Touched for the Very First Time: Soman Chainani on Books That Turn Scrollers into Readers

Episode Transcript
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Soman Chainani (00:04):
I tell kids books are not there to torment
you. You go to the library, yougive it 10 pages. That's it. The
author has to get you in thefirst ten pages. If they do not,
they fail.
Because a book is like alawnmower, like you pull it and
like either it starts or itdoesn't start.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:21):
Reading isn't supposed to feel like a
chore, but for a lot of kids,that's exactly what it becomes.
Something assigned, somethingpoliced, something that drains
the joy out of stories. SomanShanani doesn't think it has to
be that way. He believes theonly thing that really matters
is that kids want to keepreading.

I think it's important for us to give them
stuff at their level thatactually satisfies the itches
and urges and thoughts andsecrets and fantasies and
desires they have. Every timeyou find a book that does it for
you, it really is like fallingin love all over again, you
know. And so enjoy that feelingand nurture it. But first, you
have to help kids fall in love.

Soman Chunani is a New York Times
bestselling author whose Schoolfor Good and Evil series has
sold more than 3,000,000 copies,been translated into over 30
languages, and was adapted intoa Netflix film. He's also the
author of Beasts and Beauty,Dangerous Tales, and of Coven.
All of his stories blendfantasy, humor, and big messy

(01:25):
questions about what it means tobe good. Mission is simple, to
make reading feel irresistible.In this episode, Sowman shares
the books that first thrilledhim as a kid and how they shaped
his belief that stories shouldbe bold, even a little
dangerous.
He unpacks his complicatedrelationship with fairy tales

(01:46):
and how we can meet kids wherethey really are and not where we
think they should be. He alsoexplains why stirring up a
little controversy doesn't scarehim and that if it gets people
talking, it would only helpfulfill his childhood dream of
being Madonna. And finally, isyour young daughter checking out

(02:06):
hardcore porn disguised as acute rom com bestseller?
Honestly, she might be, andSolman's got more on that later
in the episode. My name isJordan Lloyd Bookie, and this is
the reading culture, a showwhere we speak with diverse
authors about ways to build astronger culture of reading in
our communities.
We dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.

(02:30):
Our show is made possible byBeadstack, the leading solution
for motivating students to readmore. Learn more at
Beadstack.com, and make sure tocheck us out on Instagram at the
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(02:51):
Alright. On to the show.
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(03:35):
to turn the page? VisitBeanstack.com to learn more. K.
Sohman, let's get started. Firstoff, you grew up in Florida in
Key Biscayne. Is that right?

Key Biscayne.

Where I've been Really? I met Bud Collins
and Key Biscayne.

Oh my god. I love Bud. Bud Collins, like, was
a legend. Oh my goodness.

I played tennis as well when I was
younger. If I had dad, we wouldgo to, like, South Florida.

Okay. Okay.

My dad and I went to that. But I forget
what the tournament is. It'sthere.

Yeah. It had many names over the years. Yeah.
It was just to the players whowas known as Cubist game. Yeah.

And your family immigrated to Florida.
Right?

My dad was. My grandparents were. My dad was.
And then my mom is Indian, butshe was born in New York.

Uh-huh.

My grandfather wanted to go into real estate,
and Florida kinda had the bestopportunities. So he moved to I
think he moved originally toOcala, Florida, where they were
the first Indians from Indiathat anyone in Florida had ever
seen. In fact, their streets arenamed after them and everything.

Shut up. Really?

Because no one had ever seen

How bold.

Indians. Like, they had seen black. They had
seen white.

But they just felt compelled even as new
immigrants to this country tomove.

I think he just saw opportunity or he had heard
tips and stuff, and he had oneaccent. So, normally, you'd be
discriminated against. Right?You come with a new skin color,
new culture, and and it's betterthan America. Oh my god.
Instantly. But the one thing hehad that was an advantage is he
had my grandmother, his wife,who was the most glamorous,
like, gorgeous woman in theworld. So they met her and

(05:09):
thought she was, like, aprincess. Yeah. Everyone was
inviting her to her things.
And what he did when he firstmoved to Florida and first moved
to town is the first thing hedid when he got there is he
threw a party, and he invitedeverybody. Like, the mayor, he
invited whatever, therepresentative, whatever,
everything. And he was so boldin throwing this party that
everyone just assumed. Andhaving seen his wife, they

(05:31):
assumed that he must be royalty.And so that's how it started.
And then, eventually, they wentto Gibascaine and did real
estate down there. So just, youknow again, storytelling. Right?
The story of he had no money,nothing going on, but he had a
beautiful wife who convincedeveryone otherwise.

What an interesting I think it that's
like it's an atypical immigrantstory.

Oh, totally. Completely atypical, and also
she became the big influence inmy life. Mhmm. I wrote a story
in this book called FlyingLessons about her. So my
grandmother, you know, it wasn'tjust her glamour then.
It was she stayed glamorousforever. And she and I had the
same birthday, and we wereactually quite similar. And so I
feel like she's in every one ofmy books somewhere because she

(06:14):
was so amazing. The first lineof flying lessons is it's a
short story in this collection,and it's, you know, Nani wears a
fur coat to the beach, which shedid when she took me to Spain.
Uh-huh.
And the stories about how shetook me to Spain, left me on a
on a nude beach in Spain at 10years old, and then pranced off
in high heels and a fur coat togo shopping and get her hair

(06:35):
done. She was gonna leave me forthree hours. I remember calling
her out and being like and thisisn't the story too. Was like,
grandma. And she turns around.
She's like, what? You know,clearly annoyed that I'm
resisting her plan. And I waslike, everybody on this beach is
naked. And she I don't think sheknew. I don't think she had paid
attention.
And then she was caught, and sherealized, like, her whole day

(06:56):
was about to be screwed. So Iremember she, like, had these
giant sunglasses on. She loweredthem, and she looked around, and
literally, everybody's naked.And then she just she's like, I
don't see anything and left. Andso that was one of many stories.
I mean, so many. Phoebe, myeditor for Young World and the
very first school for Good andEvil, has been, for the last ten

(07:18):
years being like, when are youdoing the grandmother book? You
know? At some definitely at somepoint.

Yeah. Exactly. It sounds like that's
in you somewhere. Yeah. In manyways, Solman's family story
didn't follow the typicalimmigrant script.
On the other hand, in some ways,he fit the stereotype perfectly.
He was a high achiever inschool, played competitive
tennis, and excelled in all theways that made adults nod with

(07:43):
approval.

The thing was, like, I didn't fit in into the
culture I was in. It was Miami.It was party culture. Everyone
was

Mhmm.

The school I went to was pretty much all
white. And so I didn't feel likeI fit in, so I had to find those
things where I felt safe andthen try to excel at them so
much that it would make me feellike I had worth in the world to
overcome that absolute feelingof, like, not fitting in
anywhere. So that's why, like, Iworked so hard at school, and

(08:21):
that's why the tennis court wasso safe for me. But I was still,
like, I I don't know. I neverfelt, like, comfortable.
You know? If I was good atstuff, it was within the
boundaries of safe places forme, but I don't think I ever
felt, like, at home in my ownskin until much later in life. I

(08:43):
always think that anyone whogrew up gay pre

Yeah.

Like, five years ago

Basically.

Comes with some extra layer of fear slash self
consciousness slash

Yeah.

That anyone who claims they're, like, a fully
realized, self adjusted, %healed gay or lesbian person, I
don't feel like that's possiblegiven what we grew up with.
There's always stuff that youhave to be working on.

Yeah. These are such good points. It all
makes sense. And I guess thatin, like, Key Biscayne or Miami,
at that time, was not a perfectfit for you in those years.
Yeah?

I found Miami such a deeply unintellectual
place because I read books. Icared about homework. Like,
Miami just was not a town forreading and, you know, deep
thought, at least growing up.But, you know, my family just
maybe it was a prototypical, youknow, Indian, Asian family. We
were expected to entertainourselves with books all the

(09:37):
time.
It was just part of life. WhatI'm really grateful for is my
parents didn't police what weread at all. Like, it was very
much like, take you to thebookstore, whatever you wanna
get. There was no suggestions.There was no denials.
So I think I just learned tojust go entirely based on taste.
I never had this feeling ofjudgment. Like, this is what my

(10:00):
parents consider a good book, orthis is what teachers consider a
good book. It was like, what doI like? Because no one
interfered with that.
And I think that was was verylucky.

For better or for worse. They weren't like,
good. It's a chapter book orgood. It's this. It's good.
They just wanted you to read.

They just did not care. And it was a different
era. You didn't have You. Youdidn't have Yeah. You know, a
lot of stuff.
But I think it's what allowed methen to become a better and
better reader because I wasstarting to want stuff that was
more advanced. I was secretlycraving just, like, kind of the
messy stuff. You know?

Yeah.

By eleven, I was reading Anne Rice. And I mean

Like, with a vampire?

Oh, interview with a vampire was, like, my
awakening, I think.

Uh-huh.

That was the first time I had read a book.

When you were 11?

When I was 11.

Amazing.

I remember my mom coming and read I was
reading some of Anne Rice'sreally intense stuff when I was
told in 13. Yes. And she'd comein, and I would just see her
look at me and be like

That's some sexy writing for 11 year old.

She would just be like, what are you reading?
And I'm just like, it's fine.It's fine. And I would just see
her leave. Like, if it was amovie, she would have
intervened.
I think with books, it was thisfeeling of they're reading.
They're in their room. He'senjoying himself. Like, just,
like, you know, leave themalone. Yeah.
But I think what I came toassociate reading with was

(11:17):
something about her languagespecifically that was so sensual
and tactile Mhmm. Where you feltlike you were so immersed. And I
think that became my thing I waslooking for. Like, could it
transport me that fully?

Yeah.

And so I think she was really the start. I was
also reading a lot of MichaelCrichton at the same time, you
know, because

Those are also, like, fully transporting
you to different places. Yeah.

Yeah. And just good hooks. And I was always
looking for the best story orsomething that was just, like,
kind of boundary pushing

Mhmm.

Where I was always like, woah. So the Anne
Rice, Michael Crankton, I wasreading a lot of thrillers. I
often would just I think this isthe advantage of being a younger
brother is seeing kind of whatmy older brother was reading.

Mhmm.

And then, you know, sort of picking up on
whatever I I saw of his thatlooked good.

You're the middle of three brothers. Is
that right?

Middle of three.

Okay. That middle child.

%. You can always speak through and and do
everything. You know? And it'sfunny because, like, now when
I'm writing, you can't changewho you are as a writer. It just
is baked into your DNA.
And I grew up obsessed with bothMadonna and and Rice at the same
time, and I feel like they werequite similar and that they were
always trying to, like, find theline of, like, what was popular,

(12:38):
commercial, sexy, interesting,and also got to our deeper
anxieties and taboos and thingslike that.

Yeah. The taboos.

And I think deep down, I always thought, to me,
that is most useful in your lifebetween the ages of, like, 11
and 14 to have that that kind ofmoment, that tension, you know,
whether it was with Madonna inmusic, whether was Anne Rice and
books. And so I think when Ibecame a writer, I remember, you
know, telling my agent beinglike, I kinda wanna be the

(13:09):
Madonna of middle grade.

You are kinda the Madonna of middle
grade.

Come in and kind of break all the rules and cause
problems and create the goodkind of trouble. And, yeah, I'm
sure, you know, teachers andlibrarians will, at first, be
taken aback, but eventually, youknow, we'll win them over. In
the center of the room, clampedto an upright easel, stood the

(13:34):
full length portrait of a youngman of extraordinary personal
beauty. And in front of it, somelittle distance away, was
sitting the artist himself,Basil Hawward, whose sudden
disappearance some years agocaused, at the time, such public
excitement and gave rise to somany strange conjectures. As the
painter looked at the graciousand calmly form he had so
skillfully mirrored in his art,a smile of pleasure passed

(13:56):
across his face and seemed tolinger there.
But he suddenly started up andclosing his eyes, placed his
fingers upon the lids as thoughhe had sought him prison within
his brain some curious dreamfrom which he feared he might
awake. It's your best work,Basil, the best thing you have
ever done, said lord Henrylanguidly. You must certainly
send it next year to theGrosvenor. The academy is too

(14:17):
large and too vulgar. Whenever Ihave gone there, there have been
either so many people that Ihave not been able to see the
pictures, which was dreadful, orso many pictures that I have not
been able to see the people,which was worse.
The Grosvenor is really the onlyplace. I don't think that shall
send it anywhere, he answered,tossing his head back in that
odd way that used to make hisfriends laugh at him at Oxford.
No. I won't send it anywhere.Lord Henry elevated his eyebrows

(14:39):
and looked at him in amazementthrough the thin blue wreaths of
smoke that curled up in suchfanciful whorls from his heavy
opium tainted cigarette.
Not send it anywhere. My dearfellow, why? Have you any
reason? What odd chaps youpainters are? You do anything in
the world to gain a reputation,and as soon as you have one, you
seem to wanna throw it away.
It is silly of you, for there'sonly one thing in the world
worse than being talked about,and that is not being talked

(15:02):
about. A portrait like thiswould set you above all the
young men in England and makethe old men quite jealous if old
men are ever capable of anyemotion. I know you will laugh
at me, his friend replied, but Ireally can't exhibit it. I have
put too much of myself into it.

That passage is from a book that
Solman read at the ripe age 14.It's Oscar Wilde's The Picture
of Dorian Gray, which tells thestory of a man who trades his
soul to remain young andbeautiful forever, while a
portrait hidden in his atticbears the consequences of those
choices. It's a novel aboutvanity, desire, and the illusion

(15:40):
of innocence. When it was firstpublished in 1890, critics
called it immoral and indecent.Wilde was forced to revise it
and later defend it in court.
Today, it's considered afoundational queer text, one
that refuses to draw clean linesbetween good and evil.

When you're growing up gay, you're always
inventing a personality, and soyou're lying all the time, and
you get used to kind of having abit of a double life.

And

I think you would just end up losing all
faith in who you are. DorianGray, I always loved because it
felt like an example of a novelthat transcended itself and had
found a metaphor that was socomplete for kind of human
nature that it became part ofculture. I knew it hit a nerve
in the same way that I knewinterview with a vampire. It hit

(16:32):
a nerve at some kind of deepthing that made me intrigued by
the book. I think that one,interview with the vampire and
talented mister Ripley, I musthave read within a two year span
of each other.
And that sort of trio spoke verydeeply to me. So I don't think I
had a reaction in that knowingwhat that was. I just know that

(16:54):
something in that world

Mhmm.

Of those three books was like the Venn diagram
of what I would end upresonating with as a human kind
of.

If you had to pinpoint what's going in the
center of that Venn diagram.

Moral grayness. Right? It's it's this idea of,
like, people trying to be goodand believing themselves to be
good humans, but temptation,narcissism, circumstances,
pulling them away from what theyknow is the good moral compass.
So it's this idea of, like, evilas a practical notion. Like,

(17:33):
Dorian is so beautiful that whenhe realizes he has eternal
powers of beauty, he realizes hecan just use them as he wants.
Like, there's no consequence.And so this idea of, like,
having power and being able toexercise it with no
repercussions in the same waythat once Tom Ripley takes on
Dickie's identity and talentedmister Ripley, he's free.

If you

think about it, they're all the same story.
Interview with a Vampire, it'sabout being turned into an
eternal vampire and havingeternal powers. You know? It's
this idea of you can commit evilwith no repercussions. It's
something I think about all thetime, and I think Dostoevsky
asked this question too.
You kill someone, you commit amurder, and you get away with
it. Can you just go about yourlife? You know? Can you just

(18:19):
continue? And then those bigquestions of what is the
conscience worth?
What does it do? So I think allthose books sort of deal with
those things.

The freedom Solman enjoyed as a kid to read
whatever pulled at him shapedthe writer he is today. And
while the books he reached forweren't necessarily written for
children, they spoke to theswirl of feelings that so many
kids carry at that age,curiosity, and fantasy, and
desire.

Everyone is so much more capable than what
adults think they are. And sorather than have them progress
too quickly into the adultworld, which is what is
happening to kids these days

Right.

I think it's important for us to give them
stuff at their level thatactually satisfies the itches
and urges and thoughts andsecrets and fantasies and
desires they have. But you haveto be bold enough to do it and
not pretend it doesn't exist.Otherwise, I guarantee you
they're gonna be surfing theInternet for stuff that is
actually damaging to them.

That is damaging. Right? There have been
times when you've or any of yourbooks when your, like, editor or
whoever has said, no. We shouldreconsider because this feels
like it's, you know, too old.

Oh, every book. Every book. But what ends up
happening is it leads to aproductive conversation because
I just ask why. Like, okay. Soin school freaking evil,
there's, like, multipleinstances of this where one of
them was Sophie ends up inHort's dorm room.

Yeah.

And she locks the bars of the room so no one
can get in because they'retrying to get in and take her
out. And she's like, I'm hereovernight.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so I was told, in a middle grade novel,
you can't have a boy and a girlcohabitate overnight in the same
room, especially when there'sonly one bed. And I was like,
who made that room? And theywere like, it just that's what
it is. So what I did is I said,okay. So then I have Hort say,
you can't be in here.
A boy and girl can't cohabitatein the same room with overnight

(20:18):
with one. And she goes, that's astupid rule idea. I've never
heard of it, and I'm here. SoI'm not leaving.

So You named it.

Yeah. Like, you just name name the role. I'll be
like and you use a character tobe like, this is stupid. So that
happened many times where I'd belike, tell me the role, and I
will happily break it. Peace andbeauty was a different one
because I wanted to write, like,the old style Grimm stories.

Yeah.

And I wanted to be able to write them exactly
like the Grimm stories were,which were they could go
anywhere. They could, you know,be for adults. They could be for
kids. They could be foreverybody. Like, I just wanted
to be able to have totalfreedom.
And I gave up to my editor whowas amazing, and she was like,
oh, boy. Once she read it, she'slike, I don't want you to don't
change anything. She's like, Ijust don't know how we're doing

(21:03):
this. Like, she was trying tofigure out how to convey because
she's like, I think it'sappropriate for 10 and up. I do.
But unless we warn them

Yeah. They'll know what's coming.

They don't you know, they it's gonna be too
shocking. And she was like, ifit's Dana, we could warn them.
And then she was the one who'slike, they're just every single
story in there is just a little,like, a hot potato. It's, like,
dangerous. And then she's like,we could just say, Beast of
Beauty, dangerous tales, andthen no one can complain.
And I was like, let's try it andnever got a word. We had none

(21:34):
you know, it's been won awards.It's been all over the place.
It's been on state reading list,all that stuff. Not a single
complaint.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Interesting. (21:41):
undefined

Yeah. And so what I would learn from that is
you just have to be honest aboutwhat's in there

Mhmm.

And set the audience expectation.

It's funny how that works. If you're
upfront about what a storyholds, people tend to trust you.
And Sohman has learned that youdon't have to water things down
to earn that trust.

I have a my first young adult book coming
out next year.

Oh, yeah. It looks so good. I'm really
excited about that. You wentlike a whole new like, I like

Whole new thing. Yeah. And this one is super
also. So, you know, even inyoung adult, my publisher is
like, oh my god. And I'm like,it's gonna be fine.
And and you can feel the fear.Everyone's like, what? And I'm
like, just relax. It's gonna befine. And I know that because I
test every book with teenagers.
Like, I have young world, thebook is called for next year.

(22:35):
I've had, what, 15 teenagersread it and

Oh, I love it.

Get all their feedback, hear everything they
say. I ask them anything thatmakes you uncomfortable. You
know? So I know it's gonna work.It's just about getting past the
nervousness.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, you seem
to, like, really know andunderstand your audience even
though people on your team mightbe nervous. So no matter what, I
guess, it seems like you'realways writing for them, for the
young people, and not for thegaze of the other adults around
you.

%. And, look, it's the job of publicity,
sales, marketing, all the teamsat a publisher to be nervous.
Right. I mean, they wouldn't bedoing their jobs if they
weren't, you know, to bestressed about especially about
something that's different.Right.
So school for good and evil wasessentially a romance in middle

(23:25):
grade, which did not exist andmade everyone terrified, you
know, when we were putting itout. Luckily, I was at debut,
and they had low expectations,and they printed so few. You
know, like

Surprise.

They were like, okay. You know? Well, here. Good
luck. But, like, you know, I hadspent enough time around 10 and
11 year old girls to know whatTaylor Swift eventually found
out, which is that's that's allthey think about.

The School for Good and Evil is the book
that catapulted Soman into fame,and with it came years of
questions about his thoughts onfairy tales. He's been asked
about them in every wayimaginable. So it's fair that by
now, he's a little fairy tailedout. So when beast and beauty
came out, in many ways, it washis closing statement.

I think in a lot of ways, beast and beauty was
everything I had to say, whichis why I think when I finished
that book, I was like, okay.This is literally like, if
anyone asks how we use fairytales, I'm just like, here.

Go read this book.

Okay. This is my version. But I think what's
interesting is the originalfairy tales, the grim stories,
taught you that good and evilcould be weaponized in in either
direction. The idea that if youthink you're good, that actually
can end up being more evil than,you know, accidental evil and
stuff like that. And my problemwith Disney was always that

(24:46):
Disney always said, okay.
Here's the good guy. We're gonnatell you who the good guy is,
and they're gonna win at the endno matter what. And I think what
it trained people growing up tothink is, oh, you just have to
know who the good character isbecause it's identified. So,
therefore, I'm the goodcharacter in my own life,
clearly. Like, I'm the good guy.
And if I'm the good guy, itdoesn't matter what I do. The

(25:08):
evil person just has to bedestroyed. And that argument is,
I think, what's led to oursituation in this country where
everyone thinks they're the goodguy. Both sides are like you
know, rather than understandingthat things are much more
morally gray. And I thinkEuropean cultures that grew up
with the original fairy taleshave a much more kind of gray

(25:30):
view of things.
Everything is a little morebalanced and nuanced, I think,
because of the stories theylearned growing up. You know? We
learned this whole, like, verycorporate tale of good always
wins and happily ever after it,and that's not what the fairy
tales teach us.

The stories we grow up on shape how we see
the world, who we think ourheroes are, what counts as good
or evil, and whether we evenquestion those things at all.
And now more than ever, kids aresurrounded by stories, but
they're mostly watching them orscrolling past them. What

(26:04):
they're not doing as much isreading them, imagining them,
and making them their own.

I think your imagination becomes a source of
your greatest desire and alsowhat's personal to you. When it
only becomes visual stuff beingbrought in, that's when you're
the most susceptible to havingyour own personal taste warped.
And I think that's the case ofwhat we have now is you have
people's taste so susceptible towhatever is being fed to them,

(26:36):
and I find that a little scary.And what I tell kids, I've done
over 800 school visits. Andbefore, it used to like I said,
it used to be more about tryingto get them to read my book.
Now I really do go into anin-depth thing that I think kind
of scares them sometimes, butthey have to hear it, which is
you have two choices in yourlife. You either can have your
own brain and imagination. Like,you're gonna have to hold on to

(26:58):
it and have it be something thatworks for you and that you're
your own person. Or if you stopreading too early or at all, you
lose it. And for the rest ofyour life, you're being
programmed by other people'simagination.
Mhmm. And you are now a consumerand sort of a slave to other
people's visions. Right? Soyou'll never get your own
version of Harry Potter. You'llnever get your own version of

(27:19):
Percy Jackson, whatever.
You're just gonna watch themovie, and you're never gonna
get the version that was yoursbecause you can only get that by
reading. And it seems hard topick up a book and read it. But
if you only see it aseducational Yeah. Then, of
course, this could be boring,and no one wants to do it. But
if you see it as the one andonly way to, like, truly have a

(27:42):
mirror into what you see, whatis you, then you realize how you
don't have a choice.
You know? And if you look ateverybody you ever admire in
your life, creator, athlete,entrepreneur, anybody that you
admire, I guarantee you, theyall read. The other thing I tell
kids is books are not there totorment you. You go to the
library. You give it 10 pages.

(28:04):
That's it. The author has to getyou in the first ten pages. If
they do not, they failed. Don'tread it. Mhmm.
Find something else. Because abook is like a lawnmower. Like,
you pull it and, like, either itstarts or it doesn't start.

Right.

And so I tell them, I'm like, you don't wanna
read my book? Try the first tenpages. If you wanna keep going,
keep going.

Mhmm.

So I think it's that pressure of, I'll get you
in the first ten pages. Like, Iknow I will because I spend six
months on my first ten pages andthen six months on the rest of
the book.

Is that true?

I spend so much time.

You spend a lot of time writing on those
first just making sure thosefirst ones are, like

Yeah. Over and over, just it has to get you.
And not just with like, if youlook at school for good evil,
there were three chapters that Ideleted before the first chapter
starts because the end of thethree chapters led to that first
line. Sophie had waited all herlife to be kidnapped. My editor
was like, this is my first bookever.
Yeah. She's like, and all thosethree chapters, do you really

(29:01):
need them? I'm like, yes. She'slike, but what if you start
here? And I realized, like, oh,if you start there, who's gonna
put the book down?

Mhmm.

So it was that feeling of learning. And
sometimes what I'll do is justimagine I'm a kind of attention
addled child and just, like,kind of walk around reading my
manuscript on my phone orsomething

Mhmm.

And be like, is it pulling me through?

Because that's how you see kids reading.
Right? They're just skimming.You have to find a way to, like,
every third sentence if they canstring it together.

%. I think that's how we ended up with the
icebreaker phenomenon.

Say more about the icebreaker.

Icebreaker is that book that has, like, a
kid's cover and is actually,like, the most hardcore porn you
can imagine, and it'severywhere.

Yeah. Oh my god. Yes. Tough to talk about
that. But, yes, my daughter camehome.
She was like, you could notbelieve this book. She was
saying some of the lines outloud to me. I'm like, damn. What
are you talking about? And thebus to school.

You know? And they're all reading it. I mean,
they're all reading it. They'reall carrying around. And I
thought it was mildly ingeniousbecause it's this awareness that
everyone's so, like, attentionaddled that if you just sort of
gave teenagers their own, like,50 Shades of Gray and sort of
gave it a cute cover, and maybeno one would notice.

Yeah. It's bubblegum. It's a bubblegum
cover.

It's the most, most X rated thing. And that's
what I was telling you, that ifyou don't give kids what they're
capable of earlier, and they'regonna go for that. And so that's
why anytime the publisher comesback to me with, like, oh, I
don't know if this is on theedge or I'm like, listen.

They're reading, like, graphic novel
porn.

So, know, it's You know, we're so far beyond
that in terms of where we'vescrewed up. So we need to
actually give them the rightlevel of what's going to excite
them and what they can handleand what's they can ask
questions about and all thatstuff, but what's right. To give
them icebreaker, I was like andfrom you know, I look I grew up

(31:01):
on Madonna and and Rice at 12and 13. Like, I'd love to push
boundaries, but Yeah. There'slines.

Yeah. I guess there's also lines of,
like well, first of all, like,what's, like, even just remotely
sort of well written orimaginative or whatever. You
know? And then also just whatis, like, not appealing to your
imagination? What's, like,spelling things out?

Well, it's shock value also in the sense of these
young girls who are readingicebreaker, they don't know.
Like, they can't read it the waywe can read it and be like, none
of this is remotely realisticor, like

Correct.

How it works in the real world in real life.

Right.

They're reading it almost to be shocked, but I
think it does some at least somekind of stain on how they what
they're looking for in in a guyand how they I just think it
causes more problems than itshould, where I think if it's
done correctly, it shouldempower. I think everyone came
out of reading school for goodevil. Even though those those
books do get quite sexy by, youknow, five and six, girls always

(32:04):
felt no matter how much romancewere in those books, the girls
always felt they were in charge.

Yeah. You know? Yes.

They always felt they're and they always felt the
boys were, you know, the damselsin distress in those books.

They are. So your books definitely toe the
line, I'd say, of what somepeople might consider risky to
put in front of the kids or atleast the kids that the books
like, ages they're recommendedfor. So I was wondering if you
ever consider altering yourlanguage, like writing in a
more, quote, coded way where themeaning is clear to some, but

(32:39):
just, like, to avoid runningafoul of the book banners,
basically.

I can't play that way at all. I am very much
in the thing of I'm playing thelong thing. Like, it'll be at
some point, reason will will notand you can try to ban stuff,
but kids are gonna find itanyway. Like, in terms of my
stuff, I don't change it at all.I actually think, to me, like,
if there was an uproar over oneof my books, I would be like it

(33:05):
would tap into that thing ofwanting to be Madonna.
I would be like, oh, I'm Madonnanineteen ninety two. Finally, I
achieved it. Like, it would onlyit would only make me feel
happy. So but, no. I mean, moreseriously.
I just know it would beillegitimate. You know?

I guess I was thinking about it because
there is, like, thisenvironmental message in here
too. You know? But it's, like,it's really couched in, like, a
comp like you said, like, ahorror story. Like so it's
there, but it's also not hidden.But it's also, like, it's a
layer of this story.

Yeah. It's a layer. And right? So, like, any
book can be banned for anyreason. Like, you can make up
stuff.
You can in the covenant, you canbe like, oh, it's about witches.
We have to ban it. Oh, it'sabout environmental stuff and
climate. We have to ban it.

Yeah.

Right? Like, you can come from any angle, any
side. You can do it with anybook on earth. So you just can't
feed into all that because 99%of the time, they're super
transparent in their objectivesand motives.

By now, it's probably clear that Soman
doesn't believe in diluting thekinds of stories that kids get.
And he knows that the realchallenge today isn't about
shielding them from too much.It's just about getting them to
pick up a book in the firstplace.

So the thing that I think is important with
kids early is to find a bookthat hooks them for real, where
they don't wanna stop. And oncethey have that feeling, be like,
listen. That feeling that youhad with this book has to be
with any book that you wannafinish Mhmm. Or, you know, at

(34:41):
least keep you reading. So ifyou don't feel that feeling,
keep looking.
Right? And give them the freedomto understand that when they
hook into a book, it's sooverwhelming, like the way I am
with PlayWorld. It's so, like,deep, and I needed the reminder
too of, okay. This is what itshould feel like. It just is so

(35:03):
elemental to who we are.
And a a good book is even morethan a series because it's so
personal the way that you readit. So I think it's about there
should be some kind of thingwhere you're helping a kid learn
for the first time what it'slike to be hooked by a book once
they're able to read. So I thinkthat's the thing. You know?

(35:25):
Because I had many readers overthe years, especially because
school for evil was so romancebased.
It was the first time a lot ofthese girls had read romance in
a book. And their parents wouldcome to me, and they're like,
they won't read anything else.Yeah. Like, they just read it
over and over again, and theykeep being like, I want
something like this. And I'mlike, it's not that they want
something like that.
They want the feeling that thatbook gives them. And you can

(35:48):
tell them it's okay to look forsomething else. And when they
find that feeling, it'll begreat. But to look for that
feeling again.

Don't judge the feeling.

No. Don't

comment on the feeling.

No. The feeling is yeah. That's it. It's like
falling in love. Like, everytime you find a book that does
it for you, it really is likefalling in love all over again.
Yeah. And so enjoy that feelingand and nurture it. But first,
have to help kids fall in love.

When Somen sets out to write a new book, he
starts by thinking about thekind of stories that have
consumed him completely. Theones where the writing is so
immersive, so emotionally richthat the edges of the real world
start to blur. So for hisreading challenge for adults,
contemporary immersive reads, hehas curated a list of books that

(36:37):
achieve just that.

So the ones I was thinking of were A Little
Life by Hanya Yanagihara, whichis like

Oh, I love that book so much.

Cold thing that a few people had read. I had it
in hardcover. Mhmm. And I mean,I was just passing it around
right and left. Donna Tartt'sThe Secret History Yeah.
Really is another one where it'sso inhabited that you're just in
that world. You just disappear.And then the third one is one
I'm reading now, which I thinkshould win everything this year.

(37:07):
It's called Play World by AdamRoss. If it doesn't win the
National Book Award, I'm gonnalose my temper.

You can find Soman's reading challenge
and all past reading challengesat the readingculturepod.com.
And this week's Beanstackfeatured librarian is Jasmine
Haverly, a second year librarianfrom Aldine Independent School
District in Texas. Jasmineshares how competitions and book

(37:34):
tastings are growing the readingculture in her library.

Jasmine Haverly (37:38):
Everything is like, you know what? We can we
can do we can one of you guys, Icould do it better. So what I've
been using is Beanstack, and Ihave different classes going
against each other. We mostlyuse it by minutes. Students
really get into it, who'swinning?
We have to win. So that's mybiggest, getting them to read,
you know? Actually helping themfind that great fit too. Because

(38:02):
sometimes, they'll just checkout a book just because it's
pretty on the outside. I'm like,no, guys.
Like, let's let's do a booktasting. Let's let's open it up.
Read it, read a few pages, andthen you decide if this is a
good book or not.

This has been The Reading Culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with. Soman
Chanani. Again, I'm your host,Jordan Lloyd Bookie, and
currently, I'm reading DreamCount by Chimamanda Ngoze
Adichie and Graciela in theAbyss by Meg Medina. If you
enjoyed today's episode, pleasetake one minute to give us five

(38:41):
stars on Apple or wherever youlisten. Your reviews really help
the show get recommended toothers, so thank you for doing
that.
This episode was produced by MelWebb and Lower Street Media and
a script edited by JosiahLamberto Egan. To learn more
about how you can help grow yourcommunity's reading culture,
please check out all of ourresources at Beanstack.com, and

(39:03):
remember to sign up for ournewsletter at
thereadingculturepod.com forwardslash newsletter for special
offers and bonus content. Thanksfor listening, and keep reading.

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