're a parent
and you've read a lot of them,you know, if you just go get a
hall at the library, it's like,it's hit or miss.
Mac Barnett (06:19):
Yeah, that exact thing. And so, yeah, you'll just
kind of pick out 10 or 15. Andif you pick out 15 books and
only 2 of them are good, youstart thinking, like, well,
anybody could write this stuff,right? Like, what is this? But
if you just got 15 random piecesof fiction from the bookstore,
if you just pick them up off theshelves, you might
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (06:40):
Have the same experience.
Mac Barnett (06:42):
Yeah, exactly. And you wouldn't be like, the novel
is dead. It's so easy to writethese things. But adults are not
experts in picture books, inchildren's books, or in
childhood, but we are reallyinvolved in the selection of
books for our kids. Right?
It's a very weird thing aboutthis art is that it's, like,
(07:08):
adults writing them,illustrating them, accepting
them for publication, editingthem, designing them, printing
them, reviewing them, making thedecision whether or not to buy
them. And then, finally, afterpassing through, like, scores of
adult hands, we finally get tothe kid that was supposed to be
the reason these books were allbeing made in the first place. I
(07:30):
think that what you hope is thatthe people who make these books
have some sort of directconnection to childhood, whether
that's a direct and accurateaccess, like a vivid connection
to their own childhoods, or theability to connect and really,
(07:51):
like, care for and listen toreal kids
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:55):
Yeah.
Mac Barnett (07:56):
Around them.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:57):
Yeah. I mean, you clearly have that
connection, you know, in yourwork. I can see that in your
writing. Maybe let's justreverse it for a second. Go back
to your own childhood.
And I know you grew up in CastroValley, which is in California,
but I don't know exactly where.It's near where you are now?
Mac Barnett (08:16):
Yeah. It's in the Bay Area. Yeah. It'd be just
Bay.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:19):
So you're like you're a cal you're
Mac Barnett (08:21):
I am a California. California. I am.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:25):
That's it. You know?
Mac Barnett (08:26):
I feel it too. Like, I do feel like I am, like,
100% Californian. Are you
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:30):
sipping on an oat milk latte? Like a
partisan one?
Mac Barnett (08:34):
Right. I'm not gonna beat the oat milk
allegations. But right now, it'sjust black coffee, you know? So
very East Coast morning for me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:42):
And you grew up, it was just you and
your mom? Did you have
Mac Barnett (08:45):
My parents divorced when I was 1, and so I saw my
dad every other weekend. Helived in Oakland, which is also
in the East Bay. But, yeah, itwas, it was me and my mom in a
house in Castro Valley most ofthe time.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:58):
Yeah. What was it like? What was the vibe
of your household?
Mac Barnett (09:02):
I lived very far always from where I went to
school. I lived like 25, 30minutes away from school. So I
spent a lot of time in my house,and it was like a lot of time
with just my mom. We were reallyclose because of that, but also
like if she was going to pay thebills or do anything, like, take
(09:26):
care of yourself, right, like,figure out something to do. I
think I had, like, a prettyvivid imagination, and I did
love books and coming up withstories in my head.
I got good at not just likebeing alone, but really like
enjoying being alone. And then Iwould just spend a lot of time
in my room just sort of likeplaying with my toys, talking to
(09:49):
my stuffed animals, making bigplays, and going on adventures,
pretend adventures with them.And, yeah, I think books were
always they always were such ahuge part of my childhood. I
think my mom was reallydetermined, like, as a single
mom to do it right. And for her,one of those things, like, very
(10:10):
high on the list of those thingswas to have a lot of picture
books around for me.
So she got, like, reading listsof picture books to have, and
then would just go to yard salesand get mostly older picture
books because that's what wasfor sale.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:25):
Was she like a fun storyteller?
Mac Barnett (10:28):
Yes. My mom was really good at reading books out
loud. My mom is really funny, soshe would read to me. And I
think that reading stuff likeJames Marshall, I remember her
just laughing so hard. She's gota wicked sense of humor, a
little bit of a dark sense ofhumor.
(10:48):
And I think that seeing herlaugh at picture books that I
also thought were funny, it wasreally validating. And I was
like, oh, this isn't just, like,something that she's doing for
me. These aren't just, like,only for kids. Like, she's
crying, laughing at this book,and that made it it just made it
(11:11):
cool. Right?
It it was like, wow. This isreal. Like, this actually is
funny.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:17):
Yeah. I'm thinking that I wish my my kids
thought that me thinkingsomething funny would make it
funny now they're older, but I II hear that. And you said you
spent a lot of time alone as akid. Yeah. So did you eventually
find, you know, your people inschool?
Were you were you on your ownthere as well?
Mac Barnett (11:34):
I think I was very much my own world. In middle
school, I, like, I think I wasso in my head that I maybe
didn't realize that I should beangsty. Like like, everybody
loves my French accent that Ido. It's so funny.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:49):
Wait. Is that a real thing?
Mac Barnett (11:51):
Yeah. I would just like I you know, like, I would
just, like, learn all charactersfrom Saturday Night Live. And
Oh, yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:56):
I was gonna ask. I'm like, he must like
Saturday Night Live.
Mac Barnett (11:58):
Okay. I did. I loved it growing up, and I would
you know, like, you just haveall these, like, comedy bits.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:04):
Yeah.
Mac Barnett (12:04):
My feeling at the time was that, like, everybody
loves my comedy bits. Butlooking back, I'm not so sure
that that was the case. Highschool was really hard, like 9th
grade was-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:17):
Oh, really?
Mac Barnett (12:18):
Yeah, that's where it hit. I think I got there and
I felt so young. I felt so muchyounger than everybody else
there, including those people Ihad just graduated from 8th
grade with and were at this highschool. Things seemed to change
a lot faster than I was readyfor. For the first 3 months, I
(12:39):
had literally no friends.
I was just so overwhelmed. And Iremember just walking. We had an
activity period, it was like 15minutes long. I just remember I
didn't have anybody to hang outwith. I would just walk the
halls, and, like, there would be3 or 4 clocks that were just
mounted in the wall.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:00):
Clock. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (13:00):
Mhmm. Those big wall clocks. Yeah. And I would
just, like, check the minutes,like, from clock to clock to
until activity period was over.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:09):
Ugh. Yeah. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (13:11):
My first friend that I I I made that year was
Sean, Sean Harris, who I nowmake books with.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:20):
Oh, that is wild. Wait, was he in, he was
just in school with you in highschool when you were together?
Mac Barnett (13:24):
Yeah, he went to the same high school as me, but
also grew up in Castro Valley.And our high school was in
Oakland. So it was like finalsweek of freshman year, 1st
semester. And, like, my finalswere over at 11, and my mom
wasn't gonna be picking me uptill 5. So I need to count
minutes.
Yep. Ready to count it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:41):
I know that walk those walls. I walked those
walls.
Mac Barnett (13:44):
There's a lot of minutes.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:45):
Should have been enough Fitbits or whatever
back then. Or it rings. Okay.
Mac Barnett (13:49):
Totally. So this girl, Kate, was like, oh, like,
you live in Castro Valley.Right? My friend Sean lives in
Castro Valley. Maybe he'll giveyou a ride home.
And I just, like, this guy injust bell bottoms and, like,
some wild shirt. He was, like,wearing 4 articles of clothing
and 9 patterns somehow. It waslike, hey. I'll give you a ride
(14:13):
home, and that was Sean, andYeah. We've been friends ever
since.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:17):
Even as Mac was navigating the high school
years and meeting futurecollaborators, picture books
stuck around in his life, and hegot his first inkling of how
powerful they could be at anyage.
Mac Barnett (14:30):
Like my mom is pretty sentimental and also kind
of a pack rat too, so like, shedoesn't like to get rid of
things. So my she never like You
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:39):
did become a famous author, so now when you
have your archives, all of yourit's gonna be there for people.
Mac Barnett (14:45):
That's true.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:46):
There will be it is all there. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (14:48):
It's true. It's funny that you said that because
my one of my mom's big projectis she calls the archive, which
is her collection of everythingstill ongoing. But, yeah, my
picture books, she never gaveaway. So sort of like the bottom
two shelves of this big bookcasewere picture books. And then the
earliest chapter books, theBeverly Cleary's and Judy Blooms
(15:10):
that I was reading went abovethose, then Lord of the Rings
and so it was sort of like asthe shelves got higher, the
books got you could say older,it's that I got older in terms
of when I was reading them, butI never because the picture
books were always there, I wasalways seeing their spines.
Sometimes I would pull one out.There was never this idea, like,
(15:31):
okay, we've moved past picturebooks. In high school, I started
I was a reading tutor, so Iwould go down to, just as a
volunteer, to the elementaryschool down the hill from my
high school and I would sit andwork on reading with kids who
were struggling to learn toread. And the books that they
(15:52):
had on hand, the Easy Readers,they were so bad. They were so
bad.
And it was really frustratingfor kids and for me too to sit
there and, like, to watch a kidsort of heroically struggle.
Like, I have a very vivid memoryof this happening. I was sitting
next to this kid. He was workingso hard to read the couple
(16:14):
sentences on this page, and hegot through it. And it was so
exciting.
It was sort of a breakthrough ingetting that many words decoded.
And I felt, like, this rush of,like, yes. And he just looked up
at me, and he was like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:28):
That's it?
Mac Barnett (16:28):
That's it. Yeah. This is boring.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:30):
That's the payoff?
Mac Barnett (16:32):
Yeah. And I was like, you're right. Like, this
story is terrible. And it feltlike such a betrayal, and my
elation immediately crashed,where I was like, Man, what a
mess.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:43):
Like,
Mac Barnett (16:43):
of course, we need to make readers accessible and
work on phonics, and like allthese things are, yeah, this is
important to the acquisition ofreading, but we can't forget the
point, at least when it's It'sthe
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:58):
exclusion of entertainment, right?
Mac Barnett (17:00):
Yes, that's right. Because that's wrong too, that,
like, the promise, if youacquire this, you're gonna get
exciting knowledge, entertainingstories, there's joy and
excitement and emotion andpleasure in this. And so at this
time where we're saying to kids,like, learn this skill that's
gonna be really hard, but it'sworth it, And we put a text in
(17:23):
front of them that is reallyhard and is not worth it. Like,
what are we doing? So I justwent back to my picture books,
and I picked the ones that Ifelt like were easiest to read,
but the kind of richest stories,the most exciting, complex,
funniest, or or nuanced stuff.
(17:44):
And I brought those in, and itjust worked so much better.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:49):
You heard Mac say earlier that picture
books are an ambitious art formfor a writer, one that offers a
writer creative possibilitiesthat standard novels don't. But
he also believes that picturebooks are ambitious for the
reader, that to read and tounderstand them at their full
depth requires, to quote therenowned Irish scholar Liam
(18:10):
Neeson, a particular set ofskills. Those skills range, but
some examples might include anunusually keen attention to
visual detail, an ear especiallytuned to new language and
wordplay, an uncommon knack forimmersing oneself in alternate
world building. And while bookcritics and librarians and
(18:31):
reading specialists can work tohone their own abilities,
there's an often underestimatedgroup of people that, as Mac
points out, come to the tablewith the precise set of picture
book specific skills alreadydialed to 10.
Mac Barnett (18:48):
We tend to think of kids as, in so many ways,
inferior to adults, lesssophisticated, more sort of
emotionally unstable, needingguidance, and needing adult
authority. And it is true thatkids do need adults to take care
(19:09):
of them. And in mostcircumstances that children and
adults meet, the adult is anauthority figure, and often
teaching, giving wisdom, settingrules, setting boundaries, and
enforcing them. And I do thinkchildren benefit from that
(19:31):
system, but it also is one thatis very comfortable for adults,
very flattering to adults. And Ithink we get used to it.
I think that we think that thatis the only way for adults and
kids to interact. I thinkliterature, especially picture
books, are a place wherechildren and adults can meet as
(19:53):
equals. And I think that as awriter, I am not ever
approaching this as like, I havewisdom that you don't have or
access to rules that you need toknow about, and so I will make
them palatable by telling themin a story. I think, Oh, I love
telling a story and I lovetelling a story to kids,
(20:15):
especially. And the reason forthat is that I think kids are
actually generally a betteraudience for literary fiction,
for art, for ambitiousstorytelling that asks the
reader to do work.
And a lot of that is just basedon how their brains work and
(20:36):
their place in the world, right?They're more flexible thinkers.
They are expert noticers. Theynotice such small details in the
world around us.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (20:48):
Like try going for a walk with a 3 year
old, you know, around the block.It can take you an hour.
Mac Barnett (20:53):
Yes, and boy, it's humbling too, right, as they
notice as they notice thingsthat are are truly beautiful
that you never would have seen.I have a 3 year old, and and
it's like that every every daywe go outside. He notices
everything. Notices the moon thesecond it's in the sky as soon
as we go out, notices everyairplane, notices small bugs,
(21:17):
drops of dew on a leaf. Andquestions kids ask are the same
questions that artists andwriters sit down and ponder, and
they're the things that we'vebeen wondering about for as long
as we've been making art, andwe've never answered them,
because we won't, right?
(21:38):
What is love? What happens afterwe die? When you're really
young, you're acquiringlanguage. You're so attuned to
the connections between them,right? Like this word, my 3 year
old, at first, you were noticingsounds and words matching,
Right?
It's like, that matches. Andthey'd be 2 very disparate words
in terms of meaning, but hewould find these little
(21:59):
connections between them.Sometimes a rhyme is what he
meant, but sometimes theconnection would be totally like
sonic or lexical, but much muchsmaller than rhyme. And it's
like this is the tool of ofpoetry and any Bellatristic
prose. Right?
Like finding these littleplayful connections between
language. So, yeah, that art ofnoticing, the attention to the
(22:23):
beauty and sort of possibilityof language, the openness to
lots of kinds of storystructures, and just that
ability that kids have to kindof figure out a set of rules
quickly, not the rules of of,like, how to be at a dinner
table, but, like, how this storyworks.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:42):
We're just gonna be okay with these animals
talking, these animals living inanother animal's stomach or
whatever, you know, like, theseare our rules.
Mac Barnett (22:50):
Right. Where it's like, can animals talk? If they
can talk, can people hear them?Do they wear clothes? Do they
wear full clothes?
Or do they wear just someclothes? What happens when an
animal is naked socially? Right?That's a big part of frog
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:04):
and toad. Yes. We
Mac Barnett (23:04):
do. There's a huge story about toad going swimming
that, like, revolves aroundthese very complex rules around,
like, swimming fashion versusskinny dipping if you're an
animal. And it's brilliant, butit's specific only to that
story. Do they have furniture?Do they cook?
Do they eat each other? Like, inthis animal story, would a bear
(23:30):
eat a deer or would they hangout and be friends? We have to
learn all that stuff specific toeach story. Kids learn that
stuff instantly. It's amazing tosee.
You know, I talked about, like,picture books being a place
where adults and kids can meetas equals, but, you know, really
the truth is, it's a place whereoften the kids are doing a
better job than we are. When achild reaches the age of 5, he
(24:00):
is the sum total of all hisyounger experiences and
discoveries in a brand newworld. He carries with him the 2
year old's delight in sheersound and pounding rhythms, and
the glamour of the 2 year old'sown small self. The 3 year old's
humor and love of pattern, andhis pleasure in the familiar
(24:21):
sights of his own world. The 4year old's further joining of
sound and pattern with rhythmand content.
And 4 year old's first playfulflights into the humor of the
incongruous things that he justknows enough to know are not
true. And finally, the 5 yearold's own keen humor and
(24:42):
penetrating observation of theworld around him. The careful
watching of his own eyes andears, the keenness of his nose,
and the sensitiveness of histouch, and the fine and vivid
imagery of his own language.Here, perhaps, is the stage of
rhyme and reason. It iscertainly true that a 5 year old
(25:04):
has a keenness and awarenessthat will probably be displaced
or blunted later.
For the first time, he has thepower of words, to use them and
to hear them, to describe thethings that his 5 year old
senses perceive. He has his feetfirmly enough on the ground now
(25:25):
to go bouncing off on the mosthilarious flights of
imagination, and to sympathizewith, and be curious about
situations not his own. Herethen is a challenging age to
write for.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:42):
That passage is from an essay by
beloved Goodnight Moon authorMargaret Wise Brown called
Writing for 5 Year Olds. Theessay, as you heard from that
excerpt, stresses the importanceof respecting kids' intelligence
and curiosity when writing foryoung readers. And if you think
kids are a less perceptiveaudience than adults, she says,
(26:05):
you've got it exactly backwards,and Mac wholeheartedly agrees.
Mac Barnett (26:12):
I've always loved Margaret Wise Brown. She grew up
wanting to be a poet. That washer plan when she graduated
college. She moved to New YorkCity, was not making money as a
poet, as many poets in New YorkCity don't. And so, thought,
Okay, I'm gonna become ateacher, and that's what I'll do
(26:33):
to make money while I'm workingon poetry.
So she went to the Bank StreetSchool of Education, but
basically they were like, she'sgonna be a terrible teacher, but
she also will just sort of holdthe attention of the entire
class for 30, 45 minutes, anhour, telling them stories,
creating little plays with them,and everybody marveled at this.
(26:55):
It was coming into contact withactual kids, seeing what they
were capable of, and actuallyseeing that the things that they
were so good at were, 1, thethings that we sort of think
about cultivating in ourselvesin order to appreciate art. Like
the connoisseur model of the artappreciator is somebody who,
(27:16):
over years of study, attains theability to understand these
things. And she says, no, like,look at this, these things that
I watch 2 year olds, 3 yearolds, 4 year olds, 5 year olds
do, these are the skills thatyou need to appreciate a poem.
These are the skills you need toappreciate a story.
(27:37):
Here, they have rhyme andreason, both. Then that line is
so heartbreaking about thekeenness that is going to be
displaced or blunted later.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:48):
I know. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (27:49):
This is temporary that kids have this, that for
these kids, as they get older,they're going to lose them, and
that's gonna be adulthood, thatwe're gonna lose these things.
And so maybe what theconnoisseur does is not attain
these things for the first time,but reawaken a certain set of
skills and combine it, ofcourse, with adult experience,
(28:10):
which will, you know, change theart that they like and the way
they think about it. But some ofthe skills, some of those most
important skills that we thinkwe need to develop in order to
understand art or literature areskills that are, if not innate,
they're available to us veryearly, but then we lose them.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:28):
This is like a different version of
everything I learned. EverythingI needed to learn, I learned in
kindergarten or something. Youknow? It's actually, like,
everything I need, I learnedbefore I got to kindergarten is
Mac Barnett (28:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And then her last line that I read
there of just, like, here's achallenging age to write for to
say that, like, the obligationsof the children's writer are are
huge, and in fact, maybe higherthan they are for writing for
adults. That it's really tough.They're tough critics, and they
(28:58):
also, their lives are differentfrom us.
And so the adult must be good atall these things that makes good
writing because children payattention to them, and those
things are things they enjoyabout writing too. And then you
also need to talk aboutchildren's lives and experiences
in a way that is recognizableand authentic to them. If what
(29:19):
you wanna do is make children'sliterature stories for children
and not missives handed downfrom the world of adults and
delivered to the world ofchildren, then it's tough. Okay.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:32):
Okay. I'm starting to feel a little sad
for us adults with our bluntedset of skills and our tendency
to get bogged down and impartinglessons. The problem, of course,
is that we've got too many yearsanchored in the rules of the
real world. We've lost the habitof imagining other realities.
(29:53):
And the willingness to suspendour disbelief is a harder
intellectual battle than when wewere kids, and things like Santa
and monsters were still a partof our landscape.
Because of this, Mack believesthat kids are better recipients
for a complex literary form thatuses imagination and immersion
as 2 of its essential elements.
Mac Barnett (30:15):
That phrase comes from Coleridge from an essay
that he he talked about, like,the reader having the willing
suspension of disbelief and thatmaking a poem or a story or an
artwork, you need to do that asa reader in order to truly
experience it. Right? To saylike, alright, I would give
(30:36):
myself over to the world of thisstory, and I'm gonna, like, live
inside it and feel these things.It's a beautiful phrase, but
also like something that feelslike the same phrase that kids
say all the time is makebelieve, right? Willing
suspension of disbelief.
The way that Coleridge framesit, we are not being duped. The
artwork isn't tricking you intodoing it. You willingly suspend
(30:59):
this. Same thing for makebelieve. Like, we make ourselves
believe.
We're gonna make believe thatwe're a family. We're gonna make
believe this is a fort. And thatis just so fundamental to the
way kids operate in the world.Right? They will just go into
make believe just while you'remaking dinner.
They will go into make believein the car. They will go into
(31:21):
make believe when you're at afancy restaurant. And all of
these conditions that, like, theadult author is, like, trying
to, like, coax the reader intothe willing suspension of
disbelief, kids are like, let'smake believe.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:34):
Let's do it. They're ready.
Mac Barnett (31:35):
Yeah. And so you can go farther faster with them
than you can with adults.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:47):
Mac happened to have a story handy,
and it's a pretty funny one,about an experience he had with
a kid when he was their campcounselor. It really exemplifies
this willingness to suspendtheir disbelief.
Mac Barnett (31:59):
I was telling a story. It was autobiographical,
like, the story I was telling tomy campers. It's like, oh,
here's what happened to me lastweek. And I just gotten to this
part where, like, I jumped off apirate ship that was exploding,
and then had been washed up onthis island, and then a jaguar
attacked me. And this one kidstarted shaking his head and he
(32:21):
was like, Nope, Nope.
A jaguar did not attack you. Andeverything else he was in, like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (32:29):
You were on a pirate ship, but this was for
sure.
Mac Barnett (32:31):
The pirate ship, the explosion, the tidal wave
generated by the explosion, buta jaguar did not attack you.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (32:38):
One bridge too far? Yeah. And I
Mac Barnett (32:41):
was, like, yes. A jaguar attacked me. And he's,
like, prove it. I was, like,alright. I'll prove it tomorrow.
And so I just I went home and Ihad an old t shirt and I just,
like, ripped it up. And then Ibrought it in the next day, and
I was like, this is the shirtthat I was wearing when the
jaguar attacked me. And he toreit up with his claws and teeth.
(33:01):
And the kid was like, alright.Alright.
Alright. That seems legit. Thatchecks out. And he just needed
that little bit of extra tobelieve. Right?
We want to. And we Obviously,what yes. Yeah. That's right.
And, like, that is the job ofthe writer of fiction is to sort
of create the conditions thatare necessary for you to
(33:21):
willingly suspend yourdisbelief, to make believe.
And for whatever reason, he hadto hang up on the jaguar thing.
And so I needed, as a writer, tocome up with, like, another way
to support that so he couldcontinue being invested in the
story the way that he wanted tobe too, the way that we were
enjoying in this spirit of play.And I don't have a a ripped up t
shirt when I'm making a picturebook or but you do have this
(33:48):
tools of a writer. Those are allthe tools of a writer. Right?
That's humor, that's sentenceconstruction, that's pacing,
that's those are all thewriter's tools are basically
like that drawer of ripped up tshirts that you you parade out
in order to create conditionsfor a reader to give themselves
over to the story.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (34:08):
All of those writer's tools, of course,
work best when they're pairedwith great illustrations, and
Mack has collaborated with awho's who of contemporary
illustrators, from ChristianRobinson to Carson Ellis to Adam
Rex to Marla Frazee to hisfrequent partner and guest of
this podcast, Jon Claassen. Iwondered whether his audience
tended to give more recognitionto the artist rather than the
(34:32):
writer.
Mac Barnett (34:33):
I do think that there actually is something to
that. It's funny. I think thatinvisibility that you have as a
as a picture book writer, it'sreal. I think that your primary
experience with a picture bookis visual. And so when you have
somebody like James Marshall orJohn Clawson, as a reader, you
just recognize those characters,that art style.
(34:54):
And it's an emotional response.It's a world that you're gonna
spend time in and the words,they're not like subsumed into
that, but it is in primary. AndI think that actually, like, it
can be very liberating for awriter too.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (35:09):
Yeah. Yeah. I could see that actually. And
do you feel like you have tokinda stay out of the artist's
way? I guess, how do you findthe balance of not writing too
much?
Mac Barnett (35:18):
It's weird. Like, the act of writing picture books
is so much about leaving spacesbecause I'm also trying to leave
space for the illustrator too.So it really does feel like
you're like building this thingwith lots of holes and gaps in
it. It's just so fundamental tolike the way my brain works when
(35:39):
I'm in a picture bookmanuscript. You're supposed to
be a shirker as a picture bookwriter.
You're always looking for thingsthat you don't have to say. What
don't I have to describe? Whatdon't I want to tell you happen?
And it's up to the storytellerhow much goes in and how much is
left out. But if you get thecombination right, you can leave
(36:03):
these places of ambiguity orthese unsaid, unspoken, maybe
undescribable things, and thereader will feel compelled or
empowered or excited aboutfiguring out what it means.
And to do that, they'll bringtheir own intelligence and their
own experience to the story andmake an interpretation specific
(36:24):
to them. Kids are so good atputting themselves in those
spaces, both mentally, evenphysically, like the way kids
interact with the world. Like,small kids will crawl into, you
know, underneath any couch orkind of go under the table at a
restaurant. My son would find,like, the smallest little
(36:46):
alleyway between the edge of apiece of furniture and the wall
it was against, and he wouldsqueeze himself into a shimmy
in, and then he would call it,he still does it, but when he
first started doing it, he wouldcall all these little tiny
things that he went into houses.He would say, I'm in a house.
This is a house. And I was like,this is it. Like, the fact that
(37:06):
they find these small spaces andthey make them capacious enough,
they see them as a house thatthey can live in, that they can
put their entire selves, theirentire physical and emotional
lives into. We do the same thingas writers. We create these
little cracks, these littlecrevices, these little spaces in
between the things that we say,and kids will put themselves
(37:31):
into those little spaces andmake a house there.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (37:34):
Oh, I love that visual. It's so true. And,
I mean, you can really sensethat you you have not lost touch
with that excitement aboutwriting or just about, like,
picture books. You know?
Mac Barnett (37:44):
This is an art form that is less than a 100 years
old. It's new. We're stillfiguring out what it can do, and
that feels really exciting too.I sometimes feel just like the
joy of running around a forestand finding new creeks and
(38:05):
boulders and just like, I can'tbelieve that. I didn't know that
existed before.
Like, that's what it feels liketo make picture books.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (38:13):
Well, listeners, I have a Mac in my
life too. Well, a Malcolm whosometimes goes by Mac. It's my
nephew who's 5 years old and thecutest, and he adores Mac's
Circle Square and Triangle Booksand the new, related TV show,
Shape Island. So, of course, Ihad to let my Mac ask a
(38:34):
question.
Mari Martinez (38:35):
Are you really afraid of dodotic triangles?
Mac Barnett (38:39):
Oh, good question. No. I'm not afraid of the dark,
but I am afraid. And JohnClawson is afraid of snakes,
which is the other fear in thebook. But, John and I are both
really afraid of snakes.
I think I was afraid of the darkas a kid. I had a nightlight. I
remember that. But I'm no longerafraid of the dark, but I am
(39:02):
really afraid of snakes.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (39:08):
With Mac's lifelong love and dedication to
picture books, it's no surprisethat his reading challenge is
all about them. He's curated alist of books designed to get
you to appreciate them on awhole new level, just like his
mom did for him.
Mac Barnett (39:22):
One of the the first lines that I say in in
that proclamation that westarted on and went so far from,
is is that picture books are aform, not a genre. Right?
They're a way of tellingstories, but they're unbound by
any set of conventions. Theydon't have to work a certain
way. And I think that we all canthink of picture books kind of
(39:44):
being all arrayed around, veryspecific bull's eye that we
don't even need to be aimingfor.
Right? We think about them.Maybe having animal characters
teaching a lesson, being sweet,upbeat, and comforting. And they
can be so many other things. Andand reading widely in picture
books, you will see thisquickly, but I just put together
a list of some that I think showsome of quickly, but I just put
together a list of some that Ithink show some of the
(40:05):
possibilities of the picturebook.
This is not an exhaustive list.And, again, we haven't even
figured out all of the picturebooks possible. It's like a
tasting, a flight.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (40:12):
A taste. A sound. Yeah. That's
Mac Barnett (40:15):
exactly right.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (40:17):
Okay. Do you wanna how about just let's
name the books on the list.
Mac Barnett (40:20):
Perfect. Dead Bird by Margaret Weisbroyn,
illustrated by Remy Charlotte.The Dead Bird by Margaret Wise
Brown, illustrated by ChristianRobinson. Yeah. Okay.
And you'll see how much a storycan change in its meaning and
and even what the story is. Thesame manuscript and 2 different
(40:44):
illustrators. The Skull by JohnClawson. Do Is Talk by Carson
Ellis. Shortcut by Donald Crews.
Kuma Kuma chan by KazuTakahashi. Anno's Counting Book
by Mitsumata Anno. Mirror bySusie Lee. The Stinky Cheese Man
(41:09):
by John Scheska and Lane Smith,Rotten Island by William Steig,
Votes for Papa by JessicaBagley, and Guess Again by me
and illustrated by Adam Rex.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (41:26):
You can find Mac's reading challenge and
all past reading challenges atthe reading culture pod dot com.
This episode's Beanstackfeatured librarian is Mari
Martinez, an assistant managerand librarian at Broward County
Library. She tells us why shesees the library as a secret
(41:47):
buffet.
Mari Martinez (41:48):
This is something that I help grown ups and other
educators when they are alsonavigating the process of
showing the kids the collectionand how to find their perfect
book. I always tell them thelibrary's like a buffet. There's
a lot of books, a lot of dishes,and you're going to be tasting.
(42:09):
Some things will look appealingand and you're gonna try it, and
maybe you don't like it. Andthat's okay.
Move on to the next dish. Maybethe family that's coming behind
you will love it. Maybe the dishyou liked, another family didn't
like it. And so it's like abuffet, and you get to try and
choose, and you know what's thebest thing that's free.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (42:29):
And it's all you can eat. It's a great a
great metaphor.
Mari Martinez (42:32):
And if we don't have it because another reader
borrow it, we have other 37branches that we can get you the
book from. And we do interinterlibrary loans. So even if
the county doesn't have a book,we're gonna get it for you. I
just want I always tell them Iwant books in the handsome
people rather than on theshelves. So I always make that
connection of I am here to helpyou, and I'm gonna show you how
(42:56):
we organize things because itcould be overwhelming at first,
but you'll see that the more youtry it, the more you come, and
the more you bring your child,the easier it's gonna be.
Then it will be a problem of toomany books so little times.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (43:14):
This has been The Reading Culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with Mac Barnett.
Again, I'm your host, JordanLloyd Bookie, and currently I'm
reading The Message by Ta NehisiCoates and Furia by Chamile
Saeed Mendez. If you've enjoyedtoday's episode, please show
some love and give us a 5 starreview. It just takes a moment
(43:35):
and it really, really helps.This episode was produced by
Jackie Lamport and Lower StreetMedia and script edited by
Josiah Lamberto Egan.
To learn more about how you canhelp grow your community's
greeting culture, please checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com. And remember tosign up for our newsletter at
the reading culturepod.comforward/newsletter for
(43:57):
special offers and bonuscontent. Thanks for listening,
and keep reading.
That is the job of the writer of fiction is to sort
of create the conditions thatare necessary for you to
willingly suspend yourdisbelief.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:11):
Remember being a kid and everything was
possible? A crack in thesidewalk was a portal to another
world, or a small crevicebetween your bed and a dresser
was the apt spot for animpenetrable fort? Kids spend so
much of their time making upstories, making up games, and
immersing themselves in theimaginary. And it's because of
(00:34):
that that Mac Barnett thinksthey make the best audience to
write for.
Mac Barnett (00:39):
I think kids are actually, generally, a better
audience for literary fiction,for art, for ambitious
storytelling that asks thereader to do work. And a lot of
that is just based on how theirbrains work and and their place
in the world. Right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:59):
He argues that kids come with an array of
inherent skills crucial to notonly enjoying fiction, but also
understanding it on a deeperintellectual level. And that
intellectual level is somethinghe believes kids don't get
enough credit for, especiallywhen it comes to books.
Mac Barnett (01:18):
I think literature, especially picture books, are a
place where children and adultscan meet as equals.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (01:25):
Mac Barnett is a best selling children's
author known for his witty,imaginative storytelling and
keen sense of humor. My kidsadore his books. He was always
one of their favorites growingup, and he's best known for
books like Extra Yarn or Sam andDave Dig a Hole, as well as the
Terrible 2 series and the Mac BSpy Kids series. And he's earned
(01:49):
numerous accolades, including 2Caldecott Honors and the EB
White Read Aloud Award. In thisepisode, Mac contends that most
adults are bad judges of whatmakes decent kids' books.
He unpacks "Frog and Toad" as aunique work of experimental
fiction and admits how much heis learning from his own 3 year
(02:10):
old son. Oh, and he also tellsus about that one time he was
attacked by a panther and livedto tell the tale, the tall tale.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookie,and this is The Reading Culture,
a show where we speak withdiverse authors about ways to
build a stronger culture ofreading in our communities. We
dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
(02:34):
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
for motivating students to readmore.
Learn more at beanstack.com andmake sure to check us out on
Instagram at the reading culturepod and subscribe to our
newsletter for bonus content atthe reading culture pod dot com
forward slash newsletter. Hey,listeners. Are you looking for a
(03:02):
fun, easy way to track yourreading and earn cool rewards?
Well, meet Beanstack, theultimate reading app used by a
community of over 15,000schools, libraries, and
organizations nationwide. Areyou an avid reader?
Check with your local library tosee if they offer Beanstack for
free. A parent? Ask your child'steacher if the school library
(03:25):
already uses Beanstack, and ifyou are an educator searching
for a fresh alternative toaccelerated reader, Beanstack is
the perfect tool to cultivate athriving reading culture. Ready
to turn the page? Visitbeanstack.com to learn more.
(03:46):
If you don't already know this,you will come to learn very
quickly in this episode thatMack has an intense love of
picture books, so much so thatin 2011, he wrote a manifesto
declaring the significance andmagic of the format. He called
it the Picture BookProclamation, and this is how it
(04:06):
came to be.
Mac Barnett (04:08):
It was sparked by, first, an article that was front
page of The New York Times in2010. And children's books are
never on the front page of TheNew York Times. Like, we made
the front page, and I justremember, like, walking through
the airport, looking at TheTimes, and seeing the word
picture book in a headline. AndI was like, this is incredible.
Like, what are they saying aboutpicture books?
(04:29):
And it was basically like, thepicture book is dead, was the
headline. And it was long. Itwas a long, well reported
article with editors, educators,parents, all saying, like, Yeah,
we're not into picture books.And the picture book is my
favorite art form. I writepicture books, middle grade
novels, and graphic novels.
(04:49):
And I think that the picturebook is the most exciting, the
most flexible, the mostambitious. It's children's
literature's great gift toliterature as a whole. It was
invented by children's writersand children's illustrators. It
wouldn't exist withoutchildren's authors and without
children, but it's an amazingart form. So I was really mad
(05:09):
about that, but I was also sortof disappointed by some of the
response in the children's bookcommunity, which was just sort
of like felt like thoughtlesscheerleading.
It was just this sort of likeautomatic defense that was like
picture books are magic, allbooks are magic. And I was like,
that's not it either. All booksaren't magic, good books are
(05:31):
magic, but picture books arelike anything else. There are
great ones and there are badones, but the sort of the
cultural ecosystem around them,the discourse around them, it
needs to be really sharp andsmart. And what can we all do?
What can all adults do who arestakeholders in this? Writers
and illustrators, but alsopublishers, librarians,
(05:55):
booksellers, caregivers. Whatcan we all do around this to
make sure that the bestchildren's books and the best
picture books are beingpublished? Because that's the
best way to get kids excitedabout picture books, is to have
good ones to do.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (06:10):
Make them good.
Mac Barnett (06:11):
You can make them good. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (06:12):
Sounds basic, but if you're a parent
and you've read a lot of them,you know, if you just go get a
hall at the library, it's like,it's hit or miss.
Mac Barnett (06:19):
Yeah, that exact thing. And so, yeah, you'll just
kind of pick out 10 or 15. Andif you pick out 15 books and
only 2 of them are good, youstart thinking, like, well,
anybody could write this stuff,right? Like, what is this? But
if you just got 15 random piecesof fiction from the bookstore,
if you just pick them up off theshelves, you might
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (06:40):
Have the same experience.
Mac Barnett (06:42):
Yeah, exactly. And you wouldn't be like, the novel
is dead. It's so easy to writethese things. But adults are not
experts in picture books, inchildren's books, or in
childhood, but we are reallyinvolved in the selection of
books for our kids. Right?
It's a very weird thing aboutthis art is that it's, like,
(07:08):
adults writing them,illustrating them, accepting
them for publication, editingthem, designing them, printing
them, reviewing them, making thedecision whether or not to buy
them. And then, finally, afterpassing through, like, scores of
adult hands, we finally get tothe kid that was supposed to be
the reason these books were allbeing made in the first place. I
(07:30):
think that what you hope is thatthe people who make these books
have some sort of directconnection to childhood, whether
that's a direct and accurateaccess, like a vivid connection
to their own childhoods, or theability to connect and really,
(07:51):
like, care for and listen toreal kids
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:55):
Yeah.
Mac Barnett (07:56):
Around them.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:57):
Yeah. I mean, you clearly have that
connection, you know, in yourwork. I can see that in your
writing. Maybe let's justreverse it for a second. Go back
to your own childhood.
And I know you grew up in CastroValley, which is in California,
but I don't know exactly where.It's near where you are now?
Mac Barnett (08:16):
Yeah. It's in the Bay Area. Yeah. It'd be just
Bay.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:19):
So you're like you're a cal you're
Mac Barnett (08:21):
I am a California. California. I am.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:25):
That's it. You know?
Mac Barnett (08:26):
I feel it too. Like, I do feel like I am, like,
100% Californian. Are you
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:30):
sipping on an oat milk latte? Like a
partisan one?
Mac Barnett (08:34):
Right. I'm not gonna beat the oat milk
allegations. But right now, it'sjust black coffee, you know? So
very East Coast morning for me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:42):
And you grew up, it was just you and
your mom? Did you have
Mac Barnett (08:45):
My parents divorced when I was 1, and so I saw my
dad every other weekend. Helived in Oakland, which is also
in the East Bay. But, yeah, itwas, it was me and my mom in a
house in Castro Valley most ofthe time.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:58):
Yeah. What was it like? What was the vibe
of your household?
Mac Barnett (09:02):
I lived very far always from where I went to
school. I lived like 25, 30minutes away from school. So I
spent a lot of time in my house,and it was like a lot of time
with just my mom. We were reallyclose because of that, but also
like if she was going to pay thebills or do anything, like, take
(09:26):
care of yourself, right, like,figure out something to do. I
think I had, like, a prettyvivid imagination, and I did
love books and coming up withstories in my head.
I got good at not just likebeing alone, but really like
enjoying being alone. And then Iwould just spend a lot of time
in my room just sort of likeplaying with my toys, talking to
(09:49):
my stuffed animals, making bigplays, and going on adventures,
pretend adventures with them.And, yeah, I think books were
always they always were such ahuge part of my childhood. I
think my mom was reallydetermined, like, as a single
mom to do it right. And for her,one of those things, like, very
(10:10):
high on the list of those thingswas to have a lot of picture
books around for me.
So she got, like, reading listsof picture books to have, and
then would just go to yard salesand get mostly older picture
books because that's what wasfor sale.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:25):
Was she like a fun storyteller?
Mac Barnett (10:28):
Yes. My mom was really good at reading books out
loud. My mom is really funny, soshe would read to me. And I
think that reading stuff likeJames Marshall, I remember her
just laughing so hard. She's gota wicked sense of humor, a
little bit of a dark sense ofhumor.
(10:48):
And I think that seeing herlaugh at picture books that I
also thought were funny, it wasreally validating. And I was
like, oh, this isn't just, like,something that she's doing for
me. These aren't just, like,only for kids. Like, she's
crying, laughing at this book,and that made it it just made it
(11:11):
cool. Right?
It it was like, wow. This isreal. Like, this actually is
funny.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:17):
Yeah. I'm thinking that I wish my my kids
thought that me thinkingsomething funny would make it
funny now they're older, but I II hear that. And you said you
spent a lot of time alone as akid. Yeah. So did you eventually
find, you know, your people inschool?
Were you were you on your ownthere as well?
Mac Barnett (11:34):
I think I was very much my own world. In middle
school, I, like, I think I wasso in my head that I maybe
didn't realize that I should beangsty. Like like, everybody
loves my French accent that Ido. It's so funny.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:49):
Wait. Is that a real thing?
Mac Barnett (11:51):
Yeah. I would just like I you know, like, I would
just, like, learn all charactersfrom Saturday Night Live. And
Oh, yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (11:56):
I was gonna ask. I'm like, he must like
Saturday Night Live.
Mac Barnett (11:58):
Okay. I did. I loved it growing up, and I would
you know, like, you just haveall these, like, comedy bits.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:04):
Yeah.
Mac Barnett (12:04):
My feeling at the time was that, like, everybody
loves my comedy bits. Butlooking back, I'm not so sure
that that was the case. Highschool was really hard, like 9th
grade was-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:17):
Oh, really?
Mac Barnett (12:18):
Yeah, that's where it hit. I think I got there and
I felt so young. I felt so muchyounger than everybody else
there, including those people Ihad just graduated from 8th
grade with and were at this highschool. Things seemed to change
a lot faster than I was readyfor. For the first 3 months, I
(12:39):
had literally no friends.
I was just so overwhelmed. And Iremember just walking. We had an
activity period, it was like 15minutes long. I just remember I
didn't have anybody to hang outwith. I would just walk the
halls, and, like, there would be3 or 4 clocks that were just
mounted in the wall.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:00):
Clock. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (13:00):
Mhmm. Those big wall clocks. Yeah. And I would
just, like, check the minutes,like, from clock to clock to
until activity period was over.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:09):
Ugh. Yeah. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (13:11):
My first friend that I I I made that year was
Sean, Sean Harris, who I nowmake books with.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:20):
Oh, that is wild. Wait, was he in, he was
just in school with you in highschool when you were together?
Mac Barnett (13:24):
Yeah, he went to the same high school as me, but
also grew up in Castro Valley.And our high school was in
Oakland. So it was like finalsweek of freshman year, 1st
semester. And, like, my finalswere over at 11, and my mom
wasn't gonna be picking me uptill 5. So I need to count
minutes.
Yep. Ready to count it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:41):
I know that walk those walls. I walked those
walls.
Mac Barnett (13:44):
There's a lot of minutes.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:45):
Should have been enough Fitbits or whatever
back then. Or it rings. Okay.
Mac Barnett (13:49):
Totally. So this girl, Kate, was like, oh, like,
you live in Castro Valley.Right? My friend Sean lives in
Castro Valley. Maybe he'll giveyou a ride home.
And I just, like, this guy injust bell bottoms and, like,
some wild shirt. He was, like,wearing 4 articles of clothing
and 9 patterns somehow. It waslike, hey. I'll give you a ride
(14:13):
home, and that was Sean, andYeah. We've been friends ever
since.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:17):
Even as Mac was navigating the high school
years and meeting futurecollaborators, picture books
stuck around in his life, and hegot his first inkling of how
powerful they could be at anyage.
Mac Barnett (14:30):
Like my mom is pretty sentimental and also kind
of a pack rat too, so like, shedoesn't like to get rid of
things. So my she never like You
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:39):
did become a famous author, so now when you
have your archives, all of yourit's gonna be there for people.
Mac Barnett (14:45):
That's true.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:46):
There will be it is all there. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (14:48):
It's true. It's funny that you said that because
my one of my mom's big projectis she calls the archive, which
is her collection of everythingstill ongoing. But, yeah, my
picture books, she never gaveaway. So sort of like the bottom
two shelves of this big bookcasewere picture books. And then the
earliest chapter books, theBeverly Cleary's and Judy Blooms
(15:10):
that I was reading went abovethose, then Lord of the Rings
and so it was sort of like asthe shelves got higher, the
books got you could say older,it's that I got older in terms
of when I was reading them, butI never because the picture
books were always there, I wasalways seeing their spines.
Sometimes I would pull one out.There was never this idea, like,
(15:31):
okay, we've moved past picturebooks. In high school, I started
I was a reading tutor, so Iwould go down to, just as a
volunteer, to the elementaryschool down the hill from my
high school and I would sit andwork on reading with kids who
were struggling to learn toread. And the books that they
(15:52):
had on hand, the Easy Readers,they were so bad. They were so
bad.
And it was really frustratingfor kids and for me too to sit
there and, like, to watch a kidsort of heroically struggle.
Like, I have a very vivid memoryof this happening. I was sitting
next to this kid. He was workingso hard to read the couple
(16:14):
sentences on this page, and hegot through it. And it was so
exciting.
It was sort of a breakthrough ingetting that many words decoded.
And I felt, like, this rush of,like, yes. And he just looked up
at me, and he was like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:28):
That's it?
Mac Barnett (16:28):
That's it. Yeah. This is boring.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:30):
That's the payoff?
Mac Barnett (16:32):
Yeah. And I was like, you're right. Like, this
story is terrible. And it feltlike such a betrayal, and my
elation immediately crashed,where I was like, Man, what a
mess.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:43):
Like,
Mac Barnett (16:43):
of course, we need to make readers accessible and
work on phonics, and like allthese things are, yeah, this is
important to the acquisition ofreading, but we can't forget the
point, at least when it's It'sthe
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:58):
exclusion of entertainment, right?
Mac Barnett (17:00):
Yes, that's right. Because that's wrong too, that,
like, the promise, if youacquire this, you're gonna get
exciting knowledge, entertainingstories, there's joy and
excitement and emotion andpleasure in this. And so at this
time where we're saying to kids,like, learn this skill that's
gonna be really hard, but it'sworth it, And we put a text in
(17:23):
front of them that is reallyhard and is not worth it. Like,
what are we doing? So I justwent back to my picture books,
and I picked the ones that Ifelt like were easiest to read,
but the kind of richest stories,the most exciting, complex,
funniest, or or nuanced stuff.
(17:44):
And I brought those in, and itjust worked so much better.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:49):
You heard Mac say earlier that picture
books are an ambitious art formfor a writer, one that offers a
writer creative possibilitiesthat standard novels don't. But
he also believes that picturebooks are ambitious for the
reader, that to read and tounderstand them at their full
depth requires, to quote therenowned Irish scholar Liam
(18:10):
Neeson, a particular set ofskills. Those skills range, but
some examples might include anunusually keen attention to
visual detail, an ear especiallytuned to new language and
wordplay, an uncommon knack forimmersing oneself in alternate
world building. And while bookcritics and librarians and
(18:31):
reading specialists can work tohone their own abilities,
there's an often underestimatedgroup of people that, as Mac
points out, come to the tablewith the precise set of picture
book specific skills alreadydialed to 10.
Mac Barnett (18:48):
We tend to think of kids as, in so many ways,
inferior to adults, lesssophisticated, more sort of
emotionally unstable, needingguidance, and needing adult
authority. And it is true thatkids do need adults to take care
(19:09):
of them. And in mostcircumstances that children and
adults meet, the adult is anauthority figure, and often
teaching, giving wisdom, settingrules, setting boundaries, and
enforcing them. And I do thinkchildren benefit from that
(19:31):
system, but it also is one thatis very comfortable for adults,
very flattering to adults. And Ithink we get used to it.
I think that we think that thatis the only way for adults and
kids to interact. I thinkliterature, especially picture
books, are a place wherechildren and adults can meet as
(19:53):
equals. And I think that as awriter, I am not ever
approaching this as like, I havewisdom that you don't have or
access to rules that you need toknow about, and so I will make
them palatable by telling themin a story. I think, Oh, I love
telling a story and I lovetelling a story to kids,
(20:15):
especially. And the reason forthat is that I think kids are
actually generally a betteraudience for literary fiction,
for art, for ambitiousstorytelling that asks the
reader to do work.
And a lot of that is just basedon how their brains work and
(20:36):
their place in the world, right?They're more flexible thinkers.
They are expert noticers. Theynotice such small details in the
world around us.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (20:48):
Like try going for a walk with a 3 year
old, you know, around the block.It can take you an hour.
Mac Barnett (20:53):
Yes, and boy, it's humbling too, right, as they
notice as they notice thingsthat are are truly beautiful
that you never would have seen.I have a 3 year old, and and
it's like that every every daywe go outside. He notices
everything. Notices the moon thesecond it's in the sky as soon
as we go out, notices everyairplane, notices small bugs,
(21:17):
drops of dew on a leaf. Andquestions kids ask are the same
questions that artists andwriters sit down and ponder, and
they're the things that we'vebeen wondering about for as long
as we've been making art, andwe've never answered them,
because we won't, right?
(21:38):
What is love? What happens afterwe die? When you're really
young, you're acquiringlanguage. You're so attuned to
the connections between them,right? Like this word, my 3 year
old, at first, you were noticingsounds and words matching,
Right?
It's like, that matches. Andthey'd be 2 very disparate words
in terms of meaning, but hewould find these little
(21:59):
connections between them.Sometimes a rhyme is what he
meant, but sometimes theconnection would be totally like
sonic or lexical, but much muchsmaller than rhyme. And it's
like this is the tool of ofpoetry and any Bellatristic
prose. Right?
Like finding these littleplayful connections between
language. So, yeah, that art ofnoticing, the attention to the
(22:23):
beauty and sort of possibilityof language, the openness to
lots of kinds of storystructures, and just that
ability that kids have to kindof figure out a set of rules
quickly, not the rules of of,like, how to be at a dinner
table, but, like, how this storyworks.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:42):
We're just gonna be okay with these animals
talking, these animals living inanother animal's stomach or
whatever, you know, like, theseare our rules.
Mac Barnett (22:50):
Right. Where it's like, can animals talk? If they
can talk, can people hear them?Do they wear clothes? Do they
wear full clothes?
Or do they wear just someclothes? What happens when an
animal is naked socially? Right?That's a big part of frog
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:04):
and toad. Yes. We
Mac Barnett (23:04):
do. There's a huge story about toad going swimming
that, like, revolves aroundthese very complex rules around,
like, swimming fashion versusskinny dipping if you're an
animal. And it's brilliant, butit's specific only to that
story. Do they have furniture?Do they cook?
Do they eat each other? Like, inthis animal story, would a bear
(23:30):
eat a deer or would they hangout and be friends? We have to
learn all that stuff specific toeach story. Kids learn that
stuff instantly. It's amazing tosee.
You know, I talked about, like,picture books being a place
where adults and kids can meetas equals, but, you know, really
the truth is, it's a place whereoften the kids are doing a
better job than we are. When achild reaches the age of 5, he
(24:00):
is the sum total of all hisyounger experiences and
discoveries in a brand newworld. He carries with him the 2
year old's delight in sheersound and pounding rhythms, and
the glamour of the 2 year old'sown small self. The 3 year old's
humor and love of pattern, andhis pleasure in the familiar
(24:21):
sights of his own world. The 4year old's further joining of
sound and pattern with rhythmand content.
And 4 year old's first playfulflights into the humor of the
incongruous things that he justknows enough to know are not
true. And finally, the 5 yearold's own keen humor and
(24:42):
penetrating observation of theworld around him. The careful
watching of his own eyes andears, the keenness of his nose,
and the sensitiveness of histouch, and the fine and vivid
imagery of his own language.Here, perhaps, is the stage of
rhyme and reason. It iscertainly true that a 5 year old
(25:04):
has a keenness and awarenessthat will probably be displaced
or blunted later.
For the first time, he has thepower of words, to use them and
to hear them, to describe thethings that his 5 year old
senses perceive. He has his feetfirmly enough on the ground now
(25:25):
to go bouncing off on the mosthilarious flights of
imagination, and to sympathizewith, and be curious about
situations not his own. Herethen is a challenging age to
write for.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:42):
That passage is from an essay by
beloved Goodnight Moon authorMargaret Wise Brown called
Writing for 5 Year Olds. Theessay, as you heard from that
excerpt, stresses the importanceof respecting kids' intelligence
and curiosity when writing foryoung readers. And if you think
kids are a less perceptiveaudience than adults, she says,
(26:05):
you've got it exactly backwards,and Mac wholeheartedly agrees.
Mac Barnett (26:12):
I've always loved Margaret Wise Brown. She grew up
wanting to be a poet. That washer plan when she graduated
college. She moved to New YorkCity, was not making money as a
poet, as many poets in New YorkCity don't. And so, thought,
Okay, I'm gonna become ateacher, and that's what I'll do
(26:33):
to make money while I'm workingon poetry.
So she went to the Bank StreetSchool of Education, but
basically they were like, she'sgonna be a terrible teacher, but
she also will just sort of holdthe attention of the entire
class for 30, 45 minutes, anhour, telling them stories,
creating little plays with them,and everybody marveled at this.
(26:55):
It was coming into contact withactual kids, seeing what they
were capable of, and actuallyseeing that the things that they
were so good at were, 1, thethings that we sort of think
about cultivating in ourselvesin order to appreciate art. Like
the connoisseur model of the artappreciator is somebody who,
(27:16):
over years of study, attains theability to understand these
things. And she says, no, like,look at this, these things that
I watch 2 year olds, 3 yearolds, 4 year olds, 5 year olds
do, these are the skills thatyou need to appreciate a poem.
These are the skills you need toappreciate a story.
(27:37):
Here, they have rhyme andreason, both. Then that line is
so heartbreaking about thekeenness that is going to be
displaced or blunted later.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:48):
I know. Yeah.
Mac Barnett (27:49):
This is temporary that kids have this, that for
these kids, as they get older,they're going to lose them, and
that's gonna be adulthood, thatwe're gonna lose these things.
And so maybe what theconnoisseur does is not attain
these things for the first time,but reawaken a certain set of
skills and combine it, ofcourse, with adult experience,
(28:10):
which will, you know, change theart that they like and the way
they think about it. But some ofthe skills, some of those most
important skills that we thinkwe need to develop in order to
understand art or literature areskills that are, if not innate,
they're available to us veryearly, but then we lose them.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:28):
This is like a different version of
everything I learned. EverythingI needed to learn, I learned in
kindergarten or something. Youknow? It's actually, like,
everything I need, I learnedbefore I got to kindergarten is
Mac Barnett (28:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And then her last line that I read
there of just, like, here's achallenging age to write for to
say that, like, the obligationsof the children's writer are are
huge, and in fact, maybe higherthan they are for writing for
adults. That it's really tough.They're tough critics, and they
(28:58):
also, their lives are differentfrom us.
And so the adult must be good atall these things that makes good
writing because children payattention to them, and those
things are things they enjoyabout writing too. And then you
also need to talk aboutchildren's lives and experiences
in a way that is recognizableand authentic to them. If what
(29:19):
you wanna do is make children'sliterature stories for children
and not missives handed downfrom the world of adults and
delivered to the world ofchildren, then it's tough. Okay.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:32):
Okay. I'm starting to feel a little sad
for us adults with our bluntedset of skills and our tendency
to get bogged down and impartinglessons. The problem, of course,
is that we've got too many yearsanchored in the rules of the
real world. We've lost the habitof imagining other realities.
(29:53):
And the willingness to suspendour disbelief is a harder
intellectual battle than when wewere kids, and things like Santa
and monsters were still a partof our landscape.
Because of this, Mack believesthat kids are better recipients
for a complex literary form thatuses imagination and immersion
as 2 of its essential elements.
Mac Barnett (30:15):
That phrase comes from Coleridge from an essay
that he he talked about, like,the reader having the willing
suspension of disbelief and thatmaking a poem or a story or an
artwork, you need to do that asa reader in order to truly
experience it. Right? To saylike, alright, I would give
(30:36):
myself over to the world of thisstory, and I'm gonna, like, live
inside it and feel these things.It's a beautiful phrase, but
also like something that feelslike the same phrase that kids
say all the time is makebelieve, right? Willing
suspension of disbelief.
The way that Coleridge framesit, we are not being duped. The
artwork isn't tricking you intodoing it. You willingly suspend
(30:59):
this. Same thing for makebelieve. Like, we make ourselves
believe.
We're gonna make believe thatwe're a family. We're gonna make
believe this is a fort. And thatis just so fundamental to the
way kids operate in the world.Right? They will just go into
make believe just while you'remaking dinner.
They will go into make believein the car. They will go into
(31:21):
make believe when you're at afancy restaurant. And all of
these conditions that, like, theadult author is, like, trying
to, like, coax the reader intothe willing suspension of
disbelief, kids are like, let'smake believe.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:34):
Let's do it. They're ready.
Mac Barnett (31:35):
Yeah. And so you can go farther faster with them
than you can with adults.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:47):
Mac happened to have a story handy,
and it's a pretty funny one,about an experience he had with
a kid when he was their campcounselor. It really exemplifies
this willingness to suspendtheir disbelief.
Mac Barnett (31:59):
I was telling a story. It was autobiographical,
like, the story I was telling tomy campers. It's like, oh,
here's what happened to me lastweek. And I just gotten to this
part where, like, I jumped off apirate ship that was exploding,
and then had been washed up onthis island, and then a jaguar
attacked me. And this one kidstarted shaking his head and he
(32:21):
was like, Nope, Nope.
A jaguar did not attack you. Andeverything else he was in, like
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (32:29):
You were on a pirate ship, but this was for
sure.
Mac Barnett (32:31):
The pirate ship, the explosion, the tidal wave
generated by the explosion, buta jaguar did not attack you.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (32:38):
One bridge too far? Yeah. And I
Mac Barnett (32:41):
was, like, yes. A jaguar attacked me. And he's,
like, prove it. I was, like,alright. I'll prove it tomorrow.
And so I just I went home and Ihad an old t shirt and I just,
like, ripped it up. And then Ibrought it in the next day, and
I was like, this is the shirtthat I was wearing when the
jaguar attacked me. And he toreit up with his claws and teeth.
(33:01):
And the kid was like, alright.Alright.
Alright. That seems legit. Thatchecks out. And he just needed
that little bit of extra tobelieve. Right?
We want to. And we Obviously,what yes. Yeah. That's right.
And, like, that is the job ofthe writer of fiction is to sort
of create the conditions thatare necessary for you to
(33:21):
willingly suspend yourdisbelief, to make believe.
And for whatever reason, he hadto hang up on the jaguar thing.
And so I needed, as a writer, tocome up with, like, another way
to support that so he couldcontinue being invested in the
story the way that he wanted tobe too, the way that we were
enjoying in this spirit of play.And I don't have a a ripped up t
shirt when I'm making a picturebook or but you do have this
(33:48):
tools of a writer. Those are allthe tools of a writer. Right?
That's humor, that's sentenceconstruction, that's pacing,
that's those are all thewriter's tools are basically
like that drawer of ripped up tshirts that you you parade out
in order to create conditionsfor a reader to give themselves
over to the story.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (34:08):
All of those writer's tools, of course,
work best when they're pairedwith great illustrations, and
Mack has collaborated with awho's who of contemporary
illustrators, from ChristianRobinson to Carson Ellis to Adam
Rex to Marla Frazee to hisfrequent partner and guest of
this podcast, Jon Claassen. Iwondered whether his audience
tended to give more recognitionto the artist rather than the
(34:32):
writer.
Mac Barnett (34:33):
I do think that there actually is something to
that. It's funny. I think thatinvisibility that you have as a
as a picture book writer, it'sreal. I think that your primary
experience with a picture bookis visual. And so when you have
somebody like James Marshall orJohn Clawson, as a reader, you
just recognize those characters,that art style.
(34:54):
And it's an emotional response.It's a world that you're gonna
spend time in and the words,they're not like subsumed into
that, but it is in primary. AndI think that actually, like, it
can be very liberating for awriter too.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (35:09):
Yeah. Yeah. I could see that actually. And
do you feel like you have tokinda stay out of the artist's
way? I guess, how do you findthe balance of not writing too
much?
Mac Barnett (35:18):
It's weird. Like, the act of writing picture books
is so much about leaving spacesbecause I'm also trying to leave
space for the illustrator too.So it really does feel like
you're like building this thingwith lots of holes and gaps in
it. It's just so fundamental tolike the way my brain works when
(35:39):
I'm in a picture bookmanuscript. You're supposed to
be a shirker as a picture bookwriter.
You're always looking for thingsthat you don't have to say. What
don't I have to describe? Whatdon't I want to tell you happen?
And it's up to the storytellerhow much goes in and how much is
left out. But if you get thecombination right, you can leave
(36:03):
these places of ambiguity orthese unsaid, unspoken, maybe
undescribable things, and thereader will feel compelled or
empowered or excited aboutfiguring out what it means.
And to do that, they'll bringtheir own intelligence and their
own experience to the story andmake an interpretation specific
(36:24):
to them. Kids are so good atputting themselves in those
spaces, both mentally, evenphysically, like the way kids
interact with the world. Like,small kids will crawl into, you
know, underneath any couch orkind of go under the table at a
restaurant. My son would find,like, the smallest little
(36:46):
alleyway between the edge of apiece of furniture and the wall
it was against, and he wouldsqueeze himself into a shimmy
in, and then he would call it,he still does it, but when he
first started doing it, he wouldcall all these little tiny
things that he went into houses.He would say, I'm in a house.
This is a house. And I was like,this is it. Like, the fact that
(37:06):
they find these small spaces andthey make them capacious enough,
they see them as a house thatthey can live in, that they can
put their entire selves, theirentire physical and emotional
lives into. We do the same thingas writers. We create these
little cracks, these littlecrevices, these little spaces in
between the things that we say,and kids will put themselves
(37:31):
into those little spaces andmake a house there.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (37:34):
Oh, I love that visual. It's so true. And,
I mean, you can really sensethat you you have not lost touch
with that excitement aboutwriting or just about, like,
picture books. You know?
Mac Barnett (37:44):
This is an art form that is less than a 100 years
old. It's new. We're stillfiguring out what it can do, and
that feels really exciting too.I sometimes feel just like the
joy of running around a forestand finding new creeks and
(38:05):
boulders and just like, I can'tbelieve that. I didn't know that
existed before.
Like, that's what it feels liketo make picture books.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (38:13):
Well, listeners, I have a Mac in my
life too. Well, a Malcolm whosometimes goes by Mac. It's my
nephew who's 5 years old and thecutest, and he adores Mac's
Circle Square and Triangle Booksand the new, related TV show,
Shape Island. So, of course, Ihad to let my Mac ask a
(38:34):
question.
Mari Martinez (38:35):
Are you really afraid of dodotic triangles?
Mac Barnett (38:39):
Oh, good question. No. I'm not afraid of the dark,
but I am afraid. And JohnClawson is afraid of snakes,
which is the other fear in thebook. But, John and I are both
really afraid of snakes.
I think I was afraid of the darkas a kid. I had a nightlight. I
remember that. But I'm no longerafraid of the dark, but I am
(39:02):
really afraid of snakes.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (39:08):
With Mac's lifelong love and dedication to
picture books, it's no surprisethat his reading challenge is
all about them. He's curated alist of books designed to get
you to appreciate them on awhole new level, just like his
mom did for him.
Mac Barnett (39:22):
One of the the first lines that I say in in
that proclamation that westarted on and went so far from,
is is that picture books are aform, not a genre. Right?
They're a way of tellingstories, but they're unbound by
any set of conventions. Theydon't have to work a certain
way. And I think that we all canthink of picture books kind of
(39:44):
being all arrayed around, veryspecific bull's eye that we
don't even need to be aimingfor.
Right? We think about them.Maybe having animal characters
teaching a lesson, being sweet,upbeat, and comforting. And they
can be so many other things. Andand reading widely in picture
books, you will see thisquickly, but I just put together
a list of some that I think showsome of quickly, but I just put
together a list of some that Ithink show some of the
(40:05):
possibilities of the picturebook.
This is not an exhaustive list.And, again, we haven't even
figured out all of the picturebooks possible. It's like a
tasting, a flight.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (40:12):
A taste. A sound. Yeah. That's
Mac Barnett (40:15):
exactly right.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (40:17):
Okay. Do you wanna how about just let's
name the books on the list.
Mac Barnett (40:20):
Perfect. Dead Bird by Margaret Weisbroyn,
illustrated by Remy Charlotte.The Dead Bird by Margaret Wise
Brown, illustrated by ChristianRobinson. Yeah. Okay.
And you'll see how much a storycan change in its meaning and
and even what the story is. Thesame manuscript and 2 different
(40:44):
illustrators. The Skull by JohnClawson. Do Is Talk by Carson
Ellis. Shortcut by Donald Crews.
Kuma Kuma chan by KazuTakahashi. Anno's Counting Book
by Mitsumata Anno. Mirror bySusie Lee. The Stinky Cheese Man
(41:09):
by John Scheska and Lane Smith,Rotten Island by William Steig,
Votes for Papa by JessicaBagley, and Guess Again by me
and illustrated by Adam Rex.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (41:26):
You can find Mac's reading challenge and
all past reading challenges atthe reading culture pod dot com.
This episode's Beanstackfeatured librarian is Mari
Martinez, an assistant managerand librarian at Broward County
Library. She tells us why shesees the library as a secret
(41:47):
buffet.
Mari Martinez (41:48):
This is something that I help grown ups and other
educators when they are alsonavigating the process of
showing the kids the collectionand how to find their perfect
book. I always tell them thelibrary's like a buffet. There's
a lot of books, a lot of dishes,and you're going to be tasting.
(42:09):
Some things will look appealingand and you're gonna try it, and
maybe you don't like it. Andthat's okay.
Move on to the next dish. Maybethe family that's coming behind
you will love it. Maybe the dishyou liked, another family didn't
like it. And so it's like abuffet, and you get to try and
choose, and you know what's thebest thing that's free.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (42:29):
And it's all you can eat. It's a great a
great metaphor.
Mari Martinez (42:32):
And if we don't have it because another reader
borrow it, we have other 37branches that we can get you the
book from. And we do interinterlibrary loans. So even if
the county doesn't have a book,we're gonna get it for you. I
just want I always tell them Iwant books in the handsome
people rather than on theshelves. So I always make that
connection of I am here to helpyou, and I'm gonna show you how
(42:56):
we organize things because itcould be overwhelming at first,
but you'll see that the more youtry it, the more you come, and
the more you bring your child,the easier it's gonna be.
Then it will be a problem of toomany books so little times.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (43:14):
This has been The Reading Culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with Mac Barnett.
Again, I'm your host, JordanLloyd Bookie, and currently I'm
reading The Message by Ta NehisiCoates and Furia by Chamile
Saeed Mendez. If you've enjoyedtoday's episode, please show
some love and give us a 5 starreview. It just takes a moment
(43:35):
and it really, really helps.This episode was produced by
Jackie Lamport and Lower StreetMedia and script edited by
Josiah Lamberto Egan.
To learn more about how you canhelp grow your community's
greeting culture, please checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com. And remember tosign up for our newsletter at
the reading culturepod.comforward/newsletter for
(43:57):
special offers and bonuscontent. Thanks for listening,
and keep reading.
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