The Four-Day Work Week: Episode 1

Welcome to the first episode of The Tortoise - a podcast that digs deep into the power of slow. 

Brooke and Ben are back with the first full episode of The Tortoise, and it's a good'un. They start by talking about what you can expect from the ploddie, and then dig in to today's juicy topic: is a four-day work week feasible? 

This is a hot-button issue right now, as many companies around the world look to the results of a recent six-month four-day working week trial. Ben talks through his own experiment with trying to establish one, and the benefits and challenges of doing so as a self-employed person, while Brooke puts her idealist hat on and talks through a couple of interesting case studies. 

They also dig into the topic of hobbies - What are they? Do we need to try and improve at them? What happens if we want to turn a hobby into an income? - and discover that it's harder than we think to separate productivity from leisure. 

Brooke also gives an update on her 1% experiment and Ben talks about his Japanese lessons as his current form of continual improvement. 

Head over to The Tortoise for the Episode 1 show notes, and if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter while you're there. 

 

Join The Tortoise Community: https://brookemcalary.substack.com/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:02):
The tortoise. A podcast that digs deep. Into the power
of slow. I'm your host, Brooke McAlary, and I am
joined by my husband, Ben McElroy.

S2 (00:18):
What beautiful bird noises we're hearing outside.

S1 (00:23):
Unedited baby.

S2 (00:26):
What birds are those? That's a that's a cockatoo. That's
a white cockatoo. And one of those.

S1 (00:31):
Songs, I think.

S2 (00:33):
So it's just been raining here, and I feel like
they always do it once it's rained.

S1 (00:39):
Carol Wong's and Magpies love their warbling caroling sounds.

S2 (00:45):
Then non stop. It's nice. It is nice. It's really nice.
Welcome to episode one of the Tortoise. What a momentous occasion.

S1 (00:54):
Isn't it just. Isn't it? Isn't it?

S2 (00:57):
I guess we wanted to first of all, just go
through what it is the format of the podcast moving forward,
because it's going to be obviously different to the Slow
Home podcast. But we're going to be coming back to
a number of, I don't know, reoccurring topics, if you like,
throughout the episodes.

S1 (01:19):
Yeah, yeah, kind of segments, almost for want of a
better word segment.

S2 (01:24):
That sounds highly produced.

S1 (01:26):
Well, this is not that. So take that back.

S2 (01:30):
Yeah. So we want to kick off today's conversation, talking
about a topic that. I've been working on, if you like,
or kind of the. Deliberating on. Yes. For for a
couple of months. And we also want to the idea

(01:53):
behind this podcast is to deep dive onto a topic
into a topic. So we've read quite a lot on
the topic. We're not going to not always cite resources,
but it's just our observations based on what we've read
and what we've heard and what we've looked at.

S1 (02:08):
And viewing stuff through the lens of SLO, you know,
and the lens that we've developed ourselves over many years
of trying to live a slower kind of countercultural. Way
of life, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of viewing.
Things that they expand beyond the home. And I guess

(02:29):
that's one of the things that I really. Wanted to
move away from. As much as I loved the slow
home pod to move beyond that, you know, into work,
into community, into health, into family, into all that sort
of stuff that didn't necessarily fit neatly into the conversation
around home, even though we tried to be as expensive

(02:51):
as possible with that, I think some of the stuff
that we're going to tackle that we plan on tackling
this year on the Tortoise is. It's just not necessarily
stuff that we felt we could talk about on the
podcast as it was. So yeah, I'm excited to be
able to do that with. Freedom, you know? Sounds like

(03:11):
we were locked in. We weren't. But, you know, it
just feels.

S2 (03:15):
Exciting. Yeah, it does. It really does. It feels refreshing.
It feels. We've got our podcast, I got my Bud cast, baby.
We've got our podcast format back, which is Feels nice.

S1 (03:32):
It does go nice. Yeah. So yeah, today we're going
to dig into that topic and then we've also got
an article that I wanted to talk about because I
kind of it's really nice, but it's all.

S3 (03:47):
Yeah.

S1 (03:47):
Yeah. There's an article that I would like to talk
about because it kind of came up over on the
tortoise Substack a few weeks ago, and I've been thinking
about it a lot since, and then we're going to
have a check in and. Yeah.

S2 (03:59):
All right. Well, that's the format. Very loose, but that's,
I don't know, come to expect that because that's what
it's going to be like moving forward. So join with
us now. Grab your favorite cup of something, whatever it is.
Cup of Joe. Cup of water. Glass of water. What
are you drinking, bro?

S1 (04:21):
Absolutely nothing.

S2 (04:22):
Me neither. We need to probably hydrate. Let's get into it.
Translation for that is Brooke, how are you?

S1 (04:32):
Oh, I'm very well, Mr. Cockatoo. Thank you for asking.

S2 (04:36):
So this is a check in. We're going to do
this every episode. So. Yeah. Tell us, how are you
joining us today?

S1 (04:45):
Uh, I'm joining you wrapped in a blanket. I feel
like I'm fighting off a virus if I'm being perfectly
transparent with you. But I'm all right. I went to
bed at, like, 8:00 last night. I'm pretty early. Feeling
well rested, felt necessary, and I'm good. I'm good. How
about you?

S2 (05:07):
Um. I don't feel quite as rested. Disclosure. Recently, I.
I invested in one of these. Fitness trackers. And become
a kind of obsessed with it.

S1 (05:22):
This is the problem that people find with them. And you.

S4 (05:24):
Know what? I get it.

S2 (05:25):
I think I will be obsessed for the first two
weeks and then I'll be like, That's my personality. It's like, okay,
this is cool and I'll obsess about it. And then
I'll be like, Oh, that's not worth obsessing about. So
it's like the length of like the optimal length of
sleep you're getting and the quality of the sleep and
your sleep score and recovery and strain and all that

(05:46):
sort of stuff. So I'm, I'm lying in bed going, Ben, relax,
because your sleep score isn't going to be good if
you don't go to sleep soon.

S1 (05:57):
I get it though. So I've worn one of those
rings like a sleep tracking ring for a couple of years.
And the first probably month that I wore it, it
was the first thing I'd check in the morning, you know, And. Uh,
the nights that I would wake up in the morning,
I felt like I had a pretty good sleep. And
then I'd look at my sleep score and be like,

(06:19):
it says, it was terrible. Oh, I'm so tired. Was
I tired because my app told me that I didn't
sleep well? Was I tired because I actually was tired?
And you're right. Like that disappears after a while. It
is still really helpful and really handy at tracking long term.
It's good to be long.

S2 (06:39):
Term, right? Like it just can't be that short.

S1 (06:41):
But I think focusing on each night.

S4 (06:43):
Is that's.

S2 (06:44):
Going to be exhausting pretty quickly. Yeah. So I don't
think I'll be obsessed with that moving forward.

S1 (06:50):
How was your sleep score last night, though? Just had a.

S2 (06:52):
90%.

S4 (06:53):
It's pretty good. It's okay. It's pretty good. Yeah. I'm
a sleeper. Yeah.

S1 (06:58):
You are. You're very talented.

S4 (06:59):
I'm pretty good at sleeping.

S2 (07:02):
But. Yeah, so I feel. I feel okay. I feel okay.

S1 (07:06):
Yeah. You've been sick the.

S4 (07:07):
Last couple weeks.

S2 (07:08):
And look, all all the symptoms of COVID. But didn't
have it. But just exhausted. Just maybe like the old
common cold.

S4 (07:17):
Right?

S1 (07:17):
Yeah. Well, it's. It's going around. It's doing its thing.

S4 (07:20):
Doing its thing.

S2 (07:22):
And it is sort of weird, isn't it, when you
have a cold and you're like, but it's not COVID.
And so you think people are going to be less
sympathetic almost or. Yeah. Take you less, you know.

S4 (07:34):
Seriously. Seriously.

S2 (07:35):
Like, it's weird, isn't it? Yeah. It's still a cold.
It's still were.

S1 (07:38):
You were sick. You were literally in bed for three days. So.
And that does not really happen very often. Yeah. I'm
glad you're feeling better.

S2 (07:45):
I'm feeling okay. So that's how. That's how we are today.

S4 (07:49):
Yep. As we.

S2 (07:50):
As we now move on to our, I guess, topic
of the podcast.

S4 (07:56):
And do.

S1 (07:57):
We think that plug I think podcast is funny, but
I don't really know.

S2 (08:02):
Time will tell.

S3 (08:03):
Okay.

S2 (08:05):
So we're going to talk about this idea of the
four day working week.

S4 (08:11):
Hot.

S1 (08:11):
Button issue in Australia.

S4 (08:12):
At the moment really is.

S2 (08:14):
Like countless articles that have been written in the media
recently following two Australian political parties coming out recently and
putting forward a proposal or legislation for a four day
workweek at full pay following a number of trials internationally.
I think the US have led the way and I

(08:36):
think the UK.

S4 (08:36):
The UK as well. There was a number of trials.

S1 (08:40):
There was there was a trial in Australia that has
just ended and I think that a lot of the
findings have gone into the report that was put towards
the parliamentary committee recently because it was overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, funny.

S4 (08:53):
That well, this.

S2 (08:54):
Is the this is what we're seeing is that almost
every article, 99% of the articles I've read, they're the
results are all very, very positive from not only. Uh, the,
the mental aspect of a mental health aspect of it,
but from productivity, from morale, all the all like you

(09:16):
look at all the indicators and they're all very, very positive.
Based on what a four day workweek could look like
now full disclosure at the beginning of this year, in January,
you know, you'll always have well, is it a New
Year's resolution or is it a theme? Is it a
I don't know what it is. We don't we don't
really do New Year's resolutions, but we do have things

(09:37):
that we like to focus on this year and. For you. Remember,
we're sitting. Sitting down at our kitchen table, and you
came up with the concept of the 1%. Yes. And.

S1 (09:51):
Or I didn't.

S4 (09:52):
You didn't come up with it?

S1 (09:54):
I tapped into it myself. Yes.

S4 (09:56):
Yeah.

S2 (09:56):
And you. You started to explore that and what that
could look like from a in a slow living lens. Yes.
Which will go on to talk about in which you've
written about.

S1 (10:07):
Yeah. And we'll link to all of this in show
notes and whatnot. But yes.

S4 (10:11):
But then I was.

S2 (10:12):
Sort of. I was looking at. A post-COVID. Labor force
and looking at why I chose to go out and
essentially become self employed. And on that sort of freelance

(10:32):
project based engagements with my clients.

S1 (10:36):
Which was how long ago?

S2 (10:38):
Well, that was back in 2016. Yeah. That was a decision.
I guess, brought on by what we wanted to do
in travel and what we wanted to do in terms
of traveling and traveling with your books and doing book
tours and like this was a thing that we just
had to put in place before we were to do that.

(10:59):
So we did that. And then purely it's like a
lifestyle decision, really. It enables us to live. Out of Sydney.
Where the commute is not as. Because we're not commuting
every day. So it's not it's not as big a factor. Yes,

(11:20):
we still travel in the city, but it's not every day.

S1 (11:23):
Yeah, well, you do. I don't. Yeah.

S4 (11:24):
Yeah, I do.

S2 (11:26):
Uh. And so the lifestyle changes that's brought on. Being
self-employed have been massive and and for the most part very,
very positive. But then COVID came along. Right?

S4 (11:39):
And yes, I have heard of it with COVID.

S2 (11:42):
Everyone was working home from home anyway.

S1 (11:44):
Pretty much, yeah.

S2 (11:46):
And so I felt and this is going to sound
really privileged. What's in it for me? Where's my advantage now? Right.
Do you know what I mean? Like, and I know
that sounds really selfish, but it's. I took the risk
of going out, and there's massive amount of risk involved
in being self-employed. You carry a lot of that risk.
There's no security. Well, the argument is there's never any

(12:09):
security anyway.

S4 (12:10):
Yeah, but.

S1 (12:11):
Like, if you get booted by a client or that
can happen, it can happen overnight. And it did happen
overnight during COVID with multiple clients. It was like, Oh, sorry,
there's no work for you anymore. One day there was,
the next day there wasn't. So yes, there is absolutely
a huge amount of risk. There's no sick leave. There's
no holiday pay. There's no severance pay. There's none of that.
None of this is surprising, but it is part of

(12:33):
the risk of being self-employed and why it felt like
such a leap for us back in 2016, even though, yes,
we were doing it for reasons, good reasons, reasons that
were values aligned, it was still very risky. And you
were happy to take that risk because the payoff was flexibility.
Work from home, able to all those travel, all that

(12:56):
sort of stuff. And then COVID hit and then a
majority of the workforce was able to do what you
had been doing, essentially, which was working from home with
that flexibility, you know, painting it in a very positive light. Now,
at the time, it was bloody hard for everyone.

S4 (13:13):
100%.

S2 (13:15):
Because you were also teaching your kids as.

S4 (13:18):
Well, right?

S1 (13:18):
For a lot of people. Yeah. And, you know, living
through a global pandemic and all the uncertainty that came
with that. But I remember your frustration because you're like,
now everyone has the flexibility and the lifestyle stuff.

S2 (13:29):
It's a hybrid workforce now for the majority of white
collar workers is wonderful. Yeah, it's awesome because the benefits
are massive. Uh. So at the beginning of the year,
recognizing all that, and I was like, Well, what's the
next step? Like, what's the step that I could take
as a self-employed person that that positions myself in front

(13:50):
of the curve, if you like, makes you feel out
of the workforce. Like I'm getting like a little bit
of a cheat code, like I'm getting a a benefit
that other people aren't at the moment, you know what
I mean? Like just and just being sort of aware
of what the future of work looks like really, and
the trends. And so reading about this four day workweek,

(14:10):
I'm like, giddy up. Like that sounds that sounds great.
And so I was challenged myself at the beginning of
the year. I spoke to you and I said, I'm
going to as of. April trial, a four day work week.

(14:30):
And you then you said quite rightly, what does that
look like for your clients and how how do you
actually how will you actually do that? And. That's when
the I don't know, like the rubber hit the road
was like that's that's a very hard as a self-employed
person to to manage. Yeah because as an employed person

(14:53):
if you want to go down if you want to
do a four day work week, it's a one conversation.

S4 (14:57):
And a contract.

S1 (14:58):
Change to the contract or.

S4 (14:59):
Stuff.

S2 (15:00):
With me, it's having multiple conversations and you need to
align all those conversations. Yeah. So that's where I'm up to.
Full disclosure, That's where I'm up to is is sort
of working out. How I have that conversations and convince
people that. Of the research of the proof in the

(15:21):
data of the trials that you will get increased productivity.
You will get the same level of service. You get
a happier Ben McAlary? Uh, yeah. So that's, that's where
that's sort of where I've got to. And I've started

(15:42):
to have those conversations.

S1 (15:44):
Yeah. And what does that look like?

S2 (15:46):
Um. I've just been quite open and honest and just
saying I'm going to be unavailable on this day from
this date. Right?

S1 (15:58):
And what's the response been typically?

S2 (16:02):
No problem.

S1 (16:03):
Interesting.

S2 (16:05):
Okay. This is only with, like, one client so far. Okay.
I've only had that conversation, but, yeah, I've got to
have it with multiples, but, like, that's. I was expecting.

S4 (16:17):
Something different.

S1 (16:18):
You're expecting pushback or.

S3 (16:19):
Yeah.

S1 (16:20):
Yeah. Do you think that, at least in part, the
acceptance Hard to say when it was just one person
or one one client that. In part, it's it's not
a crazy idea anymore. Like the conversation publicly in the
media is that a four day workweek has merit. Whether

(16:40):
or not organizations are going to adopt it is a
whole other thing. But there's merit there. And it is
no longer like the outlier who is suggesting this. Do
you think that that's at least part of the reason
why there was no pushback?

S2 (16:55):
I think there was no pushback because I didn't say
I'm having a four day working week. Right. Okay. I'm
just having I'm not working for you on this day.

S1 (17:04):
I'm I'm unavailable.

S4 (17:06):
On this.

S1 (17:07):
Day from this date. Yeah.

S4 (17:08):
Okay.

S2 (17:08):
So I'm not saying it's the because I still think
there's probably a lot of stigma around it.

S4 (17:13):
Do you? Yeah.

S1 (17:14):
Yeah. So you operate in that realm and don't so yeah.

S2 (17:20):
I mean, I think a lot of people with this
sort of these sort of issues initially quite reluctant to
want to be the the first in market to do
it even though the trials are.

S4 (17:31):
Saying there's.

S1 (17:32):
Certainly nowhere near the first in market anymore.

S4 (17:34):
But yeah anymore but.

S2 (17:35):
Within Australia and look there's probably companies in Australia are
already doing it. There is.

S4 (17:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah there is.

S2 (17:42):
So yeah, so I so this is, this whole thing
was based on. My level of not being able to
disconnect from work because everyone has a right to disconnect
from work.

S1 (17:57):
Yes, some countries are actually legislating that now.

S2 (18:00):
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, by not answering phone calls
out of hours or emails outside of work hours. That's
crept into my. Yes, my the way that I operate,
particularly with the kids leaving home early before. Uh, earlier

(18:23):
than previous years. They're heading off earlier. They're both in
high school now, so. There's more time for me to
be in front of my computer. And I recognizing this. I'm.
There's no benefit Like there's. That's annoyed me that I've
just gone. Well I can fill that with with work

(18:44):
and productivity for the sake of productivity.

S4 (18:47):
Right.

S1 (18:49):
Are you? Do you think you're getting through more work
because of that, or are you?

S2 (18:55):
I really don't.

S4 (18:55):
Know. No.

S1 (18:56):
It's hard for you to track.

S2 (18:57):
Yeah, I really don't know.

S1 (18:59):
So that's that's interesting that the frustration with, like, productivity
creep and. Email creep and, you know. Availability creep has
flagged with you because mean I've noticed it, but I
think that that's also a quite a common problem at

(19:21):
the moment with the hybrid lots more people working from
home more. There's huge amounts of research being done and,
you know, articles being written about. Exactly that. The boundaries
have blurred significantly for people, you know, between work and

(19:42):
home and tech always made it tricky. But the fact
that home is work for a lot of people now. Yeah, yeah.

S4 (19:49):
That's yeah.

S1 (19:50):
Is making it harder again for people to extricate themselves mentally.
So that's interesting that that has kind of been highlighted
to you as well. Yeah.

S2 (20:05):
Let me ask you this question. Okay. Do you think
we are working more than we did, say, 20 to
30 years ago?

S1 (20:14):
How do you mean? More like.

S4 (20:16):
Hours.

S2 (20:16):
Hours in a week? Do you think we're working more
as an average?

S1 (20:23):
Yes. Without like more context than that. Like you're talking
about Australia, what kind of workers are you talking about?
All that sort of stuff. But yes, I would say
that yes, we are.

S2 (20:31):
In the developed world in what I call richer nations.
We are working far less than we did 30 years ago,
which absolutely shocks me because I feel like. I wasn't
in the workforce 30 years ago.

S4 (20:49):
No, but I.

S2 (20:51):
Kind of was 20 years ago.

S1 (20:53):
You definitely were 20 years ago.

S2 (20:54):
But as a as a as a. Average. The population
is working. Far less. There's a few reasons for this.
So casualisation of the workforce, right? More people working part
time compared to 20 or 30 years ago.

S4 (21:12):
The gig economy, gig economy.

S2 (21:15):
So all these all these new sort of labor forces.

S1 (21:18):
Which are far less secure, far.

S4 (21:20):
Less secure.

S2 (21:22):
Um, generally pay far less, uh.

S1 (21:27):
Zero benefits. Zero like, yeah.

S2 (21:29):
Like not zero, but yes, less benefits and all that
sort of stuff. So. Yeah. To me, I was like, wow,
that that's. That's shocking. Yeah, we are. Mental health is,
you know, it's never been.

S1 (21:46):
Worse. Yeah. And burnout is huge. That's really interesting. So why.

S4 (21:52):
Is that?

S1 (21:55):
I think that being on constant, this is just my theory.
This is not based in anything scientific. I think that
people are just constantly on, you know, and even if
they are not working, I know this is the case
for a lot of people who work in hospitality, for example,
or health care because of the casualisation of the workforce,

(22:15):
they need to be ready to say yes to a
shift tomorrow, today, tonight, whatever, you know, so people aren't
given the opportunity for what was the traditional 48 hours
away from work or more, you know, so people don't
ever get that time to decompress. And I'd say that

(22:38):
a lot of people like information workers and, you know,
people who even aren't in those casualised sort of industries
are feeling the same for different reasons because they're constantly
attached to their email. They're getting text messages. They are
expected to answer the phone even if it is out

(22:58):
of work hours. So again, people aren't getting the time
to decompress. So it feels like we are working more,
even if, as you say, on average it's on the
average is important. On average, people are working less.

S2 (23:14):
Because 30 years ago people didn't need a dual income
to survive, right?

S4 (23:20):
Right. Yeah.

S2 (23:20):
And now that's pretty useful.

S1 (23:24):
It's pretty much par for the course. Of course. Yeah.
If you're in a in a relationship and your cost
of living. Is such that there is virtually no way
one partner. Yeah can. And everything you need in order
to make ends meet. And that's even looking back, like

(23:45):
when we grew up, my mom was at home until
I was in primary school, so she got a job
when I was in primary school, part time job. Even
that like that. I would have said years ago that
that was stereotyped. Like that was the typical situation. It
wasn't like even, you know, 30, 40 years ago. That
wasn't necessarily the the the typical situation, but it was

(24:09):
more common. Like now, it's I think it would be
quite uncommon. I could be wrong, but I mean, again.
Where's the census data? And I can tell you that, yeah,
I think it would be uncommon. Yeah. So cost of
living is a huge part of it too. Huge. And
then you so you've got stress of meeting the rising

(24:30):
cost of living. Wages are not increasing. Wages are decreasing
on in a in a real world sense. Um. It's brutal.
So I think that. It makes sense that we feel
that we're working more even if we're working less.

S2 (24:46):
Now, I do need to put a caveat. There's a
huge difference between richer and poorer nations with this. So
richer nations are working fewer hours.

S4 (24:57):
On average, on average.

S2 (24:58):
Poorer nations are working far more. Right. Okay. So, yeah,
look at like agricultural intensive industry within developing nations and
they're working. 24 over seven. So the average is greater there.
So I think innovation tech has a lot to do

(25:20):
with it, but it's not the answer. Right? Like at
the end of the day, it's a tool. And technology
as a tool is winning.

S5 (25:29):
Yep.

S1 (25:31):
Yeah, it's it's interesting, though, if we come back to
the four day workweek for. People like you, people like me, who,
you know, work mostly on computers. Where knowledge workers. There
is an argument that a four day work week will
be made more broadly possible by. Embracing what tech offers

(25:58):
for efficiency sake, whether that's AI, whether that's, you know,
just being smarter with the way that we use technology
to reduce what is required of us. That sounds all
well and good until you put your corporate overlord hat
on and they're like, Oh, are you doing less work?
So we won't pay you as much? You can have

(26:19):
a four day workweek, but we'll pay you for days.
That's not what a four day workweek promises. A four
day workweek, as it's being discussed at the moment is
about working for four days a week.

S4 (26:30):
Same pace, same.

S1 (26:30):
Benefits, same pay, same benefits. Yes. So I think that's
an important distinction to make. We're not talking about robots
taking our jobs. And giving us less work to do
because that will ultimately just result in us. Being paid less.
That's not really the point. Although there is some evidence
that certain parts of the workforce would take a pay

(26:51):
cut if.

S4 (26:53):
They'd be able.

S2 (26:53):
To have a full day.

S4 (26:54):
Yes, but.

S1 (26:55):
I don't think that's most people.

S3 (26:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Um.

S2 (26:59):
So anyway, come with us on this journey as I
explore the four day workweek and what that looks like.
So I'm not doing it now. Like, it's not hasn't
started yet. I'm in the process of managing expectations around it. Yeah.

S1 (27:17):
Which takes me to this article on The Guardian or
the AFR actually, which I'll link to in the show
notes that spoke to a number of. Managers for different
organizations of different kinds of businesses that trialed the four
day workweek. And I thought it was really interesting because

(27:38):
one of them was like a larger corporate office, you know,
that you would typically think of as well suited for
a four day workweek. So they were involved. But there
was also a fish and chip shop somewhere in the
UK because that's a an argument that I often hear
that's against the four day workweek, which is tradespeople, service.

S4 (27:58):
And.

S1 (27:58):
Anyone who works in service industry, hospitality, health care, that
sort of stuff. It's not well suited to a four
day workweek. And absolutely that is the case for some
industries and some work. There is no way around that.
But I still don't think that that's a good reason
for it to not be applicable to certain industries when possible.

(28:21):
So it was really interesting to see the different challenges
that those two businesses faced. So the corporate business, he
joked and he said, like, I think it was six
months of six day weeks in order to prepare us
for the four day workweek. And because, you know, you

(28:42):
think about having to look at everyone's job description and
what their outputs are and, you know, what the flow
on effects of changing that. Like, let's say they don't
no one works on a Wednesday. What does that look
like for their suppliers and for their customers and all
that sort of stuff? So there was a huge amount

(29:02):
of preparation in order to. Take part in this trial.
And then the fish and chip shop like they're seasonal, right?
So they are in a coastal tourist town. There is
3 or 4 months of the year where it is
simply not feasible for them to work four days a week,
even if. And I'd read somewhere recently about like somewhere

(29:23):
in the States, maybe that was giving hospitality workers the
option of working their five days of eight hour shifts
or working four days of ten hour shifts. So, you know,
that has always been something that I was curious about
as an option for hospitality. But instead of doing that,
this fish and chip shop owner, um. Made it known,

(29:48):
I guess, that during peak season, his workers, his employees
would work longer hours and in the off season they
would work 32 hours a week as opposed to a
higher workload. And then in the slow season, they would
work 24 hours a week all for the same pay. Yeah.
So there'd be periods where they would work very full
time hours and then periods where they work part time

(30:09):
hours for full time pay. And that seemed to work
really well for them to the point where they're going
to continue with the the equivalent of a four day workweek.

S4 (30:17):
It's so powerful.

S2 (30:18):
That it's such long term thinking and the the scarcity
mindset of a of an employer. And if I put
myself in the shoes of that owner of that fish
and chip shop, it would be okay. So I'm I'm
taking on these employees at any time they could leave.

(30:39):
You know what? If they're leaving in the slow season
when they're not, um, or they're just here for the
slow season. Right. Sorry. They're just here for the slow
season and they're getting paid full pay, not working a,
you know, full day or full week. And and then
when it comes and when it comes busier, they leave. Sure.

(31:00):
Do you know what I mean?

S4 (31:01):
So invested all this fear based, fee based.

S2 (31:03):
And so that's that's just a whole psyche change. Yeah.

S1 (31:07):
And it's got to me it's about becoming human centered
rather than profit centered. And I know I live in
an idealist world in my own head. I understand that.
And I'm so often frustrated by the fact that others don't,
you know. And so for me, I always pass things
through the lens of people first. And I know that

(31:30):
that's not how the world works, but that's what we
need to do if we want to embrace that. Uh,
the abundance based mindset rather than the fear based mindset
that you described. But that's not taking into account the
wellbeing of employees. So maybe someone's like, Yeah, maybe I

(31:51):
will come in for the flu season and work three
months at part time and get paid full time. But
at the end of those three months, perhaps they are
so enamored with the fact that the employer. Writes their
well-being so highly that they've realized they've become loyal to
this person. Absolutely. You know, they've realized that actually I'm
not going to get this sense, this level of investment

(32:13):
in my well being anywhere else. So I'm going to stay,
you know, and.

S2 (32:17):
The value that that would have is incredible. Yeah.

S1 (32:21):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's really interesting in
case study.

S4 (32:24):
It is. Yeah. Thank you. Good. Yeah.

S1 (32:27):
I liked it because it wasn't the traditional white collar example.

S2 (32:31):
So what I'm going to try instead of the four
day workweek is a six month on and then six
month off.

S1 (32:38):
But there are people who do that too. What there
are so people I mean, these are people and like
someone who does the work I do could possibly do
something like that. You know, writers, creators. Um. Creatives could
potentially do that. Like you work intensively on a project,
a book, a movie or whatever. And you put everything

(33:02):
you have into it and then you go on sabbatical
for six months.

S2 (33:05):
Oh, that's amazing.

S4 (33:06):
But there aren't there are.

S1 (33:07):
People who do it. They weren't.

S2 (33:08):
I couldn't do it. But it.

S4 (33:09):
Sounds amazing.

S1 (33:10):
No, you couldn't do it with the work that you do.
I don't think most actually, I.

S2 (33:12):
Don't think I could even if I could, if you
know what I mean. Yeah. Okay. Like six months being
on for six months, not having any break, you know,
just powering through. I think I get pretty sick.

S1 (33:26):
Yeah. And that. I don't know. All I know is
that I had read that certain people do that and
they seem to love it. So, you know.

S3 (33:34):
Yeah.

S1 (33:34):
And I mean, what's on right is on like 40
hours a week is on 80 hours a week is
on 120 hours a week. Yeah. Yeah. So the flip side, though,
to the four day workweek and I think it's pretty
obvious we are. Absolutely. In the camp of yes, four
day work week for so many reasons. For people's well-being.

S4 (33:53):
Well enough to trial it. Yeah.

S1 (33:55):
Yes, sure. I mean. I am anyway, because. Anything that
can lead to people being more well, people feeling more grounded,
people having time and space and buffer and margin in
their life to. Live differently. I'm awful. Yeah. You know.

(34:19):
But also, as I said, I know that that's an idealists. Uh,
view of the world. Nothing wrong with that.

S6 (34:27):
But I understand that, but.

S1 (34:30):
So the flip side of it is. The laziness implication.
A lot of people will imply or assume that there
is laziness attached to this desire to only want to
work four days a week. I disagree completely. It's people
wanting to find some measure of balance in their life.

(34:50):
And I think that. If it was rolled out widely,
we would discover that in fact people weren't being lazy.
Productivity doesn't decrease people's happiness, people's wellbeing, people's mental and
physical health, improve their relationships, improve communities, improve and look,
look at the flow on effect. That's what I believe

(35:10):
would happen. But you cannot. Have this conversation without someone
piping up saying it's just young people being lazy. And you.

S2 (35:17):
Know what? That's the capitalist society we live in. And
I don't want to get too deep into this this.
But capitalism by definition, is productivity being as productive as
possible and earning. A living based on that.

S4 (35:32):
Productivity, even.

S1 (35:33):
Even like my argument for that is they've shown that
productivity increases on a four day week anyway like this.
The trial has shown that it's like 25% increase. To me,
that's not the point. But regardless that that takes that
argument away.

S2 (35:48):
It does. And that's why and that's essentially while why
it's been considered by so many companies.

S4 (35:53):
Right, because of.

S1 (35:54):
The bottom line.

S4 (35:55):
The productivity, not because.

S1 (35:56):
People are happier or healthier.

S4 (35:58):
That's a nice side effect.

S3 (35:59):
Oh, God.

S1 (36:01):
So depressing.

S2 (36:04):
But capitalism's capitalist theory is that. Yeah. We need to
be productive. If we're not, that's then we're sitting idle
and that's wastage. So that's why when we when when
you sit there and do nothing, you're subconsciously thinking I
should be doing something.

S4 (36:22):
Oh, it's.

S1 (36:23):
Been completely ingrained into us. 100%. Yeah. But also, I
would I would posit that the fear is people who
have time on their hands have time to think, and
people who think people are people who start to think
critically about the world we live in and perhaps we
can do it differently. And perhaps.

S4 (36:44):
We.

S2 (36:44):
Go, we're going.

S4 (36:45):
Down a rabbit hole.

S1 (36:46):
No, I'm not going to go. But but honestly, I
do believe that that is. I don't think there's any
one puppet master pulling those strings. But I think that
over time that has become the norm, is that people
are far more likely to buy stuff, to buy into things, to,
you know, become a cog in the marketing machine that

(37:09):
is the world if we don't have time to stop
and think. Yep. Truly. And that's why I think that
slow living can be a genuinely world changing idea because
it gives people the opportunity to stop and think and
it is uncomfortable. The things that you stop and think
about are uncomfortable. But. I. I truly believe that there

(37:33):
is an element to this work, work, work, work mentality
that is about. Air control sounds ridiculous, but it's about
maximizing money.

S4 (37:47):
Yeah, it's about money. Yeah. Yeah.

S2 (37:49):
How funny. I'm just smirking because I'm thinking about my
check in and how I'm. Now I've got a fitness tracker,
and it's all about optimization and productivity.

S6 (38:00):
Is it, though, that's one side or is it about well-being?

S7 (38:05):
Oh, that's true.

S2 (38:07):
There's an argument for both.

S4 (38:08):
There is?

S1 (38:08):
Yeah. It depends how you use it.

S4 (38:10):
Yeah.

S1 (38:11):
If you're like, using it to hack, like, biohacking and
and whatnot, then, you know, perhaps that's, that's.

S6 (38:17):
That's about.

S1 (38:18):
You know, reaching your optimum potential versus well being or,
you know, um. Navigating life in a way that creates
the least amount of stress. Yeah.

S2 (38:34):
Yeah. Anyway, so that's the four day workweek. This is
going to be a recurring topic. I'm going to. I'm
not going to spend a lot of time on it
in future episodes, but I will provide an update on
what it's looking like and how I'm managing expectations. And yeah.

S1 (38:50):
So just from you personally rather than the global. Exactly.

S4 (38:52):
Exactly.

S1 (38:53):
Can I ask you a question before we move on? Sure.
One of the other arguments against the four day workweek
is that people will use their day off to go
and get another job. And that will in turn lead
to either poorer performance in their main job the four

(39:17):
day a week job or burnout. I can absolutely see
how people would do that, because the cost of living
crisis is very real and brutal and people are struggling
to make ends meet. So I get that concern.

S2 (39:32):
People have got side hustles now and a five day
work rate. Yeah.

S1 (39:38):
So that would just free them up to do their
side hustle on another day.

S6 (39:43):
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good point.

S1 (39:45):
I hadn't really.

S6 (39:46):
Thought about that, but.

S1 (39:46):
I'd love to know what percentage of people do have
some kind of side hustle.

S2 (39:52):
Yeah, that would be interesting, actually.

S3 (39:54):
Yeah.

S1 (39:55):
So I think. Okay, let's like, follow that argument through though,
which is. Yes. Let's say people move to a four
day workweek. They go and get another job to. Boost
their bank account. Will that lead to burnout? Probably. But
people are already burning out on five days anyway. So

(40:19):
what do we do as a society? Like, how do we.
Negate that need for people to feel like they or
not just feel like they have to to have to
go and get a second job to plug the gap.
We raise wages. We look at things like universal basic income.
You know, like this is where the opportunity for creativity

(40:43):
and leadership really comes in. I'm not asking you to like,
give your personal thoughts on it, but to me, it's
just an interesting offshoot of the conversation. It's like, how
human centered can we make the economy? And what would the.
Flow on effects of that be.

S2 (41:03):
So the skeptics will will no doubt have that argument
in their back pockets. When more organizations move to the
four day workweek. Just as like hybrid work, the hybrid
workforce and the skeptics around people working from home have
come out and said it's not good for collaboration and

(41:23):
it's not good for mental health. And like, do you
know what I mean? Like, there's always going to be
people that Sure.

S4 (41:27):
Of which they.

S1 (41:28):
I think that there is some merit to those arguments
based on individual people, based on the work that they do,
based on the organizations they work for. I'm not I'm
not pooh poohing that at all. And I don't think
that there is a one size fits all. Like just
because I am a super introverted person who. Very happily
works in my own company doesn't mean that that's going

(41:51):
to suit everyone, you know. And I think that hybrid
tends to be what is working for people like on
the main. Yeah. Now as we move into whatever comes
post lockdowns and um. Yeah.

S4 (42:06):
Sorry I interrupted you.

S2 (42:07):
So the question is, honey, what am I going to
do with that one day that I don't want?

S4 (42:12):
I don't know. What are you going to do?

S2 (42:15):
Um, well, I think that's another discussion. Okay. Because.

S4 (42:19):
Yeah, you don't know yet.

S2 (42:21):
Well, no, I have. I kind of do know what
I'm going to be doing. Okay. And it will be
upskilling based on the work that I do and it
becoming redundant in the next three years.

S1 (42:34):
Yeah. So this is another conversation.

S2 (42:36):
This is a this is another conversation which we will have. Yeah.
But yeah, let's do it in another episode. Okay, let's
get on to.

S8 (42:47):
Hobbies?

S1 (42:48):
Yes. So this part of the conversation was sort of
prompted by an article that I read.

S6 (42:56):
And The Guardian.

S1 (42:56):
Maybe I'll link to it in the show notes.

S6 (42:59):
About the.

S1 (43:01):
Benefits of having hobbies that we are mediocre at.

S6 (43:06):
Like things that we suck at. And it was written
by someone who has.

S1 (43:09):
Been surfing for 20 or 30 years and is still
genuinely terrible at it, but loves it, loves it because
they are genuinely terrible at it. And they had a
perspective that I had not.

S6 (43:25):
Uh, really considered.

S1 (43:27):
Before, which was that if you want to, if your
aim is to get better at something, a hobby, for example,
then you open up. The prospect of failure. So trying
to get better means that you can fail. So they're like,
I don't want to try and get better because this
is something I enjoy as it is just for the

(43:48):
sheer love of it, trying to get better, getting lessons, whatever.
Watching YouTube tutorials like that then changes my mindset away
from one of enjoyment to one of improvement. And I
had never considered that before. But I think that there's
definitely an element of truth to it. The comments were
so interesting because most people had this very capitalistic mentality

(44:12):
of like, Why wouldn't you want to get better at it?
Whereas this person was like, I don't because I don't
want to. I just don't want I love.

S6 (44:19):
Sucking at it.

S1 (44:20):
Yeah, because it is enjoyable, because it is an exercise
in movement or mindfulness or play or whatever it is
not about.

S6 (44:32):
Getting better. What do you think about that?

S4 (44:34):
It's such a.

S2 (44:36):
Look. Five years ago, I would have been on the whole.
Just give up now.

S4 (44:41):
Like, why?

S1 (44:42):
If I'm not going to be good, I'm not going
to do it.

S4 (44:44):
Exactly.

S2 (44:44):
But. I really love embracing the beginner mindset. Being a beginner.
In something. It's so cool.

S6 (44:58):
Okay. That is very different to how you used to be.

S4 (45:00):
Because.

S2 (45:01):
You don't get those first. Big, like baby steps again.
Like when you when you do something new. Those those
little baby steps, they're so enjoyable because they're so basic
and they're so they're so hard. And it's funny, like
how hard it is. And just embracing that beginner mindset

(45:26):
is those and also when you're a beginner. You get
better really, really quickly.

S6 (45:35):
I think that's the opposite to the point of the article.

S2 (45:41):
But it's inevitable, right?

S4 (45:42):
Like if you.

S6 (45:43):
Apparently not.

S2 (45:44):
Come on. If they've been surfing for 30 years. They
they would have started by not being able to actually
stand up on the surface.

S6 (45:54):
Okay, I get your point.

S2 (45:55):
They now would be able to stand up on the surfboard.

S1 (45:58):
I'm assuming.

S4 (45:58):
So I.

S2 (45:59):
Don't.

S4 (46:00):
So there's a big thing, isn't it? There's a big.

S2 (46:02):
Difference between laying on a board and surfing. Do you
know what I mean? Yeah, the. Yeah. So I guess
you're right. I'm still in that camp of. But.

S6 (46:14):
And you are like, I am.

S1 (46:16):
I am you and I learnt to ski.

S6 (46:18):
At the same.

S1 (46:18):
Time, right? We did it with no lessons. We took
a chairlift to the top of a mountain, strapped skis
to our feet and we're like, Let's get to the bottom.

S4 (46:28):
Because that's how we.

S2 (46:28):
Learnt to snowboard like 20, 20 years.

S4 (46:31):
Before.

S6 (46:32):
It's infuriating because you're like.

S1 (46:33):
Captain Competent.

S6 (46:35):
And you're like, It's fine. You just lean into it.
You just use your edges. I'm like, What are you
talking about?

S1 (46:39):
And it took me so long to get to the
same point that you got to within the first day.
So I think that you are just someone who. At
least with physical, like hobbies, things like that. You have that.
Natural capacity to learn on the fly to embody your
lessons really quickly. I'm not.

S2 (47:01):
So maybe this question is for you then, because yeah,
I took that whole article and the whole theme and
embracing the beginner mindset because I love Yeah, I love
that feeling of learning something new because you do make
huge strides very quickly, or I do.

S1 (47:22):
Do you then get bored.

S6 (47:24):
With something like once you've.

S1 (47:26):
Gotten beyond the beginner mindset and you're at like an intermediate.

S2 (47:30):
So the gains, the gains and advantages slow down? Yeah.

S4 (47:33):
Do you then.

S1 (47:34):
Get bored and give up?

S2 (47:36):
Well then it will come down to how much I
really want to do something right. Is, you know, am I.
Am I benefiting from it? Is it fun?

S4 (47:46):
Right, Right.

S2 (47:47):
Yeah. Which kind of taps into the themes of that article.
They're doing it because they just love it, right? Like,
they just. It's pure. Like, just. Enjoyment. Okay. So my
question for you then is. Talk about. Pottery as an

(48:10):
example of a hobby that you've started. Later in the
next couple of years.

S4 (48:17):
What's that been like?

S1 (48:18):
It's been really interesting, actually. And this is what I wanted.
This is why I wanted to touch on this topic,
because I wrote about it a couple of weeks ago
and got some really interesting responses. So I started pottery.
I don't know. You bought me like a class pass
Class Promise 2021.

S4 (48:38):
Yeah, right. Okay.

S1 (48:39):
And I went for three months, absolutely loved it and
fell in love with it.

S6 (48:46):
Immediately and within. I'm going to say 3 or 4 weeks.

S1 (48:51):
I was coming.

S6 (48:52):
Home.

S1 (48:52):
And saying things to you.

S6 (48:54):
Like.

S1 (48:54):
I'd like I'd love to start my own little pottery studio.

S2 (48:57):
And start selling some. Yeah, I.

S6 (48:59):
Mean, I could barely throw like, anything at this point.

S2 (49:02):
You had a store somewhere, like.

S4 (49:04):
You know, like. Yeah.

S6 (49:06):
And this is a pattern.

S1 (49:08):
That I have followed over and over and over. It
is literally how I ended up with an accidental jewelry
label that lasted me six years. I enjoyed making jewelry,
and suddenly people are like.

S6 (49:21):
You should, you should sell these at markets.

S1 (49:23):
I'm like, Yeah, should. And it gave a reason or
a purpose to what was previously a hobby. And that's
where I landed with pottery as well. I'm like, Well,
if I'm going to be spending this time and money
doing this thing, it should pay its own way. And
I've since walked that back because I realized that I

(49:45):
stopped enjoying it as much when I started to think
about what it would look like to have a creative
side hustle like that. Um, and it's, it's not the
reason I was doing it, the reason I wanted to
do it and the reason I actually really enjoyed it
is because it is a, it's a sensory creative experience.

(50:07):
And when I'm at the pottery studio.

S6 (50:09):
I don't think about anything else. I just make and
it's delightful.

S1 (50:15):
And even if I have.

S6 (50:16):
To drag myself there.

S1 (50:19):
Really don't want to go. Other stuff that I should
be doing every time I go and sit down. I'm
grateful and I'm so glad that I showed up. So
I shared a quote over on the tortoise a couple
of weeks ago from Tricia Hersey, who is the founder
of the NAP Ministry. And people had some thoughts on it.

S6 (50:43):
Okay.

S1 (50:43):
Yeah. So her quote is being booked and busy is
not a flex to me. Being relaxed and aligned and
living in leisure with hobbies you don't monetize is a
flex to me. You'll be proud of overworking and constant labor.
It makes no sense.

S6 (51:01):
And I get why people were.

S1 (51:02):
Rattled by that, because it really does challenge our.

S6 (51:06):
Mentality. And the one.

S1 (51:07):
That I have carried around with me for a very
long time of this needs to make monetary sense. So
that was I think it ruffled some feathers because and
I don't necessarily say that I agree with that in
like a black and white sense, I think that there's
going to be a whole spectrum of.

S6 (51:28):
People's experience.

S1 (51:30):
Around hobbies. And sometimes people do take up a hobby
and they realize that they could genuinely make it a
side hustle or their work.

S6 (51:40):
That's how I became a.

S1 (51:41):
Writer by doing that. That's true. You know, it was
a hobby for a very, very long time before I
ever earned a cent from it. So I have no
issue with monetizing our hobbies. But I think it's just
interesting that that is. Almost always my go to first
and I have to walk myself back from it.

S6 (52:02):
So yeah, I think that the idea of having.

S1 (52:06):
Hobbies that are simply for enjoyment sake.

S6 (52:10):
Is something that.

S1 (52:11):
I'm going to keep.

S6 (52:12):
Exploring.

S3 (52:15):
What are your hobbies?

S2 (52:17):
My hobbies are, I guess is fitness or hobby? No,
that's a that's a, I guess a a category onto itself,
isn't it?

S4 (52:28):
Yeah.

S1 (52:28):
I mean, is a hobby something that you do without purpose?

S4 (52:33):
Like it's almost like.

S2 (52:34):
Saying is meditation or.

S4 (52:36):
Hobby. I don't know.

S1 (52:37):
That has purpose to everything, has purpose or if you
want it to. Yeah, I mean you.

S2 (52:42):
I don't have a traditional hobby, I will say that.

S1 (52:46):
So you're learning Japanese?

S4 (52:48):
Yeah.

S1 (52:49):
Would you classify that as a hobby?

S4 (52:50):
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either.

S2 (52:54):
Because I do want to be a translator.

S6 (52:59):
By the time you're 80. That's what you're up skilling for?

S3 (53:04):
Exactly. Yeah.

S1 (53:05):
So, okay, you learn Japanese and there is obviously a
purpose to that, which is to be able to speak Japanese. But,
you know, are you doing it because you enjoy it
for the process or are you doing it because of
the outcome?

S2 (53:18):
I'm doing it to. Improve my mental. Physical mental.

S4 (53:27):
Power. Okay. Okay. So it's a brain.

S2 (53:30):
A brain power type. Thing is. Yeah, that's basically what
I'm doing it. And next time I go to Japan,
I'd like to be able to converse.

S3 (53:40):
Sure. That's a cool.

S6 (53:41):
Yeah, cool kind of goal.

S1 (53:43):
You play golf? Would you say golf as a hobby?

S2 (53:46):
It's not a sport, that's for sure.

S3 (53:48):
Oh.

S1 (53:50):
Well, then his chest was bought.

S2 (53:52):
Yeah. So I think I have a lot in saying
I don't have traditional hobbies. I have a lot of
things that I like to do that are either leisure,
leisure based.

S6 (54:03):
You're describing hobbies.

S1 (54:05):
You surf.

S4 (54:06):
Okay, Surfing.

S1 (54:07):
We stand up, paddle board.

S2 (54:09):
You know, fitness, CrossFit type, exercising, um, video games. Reading. Reading.

S4 (54:19):
Yeah. Playing guitar. Playing guitar. Yeah.

S1 (54:23):
You don't have any hobbies?

S2 (54:24):
Okay, but I kind of. I don't have like a
hobby that I would hang my head on. Of all
those things, like what am I like? What's my main hobby?
I don't think I could tell. You know, I don't
think I'd have one.

S6 (54:41):
You're multi potential, right?

S2 (54:43):
Yeah. I would love to have a hobby. And I.
I envy the people that have their one hobby that
they are just. It's almost all consuming.

S3 (54:55):
But then that.

S4 (54:55):
Goes like back to like.

S2 (54:56):
A train. A toy train. Yeah. Okay.

S1 (55:00):
Model the Walt Disney Neil Young type.

S4 (55:03):
Yeah. Yeah.

S2 (55:04):
I would never do that. That does not interest me,
but the equivalent.

S4 (55:07):
Right. Okay.

S1 (55:08):
When you said train, I thought of that guy who
is like, huge on TikTok and YouTube, you know, the
guy who wears the head mounted.

S6 (55:16):
And he's forget his.

S1 (55:17):
Name, but he's obsessed with.

S6 (55:19):
He's just so joyful.

S2 (55:20):
The passion. That's what I want. I want that passion. Right.

S6 (55:24):
So then going back to the article that like led
us into this part of the.

S1 (55:27):
That's almost the opposite of that. So this person, the surfer,
is like, I do it, you know, Saturday morning and
it is. It is this window of time where I
happily suck and then I move on with my life
and it's like it's enjoyable for what it is, but
it is not all consuming. It is not like my

(55:48):
great passion. Yeah, I'm not saying there's like, right or wrong.
I just think it's really interesting that.

S6 (55:53):
We can.

S1 (55:54):
Create space in our lives for hobbies and they can
take up vastly different amounts of emotional space. That's so.

S2 (56:02):
True. Yeah.

S6 (56:04):
Yeah. And I go through periods.

S1 (56:05):
I think, where I have almost an obsession with certain hobbies.
And then there's other ones that I just slip in
and out of because they are literally enjoyable. And so
I pop in and I enjoy them and then I
pop out. Mm.

S4 (56:24):
Hobbes. Hobbes.

S2 (56:25):
Man, they're.

S7 (56:26):
Weird.

S1 (56:27):
I would love to know people listening. What your hobbies
are because.

S6 (56:33):
People have really cool hobbies.

S4 (56:34):
Oh so.

S2 (56:35):
Cool. I get hobby envy.

S3 (56:38):
That's interesting.

S2 (56:41):
Why I surface level hobby.

S6 (56:44):
But that's okay.

S2 (56:46):
I don't want to be like that surfer.

S6 (56:49):
Why you're having a really hard time with that. Why?

S7 (56:54):
Because I don't like it. Sucks to suck.

S6 (56:58):
I think it's enjoyable to suck.

S7 (57:00):
This is me saying at the beginning of this conversation.

S2 (57:03):
Being a beginner is so joyful.

S3 (57:06):
I don't think you.

S6 (57:07):
Believed that.

S1 (57:08):
Even when you said.

S3 (57:08):
It.

S2 (57:10):
I'm gonna have to take that one day just to
do some self.

S7 (57:14):
Self analysis.

S4 (57:16):
Yeah.

S3 (57:17):
Okay.

S6 (57:19):
Yeah. So let us know what your hobbies are.

S1 (57:20):
So when I say, let us know that we have
a new home, by the way, on the Internet. If you.
So I'm writing on Substack. I'm writing a weekly newsletter
called The Tortoise.

S6 (57:34):
Funnily.

S1 (57:34):
Enough, over on Substack. And that's where you're going to
find Shownotes for episodes moving forward. So there will be
a link in the app or whatever app you're listening
to this on. There'll be a link there that will
take you over to the tortoise on Substack. But it's
Brooke McAlary. Substack. Com is the name and. You can

(57:56):
just search for the episode number for each episode of
The Tortoise moving forward and you'll find all the show notes.
So obviously today's episode one, any links that we any papers,
any articles that we talk about will link to there?
But while you're there, let us know what your hobbies
are because Ben needs some new ones.

S3 (58:23):
Thank you. Yes.

S6 (58:26):
So final segment. I know you love the idea.

S1 (58:31):
Of segments.

S6 (58:33):
Is a brief check.

S1 (58:35):
In. So this is where we will talk about typically
about your.

S3 (58:41):
Uh.

S1 (58:42):
Movements towards a four day workweek.

S4 (58:43):
Okay. Yep.

S2 (58:44):
So this is the regular check in part. Yeah.

S3 (58:46):
Okay.

S1 (58:47):
But we're not going to do that because.

S6 (58:49):
We've already done that today.

S1 (58:50):
And you're now going to ask me.

S6 (58:53):
About my.

S4 (58:55):
My running.

S2 (58:56):
Like a well oiled machine. So one so beginning of
the year, four day work week for me. One percenters
for you. Has the 1%. Movement going.

S6 (59:14):
Movement.

S1 (59:15):
It's going you know what? It's been a phenomenal. It's
had a phenomenal impact on.

S6 (59:24):
The way I spend my time.

S1 (59:27):
So I'm not going to kind of rehash it all here.
We spoke about it a little bit on the last
couple of episodes of the Slow Home podcast. So if
you haven't listened to those, you can just go back
a couple of episodes. Same feed in the same feed.

S4 (59:42):
Same feed.

S1 (59:43):
Take a listen to those. But I also wrote quite
a lengthy post about it.

S6 (59:48):
On The.

S1 (59:49):
Tortoise that you can go and read. But essentially.

S6 (59:52):
It's.

S1 (59:54):
Using the idea of 1% as a tool. So either 1%
of our day being 15 minutes roughly of our day,
what can I do for 15 minutes that will be
values aligned that will make me feel better, that will
move me a step closer towards, you know, a goal
or something that I'm working towards. That's one way of

(01:00:15):
using it. The other way of using the 1% is
what is something that I can do that will improve
or change or grow. An area of my life by 1%,
you know, and that can be something tiny, that can be, um,
you know, making that small extra effort in whatever area

(01:00:36):
it is in life, a relationship, work, creativity, play health,
and just embracing the idea of continuous, gradual, slow and
steady improvement.

S6 (01:00:49):
So that's it in a nutshell. You can hear Joey
snoring behind me, and it's been phenomenal. So I.

S1 (01:00:57):
Every morning when I wake up.

S6 (01:00:59):
I.

S1 (01:01:00):
Write in a log book. It's something that Austin Kleon
writes about and I have copied. And essentially I go
over the day before and I look at the day before.

S6 (01:01:09):
I know what he's really going for it. I look
at the day before.

S1 (01:01:13):
And I think about what 1% I have attempted or
I have managed, you know, and it might be something like.

S6 (01:01:22):
Stretching in the morning.

S1 (01:01:23):
To me, that's a 1% improvement in the way that
I feel during the day.

S6 (01:01:28):
Physically, it can.

S1 (01:01:29):
Be journaling, It can be taking the extra time to
sit with the.

S6 (01:01:33):
Kids when.

S1 (01:01:33):
They go to bed. It can be taking the dogs
for a walk. It can be literally 15 minutes spent exercising.
It can be 15 minutes spent weeding the garden. And
I just make a note of all of those things.
And two things have happened. I think I'm looking for
more opportunities to make those tiny shifts that make no.

S6 (01:01:52):
Material.

S1 (01:01:53):
Difference to my output, but make a huge difference over
the course of a week or a month or a year.

S6 (01:01:58):
Absolutely.

S1 (01:01:59):
So I'm looking for opportunities to do it. But I'm
also seeing that I've been doing lots of 1%.

S6 (01:02:05):
Anyway anyway.

S1 (01:02:06):
And that is empowering. Yeah, that's going okay. I know
what's important to me and.

S6 (01:02:11):
I'm already.

S1 (01:02:13):
Living like it. That feels really.

S6 (01:02:15):
Great.

S1 (01:02:16):
Yeah. So I.

S6 (01:02:17):
Try every.

S1 (01:02:19):
Month to have a different.

S6 (01:02:20):
Focus.

S1 (01:02:21):
Just to see, you know, what I can do with
this 1%. And this month I've been focusing on getting
back to writing my middle grade kids novel.

S6 (01:02:33):
And it has been unbelievable the.

S1 (01:02:36):
Difference that the 1% has made. So for the first
couple of weeks of the month, I spent 15 minutes
after writing my log book in the morning, just working
through my old drafts, just looking at them, making notes, um,
noting down anything, you know, structural story stuff that needs
to happen. And then for the second half of the month,

(01:02:58):
I'm now able to outline. The entire book is really.

S3 (01:03:06):
Hard to concentrate with you snoring like that.

S7 (01:03:08):
Unedited.

S6 (01:03:10):
Yep, very candid. This is life. So, yeah, and.

S1 (01:03:14):
Spending that 15 minutes a day has allowed me to
now sit down and do more intensive work of outlining.
So it's more like 1%, but for a week. So
I'll sit down for maybe two hours on a Saturday
or a Sunday and work on it. And I'm at
the point now where I've started a brand new draft
and have a complete outline for the entire book, which

(01:03:35):
I've never had before.

S6 (01:03:36):
Incredible. And that's all from just to the 1%.

S4 (01:03:39):
Yeah.

S6 (01:03:39):
So I knew theoretically that.

S1 (01:03:45):
1% a day would make a difference. And it adds
up to way more than just the effort of a
singular day. It becomes very quickly, far greater than the
sum of its parts.

S6 (01:03:57):
I knew that.

S1 (01:03:57):
But seeing it in a very real sense has been
so cool. So, yes, it is going well. The 1%
is going well. And I think what I'll end up finding.

S6 (01:04:11):
A need for is tilting. Yeah.

S1 (01:04:15):
You know, because.

S6 (01:04:15):
You add add.

S1 (01:04:17):
15 1% to your day and all of a sudden.

S6 (01:04:19):
Your days just 15% Fuller Yeah. You know. Yeah.

S1 (01:04:22):
That's not what this is about. It's not about. Exponential growth.
It's just about a slow, steady commitment to.

S3 (01:04:31):
A thing.

S1 (01:04:32):
And in.

S9 (01:04:33):
That.

S1 (01:04:34):
In that capacity. It's been really genuinely powerful.

S6 (01:04:40):
And.

S2 (01:04:41):
It's amazing. Some may argue that the 1% is basically
a productivity tool.

S6 (01:04:47):
And you can argue that that's fine.

S1 (01:04:48):
I think it depends how what lens you look at
it through. But there is absolutely endless research that shows
that deep, concerted effort over short periods of time is
often far more productive.

S4 (01:05:03):
I would believe that.

S6 (01:05:04):
Then spending an eight hours a day, you know, half doing.

S4 (01:05:08):
Things well, my.

S2 (01:05:09):
Japanese lessons are that's my 1% at the moment is
all around just doing 15 minutes a day. And. Anymore
and you become so firstly so fatigued with it. Right?
And because it's new information, too. So it's sort of
like it's pretty intensive like what you're learning. But I

(01:05:33):
enjoy it now. Like, I look forward to that 15
minutes of of learning Japanese. I'm using Duolingo. I know
there's a number of apps out there, but that's the
one I'm using and I'm just having a lot of
fun with it. Yeah. I'd previously studied it at school,
so I came to it with quite a bit of
base knowledge. Yeah. And just. I look forward to in

(01:06:00):
12 months, seeing.

S6 (01:06:03):
Where you're at with where I'm at? Absolutely. Yeah.

S1 (01:06:07):
And I think that would be a fantastic measure of
the benefits of the 1% of the 1%.

S7 (01:06:13):
Yeah.

S6 (01:06:14):
So put a note in your diary. We're coming back.

S3 (01:06:18):
Yeah.

S1 (01:06:19):
You know, beginning of next year to see how your
Japanese is.

S3 (01:06:21):
Hey.

S6 (01:06:23):
Very good. So I think that's that's sort of it
for our first episode of The Tortoise. If you haven't.

S1 (01:06:32):
Yet subscribed, if you found your way here on a
podcast app. Uh, make sure you hit subscribe. This is
the same feed as the Slow Home podcast. So if
you were a previous subscriber and you've noticed us pop
up and you're like, What the heck is this? We've
renamed the feed so that you won't have lost access
to our 350 past episodes. So you can go back

(01:06:53):
and take a listen to those. And if you haven't
yet signed up to receive the tortoise letters, they go
out every Friday at this point, Australia time.

S6 (01:07:04):
And you head over to Substack.

S1 (01:07:06):
And add your name to those. There is also an
option to become a paid subscriber and for that you
it's $5 a month or $50 a year. You also
get access to workshops that will.

S6 (01:07:19):
Run roughly every.

S1 (01:07:21):
Quarter. So 3 or 4 a year. I've just wrapped
up the first workshop, which went for three weeks and
it was all about values, how to identify your values
and then how to use them to help you make decisions.
So if that's something that you're interested in, you can
sign up for $5 for the.

S6 (01:07:38):
Month, get access to that straight.

S1 (01:07:40):
Away. But otherwise, for the Friday letters, it.

S6 (01:07:43):
Is completely free. And I would love you to come
over there and join us. We've got a really beautiful community.

S1 (01:07:48):
That's that's starting to spring up around our conversations.

S6 (01:07:54):
We have a chat every Friday afternoon. Yeah. So come
and join us please. Brookman gallery.substack.com.

S2 (01:08:08):
What's the collective noun for a group of tortoises? Oh,
I don't know. That'd be funny. Call that community.

S6 (01:08:16):
I think we looked at that at some point, and
it wasn't great. I don't know what it was.

S1 (01:08:21):
We could call it a plod.

S6 (01:08:22):
A plot of tortoises.

S2 (01:08:23):
A plot of tortoises. Love it. Just a quick favor,
if you like. We're not sure about the discoverability of
the show as we've changed from Slow Your Home to
the tortoise. What really helps with that is if you
leave a rating and or a review on. Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

(01:08:46):
or your favorite podcast platform. That just means that we're
more likely to be searched and people find us through
those apps if you if we have some current ratings
and reviews. So it would be great if you've got
the time to leave us a quick rating and review, please.

S6 (01:09:07):
Until next time. And at this point, we're hitting monthly episodes.

S1 (01:09:12):
It's part of our commitment to slow and steady this year.

S6 (01:09:16):
That feels doable.

S1 (01:09:17):
So we will be back with you the third Thursday
of April.

S6 (01:09:23):
Until then, take good care.