October 16, 2025 • 28 mins
Welcome to one final special offering for you to round out the series recorded at Amskapi Piikani Blackfeet Nation, in current day northern Montana.
When the documentary film that culminated at Chief Mountain, Bring Them Home, was screened at the Regenerate Conference in Denver last year, while on its award-winning international film festival circuit, co-director Daniel Glick and producer Melissa Grumhaus from Thunderheart Films were there.
The film charts the decades-long story leading to the return of buffalo to the wild for the first time in over a century. And it’s narrated by Oscar-nominated Blackfeet woman, Lily Gladstone.
So in the emotion of the moment, I recorded the 25 minute Q&A with Daniel and Melissa on my phone, just for myself, and asked them afterwards if they’d be up for doing a podcast on this. Thankfully they were.
But when I listened back to the Q&A, it was all there. Succinct, in the moment, and profound – talking about the film’s story, and their own. I was able to ask a couple of the questions too, that more or less bookend it. So I checked with Melissa if she’d be happy if we just ran this, and thankfully she was.
Recorded 6 November 2024.
See photos on the episode web page, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener below.
Find more:
Film trailer, screenings & streaming.
The 18-minute short film directed by Daniel in 2016 that led to the feature film (which was also co-directed by Blackfeet filmmakers Ivan & Ivy MacDonald).
For more of the story, head to the 2-part podcast series produced on Blackfeet Country, episodes 276, Culture as Medicine, and 277, Chief Mountain.
Music:
Bring Them Home, by Foreshadow feat. Ksk'staak'iinna (Official Music Video).
Home Journey, by Semo, Ian Post (sourced on Artlist).
Regeneration, by Amelia Barden.
The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.
The RegenNarration podcast is independent, ad-free and freely available, thanks to the generous support of listeners like you. We'd love you to join us.
Become a paid subscriber to connect with your host, other listeners and exclusive benefits, on Patreon or the new Substack.
Or donate directly via the website (avoiding fees) or PayPal.
While you can also visit The RegenNarration shop. Come to an event. And please do share, rate and review the podcast.
Thanks for your support!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Song (00:00):
Call it perfect time better now than ever though.
It feels incredible to have theEddie back at home.
The future never sets up.
But gunny land, we let himroll.
This dependent couple any onthe pedestal.
They try to race it, but ourpeople think to fake it.
We never became complacent.
Now goosey told us, we patient.
We are strong because of them.
(00:21):
They are strong because of us.
Yeah, yeah.
We need to see do sitbeautiful.
Get through a free.
(01:02):
We brought them home.
Now Chief has the missing keys.
Who is on the ground?
We return what our spiritsneed.
They run the plays, we feel thebreeze.
Overcome the pain.
We heal when we see them free.
We won the battle with thefight before.
Restoration of our culture freefour.
(01:22):
Everyone has to play a part inthis view.
For our business that I'm true,we have to see it through.
AJ (03:11):
Welcome to one final special offering for you to round out
the series recorded at AmskapiPiikani Blackfeet Nation, in
current day Northern Montana.
When the documentary film thatculminated at Chief Mountain,
Bring Them Home, was screened atthe Regenerate Conference in
Denver last year, while on itsaward-winning International Film
(03:32):
Festival circuit, co-directorDaniel Glick and producer
Melissa Grumhaus fromThunderheart Films were there.
In the emotion of the moment,after the film tells the
decades-long story leading tothe return of Buffalo to the
Wild, and with it narrated byOscar-nominated Blackfeet woman
Lily Gladstone, I recorded the25-minute Q and A with Daniel
(03:53):
and Melissa on my phone.
It was just for myself, really,so I asked them afterwards if
they'd be up for doing a podcaston this.
Generously, they were.
But when I listened back to theQ and A, it was all there.
Succinct, in the moment, andprofound.
Talking about the film's storyand their own.
I was able to ask a coupleother questions too, that more
(04:14):
or less bookended it.
So I asked Melissa if she'd behappy if we just ran this, and
thankfully, she was.
And funnily enough, when Iasked her this a few weeks ago,
she was with Kim and Andrew, myguests over the last two weeks,
at the Blackfeet Nation.
I have a little disclaimer onthe sound quality, including
some quite boomy footsteps onoccasion, but I think it's
(04:36):
alright.
If you find some of thequestioners hard to pick up,
you'll likely guess what wassaid when you hear Daniel and
Melissa answering alternatively,or as well, I've written the
questions in the chaptermarkers.
If you can't access those inyour app directly, just head to
the link in the show notes.
I pressed record as the closingcredits rolled with an awesome
(04:58):
piece of music you heard at thetop.
I'll put a link to its fullversion and film clip in the
show notes.
Along with how you can see allthe story in the film.
And of course, if you want tohear about two podcast series
produced on Blackfeet Country,head to episodes of 276 and
277, Culture as medicine, andChief mountain, respectively.
(05:18):
Okay, let's head back into theDenver theater.
Questioner (05:28):
Can we talk about how Lily Gladstone came to be
involved?
Daniel (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, so Lily's Lightf.
She was born on the reservationover there in 2018 in 2012.
Um I met her in 2016.
Um a long time ago.
We started filming in 2016 andI asked her to narrate it in
2017.
So it's good timing that shegot that Oscar nomination as we
(05:55):
finished this film.
Um we I mean we always knew howgood she was, but it and when
we when I heard that she gotthat part like four years ago, I
was like, all right, she'sprobably gonna get an Oscar
nomination for that.
Um yeah, she's her cousin's init, your cousin is in the film,
and uh we know a lot of herfamily, and yes, he's she's got
(06:21):
a big heart for the Buffalo, bigheart for her people.
Questioner (06:25):
At the beginning, I was like, oh, that woman sounds
so much like Lily Gladstone.
Melissa (06:32):
Something else about that.
Uh, when Daniel and the teamwere developing the project
initially, it was not clearwhether it was going to be a
documentary or a narrative film.
And so they sort of I came onafter Lily and Ivan and Daniel,
or Ivy, and uh so Lily helpedwrite a script that we're
(06:54):
working on next.
Um, so she's been involvedsince the very beginning and
remains super committed to it.
AJ (07:01):
Firstly, I'm blown away.
That's incredible, well done.
How did you come to it, Daniel?
Daniel (07:08):
Yeah, uh yeah, 10 years ago I wouldn't have yes.
I grew up in Brooklyn, NewYork, so this is pretty far from
my origins.
Uh but I moved to Montana about10 years ago and I was hired by
a nonprofit to tell a storythat was adjacent to the
Blackfeet Reservation about oiland gas leases that the
(07:29):
Blackfeet tribe have beenfighting for 35 years in their
ancestral territory.
And um when I was there, I sawtheir buffalo.
They put their herd along thehighway in the summers, and it's
really like some people passingby, anyone going to Glacier
National Park, they'll all seethe buffalo.
(07:50):
And uh I had been wanting to doa film about buffalo for a few
years at that point, um, justbecause I wanted to spend time
with the animals.
I was always been an animallover, and when I first saw
Buffalo when I moved to Montana,probably in Yellowstone, I was
(08:12):
just I don't they stayed withme.
And then I had a dream about abuffalo talking to me, and I
don't have weird dreams likethat, so that stayed with me and
kind of created this seed.
Oh so yeah, and so I askedpermission to make a short film
(08:32):
about their buffalo drive, andthat's what we shot in 2016, and
that in that making of thatshort film, they told Sheldon,
um, who's in this one, he saidhe talked about the Elk Ivan
herd and the plans to releasethe Elk Ivan herd.
And I said, Oh, that's a soundslike an interesting story.
And nobody else has fallen it.
(08:53):
So I started it with this smallteam that we had and looked for
Blackfeet collaborators, andthank God found Ivan and Ivy
McDonald's, who are myco-directors, you know,
Blackfeet tribal members.
Um we got Blackfeet people upand down the whole project.
So that that's that's theorigin.
We started so started filmingthis one officially in 2017,
(09:19):
thinking we would be done in2018.
Uh but it was this year that wefinished it.
Questioner (09:25):
How do you continue to work with people who are
against reading Buffalo Home?
Or how do you share thisinformation?
And are there copies of thisthat we could acquire for
educational purposes and thingslike that?
Daniel (09:39):
Yeah, so the last thing first, if you take a picture of
that, it'll take you to ourwebsite and you can reach out to
us.
And uh we we are in the processof you know two-year impact
campaign where we want to putthe film in places where it
could actually make adifference, where it can try to
change, help, try to shiftopinions, soften people, open
people for Buffalo, and um andother conservation, right?
(10:03):
Other indigenous-ledconservation.
But um, so you can reach out tous.
We'll we want to help withthose kind of um that kind of
outreach.
I mean on the reservation,there's still you know, there's
still some pushback, um, but notnearly as much as there was uh
(10:25):
you know just 20 years agobefore the E initiative started.
Um I mean I think like that wewere mostly talking with people
who were supportive of theBuffalo.
So that we as a film teamdidn't experience much pushback.
I mean, we for a while weconsidered expanding the story a
little bit outside of thereservation because Montana is
(10:46):
incredibly hostile to bison.
Like the political climate ispretty opposed.
Um but then we realized okay,no, the story just needs to stay
on the reservation.
And on the reservation, thesedays, there are there's a
general openness.
Like there's concern, there'sstill some concerns, competition
(11:08):
around grass, particularly likeone or two people who are like
one of the bison rangers.
But um I think like one of theguys, Terry Tatsy, told me, um,
he's in the film at thebeginning, he's a fourth
generation cattle rancher,blackfeet, and um he said, you
(11:29):
know, everyone who has helpedlike bring the buffalo back on
the reservation have been cattleranchers.
Like they've all been ranchers,and that's there's that's where
the support is.
And he said that today thereare cattle ranchers saying, all
right, you know, if if you letuh if you I'll let the buffalo
kind of graze on my land, ifduring the winter I could bring
(11:52):
my cattle over to some triballand.
And that kind of openness neverexisted before.
Uh like 20 years ago.
He said 20 years ago neverwould have happened.
Um so I mean I think, andagain, I think some of it is
patience and time.
I mean, that's what the I thinkfor me the takeaway of the film
(12:13):
is like you have to be willingto just be patient and wait and
keep trying and keep trying andkeep trying, and there's gonna
be conflict, and um just try totry to navigate that as best you
can.
I think um change is hard, andeven like the blackfeet people
(12:34):
who have 10,000 years ofconnection to the animal was
broken for about 150, but it'sstill challenging to reconnect
for someone once who went downthe cattle ranching road pretty
hard.
Um so yeah, I think I think itreally like with a film like
this, like next year we aregonna be showing it throughout
(12:57):
Montana specifically, in cattleranching towns.
Oh, this is a sorry about that,in uh in cattle ranching towns.
And uh I imagine some peopleare gonna be like, no.
But other people will be maybea little softened by it.
It's like though you can't getthe ones who are the hard and
(13:19):
closed nose, but you can try toget the people who are a little
softer or who are not as rigid,and then just kind of hammer,
chip away at it, and just Ithink that's it.
I don't know what do you have.
That was a long one, sorry.
Melissa (13:34):
That was good.
Uh I'll just add that we are inthe process of hiring an
indigenous curriculum developerto get it into schools.
We're talking to the Bureau ofIndian Education about getting
it into schools.
Um, we're showing it to theentire EPA, we're working on
showing it to the entireDepartment of Interior.
(13:55):
We are showing it to parts ofthe Department of Agriculture, I
believe.
And really, and yay, yay.
Uh and also it's being used inmeetings like this all around
with non-native led conservationtype organizations as a way to
(14:18):
really help people understandwhat Indigenous-led conservation
looks like.
And you know, just as one pieceof this whole story.
But we've been told by a lot ofuh with a lot of feedback that
it's super helpful for people tohelp understand why it's so
important.
Daniel (14:36):
Yeah, the patience piece, I can't emphasize that
enough.
Questioner (14:40):
But this, I think this is just so amazing, and I'm
kind of curious.
Is it been a year pant thatthey've been out there?
Daniel (14:48):
Yeah, so they they put them out last June, July.
Ultimately, they all went backto the center.
Um so what happened was this itwas like really last minute
that they released them.
Like it was wait, wait, wait,wait, wait.
Okay, let's do it like in amonth and then a week.
Uh and so they just took thatleap of faith not knowing what
(15:08):
was gonna happen.
And so and the buffalo were outthere real deep into this for a
long time.
But the that whole area bordersCanada and it borders like a
bunch of highways on the east.
And then beyond that, there's abison ranch, a bison ranch
owned by a billionaire fromChicago who put up a giant fence
(15:29):
that nothing can get through.
Um, and so the buffalo, I thinkfor different reasons.
Some of them went north intoCanada, and the cattle ranchers
there threatened to kill them.
Um and then the then some ofthem kind of kept going east,
but there's highways there.
They, you know, they're goinginto a different environment.
(15:49):
Like they know how to survivein the woods.
They did it for millennia, butthey're not used to it yet.
And so all of them ultimatelykind of made their way back to
the to the rest of the herd, butthey're they've been prepping
this whole year for the nextrelease, the next route.
So they've they're fencing theborder with Canada and they're
(16:11):
fencing on the east side so thatthe buffalo will be encouraged
to explore the one million acresof glacier that's right there
and get accustomed to living inthe woods again.
It takes a while.
I think, yeah, that they theywanted to, they're a planner
line, but it's really, reallyrugged for running up there, and
(16:32):
you only get like four monthswithout snow, and it's poor.
I talked to one of the guys,heath, who adopted the orphan
buffalo calf.
He's been fencing, he wasfencing up there, he's like, oh
my god, it sucks.
It's like really hard in the inthe bulldozer, in the
excavator, just constant kind ofmaking way, but they they've
(16:54):
been they've been hitting it,they've been going at it, and
what they said, what one of thetribal councilmen told me, yeah,
look, it's looking like nextyear.
I mean, it could be anotherfeud, you never really know, but
they are moving.
Like they're they're moving inthat direction.
And they learn from this firststep.
I mean, the first week was thehardest, it's the scariest.
(17:14):
That's why it took so long.
My mom was a teacher and shesaid, no one is raising their
hands, just wait like twominutes until it's excruciating.
And then someone will raisetheir hands.
Questioner (17:27):
Are they still leasing out land to cattle
ranchers or have they stoppeddoing that?
Daniel (17:34):
Uh well, I mean in in the Chief Mountain area, they're
not leasing for cattleranchers, but everywhere else in
the reservation are.
Yeah, I mean that becausethere's not a lot of sources of
income.
And that's one that they that'sreliable.
Melissa (17:51):
The land that was set aside by Chief Mountain is a
temporary thing, and so they'reworking right now with a lot of
partners to figure out how theycan afford to do that forever
going forward with differentoptions.
Questioner (18:07):
They should be able to sell some to make some money
back.
So that's why I'm having peopleunderstand why it's not
financially happy.
That low instead.
Daniel (18:21):
But no, that's true.
I mean, they are they do sellsome of the like the tribal
herb, they do market theanimals.
Um, I think it's it's some ofit is has been a learning
process and um challenges of ofbalancing the numbers and
figuring out what the carryingcapacity of the land can be.
(18:41):
But then they they aremarketing the animals to try to
make it sustainable for thattribal herd, but they really but
for the wild herd, they theyreally just want to let it be
wildlife.
Like that's they don't want tomarket those ones.
But the tribal herd, they'retrying to make that sustainable.
And I think that they'refinding success.
Like they they're I thinkthere's more demand now than
(19:04):
there is supply.
So they have like really goodturkey, like they make black
beat turkey.
Questioner (19:10):
Is brucellosis a problem in the picture?
Daniel (19:14):
Brucellosis is not a problem on the blackbeat
reservation.
I mean, the and all of thewildlife biologists I've talked
to is like a red herring.
It's never been proven to gofrom buffalo to cattle.
I mean, it was given to buffalofrom cattle originally.
Um and elk are way more likelyto transmit it to cattle than
(19:35):
bison are, and that's proven.
And so um, yeah, lack ofreservation, not an issue.
Like it's what it is iscompetition for grass.
And that's I think that's whatit is, I think, anywhere.
But brucinosis is just anotherexcuse and some kind of fear
tactic, I think.
Questioner (19:54):
Yeah, I'm curious about the relationships of the
national parks in theconversation about that and what
it would look like.
I know what the end we thoughtthey were very supportive, but
what did that look like to startwith having?
Daniel (20:07):
Yeah, I mean, like 30 years ago, the the national
parks were like, no, we don'twant bison.
Um glacier was like that.
Um but ever but ever since wewere up there, Glacier's been
like, when you're ready, likeit's like we don't like
Glacier's perspective was wedon't want to introduce bison.
(20:27):
That's like too difficult, toomuch red tape.
But if you introduce bison onyour on the tribal land and they
roam into glacier, that'sgreat.
Like that's fine with us.
And so they're they're verysupportive now, very, very
supportive.
And so is Waterton Lakes, uh,which borders Glacier in Canada.
And so once these buffalo getout to the mountains, they can
(20:49):
they'll be able to roam up intoWaterton into Canada too and
come back down.
So very supportive now.
Melissa (20:57):
I'll just say not all Park Service is super supportive
of this, and actually the filmis being used to help educate
some others in the Park Servicewho where they are trying to
bring bison back, and the ParkService isn't super excited
about that.
So hopefully it'll help.
AJ (21:15):
I'm curious for you both what what the most moving thing
in the whole experience has beenfor you.
Melissa (21:24):
It's like saying pick your favorite.
AJ (21:26):
Yeah.
Melissa (21:30):
I think I think the most meaningful thing once it
was finished for me was hearingfrom the elders how appealing it
was for them to see the filmand how they really want every
child to see this film, to knowthat there's a different way of
life, that there's a there's adifferent path they could
choose, other from drugs, andyou know, to help them with
(21:53):
their mental health, whatever itis, um, and to see the
beautiful landscape in whichthey live, and to see, to be
reconnected to that animal thatis a huge part of them.
And so to get that feedbackfrom the elders was everything.
Daniel (22:11):
I think for me it was also when the film was done when
we showed it in Browning forthe first time.
Um there were like, I don'tknow, at least 500 people,
evidence is a thousand.
So there's a lot of communitymembers who were there.
There was a big arbor andhundreds and hundreds of
community members.
And when we got to the end ofthe film and it said, the tribe
(22:36):
set aside more land for thebuffalo, people applauded.
And then when it said they'regonna put out the rest of the
herd in 2024, people applauded.
And that that to me was butlike I I that was the biggest
kind of emotional feeling wasoh, okay, this this both the
(22:56):
community is supportive of thisand and they're responding to
the emotion of the film, they'refeeling there.
It was uh, yeah, that was justreally wonderful to see the
support of the community, hereto hear the support of the
community, where knowing 20years ago most people wouldn't
(23:18):
have done, most people wouldn'thave had that enthusiasm,
probably wouldn't have come into see the film or not.
Questioner (23:25):
I started by the uh the irony of sensing in a wild
bird, uh at least not reading.
Um I'm curious uh what theengagement with those Canadian
ranchers and that the Bisonrancher.
Uh, and I think there's afuture where those lenses might
(23:46):
come down.
Daniel (23:49):
I think, I think, I don't know about the Canadian
ranchers.
I mean, they're just prettyhostile.
I think there's some attemptsat communication with some of
the nonprofit partners of theBlackfeet.
The billionaire ranchers kindof a jerk.
Um he's old, and so maybe whenhe moves on, his kids might be a
(24:10):
little more friendly.
And like he offered to sell itto the Blackfeet at like way
over market.
And there is, I think there isa future maybe when fences come
down, but it would be a while.
I think it's just baby stuff.
Um it's been so long since wildbuffalo groamed there, so it
(24:31):
would just take a while toslowly rebuild the land mass,
like to for the tribe to buyback more land, or because
that's a thing, they have to buyback the land that was taken
from them.
Um and so I think it's just aslow process.
Maybe someday, but it mighttake generations.
Questioner (24:53):
I don't want to take up too much time, but I just
want to say thank you for thefilm.
I'm from the Winnebago tribe inNebraska, and I did take care
of uh our buffalo work for abouttwo years.
And it is a lot of work.
But more importantly, theeducational aspect of your film,
what kind of deals with thatconnection between the buffalo
and the two differenttransformations how they said
(25:16):
that they do have available,which that's how we deal with
the buffalo as well.
So um it's really a goodeducational film for anybody
that's not familiar with kind ofhow different tribes deal with,
you know, trying to get theirbuffalo back home.
And uh it really hits home toowatching this because we're
getting uh a dozen uh Buffalofrom Yellow Scope next week
(25:39):
before our track.
So I just wanted to thank youfor the film and you didn't take
the album.
Daniel (25:45):
Well we'll we'll hang out here.
Uh yeah, one final thing.
If you have any people in yourorbits, if you know places where
this film could be useful aseducational tools, whether it's
on a reservation or not, orwhether it's a tribal
organization or not.
We are offering the film forfree to all tribal groups, all
(26:09):
native folks.
Please reach out to us andinquire.
We want the film to help growthis effort to bring bison back.
Melissa (26:22):
I was just gonna say in response to your comment that
uh we showed this film at a foodsovereignty conference a couple
weeks ago, and a woman theresaid the difference between an
indigenous told story aboutBuffalo is that it tells the
story of the heart.
And so I think that's similarto what you're saying.
(26:44):
Hopefully, it came across.
Um is it available for rentsfor people who want to see it?
Not yet.
Right now we're doing filmfestivals across the country and
private screens like this, andwe're working on distribution
and possibly a limitedtheatrical release.
Um, but we've got to get thatsettled first, and then
hopefully it'll be widelyavailable.
Daniel (27:06):
Maybe in a year.
Follow us on the social mediasto know when Thunderheart films.
Thank you, and so we can seethe video.
Call it perfect time better now than ever though.
It feels incredible to have theEddie back at home.
The future never sets up.
But gunny land, we let himroll.
This dependent couple any onthe pedestal.
They try to race it, but ourpeople think to fake it.
We never became complacent.
Now goosey told us, we patient.
We are strong because of them.
(00:21):
They are strong because of us.
Yeah, yeah.
We need to see do sitbeautiful.
Get through a free.
(01:02):
We brought them home.
Now Chief has the missing keys.
Who is on the ground?
We return what our spiritsneed.
They run the plays, we feel thebreeze.
Overcome the pain.
We heal when we see them free.
We won the battle with thefight before.
Restoration of our culture freefour.
(01:22):
Everyone has to play a part inthis view.
For our business that I'm true,we have to see it through.
AJ (03:11):
Welcome to one final special offering for you to round out
the series recorded at AmskapiPiikani Blackfeet Nation, in
current day Northern Montana.
When the documentary film thatculminated at Chief Mountain,
Bring Them Home, was screened atthe Regenerate Conference in
Denver last year, while on itsaward-winning International Film
(03:32):
Festival circuit, co-directorDaniel Glick and producer
Melissa Grumhaus fromThunderheart Films were there.
In the emotion of the moment,after the film tells the
decades-long story leading tothe return of Buffalo to the
Wild, and with it narrated byOscar-nominated Blackfeet woman
Lily Gladstone, I recorded the25-minute Q and A with Daniel
(03:53):
and Melissa on my phone.
It was just for myself, really,so I asked them afterwards if
they'd be up for doing a podcaston this.
Generously, they were.
But when I listened back to theQ and A, it was all there.
Succinct, in the moment, andprofound.
Talking about the film's storyand their own.
I was able to ask a coupleother questions too, that more
(04:14):
or less bookended it.
So I asked Melissa if she'd behappy if we just ran this, and
thankfully, she was.
And funnily enough, when Iasked her this a few weeks ago,
she was with Kim and Andrew, myguests over the last two weeks,
at the Blackfeet Nation.
I have a little disclaimer onthe sound quality, including
some quite boomy footsteps onoccasion, but I think it's
(04:36):
alright.
If you find some of thequestioners hard to pick up,
you'll likely guess what wassaid when you hear Daniel and
Melissa answering alternatively,or as well, I've written the
questions in the chaptermarkers.
If you can't access those inyour app directly, just head to
the link in the show notes.
I pressed record as the closingcredits rolled with an awesome
(04:58):
piece of music you heard at thetop.
I'll put a link to its fullversion and film clip in the
show notes.
Along with how you can see allthe story in the film.
And of course, if you want tohear about two podcast series
produced on Blackfeet Country,head to episodes of 276 and
277, Culture as medicine, andChief mountain, respectively.
(05:18):
Okay, let's head back into theDenver theater.
Questioner (05:28):
Can we talk about how Lily Gladstone came to be
involved?
Daniel (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, so Lily's Lightf.
She was born on the reservationover there in 2018 in 2012.
Um I met her in 2016.
Um a long time ago.
We started filming in 2016 andI asked her to narrate it in
2017.
So it's good timing that shegot that Oscar nomination as we
(05:55):
finished this film.
Um we I mean we always knew howgood she was, but it and when
we when I heard that she gotthat part like four years ago, I
was like, all right, she'sprobably gonna get an Oscar
nomination for that.
Um yeah, she's her cousin's init, your cousin is in the film,
and uh we know a lot of herfamily, and yes, he's she's got
(06:21):
a big heart for the Buffalo, bigheart for her people.
Questioner (06:25):
At the beginning, I was like, oh, that woman sounds
so much like Lily Gladstone.
Melissa (06:32):
Something else about that.
Uh, when Daniel and the teamwere developing the project
initially, it was not clearwhether it was going to be a
documentary or a narrative film.
And so they sort of I came onafter Lily and Ivan and Daniel,
or Ivy, and uh so Lily helpedwrite a script that we're
(06:54):
working on next.
Um, so she's been involvedsince the very beginning and
remains super committed to it.
AJ (07:01):
Firstly, I'm blown away.
That's incredible, well done.
How did you come to it, Daniel?
Daniel (07:08):
Yeah, uh yeah, 10 years ago I wouldn't have yes.
I grew up in Brooklyn, NewYork, so this is pretty far from
my origins.
Uh but I moved to Montana about10 years ago and I was hired by
a nonprofit to tell a storythat was adjacent to the
Blackfeet Reservation about oiland gas leases that the
(07:29):
Blackfeet tribe have beenfighting for 35 years in their
ancestral territory.
And um when I was there, I sawtheir buffalo.
They put their herd along thehighway in the summers, and it's
really like some people passingby, anyone going to Glacier
National Park, they'll all seethe buffalo.
(07:50):
And uh I had been wanting to doa film about buffalo for a few
years at that point, um, justbecause I wanted to spend time
with the animals.
I was always been an animallover, and when I first saw
Buffalo when I moved to Montana,probably in Yellowstone, I was
(08:12):
just I don't they stayed withme.
And then I had a dream about abuffalo talking to me, and I
don't have weird dreams likethat, so that stayed with me and
kind of created this seed.
Oh so yeah, and so I askedpermission to make a short film
(08:32):
about their buffalo drive, andthat's what we shot in 2016, and
that in that making of thatshort film, they told Sheldon,
um, who's in this one, he saidhe talked about the Elk Ivan
herd and the plans to releasethe Elk Ivan herd.
And I said, Oh, that's a soundslike an interesting story.
And nobody else has fallen it.
(08:53):
So I started it with this smallteam that we had and looked for
Blackfeet collaborators, andthank God found Ivan and Ivy
McDonald's, who are myco-directors, you know,
Blackfeet tribal members.
Um we got Blackfeet people upand down the whole project.
So that that's that's theorigin.
We started so started filmingthis one officially in 2017,
(09:19):
thinking we would be done in2018.
Uh but it was this year that wefinished it.
Questioner (09:25):
How do you continue to work with people who are
against reading Buffalo Home?
Or how do you share thisinformation?
And are there copies of thisthat we could acquire for
educational purposes and thingslike that?
Daniel (09:39):
Yeah, so the last thing first, if you take a picture of
that, it'll take you to ourwebsite and you can reach out to
us.
And uh we we are in the processof you know two-year impact
campaign where we want to putthe film in places where it
could actually make adifference, where it can try to
change, help, try to shiftopinions, soften people, open
people for Buffalo, and um andother conservation, right?
(10:03):
Other indigenous-ledconservation.
But um, so you can reach out tous.
We'll we want to help withthose kind of um that kind of
outreach.
I mean on the reservation,there's still you know, there's
still some pushback, um, but notnearly as much as there was uh
(10:25):
you know just 20 years agobefore the E initiative started.
Um I mean I think like that wewere mostly talking with people
who were supportive of theBuffalo.
So that we as a film teamdidn't experience much pushback.
I mean, we for a while weconsidered expanding the story a
little bit outside of thereservation because Montana is
(10:46):
incredibly hostile to bison.
Like the political climate ispretty opposed.
Um but then we realized okay,no, the story just needs to stay
on the reservation.
And on the reservation, thesedays, there are there's a
general openness.
Like there's concern, there'sstill some concerns, competition
(11:08):
around grass, particularly likeone or two people who are like
one of the bison rangers.
But um I think like one of theguys, Terry Tatsy, told me, um,
he's in the film at thebeginning, he's a fourth
generation cattle rancher,blackfeet, and um he said, you
(11:29):
know, everyone who has helpedlike bring the buffalo back on
the reservation have been cattleranchers.
Like they've all been ranchers,and that's there's that's where
the support is.
And he said that today thereare cattle ranchers saying, all
right, you know, if if you letuh if you I'll let the buffalo
kind of graze on my land, ifduring the winter I could bring
(11:52):
my cattle over to some triballand.
And that kind of openness neverexisted before.
Uh like 20 years ago.
He said 20 years ago neverwould have happened.
Um so I mean I think, andagain, I think some of it is
patience and time.
I mean, that's what the I thinkfor me the takeaway of the film
(12:13):
is like you have to be willingto just be patient and wait and
keep trying and keep trying andkeep trying, and there's gonna
be conflict, and um just try totry to navigate that as best you
can.
I think um change is hard, andeven like the blackfeet people
(12:34):
who have 10,000 years ofconnection to the animal was
broken for about 150, but it'sstill challenging to reconnect
for someone once who went downthe cattle ranching road pretty
hard.
Um so yeah, I think I think itreally like with a film like
this, like next year we aregonna be showing it throughout
(12:57):
Montana specifically, in cattleranching towns.
Oh, this is a sorry about that,in uh in cattle ranching towns.
And uh I imagine some peopleare gonna be like, no.
But other people will be maybea little softened by it.
It's like though you can't getthe ones who are the hard and
(13:19):
closed nose, but you can try toget the people who are a little
softer or who are not as rigid,and then just kind of hammer,
chip away at it, and just Ithink that's it.
I don't know what do you have.
That was a long one, sorry.
Melissa (13:34):
That was good.
Uh I'll just add that we are inthe process of hiring an
indigenous curriculum developerto get it into schools.
We're talking to the Bureau ofIndian Education about getting
it into schools.
Um, we're showing it to theentire EPA, we're working on
showing it to the entireDepartment of Interior.
(13:55):
We are showing it to parts ofthe Department of Agriculture, I
believe.
And really, and yay, yay.
Uh and also it's being used inmeetings like this all around
with non-native led conservationtype organizations as a way to
(14:18):
really help people understandwhat Indigenous-led conservation
looks like.
And you know, just as one pieceof this whole story.
But we've been told by a lot ofuh with a lot of feedback that
it's super helpful for people tohelp understand why it's so
important.
Daniel (14:36):
Yeah, the patience piece, I can't emphasize that
enough.
Questioner (14:40):
But this, I think this is just so amazing, and I'm
kind of curious.
Is it been a year pant thatthey've been out there?
Daniel (14:48):
Yeah, so they they put them out last June, July.
Ultimately, they all went backto the center.
Um so what happened was this itwas like really last minute
that they released them.
Like it was wait, wait, wait,wait, wait.
Okay, let's do it like in amonth and then a week.
Uh and so they just took thatleap of faith not knowing what
(15:08):
was gonna happen.
And so and the buffalo were outthere real deep into this for a
long time.
But the that whole area bordersCanada and it borders like a
bunch of highways on the east.
And then beyond that, there's abison ranch, a bison ranch
owned by a billionaire fromChicago who put up a giant fence
(15:29):
that nothing can get through.
Um, and so the buffalo, I thinkfor different reasons.
Some of them went north intoCanada, and the cattle ranchers
there threatened to kill them.
Um and then the then some ofthem kind of kept going east,
but there's highways there.
They, you know, they're goinginto a different environment.
(15:49):
Like they know how to survivein the woods.
They did it for millennia, butthey're not used to it yet.
And so all of them ultimatelykind of made their way back to
the to the rest of the herd, butthey're they've been prepping
this whole year for the nextrelease, the next route.
So they've they're fencing theborder with Canada and they're
(16:11):
fencing on the east side so thatthe buffalo will be encouraged
to explore the one million acresof glacier that's right there
and get accustomed to living inthe woods again.
It takes a while.
I think, yeah, that they theywanted to, they're a planner
line, but it's really, reallyrugged for running up there, and
(16:32):
you only get like four monthswithout snow, and it's poor.
I talked to one of the guys,heath, who adopted the orphan
buffalo calf.
He's been fencing, he wasfencing up there, he's like, oh
my god, it sucks.
It's like really hard in the inthe bulldozer, in the
excavator, just constant kind ofmaking way, but they they've
(16:54):
been they've been hitting it,they've been going at it, and
what they said, what one of thetribal councilmen told me, yeah,
look, it's looking like nextyear.
I mean, it could be anotherfeud, you never really know, but
they are moving.
Like they're they're moving inthat direction.
And they learn from this firststep.
I mean, the first week was thehardest, it's the scariest.
(17:14):
That's why it took so long.
My mom was a teacher and shesaid, no one is raising their
hands, just wait like twominutes until it's excruciating.
And then someone will raisetheir hands.
Questioner (17:27):
Are they still leasing out land to cattle
ranchers or have they stoppeddoing that?
Daniel (17:34):
Uh well, I mean in in the Chief Mountain area, they're
not leasing for cattleranchers, but everywhere else in
the reservation are.
Yeah, I mean that becausethere's not a lot of sources of
income.
And that's one that they that'sreliable.
Melissa (17:51):
The land that was set aside by Chief Mountain is a
temporary thing, and so they'reworking right now with a lot of
partners to figure out how theycan afford to do that forever
going forward with differentoptions.
Questioner (18:07):
They should be able to sell some to make some money
back.
So that's why I'm having peopleunderstand why it's not
financially happy.
That low instead.
Daniel (18:21):
But no, that's true.
I mean, they are they do sellsome of the like the tribal
herb, they do market theanimals.
Um, I think it's it's some ofit is has been a learning
process and um challenges of ofbalancing the numbers and
figuring out what the carryingcapacity of the land can be.
(18:41):
But then they they aremarketing the animals to try to
make it sustainable for thattribal herd, but they really but
for the wild herd, they theyreally just want to let it be
wildlife.
Like that's they don't want tomarket those ones.
But the tribal herd, they'retrying to make that sustainable.
And I think that they'refinding success.
Like they they're I thinkthere's more demand now than
(19:04):
there is supply.
So they have like really goodturkey, like they make black
beat turkey.
Questioner (19:10):
Is brucellosis a problem in the picture?
Daniel (19:14):
Brucellosis is not a problem on the blackbeat
reservation.
I mean, the and all of thewildlife biologists I've talked
to is like a red herring.
It's never been proven to gofrom buffalo to cattle.
I mean, it was given to buffalofrom cattle originally.
Um and elk are way more likelyto transmit it to cattle than
(19:35):
bison are, and that's proven.
And so um, yeah, lack ofreservation, not an issue.
Like it's what it is iscompetition for grass.
And that's I think that's whatit is, I think, anywhere.
But brucinosis is just anotherexcuse and some kind of fear
tactic, I think.
Questioner (19:54):
Yeah, I'm curious about the relationships of the
national parks in theconversation about that and what
it would look like.
I know what the end we thoughtthey were very supportive, but
what did that look like to startwith having?
Daniel (20:07):
Yeah, I mean, like 30 years ago, the the national
parks were like, no, we don'twant bison.
Um glacier was like that.
Um but ever but ever since wewere up there, Glacier's been
like, when you're ready, likeit's like we don't like
Glacier's perspective was wedon't want to introduce bison.
(20:27):
That's like too difficult, toomuch red tape.
But if you introduce bison onyour on the tribal land and they
roam into glacier, that'sgreat.
Like that's fine with us.
And so they're they're verysupportive now, very, very
supportive.
And so is Waterton Lakes, uh,which borders Glacier in Canada.
And so once these buffalo getout to the mountains, they can
(20:49):
they'll be able to roam up intoWaterton into Canada too and
come back down.
So very supportive now.
Melissa (20:57):
I'll just say not all Park Service is super supportive
of this, and actually the filmis being used to help educate
some others in the Park Servicewho where they are trying to
bring bison back, and the ParkService isn't super excited
about that.
So hopefully it'll help.
AJ (21:15):
I'm curious for you both what what the most moving thing
in the whole experience has beenfor you.
Melissa (21:24):
It's like saying pick your favorite.
AJ (21:26):
Yeah.
Melissa (21:30):
I think I think the most meaningful thing once it
was finished for me was hearingfrom the elders how appealing it
was for them to see the filmand how they really want every
child to see this film, to knowthat there's a different way of
life, that there's a there's adifferent path they could
choose, other from drugs, andyou know, to help them with
(21:53):
their mental health, whatever itis, um, and to see the
beautiful landscape in whichthey live, and to see, to be
reconnected to that animal thatis a huge part of them.
And so to get that feedbackfrom the elders was everything.
Daniel (22:11):
I think for me it was also when the film was done when
we showed it in Browning forthe first time.
Um there were like, I don'tknow, at least 500 people,
evidence is a thousand.
So there's a lot of communitymembers who were there.
There was a big arbor andhundreds and hundreds of
community members.
And when we got to the end ofthe film and it said, the tribe
(22:36):
set aside more land for thebuffalo, people applauded.
And then when it said they'regonna put out the rest of the
herd in 2024, people applauded.
And that that to me was butlike I I that was the biggest
kind of emotional feeling wasoh, okay, this this both the
(22:56):
community is supportive of thisand and they're responding to
the emotion of the film, they'refeeling there.
It was uh, yeah, that was justreally wonderful to see the
support of the community, hereto hear the support of the
community, where knowing 20years ago most people wouldn't
(23:18):
have done, most people wouldn'thave had that enthusiasm,
probably wouldn't have come into see the film or not.
Questioner (23:25):
I started by the uh the irony of sensing in a wild
bird, uh at least not reading.
Um I'm curious uh what theengagement with those Canadian
ranchers and that the Bisonrancher.
Uh, and I think there's afuture where those lenses might
(23:46):
come down.
Daniel (23:49):
I think, I think, I don't know about the Canadian
ranchers.
I mean, they're just prettyhostile.
I think there's some attemptsat communication with some of
the nonprofit partners of theBlackfeet.
The billionaire ranchers kindof a jerk.
Um he's old, and so maybe whenhe moves on, his kids might be a
(24:10):
little more friendly.
And like he offered to sell itto the Blackfeet at like way
over market.
And there is, I think there isa future maybe when fences come
down, but it would be a while.
I think it's just baby stuff.
Um it's been so long since wildbuffalo groamed there, so it
(24:31):
would just take a while toslowly rebuild the land mass,
like to for the tribe to buyback more land, or because
that's a thing, they have to buyback the land that was taken
from them.
Um and so I think it's just aslow process.
Maybe someday, but it mighttake generations.
Questioner (24:53):
I don't want to take up too much time, but I just
want to say thank you for thefilm.
I'm from the Winnebago tribe inNebraska, and I did take care
of uh our buffalo work for abouttwo years.
And it is a lot of work.
But more importantly, theeducational aspect of your film,
what kind of deals with thatconnection between the buffalo
and the two differenttransformations how they said
(25:16):
that they do have available,which that's how we deal with
the buffalo as well.
So um it's really a goodeducational film for anybody
that's not familiar with kind ofhow different tribes deal with,
you know, trying to get theirbuffalo back home.
And uh it really hits home toowatching this because we're
getting uh a dozen uh Buffalofrom Yellow Scope next week
(25:39):
before our track.
So I just wanted to thank youfor the film and you didn't take
the album.
Daniel (25:45):
Well we'll we'll hang out here.
Uh yeah, one final thing.
If you have any people in yourorbits, if you know places where
this film could be useful aseducational tools, whether it's
on a reservation or not, orwhether it's a tribal
organization or not.
We are offering the film forfree to all tribal groups, all
(26:09):
native folks.
Please reach out to us andinquire.
We want the film to help growthis effort to bring bison back.
Melissa (26:22):
I was just gonna say in response to your comment that
uh we showed this film at a foodsovereignty conference a couple
weeks ago, and a woman theresaid the difference between an
indigenous told story aboutBuffalo is that it tells the
story of the heart.
And so I think that's similarto what you're saying.
(26:44):
Hopefully, it came across.
Um is it available for rentsfor people who want to see it?
Not yet.
Right now we're doing filmfestivals across the country and
private screens like this, andwe're working on distribution
and possibly a limitedtheatrical release.
Um, but we've got to get thatsettled first, and then
hopefully it'll be widelyavailable.
Daniel (27:06):
Maybe in a year.
Follow us on the social mediasto know when Thunderheart films.
Thank you, and so we can seethe video.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.