Social Media and Wellness: Episode 2

What exactly is "wellness" anyway? We hear it tossed about as an umbrella term covering health and fitness and diet and mental well-being and any number of topics, but what does it mean to try and achieve wellness? And what does any of it have to do with slow living?

In today's episode, Brooke and Ben dig into wellness and social media - the good, the bad, the quackery, the evidence-based and the liver-eating diets - exploring the messy mixture of influencers, algorithms and genuine well-being tools that exist in the trillion-dollar industry.

It's an interesting and fraught conversation, because not only do definitions of wellness differ greatly, as do our individual levels of access, exposure and finances, but there is a clear crossover between wellness and diet culture that muddies the waters even more. And, while some of it is undoubtedly harmful, there are many parts of the wellness industry that offer genuine help too.  

Brooke and Ben look at their own experiences with wellness influencers, as well as their own hang-ups, privileges and blind spots. 

In the reflection segment, they discuss the benefits of embracing physical discomfort, which leads to a conversation about the different kinds of discomforts we might experience and the pros and cons they offer. 

They both give a quick update on their year-long experiments (the 1% and the four-day work week), one of which is going well, the other...not so much. 

Head over to The Tortoise for the full show notes, and if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter while you're there. 

Join The Tortoise Community: https://brookemcalary.substack.com/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:01):
Is the tortoise. The podcast that digs deep. Into the
power of slow. I am your host. Brooke McAlary. And
I am joined by my life host Ben McAlary. Whoa.

S2 (00:22):
I sound like a parasite.

S1 (00:24):
Oh, no, that wasn't the intention. Okay. Yeah, just. Hi. Well,
it may be fitting for today's conversation.

S2 (00:36):
Oh, totally. Totally. I can't wait to get into it,
but I think we've should start with a bit of
a check in.

S1 (00:42):
Okay, let's do it.

S2 (00:44):
How are you feeling?

S1 (00:46):
I'm feeling. I'm feeling good. So, like, painting the picture?
We're sitting in our back room as is our want.
The fire is going. It's crackling away. I don't know
if you can hear it or not. The sun was shining. It's.
I'm drinking coffee like it's good. Life's good. Yeah.

S2 (01:03):
How about you? School holidays. It is.

S1 (01:04):
School holidays.

S2 (01:05):
So the kids are at home and.

S3 (01:08):
How dare they? We've had a.

S2 (01:09):
Busy, I think, start of the holidays as in we've.
I think we've done a lot.

S1 (01:13):
Yeah. I mean, we went away for a few days
with family and we've had a few day trips. Our
camping trip got rained out, unfortunately, which was a bit
of a bummer. Huge bummer. But you know, that's, that's
the risk with camping. Yeah. And yeah, so we filled
those days with, with other things which was really nice actually.
Went saw a movie, went for a day trip to Canberra.

(01:36):
Went to Questacon. Yep. Live in my year six Best.

S3 (01:39):
Life Questacon.

S2 (01:40):
Because our eldest never got to go to Questacon because
of COVID.

S1 (01:45):
So like a bit of context. Not everyone listening to
this podcast grew up in Sydney. Yeah, Questacon is like
our National Science Centre in Canberra, which is the capital
of Australia, which is about two hours from where we live,
and Questacon going to Questacon for at least for kids
who grew up in western Sydney in like the 90s,

(02:07):
your Year six camp was a trip to Canberra, you
went to Questacon, you went to Parliament House, you went
to the War Memorial. Yeah, and our eldest missed out
on that because of COVID. So we went for a little.

S2 (02:22):
I love little day trip.

S1 (02:23):
It was fun. It was a really fun day, actually.

S2 (02:26):
So fun. I enjoyed.

S3 (02:27):
It. Yeah.

S2 (02:29):
But that all sounds very relaxing and nice, but I
feel stressed.

S1 (02:33):
Okay. Really stressed. You're juggling, though. The.

S2 (02:37):
And I feel like school holidays. You just juggling that
one extra ball.

S1 (02:40):
As that's what I mean. You're juggling school holidays in
a way that I'm not this time around so it's
it's a bit tough.

S3 (02:48):
Yeah, I just.

S2 (02:49):
Feel really stressed. And I'm sorry. I don't feel 100% either.

S1 (02:54):
Oh, very on topic for today's episode.

S3 (02:56):
Actually, I think so.

S2 (02:59):
I think so. All right. So as you said at
the start of the show, the topics all about wellness.

S1 (03:06):
I don't think I did say that. I did you I.

S3 (03:09):
Hinted I.

S1 (03:10):
Did. But if people have read the.

S3 (03:12):
They will title. I don't know.

S2 (03:14):
So yeah wellness and we tried to record this episode
about a week or so ago.

S3 (03:21):
Before school holidays. We were trying to.

S2 (03:23):
Yeah, yeah, we were trying to get on top of things.
But what we found is when we were talking is
that wellness as a topic is just so huge and
we could take it in so many different directions that
we felt like we needed to narrow the scope of
it a little bit and just talk about wellness because
it's something we've both experience wellness and social media. Yeah.

(03:45):
And and social media wellness influencers more specifically, and how
they've infiltrated the wellness scene. Right. And how that makes
us feel.

S3 (03:56):
Yeah.

S1 (03:57):
Because when we first started talking about it, I think you,
I know I certainly felt a bit conflicted because I
have no broad issue with wellness. I have no problem
with people wanting to feel well. But even as we
started that initial conversation, it was like, Well, what's our
stance on this? Because I have a big issue with

(04:19):
some of the commercialization in the snake oil genus of it.
And yet I don't want to rubbish an entire industry. Exactly.
So that's, I think where we kind of fell apart.
So that's why we've come back for this episode 2.0.
Not that you'll ever hear the first one.

S3 (04:35):
No.

S2 (04:37):
Because yeah, it was just so, so broad and so
I mean, when you think about wellness and social media,
what immediately comes to mind for you and you can
start start this answer while I go and stoke the fire.
All right.

S1 (04:55):
What comes to mind immediately, I think, is it's negative,
to be honest. My first reaction, if you're if you're
asking about wellness and social media is like that snake oil,
excuse me, preying on people's vulnerabilities, sort of. Stereotype. And

(05:17):
I know that that's unfair. That's only that's a very
one sided way of looking at it. But that is
absolutely my first. Thought. I think if I step back
and look at my excuse me, my thoughts on wellness
more broadly, I have a much more holistic vision of
what wellness is in that it's about. Yes, physical wellness

(05:44):
to a certain extent. But inasmuch as you can separate
the two physical and mental wellness, but also spiritual wellness and,
you know, relationship wellness and self-worth, wellness. So for me,
it's it's one big picture. And I think that social
media wellness on the whole focuses very much on the physical.

(06:09):
And then probably as a secondary, the mental really.

S2 (06:14):
Yeah, I think you're probably right.

S3 (06:17):
I will say.

S1 (06:17):
Our perspectives are going to be very different because the
information that I am served up as a woman of
my age with the interests and accounts that I have
previously followed, algorithms are going to give me a hugely
different picture of wellness, you know, feeds than it will
for you. And we know this from the things that

(06:40):
you've been served over the years. Yeah. What do you think, though,
when you think social media and wellness?

S2 (06:46):
I just think that I'm being sold a product that's
that's purely what it is is is under the guise
of here's some information it's always and buy this thing right.

S1 (06:59):
So here's some information from a doctor who happens to
have their own supplement line. Yeah. Yeah.

S2 (07:04):
But not even a doctor.

S3 (07:05):
Sure.

S1 (07:07):
Sorry. A quote.

S3 (07:08):
Doctor.

S2 (07:10):
Because I just think. I cannot believe. It's just like
every man and his dog are just talking about wellness
and an aspect of wellness and what.

S1 (07:19):
Can you give me some more information.

S2 (07:21):
Okay, I'll give you an example. Liver king. Yeah.

S3 (07:25):
Yeah.

S2 (07:26):
Liver king. If you don't know who he is, he's this.

S3 (07:29):
Lucky you.

S2 (07:33):
Fitness guru who I started to follow when he spoke.
He started to talk about sort of like nose to
tail leading and specifically liver and and what and eating
like the liver, raw.

S3 (07:47):
Liver, raw.

S2 (07:47):
Liver. I guess at the start, it wasn't even.

S3 (07:50):
Royal, was it not? No.

S2 (07:52):
It was just like if you're eating liver, this is
good because it does X, Y and Z. Sure, I'm okay. Well,
I went out and bought some liver. I cooked it up.
You cooked some of it. I cook some of it.

S3 (08:02):
What happened to the rest? Good.

S4 (08:06):
Good. Chucked in the freezer and it stayed there for about.

S2 (08:10):
One and a half years until you said.

S4 (08:15):
I think it's time to.

S2 (08:16):
Get rid of this liver. And I agreed.

S3 (08:19):
Yep. Goodbye. Liver.

S2 (08:22):
So it started like that, right? You know, this is
why I live is important.

S3 (08:27):
This is. And I remember you.

S1 (08:28):
Talking about him, too.

S3 (08:29):
Yeah, because he was like.

S1 (08:30):
He would speak about things that I could totally get behind.
Like getting sunlight on your eyes and your face first
thing in the morning.

S3 (08:37):
You used to say, Yeah.

S1 (08:39):
And that's fine. Like, that's there's a lot of, as
far as I'm aware, a lot of evidence that that
kind of exposure to light in the morning is good
for you. So, you know, it was like common sense stuff.

S3 (08:49):
Pretty common.

S2 (08:50):
Sense. And he called it the ancestral tenants. Right. So
this is like going back to what the cavemen did.
And I was like, Oh, God, okay, that's the SpinRite
I can put up with that. But just, you know,
what are the fundamentals? And that's what I was really
concentrating on. But.

S4 (09:05):
Then he went.

S2 (09:07):
Crazy. Like it just kept on snowballing what he was doing.

S3 (09:11):
It got more.

S1 (09:12):
And more extreme, right?

S3 (09:13):
Extreme. Yeah.

S2 (09:15):
And, you know, you do some research and look at.
You know what can go wrong when you're eating raw
meat products.

S4 (09:23):
And.

S2 (09:24):
And not only leather, but it went to like the
heart and testicles and.

S3 (09:30):
Yeah.

S5 (09:31):
I loved when I said that you were having a
sip of your coffee.

S6 (09:36):
SIP of coffee. But I did see a video of
him eating like.

S3 (09:40):
Raw bull testicles.

S1 (09:42):
I'm not going to yuck someone else's yum. I'm really not. So, like,
people have all sorts of diets, like all sorts of
nutrition approaches. And I am not going I am not qualified,
nor am I interested in having an opinion on the
way others eat. But it was just interesting to see.

S7 (10:03):
How quickly.

S1 (10:05):
This guy, who was probably already on the edge of
like a little.

S3 (10:10):
Bit loopy and look.

S2 (10:10):
It came out later, like this year.

S4 (10:13):
That.

S2 (10:14):
Everyone was accusing him of of being on steroids. And he, like,
refuted it and said, no, I'm not. He his body
was like, ridiculous.

S7 (10:23):
A very, very large, fake.

S1 (10:25):
Muscular man.

S3 (10:26):
Like, just.

S2 (10:26):
Fake. He was red. You know, he had that look
about him, that he was on steroids and he refuted it.
But then it came out someone called him basically purchasing
steroids or sort of understood it and so came out
and then he accepted it as well, which, I mean, it's.

S4 (10:45):
Just.

S2 (10:46):
This is what I find. And not just live a king,
but all these wellness influencers. It's a race to the extreme. Yes.
And when you're talking about wellness and extreme, that's serious.
That's dangerous, that's hurtful and that's scary.

S1 (11:02):
This is my problem with it. Right? Like I said,
people can do with their own bodies what they want.
But it is so often the race to the more extreme.
And this is why it's so interesting that we've tried
to social media specifically, it's been proven that you will
get if you're an influencer, you will get more engagement,

(11:23):
you will reach further into the algorithm. The more extreme
you are and often the more negative you are.

S3 (11:33):
100%.

S1 (11:34):
So whether that is a known piece of information for
influencers or if it's just something that people are, you know,
absorbing themselves through their own experience, it is having an impact, right?
So you see like Live a King maybe, maybe his
initial intentions were positive and not extreme at all. You know,

(11:56):
I think most people's intentions are yeah. And then they
get stuck in this feedback loop of more engagement, which
is the currency of social media, more attention because they
said something slightly more extreme or controversial. So you do
it again and you just up the ante a little
bit and then suddenly you're eating bull's balls and, you know,

(12:17):
and whether you think that that's the right thing to
do or not is irrelevant because you've tapped into the
attention side of the equation rather than the intention.

S2 (12:29):
And we're talking about wellness. We could could be talking
about any industry. Absolutely. To social media or any of
those influencing themes and topics. Yeah. And we've seen it
in in the slow living space as well.

S1 (12:43):
Absolutely. Yeah. It gets more and more for a while
there anyway. I don't feel like I'm particularly engaged with
it anymore, but um, for a while there it was like,
how extreme can a minimalist be? Yeah, you know, how
many items? And I absolutely, I don't think I played
into it for views or listens or whatever because that

(13:06):
was something that I was genuinely never interested in. But
it played on my mind about how good a minimalist
am I, you know? And it it had huge impacts
on my mental health. It's like I would spend weeks
stressing about a purchase or, you know, something that we needed,

(13:28):
but I didn't want to add to our like tally
of items that we owned. It really did. Um, it
did number on. It did, yeah. And I had to
intentionally like all of that and step back from that. Yeah.
And I think wellness is far more detrimental because.

S3 (13:46):
Oh yeah.

S1 (13:48):
You know it can impact not only your mental health
but your physical health too. There's this guy that I
not that I'm on Instagram very much anymore. In fact
I deleted it like.

S3 (13:59):
Three weeks ago.

S2 (14:00):
Oh yeah, that's another episode, I think, which we can
go into, and that's social media and teenagers.

S1 (14:06):
Yeah. And social media and families. Yeah. But I. Yeah.
So I don't feel engaged with a lot of the
influencer stuff anymore. But there is a guy I follow,
his name's Ben Carpenter and he is a personal trainer,
really like, you know, visibly fit, muscular guy, also lives

(14:26):
with a couple of chronic illnesses, very open about his
experiences with that. And he will talk about how the
vast majority of so he debunks a lot of wellness
influencer videos around health and fat loss and stuff and he.
Openly shares that the majority of influencers who might look

(14:50):
like the ideal right, the thing that people are trying
to chase. So if it's a someone who's looking to
build a lot of muscle and lose a lot of fat,
he said, they may look like the thing that you
want to. To achieve. And they are so disordered, they're
so unhealthy, they may look like the epitome of health
as we're being sold it, but they are unhealthy because

(15:12):
they have, you know, a really disordered approach to nutrition
or exercise. And I find that people like him are
really helpful counter points because it starts to remove the lens.
And I say this as someone who I feel like
I've got a pretty good bullshit detector and I still

(15:33):
routinely find myself having to pull back from. You know,
snake oil stuff. It's it's.

S3 (15:43):
It's a job I liken.

S2 (15:44):
It the current wellness movement to be like the diet
movement of the 1990s.

S3 (15:52):
Where it was the same thing sugar.

S2 (15:54):
Slash fat wars like yeah truly I think it's that
level of. Marketing and consumerism.

S1 (16:05):
I don't think there is a very big distinction between
what passes as wellness and the diet culture because wellness
is dressed up in moral goodness. Right. If you are well.
Then you must be a good person. And to be well,
you typically have to be thin. You have to be

(16:27):
conventionally attractive. Probably white, probably wealthy. Like that's. And if
you happen to tick those boxes. Then, regardless of how
well or otherwise you are, you are seen as a
morally good person. And that's a real head trip to

(16:47):
try and disentangle yourself from. All right. Yeah. I think
that the crossover between diet, culture and wellness culture is
enormous and so detrimental because as I said, there is
so much wellness. That is positive. So much wellness that

(17:09):
has genuine benefits for people, but it's not necessarily the
same stuff that is going to make you thinner or,
you know, more conventionally instagrammable attractive.

S2 (17:23):
Let's talk about some of those wellness. Like on a
practical sense, what is it that makes wellness for you
a positive experience? Like what do you do in the
wellness space both on that when you're talking about mentally
or physically, which is what I've I looked at in
my own life, but then spiritually as well, which which

(17:45):
is an interesting concept.

S1 (17:49):
It's a good question. I don't necessarily know how to
define it.

S2 (17:54):
What works for you within those three areas.

S1 (17:59):
I think it's. I'm speaking hesitantly because. I want to
use the word self-care, but you know that I have
a very. Conflicted relationship with that phrase. Because it has
become so commercialized. So for me, it's finding small opportunities

(18:24):
for genuine self care. That makes me feel supported. That
makes me feel like from within. That makes me feel
valued or valid. That makes me feel rested that I can.
Find a. A sense of. Okay, I guess I.

S3 (18:54):
Yeah, that's okay.

S4 (18:55):
Yeah.

S1 (18:57):
I think the way I view wellness. Let's start here.
It's a tool rather than the destination. And I think so.
Much of the so many of the issues that I
have with wellness. Are because we treat it like the destination.

(19:20):
You know, it's the thing that we're trying to achieve.
Whereas I see it as. A tool that I use
that allows me to feel well or feel better or
feel supported or, you know, loved or valued. Which then
allows me to go and do other things.

S3 (19:39):
Yeah.

S2 (19:39):
It's like a long term view rather than the short
term view.

S1 (19:42):
Yeah. And it's also not outcome related, which is a
real head trip. Yeah.

S2 (19:47):
The outcome related. I'll push back on a little bit
because I know what you're saying. Like the, the physical
manifestation of what like wellness looks like.

S3 (19:56):
So for me it was weight loss, weight.

S2 (19:57):
Loss and all that sort of. Okay.

S3 (19:59):
So that's it's not anymore.

S2 (20:00):
But what about and you've done this, you've told me
this and we've discussed this before is I'm doing this
so I can. Ski with my grandchildren. So I can. Sure.
Pick up my grandchild when I'm in my age. Do
you mean like it's that.

S1 (20:20):
It's that you're saying that it's an outcome.

S3 (20:23):
It is an.

S2 (20:23):
Outcome. It's 100% an outcome. It's just not. It's a
long term outcome.

S1 (20:27):
But it's also not a it's.

S2 (20:29):
A sustainable.

S3 (20:30):
Outcome, but it's also.

S1 (20:30):
Not a visible outcome. It's not tied to practical.

S2 (20:34):
It's very.

S3 (20:35):
Practical.

S7 (20:35):
Sure.

S1 (20:36):
I get it. And I think for you and I
really if we were to unpack why, we would even.
Delve into wellness stuff. It's because since we probably turned 40,
we've both really wanted to age.

S3 (20:49):
Well, this is 40.

S4 (20:50):
Yeah.

S1 (20:52):
Okay. But that's something that yes, from 40. We both
said we really do want to age well. And what
does that mean? It means that we would like to
we don't know what's around the corner. We don't know
if we'll have grandkids. We don't know any of that stuff.
But so I guess that's that's my point is it
is not a visible outcome and it is not. Um.

(21:16):
It's almost out of our control what that outcome looks like.
Whereas chasing, for example, weight loss, which I did for
many years and obviously no longer do, but that was
a measurable outcome. Which was part of the reason why
it did such a number on my head. But yeah.

(21:40):
And I actually don't think it's controllable either. As I
say that now, you know, there are so many variables
as to why you will or will not have a
body that changes regardless of what you do or don't
do to it. But the wellness industry teaches us that
if only you worked a little bit harder, if only
you ate a little bit less. If only. If only.
If only. If only you bought this thing. If only.

S3 (22:01):
You.

S4 (22:02):
Scarcity mindset.

S1 (22:04):
Then you will be in control of it. We're not.
We're not. So I'd say that, yeah, aging well is
the intention.

S3 (22:14):
Yeah. Nice. So yeah.

S8 (22:16):
I think that.

S1 (22:18):
Saying wellness is a tool. And trying very hard to
extricate it from commercialization is, for me, the most balanced
way of. Looking at it and allowing myself to stay
open to a lot of the elements of it that
have served me well and staying vigilant of those elements

(22:41):
that are trying to sell me stuff.

S8 (22:45):
Yeah.

S1 (22:46):
What? So some examples of wellness.

S7 (22:53):
Like I stretch, I drink water.

S1 (22:55):
I, you know, I walk, I okay, I have a
an activity in sleep tracker. There you go. This I'm.

S4 (23:01):
Going to talk to you about wearable.

S2 (23:03):
Tech. Yeah. Comes to.

S3 (23:04):
Wellness. Yeah.

S1 (23:05):
So I've got one of those rings that I've had
for a couple of years, and I mostly got it
because when I was going through the worst of my
health issues, my sleep was dreadful, absolutely appalling. And I
wanted to get a bit more insight into what it
actually looked like.

S8 (23:22):
And I found it incredibly beneficial.

S1 (23:25):
Yeah. Um, to track my sleep, first of all, and
to see that the tiny changes that I make. So
diaphragmatic breathing, for example, which I have been doing for
about 12 months as a practice, several times a day
for a couple of minutes a day. It has had
a marked improvement. On my measurable wellbeing. So I get

(23:52):
like monthly reports from this ring.

S8 (23:55):
And.

S1 (23:57):
It has shown me over the last year that my
central nervous system so, and my heart rate variability, which
is a measure of overall health, has improved significantly and
that's lined up with a lot of changes that I've
made to my wellbeing in order to have those sorts

(24:21):
of like those slow 1% type improvements. So that has
been really helpful to see that. The tiny changes that
I've made, the breath, you know, the breathing practice, the stretching,
the sticking to a bedtime, you know, 90% of the
time getting up at the same time having a good

(24:42):
morning rhythm that works for me. All of those things
have had a positive.

S8 (24:49):
Impact.

S1 (24:51):
So in that way, I have no issue with, you know,
wearable tech. I think it could very easily become obsessive.
You know, and I do know of people who have
bought like sleep trackers or whatever.

S3 (25:02):
Activity.

S2 (25:03):
Trackers that I need to get my steps in today.
And they pace around the lounge room.

S3 (25:09):
Sure.

S1 (25:09):
I mean, and if that's your goal, if that's your
like the way you measure.

S8 (25:14):
Yeah.

S7 (25:15):
That particular value.

S1 (25:16):
Of yours movement or whatever, fine. For me, it would
be more obsessing over like, Oh my God, I didn't
get good sleep last night. Oh, I'm going to be again.

S2 (25:28):
It's like the long term factors rather than the short term,
like day to day stuff.

S3 (25:32):
That's a good like trending.

S2 (25:34):
Yeah. Trending factors. Yeah, I got one. I got one.
A different kind of wearable. But I did get one
and I was mostly interested in. Recovery. Yeah, because I'm
really challenged by how much I can put push myself,
and I wonder whether I push myself enough. So like,

(25:55):
there's this strain strain kind of measurement and it measures
like a lot of different things, like your heart rate
and all that sort of stuff.

S4 (26:07):
And.

S2 (26:08):
Then your recovery from that. Because I always think and
I'm because I'm mostly mostly trained by myself, am I
pushing myself hard enough to realize benefits and. The answer
is no. I don't think I am based on my
activity tracker. Right that I can push myself. Harder. Than

(26:32):
what I currently am doing. Which is kind of weird,
isn't it?

S3 (26:36):
Like, Yeah.

S1 (26:37):
It is weird. And I recoil a little bit from that.

S3 (26:40):
And I would, of course I.

S5 (26:42):
Would.

S3 (26:43):
Like.

S1 (26:43):
Because that's the antithesis to. Slowness, almost like that's not
even entirely true. But.

S2 (26:54):
The recovery piece is like the slope. That's very true.
So if I reach like this strain factor, whatever that is,
then it will say to me, You need to recover
today and you need to do like a moderate strain,
like don't go over X amount.

S1 (27:11):
And how do you feel when it tells you to
calm your farm a little bit?

S3 (27:16):
I'm feel fine.

S1 (27:17):
You don't feel.

S3 (27:17):
Frustrated? No, no.

S2 (27:18):
No, not at all. Because usually I don't I don't
like exercising to that level, back to back days. I
always have have a day off. So, like day on
day off is how I like to to do it.
Not always able to do that but that's that's how
I like to do it. So I think it's fine
I just I find it valuable in. Yeah just that

(27:42):
recovery piece which and sleep is part of that. Yeah
I get a sleep score. Yeah. And that's part of
the recovery.

S1 (27:49):
Have you found yourself obsessing about any of them, like
when you first got it? Were you.

S3 (27:54):
Oh yeah.

S2 (27:55):
I was looking at it, like multiple times a day.

S4 (27:57):
Right.

S2 (27:57):
And trying to work out, okay, why did I get
a 79% sleep score, right?

S8 (28:02):
Yeah. Did it.

S1 (28:04):
Change your behavior? Like have you adapted or adopted any
wellness type things to help improve your sleep score, for example?

S9 (28:16):
Hmm.

S1 (28:17):
Or is it just a number that you obsess over?

S3 (28:19):
I think.

S2 (28:22):
No, practically, it looks like doing more deep breathing. Okay. One,
two is like when. Like go to bed. When I said.

S3 (28:33):
When it tells you to kind of.

S2 (28:34):
Plans me to go to bed, like go to bed.
I'm amazed at how much sleep I need. I'll put
it that way. Like over eight hours for optimal sleep,
which I was like, Well, I didn't think I needed
that much, but apparently I do again, for that optimal recovery.

S4 (28:56):
And.

S2 (28:58):
Yeah, I can. I don't like it when my sleep
score is no good. That's frustrating. Particularly if that's a
day that I need I want to work out.

S3 (29:08):
Do you.

S8 (29:08):
Think that?

S2 (29:12):
Keep going. I just need to go and stoke the
fire again.

S10 (29:15):
Okay.

S1 (29:22):
Do you think that those days that you get the
the low sleep score. You feel worse because, you know,
you had a bad sleep?

S3 (29:35):
I haven't had.

S2 (29:35):
It for long enough to. But yes, is the answer
to that. But I've only had it for like a month. Right.
Do you know what I mean? So I don't know
how that looks from a trend perspective. And that's what
that's what I like about it. It's like it actually
says you are not optimized yet for some of these scores.
Like it takes a month or even more for it

(29:57):
to be. Accurate in that stuff. So. But yes.

S11 (30:05):
I can.

S2 (30:09):
I could definitely see myself becoming obsessed about this.

S1 (30:13):
I think if you were going to really would have.
Is what I would say.

S8 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

S1 (30:20):
But it does mean so even in that that one example,
both of us having, you know, wearable tech that helps
us and genuinely does help us to access more wellness options,
you know? Yeah. That's a product, right? We're giving our

(30:41):
money to.

S2 (30:42):
100% bought into the product. Again, though, to look just
need to remember it's a tool, right?

S4 (30:50):
Yes, it's a tool.

S2 (30:51):
And it has many. Look. There's no doubting that it has.
Benefits and for other people as well. For example, I
bought my dad a just as purely a sleep tracker. Now,
my dad has recently been diagnosed with dementia, Alzheimer's and

(31:12):
vascular dementia, and I probably will probably talk about this
later on. But he was obsessing about his sleep and
about how much sleep he was getting because he didn't
think he was getting. Enough where my mum would say, No,
you've got plenty. So we bought him this sleeptracker and
it actually and so it's, it's like scientific. It's, it

(31:35):
shows you not only how much sleep you're getting, what
kind of sleep and for how long and when you
work like all that stuff. So it it's. It's for
him for him and yeah just purely data for him
it just provides like assurance reassurance of, of what it
was like. So it's like, oh it had a bad sleep. Well,

(31:57):
well no you didn't because you this is what it
looked like.

S3 (32:00):
And or.

S1 (32:01):
Alternatively. Yeah, you did. No wonder you're so tired. Exactly.
It makes sense because you are literally sleep deprived. So
I think.

S3 (32:12):
So. That's like great.

S2 (32:13):
What a huge, like, advantage.

S8 (32:16):
Absolutely. And it has been.

S1 (32:17):
It has proven to to be it has released a
tension that.

S2 (32:23):
Was a significant obsessive anxiety. Yeah. A, you know, issue. Yeah.
For my dad and his condition. And it's it's I'm
not going to say relieved, all of it, but it has.
It's been a conversation.

S12 (32:43):
Uh.

S1 (32:48):
It's been an ongoing point of tension. Yes, that's.

S4 (32:51):
That's the word.

S3 (32:52):
I was struggling.

S1 (32:53):
Which is which. It is nowhere near as much the
case anymore. So the World Health Organization. Defines wellness. And
I think this is really interesting. Wellness as a state
of complete, complete physical, mental and social well-being, not merely

(33:14):
absence of disease or infirmity. That feels exhausting to me. And.

S8 (33:22):
Also incredibly exclusionary.

S1 (33:25):
As a definition of wellness. I understand, like if you're
looking at it as a binary thing, to be well
is to be the opposite of ill.

S3 (33:37):
Yet I have.

S1 (33:40):
Been living with chronic condition conditions over the last few years,
and I really am by no means as challenging as
many people living with a disability or, you know, severe
chronic illness. I really bristle at.

S8 (33:59):
The.

S1 (34:00):
Thought that anyone who is. Living with a chronic health
condition or cancer or, you know, any number of illnesses
is just excluded from wellness. That really annoys me.

S8 (34:15):
So I think that.

S1 (34:18):
It's probably more more evidence for me that wellness is
not a destination. But what do you think when you
hear that? Because you're you don't you're not living with
any chronic conditions or anything. Like when you hear that,
does that sound like a. Something that you want to achieve. Like,
is that a mountain you want to climb or is

(34:39):
it something that you're like, No, thank you. That sounds.

S8 (34:41):
Tiring.

S2 (34:42):
It just sounds like a definition that it's been.

S4 (34:47):
And that originated from a committee. Sure.

S2 (34:51):
But policy makers. Sure. And that's all there is that
has then influenced policy decisions. So that's all that's that definition.

S3 (35:00):
Is, which.

S1 (35:01):
Is a problem.

S3 (35:02):
To me.

S4 (35:02):
Huge, huge.

S3 (35:03):
Problem.

S8 (35:04):
Like that's an enormous problem, that policies.

S1 (35:07):
Are being created with a vast chunk of society just
not considered as.

S8 (35:16):
Like worthy or. Um.

S1 (35:21):
Capable? I don't know. Yeah.

S2 (35:24):
Or just even included? Absolutely. Inclusiveness. They're excluded from that measurement.

S8 (35:33):
And I think that the the.

S1 (35:35):
State of complete.

S8 (35:37):
Health.

S1 (35:38):
Is what's wrong with the wellness industry because. I think
to a certain extent, absolutely. Spend time focusing on your
being spend time trying to optimize your health. You know,
I'm not a biohacker. I'm not interested in like ironically,
I'm not interested once I get to a certain point
in those tiny 1% tweaks, you know, where people like

(36:00):
if you go to bed at like 15 minutes earlier
and if you drink this tea and if you do
these exercises and if you sync everything to this particular
like chronotype or whatever, you will feel 1% better. Like
at some point I think there's diminishing returns and I'd

(36:20):
prefer to spend that that energy doing other stuff. I'd
prefer to spend it on relationships or.

S8 (36:27):
Create creative projects or gardening or like watching a movie with.

S1 (36:32):
My kids, you know? So I think it's that. That
mentality of like, if.

S8 (36:38):
I work hard enough.

S1 (36:39):
I'll be 100%.

S8 (36:40):
Well, and then what? They might be like, this is not.

S1 (36:45):
Like a I'm not saying give up, but we're all
going to die. You can work as hard as you
want to optimize your health and well-being. And you're still
going to die. I'm not saying give up. I'm not saying,
you know, do things that make you feel bad just
because it's easier.

S8 (37:03):
But at some point.

S1 (37:04):
There's got to be for me anyway, there's a point
where I'm.

S8 (37:07):
Like, This is good. Good enough.

S1 (37:10):
I feel well enough.

S3 (37:11):
Yeah.

S8 (37:12):
And I'm. Yeah. Even that makes me feel uncomfortable because
of the moral issue, right? Yeah, because if you're not. Like,
maybe I'm not that good a person then, you know, like,
that's how tightly tied it is to goodness.

S1 (37:30):
Yeah.

S2 (37:30):
Maybe I'm not as good as I think I am.

S3 (37:32):
Yeah. Yeah.

S8 (37:33):
It makes me deeply uncomfortable. And I think that's really.

S1 (37:35):
Interesting that that was my reaction. Like, I truly believe that,
you know. Sure. Absolutely. Work on your wellness, feel well,
feel happy, find contentment. But at some point it's like
the capitalist version of health.

S3 (37:50):
Oh, 100%.

S8 (37:51):
You know, when.

S1 (37:52):
When is it enough?

S8 (37:53):
When's it enough? And funnily enough.

S1 (37:55):
It will never be enough because someone else will invent
some new app or some new thing or some new
way of doing it that is meant to make it
just that little bit better.

S2 (38:05):
Yeah, it's that trend.

S4 (38:06):
Stuff, you know, like.

S2 (38:08):
I read an article recently where it's like hit training
is now doing you more harm than good.

S3 (38:16):
That's it.

S2 (38:17):
Because now it's all about slow cardio as the way
to build longevity and burn fat and all the rest.
And like, I just immediately go back to tabloid magazine
articles of the 90 seconds talking about diet fads.

S3 (38:36):
Oh, honey.

S2 (38:37):
Like that's where that's where my mind goes now with
all that.

S7 (38:40):
And it's basically.

S8 (38:41):
The same.

S3 (38:41):
Thing. Big money. Yeah, that's all it is.

S2 (38:44):
Just big money.

S8 (38:45):
And it's just so.

S1 (38:46):
Interesting, though, to see what happens publicly when someone dares
to step out of that and say, Actually, this.

S7 (38:56):
Is just a pile of crap.

S8 (38:58):
Yeah. Um.

S1 (38:59):
You know, find happiness. Like find contentment in yourself, move, eat.

S8 (39:05):
And oh, see, even this is.

S1 (39:07):
Complex, right? Because I went to say, move your body,
eat less processed food. Yeah. To me, that's fairly common sense.
We know that those things are going to contribute to
overall health.

S8 (39:25):
But what gives me the right to say that that's
what people want? Maybe that's not what people want.

S1 (39:31):
But if your goal is to feel well in your body,
that those common sense places are probably a good place
to start and finish, maybe, yeah. Because beyond.

S8 (39:43):
That, it gets really.

S1 (39:44):
Murky and really confusing. And speaking from like personal experience. Damaging. Yeah.
Gets real damaging real quick.

S4 (39:56):
Has this first.

S2 (39:57):
Statistic kind of blew me away and it challenged a
few things, which we've already spoken about, but. As a society,
we are 20% less active now than we were in
the 1960s.

S7 (40:10):
Oh, I believe that.

S2 (40:11):
So knowing what we know about fitness and health and wellness,
that that is from you know, the dietary side is,
you know, looking at macros and what you need to
eat to have like an optimal diet and less processed versus,
you know. You know, we've spoken about that. We've spoken
about like types of exercise we need to do and.

(40:38):
Wearable tech as tools. And, you know, the big data
we have now in in research and all the rest
of our exercises. The fact of the matter is, we're
less well than we were in the 1960s with all
that information. What does that show? What does that tell you?

S8 (40:56):
Oh, God.

S1 (40:57):
It shows us a lot of things. I think it
shows us that lifestyle is not, um, you know, the
average lifestyle now is not. Equipping us to move frequently.
The food that is available to us is far more varied,
but on the whole far more processed. I'm and this
is not like a back in the good old days

(41:19):
kind of commentary at all because. Okay.

S8 (41:23):
How rude.

S1 (41:25):
It's not though, because.

S8 (41:26):
Like life was.

S7 (41:28):
Really.

S1 (41:28):
Terrible for a lot of people, you know, 50 or
60 years ago. Um.

S7 (41:34):
But.

S1 (41:35):
From that health perspective, I don't think that the increase,
the vast, vast increase of information and knowledge is serving
us all that well. Although in saying that people were
also told in the 60s, women were told to smoke
so that their babies were delivered, their pregnant women were
told to smoke so that the babies were delivered smaller.

S3 (41:54):
What?

S8 (41:57):
So I've been told I wasn't alive.

S1 (41:59):
You know, And there was all sorts of.

S8 (42:02):
Questionable advice.

S1 (42:05):
Given. Either because the knowledge wasn't there or because certain
people had vested interests like tobacco companies and whatnot. So
even that is, you know.

S8 (42:19):
Messy.

S1 (42:21):
But I think that the convenience side of it, the
busyness side of it, the. Constant connection to tech side
of it means that we are often far more sedentary
depending what you do for work and everything else, but
on the whole far more sedentary even in our downtime. Yeah.

S7 (42:44):
That. That doesn't.

S1 (42:45):
Surprise me. I would have thought it would be more. Okay.

S2 (42:48):
Well, by 2030 it will be 35%. Right? So if
that trend continues. So how do we buck that trend?

S4 (42:58):
What are the solutions to this?

S8 (43:00):
Go simple. It's got to be simple. But, you.

S1 (43:03):
Know, it's also.

S8 (43:05):
I don't think you can lead.

S1 (43:07):
People towards anything unless they want to be led. So
some people don't want to.

S8 (43:13):
Change and that's.

S1 (43:14):
Their prerogative. You know, for me, I know that the
change came. Um, the euro turned 40. I made my overall, like,
yearly theme health. Yeah. And joke was on me because
that's when I got sick. But, um. That was that
stemmed from my intention to age. Well, and everything has

(43:37):
probably grown from that intention ever since. No one could
have made me do that unless I wanted to.

S8 (43:47):
So whether or not it's talking about.

S1 (43:49):
The realities of. What it could look like to age. Well,
you know, and.

S8 (43:56):
Allowing or giving people.

S1 (43:58):
Permission to think about aging as a positive thing. Maybe
because then that becomes a goal or a. A value,
you know, to age well. I think people are terrified
of aging and terrified of walking into it intentionally. I

(44:19):
am terrified of aging.

S8 (44:21):
Yeah. Mm.

S1 (44:23):
And yet you're choosing. You're making choices.

S3 (44:28):
To to.

S1 (44:30):
Do it as well as you.

S8 (44:30):
Can. Correct.

S4 (44:31):
That's and then that's the.

S2 (44:34):
That's the way around that right is to age, but
age in a way that.

S4 (44:40):
You're the best.

S2 (44:42):
Version of that.

S1 (44:43):
So you say, what can we do? Like, how do
we reverse the the trend?

S2 (44:47):
So think long term, think sustainable, think non immediate think.

S7 (44:52):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.

S1 (44:54):
But, you know, it's not a matter of creating like
a public health conversation because.

S8 (45:02):
Everyone's values are different, right? Everyone.

S1 (45:05):
I'm sure that if you asked people. No one would
say they willingly want to choose to feel worse. Yeah,
but what feeling better looks like and feels like is
different for everyone. Yeah. So, you know, Yeah, I think it's,
it's really tricky. And I know we kind of moved
away from social media and wellness there towards the end,

(45:27):
but I think that social media does have a huge
role to play there because.

S7 (45:32):
The.

S1 (45:33):
Overarching conversation around health and wellness on social media is
one of youth. It's one of staying young as long
as possible. And if you can't do that, I you
can't do that because you can't stop yourself from aging.

S8 (45:48):
Yeah. Even though there's a lot.

S1 (45:49):
Of podcast bros who tried to tell you that you
can aging is just a disease. Apparently. I don't agree
with that, by the way. I think that if people
were able to extricate themselves from that messaging even just
a little bit and separate wellness from external health. It

(46:14):
might change what it what the pursuit of it looks like,
and then it can become something very simple. It can
be like, well, do I feel better when I move
for 15 minutes a day? Do I feel. Does my
brain feel better? Does my body feel better?

S8 (46:29):
Not. Does it look better? Not. Does it?

S1 (46:32):
You know, even move better. But do I feel better?
And what are the flow on effects of that over
a week? Over a month? Over a year?

S8 (46:42):
I think maybe that's that's where it.

S1 (46:45):
It could shift for people by simplifying it. You know
what happens if I add one new non processed food
to my diet a day, to my nutrition a day?

S8 (46:57):
What does that look like? What does that feel like? Yeah.
And of course.

S1 (47:00):
I do just want to say before we wrap up.
On this topic. There is a huge.

S8 (47:07):
Element of privilege attached.

S1 (47:09):
To a lot of the wellness stuff, particularly nutrition, but
also movement and exercise. So much of it is just
flat out not available to people because of the price tag.

S4 (47:21):
Very true.

S1 (47:22):
You know, so I think that any effort that we
can make to simplify that, to slow it down, to
bring it back to like a very, very, very small
building block is a positive thing. But it always needs
to be seen through the lens of money, exposure, accessibility
and understanding that not everyone's playing field is the same.

S3 (47:44):
Yep.

S2 (47:45):
You know, that's a good way to.

S3 (47:46):
To finish because.

S1 (47:47):
I don't like the judgment that then comes with it.
It's like, well, you're just not trying hard enough. When
someone has access to all of those things, someone else
has access to none of them. You cannot no say
that it's a level playing field.

S3 (48:00):
Yeah, and that's wellness.

S2 (48:02):
You just can't compare.

S4 (48:03):
Full stop.

S1 (48:05):
Well, yeah, I.

S8 (48:06):
Think that's probably ultimately why.

S1 (48:08):
So much of the conversation was like. This silence like
thinking because you start to try and speak in absolutes
and there are none.

S8 (48:19):
No.

S1 (48:19):
When it comes to health and wellness and wellbeing, there
are none.

S4 (48:22):
Absolutely not.

S2 (48:23):
Anyway, that's our views on wellness. If you've got your
own views, why don't you share them over on Substack?
That's the tortoise.

S1 (48:32):
Brooke McAlary. Substack.

S8 (48:34):
Com.

S4 (48:35):
That's it. Just getting used to that.

S7 (48:40):
Yeah, that's where that's where I.

S8 (48:41):
Live these days.

S1 (48:42):
So I live in Substack.

S4 (48:45):
You do? You really do.

S8 (48:48):
Uh.

S1 (48:49):
No, it's, um. You know, it's developing into this really
wonderful community. Actually, I love it a lot. I love
the people who subscribe, people who comment, the people who
take part in our Friday confab. It's just a. I've
really rediscovered my love of writing over the past few months,

(49:10):
and a lot of that's down to what I've been
putting out into the world over on Substack.

S2 (49:15):
Yeah, go and check it out. We also must thank
those that have left us a review and rating on
Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

S3 (49:23):
Absolutely. All those new.

S2 (49:24):
Ratings and reviews really helped. And if you would like
to and haven't done so yet, please, please feel free
to do that. We yeah, we truly thank you that
it's been great.

S7 (49:36):
You've said some.

S8 (49:37):
Very kind things about the podcast, about the the old slow.

S1 (49:43):
HomePod and the tortoise in its new iteration. So it's, um. Yeah,
it's been.

S8 (49:48):
Really cool.

S1 (49:49):
To see, actually. I don't often allow myself.

S8 (49:54):
To feel that and it's been really nice.

S2 (49:57):
I like that. You know what else I like? Staring
at a fire. I've been zoned out on this fire.

S8 (50:03):
It's. Yeah, it's one of my favorite things. It's one
of my favorite things to do. I love that.

S1 (50:07):
The weather is starting to cool.

S8 (50:09):
Down.

S1 (50:10):
So that we can do this a little more.

S2 (50:13):
Let's get on to the second piece that we're going
to talk about, and that's an article that you found
on The Secret to Thriving in Life.

S3 (50:23):
Yeah.

S1 (50:23):
Which I thought was a great counterpoint to the wellness conversation.

S2 (50:26):
It's not all about being comfortable. Yes. Yeah. And I
guess that kind of comes back to what I was
saying about strain and.

S4 (50:36):
And activity and Yeah.

S8 (50:38):
So I will.

S1 (50:39):
Include a link to this article in the show notes
which is over at the Tortoise on Substack.

S8 (50:45):
But it is an article written by a.

S1 (50:48):
Neuroscientist named Paul.

S8 (50:50):
Taylor.

S1 (50:52):
And.

S7 (50:54):
His theory.

S1 (50:55):
Essentially is that discomfort inconvenience.

S8 (51:00):
A.

S1 (51:00):
Certain amount of strain and stress.

S7 (51:05):
Is good for us.

S2 (51:06):
It's not only good for us, it's essential.

S3 (51:08):
Yes.

S8 (51:09):
Correct.

S1 (51:10):
Paired with, as you said, recovery, paired with connection, paired
with sleep and rest and, you know, all of those
other things. But I just thought it was a really
interesting article it made. There's a little bit of. Um,
fear mongering is the wrong word. A little bit of.

(51:34):
That element of going to extremes in the article. And,
you know, he's selling a book.

S3 (51:41):
Promoting a book.

S1 (51:41):
Yeah, I understand where that's coming from. They would have
taken an excerpt from his book that has the most
strong kind of messaging and run with that. So I
do get that.

S8 (51:54):
But ultimately, I.

S1 (51:55):
Thought that his message was really interesting and I mean.

S8 (52:00):
It.

S1 (52:00):
He focused a lot on physical. Discomfort and then physical recuperation.

S8 (52:07):
Yeah. I am more interested.

S1 (52:11):
In emotional discomfort. And the conversation around that. Yeah.

S2 (52:18):
We're challenging your ideas and thoughts. Is that what you mean?

S3 (52:20):
Yeah, I.

S8 (52:21):
Think that having.

S1 (52:23):
Difficult conversations allowing yourself vulnerability. You know, really stepping into.

S7 (52:34):
The fear of.

S1 (52:36):
Being seen or being wrong or.

S8 (52:39):
Allowing.

S1 (52:39):
Yourself to.

S8 (52:40):
Evolve.

S1 (52:41):
I think that there are huge benefits to that. But
something I have found myself thinking about a lot lately
is so people will say, you know, you build resilience
by going through difficult things, by, you know, having tough conversations,
having difficult experiences will build resilience. I agree to a

(53:02):
certain extent.

S8 (53:04):
But where is the line?

S1 (53:07):
Between something that. Builds resilience and something that damages us.

S4 (53:14):
I don't know.

S8 (53:16):
Neither do I. It's not, is it?

S2 (53:19):
Lessons learnt. Is it your ability to reflect on that experience?
And then ultimately, what I really like about it is
that if you think back to your greatest achievements or
things that you're very proud of, most of them involve
some form of stress and being out of your comfort zone.

S3 (53:41):
Sure.

S2 (53:42):
So that's a reflection, right? Like you only know that.
When you've when you've been out to reflect on that experience. Okay.
So to answer your question, it's reflecting on that experience
and going, Oh, no. This is this has happened as
a result of that. And it might be like trauma
or it might be. You know, like the bad experience.

S3 (54:06):
Do you know what I mean?

S1 (54:07):
I do know what you mean, but I don't necessarily
agree with it. Agree? Okay.

S8 (54:13):
Yeah, I think that that's.

S7 (54:17):
A choice.

S1 (54:19):
To look back over difficult things and say as a
result of going through these difficult things, this discomfort, wherever
it fell, on the scale of discomfort, these positive things
have happened or these lessons have come from it.

S7 (54:33):
That's a choice to.

S1 (54:35):
Be able to do that. I don't think we can
always do that. And I think sometimes there are things
that happen to us and we're like.

S7 (54:41):
That just sucked.

S8 (54:43):
That sucked. Do you know what I mean?

S4 (54:46):
Yeah. I can't help.

S2 (54:46):
But think, though, that.

S4 (54:50):
We're bringing.

S2 (54:51):
This other. Oh, look, it's going to come down to
the individual, isn't it? Sure. Some people will never embrace
discomfort because of. A number of different reasons, whether it's Trump,
like too many Trump like experiences of trauma. On one
end of the scale and then the other end of

(55:13):
the scale is people. Might just be victims.

S3 (55:16):
Right?

S2 (55:17):
And just have that victim mentality. We all know people
like that. So it's down to the individual and growth mindset.
That's all it is.

S4 (55:29):
Mhm. But some.

S2 (55:30):
Experiences. Yes. You will reflect on them and go oh no,
that was a traumatic experience. There's no positive to, to,
to come out of that. Um, um. Well, some might say, look,
that was a really traumatic experiences, but this is the
lesson that I've learned from it. I don't know. Yeah.
Is it it's down to the individual in their mindset.

S8 (55:53):
Yeah, I think.

S7 (55:57):
There's also a role of healing.

S1 (56:00):
You know?

S4 (56:01):
Yeah.

S2 (56:02):
I'm going to go and put another log on the fire. Okay.

S1 (56:06):
Choosing to. Heal in spite of.

S8 (56:12):
Maybe that's the difference.

S1 (56:15):
Yeah. We choose to heal in spite of the crappy
thing that happened. Yeah.

S8 (56:22):
Or not.

S1 (56:25):
You know, we choose to blame the crappy thing that
happened as to why we cannot heal or recover. I
wrote a little while ago or last week on The
Tortoise about the difference between healing and recovery. And. The
difference ultimately for me is that recovery is about going

(56:49):
back to what once was. Okay. Yeah. You know, we recover.

S8 (56:53):
From.

S1 (56:54):
An injury and ultimately we've come back to the same
state that we were previously, whereas healing is overcoming, it's
moving forward. And that was really helpful for me because
you can heal forward. You can heal with scars. You
can heal with. Pain and lessons learnt and not going

(57:18):
through what I've gone through over the last couple of years.
I can't recover. And recognizing that I cannot recover. I
cannot go back to how to what and how and
who I was. But I can heal.

S7 (57:31):
That was a huge Yeah.

S1 (57:33):
Shift for me. Yeah, because healing is about moving forward.
Healing is about. Perhaps going back to that article, you know,
embracing what the discomfort has given us and moved forward
in spite of rather than scrambling to get back to. Yeah.

S4 (57:50):
And and that's a key insight.

S2 (57:55):
There is people's obsession and. We all have it because
we're human beings. Is that. It was great back then because.

S4 (58:06):
Of.

S2 (58:07):
I was younger. I was.

S4 (58:08):
Fitter.

S7 (58:09):
Trying to get back to.

S1 (58:10):
What we were.

S3 (58:11):
Yeah, yeah.

S2 (58:11):
Where that is the greatest fallacy of. Being alive is
that you can never go back there.

S1 (58:20):
Which really puts paid to most of the wellness industry then,
doesn't it?

S3 (58:24):
Totally.

S8 (58:26):
I didn't actually design.

S4 (58:28):
Debunks the whole industry.

S3 (58:30):
But you can't.

S8 (58:30):
Like yeah you can't go back.

S4 (58:33):
And that's look.

S2 (58:35):
That's right. And I think the key is then what
we were discussing is that it is instead. Instead of
going back and and and looking in the rearview mirror
of wanting to be back at that weight or that
level of fitness or whatever it is.

S4 (58:53):
It's you look into the crystal ball and you say.

S2 (58:55):
This is how I want to feel when I'm X
years old or when I have this or when I'm,
you know what I mean?

S3 (59:03):
Yeah, I.

S1 (59:03):
Do. I do. I think that it's just also something
to be gained for finding contentment in the where you
are right now.

S2 (59:10):
And Absolutely.

S3 (59:12):
Yeah.

S1 (59:12):
Because I think that either can be quite damaging, grasping
too far into the future for things that we are
not in control of versus wishing we could go back.
They're both quite.

S8 (59:26):
Um.

S2 (59:27):
That's really hard, though, isn't it, to to get into
that mindset of just being content where you are now
and what you're doing.

S3 (59:33):
That's why it's.

S7 (59:33):
Difficult, but that's why it's so powerful.

S8 (59:35):
Yeah.

S1 (59:37):
Which then, you know, if we're. Talking about discomfort. Where
does discomfort come into contentment as well? Do you know?

S8 (59:44):
Do you know what I mean?

S3 (59:45):
It needs to be.

S2 (59:46):
A daily thing.

S4 (59:47):
Yeah.

S2 (59:48):
For, then you to realize. What what contentment looks like?

S8 (59:55):
Sure. It's not a permanent state.

S1 (59:57):
When was the last time you felt uncomfortable? Physically?

S3 (01:00:02):
Like you push the lightest.

S2 (01:00:03):
Like heavy workout, probably.

S8 (01:00:05):
How often do.

S3 (01:00:06):
You work out? Actually, you know what?

S2 (01:00:07):
Moving eight cubic.

S4 (01:00:10):
Tons of firewood. Tons. Eight. Taking cubic.

S8 (01:00:18):
A lot of firewood.

S4 (01:00:19):
Was a lot of firewood.

S3 (01:00:20):
Yeah.

S1 (01:00:21):
So that was yesterday. You felt.

S7 (01:00:22):
Physically.

S3 (01:00:24):
Uncomfortable.

S1 (01:00:24):
You put yourself in the way of discomfort on purpose.

S3 (01:00:27):
To get the.

S4 (01:00:28):
Job done Right.

S1 (01:00:30):
And did you find a sense of. Um. Achievement. Contentment.

S3 (01:00:37):
Yeah. It was good to.

S2 (01:00:37):
Move the move the wood. I was disappointed at the
how I stacked it.

S3 (01:00:42):
Okay. Because it wasn't.

S2 (01:00:43):
Neat as I wanted it to.

S4 (01:00:45):
Be.

S7 (01:00:45):
You have firewood.

S1 (01:00:46):
Stacking envy, though.

S5 (01:00:48):
For some reason.

S4 (01:00:50):
Yeah, I do. I could.

S2 (01:00:52):
Spend more time on it and get.

S4 (01:00:54):
It, but.

S2 (01:00:54):
It will require me chopping wood as I go. And I'm.

S4 (01:00:59):
I'm not about that life.

S8 (01:01:04):
Okay. When was the last.

S1 (01:01:05):
Time you felt emotionally.

S8 (01:01:08):
Uncomfortable?

S2 (01:01:09):
Emotionally uncomfortable.

S4 (01:01:12):
I know this. This just sprang to mind.

S2 (01:01:16):
Doing a short online course about understanding dementia.

S3 (01:01:22):
Yep.

S7 (01:01:24):
Yep, that will do it.

S4 (01:01:29):
That's all I want to say about that.

S2 (01:01:30):
At the moment. But yeah.

S4 (01:01:31):
Yeah. And.

S2 (01:01:35):
I think professionally, from a professional career standpoint, I am
always wanting to to throw myself into the deep end,
to feel uncomfortable. One of the.

S4 (01:01:45):
Huge.

S2 (01:01:47):
Influences of my life, my working life as something that
your dad said to me early in my career is
fake it till you make it. That's essentially being like uncomfortable.
Until you are not in your.

S12 (01:02:05):
Cory.

S1 (01:02:07):
Yeah. Okay. So it's embracing.

S2 (01:02:09):
So in my career, I think I do it all
the time.

S3 (01:02:12):
Yeah.

S8 (01:02:13):
Watching you operate, I would agree with that.

S4 (01:02:16):
What about you? Physically?

S8 (01:02:21):
Um.

S1 (01:02:23):
Yesterday I spent.

S8 (01:02:25):
A couple of hours in the garden.

S1 (01:02:27):
Probably doing heavier work than I have in quite some time.

S3 (01:02:31):
Uh, you know, but it's.

S2 (01:02:33):
Interesting with you in the physical discomfort because you're so
used to. What it was like in the past.

S4 (01:02:41):
Being able to push yourself.

S2 (01:02:42):
You can no longer do that. No. And I feel
like it requires me to come to you and say,
I think that's enough now.

S7 (01:02:49):
I struggle with that.

S1 (01:02:50):
Yes, absolutely.

S3 (01:02:51):
I think you've done enough.

S1 (01:02:52):
Yeah, I do very much struggle with that because, you know,
2 or 3 years ago, I could spend five, six,
seven hours in the garden and be very tired, but.
Not wrecked. Yeah. Whereas now I might be able to
do half an hour, some days less, some days more.
Yesterday was was a good hit out. Yeah. But you

(01:03:14):
still had to say it's time. Even though I knew
like I knew it was.

S4 (01:03:20):
And then you came in and I said, How did
you feel? How do you like you spent.

S2 (01:03:25):
I don't know, three hours out there. How do you feel?
And you went I felt like I spent half an
hour too much. Yeah.

S8 (01:03:31):
So that's that is.

S1 (01:03:32):
Emotionally uncomfortable for me to. I have to constantly weigh up.
The physical side of it is also emotionally uncomfortable. So
it's I don't think I've got a lot of clarity
around it at the moment because it's still something that
I'm absolutely learning to accept and yeah, go with.

S7 (01:03:54):
But there is.

S1 (01:03:55):
A definite crossover between. And I find the same thing
when you and I do usually most weeks we'll do
a personal training session together with our awesome trainer, and
I have to stop myself from doing a full hour.
I cannot if I did a full hour. I've done
it and I'm out of action for a week. I

(01:04:17):
just cannot do it at the moment.

S7 (01:04:20):
And that's incredibly.

S8 (01:04:21):
Frustrating.

S7 (01:04:22):
Yeah.

S1 (01:04:22):
So it's really weighing up the the two types of discomfort,
the emotional discomfort that I'm a failure. I, I suck.
I used to be able to do this with.

S7 (01:04:31):
The.

S1 (01:04:32):
Physical discomfort of.

S8 (01:04:34):
Pushing myself, which actually.

S1 (01:04:36):
Feels kind of good in the doing. But I know
that the fallout will be significant and deeply unpleasant. So that's.

S8 (01:04:45):
You know, I'm finding that that challenging. Um.

S3 (01:04:50):
Yeah, I, I. Yeah.

S2 (01:04:51):
Okay, so what about mentally, then?

S1 (01:04:54):
I throw myself into emotional discomfort a lot. Yeah, you do.

S7 (01:05:00):
Um.

S2 (01:05:01):
You're always challenging.

S3 (01:05:03):
Yourself.

S1 (01:05:04):
Yeah, I think.

S3 (01:05:05):
That and challenging.

S2 (01:05:06):
Others.

S8 (01:05:07):
Particularly. That must be annoying. I must be a joy
to live with.

S1 (01:05:12):
To be like around. Because I think I probably have
a similar perspective on emotional discomfort to what you do
with your work.

S3 (01:05:24):
Yeah, I'd.

S2 (01:05:25):
Agree with that.

S3 (01:05:26):
I would really and I think that's tied.

S1 (01:05:27):
To my writing and tied to the kind of person
I am and the way that I figure things out.

S3 (01:05:32):
Because men are from.

S4 (01:05:33):
Mars and women are from Venus.

S3 (01:05:34):
Oh, all right.

S4 (01:05:35):
What the hell is that?

S3 (01:05:37):
I don't know. I need.

S4 (01:05:37):
To.

S2 (01:05:38):
I need to find out what that is.

S3 (01:05:40):
It's a book.

S8 (01:05:40):
It was a book from, like, the 80 seconds.

S3 (01:05:42):
Yeah, it.

S2 (01:05:42):
Sounds really.

S4 (01:05:43):
Bad.

S8 (01:05:44):
Yeah, I haven't read it. I can't pass judgment on it.

S3 (01:05:48):
If you've read it, let us know.

S4 (01:05:55):
You hate that as a stereotype, by the way. I
recoil at it. Sorry for bringing it up.

S2 (01:06:01):
Please share what you were going to say. I'm getting
silly now. I think it's time to wrap this up soon.

S8 (01:06:07):
Yeah, I think. The last time I.

S1 (01:06:11):
Was emotionally uncomfortable.

S8 (01:06:16):
I.

S7 (01:06:18):
Apologized for.

S1 (01:06:20):
Something.

S8 (01:06:22):
Not to you.

S5 (01:06:24):
I was going to say who was the lucky recipient.

S8 (01:06:28):
Oh, don't I.

S1 (01:06:28):
Apologize all the time.

S8 (01:06:30):
Excuse me.

S1 (01:06:30):
I do.

S4 (01:06:34):
You do. But what do you remember? The specific. Specific of.

S3 (01:06:39):
It or not.

S8 (01:06:40):
I just snapped at someone.

S3 (01:06:42):
Oh, yeah. Okay. And it.

S8 (01:06:43):
Was not.

S1 (01:06:44):
At all a big deal. But in that context, apologies
never happened. And for me it was actually a very
intentional choice to say sorry because because they never happen.
And I am at a point in my life now.

S7 (01:07:03):
Where.

S1 (01:07:04):
I don't want patterns of behavior that have stood for
a long time to continue standing for no good reason.

S2 (01:07:11):
Generational patterns.

S4 (01:07:12):
So what it was.

S2 (01:07:15):
How do you feel now after apologizing?

S3 (01:07:19):
Could. Fine. Do you.

S4 (01:07:21):
Feel.

S2 (01:07:23):
Great about it.

S1 (01:07:25):
About having snapped at someone.

S8 (01:07:27):
Know about having a policy?

S3 (01:07:29):
Um.

S1 (01:07:30):
I feel like it was the right thing to do.

S3 (01:07:32):
Because remember, it's.

S4 (01:07:32):
Not.

S2 (01:07:33):
What you do. It's your reaction then from it. Yeah.

S3 (01:07:37):
Do you know what I mean? My, my. What matters.

S1 (01:07:39):
My intention was. True and positive. Yeah.

S8 (01:07:43):
And. I think learning.

S1 (01:07:46):
To extricate my feelings about my choices versus the choices
of someone else and their reactions and my feelings about that.

S7 (01:07:56):
That's.

S1 (01:07:57):
That's an ongoing process. Yeah. So, you know, you can
apologize and have all the right intentions and feel fine
about apologizing and still get mad about what.

S8 (01:08:06):
The fallout was.

S1 (01:08:07):
Yeah, you can. Those two things can both happen at
the same time and it's just learning to separate them.
I think.

S8 (01:08:15):
Like this is the kind of stuff.

S1 (01:08:16):
That I think about all the time. Yeah. You poor bugger.
Like the conversations that I have with you.

S8 (01:08:21):
You must get so.

S1 (01:08:22):
Tired of listening to what happens in my head.

S4 (01:08:25):
So from a professional career point of view. You definitely
challenge yourself.

S7 (01:08:34):
Workwise. Yeah.

S3 (01:08:36):
Yeah. You do?

S8 (01:08:38):
Only recently, though.

S2 (01:08:39):
Well, actually, you know what? It's. I think it's the
thing that's changed the most. You've challenged yourself more and more.
I mean, the tortoise is a great example of that.
Like you just read. Purpose. Branded a.

S4 (01:08:55):
Very successful.

S2 (01:08:56):
Podcast or something. Yeah, like it's different. Yeah, going in
a different direction.

S1 (01:09:02):
I do love those big, big pivots sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

S3 (01:09:07):
But Substack is.

S4 (01:09:08):
Another example.

S2 (01:09:09):
Like. And the writing you're doing now, it's totally different.
You can you're.

S4 (01:09:14):
Continually.

S2 (01:09:15):
Challenging yourself.

S8 (01:09:17):
Maybe, Yeah.

S1 (01:09:18):
It's tricky.

S8 (01:09:20):
I find that a probably a more complicated.

S1 (01:09:23):
Conversation to have. Um, because a lot of my feelings
about the work that I do as a writer specifically,
that that work is tied up. With.

S7 (01:09:38):
Self-worth, which is.

S1 (01:09:39):
Tied up with frustratingly.

S8 (01:09:41):
Money.

S1 (01:09:44):
And being un valued as a.

S7 (01:09:46):
Writer.

S1 (01:09:48):
Uh, you know, this is a conversation that you and
I have had for many years ongoing, and I.

S8 (01:09:56):
Feel like.

S1 (01:09:57):
Maybe something has.

S8 (01:09:58):
Shifted over the last six months or so.

S1 (01:10:01):
Which I'm very.

S8 (01:10:01):
Grateful for.

S3 (01:10:02):
I am, too.

S1 (01:10:04):
And it reflects in how I feel about my writing,
how I feel about the work that is writing, how
I feel about the projects that I'm working on.

S8 (01:10:14):
I think.

S4 (01:10:14):
And as a whole. How do you feel about yourself.

S2 (01:10:18):
And your work?

S7 (01:10:18):
Yeah, it's it's very.

S1 (01:10:21):
Intricately woven into my.

S7 (01:10:27):
View of who I.

S1 (01:10:27):
Am and.

S7 (01:10:28):
The value that.

S8 (01:10:29):
I have.

S1 (01:10:31):
I don't recommend it, but it's where I'm at at
the moment.

S7 (01:10:37):
So there is always discomfort.

S8 (01:10:41):
You know what? Around my work, there is always discomfort.
I get very nervous Still.

S1 (01:10:49):
With every post that I write a second guess myself, I.

S8 (01:10:56):
Wake up feeling quite anxious.

S1 (01:11:00):
The days that I know a new post is scheduled
to go out, like there is an enormous amount of
discomfort that comes from writing. And I know that like,
it's of no real consequence in the world. Like I'm
not saving lives. I'm not, you know, curing cancer. I'm
not delivering babies.

S7 (01:11:18):
But it's just.

S4 (01:11:19):
I think.

S2 (01:11:19):
It's just a testament to the authenticity. And it's like you.
You're putting yourself out there. Yeah.

S3 (01:11:24):
And it's scary.

S2 (01:11:24):
You're. It's 100% you.

S4 (01:11:27):
Yep.

S3 (01:11:28):
You're like, I.

S1 (01:11:29):
Wish I knew how to make it not. Yeah, but
I don't.

S3 (01:11:32):
That's just.

S2 (01:11:32):
Your style and.

S3 (01:11:33):
Your. Yeah. Yeah.

S8 (01:11:34):
I don't know how to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's.
What a conversation. What a.

S4 (01:11:43):
What a.

S2 (01:11:44):
What a huge conversation. We do need to, though, just
circle back on our reoccurring topics for the year and
that is 1% and four day working week. Yes. Why
don't you go first 1%. How are you going?

S8 (01:11:59):
This month has.

S1 (01:12:00):
Been a little.

S7 (01:12:01):
More scattershot.

S1 (01:12:03):
Than last month. So much I felt really.

S7 (01:12:08):
Really driven, really attached.

S1 (01:12:10):
To the idea of the 1% like I.

S7 (01:12:12):
Was.

S1 (01:12:13):
Um. Almost. Routine, which I'm not often routine in anything,
was quite routine in my 1% application. So that was.
Stretching every morning, working on my novel every day, or
the equivalent of, you know, every day, which adds up
to around like. 1% of a month is 7 to

(01:12:36):
8 hours, and I had certainly done that in March, April.
We've been away with family.

S7 (01:12:40):
The kids are on holidays.

S1 (01:12:42):
My routine is completely gone and I willingly walk into
that every ten weeks when the kids are on holidays.
It's the choice that I make, but it means that
I've had to be a little more flexible and fluid
with how I apply the idea of 1%. So some
days it's literally, what can I do? What is a 1%

(01:13:03):
increase in effort in something? And that's enough. You know,
it might be taking an extra 30 seconds to tidy
up the kitchen bench before I go to bed. It
could be, you know.

S8 (01:13:13):
Realizing I haven't done any.

S1 (01:13:14):
Breathing exercises that day, Doing them in bed when I'm
reading it could be giving you a.

S7 (01:13:20):
Hug.

S1 (01:13:20):
It could be, you know, anything like that. I still
view all of those things as an effort towards the 1%
because they are intentional and I'm choosing to do them
because I believe they will.

S7 (01:13:33):
Have.

S1 (01:13:34):
Some kind of impact over a long period of time.
I'll never know what they are. No, but I know
that they exist.

S7 (01:13:41):
Yeah.

S1 (01:13:42):
But in saying that, I'm also trying.

S8 (01:13:45):
As much as I can.

S1 (01:13:46):
To give that 1% of time to my writing. And
that means that maybe I did an hour on a
Saturday hour on a Sunday rather than 15 minutes a day.

S8 (01:13:57):
That kind of thing. So, yeah, I still feel good
about it. I love it as a tool.

S1 (01:14:01):
I absolutely love it because it is so flexible and fluid,
but so positive and forward moving. You know? Um.

S8 (01:14:09):
Another example is like when.

S1 (01:14:10):
We tried to record this episode like ten days ago
and we got five, ten minutes into it and we
looked at.

S8 (01:14:17):
Each other and we're like, You know what?

S1 (01:14:20):
The kindest thing to do is this. Let's just not,
you know. And the flow on effect of that was positive, too, right?

S3 (01:14:27):
Because hopefully this.

S2 (01:14:28):
Episode is so much better.

S1 (01:14:30):
What's better than something that doesn't exist? Yeah. So I
absolutely love it as a tool and I can't see
myself not using it.

S8 (01:14:40):
Yeah. What about you?

S1 (01:14:41):
What has the four day work week traveling we'd like?

S4 (01:14:44):
It's.

S3 (01:14:44):
It's pretty terrible.

S8 (01:14:46):
This month.

S1 (01:14:46):
Is different.

S8 (01:14:47):
Again. Yeah.

S2 (01:14:48):
It's going to be really hard.

S8 (01:14:51):
So you went from the beginning.

S1 (01:14:52):
Of this year, sold that on the fact that it
was going to happen to.

S4 (01:15:00):
Now. It's not going to happen.

S2 (01:15:01):
How? I thought it would happen.

S3 (01:15:03):
Yeah.

S8 (01:15:03):
How did you think it would happen?

S2 (01:15:04):
Every Friday I would have off and I'd be on
the golf course.

S3 (01:15:08):
Okay.

S4 (01:15:09):
Ain't not going to happen.

S7 (01:15:11):
How many times have you played golf this year?

S4 (01:15:13):
Once.

S12 (01:15:16):
Um.

S2 (01:15:17):
So what is it? What's it going to look like?
I've got to be more flexible in my definition of
what the four day work week is. I need to
create and manage expectations with clients around it. Yep. I
need to get out of the mindset that I am
an employee. Yes. With employee benefits. Yep. Whereas I'm a consultant.

(01:15:39):
With hopefully consultant benefits. I'm talking very vague here because.

S3 (01:15:43):
Well, you've got.

S8 (01:15:44):
Clients and.

S3 (01:15:45):
So I.

S2 (01:15:45):
Just need to. Yeah, better manage expectations. Better be kind
to myself when. It doesn't look like what I hoped
it looked like.

S3 (01:15:56):
Yeah, right.

S2 (01:15:58):
And because I think just being of like, it would
be easier for an organization in the trials that have
been done is they have said days like it's it's
a four day work week. Yeah. Within this within this
timetable and this is what it looks like. Can't do that. Mm.
So I need to then just better manage what, what

(01:16:19):
the definition of a four day work week looks like
for me. I did have one magical week where it
did work. Yeah. Now it's about. Okay. There are certain
circumstances out of my control. How do I. How do
I still get the benefits right?

S1 (01:16:36):
And that's what I was going to say, rather than
focusing so much on what it looks like.

S7 (01:16:42):
Could it be.

S1 (01:16:43):
Refocusing your attention on.

S7 (01:16:45):
How it.

S8 (01:16:46):
Feels?

S3 (01:16:46):
Yes.

S1 (01:16:48):
You know, so whether or not that is a reduction
in hours worked over five days or.

S3 (01:16:56):
You know, the day is not always.

S2 (01:16:58):
A Friday.

S3 (01:16:59):
Or it might.

S8 (01:16:59):
Be two hours here.

S7 (01:17:01):
And three hours there.

S1 (01:17:02):
You know.

S8 (01:17:03):
Or.

S1 (01:17:05):
Working in a way that you can take two extra
days off over a long weekend once every, you know, Yeah,
three months, whatever.

S7 (01:17:13):
It Anyway.

S3 (01:17:14):
That's, that's where.

S2 (01:17:15):
You're at where I'm at the moment. The magical fairy
tale definition of it, which works for some people, but
for me and my.

S3 (01:17:25):
Work at the moment, at the.

S2 (01:17:26):
Moment unfortunately is not working and I'm a bit angry
about it.

S4 (01:17:33):
Okay. Disappointed?

S3 (01:17:36):
Frustrated. Frustrated.

S8 (01:17:39):
Interesting.

S1 (01:17:41):
I guess. Holding on to that outcome as opposed to
the process. It might not be a super positive thing
for you at the moment. Then if the outcome looks
like every Friday.

S7 (01:17:53):
Off.

S4 (01:17:54):
No. And I opened this conversation by saying how stressed
I am, I actually feel.

S2 (01:17:58):
So much calmer now.

S4 (01:17:59):
Having just talked. Okay.

S7 (01:18:02):
Therapy. It works.

S3 (01:18:04):
It does.

S7 (01:18:06):
It does. Of course it.

S8 (01:18:07):
Is. Yeah.

S4 (01:18:08):
All right.

S3 (01:18:09):
Okay, That's it. On that note. Yeah. Thank you.

S4 (01:18:12):
What a what a good yarn we've had. I've enjoyed it.
The fire's.

S2 (01:18:17):
Been great. That's really relaxed. Me looking at the flames.

S4 (01:18:21):
Um.

S2 (01:18:23):
I've enjoyed your insights.

S4 (01:18:24):
Thank you.

S8 (01:18:25):
Likewise.

S7 (01:18:36):
So if you haven't already.

S1 (01:18:37):
Head over to the tortoise. You can find all the
show notes for today's episode.

S7 (01:18:41):
So that's Brooke calorie.substack.com.

S1 (01:18:45):
You can always just search for. That's the name of
the episode. This is episode number.

S7 (01:18:50):
Two of the tortoise. You'll find every.

S8 (01:18:52):
To be there. If you haven't also subscribe.

S1 (01:18:56):
I send out a.

S7 (01:18:58):
Friday.

S1 (01:18:58):
Newsletter.

S7 (01:18:59):
Every Friday for.

S1 (01:19:01):
Free to everyone on the list. And often it's a
an essay. Insight into what's been happening. There's also a
big archive there that you can dig in to see
what what the writing is all about. But I would
love to have you there.

UU (01:19:20):
Cost. Smooth and slow home.

S1 (01:19:23):
Readers from way back who have found their way over
to the tortoise. And it's so cool to see like
names that I have.

S3 (01:19:30):
You haven't seen for a while.

S8 (01:19:31):
Yeah, and interacting with.

S7 (01:19:33):
People.

S1 (01:19:34):
After, you know, a decade.

S7 (01:19:36):
It's really cool. It's really cool.

S1 (01:19:39):
There's something about the community over there that.

S7 (01:19:42):
It's filled me up. So I'd love to have you
come and join us.

S8 (01:19:47):
In the meantime, we'll be back in your ears in
a month. Third Thursday of every month, there's 100% drops.

S10 (01:19:53):
And take good care of me.