We Contain Multitudes: Debbie Levy on the Dangers of Reductionist Thinking

Episode Transcript
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Debbie Levy (00:00):
It's very rare for a person to just be one thing.

(00:07):
Most issues, most things thatmatter are not so black and
white. I realized that that cansound wishy washy and a lack of
conviction. And I would notdescribe myself that way and I
don't advocate that, but I doadvocate for understanding that

(00:29):
other people may think differentfrom how you think. Life isn't
simple.
It's full of contradictions. Wewant to

Jordan Lloyd Bookey (00:37):
believe in right and wrong and clear cut
answers and certainty that goodand evil can be neatly
separated. But the more we look,the more we see that the world
exists in shades of gray, messy,layered, and deeply nuanced. For
a history writer, that meansunderstanding that figures we

(00:57):
cast as villains oftentimesbelieve themselves to be

the heroes. Everybody is somebody's son,
daughter, brother, lover,sister, something. Just let's
remember that even our so calledenemies are human beings just
like us with people that theylove or that love them. Debbie
Levy has spent her careerdigging into that tension, the

(01:24):
push and pull between certaintyand nuance. She's been

a lawyer, a journalist, and now an award
winning author of books foryoung readers, including I
Dissent, Ruth Bader GinsburgMakes Her Mark, The Year of
Goodbyes, and more recently, ADangerous Idea, The Scopes
Trial, The Original Fight OverScience in Schools. Her work

(01:48):
takes on history, justice, andidentity, but history in
particular is never asstraightforward as it seems. We
don't all remember it the sameway, and recollection itself
isn't always black and white.Debbie is drawn to those
contradictions, the in betweenspaces where real understanding
happens. In this episode, Debbiereflects on what rabbis and

(02:10):
Supreme Court justices have incommon, why she is optimistic
about students' ability to dealwith disinformation, and how
books can help kids hold spacefor complexity.
Plus, a book so sad it was soldwith tissues in it, a surprising
childhood obsession withSuperman, and why her mom taught
her that being too good wasn'talways a good thing. And in this

(02:35):
episode, make sure to stickaround to the end for a little
bit of bonus content. After ourconversation, Debbie reflected
on the interview and ended upsharing a story with me via
voice memo that expands a bit onher dad's unbelievable but real
wartime experience. And I reallythink you'll wanna hear it too,
so stick around until the veryend of the episode to listen to

(02:56):
that. My name is Jordan LloydBookie, and this is the reading
culture, a show where we speakwith authors and illustrators
about ways to build a strongerculture of reading in our
communities.
We dive into their personalexperiences, their inspirations,
and why their stories and ideasmotivate kids to read more. Make
sure to check us out onInstagram for giveaways at the

(03:19):
reading culture pod, and you canalso subscribe to our newsletter
atthereadingculturepod.com/newsletter.
Alright. On to the show. Hey,listeners.
Are you looking for a fun, easyway to track your reading and
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(03:41):
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alternative to acceleratedreader, Beanstack is the perfect
tool to cultivate a thrivingreading culture. Ready to turn
the page? Visit beanstack.com tolearn more. Let's start with
what growing up in the suburbsof Washington DC, my own city,

(04:23):
was like.

My world was, I think, pretty ordinary in Silver
Spring. I have an older sister.My father was older than
everybody else's father,thirteen years older than my
mother. We could play outsideand not have the parents
watching. So there was lots ofoutside play, marbles on the

(04:47):
sewer top, hide and seek,baseball.
And especially with oneneighbor, one girl across the
street, a lot of comic booktrading. I really like Archie
and Veronica comics and was agreat fan of Superman and
Superboy. We didn't live inwalking distance to the library,
to the Silver Spring Librarywhich is still there and I was

(05:08):
just, well, was nighttime so Ididn't go in, but I was just
next door at missus k's TollHouse.

Oh, yeah. Which is no longer missus k's
Toll House.

Yes. But it looks exactly the library looks
exactly as it did when I used togo there Very frequently,
probably every ten days, and youcould take out endless numbers
of books. I mean, everybodyknows this, but when you're a
kid, it's just a huge treat. Iwas a voracious reader, but not
very wide ranging. I love NancyDrew books.

Oh,

really? I love the All of a Kind Family books. And
I just went back and read oneyesterday. And it's interesting.
Really, I realized I reallydon't remember what was it about
it that I loved so much becausethe all of a kind family, it's a
Jewish family.
They live on the Lower East SideOf New York City. It takes place

(06:01):
in 1912. At least the first booktakes place in 1912. And they
have very little to do with myown family, which is Jewish
because we weren't Lower EastSide New York people. We weren't
a big family that was very tiedinto all of the holidays.
But I just felt it was a verywarm book, a very warm series.

(06:26):
So that must be what it was.Mhmm. And also the ability to
read a book set in, as I said,the first book is in 1912, and
feel like I recognize those kidsand those parents and the other
adults in the neighborhood. Andit was so long ago as in olden
times.

(06:47):
And that really made animpression on me. Or I guess
really made me realize what abook could do. I shouldn't feel
close to these people from oldendays and yet there I was feeling
that way. We talk a lot

on this show about books power to build
empathy in unexpected ways,whether between people from
different backgrounds or asDebbie found in her childhood
reading, people from differentgenerations. But it wasn't just
in fiction that Debbie foundthose connections across
history. She also found them inrich living color from her own
family members.

My mother used to like to tell stories of growing
up in Washington. She was verysocial and going to parties and
traveling down when she was alittle older to the University
of Virginia where I ended upgoing to college to undergrad
because she had a boyfriend downthere and how much she loved
Charlottesville. She toldstories like that. My

(07:45):
grandmother told some greatstories because she would tell
stories from really the oldendays, like from the funny guy
days, from the from the all of akind family days back in Poland.
When Poland would going back andforth between being Poland and
being Russia and how sometimesher family had to quarter

(08:07):
troops, Russian troops in thehouse just because people used
to have to.
But she also told great greatstories about her father who was
a dentist in, you know, theearly nineteen hundreds complete
with photographs. For example, Ihave a photograph of him in his
office and you see the drill,you know, for drilling your

(08:29):
teeth. It's operated by a footpedal Oh. To make it to make it
go.

You know, you write a lot about history.
So I guess I'm not surprisedthat history was like so present
in your life, you know, in youreveryday life. But it really
comes through obviously in yourwriting, and not all of it, but
definitely, in a dangerous idea.In your most recent book,
there's this sense of, like,looking back and, like,
examining or reexamininghistory. And I'm hearing that

(08:56):
thread when I hear you talkabout your own family, and it's
so interesting because you grewup with a lot of generations
near you.
And guess, a unique way ofgrowing up and hearing these
stories of the past and beingmore immersed in that and not
just in your own present moment.You know?

You are right. And just thinking about it as you're
speaking, I'm aware of how I wasaware of history. I felt when I
was growing up like, yeah, WorldWar two, that was although, of
course, you know, I wasn't born,but it just felt very present.
And yes, it's because of my momand her mom. But I'm telling

(09:34):
you, even like the civil war inthis country where I had no
people.
Right? That felt not present,but oh, accessible, I should
say, and of interests.

Yeah. On the topic of your mom, something
I've been thinking a lot aboutis that, you know, there's a lot
written about kids of Holocaustsurvivors or written even, like,
by kids of Holocaust survivorsand what those households are
like. And, you know, it'sdifferent when you think about
somebody whose parent escapedlike your mom did escape Nazi
Germany before the Holocausthappened. And I was just

(10:10):
wondering if that was something,you know, you talked much about
growing up.

So we didn't talk about her experience that much.
Of course, we did much laterwhen I wrote the book about her,
The Year of Goodbyes. But mymother turned out to be this
life loving, fun, outgoingperson. And was it because of
her experience or is that justwho she is? I think it's a
combination of both.

(10:34):
And I really, maybe I wasn't soaware of it at the time, but in
looking back at our life and ather life now, I see this person
who was so interested in otherpeople. So what I got from that
is an openness to other people.Only she was much better at it

(10:54):
than I was, at least for manyyears. I find myself now being
more that type of person. And Ithink if I were to psychoanalyze
her a little bit, I think Iwould say that she came to this
country from Germany with anaccent, wearing the wrong
clothes, eating the wrong lunch,And she first lived well, she

(11:18):
first lived here in WashingtonDC with a wealthy aunt who said,
if you stay with me, life'sgonna be good.
Of course, that's not what shewanted to do. So she left to
live in New York City with therest of the family once they
found an apartment with abedroom. I think there was one.
But when she was in New York, sothat was really her first

(11:40):
semester here in this country.She gotten so many scrapes with
other kids.
She was very feisty. You'regonna make fun of me for the way
I talk. I'm gonna have a fistfight with you in the
schoolyard. And I know this istrue not so much from her, but
after I wrote something abouther and and it was published in
the Washington Post, before Iwrote the Year of Goodbyes, I

(12:00):
got a letter from her formerteacher here in town after they
moved to Washington at PaulJunior High Wow. Who said, I
remember your mother, Utah.
She got many a scrape in theschoolyard here. My head
exploded. But back to New York,when she was really literally
just off the boat, the oneperson who didn't make fun and

(12:22):
who was kind to her was MaeCorbett. A girl who sat in the
back of the classroom with mymother and who apparently, based
on what my mother told me andbased on what Mae wrote in her
autograph album compared to whatthe other kids wrote, Mae was
just kind and interested in mymother as a person and

(12:43):
apparently listened to her asbest she could decipher what my
mother had to say. And Mae wasin the back of the room with my
mom because Mae was the AfricanAmerican kid in the class.
And Jordan, that experiencestayed with my mother forever.
What does it mean to listen tosomebody who needs to be

(13:03):
listened to? And of course,there's also what does it mean
to both be kind of the outcastsin a classroom? Debbie's mother,

a refugee from Nazi Germany, knew exactly
how much those two experiencesmeant. That lesson passed down
to Debbie became a core part ofwho she is. It's one thing to
form an opinion and to take aside, but before you do, you
have to listen and you have totruly understand.

It is a positive thing, I think, to realize how
important it is to listen topeople and to be open to people.
And I should say that the otherperson who had a great influence
on me in those early days washer mother, my grandmother, who
spoke in a different accent, aPolish accent because that's
where she was from originally.And my grandmother too just,

(13:52):
they just both loved life. Theywere so grateful to be here in
this country and they just wereopen to people and to living. It
was a really these were reallygood models.
Well, anyway, there had been abirthday cake. Auntie Chris had

(14:16):
made it too with frosting andcandles on it. Barbara
Buckingham had given Helen agame of parcheesi, which was fun
to play because they tried itout after summer. If only there
was someone else besides Barbarato play it with though. Barbara
wasn't really much use.
She kept saying, I do like thisgame I gave you, don't you? And
finally, when Helen got tired ofsaying yes and said no and

(14:38):
shoved the board over so theround colored counters danced
out of their places, Barbarabegan to cry like a baby and
said she wanted to go home. Thatwas the trouble with Barbara.
She was always like that. Ofcourse, she was pretty with long
curls like Susan's, only notquite so golden and she was
nearly a year younger than Helenand went to a private school.

(14:59):
What was more, she was spoiledand had what Helen's father had
once called a sheltered life. Itwas true that Barbara's mother
never would let her do excitingthings. She couldn't even ride
her bicycle except around theblock. But then Barbara never
wanted to do much because shewas scared to cross the road. It
was a great pity.
Still, Helen had lived with theBuckingham's for a while until

(15:22):
auntie Chris had come and nowthat Helen had turned into the
funny guy at school, Barbara washer only real friend and true
friendship was a serious thing.You had to put up with a great
deal for the sake of friendship.

Debbie's passage is from the funny guy by
Grace Allen Hobart published in1955. Debbie felt a keen
connection with the character ofHelen, the girl who was open
enough to appreciate Barbaradespite all those oddities and
differences. At its core, thefunny guy deals with the
ambiguities of friendship and ofbeing an outsider in a way that

(16:00):
feels as applicable to Debbienow as it did decades ago.

Everything about that book to me then and now,
because I did reread it lastweek, it is contemporary. The
way the funny girl feels aboutbeing an outcast. How angry she
is at the people who make fun ofher. Oh, just all of her
adventures. She gets in lots oftrouble.

(16:29):
Helen is the odd girl out andit's because, you know, in part
kids are cruel and Helen doessome odd things, but Helen does
some odd things becausesomething has happened to her.
So I wasn't the odd girl outwhen I was a girl, but I also
wasn't the cool girl. So myheart went out to Helen. I also
appreciated her and still do herhijinks. They kinda reminded me

(16:54):
of what many years later mymother used to say, I have two
boys.
And, you know, sometimes theywould my boys were good, but
they weren't that good. Youknow, they would get in trouble.
My mother would say, oh, Debbie,you don't want him to be too
good. I guess it's a way ofsaying you want him to have some
spirit.

Yeah. That's right.

Yeah. So I love this book and upon rereading it,
I loved it all the more. It hasstood the test of time for me
because of the I think you couldhear, I hope, there's a
poignancy and then there'shumor. All wrapped up really on
every page. All of heradventures just felt so

(17:37):
contemporary to me.
And again, a book from oldentimes. And in your home, did you

know you wanted to write? Like, I feel
like there's two kinds ofauthors. There's authors who
discover it later on andeverything, oh, was telling me,
oh, yeah. That makes sense. Youknow?
Or you were just kind of alwayswriting, journaling, doing
things growing up, and I'mwondering which or some other
option that was for you.

When I was a girl, I knew I really wanted to write.
Although, if you then look atthe arc of my life, I didn't
come back to writing for manymany years. I didn't grow up and
become a writer until I'd grownup and done other things. I kept
a diary, but it was you can'tsay I really journaled. I wasn't

(18:23):
that interested in, I guess, inmy own life and what I was
doing.
My own my diary is one of thosediaries that has five years on
each page and you have aboutfive lines for each day. But
what I did was write books,picture books. And I was very
influenced by the ScholasticBook Club that we got to engage

(18:45):
in at school. Yeah. You sent inyour money and you got your
books and that's where I got thefunny guy from.
We can fast forward to manyyears later when I did finally
become a writer. And my firstbook that was in the Scholastic
Book Club was the one youngadult novel that I've ever
written called Imperfect Spiral.And I just was so happy that it

(19:09):
was taken by the Scholastic BookClub. And since then, they've
taken a couple others. But notonly that, Imperfect Spiral was
tear jerker of the month Oh.
Back in 02/2013 and 02/2014. Andif you ordered Imperfect Spiral,
you also got a special littlepackage of tissues to wipe your

(19:29):
tears.

Get out of here. I love that.

Yes. As you were reading my book. Now, I'll tell
you another great thing about mymom and that is that she saved
several of my picture books. Andyou can't see them here on the
podcast.

Right.

But when I go into schools and show them You bring
them? Yo, absolutely.Absolutely. In part because if
kids look at my little booksfrom then Mhmm. They know that
they too can grow up and becomeauthors if I do.

Yeah. It's such a cool thing about now,
like, just author visits and theidea that just being a writer
feels like possible. You know?Because I think in those Yeah.
It just felt so but sounds likeyou actually thought it might
have been possible when you wereyounger.
That possibility looked verypromising for Debbie in college

(20:23):
where she wrote for the schoolpaper, founded a magazine, and
dreamed of reporting as anoverseas journalist like Laura
Lewis. But then abruptly, sheheaded to law school incredibly
not due to the pressure from herparents.

A friend was taking the LSAT and so I did too. And I
did really well. And my family,our family, we had no lawyers. I
have to tell you, I didn't evenknow what lawyers did. So I
applied to law schools because Iwas aware that you could have a
law degree and do other thingswith it.
So I thought I'm gonna go get alaw degree and, you know, I can

(21:03):
still be a writer. I can still

be Laura Lewis. Debbie earned her law
degree and a master's inpolitics and then went on to
jobs in the senate, at a lawfirm, and eventually as chief
editor at a legal journal. Itwas all worlds away from
children's books, And yet, shewas honing the skills that now
make her stand out as an author.

You know, people like to make fun of legalese and
how lawyers write and, you know,how poorly they write. And it is
true. There is legalese, youknow, bad writing, writing that
obfuscates. Right. But there'salso very good writing that you
can learn and do in law.

(21:46):
It's not like writing forchildren, but you have to create
a narrative if you're writing abrief. If you're, you know,
writing a brief to file in acourt, even if you're writing a
memo on something for a client,it's best to create a narrative.
What's the story here? The otherthing that was so drilled into
me was the importance ofexhaustive research. Not so

(22:09):
exhaustive that you never get tothe end because that can happen
too.
Whether you're a lawyer or awriter, you can just be
researching and and never getaround to actually writing what
you need to write. Yeah. Ifyou're going to be asserting
something, your sources shouldnot only be reliable, but they
should be duplicative.

Okay. If you know that Debbie's breakout
picture book was her 2019 bio ofRuth Bader Ginsburg, then you're
probably thinking, well, thismust have been an easy career
transition from legal eagleeditor to supreme court
biographer. But the truth, asusual, is messier. Debbie
actually wrote nonfiction schoolbooks for fifteen years before I

(22:50):
Dissent finally dropped. Andalthough she admires RBG's
accomplishments, she doesn'tadmire the way that legal
training teaches people toapproach disagreements as zero
sum.
As in our side is right, theirside is wrong, and there's no
room for middle ground.

You can't say I burst on the scene.

No. But I think people think that
sometimes. You know what I mean?It's like you'll have this one
I'm guessing for you, it'd beear of goodbyes, but also, like,
I dissent was, like I dissent.You know, was probably, like so
I think a lot of times people dohave that impression much like
with any profession anywhere.
It's usually people have beenplotting along and then, you
know, have been working hard andhave a moment and

It's true.

People who know you know you've been
working along and people whodon't think, where'd she come
from?

Yes. Right. Oh, oh, she wrote a book about Ruth
Bader Ginsburg.

Oh, yeah. Write about RBG, and then you
get to know. Like like althoughI am curious, how did that come
to be? Like, you just knew abouther or wanted to or is it just
your curiosity, which I guessit's like coming to fruition
again?

I knew about her. And this was the time when there
was already I don't know if itwas yet called the notorious RBG
blog. It it started as a blog.

It was like around that time everything was
happening. Yeah.

Well, because she was I mean, things were
happening and she was writingand voicing some important
dissents. And there was aneditor at Simon and Schuster who
was also interested in RuthBader Ginsburg. And there was no
book for well, there wascertainly no picture book about

(24:30):
her. I'm sure there was a schooland library book about her. So,
you know, my agent knew that Iwould just love to write this
book and she like rushed to me.
I mean, mostly, she's inCalifornia. I'm on the East
Coast. So mostly, we go back andforth by email and text. And
just as fast as I could wrote aproposal, but I'm talking about

(24:52):
like an email proposal, which isnot usually how you'd Right. Get
a picture book published.
Sure. Usually, you write thewhole thing. But I was so
excited and I this idea for ofdescent as the through line came
to me very quickly. And my agentloved it. My editor loved it.

(25:12):
And we were off and running. Oh.It was a great experience as you
can imagine.

Yeah. I mean, when you think about that
through line, obviously, in inher life, do you see that, like,
parallel, or do you see, like, aseeking looking for truth,
looking for right and wrong? Doyou are you also, like, very
deep in your convictions, wouldyou say, in that way of like
having a strong sense of whatis, you know, right and wrong?

Well, that's an interesting question to ask me
because probably one of thereasons that I wasn't meant to
be a lawyer or at least alitigator is that I tend to
focus on both sides, not oneside. And I actually think that

(25:57):
in at least some of my writing,I am presenting the notion that
it's very rare for a person tojust be one thing, good, bad,
not unheard of. But it's rare.And most issues, most things
that matter are not so black andwhite. And this is not to say I

(26:20):
know I realized that that cansound wishy washy and a lack of
conviction.
And I would not describe myselfthat way and I don't advocate
that. But I do advocate forunderstanding that other people
may think different from how youthink and that issues can be

(26:43):
frequently complicated. Thereare multiple sides. Not to say
that we shouldn't take sides,and there's a famous quote by
Elie Wiesel that says, we mustalways take sides. To not take
sides in the face of oppressionis to side with the oppressor,
not the victim.
But before you take sides, youreally wanna see all of the

(27:05):
sides. This has been on my mindbecause, well, apart from just
everything in the world. But forexample, in writing a dangerous
idea about the scopes trial, Ihope I enable the readers, kids
and adults to see that evenWilliam Jennings Bryan who is I

(27:25):
don't wanna say the bad guy, butwho is the person who spreads
nonsense about evolution, makesthings up about science, is just
he is the disinformationspreader of his day when it
comes to science and evolutionin particular. But there are

(27:46):
multiple facets to him. And ifyou don't understand that,
you're not gonna understand, forexample, how he came to be so
powerful, how as a speaker, asan entertainer, oh my gosh.
I mean, it's like he created hisown social media platform, if
that sounds familiar to you.

That's true. You did like, when I read
it, unless you know history. Youdon't necessarily know when
you're reading it who's going tobe, which lawyer, whose
background you're reading aboutas you're sort of like, it could
unfold as a mystery to you. ButI I literally went back and
checked to see because it's avery positive portrayal of him,
you know, or you you see thesesides to him

Early on.

Early on. I'm like, wait. Hold on. Let me
go back. Let me double like,check my notes, you know, of
what I remember of the trial.
Yeah. But you are presenting

That's right.

Like, people believe what they believe
for any reason.

Yes. And I don't think you can really fight
disinformation unless you knowwhere it comes from.

Y'all remember at the top of the
interview when I said thatDebbie called me to share some
additional thoughts? Well, thisis one of those places, and she
sent me this voice memo that Ireally wanted to include.

I am gently trying to show kids and adults that
there's usually more to know.Our media environment, our
political polarization, oursocial splintering, I'm afraid
they all contribute to thissense that the way to engage in
debate is to body slam those wedisagree with. I wish I had a

(29:17):
good suggestion for how toimprove on this culture. My one
small proposition is that we allread more broadly. And in my
opinion, we should prioritizesources that include curation,
you know, editing.
I also hope readers of all agescome to understand the allure of
disinformation, especially whenit simplifies difficult

(29:39):
questions and debates. Look, ifsomething sounds deliciously
outrageous, investigate further.If you hear or read something
from one source, don't stopthere.

That misinformation is not new. It's
always been there, woven intothe histories we write and the
stories we pass on. And Iwondered if as a writer for
children, Debbie thought herreaders were able to separate
the true stories from thedishonest ones. Do you feel like
when you're speaking with do youhave any, like, I guess,
examples maybe of when you'respeaking with kids? Because I

(30:15):
think kids sometimes, they gofrom having, like, the greatest
amount of curiosity ever to,like, high school where they
really know everything and maybehave a strong conviction, but
not as well researched.
Especially in today's day andage, you know, you really have
to, like, be so careful. Haveyou sort of found any
interesting conversations withkids around that area of, like,

(30:37):
uncertainty or, like, holdingthat space for uncertainty?

I think that in elementary school, kids hold the
space for uncertainty. That's anice way to put it. And then I
found, like most recently, I didsomething at a local high school
with a dangerous idea, and itwas gratifying to see that as
well among the high schoolersthat I was speaking to.

(31:01):
Everything was up in the airwhen you're in middle school.
One day, you're gonna think youknow everything and the next
day, you're gonna think youdon't know anything.
So as long as we keep havingbooks and teachers and
conversations about thecomplexity of the world with
these students and let them talkamong themselves, then I'm not
too worried about thatinterregnum in between

(31:25):
elementary school and highschool.

What made high the high school visit
gratifying?

I just felt sort of a leaning in type of interest,
which, you know, you never knowwhether to expect that when
you're talking about historicalevents. That alone made it
gratifying.

Oh my gosh. I can imagine. And to that
point, I know that you got to doa lot of school visits with your
mom around your book, The Yearof Goodbyes, which if we haven't
mentioned it, it was writtenabout her experience the year
before escaping Nazi Germany.And I don't know. You must have
some interesting stories fromthose visits.
Yes.

You can imagine being in a classroom with my
mother. She didn't wanna do thepresentation. I would do a
presentation about the year ofgoodbyes. And then when it comes
to question time, of course,some kids wanna know about being
a writer. But really, all thehands would go up to ask my
mother questions like, it wasalways somebody asked, did you

(32:22):
see Hitler?
And of course and the answer, Ishouldn't say of course, but the
answer was yes. We had to go ona field trip downtown where he
was giving a big speech at a bigrally and there he was way off
in the distance. I think thekids found that very satisfying.
Really a piece of history Yeah.

That, you know, my mother represented.
Debbie's work encourages all ofher readers to stay curious, to
embrace the gray areas. And shereminds us that both things can
be true. That complexity doesn'tweaken conviction, it deepens
it. When you're writing, are yousort of always thinking about if

(33:00):
you're writing about somethingof the past, are you always
thinking about its applicationto the present?
Obviously, you had the epilogueand a dangerous idea that does
sort of point to that. But areyou sort of considering that
people look back a little bit tobe able to better understand our
our current times?

Always. Always. I don't think I would write a non
fiction about the past, abouthistory, or historical figures
if I couldn't bring them to theworld of our of readers today.
Yes. In a dangerous idea,several years ago, I wrote this
book called Soldier's Song aboutthis thing that happened after

(33:38):
one of the worst battles.
Of course, they were allterrible. Of the civil war in
Fredericksburg when the twosides, the confederates were on
one side of the RappahannockRiver, The union soldiers who
had lost were on the other, andthey hated each other. They just
had this terrible, awful, bloodybattle, and the union lost. And
then, you know, at night,somebody started playing the

(34:01):
greatest pop song of the day,Home Sweet Home, which I won't
sing for you. You can't though.
No. And then the other sidejoined in. And at the end,
there's cheering. And, you know,earlier in the day, they were
killing each other. And the nextday, they were gonna be back to
wanting to kill each otheragain.

(34:22):
And even that, I mean, I verymuch had today's readers in mind
because really one of the pointsI wanted to make in writing that
story is that everybody issomebody's son, daughter,
brother, lover, sister,something. Just let's remember

(34:43):
that even our so called enemiesare human beings just like us
with people that they love orthat love them. That may not
sound like something that hasanything to do with this story,
A Soldier's Song, but it haseverything to do with it. And I
think it's very plain in thatbook, this point that I'm trying

(35:04):
to make. I was

just wondering if there have been any
like moments that kinda standout with kids or, like, with any
of your readers that bringthings full circle for you or
have sort of make you realizethat, oh, yeah. They did they
did get what I was trying to dowith this having things echo or
rhyme with the present.

I would say that the school visits that I did
with Ida sent Ruth BaderGinsburg makes her mark brought
that home. Now, is it because alot of the kids already knew
about RBG from their ownparents? There may have been
some of that. But, you know, Ilike to think that the book with

(35:44):
its repetition, with its themeof it's okay to disagree.
Disagreeing, not doing somethingthat you don't wanna be doing
because it's wrong, doesn't makeyou a bad or a disagreeable
person.
And the kids, I mean, I I can'tthink of one particular school
visit where I thought, oh, thisis so great. They really get it.

(36:06):
Because honestly, they all gotit.

Yeah.

They all got it. I think in part because for kids,
I mean, you're alwaysdisagreeing when people are
telling you to do things.

They're like, I dissent every day. I
never I relate.

Yes. Yes.

And so

then to see that somebody who turned it into
making good for the world atlarge, it's very exciting. And
so not only was did I have thissense of, oh, yeah. They really
got it. I also would have thesense of excitement because they
were excited too. Yeah.

(36:41):
So there's my school visit storyand and gratitude.

Yeah. I like that. And it is true that I
could see how that would relateto all kids too. Yeah. It's
funny.
They're like, oh, yeah. This isthis works for me. This is what
I'm doing all the time.

Yes.

Do you feel like elements of your,
Jewishness, your values, or whathave you inform your writing or
the way in which you approachyour the writing, your topics,
anything like that?

Yes. In a word and in a few more words. First of
all, with the texts of Judaism.They're all about struggling. I
mean, we've got rabbis overthousands of years struggling
with what's the right thing.
I mean, sometimes they'restruggling with what's the right
thing to do about some arcanepoint of Jewish law that is not

(37:31):
relevant to my life. Butsometimes, they're struggling
about what's the right thing todo and how you treat somebody in
one situation or another. Thatis so very related to this idea
that I mentioned earlier ofwanting kids and adults to
realize the many facets ofreally almost any reality and of

(37:52):
almost any question and issue.Yes. You can come out on a side
and generally the rabbis do, butthey also very frequently also
publish the dissenting rabbi'sview.
But struggle first. I think it'spositive to struggle with issues
and with thoughts. And I thinkthat when you're when I'm

(38:14):
writing, I'm also struggling notonly to say it in the best words
that I can, as clearly as I can,as well also as entertaining
because you do want people tokeep turning the pages, but also
just struggling to get it asright as I can. It has definite
roots in the kind of Jewishnessthat I grew up with or absorbed

(38:38):
and really continue to absorb.

Jewish identity isn't one size fits
all, and Debbie's readingchallenge, illuminating the
Jewish experience, reflectsthat. It's a collection of
stories that showcase therichness and diversity of Jewish
life.

Being Jewish has always been central to my life,
but not in terms of of worshipor holidays, but rather in terms
of identity. And, you know, howcould it be otherwise? Right? My
mother is a refugee from NaziGermany. But it is important to
me that people of all agesrealize that Jewishness contains

(39:22):
multitudes.
There's sorrow. I mean, mymother's story was full of
sorrow, but there's also humorand happiness and weirdness and
love and yearning andfriendship. So for my reading
challenge, I offer books thatilluminate but don't come
anywhere near exhausting, what Iconsider the multitude of Jewish

(39:44):
experience. So my challengestarts with the All of a Kind
family from back in 1912, andthen I added on three of my own
books, which are Jewish storiesin part. Jewish.
Yes.

You can find Debbie's reading challenge
and all past reading challengesat the
readingcultureculturepod.com.And this week's featured
Beanstack Librarian is onceagain Amy McMichael. Remember
that media specialist atDutchman Creek Middle School in
Rock Hill, South Carolina, whois also the lead librarian for

(40:24):
all secondary schools within herdistrict. Today, she shares the
biggest impact that Beanstackhas had on the reading culture
in her library. Within thatfirst week, I had kids just
popping in to

Amy McMichael (40:35):
tell me like, hey. I'm on a reading streak.
And I'm like, that's awesome.Like, they didn't want anything
else. They just wanted to sharetheir excitement that, you know,
I have strength and that'spretty cool.
About a couple weeks ago, I hadone individual came in, and she
told me she was on a ninety dayreading streak, which I just

(40:56):
thought was absolutely amazing.It's one of those things that
just equalizes the playing fieldbecause we're tracking minutes
and not the number of books. Sofor my advanced like, let's say
English one students who aredoing high school level courses
at the middle school levelversus my, you know, grade level

(41:17):
students or my unique pathwaystudents who are still reading
at an elementary school level.Like if they're reading, it
counts. Know, in twenty minutesof reading, fifteen minutes of
reading, an hour of reading, youknow, whatever they can do,
that's what's making thedifference.
So I actually have one of ourunique pathways, one of our
special needs students who ishas been on my top reader board

(41:40):
more than once now because he isconsistently reading and getting
that time in. And that is notsomething that probably would
have happened in the pastwithout being stuck.

This has been the reading culture, and
you've been listening to myconversation with Debbie Levy.
Again, I'm your host, JordanLloyd Bookie, and currently, I'm
reading Intermezzo by SallyRooney and The Birchbark House
by Louise Erdrich. If youenjoyed today's episode, please
show some love and give us thatfive star review. It only takes
a few seconds and it reallyhelps. This episode was produced

(42:20):
by Mel Webb, Jackie Lamport andLower Street Media and script
edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan.
To learn more about how you canhelp grow your community's
reading culture, you can checkout all of our resources at
beanstack.com. And remember tosign up for our newsletter at
the readingculturepod.comforward slash newsletter for

(42:41):
special offers and bonuscontent. Thanks for listening,
and keep reading. Hey. Thank youfor sticking around to hear this
bonus content.
Debbie talked a lot about hermom in this interview and
referenced her dad and his shipbeing torpedoed. But we didn't
get into it at the time, andDebbie wanted to add some color
there. I'm so glad she did. Andafter listening to these voice

(43:04):
memos from her, it is nosurprise that Debbie is a
student of history.

My dad had, and now I have, a fantastic scrapbook of
his time aboard a destroyerescort that crossed the Atlantic
on route to the Mediterraneanwith a convoy of other ships.
What makes the scrapbookfantastic is that it's filled
with glossy eight by tens takenby a well known war photographer
named Art Green, who wasembedded with the convoy. My

(43:32):
father was the pharmacist madeon board, not because he was a
pharmacist or doctor, butbecause that was where his
interest lay. In exchange forletting Green use the Sick Bay
as a make shift photographydarkroom, dad received from the
photographer prints of hispictures, some of which became
iconic and which we have in thisscrapbook. The ship was

(43:53):
torpedoed, essentially cut inhalf.
Art Green's photos of thedestruction are so dramatic. The
ship's doctor, at the time oftheir torpedoing, was on board a
different ship in the convoy,leaving my father as the only
quasi medical person aboard. Soaccording to the citation that
accompanied the Legion of Meritthat my father was later

(44:14):
awarded, his actions that daysaved many lives. Looking
through the scrapbook, dad wouldrecall what happened. I was
always really proud of him forearning recognition in war for
saving life, not destroyinglife.
And I was in awe of his abilityto step up and become a healer
because the circumstancesdemanded it. Also, really, this

(44:39):
scrapbook was a type of picturebook, a very serious one. Some
weeks before my father's shipwas torpedoed, the convoy was
attacked by German aircraft. Twoships were sunk, one in a
horrifying, if spectacularexplosion, again, looking at Art
Green's photography. Dad's shiprescued as many of the surviving

(45:01):
crew members as possible,fishing them out of the water
slicked in oil, which we knowfrom Art Green's photography.
Of course, my father tended tothe men this time too. But out
of the ocean also came twoGerman aviators who'd been part
of the attack and whose planeended up crashing into the sea.
These two guys were injured. Asmy dad told the story, he

(45:24):
treated their injuries too. Hefaced angry objections from some
other American crew members whoresented patching up enemies who
had just inflicted such terribleharm on their fellow Americans.
But he did the right thing. Sothis idea that no one is just
one thing, and the importance ofremembering that even those we

(45:46):
view as our enemies are also, nomatter how far they've strayed,
someone's son or brother orlover or friend. It's so
important. I remember as a kidlooking at the photograph of the
two German soldiers, patched upand ready to be transferred to a
POW camp on land, thinking howunterrifying they looked. When

(46:11):
my father and mother attendedreunions of his ship in the
nineteen seventies and nineteeneighties, the other former crew
members called him Doc, becausethat's what he became to them
there in the Mediterranean.
He would love to have reallybecome a doctor, but that's not
the way his life went.

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