August 20, 2025 • 34 mins
“Whenever I think of people who have gone through something, I'm always like, but they were human before this. Before they were monsters, they were human. Before they were zombies, they were human.” — Tiffany D. Jackson
Some of the most unsettling monsters don’t come from nightmares or ghost stories. They walk among us in daylight, smiling widely and blending in. They can be shaped by our environments, our circumstances, or people’s choices—and in stories, as in life, they challenge us to look closer and see the human before the horror.
Tiffany D. Jackson is the New York Times bestselling author of Allegedly, The Weight of Blood, Blood in the Water, and many more. She received of the Margaret E. Edwards Award, honoring her significant and lasting contribution to teen literature. She blends real-world horrors with the sharp tension of a thriller, always keeping our emotions and nerves on edge!
In this episode, Tiffany shares how her own encounters with “unintentional monsters” have shaped her writing. She opens up about how growing up between Brooklyn and Westchester sharpened her view of the world and the people in it. Tiffany also talks about finding her voice in film school, why stories like Monday’s Not Coming are drawn from real-life cases, and how fiction is her way of building empathy where the headlines fall short. Buckle up for a gripping episode from Tiffany’s very first anecdote about a childhood horror.
***
Tiffany’s reading challenge celebrates African-American horrors and thrillers, genres she’s been questioned for writing.
Peruse selected titles and Tiffany’s full reading challenge for free at thereadingculturepod.com/tiffany-d-jackson
This week's Beanstack Featured Librarian is once again Kelly Shelton, an elementary librarian for Garland ISD in Garland, Texas. She shares how building a strong reading culture goes beyond the library—into the hallways, the bus line, and even your students' plays!
Show Chapters
Chapter 1: Unintentional Monsters
Chapter 2: Take Me Back to Brooklyn
Chapter 3: What Happened to You?
Chapter 4: A Safe Harbor
Chapter 5: Their Eyes Were Watching God
Chapter 6: Core Memories
Chapter 7: Reading Challenge
Chapter 8: Beanstack Featured Librarian
Links
- The Reading Culture
- The Reading Culture Newsletter Signup
- Follow The Reading Culture on Instagram (for giveaways and bonus content)
- Tiffany D. Jackson
- Tiffany D. Jackson Instagram
- Their Eyes Were Watching God
- Sister Souljah
- Lockdown TV Series
- Beanstack resources to build your community’s reading culture
- Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Host and Production Credits
Host: Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Producers: Mel Webb and Lower Street Media
Script Editors: Josia Lamberto-Egan, Mel Webb, Jordan Lloyd Bookey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tiffany D. Jackson (00:02):
Whenever I think of people who have gone
through something, I'm alwayslike, but they were a human
before this. Before they were amonster, they were human. Before
they were a zombie, they werehuman.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:12):
What if the real monsters aren't hiding
under the bed, but standing inplain sight, smiling wide? They
show up in classrooms,courtrooms, homes. They blend
in. And for young especially, itcan be hard to name what feels
wrong when no one else seems tosee it. That's where stories,
(00:34):
especially horror and thrillerscan help.
They offer a safe bubble, alittle distance, and a way to
confront the truth without beingconsumed by it. Tiffany d
Jackson writes stories thatdon't flinch. The New York Times
bestselling author of Allegedly,The Weight of Blood, Blood in
the Water and more. She blendsreal world horrors with the
(00:57):
sharp tension of a thriller. Herwork takes on missing black
girls, abuse, addiction, andracism all through narrators who
feel heartbreakingly realbecause they are.
Characters drawn from lives toooften erased, told with twists,
suspense and an emotional punchthat lingers long after the last
(01:18):
page. In this episode, Tiffanyshares how growing up between
Brooklyn and Westchestersharpened her view of the world
and the people in it. She talksabout finding her voice in film
school, why stories likeMonday's Not Coming are drawn
from real life cases, and howfiction is her way of building
empathy where the headlines fallshort. My name is Jordan Lloyd
(01:46):
Bookie, and this is the readingculture. A show where we speak
with diverse authors about waysto build a stronger culture of
reading in our communities.
We dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
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(02:10):
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Hey, listeners. Are you lookingfor a fun, way to track your
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(02:31):
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Okay, Tiffany. We're gonna startin, like, a little different
way. I'm gonna read a passagefrom one of your upcoming books
(03:13):
called The Scammer that hasreally stuck with me ever since
I read it, and it feels likethis theme that runs through a
lot of your work. So here itgoes, beginning a quote.
Everyone knows that monsters arereal.
They don't just live on theoutskirts of our imaginations
with the Tooth Fairy. What wewere never told, never fully
(03:34):
explained is how the monsterscan roam among us, hidden in
plain sight with nice teeth,gorgeous skin, and breathtaking
smiles. How they had the powerto manipulate, the power to
persuade, and the power tosiphon the life out of you. Oh,
so good. And it's just sopowerful.
I think that in particular justmade me wonder, to start if
(03:57):
there was something that younoticed early on in life, but
not everything or everyone iswhat they seem.
Tiffany D. Jackson (04:03):
It's funny that you brought up that quote
because I do oftentimes feellike one of the things about
living in this world is likevillains aren't always very
clear cut. And sometimes thevillain could be your
environment. Sometimes thevillain could be mother nature.
We can see the power mothernature has and the way it just,
like, you know, has completedestruction over everyone. So
(04:24):
it's not specifically a human,but, like, an entity or a thing.
Unintentional monsters. Right? Ifeel like I have found some
unintentional monsters throughjust, like, being a kid, just
being very curious. Right? Like,I always explain that one of my
first experiences of racismhappened when I was probably,
(04:44):
like, nine years old.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (04:46):
Now what happened?
Tiffany D. Jackson (04:47):
So I was at a horseback riding camp. God
bless my mom, you know, becauseI said I really wanted to ride
horses, and she found thisprogram. And I was the only
black girl in there. You know,we had to come all the way from
Brooklyn up into the city and toride these horses. And one of
the things everyone knew is thatyou can't open up the garage
door in the track because itwould scare the horses.
(05:07):
And I remember being in thetrack, you know, kinda with my
instructor kinda, like, doing myrounds, and someone opened the
track door. And the course wentcrazy, and I truly thought I was
going to die. Like, it wasbucking. Eventually, it threw me
off. And I remember, like,getting up and looking over and
seeing, like, a group of whitekids, and they all just kinda
(05:28):
snickering by the actual, like,garage door opener.
And at first, like, I'm nineyears old, so I was kinda like,
well, why did they do that? Thatwas so dumb. And it wasn't until
much later on at night when Iwas by myself where I was like,
oh, they did that on purpose,and this is why. And it was a
very strange feeling for me tobe like, oh, like, they don't
(05:50):
like me because I'm black. Andit may seem so unintentional.
That was a moment where Irealized, like, you know, who I
am in my skin outside of, like,Brooklyn, outside of, like, you
know, my community, like, whatpeople see. And when I say
unintentional monsters, it meansthat when I looked at my
teachers to enforce something,they were just like, oh, it was
(06:11):
an accident. And I don't thinkthey realized what they did
there to, like, a little blackgirl. And to me, it sort of
delved into my mistrust of justteachers in general, like
educate like, people who aresupposed to be on your side.
Like, you can never truly trustthe people that you're around
unless they're, like, yourfamily, your, like, close
friends, and stuff like that.
(06:32):
And I was nine. So then I endedup faking and pretending that,
like, I hated horses after thatbecause I knew if I told my mom
what exactly happened, shewould, like, light the whole
place on fire. That's right. I Ilike Yeah. So I just was like,
oh, horses are stupid.
But I actually really lovedhorses, and I really wanted to
keep on doing that. But I knewthat if my coach wasn't going to
(06:57):
my instructor specificallywasn't going to protect me, and
the people around there wasn'tgonna protect me, and these kids
were just gonna go uncheckedMhmm. That I could honestly
like, something could reallyhappen to me. And I had the
wherewithal to know that, but itwas just so sad because I was
nine.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:12):
Those kids probably don't I don't know. But
probably don't even remember.You know, the the instructor,
like, them, that was just a dayof somebody opened the Yeah.
Yeah. It's so interestingbecause your mom, I'm guessing,
was, like, really trying to,like, give you that exposure and
let you have access to thisYeah.
Thing if you're growing up inBrooklyn and trying to, in fact,
do the opposite. Right?
Tiffany D. Jackson (07:32):
And those lessons weren't cheap. Right.
You know, the time it took,like, you know, to take me on a
Saturday after, like, workingall day, like, that's that's a
lot. And I look back on it nowand think, like, you know, even
if I did say something to herabout it, you know, of course,
after she lit the whole place onfire, she probably still would
have, like, made me try to,like, do it, but it just
(07:53):
wouldn't have been the same tome anymore. It was tainted.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:56):
Tiffany spent her early years in
Brooklyn, but her familyeventually moved to Westchester,
a quiet suburb just outside thecity. And even there, the
monsters continued to makethemselves known.
Tiffany D. Jackson (08:09):
I ended up being one of the maybe four or
five black kids in my entirehigh school, and that was pretty
tough. Like, I wouldn't wishthat on anybody. It was really a
bizarre experience because Iwent from having such, like, a
huge community and being one ofdozens Mhmm. You know, and a
(08:29):
very diverse community inBrooklyn, I should add, to then
constantly having thismicroaggressions, just waves of
microaggressions throughout myentire high school career, and I
hated it so much. Hated everymoment.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:43):
Did your parents try and move there to,
like, good schools for, like,quote good school, or is that
the idea was, like, moving foryou to be or were they moved
there for a different reason? Orwere they moving there for you
to go to high school there?
Tiffany D. Jackson (08:53):
Honestly, the logic, which, you know, it
does sound logical when you putit together, but, you know, they
wanted me to go to a goodschool. And a lot of the good
schools in Brooklyn specificallywere private schools. And the
money it was gonna cost, my mydad was like, we might as well
move, buy a home, and let her goto the public school in a good
community. Mhmm. Not realizingthe sort of, like, detrimental
(09:17):
effects of going into these goodneighborhoods, these good
communities could actually have.
And I have never talked to anyperson of color who's had a good
experience at that high school.So, yes, we got a home. We moved
out of Brooklyn. We had a home,and it was amazing because it
was a home with, like, you know,stairs. I've always wanted a
house with stairs because I, youknow, I I lived in apartments
(09:40):
for my So entire it was justamazing to just have a house
with stairs, like things you seein movies
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (09:45):
To them being like, oh, this is a
nightmare. You know, take usback to the projects. Like, I
would rather do that than livein a nice neighborhood.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:53):
Must've been so hard. Did you end up
making friends or, you know,some friends at the new school,
or did you mostly keep toyourself?
Tiffany D. Jackson (09:59):
So I did have some friends, of course, a
couple of other black kids thatwere in the school. But I, like,
definitely, for the most part,stayed to myself because I
realized, like, I just felt likeI wasn't supposed to be here and
that every, like, waking momentwas towards, like, getting
myself out of this situation,out of Westchester. So a lot of
(10:19):
times, I was, like, in the housereading or writing or working on
something that would eventually,like, help me get out. So, like,
I had the wherewithal to knowthat, like, you know, this
isn't, like, a finaldestination. And if I, like,
stay in the situation, if I payattention to it too much, I
could get stuck here, and Idon't wanna be here.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:36):
To have that foresight as a kid, you
know, as a high schooler, it'swild. And then I guess, like,
hearing about your childhoodabout especially that move to
Westchester, do you think thatexperience is a kind of where
some of the darker, like, morecomplicated themes in your books
originate from? Like, does thator I don't know. Maybe that
(10:56):
traces back to earlier inBrooklyn.
Tiffany D. Jackson (10:59):
People are always like, you know, what
happened to you? I think thatthere have been moments where
you know, New York in thenineties, eighties and nineties
were was incredibly scary. Therewere a lot of scary moments, a
lot of drugs that, you know,infiltrated people's families
and stuff like that. And therewas a lot of time that people
were walking around the streetslooking like zombies. And as a
(11:20):
kid, you're processing thatbecause you don't know what's
going on with them, and you'rejust like, you know, these are
crazy bad people.
But then at one point, I startedto go to AA meetings because,
you know, there were nobabysitters around, and so I was
sort of, you know, I was in AAmeetings with, you know, some of
the adults in my family. Sothere were times where I had
(11:40):
been, you know, in meetings inthe back of the room, and I'm
listening to stories andlistening and understanding
that, you know, oh, wait. Thesearen't zombies. These are human
beings. These are people thatare, like, are in my family, and
they all have stories of howthey even got there.
And so I think, ultimately, itmade me humanize people. And I
(12:03):
ultimately think of that like,whenever I think of people who
have gone through something, I'malways like, but they were a
human before this. Before theywere a monster, they were human.
Before they were a zombie, theywere human. And so that to me, I
guess, in a lot of ways, hasaffected the way I wanted to
tell stories and how people likeme kind of deal with those
(12:24):
family members for whateverreason, and however it happened.
But yeah, that is kind of like,when people are like, what
happened to you? I'm like,nothing happened to me actually.
I was just watching.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:34):
Yes. And paying attention.
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:35):
I was paying attention. Yeah. Mhmm. Nothing
actually happened to me. I had avery good childhood.
Obviously, there's bumps in theroads and that's just the nature
of things.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:43):
Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:44):
But I paid attention to my surroundings.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:48):
It's so interesting to me that your
parents, they left that fortheir obvious reasons, you know,
to try and thinking that thatwas like the
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:55):
Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:56):
Thing, but then to just it's just the irony
of that.
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:58):
I think that's like one of the key
things about my parents is thatthey never hid things from me,
but they definitely didn't letme be like a whole part of it
either.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:07):
Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (13:08):
And I think ultimately that makes me a
better person for it because Inever like shy away from like,
you know, homeless person onlike, you know, subway and stuff
like that because there's areason that they're here.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:19):
Was there like a a safe harbor for you?
Was writing your safe harbor?Like, what was your
Tiffany D. Jackson (13:23):
Oh, yeah. Writing was definitely my safe
harbor. And you know what? Eventhough I hated going to this
school, I think it dideverything for my writing career
because I sort of went inwardand was writing and focused on
just honestly, I just focused ongetting out. So I specifically
remember, and my mother stillhas it, during my freshman year
(13:46):
in high school, I wrote, like, abook by hand.
It was eight five subjectnotebooks. What? Yes. All
written in pencil, doublespaced. Like, I was, like, you
know because I didn't have acomputer, and I wrote this
whole, like, assassin story.
Damn. And I got a d in theclass, and my mother will never
let me forget it because Ididn't pay attention to the
(14:08):
class because I was working onthis novel.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:10):
And were you also a reader or was write I
mean, do those go hand in handfor you?
Tiffany D. Jackson (14:14):
I was definitely a reader. I was
definitely the person whobecause I grew up mostly
reading, Earl Stein and, like,Christopher Pike. I was just
reading all, like, these scarynovels, and then I went sort of
kind of straight to Stephen Kingand straight to, like, the Mary
Higgins Clark and Toni Morrison,Maya Angelou, and, Terry
(14:34):
McMillan. And that's one of thebigger reasons why I do write
thrillers today is because I wasreading all these thrillers and
horror at, like, you know, age11 and 12. Because after I,
like, you know, went through allof basically Aarl Stein's
catalog, there was reallynothing for me.
I had to go straight to adult atthat point. Mhmm. And I wish
there was more of a bridge.Yeah. And that's been, like, my
(14:58):
defining point in my career isto make sure that I, like, have
that bridge for, like because Iknow there's a bunch of mes out
there.
Like, I know there was a bunchof, like, little black girls and
black boys
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:09):
Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (15:09):
Who were reading horror, reading
thrillers, and just sort ofjumping straight into adults.
And, like, it was the only kindof stories that had, like, that
angst and that suspense Yeah.That could really keep my
attention. I do feel that mostof my books will always be that,
like, gap. Like, to fill thatgap that we probably have always
(15:29):
had, just no one noticed it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:31):
Yeah. You're definitely filling that
gap now. Especially since you'rewriting more more middle grade.
Right? Okay.
So those are some of the authorsthat you are drawn to. And what
about any, like are there anycharacters specifically?
Tiffany D. Jackson (15:42):
I often think about the character in the
coldest winter ever, which iswinter. That was a very raw and
gritty book. I didn't read thattill college.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:53):
Side note, the coldest winter ever was a
1999 bestseller by activistSister Solja, a bleak coming of
age story about a wealthy drugdealer's daughter.
Tiffany D. Jackson (16:03):
But what was fascinating to me about this
story was the lesson that wasreally involved. It was very
much a warning, and I don'tthink people picked up on that.
There's a lot of people who,like, loved it because it was
Rhydian gras and it's, like, youknow, what they call it, an
urban fiction tale.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (16:19):
But there were so many lessons layered
into it. And even the author,Sister Soldier, like, writing
herself into the novel Yeah. Andreally giving, like, powerful
speeches, like, full on speechesin the novel. She is really
laying a foundation of a warningthat there was no heroine in
this story. There was no onethat was supposed to, like, make
(16:40):
it to the end, like, you know,get what they actually want.
This was all supposed to be awarning of how society has
placed these type of pressuresand unfortunate circumstances,
not only on black people, butspecifically on black girls. And
I often think about her as acharacter because I I think,
like I said, I think the bookgets a lot of it has a urban
(17:02):
legend behind it in a way.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:04):
It's interesting because it was like
I feel like because of thegrittiness or whatever, like,
you're right. That was like theappeal or like the Yes. Wow or
whatever you wanna call that ofit was that as opposed to the
message of the book maybe.
Tiffany D. Jackson (17:17):
Yeah. It was a very layered story. Mhmm. A
very culturally significantstory, especially for people who
grew up in environments likewinter because I could see it
all. It's almost like a movieI've already seen, but it's
being painted in a differentlight that I can actually see
the elements and how somethinglike this could happen.
Like, lot of times when you livein these type of environments,
(17:38):
you're seeing the end of a storyversus this book really showed
you the prequel.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:44):
During her time at Howard, Tiffany went to
the sister to sister tour andsaw a sister soldier speak on
stage. She was the first authorTiffany ever met, and their
meeting suddenly andunexpectedly became a life
changing moment.
Tiffany D. Jackson (17:59):
She just blew my mind in terms of, like,
how she, you know, she was soprolific and profound,
everything that she was saying.And I just was like, I stood
online to get her book and haveit signed. And keep in mind, I
was a filmmaker at the time. Iwas a film major. This is, like,
second semester of my freshmanyear, and I walk up to her and I
said, I wanna be a writer too.
(18:21):
And I was like, where did thatcome from?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:22):
Oh, it just came out of
Tiffany D. Jackson (18:23):
you. I've never told anyone that. Their
words just came out of me. Andshe was like, oh, okay. And she
wrote a beautiful message in thebook to basically like, you know
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:31):
What to say?
Tiffany D. Jackson (18:31):
I think it says something along the lines
of like, know, follow yourdreams, you know, let me know
when you're ready to talk. Andshe put her phone number in the
book. And I think that'sprobably changed my perspective
in terms of like how I wanna bean author, how I wanna author in
life, how I wanna, like, presentmyself to kids.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:46):
Can you say a little more about that? Like,
do mean more be more accessible?Is that sort of what you mean?
Or be
Tiffany D. Jackson (18:51):
Definitely be more accessible. Be more, you
know, open to going to schoolvisits because I do school
visits all over the country. IfI had known that there was
authors like her in the world, Iprobably wouldn't have been so
afraid to go after my own dream.But I think I go specifically
and talk to kids, and Iespecially in, you know, black
(19:11):
communities because I want blackkids to see that you can this is
an achievable dream, that youdon't have to completely change
who you are to be what you wantto be. She was broken and her
pride was gone, so she toldthose who asked what had
happened.
(19:32):
Hooflung had taken her to ashabby room in a shabby house in
a shabby street and promised tomarry her the next day. They
stayed in the room two wholedays, then she woke up to find
Huflung and her money gone. Shegot up to stir around and see if
she could find him and foundherself too worn out to do much.
(19:52):
All she found out was that shewas too old a vessel for new
wine. The next day, hunger haddriven her out of her shift.
She had stood on the street andsmiled and smiled and then
smiled and begged and then justbegged. After a week, a world
bruising, a young man from ahome had come along and seen
her. She couldn't tell him howit was. She just told him she
(20:14):
got off the train and somebodyhad stolen her purse. Naturally,
he had believed her and takenher home with him to give her
some time to rest up a day ortwo.
Then he had bought her a ticketfor home. They put her to bed
and sent for her marrieddaughter from up around Ocala to
come see about her. The daughtercame as soon as she could and
(20:36):
took Annie Tyler away to die inpeace. She had waited all her
life for something and it hadkilled her when it found her.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (20:46):
Tiffany first read this passage from
Zora Neale Hurston'sgroundbreaking novel, Their Eyes
Were Watching God, a classic ofthe Harlem Renaissance just
after high school. She admiredHurston for her fearlessness, a
writer who stood at the edgesand didn't care what anyone
thought. And when Tiffany cameacross these lines, they hit her
like a gut punch.
Tiffany D. Jackson (21:09):
It was such a heartbreaking story because,
like, ultimately, it was justabout people just wanting for
something more and then beingtaken away. I feel so much for
every character in that novel.You know, there was a happy
ending at the end of this novel.And ultimately, don't look at my
books and say, like, they shouldall have happy endings either.
(21:29):
You should ultimately feelsomething.
And I think that aboveeverything else, you should feel
more for people than anythingelse.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (21:36):
Yeah. It's beautiful. What you said is
beautiful in her writing. But,yeah, that is true. But I I know
what you mean about feeling forthese people above all else.
Even if there is, yeah. I don'tknow. You don't know. I wouldn't
say happy ending is the word foryou. It's not a happy ending for
your books.
Tiffany D. Jackson (21:53):
No. No.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (21:53):
They're endings. They're endings that
have good landings. Your endingshave good landings.
Tiffany D. Jackson (21:57):
Yes. Yeah. Because ultimately, I think it's
important to remember that noteveryone gets a happy ending.
And sometimes life doesn't,like, you know, deal you the
best deck of cards that itcould, but you still have to
play, and you still have to beinvolved, and you still have to
grow with it. And that is theultimate test of resilience.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:15):
Tiffany went on to work in film and
television and was still atNational Geographic when her
first two novels, Allegedly andMonday's Not Coming, were
published. Both were based onreal events and both signaled
what would become a definingthread in her work, stories
rooted in truth told withurgency and care. Monday's Not
Coming was loosely inspired bytwo real cases, and
Tiffany D. Jackson (22:36):
I was still working at National Geographic
at the time, the Benita Jackscase where she had killed four
of her daughters, and they hadbeen missing for, like, three
months. And a lot of peopledon't know that a lot of the
attendance protocols across theentire country was due to that
case.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:54):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Tiffany D. Jackson (22:56):
Because all these girls were missing. They
were aged from, like, I thinkfour to 13. They were all
missing from classes andetcetera, but no one was looking
for them because no one knew tolook for them. And so people
were fired left and right. MayorFenty was just, at the time,
just, like, firing everybody.
Yeah. And all I kept on thinkingis, like, you know, how do kids
just go missing? Like, how dogirls just go missing?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:18):
That just, like, speaks to the idea of,
like, just the monster. I thinkfor kids, especially, like,
adults, your monsters can comefrom inside of you. I mean, they
can come from, like, atliterally anywhere. And, like,
you're saying it can be theenvironment. It can but for a
kid, I think what the mostpainful thing is that it's like
so often from, like, the thingsthat should keep you safe.
Tiffany D. Jackson (23:38):
Yeah. That thing that you go to comfort
you. Like, you're trying to getcomfort by a monster, and you
don't totally understand whatthat is actually doing to you,
especially at, that age. So thatwas one of the cases that
inspired Monday's not coming,and you're right. Like, that was
a monster, like, within, like, ahouse.
And when you looked back on herhistory and her mental health
(24:00):
and, like, the things that sortof, like, drag like, you could
almost understand how ithappened. Yeah. I'll never be
able to fully understand it, butyou could almost understand,
like, the things that, like,brought her to that moment of,
like, a snap. And that's what Iwanted to highlight more than
anything in Mondays Not Comingis to, like, sort of, like,
understand how, like, a monsteris formed, how all these
(24:22):
elements, like, make a monster.Like, sometimes monsters are
born, but sometimes they aremade.
And there are a lot of thingsthat made this monster.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (24:30):
It's interesting because there are
these monsters, but it's likethese scary stories are helping
you deal with the fact thatthere's these terrible things
happening as a kid. But somehow,like, reading about them in this
contained
Tiffany D. Jackson (24:43):
Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (24:43):
Book that's gonna have, like, you know, some
ending that ends in, like,something there's, you know,
hope. Yes. When you think aboutthe books that you've like,
you'd said, you wish you hadthese books. There's, yes. You
want the bridge.
You wanna have, like, horror andthrillers and things that are
age appropriate and have, youknow, black characters or
diverse characters generally.But then there's, like, this
other layer of also just havingthose books to think about
(25:08):
terrible things in a way thatis, like, age appropriate and
not Stephen King, for example.You know? I mean, we see I don't
know. I feel like everybody likeyou, Lamar Giles, anybody who's,
like, writes horror, like, theyloved it.
They read it early. Maybe every11 year old should just read
Stephen King.
Tiffany D. Jackson (25:23):
I don't know.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:23):
But I'm just saying, like so maybe
that's a bad example. But youknow what I mean.
Tiffany D. Jackson (25:28):
Like Yeah. No. I I think do I do it
purposefully? Absolutely. Do Imake things like do I always
wanna rip for the headlines?
Because I think it's importantthat especially for kids to know
that these things are actuallyhappening, that these aren't,
like, you know, fictional talesI'm just making up. Because that
was one of the first things thatfirst happened when I started my
career, especially I think maybeprobably after Monday's not
(25:50):
coming. I would get these, like,emails from, like, readers to be
like, how can you come up withsomething like this? You know,
you're deranged. And then Iwould immediately email them
back the case and be like,actually, I'm not the one who's
deranged.
But I think one of the bestparts about doing something like
this is it's memorable. I don'twant kids to ever forget that
these things happen because Iwant these lessons. I want,
(26:14):
like, everything, the elementsof these stories to really sit
and live with them for a verylong time. Because, ultimately,
I'm hoping that it reallystretches and builds their
empathy muscles. I want them toremember the characters and
remember that these people canbe right next to you or across
the street from you so that youultimately when you get older
and you have to vote and youhave to be able to be a
(26:37):
changemaker and helping tochange policies, that you
remember these stories becauseit wasn't just like some
fictional character wasn't afantasy.
It's something that actuallyhappened. And I gave it to you
in a package that is palatable.I let you experience that pain
in a very safe bubble, but noteveryone has that bubble. And so
(26:58):
it's so much it's important. AndI think about that when I think
of, like, stories that I readwhen I was younger.
There is something to be saidabout stories that stay with you
for life. Books should be corememories. You know, there's
there's fluff and there'senjoyment, but there are some
books that need to really, like,you know, hit home.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:17):
As Tiffany says, some stories stay with us
and become core memories, butothers disappear, especially
when the people at the centerare treated as headlines or
cautionary tales. It's somethingTiffany started to notice while
working on a show calledLockdown. Yes. That's the one.
It's a show about real peopleand the way their lives were
being shaped and reduced by theprison system around them.
Tiffany D. Jackson (27:41):
I laugh now because of how youthful I was
back then Yeah. Of just notunderstanding the significance
of the show.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:49):
Yes. That show was like and I don't know
what I mean, it just yeah. Andit was it really was. And it's
so interesting because theprison system is so broken, you
know, but that was, like,everybody's very small window
unless you have a person in yourfamily in prison. You know?
Tiffany D. Jackson (28:03):
Yeah. Unless you actually knew someone who
was in prison and, you know, hadto have the interaction with
them or, you know, doing thetraveling to go and see them
because that was also, that's achore at times for a lot of
people and for a lot of familiesthat can't afford it. But what
was interesting because eventhough I worked very much behind
the scenes of that series in thevery beginnings of it, I didn't
realize how much we were verymuch taking advantage of
(28:26):
prisoners for other people'sentertainment purposes. And
that's what made me feel really,like, icky about it later.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:32):
Maybe that is, like, your what you've been
doing is finding a different wayto, like, observe and understand
and empathize with people'spain, but in a way that is,
like, meant to drive empathy andchange, you know Yeah. Hearts
and minds, really, or, like, howsort of, like, expand your
experience versus just,entertainment value.
Tiffany D. Jackson (28:52):
Right. And especially geared towards kids.
Right? Because, you know,honestly, these lessons, like,
it'll be like stepping into acomment section of, like, you
know, a terrible post. And I'mnot about to fight with with
adults.
Like, I'm just not about to dothat. You wanna you wanna all
sit in your ignorance. You wannaswim there. That's fine. I'm
gonna worry about these kidsbecause these kids are
(29:14):
ultimately the people that aregoing to change our world, to,
you know, save us fromourselves.
And so they need to actuallyhave the emotional intelligence.
They need to read books that,like, give them that emotional
intelligence and empathy andleads to some type of compassion
and change. Like, ultimately,that's what I want more than
anything. So it's not just aboutentertainment. It does
(29:35):
entertain, but there is gonna besome shift in the way they will
always think about people.
And I think that in humanizing,you know, what people go
through, and I think that'sincredibly important.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:51):
Tiffany's reading challenge will surprise
no one. It's a celebration ofAfrican American horror and
thrillers, genres she's oftenbeen questioned for writing.
Tiffany D. Jackson (30:01):
I think oftentimes, and I just got this
question thrown at me this past,like, weekend at a at Essence
Fest actually, where it's aquestion of, why thrill like,
why are you writing thrillers,or why are you writing horror?
Like, you know, and what is themessage you want and what is the
hope that you wanna give kids?And I always, turn to them and
(30:23):
say, like, you know, whitethriller authors don't get these
questions. Like, why am Iexpected to meet this, like,
extra set of standards justbecause I'm a black author? Why
can't I entertain and thatsimply be it?
Because I don't think there isone Stephen King book that's
given me hope. Like, I justthat's what I
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (30:45):
was talking about before. It's like,
Tiffany D. Jackson (30:47):
like, what has given me hope in, like, this
horror novel? No one's everturned to Danielle Steele and
said, you know, why don't youwrite a non fiction book?
Everyone turns to me and saythat. And so I think that
because of that fact, we don'thave enough black horror writers
and thrillers, you know, becausethey ultimately at one point,
(31:08):
publishing didn't think thatblack people read these type of
stories. And it's the abundanceof us, the very, like, small
unit of us that are, like, goingout of our way to prove them
wrong.
Ultimately, I wanna make surethat I give a shout out to a lot
of the other black horror andthriller writers out there who
are, like, changing the game andwho are, like, stepping up to
(31:30):
the line and really building apath and making a way for the
next generation because we needpeople to pay more attention to
that. My hope is that peoplewill read more books with the
intention of not justsupporting, you know, black
authors who are writing in thisgenre because this is very much
a genre, but also in the hopesto, you know, inspire other
(31:53):
people to write in this genre aswell too.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:55):
Tiffany's reading challenge includes
authors like Lamar Giles, aprevious guest on this show, and
Alexis Henderson among manymore. You can find her reading
challenge and all past readingchallenges at the
readingculturepod.com. And thisweek's Beanstack featured
(32:17):
librarian is once again KellyShelton, an elementary librarian
for Garland ISD in Garland,Texas. She shares how building a
strong reading culture goesbeyond the library and into the
hallways, the bus line, and evenyour students' plays.
Kelly Shelton (32:33):
I think building the culture of reading happens
in the library, but it alsohappens in the hallway. It
happens in bus duty. It happensrandomly. Like, oh, you're in
line. You're doing such a greatjob in line.
This weekend, I was invited tomy students' play, and it was a
summer camp play. And so I wasinvited, and the kids were so
excited to see me. And so justmeeting them where they are at
(32:53):
school, but also when you can goto a ballgame, when you can go
to a play, when you can go to aconcert and know that, yes, you
are my student, and I cherishyou as my student, but you are a
whole person. And you singingand dancing in Aladdin, it's
important for you that I see it,and so I will show up. I will
show up for you and be in yourlife even if you are not my
student anymore because you'reimportant to me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (33:18):
This has been the reading culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with Tiffany d
Jackson. Again, I'm your host,Jordan Lloyd Bookie, and
currently, I'm reading. Welcometo Glorious Tuga by Francesca
Siegel and listening toSoundtrack by Jason Reynolds. If
you've enjoyed today's episode,please take one minute to give
us five stars on Apple orSpotify or wherever you listen.
(33:40):
Your reviews really help theshow get recommended to others,
especially those who wouldotherwise not see it.
Every review, especially thosereally short written ones, help
us. So thanks for doing that.This episode was produced by Mel
Webb and Lower Street Media andscript edited by Josiah Lamberto
Egan. To learn more about howyou can help grow your
community's reading culture, youcan check out all of our
(34:01):
resources at beanstack.com. Andremember to sign up for our
newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com forward
slash newsletter for specialoffers and bonus content.
Thanks for listening and keepreading.
Whenever I think of people who have gone
through something, I'm alwayslike, but they were a human
before this. Before they were amonster, they were human. Before
they were a zombie, they werehuman.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:12):
What if the real monsters aren't hiding
under the bed, but standing inplain sight, smiling wide? They
show up in classrooms,courtrooms, homes. They blend
in. And for young especially, itcan be hard to name what feels
wrong when no one else seems tosee it. That's where stories,
(00:34):
especially horror and thrillerscan help.
They offer a safe bubble, alittle distance, and a way to
confront the truth without beingconsumed by it. Tiffany d
Jackson writes stories thatdon't flinch. The New York Times
bestselling author of Allegedly,The Weight of Blood, Blood in
the Water and more. She blendsreal world horrors with the
(00:57):
sharp tension of a thriller. Herwork takes on missing black
girls, abuse, addiction, andracism all through narrators who
feel heartbreakingly realbecause they are.
Characters drawn from lives toooften erased, told with twists,
suspense and an emotional punchthat lingers long after the last
(01:18):
page. In this episode, Tiffanyshares how growing up between
Brooklyn and Westchestersharpened her view of the world
and the people in it. She talksabout finding her voice in film
school, why stories likeMonday's Not Coming are drawn
from real life cases, and howfiction is her way of building
empathy where the headlines fallshort. My name is Jordan Lloyd
(01:46):
Bookie, and this is the readingculture. A show where we speak
with diverse authors about waysto build a stronger culture of
reading in our communities.
We dive deep into their personalexperiences and inspirations.
Our show is made possible byBeanstack, the leading solution
for motivating people to readmore. Learn more at
beanstack.com, and make sure tocheck us out on Instagram at the
(02:10):
reading culture pod andsubscribe to our newsletter for
bonus content at thereadingculturepod.com forward
slash newsletter. Alright. On tothe show.
Hey, listeners. Are you lookingfor a fun, way to track your
reading and earn cool rewards?Well, meet Beanstack, the
(02:31):
ultimate reading app used by acommunity of over 15,000
schools, libraries, andorganizations nationwide. Are
you an avid reader? Check withyour local library to see if
they offer Beanstack for free.
A parent? Ask your child'steacher if the school library
already uses Beanstack. And ifyou are an educator searching
(02:52):
for a fresh alternative toaccelerated reader, Beanstack is
the perfect tool to cultivate athriving reading culture. Ready
to turn the page? Visitbeanstack.com to learn more.
Okay, Tiffany. We're gonna startin, like, a little different
way. I'm gonna read a passagefrom one of your upcoming books
(03:13):
called The Scammer that hasreally stuck with me ever since
I read it, and it feels likethis theme that runs through a
lot of your work. So here itgoes, beginning a quote.
Everyone knows that monsters arereal.
They don't just live on theoutskirts of our imaginations
with the Tooth Fairy. What wewere never told, never fully
(03:34):
explained is how the monsterscan roam among us, hidden in
plain sight with nice teeth,gorgeous skin, and breathtaking
smiles. How they had the powerto manipulate, the power to
persuade, and the power tosiphon the life out of you. Oh,
so good. And it's just sopowerful.
I think that in particular justmade me wonder, to start if
(03:57):
there was something that younoticed early on in life, but
not everything or everyone iswhat they seem.
Tiffany D. Jackson (04:03):
It's funny that you brought up that quote
because I do oftentimes feellike one of the things about
living in this world is likevillains aren't always very
clear cut. And sometimes thevillain could be your
environment. Sometimes thevillain could be mother nature.
We can see the power mothernature has and the way it just,
like, you know, has completedestruction over everyone. So
(04:24):
it's not specifically a human,but, like, an entity or a thing.
Unintentional monsters. Right? Ifeel like I have found some
unintentional monsters throughjust, like, being a kid, just
being very curious. Right? Like,I always explain that one of my
first experiences of racismhappened when I was probably,
(04:44):
like, nine years old.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (04:46):
Now what happened?
Tiffany D. Jackson (04:47):
So I was at a horseback riding camp. God
bless my mom, you know, becauseI said I really wanted to ride
horses, and she found thisprogram. And I was the only
black girl in there. You know,we had to come all the way from
Brooklyn up into the city and toride these horses. And one of
the things everyone knew is thatyou can't open up the garage
door in the track because itwould scare the horses.
(05:07):
And I remember being in thetrack, you know, kinda with my
instructor kinda, like, doing myrounds, and someone opened the
track door. And the course wentcrazy, and I truly thought I was
going to die. Like, it wasbucking. Eventually, it threw me
off. And I remember, like,getting up and looking over and
seeing, like, a group of whitekids, and they all just kinda
(05:28):
snickering by the actual, like,garage door opener.
And at first, like, I'm nineyears old, so I was kinda like,
well, why did they do that? Thatwas so dumb. And it wasn't until
much later on at night when Iwas by myself where I was like,
oh, they did that on purpose,and this is why. And it was a
very strange feeling for me tobe like, oh, like, they don't
(05:50):
like me because I'm black. Andit may seem so unintentional.
That was a moment where Irealized, like, you know, who I
am in my skin outside of, like,Brooklyn, outside of, like, you
know, my community, like, whatpeople see. And when I say
unintentional monsters, it meansthat when I looked at my
teachers to enforce something,they were just like, oh, it was
(06:11):
an accident. And I don't thinkthey realized what they did
there to, like, a little blackgirl. And to me, it sort of
delved into my mistrust of justteachers in general, like
educate like, people who aresupposed to be on your side.
Like, you can never truly trustthe people that you're around
unless they're, like, yourfamily, your, like, close
friends, and stuff like that.
(06:32):
And I was nine. So then I endedup faking and pretending that,
like, I hated horses after thatbecause I knew if I told my mom
what exactly happened, shewould, like, light the whole
place on fire. That's right. I Ilike Yeah. So I just was like,
oh, horses are stupid.
But I actually really lovedhorses, and I really wanted to
keep on doing that. But I knewthat if my coach wasn't going to
(06:57):
my instructor specificallywasn't going to protect me, and
the people around there wasn'tgonna protect me, and these kids
were just gonna go uncheckedMhmm. That I could honestly
like, something could reallyhappen to me. And I had the
wherewithal to know that, but itwas just so sad because I was
nine.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:12):
Those kids probably don't I don't know. But
probably don't even remember.You know, the the instructor,
like, them, that was just a dayof somebody opened the Yeah.
Yeah. It's so interestingbecause your mom, I'm guessing,
was, like, really trying to,like, give you that exposure and
let you have access to thisYeah.
Thing if you're growing up inBrooklyn and trying to, in fact,
do the opposite. Right?
Tiffany D. Jackson (07:32):
And those lessons weren't cheap. Right.
You know, the time it took,like, you know, to take me on a
Saturday after, like, workingall day, like, that's that's a
lot. And I look back on it nowand think, like, you know, even
if I did say something to herabout it, you know, of course,
after she lit the whole place onfire, she probably still would
have, like, made me try to,like, do it, but it just
(07:53):
wouldn't have been the same tome anymore. It was tainted.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (07:56):
Tiffany spent her early years in
Brooklyn, but her familyeventually moved to Westchester,
a quiet suburb just outside thecity. And even there, the
monsters continued to makethemselves known.
Tiffany D. Jackson (08:09):
I ended up being one of the maybe four or
five black kids in my entirehigh school, and that was pretty
tough. Like, I wouldn't wishthat on anybody. It was really a
bizarre experience because Iwent from having such, like, a
huge community and being one ofdozens Mhmm. You know, and a
(08:29):
very diverse community inBrooklyn, I should add, to then
constantly having thismicroaggressions, just waves of
microaggressions throughout myentire high school career, and I
hated it so much. Hated everymoment.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (08:43):
Did your parents try and move there to,
like, good schools for, like,quote good school, or is that
the idea was, like, moving foryou to be or were they moved
there for a different reason? Orwere they moving there for you
to go to high school there?
Tiffany D. Jackson (08:53):
Honestly, the logic, which, you know, it
does sound logical when you putit together, but, you know, they
wanted me to go to a goodschool. And a lot of the good
schools in Brooklyn specificallywere private schools. And the
money it was gonna cost, my mydad was like, we might as well
move, buy a home, and let her goto the public school in a good
community. Mhmm. Not realizingthe sort of, like, detrimental
(09:17):
effects of going into these goodneighborhoods, these good
communities could actually have.
And I have never talked to anyperson of color who's had a good
experience at that high school.So, yes, we got a home. We moved
out of Brooklyn. We had a home,and it was amazing because it
was a home with, like, you know,stairs. I've always wanted a
house with stairs because I, youknow, I I lived in apartments
(09:40):
for my So entire it was justamazing to just have a house
with stairs, like things you seein movies
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (09:45):
To them being like, oh, this is a
nightmare. You know, take usback to the projects. Like, I
would rather do that than livein a nice neighborhood.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (09:53):
Must've been so hard. Did you end up
making friends or, you know,some friends at the new school,
or did you mostly keep toyourself?
Tiffany D. Jackson (09:59):
So I did have some friends, of course, a
couple of other black kids thatwere in the school. But I, like,
definitely, for the most part,stayed to myself because I
realized, like, I just felt likeI wasn't supposed to be here and
that every, like, waking momentwas towards, like, getting
myself out of this situation,out of Westchester. So a lot of
(10:19):
times, I was, like, in the housereading or writing or working on
something that would eventually,like, help me get out. So, like,
I had the wherewithal to knowthat, like, you know, this
isn't, like, a finaldestination. And if I, like,
stay in the situation, if I payattention to it too much, I
could get stuck here, and Idon't wanna be here.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (10:36):
To have that foresight as a kid, you
know, as a high schooler, it'swild. And then I guess, like,
hearing about your childhoodabout especially that move to
Westchester, do you think thatexperience is a kind of where
some of the darker, like, morecomplicated themes in your books
originate from? Like, does thator I don't know. Maybe that
(10:56):
traces back to earlier inBrooklyn.
Tiffany D. Jackson (10:59):
People are always like, you know, what
happened to you? I think thatthere have been moments where
you know, New York in thenineties, eighties and nineties
were was incredibly scary. Therewere a lot of scary moments, a
lot of drugs that, you know,infiltrated people's families
and stuff like that. And therewas a lot of time that people
were walking around the streetslooking like zombies. And as a
(11:20):
kid, you're processing thatbecause you don't know what's
going on with them, and you'rejust like, you know, these are
crazy bad people.
But then at one point, I startedto go to AA meetings because,
you know, there were nobabysitters around, and so I was
sort of, you know, I was in AAmeetings with, you know, some of
the adults in my family. Sothere were times where I had
(11:40):
been, you know, in meetings inthe back of the room, and I'm
listening to stories andlistening and understanding
that, you know, oh, wait. Thesearen't zombies. These are human
beings. These are people thatare, like, are in my family, and
they all have stories of howthey even got there.
And so I think, ultimately, itmade me humanize people. And I
(12:03):
ultimately think of that like,whenever I think of people who
have gone through something, I'malways like, but they were a
human before this. Before theywere a monster, they were human.
Before they were a zombie, theywere human. And so that to me, I
guess, in a lot of ways, hasaffected the way I wanted to
tell stories and how people likeme kind of deal with those
(12:24):
family members for whateverreason, and however it happened.
But yeah, that is kind of like,when people are like, what
happened to you? I'm like,nothing happened to me actually.
I was just watching.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:34):
Yes. And paying attention.
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:35):
I was paying attention. Yeah. Mhmm. Nothing
actually happened to me. I had avery good childhood.
Obviously, there's bumps in theroads and that's just the nature
of things.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:43):
Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:44):
But I paid attention to my surroundings.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:48):
It's so interesting to me that your
parents, they left that fortheir obvious reasons, you know,
to try and thinking that thatwas like the
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:55):
Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (12:56):
Thing, but then to just it's just the irony
of that.
Tiffany D. Jackson (12:58):
I think that's like one of the key
things about my parents is thatthey never hid things from me,
but they definitely didn't letme be like a whole part of it
either.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:07):
Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (13:08):
And I think ultimately that makes me a
better person for it because Inever like shy away from like,
you know, homeless person onlike, you know, subway and stuff
like that because there's areason that they're here.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (13:19):
Was there like a a safe harbor for you?
Was writing your safe harbor?Like, what was your
Tiffany D. Jackson (13:23):
Oh, yeah. Writing was definitely my safe
harbor. And you know what? Eventhough I hated going to this
school, I think it dideverything for my writing career
because I sort of went inwardand was writing and focused on
just honestly, I just focused ongetting out. So I specifically
remember, and my mother stillhas it, during my freshman year
(13:46):
in high school, I wrote, like, abook by hand.
It was eight five subjectnotebooks. What? Yes. All
written in pencil, doublespaced. Like, I was, like, you
know because I didn't have acomputer, and I wrote this
whole, like, assassin story.
Damn. And I got a d in theclass, and my mother will never
let me forget it because Ididn't pay attention to the
(14:08):
class because I was working onthis novel.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (14:10):
And were you also a reader or was write I
mean, do those go hand in handfor you?
Tiffany D. Jackson (14:14):
I was definitely a reader. I was
definitely the person whobecause I grew up mostly
reading, Earl Stein and, like,Christopher Pike. I was just
reading all, like, these scarynovels, and then I went sort of
kind of straight to Stephen Kingand straight to, like, the Mary
Higgins Clark and Toni Morrison,Maya Angelou, and, Terry
(14:34):
McMillan. And that's one of thebigger reasons why I do write
thrillers today is because I wasreading all these thrillers and
horror at, like, you know, age11 and 12. Because after I,
like, you know, went through allof basically Aarl Stein's
catalog, there was reallynothing for me.
I had to go straight to adult atthat point. Mhmm. And I wish
there was more of a bridge.Yeah. And that's been, like, my
(14:58):
defining point in my career isto make sure that I, like, have
that bridge for, like because Iknow there's a bunch of mes out
there.
Like, I know there was a bunchof, like, little black girls and
black boys
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:09):
Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (15:09):
Who were reading horror, reading
thrillers, and just sort ofjumping straight into adults.
And, like, it was the only kindof stories that had, like, that
angst and that suspense Yeah.That could really keep my
attention. I do feel that mostof my books will always be that,
like, gap. Like, to fill thatgap that we probably have always
(15:29):
had, just no one noticed it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:31):
Yeah. You're definitely filling that
gap now. Especially since you'rewriting more more middle grade.
Right? Okay.
So those are some of the authorsthat you are drawn to. And what
about any, like are there anycharacters specifically?
Tiffany D. Jackson (15:42):
I often think about the character in the
coldest winter ever, which iswinter. That was a very raw and
gritty book. I didn't read thattill college.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (15:53):
Side note, the coldest winter ever was a
1999 bestseller by activistSister Solja, a bleak coming of
age story about a wealthy drugdealer's daughter.
Tiffany D. Jackson (16:03):
But what was fascinating to me about this
story was the lesson that wasreally involved. It was very
much a warning, and I don'tthink people picked up on that.
There's a lot of people who,like, loved it because it was
Rhydian gras and it's, like, youknow, what they call it, an
urban fiction tale.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (16:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Tiffany D. Jackson (16:19):
But there were so many lessons layered
into it. And even the author,Sister Soldier, like, writing
herself into the novel Yeah. Andreally giving, like, powerful
speeches, like, full on speechesin the novel. She is really
laying a foundation of a warningthat there was no heroine in
this story. There was no onethat was supposed to, like, make
(16:40):
it to the end, like, you know,get what they actually want.
This was all supposed to be awarning of how society has
placed these type of pressuresand unfortunate circumstances,
not only on black people, butspecifically on black girls. And
I often think about her as acharacter because I I think,
like I said, I think the bookgets a lot of it has a urban
(17:02):
legend behind it in a way.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:04):
It's interesting because it was like
I feel like because of thegrittiness or whatever, like,
you're right. That was like theappeal or like the Yes. Wow or
whatever you wanna call that ofit was that as opposed to the
message of the book maybe.
Tiffany D. Jackson (17:17):
Yeah. It was a very layered story. Mhmm. A
very culturally significantstory, especially for people who
grew up in environments likewinter because I could see it
all. It's almost like a movieI've already seen, but it's
being painted in a differentlight that I can actually see
the elements and how somethinglike this could happen.
Like, lot of times when you livein these type of environments,
(17:38):
you're seeing the end of a storyversus this book really showed
you the prequel.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (17:44):
During her time at Howard, Tiffany went to
the sister to sister tour andsaw a sister soldier speak on
stage. She was the first authorTiffany ever met, and their
meeting suddenly andunexpectedly became a life
changing moment.
Tiffany D. Jackson (17:59):
She just blew my mind in terms of, like,
how she, you know, she was soprolific and profound,
everything that she was saying.And I just was like, I stood
online to get her book and haveit signed. And keep in mind, I
was a filmmaker at the time. Iwas a film major. This is, like,
second semester of my freshmanyear, and I walk up to her and I
said, I wanna be a writer too.
(18:21):
And I was like, where did thatcome from?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:22):
Oh, it just came out of
Tiffany D. Jackson (18:23):
you. I've never told anyone that. Their
words just came out of me. Andshe was like, oh, okay. And she
wrote a beautiful message in thebook to basically like, you know
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:31):
What to say?
Tiffany D. Jackson (18:31):
I think it says something along the lines
of like, know, follow yourdreams, you know, let me know
when you're ready to talk. Andshe put her phone number in the
book. And I think that'sprobably changed my perspective
in terms of like how I wanna bean author, how I wanna author in
life, how I wanna, like, presentmyself to kids.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (18:46):
Can you say a little more about that? Like,
do mean more be more accessible?Is that sort of what you mean?
Or be
Tiffany D. Jackson (18:51):
Definitely be more accessible. Be more, you
know, open to going to schoolvisits because I do school
visits all over the country. IfI had known that there was
authors like her in the world, Iprobably wouldn't have been so
afraid to go after my own dream.But I think I go specifically
and talk to kids, and Iespecially in, you know, black
(19:11):
communities because I want blackkids to see that you can this is
an achievable dream, that youdon't have to completely change
who you are to be what you wantto be. She was broken and her
pride was gone, so she toldthose who asked what had
happened.
(19:32):
Hooflung had taken her to ashabby room in a shabby house in
a shabby street and promised tomarry her the next day. They
stayed in the room two wholedays, then she woke up to find
Huflung and her money gone. Shegot up to stir around and see if
she could find him and foundherself too worn out to do much.
(19:52):
All she found out was that shewas too old a vessel for new
wine. The next day, hunger haddriven her out of her shift.
She had stood on the street andsmiled and smiled and then
smiled and begged and then justbegged. After a week, a world
bruising, a young man from ahome had come along and seen
her. She couldn't tell him howit was. She just told him she
(20:14):
got off the train and somebodyhad stolen her purse. Naturally,
he had believed her and takenher home with him to give her
some time to rest up a day ortwo.
Then he had bought her a ticketfor home. They put her to bed
and sent for her marrieddaughter from up around Ocala to
come see about her. The daughtercame as soon as she could and
(20:36):
took Annie Tyler away to die inpeace. She had waited all her
life for something and it hadkilled her when it found her.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (20:46):
Tiffany first read this passage from
Zora Neale Hurston'sgroundbreaking novel, Their Eyes
Were Watching God, a classic ofthe Harlem Renaissance just
after high school. She admiredHurston for her fearlessness, a
writer who stood at the edgesand didn't care what anyone
thought. And when Tiffany cameacross these lines, they hit her
like a gut punch.
Tiffany D. Jackson (21:09):
It was such a heartbreaking story because,
like, ultimately, it was justabout people just wanting for
something more and then beingtaken away. I feel so much for
every character in that novel.You know, there was a happy
ending at the end of this novel.And ultimately, don't look at my
books and say, like, they shouldall have happy endings either.
(21:29):
You should ultimately feelsomething.
And I think that aboveeverything else, you should feel
more for people than anythingelse.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (21:36):
Yeah. It's beautiful. What you said is
beautiful in her writing. But,yeah, that is true. But I I know
what you mean about feeling forthese people above all else.
Even if there is, yeah. I don'tknow. You don't know. I wouldn't
say happy ending is the word foryou. It's not a happy ending for
your books.
Tiffany D. Jackson (21:53):
No. No.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (21:53):
They're endings. They're endings that
have good landings. Your endingshave good landings.
Tiffany D. Jackson (21:57):
Yes. Yeah. Because ultimately, I think it's
important to remember that noteveryone gets a happy ending.
And sometimes life doesn't,like, you know, deal you the
best deck of cards that itcould, but you still have to
play, and you still have to beinvolved, and you still have to
grow with it. And that is theultimate test of resilience.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:15):
Tiffany went on to work in film and
television and was still atNational Geographic when her
first two novels, Allegedly andMonday's Not Coming, were
published. Both were based onreal events and both signaled
what would become a definingthread in her work, stories
rooted in truth told withurgency and care. Monday's Not
Coming was loosely inspired bytwo real cases, and
Tiffany D. Jackson (22:36):
I was still working at National Geographic
at the time, the Benita Jackscase where she had killed four
of her daughters, and they hadbeen missing for, like, three
months. And a lot of peopledon't know that a lot of the
attendance protocols across theentire country was due to that
case.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (22:54):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Tiffany D. Jackson (22:56):
Because all these girls were missing. They
were aged from, like, I thinkfour to 13. They were all
missing from classes andetcetera, but no one was looking
for them because no one knew tolook for them. And so people
were fired left and right. MayorFenty was just, at the time,
just, like, firing everybody.
Yeah. And all I kept on thinkingis, like, you know, how do kids
just go missing? Like, how dogirls just go missing?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (23:18):
That just, like, speaks to the idea of,
like, just the monster. I thinkfor kids, especially, like,
adults, your monsters can comefrom inside of you. I mean, they
can come from, like, atliterally anywhere. And, like,
you're saying it can be theenvironment. It can but for a
kid, I think what the mostpainful thing is that it's like
so often from, like, the thingsthat should keep you safe.
Tiffany D. Jackson (23:38):
Yeah. That thing that you go to comfort
you. Like, you're trying to getcomfort by a monster, and you
don't totally understand whatthat is actually doing to you,
especially at, that age. So thatwas one of the cases that
inspired Monday's not coming,and you're right. Like, that was
a monster, like, within, like, ahouse.
And when you looked back on herhistory and her mental health
(24:00):
and, like, the things that sortof, like, drag like, you could
almost understand how ithappened. Yeah. I'll never be
able to fully understand it, butyou could almost understand,
like, the things that, like,brought her to that moment of,
like, a snap. And that's what Iwanted to highlight more than
anything in Mondays Not Comingis to, like, sort of, like,
understand how, like, a monsteris formed, how all these
(24:22):
elements, like, make a monster.Like, sometimes monsters are
born, but sometimes they aremade.
And there are a lot of thingsthat made this monster.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (24:30):
It's interesting because there are
these monsters, but it's likethese scary stories are helping
you deal with the fact thatthere's these terrible things
happening as a kid. But somehow,like, reading about them in this
contained
Tiffany D. Jackson (24:43):
Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (24:43):
Book that's gonna have, like, you know, some
ending that ends in, like,something there's, you know,
hope. Yes. When you think aboutthe books that you've like,
you'd said, you wish you hadthese books. There's, yes. You
want the bridge.
You wanna have, like, horror andthrillers and things that are
age appropriate and have, youknow, black characters or
diverse characters generally.But then there's, like, this
other layer of also just havingthose books to think about
(25:08):
terrible things in a way thatis, like, age appropriate and
not Stephen King, for example.You know? I mean, we see I don't
know. I feel like everybody likeyou, Lamar Giles, anybody who's,
like, writes horror, like, theyloved it.
They read it early. Maybe every11 year old should just read
Stephen King.
Tiffany D. Jackson (25:23):
I don't know.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (25:23):
But I'm just saying, like so maybe
that's a bad example. But youknow what I mean.
Tiffany D. Jackson (25:28):
Like Yeah. No. I I think do I do it
purposefully? Absolutely. Do Imake things like do I always
wanna rip for the headlines?
Because I think it's importantthat especially for kids to know
that these things are actuallyhappening, that these aren't,
like, you know, fictional talesI'm just making up. Because that
was one of the first things thatfirst happened when I started my
career, especially I think maybeprobably after Monday's not
(25:50):
coming. I would get these, like,emails from, like, readers to be
like, how can you come up withsomething like this? You know,
you're deranged. And then Iwould immediately email them
back the case and be like,actually, I'm not the one who's
deranged.
But I think one of the bestparts about doing something like
this is it's memorable. I don'twant kids to ever forget that
these things happen because Iwant these lessons. I want,
(26:14):
like, everything, the elementsof these stories to really sit
and live with them for a verylong time. Because, ultimately,
I'm hoping that it reallystretches and builds their
empathy muscles. I want them toremember the characters and
remember that these people canbe right next to you or across
the street from you so that youultimately when you get older
and you have to vote and youhave to be able to be a
(26:37):
changemaker and helping tochange policies, that you
remember these stories becauseit wasn't just like some
fictional character wasn't afantasy.
It's something that actuallyhappened. And I gave it to you
in a package that is palatable.I let you experience that pain
in a very safe bubble, but noteveryone has that bubble. And so
(26:58):
it's so much it's important. AndI think about that when I think
of, like, stories that I readwhen I was younger.
There is something to be saidabout stories that stay with you
for life. Books should be corememories. You know, there's
there's fluff and there'senjoyment, but there are some
books that need to really, like,you know, hit home.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:17):
As Tiffany says, some stories stay with us
and become core memories, butothers disappear, especially
when the people at the centerare treated as headlines or
cautionary tales. It's somethingTiffany started to notice while
working on a show calledLockdown. Yes. That's the one.
It's a show about real peopleand the way their lives were
being shaped and reduced by theprison system around them.
Tiffany D. Jackson (27:41):
I laugh now because of how youthful I was
back then Yeah. Of just notunderstanding the significance
of the show.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (27:49):
Yes. That show was like and I don't know
what I mean, it just yeah. Andit was it really was. And it's
so interesting because theprison system is so broken, you
know, but that was, like,everybody's very small window
unless you have a person in yourfamily in prison. You know?
Tiffany D. Jackson (28:03):
Yeah. Unless you actually knew someone who
was in prison and, you know, hadto have the interaction with
them or, you know, doing thetraveling to go and see them
because that was also, that's achore at times for a lot of
people and for a lot of familiesthat can't afford it. But what
was interesting because eventhough I worked very much behind
the scenes of that series in thevery beginnings of it, I didn't
realize how much we were verymuch taking advantage of
(28:26):
prisoners for other people'sentertainment purposes. And
that's what made me feel really,like, icky about it later.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (28:32):
Maybe that is, like, your what you've been
doing is finding a different wayto, like, observe and understand
and empathize with people'spain, but in a way that is,
like, meant to drive empathy andchange, you know Yeah. Hearts
and minds, really, or, like, howsort of, like, expand your
experience versus just,entertainment value.
Tiffany D. Jackson (28:52):
Right. And especially geared towards kids.
Right? Because, you know,honestly, these lessons, like,
it'll be like stepping into acomment section of, like, you
know, a terrible post. And I'mnot about to fight with with
adults.
Like, I'm just not about to dothat. You wanna you wanna all
sit in your ignorance. You wannaswim there. That's fine. I'm
gonna worry about these kidsbecause these kids are
(29:14):
ultimately the people that aregoing to change our world, to,
you know, save us fromourselves.
And so they need to actuallyhave the emotional intelligence.
They need to read books that,like, give them that emotional
intelligence and empathy andleads to some type of compassion
and change. Like, ultimately,that's what I want more than
anything. So it's not just aboutentertainment. It does
(29:35):
entertain, but there is gonna besome shift in the way they will
always think about people.
And I think that in humanizing,you know, what people go
through, and I think that'sincredibly important.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (29:51):
Tiffany's reading challenge will surprise
no one. It's a celebration ofAfrican American horror and
thrillers, genres she's oftenbeen questioned for writing.
Tiffany D. Jackson (30:01):
I think oftentimes, and I just got this
question thrown at me this past,like, weekend at a at Essence
Fest actually, where it's aquestion of, why thrill like,
why are you writing thrillers,or why are you writing horror?
Like, you know, and what is themessage you want and what is the
hope that you wanna give kids?And I always, turn to them and
(30:23):
say, like, you know, whitethriller authors don't get these
questions. Like, why am Iexpected to meet this, like,
extra set of standards justbecause I'm a black author? Why
can't I entertain and thatsimply be it?
Because I don't think there isone Stephen King book that's
given me hope. Like, I justthat's what I
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (30:45):
was talking about before. It's like,
Tiffany D. Jackson (30:47):
like, what has given me hope in, like, this
horror novel? No one's everturned to Danielle Steele and
said, you know, why don't youwrite a non fiction book?
Everyone turns to me and saythat. And so I think that
because of that fact, we don'thave enough black horror writers
and thrillers, you know, becausethey ultimately at one point,
(31:08):
publishing didn't think thatblack people read these type of
stories. And it's the abundanceof us, the very, like, small
unit of us that are, like, goingout of our way to prove them
wrong.
Ultimately, I wanna make surethat I give a shout out to a lot
of the other black horror andthriller writers out there who
are, like, changing the game andwho are, like, stepping up to
(31:30):
the line and really building apath and making a way for the
next generation because we needpeople to pay more attention to
that. My hope is that peoplewill read more books with the
intention of not justsupporting, you know, black
authors who are writing in thisgenre because this is very much
a genre, but also in the hopesto, you know, inspire other
(31:53):
people to write in this genre aswell too.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (31:55):
Tiffany's reading challenge includes
authors like Lamar Giles, aprevious guest on this show, and
Alexis Henderson among manymore. You can find her reading
challenge and all past readingchallenges at the
readingculturepod.com. And thisweek's Beanstack featured
(32:17):
librarian is once again KellyShelton, an elementary librarian
for Garland ISD in Garland,Texas. She shares how building a
strong reading culture goesbeyond the library and into the
hallways, the bus line, and evenyour students' plays.
Kelly Shelton (32:33):
I think building the culture of reading happens
in the library, but it alsohappens in the hallway. It
happens in bus duty. It happensrandomly. Like, oh, you're in
line. You're doing such a greatjob in line.
This weekend, I was invited tomy students' play, and it was a
summer camp play. And so I wasinvited, and the kids were so
excited to see me. And so justmeeting them where they are at
(32:53):
school, but also when you can goto a ballgame, when you can go
to a play, when you can go to aconcert and know that, yes, you
are my student, and I cherishyou as my student, but you are a
whole person. And you singingand dancing in Aladdin, it's
important for you that I see it,and so I will show up. I will
show up for you and be in yourlife even if you are not my
student anymore because you'reimportant to me.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey (33:18):
This has been the reading culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with Tiffany d
Jackson. Again, I'm your host,Jordan Lloyd Bookie, and
currently, I'm reading. Welcometo Glorious Tuga by Francesca
Siegel and listening toSoundtrack by Jason Reynolds. If
you've enjoyed today's episode,please take one minute to give
us five stars on Apple orSpotify or wherever you listen.
(33:40):
Your reviews really help theshow get recommended to others,
especially those who wouldotherwise not see it.
Every review, especially thosereally short written ones, help
us. So thanks for doing that.This episode was produced by Mel
Webb and Lower Street Media andscript edited by Josiah Lamberto
Egan. To learn more about howyou can help grow your
community's reading culture, youcan check out all of our
(34:01):
resources at beanstack.com. Andremember to sign up for our
newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com forward
slash newsletter for specialoffers and bonus content.
Thanks for listening and keepreading.
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